FBI's Most Wanted Con Artist: How To Get Insanely Rich

Matthew Cox
I was on the most wanted list for the FBI, the secret Service, and the US marshals. And I've just stolen eleven and a half million dollars while on federal probation. Like, it's not gonna end well for me. I've had 27 driver's licenses issued to me in seven different states. She goes, I open up a popsicle box that had 30 or $40,000 in it in cash.

And I was like, oh, yeah, okay. There's some problems. I do call the FBI agent. She's saying, look, you come, you cooperate, you'll get like, seven years. The moment the FBI came looking, they all buried me.

Graham Stephan
For those unfamiliar with you, you were sentenced to 26 years for bank fraud, mortgage fraud, identity theft, passport fraud. I thought this was very interesting. You were called the Bonnie and Clyde of mortgage fraud. What's also very interesting, FBI's most wanted and on the run for years. Yeah, that's not true.

No, no. What is true? That's Danny Jones, by the way. Really? Yeah.

Matthew Cox
And it's been everywhere where everybody uses it now. Yeah. How did he come up with that then? Well, because I was number one on the Secret Service's most wanted list. And so when he did the title to the first video I did, he put number one on the FBI or something like that.

Or FBI's number one, you know, whatever, most wanted, wanted or something. And I called him up and I said, hey, bro, that title's not wrong. And he goes, nah, it's okay. It's clickbait. Nobody.

His title doesn't mean anything. Just get people to click. And I go, yeah, but it was the Secret Service. He goes, nobody knows that the Secret Service even has the most wanted list. And he's like, I got this.

And I was like, okay, I just don't want you to think that. I don't want people to think that I said that. Like, was I. Was I on the FBI's most wanted list? Yes, there's probably a thousand people on that list, you know?

Was the FBI looking for me? Yes, but I was number one on the secret services most wanted list. So unfortunately, for some reason, I had spragging rights or something, you know, to be number one. But nobody even knows that they exist. I tend to agree with them from an audience standpoint.

Graham Stephan
Sometimes you have to go with the term that's a little more well known for SEO purposes. Well, it definitely worked for them. Yeah. And then everybody's jumped on it. And then after, like, the third video, I got tired of correcting people.

Jack Selby
But you were FBI's most wanted on the most secretary. Okay, so I was on the most wanted list for the FBI, the Secret Service, and the US marshals. But I'm saying I wasn't number one. Like, Danny's, I think, says, like, he was the number one. Like, that's Osama bin Laden.

Matthew Cox
You know, like, I'm not. You're not Osama bin Laden? No. So you could have taken his identity, though. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So you committed essentially fraud. A lot of it. What exactly is fraud?

Jack Selby
For those that don't understand? I mean, really, fraud is anytime you lie, you lie to obtain something falsely. Right? For the most part. It's like you go in, you apply for a loan or a credit card, and you lie about it.

Matthew Cox
You lie about something on your application. Either it's your name, your Social Security number. Typically what people do is they just lie about, like, their income, you know, oh, I made. They'll say they made 200,000, when really they made 120 because they want to be able to get this $40,000 credit card or they want to get this $100,000 car. They don't, you know, they don't actually qualify for.

So typically that's it. But, I mean, fraud could be anything. You're lying to obtain something. How is it different from a scam? If someone says, that's a scam, it sounds like a fraud is almost the same thing.

Yeah, scam, fraud, scheme. Although scheme's not really. It seems like it's a bad word. It's not. You could have an investment scheme, and it's perfectly legal.

Jack Selby
And when did you first commit fraud? The first loan I did. So I became a mortgage broker. I genuinely was broke. Like, Ford Motor credit is looking for my car.

Matthew Cox
I'm almost a month behind on my mortgage, and I had just become a mortgage broker. What year was this? I want to say this was 99. So had two or three customers. As a mortgage broker, you get borrowers.

They're looking for houses. This woman had come in, she wanted to borrow money to buy a house. So I said, okay. I took an application on her. I got her w two s, her pay subs.

I got her verification of rent, verification of deposit for her down payment, everything. Put it together in a file, gave it to my. My manager because she reviewed everything before we sent it off to underwriting so that the lender would review it. And she looked through the whole thing and she took one page out and closed it. And I was like, what's going on?

And she goes, the verification of rent on your customer she's been 30 days late in the last two years, which that's a deal killer. So no bank wants to lend somebody who's been 30 days late on their rent, because you're probably going to be 30 days late on your mortgage, if not more. My manager actually pulled out a whiteout. The old whiteouts, where they go, she was like, a bottle of whiteout. You know, it wasn't like the stick.

And she said, if I was you, I would white out the 30 day late. Make a copy of it, stick it in the file, send it to underwriting. They'll never catch it. This is my manager. So it sounds like she had been doing this for a while.

Yeah, she had. And I can certainly say she had, because she ended up, you know, getting indicted. She and her husband got indicted. And what about all of the other mortgage brokers at that office, at that firm? I think to a degree, they may have been doing a little here.

There are some people who will, you know, they'll. Oh, I massaged it a little bit. And usually, you know, brokers will tell you, like, let's say a verification of employment. You know, they might say, well, this person worked for a year and a half, went and worked for somebody else for three weeks, quit there, and then went to work for somebody, the same company they're working for right now. So it's like, doesn't look good that they've got three jobs in two years.

So they'll remove the one job and just change the numbers so that there was. They jumped from the year and a half job to the last six month job, and they missed that one job. Does that make sense? Yeah. And that's fraud as well.

It's fraud. Cause you're lying because you have to give all the information to the underwriter to determine whether they're gonna lend the money or not. Do you think she would have been disappointed in you, your superior, if you didn't wipe that out? No, I don't think she cared, to be honest. She was.

Jack Selby
It was just a suggestion. Yeah, it was just a suggestion. Would she get a little bit more, maybe, like a performance bonus, if her office issued a certain amount of loans? And, like, your loan kind of helps boost those numbers. Yeah, but honestly, this loan was like nothing.

Matthew Cox
It was like a 50, $60,000 loan. So she was just trying to. Let's just scoot this forward. This is no big deal. Let's just planting a seed.

Yeah. And honestly, she was really. This is actually. She actually wore a wire on me, but the first time I got in trouble was because of her. Her name's Gretchen.

To exclude that completely, you know, she was just really very much kind of a jerk. She was a jerky, very pushy, very pushy person. So, you know, when she did it wasn't like, listen, Matt. She was like, this is what I do. She's.

I white it out and put it in there, and boom, it'll be fine. And I was like, oh, that's fraud. That's fraud. I could get. I could go to jail.

And she goes, nobody's going to jail. She's. The worst that'll happen is they'll deny it. You can blame it on your customer. She goes, and the worst that would happen if they thought you were involved is they'd fire you.

She says, nobody's calling the FBI. And I was like, oh, I don't know. She's like, do what you want. Nobody's looking for my car. And I was like, okay.

And I did it, and I was terrified. But it went through. And what was that feeling like when it went through? Was it exhilarating? Oh, my God, it was so good.

It was such a thrill. How many times have you had a customer that you didn't know if the loan was going to close? And you know. You know that feeling at closing? Everything's falling apart.

It's chaotic. And then they sign and you walk out, out with that check, and it's a done deal. You're like, oh, my God. Like, I pulled it off closing escrow. I always feel like something's gonna happen in between.

Graham Stephan
It's always something. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And from that moment, did you think, okay, this is something that I could repeat doing? Or do you think, okay, this is just like a one off?

Matthew Cox
Sure. When I white it out, I'm thinking that. But before that loan even closed, like, the next guy that had come in, he had a w two, he made like, 55,000, but if he made 59,000, he could get the loan. So what do you do? I changed the 59,000 to 62,000 or whatever.

I changed it to tell the customer. This or just do it in the back end. No, if I. In that case, I didn't. And the reason I didn't most of the time, if it was something like, I changed your w two, I don't want you to know.

I want you to deny it. Because what if you get a call from the lender somehow and you go, oh, my gosh, the broker did it. I told him not to do it or I don't know. I want you to just say. What?

Huh? That's. That's crazy, that I don't know what that is. I didn't do that. Then I.

If the lender calls me and says, listen, we got a w two here that says $62,000, and your customer says that they didn't give it to you, I'm like, are you serious? Are you telling me that my customer changed the w two? My God, he looked me right in the face. I can't believe that guy. Well, I'm not going to close that loan.

Like, what am I going to do? I'm not going to say, you got me? Of course not. He gave it. I have no incentive to commit fraud for this guy.

I'm making $3,500. So what are they going to do? They don't know. They're probably not going to fire me. Now, he didn't say I did it.

He just doesn't know what happened. In that case, yes. Now, if it was another, let's say. Let's say you came in, and I always use this as an example. I had somebody come in one time, he and his wife gave me w two s, but literally, they were copies.

And if you looked at it, like, you could see the staple mark was in the exact same spot on both copies of the w two. Like, the smudge was the same. As soon as I picked them up, it was like, hold it up to the light and you go. You do this in front of them? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I'm like, huh? Like, nothing's changed except for their names and Social Security numbers. And they are wavy, like, you could tell they've been copied. They glued them on. They're crooked.

And I'm like, huh, look, I like where your head's at, obviously. What, do you own this business? What? No, no. I work for.

I'm like, no, I understand you've been to a couple places. You've been turned down, but obviously you own this business. And they're like, um. I'm like, look, let me explain. I show them what I've seen, what I can.

It's obvious it's the same w two, and it's fraud. I'm like, look, I'm gonna get you the loan, but you gotta be honest to me, with me. I'll fix these. Like, they made the exact same thing, same withdrawals, same Social Security withholdings, everything. I'm like, look, I'll fix it, but if somebody's, somebody's gonna call the employer and it was like, aaa towing or something.

I said, so what's going on? And the guy was like, yeah, I own it. I go, yeah, well, somebody calls. Are they gonna, who's answering? Oh, no, no, my mom's gonna answer.

I said, okay. I pick up the phone call. Phone rings. Hello? I go, hi, is this aaaa towing?

Oh, aaa towing. And he's like, oh, man. I'm like, okay, I'll call back. And I hang up and he's, oh, I'll talk to her. I'll talk to her.

Okay. So the next day I call back, hello? Hi, is Jim there? Oh, triple a towing. I'm sorry, it's triple a towing.

I called by the third time. I said, you know what? I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna go get a, like, I'm just gonna go get a cell phone and set it up myself. You know, I still wanna close a loan. The guy was doing like a $200,000 loan.

I'm gonna make like six grand, you know, on a, on a broker fee, like, pull, let's say 4000. Then I'm gonna charge like two points on the back end. So I go, make six or $9,000. Like, I want your loan to close. I just don't want to get caught in underwriting.

So in that case, I have to tell him, right? He knows. He knew it was a fraud coming in. So in that case, I would tell him, but he's in on it. There's no incentive for him to say I did anything.

Jack Selby
So you went out and you bought this fake phone, essentially, and then set up a voicemail or something. So if the lender ever wants to check on this person's work, then there's no issue there. Although, you know what? Before we go into that, we got to do some quick math here, because the less money your business spends, the more money you get to keep. But the thing is, with higher costs and borrowing, distribution, labor and materials, everything is costing more.

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Jack Selby
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Graham Stephan
And now let's get back to the episode. So you went out and you bought this fake phone, essentially, and then set up a voicemail or something. So if the lender ever wants to check on this person's work, then there's no issue there? Oh, yeah, bro, it's way worse than that. There used to be something called the business directory that lenders would check with the business directory.

Matthew Cox
This is 20 years ago. This is back when they had yellow Pages. You don't even know what the Yellow Pages is. Do you know what the yellow Pages is? That's like the phone book, right?

There you go. All right. Nice. 25 years on it. I've heard about it.

Yeah. So you could go on the Internet and you could put your business phone number in the yellow pages and you had to fill out a form and everything. And then they would check into it. So if you had the tax id number. Correct.

And that your business phone number was listed with them and that tax id number could be verified, they would put you in the business directory. So now if the lender looks you up, it says this is a legitimate business. And then if they check with the w two. So let's say they go to the. They go to Sunbiz Dot gov and they check your business.

The tax id number is the same, too. That's on the w two. That would verify that this is a real business. Then they would call to verify. And if they called the number, I pick up the number like they're not even questioning it.

They know it's a legitimate business. It's in the business directory. The tax id number is the same. The address shows up. That's on the w two is all legit.

So I answer the phone, you know. Hey, triple a. Tony, how can I help you? Hi, is Jimmy. We need to talk to somebody about Jimmy.

He works there? Yeah, he works here. Who's this? You know. And you just have a conversation with him?

Yeah, I'm his manager. Oh, you have an HR department? No, bro, we have, like, less than 15 people here. It's just basically, me and my wife own the place, you know, have a conversation with each other. He's so good at this, though.

Graham Stephan
Cause Jack and I were talking, like, your level of confidence is through the roof. I think if you put me in that situation, I would freeze. I'd panic. I would just get, like, antsy and feel like, oh, they're on to me. And you'd be shocked.

Matthew Cox
You'd be shocked how? Listen, most of the time, if I didn't, if I got uncomfortable, I just stopped talking. Because I think that when you get nervous, when I get nervous, I tend to talk. Right? I send it.

But in those cases, I would think, you know, as a salesperson, I would think, you know, you make your pitch and you shut up. I had a broker one time that literally would came to me one time. He's like, hey, man, can you pitch these guys? They're asking questions. This, that.

I was like, yeah, sure. No, not pitch them, but disclose to them. You know, all the disclosures. You know, the insurance, you know, disclosures. And you have all these anti coercion disclosures.

So I went in and I disclosed to him, like, oh, this is your anti coercion. We didn't force you to get insurance through this company. This is your insurance saying that you have insurance. Insurance on your home. This is, you know, I go through and flip, flip, flip.

I go through the whole thing and they're like, and, you know, this is your truth in lending. This is how much you're going to make. This is how much the, uh, the adjustable rate is that, bob, you go through the whole thing and then the guy's like, okay. And he starts signing. I.

I just disclosed. He's signing. We're good. That's it. I'm not talking again.

I'm just like, right here, right here, right here. That's all I say. The broker goes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I wouldn't. Don't even worry about the adjustable rate.

Like, it'll be, uh. We're gonna refinance it in two years. I was like, who the fuck said, who said adjustable rate? Why would you say adjustable rate? And the guy's like, well, how much is the adjustable?

What does it adjust to? What does that mean? He just signed. He's signing. What are you doing?

Like, you can only lose the sale. We've got the sale. He's signing. He's gonna close in a week. So I just know that you go in if you're opening.

If I was opening, let's say a bank account in somebody's name. Like, I would go make a fake id and go open up a bank account in the name of Brandon Green. I go in, give them the id, walk in, sit down. They would pull up Brandon Green. I've got a Social Security number for him, everything.

Not a stolen identity. It's a. It's a synthetic identity. So let's say they pull them up and they would go. And I've had this happen where they went, huh?

You know, you don't want to hear, huh? And I just sat there. I mean, everything in me is, like, running, get out of the bank, run to your car, get out of the. You know. But I didn't.

I just sat there and they're like, huh? I didn't say, you know, what's going on? What's wrong? I was like. I was like, everything okay?

And she was like, yeah, it's weird. It says, fraud alert. It says, you've never had a bank account? Have you ever had a bank account? I said, yeah, with my ex wife.

Like, I think we opened it, like, maybe five or ten years ago, but I pretty sure she closed it. And she's looking at me, and I'm looking at her. What do I mean? You know, I don't want to keep running my mouth. I'm just going to get myself in trouble.

I don't know what she's looking at. And then she goes and does this with the id to see the hologram. I made the id. So I'm like, oh, my God, what is she doing? And she goes, hold on.

Gets up, goes in, goes across the bank, talks to her manager. Her manager comes out. She holds up the thing, looks at it, looks over at me, says something. They have a conversation. She goes, yeah.

Walks over, sits down. She says, okay, do you want a gold plan or the silver or the. I was like, I don't know, whatever. You know, whatever. And I pick an account or a plan that I want from my checking account.

She opens it. I never talk again. I sign the documents, I get my stuff. I leave. Probably should have panicked.

And what? Felt panicky. But what choice do I have? I can't run out of the bank. I'm done.

If I run out of the bank, I'm just screwed. My car is parked in the parking lot. They're gonna know something's wrong. I have to just sit here. Did you ever lie or cheat as a child?

Graham Stephan
Like, maybe in a school test or, like, was there any indication that maybe you had a leaning towards doing something that was maybe on the edge? No. My mom said I was a good boy.

Matthew Cox
No, I don't think so. I don't think so. Listen, I was almost 30 the first time I ever committed fraud. Like, I got in a car, couple tickets, think I had to go to traffic school one time when I was, you know, in my teens. But, you know, I mean, I.

First of all, I was already had a problem anyway. I had a learning disability. I was going. I had to go to schools for kids with learning disabilities. So I wasn't in, like, a normal high school or a junior high.

It was always, I was always going to these schools that, you know, there's 20 kids in the whole school. I mean, that's a problem in and of itself. But the schools are so small, and there's no cheating. Like, it's not like I'm cheating. It's not like I'm stealing anything.

I was raised upper middle class. My parents had money, so I don't think there was any reason for it. And I don't think I would either. Like, I don't think I would be interested in picking up your Rolex. You know, going into, like, I've got a buddy who's like, oh, I would go into my buddy's houses and, like, say, I have to go to the bathroom, like, meet some guy.

You hang out. Like it. You're 15 years old. Hey, come to my house. Go to his house and say, hey, I gotta go to the bathroom.

Sure, it's in there. Walk in, and then swipe, like, a watch or some jewelry or something, and then leave. Then stay there the whole time for another 2 hours, play some video games, and then leave with the watch. Like, I would. I would.

I wouldn't do that. You know, I wasn't interested in doing that. You know, I was struggling just to get through life in high school, you know, just to graduate high school. And then I went to college. You know, it's interesting.

Jack Selby
Cause I feel like a lot of people put in that situation where you're struggling to make the payments on your car and you're barely living, right, and you're very impoverished, and you get put in a situation where all you have to do is do something like a little bit of a whiteout on something that seems like it's completely harmless, and you can make $3,500, and that's the world to you. I think a lot of people would. Do that, and I would say that most people in that situation would do it, but I've. I've also had those brokers, like, when I opened a brokerage business. And I had, whatever, around twelve guys working there.

Matthew Cox
Like, I had a guy he had worked for, like, I forget, like, Lehman brothers or, you know, Bernice or. What is it? What is it? Bear Stearns. Bear Stearns or something.

Like, he had been in a program. You have to work there for like, two years. They train you for two years, and then you can quit. If you quit before that, you owe them money. I don't know if you know that you owe them, like, whatever, 60 grand or something.

So he waited the two years, quit, and came to work for me. But after about three months of seeing people do things, he said, yeah, I can't work here. So it's like, he was like, that's what he should have done, right? That's what I should have done. But I didn't.

Graham Stephan
How did it progressively get worse from doing whiteouts? He's just gentle massaging arrogance. You know what I'm saying? Like, I. It's funny.

Matthew Cox
Cause I tell my wife, this is like. Cause I'm super. I'm super cocky, super arrogant. Like, just narcissistic. Like, just love to talk about myself.

Like it's an issue. Like, it's an issue that I notice when I'm talking to someone. I'll stop myself periodically and be like, bro, shut up. You keep. You know, this guy's trying to tell you something you interrupted with your.

With one of your stories. Like, he give a fuck about your story. He's trying to tell you something. It's something that I'm conscious of, but I wasn't earlier in life. And I always tell my wife that every bad decision I've ever made was based on arrogance.

I didn't want to lose my car because I'm going to have to go to my dad and say, dad, I need you to give me $1,000. Cause my $500 car payment is behind two months. I've got to pay it. They're going to take my car. I didn't want to say that, or I'm going to lose my house or whatever.

I'm going to lose my townhouse or whatever. I was embarrassed. I didn't want to be embarrassed in front of my father. So what percentage of your loans that you did at that first firm you think were fraudulent? What percentage?

Yeah, almost every one of them. At the first place I. First place I worked was called Eagle lending. It got shut down by the department of banking, Finance, and the FBI, I think has nothing to do with me. You know, one day we showed up and they're locking the doors, they actually, they lock the doors.

And me and another broker, I never talked about this, me and another broker actually had to climb up on the roof of the business and slide a window open that like never locked or something, or I had unlocked it, I forget what happened, but I slid it open. We stole all the files. Like we went from dead. We got all her files, all my files and then a bunch of files from other people and then we went to another brokerage business and closed them there. And then I opened up my own, you know, I don't typically get into all that, but I eventually, after a few months I opened my own place.

I hired like twelve guys, you know, and because back then in Florida if you had a, you were a mortgage broker for dollar 250 extra you could become a brokerage business owner. You know, unlike in real estate, you have to wait a few years, you have to take a hold the brokers test, which is not easy. Back then you didn't have to do anything to become a, be able to hire basically salespeople. But before we get into that, AI actually might just be the most important new computer technology out there. I mean we literally use it on every single episode of the Iced coffee hour.

Jack Selby
And people ask me, they say, Jack, what do you use it on? And guess what, I'm not going to tell you, but billions of dollars are being invested, so you better buckle up. The problem, however, is that even though billions of dollars aren't being invested, AI still needs a lot of speed and processing power. So how do you compete without these costs spiraling out of control? Well, it's funny you ask that, Graham, because I'll tell you exactly how it's time to upgrade to the next generation of the cloud, Oracle cloud infrastructure, or our sponsor OCI.

Graham Stephan
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Once again, that's oracle.com iced. Oracle.com iced with the link down below in the description. Thank you so much. And now let's get back to the episode. So how much were you making at the end of that that first firm.

Matthew Cox
Maybe ten or $12,000 after they take their money, probably was making eight to $12,000 for six months. But within six months, it's over. And listen, the first month, I closed, like, four loans, which was unheard of. Like, we were generating our own leads. It's not like, really good money, too.

Graham Stephan
Like 1999, right? It was. It was great. I was thrilled. So you can imagine how I felt, you know, six months or eight months later, when that whole thing fell apart, I was crushed.

Matthew Cox
Then they kept all the files. We break in, we get the files. Hate to say break in. I slit the window where my files. I fell, so I took the files.

We closed those. We made like, 20 or 30 grand because we got very little money. Eagle was paying like, 70%. I found out then, most places give you 40 or 50%, but they give you leads. Eagle didn't do that.

So we closed those. They still took 40 or 50%. I got a chunk of money. I opened my own place, hired a bunch of guys that doesn't make a lot of money right away, but within a few months, it starts making money. Especially when these guys, you start to.

When they start to realize pretty much anybody that walks in the door, I'm going to make sure they get a loan. Like, unless you're in bankruptcy or you claim bankruptcy six months ago, I'm going to do anything I have to. To get you a loan. I have to stay afloat, and after a few months, that place starts to make good money. Is that from word of mouth?

Graham Stephan
People saying, hey, I went to this place, I got a loan. Yeah. Does anybody question if they come in and they, like, they have a low income, and they say, I want a $300,000 loan. But you change the numbers without them knowing. Do people question?

Matthew Cox
No, they don't. Oh, they got it. They just don't know. No, because they feel like they should be able to get a loan. Right.

Like, I don't know why my credit union turned me down and the bank turned me down, but my real estate agent said, should go to you. You know, it was always bothered me, too, because the real estate agents would send me stuff, especially. It's funny, this one woman, Lynn Cadella, this chick, I must have done two or $3 million worth of her loans. She's a real estate agent, and I'm doing. I mean, I got her into a ton of property that she could not qualify for, and she would send me people, but she.

She would send her customers to, like, her, good customers that had good jobs. She sent them to. Oh, I send them to Brad. Because Brad does conventional loans, and he can get them good rate. But if the guy is horrific, and Brad turns him down and his credit union can't do him, and he's been to three other.

You gotta go see Matt. So. Well, I'm thinking I should get Brad's stuff too, right? That's what I think. I'm only getting the crap.

And she was like, yeah, but he gets really good rates. I'm like, yeah, but I'm signed up with countrywide and all those. I'm up to same lenders. I can get them that rate. Keep in mind, she knows all her loans are fraudulent.

She knows that. Not just that. She's a real estate agent. She had been doing it, like, 20 years. So she's buying a duplex.

So you'll appreciate this. Sure. That's true. Oh, my God. So she had, like, a house, her own personal residence, right?

So when you pull her credit, she's got, like, a. Keep in mind, these are 20 year old prices, so it's not like that. There'd be a million now, but she would have, like, a. A $250,000 loan on her house, her personal residence, a single family residence. I would say that was a quadplex.

And I would change her, like, schedule, ease on her taxes. Or I bring her last two years taxes, and I bring them to a bookkeeper who would change them. So we'd say that the house she's living in now is a quadplex. Then I would turn around. She would be buying, let's say, a duplex.

I must have bought twelve duplexes within about a month for her. All of them owner occupied. So she's getting 95% to 100% loan to value. So she's bringing, let's say she's bringing for $100,000 duplex. Let's say it's a 90%.

For the sake of argument, we jack up the purchase price to cover the whole thing. And then she'd bring $10,000 for her closing, for her down payment, which she doesn't need, because the 90% covers it. And then we would get that money cut back to a construction company for work that had supposedly already been done. Does that make sense? So now she gets her money right back.

So we just turned a 90% LTV into, like, 100% to 105%. And if we could get the value, I'd have her walk away with more than her down payment. I mean, I had people that would come with 20,000 down and walk away with 50. And the more you do that, the more the area, if you stay within a certain area, it keeps going up and up and up. She's a real estate, she's a real estate broker.

Actually, she's a real estate broker. I had another woman named Kelly, Kelly Bailey. Same thing. Millions of dollars of loans. Lawyers did loans for lawyers did a loan for a doctor.

Graham Stephan
How do they justify it? Like the real estate agent does she just feel, I know the area, I know what I'm doing is I'm going to make shady. Yeah, exactly. Thanks are so harsh. They don't, you know, it's just the banks and I'm going to make the payments.

Matthew Cox
The fact that she doesn't actually qualify for the loan, you know, doesn't, that didn't affect her. As far as I know, she made all the, all those. But wouldn't you have a disproportionate amount of borrowers foreclose as opposed to other brokers? They didn't track it back then. Keep in mind that.

Jack Selby
Oh, so it was just like out in the ether. So as soon as you give it. To closer, within 30 days, those things are being. So let's say I close with, there's a company called not household bank. Well, there was a household bank, but there was one called, let's say, mortgage warehouse.

Matthew Cox
It was a lender. Let's say we close a loan with mortgage warehouse. Within two, three weeks. They've already packaged it together with a $2 million bundle and they've sold it to household bank. Or they've sold it to Wells Fargo or countrywide.

It's just a mortgage and a package of 20 other mortgages, or 150 other mortgages, which honestly, within three months gets sold again. Within six months it gets sold again. And they didn't track it. No, they don't track anything. They don't, you know, now mortgage brokers have a specific number that stays with them and they track it.

They didn't do that then. So then you decided to create your own brokerage, right? And then you hired out twelve or so people. Right. To do loans.

Jack Selby
What did that look like for you? And did you try to instill these values in the other brokers? Like, okay, well, just in case. No, it was a millimeter. It was a mill.

Matthew Cox
Like, I mean, I, like, I guys would come in and they'd say, listen, bro, I got a loan, okay? The guy's got 720 credit scores. He currently owns his own house. I'd be like, okay, is he self employed? Employed?

He's employed. But he doesn't quite. His debt to income rate's like 70%, but he's renting the place. He's going to rent the place out that he buys, but he doesn't have the down payment. Okay, well, here's what you need to first find out.

And I'd be like, find out how much we can get it appraised for, find out what the rents are, find out, you know, and we go. I go through all the things that we need to know. Once they came back, I'd structure a way for that loan to get closed. You know, we can get him a 90% loan that will cover the entire thing. He's going to have to bring the down payment.

I'll get him the money back. If he can't come up with it, I'll bring the down payment. We have to close at my title, one of my title companies that we work with, because, let's face it, I don't want to. I'm not giving him the money to put in his bank account. That's actually part of the reason I ended up opening a bank like a start of my own.

It's not a real bank. You know, a bank, an online bank, because sometimes, you know, you have something called seasoning. Bank of America, if you're coming to them and you're buying a house and you're putting down 5% down payment, they want to see that it's been in the bank for 90 days. Because they don't want the seller to have given you the money, or they want to know. No, no, we need to see three months bank statements showing the money's been in your bank.

I'm not giving this guy, you know, 20 grand to sit in his bank. I don't know him, you know, so I can't do that. So what we would, we would figure out that we maybe we changed the. We changed the bank statements, you know, or we'd structure it in such a way that we could try and make it seem like he had a car that got sold and we'd had. And the money went straight into the.

Into escrow. Into the escrow account. Or, you know, it gets hard. So what we ended up. What I ended up doing was saying, look, I'm just going to create an online bank called.

We had a few of them, but one of them was bank of Ybor. So it was like bankofebor.com dot and I came up with bank statements, color bank statements, front and back. You have to trim them down. Bank statements are a little bit smaller to trim them down. I had to go make envelopes and the whole thing.

So I did that. And then you could go online and you could look. There was, it was only four or five pages, right? You can look, but it looked very official. It had a phone number and so they could call the phone number.

If they call the phone number, then it rings to one of my phones and then I answer the phone, you know, bank of VMoor, how can I help you? Or it would go to voicemail and the voicemail would say it would have had a little thing about, hi, you know, hey, this is bank of Ybor. We're a small local bank located in Bohr City, just outside of Tampa, Florida. You know, please, we're currently experiencing high caller volume. Blah, blah, blah.

Right. You don't know, like now you can't call anybody, right? But back then you could, and you'd leave a message. A small local bank that can't get to the phone call right now. Makes sense now if you can't say, it's a big bank.

So they would call, leave a message, or I'd answer the phone, I'd call them back and I would verify the money was in the bank. Typically we'd ask them to fax over a verification of deposit and I would verify whatever they told me. I wouldn't just say, oh, yeah, yeah, I do the whole thing. Like you type on the thing. Hold on a second.

What was the name? You know, and do you have the account number? Okay. Okay, that was what again? Hold.

Okay, I'm sorry, could you say it again? Okay. Uh, yeah, I, listen, I can't tell you what they have in the, but what they have in the bank, but I. In their bank account. But I can I, I can, you know, um, verify it.

If you can tell me. They're all says that their 90 day average is, you know, $27,250. That's it. You're good. Okay, thank you.

Click. How did you know they were calling for that? Did you have different phone numbers set up so that if someone calls on this number, that's this band I have. Like, I got like twelve phones. You have twelve phones.

Jack Selby
You keep track of them and like. A label of each. You just put on the back of it. You just put like, this is brand Brandon Green's phone. And you put a piece of tape.

Matthew Cox
So if I grab that phone, you just look at the back. Brandon Green, this is his work phone. Okay. Hi, express tax services, how may I help you? You know, or you, or you call, you know, Tracy, my secretary.

And Tracy. Tracy, she's like, oh, God, who is it? Brandon Green. It's his work. He works for such and such.

Okay. Hi, this is. And she answers. How did you find people that were okay with working with you on this, really? I mean, I told you, like, all the time.

I could only really think of one guy that wasn't okay with it very quickly. Look, do you have to pay more? It's, like, for these people, like. But I'm already paying a lot. You're getting 70%.

So we charge an application fee of, like, 325. Should probably be 600 now. Yeah, but dollar 325, application fee. So I get that, right? The house gets that.

And then we get 30% of. Of any fees that come in. So you get 70%. Nobody's paying 70%. They're paying 40%, 50%.

Most of our customers are coming from real estate investors or realtors, so. Realtors, real estate investors. And of course, you could do the cold call thing where you call, you know, the ads for people trying to sell their own house, and you just say, hey, a mortgage broker, can I come put a sign in the front yard just to make sure that whoever is buying your house is qualified. But let's face it, if you're a real estate agent and your customer's been turned down by three people, three banks, and then somebody at the brokerage business where you work says, listen, you need to call this guy. And you call me, and that thing closes two weeks later, and you're like, wow.

What happens the next time you have a loan? That's tough that, you know, this guy's got a problem. He's had four jobs. He's had this. He got turned down by his bank.

He wants to buy the house. My customer wants to sell the house. He didn't know if he can get qualified. You're going to be like, you don't call this guy. Cause you really haven't done anything.

You might think, I know something's fishy, but you're just a real estate agent. You didn't do anything. I just told him the guy's closed, like, three loans for me. I thought he was good. You know, if the FBI ever came and said, hey, why do you send this guy 25 people in the last six months?

You go, what are you talking about? I thought he was good. He's a great broker. Why? He's committing fraud.

Okay, well, I don't know that you got nothing that says, I know that. You don't have a text, you don't have a phone, call. You don't have anything, so you're going to send me people? And we had tons of people. Listen, it got so bad that other brokerage businesses in the area would call up and say, matt, can you come by the office?

We have a loan. I go, okay, stop by a couple hours later, what's up? They pull out the file, and they'd say, here's the problem. And I'd look through the file, and I go, okay, well, the property is three and a half miles from the closest comparable. That's.

It needs to be within. Supposed to be within half a mile. They'll go up to a mile, but after that, it gets to be a problem. All three of your comparables are 6 miles, 8 miles, 9 miles. Like, come on, what are you doing?

You're cherry picking the comps? Nobody's going to do this loan. The appraisal is bad is what I'm saying. And so I would say, okay, all right, well, give me the file, and I'll send you $500. You know, I try and do that, like, you know, a referral fee where you.

I'll give you a referral fee. No, we want to close it. It's a $400,000 loan. What are you talking about? Well, you can't close it, but then close it.

I do that. I try and get the loan, but if that didn't work out, then I would try and do well, then great, I'll tell you what's wrong. See if you can. See if you can fix it. Send me $1,000, whatever.

So I try and help them out like that. Maybe I'd make the w two s and pay stubs, charge them a grand. They're going to make seven or eight grand or ten grand, whatever their fee is for $400,000 loan. Give me, throw me a grand, I'll make some w two s, pay stubs. I'll even verify it for you.

Graham Stephan
How much are you making at the peak of working as a broker like that? See, as a broker, I don't think I was making that much. I think maybe 100, 200,000 a year. Like, I'm probably making ten or 15,000 doing that. Now, obviously that changes when I start committing fraud, because eventually I get caught.

Matthew Cox
So eventually what happens is my brokerage businesses, my broker brokerage business, and all these brokers are committing fraud. I had gotten married, I had a son. My wife does not want to work. You know, she wants to, she wants to be a stay at home mom. And I said, well, that's great.

But, well, how about this? We buy a bunch of rental properties. You can collect the rent from the rental properties, you can rent them out. You meet the maintenance guys, that sort of thing. She said, no problem.

So I get about 54, 55 rental units within about a year, all fraudulent. Like, she didn't have a job. And they're all in her name? Yeah. So we're bringing money, we're bringing 20, $30,000 to closing, walking away with 50, 60 grand so that we've got 20 or 30 in our pocket, so we can do some renovations, we rent out the properties.

Life's good, right? She's renting them out, she collects the rent. Things are good. Does she have any idea? Absolutely.

Jack Selby
So she knew it was all fraudulent? Yeah. And if you ask her, to this day, she'll say, I had no idea. She was a licensed mortgage broker, and we used to work at a bank. Got it.

Matthew Cox
Stop. Every application said she worked for some, I think. I don't know. What. Who'd I have her work for?

Somebody like, God, was it like. Like one of the businesses I created was express tax services. So, you know, she knew. And we actually have a good relationship right now. She sees this.

Luckily, she never watches my stuff because she gets infuriated. So she's not going to see this. So I can say it. Okay. Even if she did, she'd just call me up against, you scumbag.

She'd tell you I was a scumbag. You keep my name out of your mouth. So she's got all these loans, and we're buying them. Some of them, we're keeping them. Well, it turns out that they were buying places, renovating them, renting them out, and sometimes selling them, but sometimes keeping them.

And she's got like, 50 some odd units turned out that. Remember my old mortgage broker or my own manager, Gretchen. Gretchen had started her own company called creative financing. Creative financing brokerage business or something. Anyway, she and her husband.

So she and Pete had opened their. Had done this. And so what I did was I would go and buy a piece of property, and I would renovate it, and then I would sell it to my wife. At the time, she never took my last name. Our addresses were never the same.

Like, I made sure that we appear to be two completely separate entities. Right? So she doesn't have my last name. None of our jobs overlap. None of our addresses overlap.

So that. Because if you did that, then when you pulled her her credit, it would connect us. They'd say, oh, this person lived at a house here. With this guy Matt Cox, and he's the owner. Now, you don't want that.

Buy properties, renovate them, sell them to her. And the reason I did this is seasoning. I buy the property for $100,000, I renovate it for 50, and I can't refinance it. So the way people think, oh, you bought it for 100,000. Let's say it's a quadplex.

You bought a quadplex for $100,000. You renovated it for 50 grand. Now it's worth 250. So just refinance it. You can pull out your 150 that you have in it, plus 50 or 60 grand.

You're right. You can in a year, for about a year, they won't let you do it. But if I'm just some guy who bought the property, renovated, I can sell it to somebody for the full value and make my money. So that's what I would do. Buy the property, renovate it.

Now it's worth 200,000 or 250, whatever the appraised value is. I'd sell it to her for 230. She would bring $30,000 to closing, and she ends up with the property. Of course, the 30,000 is ours, so it doesn't matter. She ends up with the property, she rents it out, and that's it.

She's got it rented out. It doesn't seem like anyone suffering, though. What about taxes on that? Wouldn't you then be showing that you sold the property for a profit and have to pay taxes on that? I mean, you would, but I was actually audited one time, and I remember during this whole thing, I was audited at one point.

Keep in mind, too, she actually went, American Express tax business services. So American Express actually has a tax service company. We actually sent her there for, like, two or three days to be trained to keep the books. So we're also doing things like, see, this is why, I guess, in a way, this is bad that he's asking. Most people don't ask these questions.

Okay, so let's say I have. This is bad. Don't judge me, Jack. So let's say I have some group of Mexicans come and put a new roof on the house or on the quadplex, and they charge whatever prices back then. $5,000.

I would write. You write an initial check to them for, let's say, $2,500. So you would write, like, how can I put, let's say more like $900? So you put 900, you know, $900, but you don't put it all the way on the line, you put it farther back. And then, so you go.

And you go to give them the thing. You. Hey, you know what do you. Are you gonna deposit this? Like, are you gonna go cash it?

I can cash it. I got the cash right now. They go, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna cash it. I go, you want me to cash it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, well, here, sign the back of it to me. Write your, whatever, your, your whatever numbers you have for your license, your license, if they have a license, write your license number, whatever, your Social Security number, whatever. But right over all the. So that I can 1099 you at the end of the year. Yeah, yeah, no problem.

Roofer, these roofers and stuff. And, you know, they're not licensed, so they're never going to claim any of this money. So I can 1099 them. So I give them $900, take the, take the check, and I write $3,900 and then I go deposit it, comes out of my business account into my personal account, and it looks like he, I just wrote him a check for $3,900. And the next check I do the same thing, $500, $4,500, you know, $800, you know, $1800.

So I just write on the front of it, you know, whatever, $2,500. So if you're selling at 230, basically you're showing that you made no profit. On this, or maybe a little bit of profit. I don't mind paying a little bit of money. Yeah, you know, you're going to pay a little bit.

I mean, we were paying 510 thousand dollars, you know, every month. And, well, we're doing, you know, the quarterly withholding. You got a little account, you just keep putting the money in. At the end of the year. You paying 2020, 5000, $30,000.

Jack Selby
Do you think those guys ever got audited? No. And listen, I would 1099 them. We actually, one time for the full. Amount or for the, oh, you know.

Matthew Cox
The full amount, they would get a check for like $55,000. And I remember one time a guy called up, said, what is this, this thing you sent me? 55. I don't owe you $55,000. I go, no, no, no, no.

That's just for tax purposes, bro. That's, that's just the total of what we spent on the property for the renovation. Even though they only earned like $5,000. They have no idea. Like, they don't.

They're illegal and they don't claim. They've never claimed. So you're banking on them basically getting in 1099 and not doing anything with it. Sent out tons of them and got one or two phone calls questioning maybe one guy might have said, like, I don't remember it being that much. Like, well, are you gonna claim it?

I mean, you want me to go over the book? Nah, nah, nah. Don't worry about it. Of course, don't worry about it. You don't claim taxes.

Graham Stephan
But you. But you would send this to the IR's, yeah? Oh, yes, I'd send it IR's. So it's with the IR's. And he signed it.

Matthew Cox
He wrote his, his driver's license number on it, everything. I mean, let's face it, the guy is. That is an independent contractor's nightmare. Yeah, but did they ever get audited? Or, like, did they.

Not that I know of. Listen, I've done much worse than that. I sleep. I don't have a problem with that at all. But there's the thing, it would be tough for them to fight it with the IR's because the IR's is going.

To have never claimed taxes, and they're not going to fight it. They're illegal. Like, you're not even supposed to be here. They're not claiming taxes. First of all, if I told them, hey, I paid you 55,000, when in fact I only paid you 15,000, there's probably another 30 or 40,000 in, in 1099 coming to him, too.

What does it matter if you're not paying it on 50? It doesn't matter if you're not paying it on 100. You're just here to make money to send back to Mexico. Yeah, he probably doesn't even exist in the eyes of the IR's, right? Probably.

Graham Stephan
Probably not. Yeah. And if they, if they audited him, you know, by. Because they get all these 1099s with this Social Security number, then if they audited him, let's say, they'd say, hey, you owe $40,000. What does it matter if he owes 40 or if he owes 20?

Matthew Cox
He's not paying it. You know, he doesn't care. We never had that come back. Like, listen, I've been charged with almost everything, so that's the one thing, you know. Well, no, I was charged with money laundering, so I guess I would probably fall in.

Well, no, I guess it'd be tax fraud, too. Although, you know what? Before we go into that, I just want to say that overall, we talk a lot about investing on the channel. We talk a lot about business. But without exaggeration, investing has changed my life.

Graham Stephan
It's something that I got into when I was like 1819 years old. From that point forward, I started investing as much money as I possibly could. I found the financial independent retire early community. That got me into the whole mindset that you could make your money last a lifetime. You don't have to start with a lot, and as long as you invest consistently, as long as you do that for a long time, that'll turn into a substantial amount.

Like just investing $5 a day could leave you with a million dollars in like a few decades. I would say investing to me means more confidence in the future and I feel like I can provide more for my family. What family are you talking about, Jack? You're single with no kids. What family?

Jack Selby
Graham? I'm on Tinder. I'm working through this. Okay? But the point is, investing is really important.

And if you are investing, it's better to know what you're doing. And if you want to know what you're doing, the best resource is our sponsor, Yahoo. Finance. Honestly, without exaggeration, I've been reading Yahoo finance for years. I've come up with a lot of my video topics from Yahoo Finance.

Graham Stephan
I've quoted them in many of my videos. They're honestly just a fantastic resource to use if you just want to learn more about the market or just casually read to see what's going on day to day. So if you're interested, the link is down below in the description to visit Yahoo finance. I highly recommend it. And I'm so excited they're sponsoring today's video because they're just a place that I would read regardless.

So thank you so much, yahoo. Finance, for sponsoring today's video. And now let's get back to the episode. So when did things escalate from just like, you know, whiting out and being in and massaging some numbers in, um, in the loan documents to then creating fake people? This is one of the most fascinating things I think I've honestly ever, you.

Got caught in between, right? That's exactly what happened. That's what happened. Which is funny because by the way, this is vastly different than any other interview I've done because you are asking vastly different questions. Cool.

Matthew Cox
Like, this is going completely off the tracks compared to my normal spiel. Cool. What happened was, remember those loans that I bought, renovated and sold to my ex wife? I didn't do her loans at my company. Right.

I can't do that because I own the property. It's not an arm's length transaction. You know, it has to be an arm. Like they're like mister Cox, you own the property. You can't also do a mortgage for your borrower.

Okay. So I send her to Gretchen. Gretchen owns creative financing or creative mortgage brokers or whatever it's called. So I would prepare the whole package, give it to Gretchen, and we would close the loan. I give her a couple grand and the loan closes, and that's it.

So Kayla's got the house. She just borrowed 150 on this property, 190 on this one. Ends up being like three or four properties. Like half a million dollars. I think she ends up owing.

What ends up happening in the meantime, and this has been years, we've been, I've been in business a few years at this point, what ends up happening is Gretchen had done what's called a straw man scam with some guys. Some investors had come in, they bought a bunch of properties that could appraise for, you know, let's say a million dollars, but they were buying them for like 600,000. So they got a loan for like 900,000, pulled out 300,000, and they did this with five or six properties, right? So they end up making like a half a million. A million.

I don't know exactly what they made, but Gretchen did all the loans. These guys never even made the first payment. That's a first payment default, but it's the first payment default. They're going to invest it. I'm sorry.

Investigate it. So now I think it's up to a year. There's not even such a thing as first payment default. Now if you, it gets invest investigated if you don't make the first twelve months payments. So the FBI comes in and investigates it.

They say, you know, they realize, they look at the paperwork. It's a straw man scam. Like this person, it's. The w two s are fake. Everything's fake.

They go into Gretchen's office and they don't rate her office, but they show up with, give her the business card, the whole thing. And so she calls me and tells me that, hey, she's like, the FBI came by, you know, oh, my gosh, I went to her house. We all had a conversation. I was, oh, my God. You know, I'm just concerned she's in trouble.

No big deal. She says, can you refinance my house so I can pay an attorney? This attorney wants like 75 grand. I was like, um, yeah. I was like, yeah, but Gretchen, you don't have, you know, like you're cooking the books too.

You're claiming very little money. And she said, you know, look, I'm gonna give you w two s and pay stubs. I was like, okay. So she gives them to me. I put the loan through.

She gets 75 grand. She pays an attorney. First thing that attorney says is, you need to wear a wire on this guy. So. So she goes to the FBI, says, listen, here's three or four loans.

I think was three, three loans that he did for his wife. He said he wasn't married to her. All the w two s and pay subs are fake. So they set me up, and we meet at, like, a pizza place. And we sit down.

Cause she calls me up. She's like, oh, my God, I gotta meet you. The FBI is asking questions about you. We go. We meet, and I'm like, what's going on?

She's like, look, the FBI, they're asking all kinds of questions about Kayla, about you. And I go, oh, my God. You didn't tell them the w two s were fake, did you? You didn't tell them we were married. You didn't tell them, like, I just bury myself.

Graham Stephan
Keep in mind, did you have any idea she was trying to set you up? Like, is it ever a good idea if someone's like, hey, we gotta talk in person to check them for a wire? Not in my business, it's not. But, I mean, if you're just a regular guy, sure. But you know what I'm saying?

Matthew Cox
Like, I should, you know. And here's the thing. Look, could you have. Could you have checked, like, said, hey, I need you to, like, lift up your shirt a little bit. You know what I could have done?

Yeah. I could have just listened to my ex wife. Cause I didn't know anybody that had ever been arrested. Right? My ex wife is puerto rican, and she has family members that did ten years.

She knows people that have been arrested. She told me, don't go see them. Don't talk to them anymore. They're going to cooperate, and they're going to get you fucked up. And I was like, these are friends of ours.

This is my friend. We went to Puerto Rico together. We've been on vacation together. We went to Disney World together. What are you talking about?

She kind of turned on me. And she was absolutely right. She was right. I should have just listened to her. I should have been like, you're being investigated.

Especially when she asked me to refinance. I should have been like, look, I don't want nothing to do with it, right? But I'm thinking I'm being a friend. So anyway, so when she asked me those questions, and I just bury myself. I didn't realize what was happening until when I started saying, look, okay, here's what you do.

I said, tell them that you never met Kayla. Tell them. She called. You only talked to her on the phone. Like, I'm trying to come up with a way that she can just separate herself.

Like, look, I got a phone call. I set up a loan. The girl closed. I've never met her. I can't help you.

You know? So I said, then what? And she said, no, no, no. She goes, we can't lie to the FBI. We can't lie to the FBI.

I go, what are you talking about? I go, I mean, you've been lying. You're already lying. Like your mortgage was a lie. Like, you're.

What do you. And her husband stands up and he goes, stands up. He goes, we've never lied to the FBI. We may not have told him everything, but we've never lied. And I was like.

So. I mean, like, I. I know that's not true, right? I just did your loan. I know that that's not true.

So it's like. Like, who are you talking to, bro? Like, you're not talking to me. Cause I know that we. I just committed fraud for you.

So I was like. And I thought, oh, fuck. And, like, I remember both their cell phones. Like, literally when they sat down, they put their phones, like, right next to me. And I was like, like, first of all, whatever you just said, that's totally not what's happening.

And two, your phones are here. And honestly, I don't know what their phone. It may have been wired. I don't know if it was a phone, but I just remember seeing the phone. Yeah.

And I thought, wow. And I looked at it, and I go, well, I hope you're getting something for this. I hope you're getting something for me. And she looked at me. She immediately welled up and started crying.

And she goes, I don't have to go to prison. She says, matt, I have a kid. I'm sorry. And I went. I said, I don't have a kid.

And I said, listen, tell the FBI agent, do not come in my office. Because when the FBI went to her office, everybody quit. She had, like, six or eight people. They all quit. And I said, tell them not to come in my office.

Call me. I'll come down and talk to them. And I got up and I left. So I wasn't. It took me 15 minutes to get to the office.

I wasn't there five minutes before my secretary walks in and says, hey, there's an agent Scott Gail on the phone. Wow. For you. And I was like, holy shit. Get on the phone.

He says, hey, and I'm sure you know why I'm calling, not even pretending, like, didn't even wait a couple days. And he's. And he said, I understand that you're willing to come down and talk to me. I said, yeah, okay. I said, I'll be down there on Tuesday or something.

So instead, what? It was like a Thursday or something. So I immediately go out and start interviewing attorneys. I pay an attorney, like, 75 grand. Apparently that's a going rate.

He calls them. He calls off that meeting. We negotiate over the course of several months. And keep in mind, by the time as we're negotiating, one, they wanted to charge my ex wife. And I was like, she didn't have any idea what's going on.

She only signed the documents. She doesn't know anything. You know, completely untrue. Um, but I figured if anybody's got to get in trouble, I'll get in trouble, you know, I'm going to be the tough guy, right? I'm going to be.

I'll. I'm going to protect you, even though we're in the middle of a divorce. Um, but I figured there's no reason for me, if somebody had to go to jail. Like, it should probably be me. Like, I am not capable of taking care of a kid.

I could barely feed my dog, you know? I mean, and she had family and everything else that could help her. And I honestly really didn't think I was gonna go to jail anyway. So what ended up happening was I end up saying, look, I'll plead guilty to wire fraud. You drop all the charges against her.

And they said, okay, but what's so funny, too, I'm gonna tell you this. My lawyer at the time had said, I remember, like, our first or second meeting, he goes, how close are you to your wife? I was like, not close at all. We're getting a divorce. And he goes, you know, he's like, all the loans are in her name.

He said, I mean, I could probably. He said, and by the way, we were selling the properties by this point. We'd already sold, like, two of those properties. We've got another one who's. That's going to be sold.

Like, it's all going to be sold within a month or two. So these loans don't even exist. We made all the payments. The loans don't even exist. There's no loss.

There's something called potential loss, where you could have lost money, but there was no potential loss because the properties were worth two or $300,000. The loans were only, like, 1131 81 60, something like that. There was more than enough equity to cover that. So there's no potential loss. So I can't even go to jail based on the federal sentencing guidelines.

And he says to me, we can do something called a pretrial intervention. Since these are all going to be paid off, all you need to do is go and cooperate with them and go. And it's my understanding, based on Gretchen and Pete, that you're running a mill, right? You got a bunch of guys in there doing fraud. So all you have to do is go into the brokerage business and get a bunch of the most egregious files that your brokers have committed fraud on, bring them to the FBI, explain the whole thing, and I can keep you from being indicted at all.

You don't even get charged. And I was like, I'm not gonna do that. Yeah, but then your guys would get in trouble, right? Yeah, they would all get in trouble. They'd all be in trouble.

And I was like, I'm not doing that. I'm not gonna. You know. But the truth is, you know, looking back on it, what I. You know, so I thought, once again, you know, arrogance, stupidity, I'm gonna be a stand up guy.

I've seen Godfather. You don't talk, you don't tell on your friends. And if I knew then what I know now, I would have gone into the Friday meeting that we had. You know how real estate every Friday or whatever. Yeah.

One day a week, everybody gets together. You have a meeting. How. How are the files going? How is this?

How's that? I had gone in to that meeting with a dolly and scooped up one of the file cabinets and wheeled it into the back of a pickup truck and told those guys, you're probably gonna be contacted by the FBI. If I was you, I'd get a lawyer, and I'd have gone and cooperated and buried every single one of them. Cause the moment the FBI came looking, they all buried me. You see what I'm saying?

Like, I thought, there's no sense of loyalty at all. None. None. But these are like normal people. These are.

Yeah. They're all. They're all gonna say, you turn yourself in, you know, against this guy, then you're gonna get off, and they go to you, you gotta try against this guy, and you get off. And then it's whoever comes in first. I believe.

And with that's who probably gets the best deal, the guy that kind of starts first. And because there was no loss and it was just a white collar crime, I could have kept from being indicted at all. But, you know, and that's the thing. Everybody thinks they're like, you know, I always say a gangster, you know, not that you think you're a gangster, but everybody thinks they're, like, a tough guy. Like, I cut.

I love that. If you, you know, don't commit the crime, if you can't do the time, isn't that catchy? You know, it is. So if you go and you commit a crime and you think, well, how was the most you can get for this? And you go, I'll probably get probation.

And they say, you're getting ten years. Now what? I'll do it. You say you'll do it because you haven't had handcuffs on you. You haven't spent three months in a.

In a jail cell. You haven't seen what you're going to be around the whole time. You haven't seen that all your buddies already stopped talking to you. And if you're gone more than if you're gone for three months, your house, you lose your house, your wife is calling you with your little kid sitting in the visitation room, crying her eyes out, begging me, don't you care about me? Don't you care about your son?

What about your daughter? Don't you care? All they want you to do is cooperate. Fuck those guys. See, everybody's a gangster sitting at the table with their buddies.

But when it comes down to it, it's not that easy. And your buddies that you're protecting are all taken off. They're all talking shit about you. They don't answer the phone. They don't, nothing.

So it's like, you know the whole Omarta thing, right? Like the godfather. The Omarta, the code of silence, it doesn't really exist. It certainly never existed in any of my cases. But theoretically, if everyone did stay silent.

It would be much more difficult for them to put that together. But that's not what's going to happen, you know, listen, the federal authorities, not only will they, if nobody talked, they'll just find some guys in the. In the like. If you're locked up for three months, guys in the unit that you're talking to will call their FBI agent and say, listen, there's a guy named Matt Cox in here. He committed two or $3 million worth of fraud.

I know you guys want him. He's fighting his case. He told me all about his case. He's committing fraud. I can help you.

They'll put that guy on the stand, even if they didn't know anything. They'll take that guy, put him in a room with your file so that he can figure out how to help them. I actually wrote a book about a kid where they did that. They put him and another kid, gave him pizza and orange soda. Crush.

Orange crush soda for, like, two days straight so that they could get their stories straight and testify against somebody. It seems legal. It seems highly illegal if they have nothing to do with the case. But it's just, like, their word. Yeah, but, I mean, how legal is it for police officers to shoot people that are unarmed and they don't get charged?

Or they beat someone almost to death or they, you know, that happens all the time. They don't even get charged. Maybe if they're lucky, they get fired, and then two months later, they're hired at another. I don't know. Listen, federal prosecutors are legally allowed to lie to you.

They're allowed to lie in your case. They're allowed to lie to the court. They never get charged. It's almost never happened. And it's egregious.

Defense attorneys, if they get caught lying, they'll get disbarred. They'll get prosecuted. The whole thing, the system is so. And I'm not saying this because, like, I dislike law enforcement. Trust me.

I love law enforcement. Like, I. You don't know who Grady Judd is. Grady Judd, you've seen the videos. He'll get in front of the microphone, and he'll talk about, you know, he'll say, well, this guy, you know, this person right here barricaded himself in a double wide and was firing at the police, and we shot 100, 8180 bullets into that.

Into that double wide and killed him. And when the. When a reporter says, why did they fire 180 bullets into the double wide? He says, because they ran out of bullets. He goes dead.

Can't be. He goes evil. Can't be dead enough. Like, he seems like a real backwoods jerk off. But that's the guy I want showing up.

I don't want somebody who's gonna be soft and cuddly. You know, I want. I want law enforcement. Almost all the FBI agents in my case, you know, they may have been jerk offs at one point or another, but honestly, like, you know, how. How upset can I be that you're.

I'm ripping off banks, I'm stealing money, and you're an asshole to me. So what? I don't deserve for you not to. Well, my understanding, though, police officers can lie in interrogations to try to get a confession. So that, to me, at least, kind of makes sense if they're trying to get you to admit something like, hey, listen, we got the proof.

Graham Stephan
If you tell us right now, it's gonna go easy, that it could at least practically find her. Right. Not only lie to you, they can promise you things. They can make overt promises. If you tell us this, you will be let go and you could leave.

Right now able to make those promises and you actually keep them. Us attorneys are okay, but never police officers. Right, but they'll, they, no, but us attorneys will never do it in writing. Or they have a way of saying it. They'll say, listen, if you tell us this, we'll take it into consideration and we'll reduce your sentence.

Matthew Cox
And you go, okay, here. And you tell them, and then they go. And they prosecute the person, and then you go, okay, well, you're supposed to reduce my sentence. You said I wouldn't have to go to jail or whatever, and they go, yeah, I know. No, we said we'd consider it, and we did consider it, and it's not enough.

Graham Stephan
So how do you do that if you're in a position like that? Are you supposed to say, I'll only tell you if you get it in writing. Right? And they'll say, go do the time. Go do your five years.

Matthew Cox
See ya. We won't put it. And I've wrote a bunch of true crime stories when I was locked up, out of all the cases I've heard and all the guys stuff that I've looked at, I've seen one person make or get a letter that was signed by a prosecutor that promised 100% this person would get a sentence reduction if they simply told them what was going on in the case. One person, do you know who the, the prosecutor was that wrote that document? Robert Mueller.

He was a us attorney. He eventually became the FBI director, and then he investigated Trump. He's the only person that's ever actually, I've seen written one. Wow. Typically, they just say, look, we'll consider it.

And your lawyer says, what choice do you have? Tell them. And they'll do something. Like, look, and honestly, 90% of the time, they do do something. Right?

Like, if it, if it bears fruit, if you tell them something, and nobody ever gets arrested, they don't give you anything. If you tell them and they get arrested, there's about a 90% chance they'll give you something for it, you know, so, you know, most of the time it works. Yeah, sometimes it doesn't. In your position, then, talking with the attorney, what was their advice to getting out of this, given that you did not want to turn on people? I mean, my attorney's advice was to cooperate against my brokers.

I can. I think I can keep mine at this level. It's so minor, you know what I'm saying? There's no money has been lost. Nobody lost money.

There was no potential to lose money. It was basically, you lied on an application. It's wire fraud. So he's like, I can keep you from being indicted. But I didn't want to do that, you know?

So instead I said, I'm not going to do that. I'll take probate. I'll take whatever they give me. And we thought it was going to be probation. I ended up getting three years probation.

They drop the charges on my wife, I get three years probation. I sell my business to a guy named Dave Walker, who was a. He was a CPA, and he started running my business, and he kept me on as, like, a consultant and was paying me, like, eight grand a month. Was that legal? Yeah, that was fine.

I actually got permission from the court saying he can act as a consultant for his old business. He can't own it anymore. But, your honor, it's all he knows how to do. And, you know, it was such a minor thing. It was wire fraud.

It was fraud. You got three years probation. And right then, that's one of those things that I talked about where, like, that's when I should have said, I'm gonna claim pay, I'm gonna claim bankruptcy, I'm gonna move in with my parents. I'm gonna start my life over. I'm gonna figure out something else to do.

That's what I'm gonna do with my life. But what happened to all the real estate portfolio that you were developing at the time? Did they just take it all? No. Why?

No, they only had three. They never talked to my wife. They had no proof that any of these other loans were bad, I don't think. But couldn't they investigate it? I mean, they have to have a right to pull a warrant.

They have to have. They don't. So it's complicated. Cause, like you said, you were small fish, right? I'm a small fish, and they got me for this, and I pled guilty.

And, okay, we got bigger. We're going on something else. So who owned all of that real estate then? My ex wife. Your ex wife owned it because it was in her name, so you were completely removed from that.

Right. But remember the three that she did? By the time I pled guilty, she sold them. Interesting. And they don't know that everything she's done is fraudulent.

I never spoke with them. Did you? My lawyer talked to them, so they were never able to ask me questions. During the divorce, did you try to get any of that real estate? Yeah, but honestly, she's puerto rican.

She's just way too mean. She's just a. She's very mean. And she loves to fight and love to argue. She really just loved it.

I mean, she's one of those women. It's like four in the morning and you're desperately trying to go to sleep for an argument. And she just keeps going and going and going. And it's like four in the morning. We've been arguing for 6 hours.

Please stop. I can't stop anything. Anything. Why'd you guys get divorced? What do you think?

Graham Stephan
Was it that? Why? Take a guess. No, I'm just curious because, I mean, I think. Okay, first of all, we dated, and within two or three months, she's pregnant.

Matthew Cox
Okay. Okay. So, you know, the alternative wasn't something I was okay with. I was catholic. And not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with that, but there's certain.

There are certain reasons that I can say this is acceptable. You know, we're not broke. We're not. I'm not 15 years old, and it's going to irrevocably destroy my life or change my life, let's say so. I can't use that.

It's not incest. It's not rape. You know, I had money. We'll get married, you know, and listen, you know, it's bad when you start the marriage off with everybody. You tell you're getting married.

This is how you tell them. I'm get. Oh, by the way, I'm getting married, and if it doesn't work out, we'll get a divorce. Like, that was always not how, you know, it's doomed. And so it was doomed.

And, you know, and we were both fairly young and we barely knew each other. And honestly, you know, I had a lot of money. I'm driving nice cars. I'm having sex with a couple of my mortgage brokers. Oh, so you're cheating on her?

Yeah. At this, after? No, within. She figured out. Within about a year, she figured out.

She got a private investigator. He's following me around. She knows way too much. Did you know that there was a private investigator? No, I didn't.

Till later. She told me later, after we were divorced, she had told me. And it's funny too, because I was dropping off my son one day, and she had mentioned it because we were still friends. We still have a kid together. And she mentioned.

I go, that's not true. That's not true. And I always used to look at her mother for confirmation. I go, that's not true. I go, Milka.

Her mom's milk. I go, Milka. And she goes, it's true. And I was like, no, my God. She goes, yeah.

She goes, you're lucky. You only lost what you lost. She's like, why did you start cheating? What was the catalyst on that? I mean, I think I was just young and arrogant and just, you know, it's so funny because I can't imagine, like, I'm married now.

I can't imagine jeopardizing what I have now. But I was such an asshole, bro. Like, even now you can see that I'm obnoxious, I'm slightly arrogant, you know? Like, this is tame. This is tame.

I was a complete jerk off. Yeah, it just didn't work out. And look, she got remarried. She married a guy. Listen, she married the guy.

She married a guy that had been in the military for, like, she was like. He was, like, a marine for, like, six years. He only got out because he had broken his wrist and couldn't do, like, some thing that they have to do. They were like, you can go to the army. It was like, I'm not doing that.

He gets out. So we're about. He was. He was also, like, 100% Puerto rican. His whole family had been in the military.

He had been in the military. He's been. Was a marine. I was like, you know, like, this is the perfect guy for her. Like, he's the only.

She's the only one who's gonna put up with her. What was the value of that real estate that she ended up getting at the time? Oh, it was. It was a million, million and a half worth, maybe more than that. And that's 20 something years.

Jack Selby
And how many units was it? You said it was actually 54. The most we ever had at one time was 54. Was that not hard for you to stomach? Like, okay, all this work and all.

Matthew Cox
These units in a year. So you thought, okay, I can get this back? Yeah, well, that's. Listen, that's nothing. I mean, I don't know that we'll get to it, but listen, I've walked away from tons of money just because it's like, look, you know, like I said, it's not the money at this point.

I've got all the money I need. Like, I've got money coming in. I'm paying my bills. I'm driving a fucking sports car. I've got two or three rental properties of my own.

I've got a property I'm renovating. We got divorced and I owned a piece of property, and I should have moved back in with my parents, like I said, but just out of arrogance, I just said, you know, I'm not going to do that. I didn't want to be embarrassed in front of my father as more so than I'd already was, embarrassed that now I'm a felon. That's when I decided to start making synthetic identities. That's when I started making.

We. You know, there was no such thing as synthetic identities back then. They were called. It was. We called them phantom borrowers.

I don't even think the synthetic identities even came into the term, came into existence until probably five or ten years. Later, when you were on poe probation, did you know immediately. Okay, I'm not done running scams. Yeah, I would say roughly the same time, maybe even months beforehand, I had already kind of started. Creating the synthetic identity was part of.

Graham Stephan
That because you didn't want to give up the lifestyle that you'd become accustomed to, like, driving a nice car, having a nice place, nice clothes. Yeah, definitely, definitely. You know, that was super important to me. So it's maintaining the image initially? Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Matthew Cox
What was the car? And I, you know, I had an. I had an Audi. I mean, I have had a few Audis and bmws, but I remember at that point, I had, like, an Audi TT quattro. And they just come out.

There was just a super cool. That was that 2004, I believe they came out. No, this was in. No, this is in 2001, 2002. Realize.

Graham Stephan
Yeah, yeah, wow. Yeah. Oh, this is like the first. They were super cool, right? Like three r eight.

Matthew Cox
Yeah, I remember my. My business partner was like, six foot six. That guy, Dave Walker. He tried to get in at one time, and he looked like. And he looked like a clown in one of those clown cars.

The little clown car. Like, his knees, like, it was so. It was hilarious. I used to have a lotus Elise. Oh, there's people get in over six foot tall, and they'd be there and their legs are, like, scrunched up there.

You feel bad for them. First time I've ever felt bad for somebody who's over six foot tall. Yeah. So anyway, I, that I had a property I was renovating in Ybor City, which is an area just outside of Tampa that was built back in the early 19 hundreds cigar factories. Right.

Cubans would come and work the cigar factories and they would make all these, or they had tons and tons of these old houses. What I decided to do was start creating fake people. The reason I did that was initially what I thought was, hey, look, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to start renovating properties and start rehabbing properties. And, you know, because you could buy them then for $50,000, you could buy rehab.

If you put 25 in it, you could sell it for 100, 150, right? Maybe, let's say 100 within reason. Buy it for 50, put 25 in it. Sell it. You make 25, but you don't really ever make 25, right?

You still have carrying costs and everything. Probably have to give your. Because the people in those areas don't have good credit. So I'm probably going to have to give you your down payment. Maybe we get an FHA loan, maybe you have to give your down payment, pay your closing costs.

You probably quit your job three days before closing. That's the kind of stuff that these guys do. So I was like, I'm going to buy these properties, renovate them, but then I also have to spend 25 or $30,000. I don't want to do that. So it was like, okay, what can I do here to make good money without having to go in and do the construction myself?

And I was already flipping properties. I've always been flipping something. I decide I want to buy these properties. They will only appraise it between $100,000 to 150,000. How can I get them to appraise higher?

And really, to be honest, like 100,000. How can I get them to appraise higher? Well, by that point, I was dating a chick at a title company.

And so I go to her and I say, look, how can I get, how can I buy a property for 50, get the sale to show up at 200,000? And she was like, well, you can pay the extra doc stamps. She said, because if you buy something for $100,000, you pay $700 in Doc stamps, like 0.007, $700. She goes, if you paid an extra 700, it'd show up for 200,000. So this is a stamp that they put on the document.

It's just the terms. Doc stamps. It's just a term. It's like, let's say taxes. If you pay $700 in taxes.

So let's say that. So I was like, okay, well, I'm buying these houses for 50, paying 350. So if I pay an extra 1150, that $50,000 purchase will show up at 200. And it's more complicated than this because I would vary it, obviously. Some would be 210, 215, 195, property.

Graham Stephan
Taxes or insurance or all these other costs, because they'd see a higher value, that property taxes would be higher, insurance. Would be higher once it got assessed. Right. But I'm only keeping it for a few months, six months. Wouldn't they want that reassessment, though?

Because even for any properties I purchased, they've always gone back and said, okay, you pay the lower amount now, but then the year later you paid last year's. Right. But I don't own it then, and I'm not buying it in my name. Okay, so you would. Okay, so I'm going in.

You wouldn't care. So what I decide is I'm gonna buy these houses for 50,000. I'm gonna record the sales at 200,000. And that way, if I fix it up and sell it, then I can make a huge profit margin. But nobody's going to buy a house for 200,000 in abort city back then.

Matthew Cox
So I thought, okay, then I need to get a straw buyer, right? A straw man, a fake person. Or let's say Graham's got perfect credit. Graham, we'll go into. We're going to go into do this together.

You're going to buy five houses. We're going to pull out 100,000 out of each houses, and we'll split it when I have to split it with a gram, because most people will let. For 250,000. Most people will. Will destroy their credit for that.

They're like 250,000 in my pocket. Yeah, I'll do that. Well, but I don't want to split it with him. And he's going to be a problem anyway. As soon as it goes bad, he's going to bitch and moan.

What if he says something? No. So what I need to do is create my own borrowers. And so what I end up doing is I figured out, and I already knew how to do this because a customer had come in who was. Had used her son's Social Security number and had built up credit under his name using her name and his Social Security number.

And she had perfect credit. So I knew that was possible. So what I did was I figured out how to go to Social Security, and I convinced Social Security to issue me Social Security numbers for children that don't exist. So, you know, and the way I did that real quick is I just called them once, and at first I said, hey, you know, I forget how old I was. Then what?

Let's say 31. I'm 31 years old, and I've never had a Social Security number. And they're like, that's not true. Do you ever drive a license? Yes.

Okay. Do you have a Social Security number? Click. You know, then I call back, hey, you know, I was born, they were like, they were like, you're born in a hospital. I was like, yeah.

They're like, you've got one. Hang up. Then I said, hey, I was born with a midwife, and I never had one. Well, do you have a driver's license? Yes.

You've got one. Damn it. You ever had a bank account? Yes. I'm like, yeah.

And then, you know, I tried to say, I tried to say all these different things. Then I figured, okay, who wouldn't? They were like, there's no, somebody said, there's no way you can get to be 30 years old and not have it one. Get your driver's license. Come down here.

We'll look it up for you. I don't want to do that. So I went, yeah, I'm too old. So I called back and I say, hey, listen, I got a three year old son. He was born with a midwife.

He never had a Social Security number issued to him. And they went, okay, well, come down here, bring your son. You know, fuck, hang up. Call back. I say, I cant.

Hes in Columbia with my wife or wherever. Shes going to have him there for the next year or two. But I need this to claim him on my taxes. So they come back and theyre like the one woman says, yeah, oh, gosh. She goes, thats too bad.

She goes, how old is he? And I went, oh, hes three. And she goes, oh, thats too bad. I said, why? She says, well, if he was under twelve months old, he wouldnt need to show up.

You could just bring his birth certificate and his shot record. Yes, I hang, hang up. Call back, hi, my son was born with a midwife. He's ten months old. He's out of the country.

How do I get a Social Security number? They said, oh, give him, bring his birth certificate and his shot record. So I go online, I print out a shot record for Hillsborough county vital statistics. They show you how to print one out. They even fill it out.

They have one that's an example of one that's filled out. So I just use the date of birth, right, that I just chose for this fictitious person. Then I made a fake birth certificate. I ordered the security paperwork. You know, one of those.

You make a copy of it. It says, void if copied. Like, I make. Get that. It's multicolored.

You order, like, a thousand sheets of it. It comes. I end up coming up with a birth certificate. I go into Social Security. I give them that, give them the shot record.

They go, oh, that's so weird. Hold on. They check, and they go, oh, wow, you're right. He doesn't have a Social Security number. They go, you'll have one.

Here's your stuff back. They gave me a little printout that said almost nothing, that I had ordered one or something. They said, you'll have one in ten days. Sure enough, two weeks later, boom. Comes in the mail.

I got a Social Security number in a name that I just made up. What is a midwife? A midwife is a woman who usually goes to your house and assists with a birth at home. Because some people don't want to go to some religions. Of course, they may not want to go to a hospital, but then some people in general, they don't want to pay $15,000.

For what? Or maybe they've already had a kid and they know I can have a kid by myself. I just need somebody to help me. Midwife is trained to help. Kinda like a nurse for birthing.

Jack Selby
Interesting. And I only know that cause I saw it on, like, 2020. It was like, 2020 or 60 minutes ran an ad. Like, I don't know what a midwife is. I only knew that.

Matthew Cox
Cause I'd seen that. So what's the value in just having a Social Security number now? Because it's to a, you know, a ten month old that doesn't exist. Well, most people think that the credit bureaus know that Social Security number goes with this name and this date of birth, but they don't know that. They only know that when you tell them the first time you applied for a credit card, you told them, my name is Jack so and so.

Here's my Social Security number. Here's my date of birth, here's my address. That creates a credit profile. If you'd given them the wrong Social Security or the wrong name, they would have created a profile in that wrong name. Now, of course, if you then changed it and gave them a different name, they would connect it, because the Social Security number, the date of birth was the same and maybe even the address.

And they'd say, fraud alert, something's wrong. But I didn't. I said, you know, the name was, let's say this wasn't the name, but let's say it was a Brandon green Social Security number, date of birth. And I said, he's like a 31 year old guy. And it said.

So I pulled the credit. Well, actually applied online for a credit card. Denied. But the next time I applied, there was an inquiry. And keep in mind, I can pull my own credit, so I can go to, like, network credit, and I can pull the credit and see exactly what shows up.

So I can see the inquiry that I just did, did online an hour ago. Or if I do three, all three inquiries show up. So I'm like, now I know. So what I did was I got three secure. I would do that first, and then I would get three secured credit cards, $500, $800, $200, and I would make the minimum payments on those credit cards.

And in six months, the credit bureaus automatically generate credit scores. So now you've got a 710 credit score, 605, whatever. And, you know, it worked like a charm. So what? I had already been doing that when I started buying the properties and recording the values at 200,000.

By the time I was sentenced to three years paper, I already had people ready to go. So then I go out and I buy some properties for 50,000, record the values at 200, and I bought three or four of them. So for every appraisal subject property, you need three comparable sales within roughly, let's say a mile, that have sold within roughly a year. You know, they want six months and half, but whatever, you know, 1 mile, one year. Well, keep in mind, I went into Ybor City and I bought this property that's 1500 square feet.

And this one that 1750, and this one is 1820. This one was 1910. I bought all those, those within two or three, maybe within half a mile. Well, all within half a mile. Some are literally, you could stand on the porch and see that one and that one, and maybe another one's a half a mile away.

And so I cleaned those properties up, bought them in different names, and then called an appraiser to come out and appraise the property, which, by the way, the properties are gutted. So, like, I'm just cleaning up the outside. The appraiser comes in, he looks at it, and. But he, because he does so many appraisals for my brokerage business or my old brokerage business, I tell him I'm renovating the property. We're just going to pull out some money and do the renovations.

He see me do a bunch of flips. He goes ahead and does the appraisal. We pop some. Some photos in of the inside of another house. I get an appraisal for 210,000.

I refinance it, get an 80% loan. So you get like, whatever, you know, $170,000 or something like that, right? 165. Whatever it comes to get $165,000. I only have 50 or 75.

Not even that. I only have 50 or 60 grand in it. So I make 100,000 profit. So Brandon Green buys this property or he refinances. He buys this property.

Refinances. Buys this property. Refinances. Buys this property. Refinances.

It buys five of them refinances. It gets about a million dollars worth of mortgages, pulls out $600,000. Then, of course, I run up his. By this point, I bought. I've got credit cards for five, for 10,000 countrywide.

Used to, if you put down like ten grand immediately, I mean, we're talking about within two weeks, you've got a pre approved $10,000 credit card. So it's like 100% financing, right? They're going to give it back to you credit. So I got the credit cards and then, of course, I turn around, I apply for credit cards. You get one for whatever, 15,000.

Then, you know, then your score starts to drop. Then you. You go to, you get another one. It's, you know, $1,200. Then you go to Home Depot and you get a dollar 500 credit card, and then you go to the gap and you get a $350 credit card, and then everybody's just denying you.

But it doesn't matter. You end up with $50,000 in credit cards. You. But the same time, I would go into multiple banks and I'd get personal loans for 15,000. So I go to Wachovia and get $15,000.

I go to. I go to all these places and get 15,000. So I'm getting $100,000 in personal loans and credit cards and then 600,000. So it's like $700,000. I make the payments on those houses for three or four months and then I just stop paying, you know?

Graham Stephan
But you've got the money. Oh, I've got the money. I made the payment. And keep in mind, too, they're not first payment defaults, and they've been sold three or four times by now to multiple different banks have bought these on the secondary market. But where is the money sitting?

Matthew Cox
Different accounts under this guy. So remember I said I would, I could go in, I could take that, that id and I could go in and get a, and get a bank account so I can put the money in his bank account or in my bank account. But then how does that money get from him to you? If it's in his bank account, then he could just write a check. It's me.

I can write myself a check. I signed Brandon Green on Brandon Green's account. But isn't that too obvious, though? It is obvious and it is stupid. And I agree.

Graham Stephan
I absolutely, I'm trying to understand you. But you also have to keep in mind, too, that I'm not thinking I'm going to get caught fraud. I've keep in mind, I've been in the business multiple, you know, whatever, three, four years at this point. Well, let's say two or three years at this point. And I've seen guys buy a house, make four payments, and it goes into foreclosure and it's all fraud.

Matthew Cox
All your w, two fake pay stubs. We faked your down payment. Everything's fake. You made three payments. It went, you pulled out $50,000 and it went to foreclosure.

Nobody came looking. So I've seen this happen over and over and over again. What I knew was a guarantee was as long as you make the first payment. And keep in mind, too, because I am these people. I'm in control of them.

I know when somebody's calling to re verify their employment. I know when somebody's calling any of these phone numbers. Nobody's calling. Like you might have some creditors call after they're 90 days late or 60 days late, but that's all they're doing, is calling. Nobody's showing up.

Nobody's, nobody's saying fraud at this point, those files, the original files don't even exist at this point. They've turned those files into just like a series of numbers, like it's now just, it's now just on a series of numbers on a ledger somewhere. Remember how during the financial crisis, people were getting their mortgages forgiven because they couldn't even find the original truth in lending good faith? Those, those, those loans are gone. Even if they're warehoused somewhere, they're not with whoever the creditor is at this point.

Now this is some guy in California calling, some guy who he thinks works, you know, who's a laborer, he thinks is a laborer or works for express tax services. They're calling from California to try and get in touch with this guy. They don't have the files. Maybe mortgage warehouse has the original file. They don't.

So they're not looking for fraud. They just want you to pay. And if you don't pay and you give them a reason why you're not paying. And that's what I would do. I would take an article for, let's say, like a ten car pile up on I 75.

Like, there's a ten car pile up. And someone was life flighted to Tampa General Hospital. And I would take copy and paste that article, and I would put my guys name, saying, my guy, Brandon Green was light, was in the crash, and he was life flight at Tampa General Hospital, and he's in critical condition. I print the article out. I printed on newsprint.

I'd cut it up and make, make, then make a copy of that. Then I'd write a letter from his sister, Jennifer Green, saying, my brother was in a car accident. He's currently in a coma. And the doctors say even if he wakes up, he'll never work again. Sorry about your loss.

Go ahead and take the house. We're not gonna fight it. And she would. I would mail those to every single creditor that wrote a letter trying to collect. And they wouldn't double check.

No. How are they even gonna check? Couldn't there be, like, a death or hospital record? So I never wanted to do. I thought about doing a death certificate.

Keep mine. I did a birth certificate. My fear with a death certificate was like, I didn't know what they could do, but I knew if he's sick or he lost his job or, like, that's possible. Like, the hospital is not going to say if you're there. They don't even know where he is.

Like, he could have gone to Tampa General. He could now be staying at, you know, whatever. St. Petersburg, you know, Baptist Hospital. Like, who knows?

So they don't know. They're. And they're not. Even if they could find out, so he is there, okay. They're not getting your money.

They don't care. It's some person answering a phone, one call after another. You've seen them with the headphones that we dials. They're like, look, I'm just trying to put what's in the file. The guy's not going to pay.

Take the house. They take the house. They put it back on the market. It doesn't sell. Three months later, they drop the price.

Doesn't sell. Three months later, they drop the price. They drop the right year. A year later, they're selling it for 90,000. And they're only selling it for 90,000 because by that point, I've driven the prices of the whole area.

So I did this to the tune. I did. The FBI said I did 109 houses. I think that's not true. I think that's.

I think they threw in some other properties in there that I didn't do this with. You know, just properties where I bought a property and I sold it to Graham or I sold it to you, whatever. They just threw it in there. Whatever. They said it was $11.5 million for that.

And keep in mind, they also turned around and they investigated. This is when it all came. Came to a head. They investigated my mortgage company, and they said my mortgage company had done $40 million in fraud, that I was attached to her for a conspiracy. Right, like, you did some, you did some.

But because I own the place and I helped you, then I'm responsible. So at that point. So by the time it gets to around eleven, you know, you know, I'm. I've got multiple. I got a bunch of these guys going.

I've got Brandon Green, I've got James Red, I've got David Silver, I've got Lee Black. So I named them all. So there was a movie called Reservoir Dogs and Reservoir Dogs, which is a Quentin Tarantino movie. All of the guys that are involved in, like, this bank heist. No, but none of them know each other.

So he. Everybody has a nickname. So there's a guy named Mister Pink, Mister Black, Mister Red, Mister White. So I thought that was cute. So I put, you know, I got Michael White, Lee black, you know, so I did all.

So everybody's got a different name. How many in total? How many people did you create? So I didn't get to use them all. So let's say I could say ten or twelve, but I only.

I only I didn't get to use all of them. Them. I mean, if you said a million apiece, if you said it was eleven and a half million dollars, right, then there should be like eleven or twelve of them. But I didn't get to use all of them. Can people still create fake identities using your method?

Oh, yeah, yeah. And it fixed it. How is it still so simple? It's the same thing. There's got to be.

Right? But it's like fraud, right? Like, you know, they could make mortgage loans so that there's no fraud on a mortgage loan. Right? But think about how difficult that would be.

It would like, it would slow the process down. It would make it so difficult, almost nobody would be able to get a house. And you say, yeah, but it only be qualified people. Yeah, but some people that aren't qualified get houses. Lots of people that aren't qualified get houses.

And they still make the payments. I guess in that case too, even if they wanted you to bring in a child, who's to say you could bring in someone? You could bring in any child and. Be like, here's the baby. He can't speak or talk and sleeping right now, but like this is, he.

Could be five years old, he's still not going to do anything but sit there and, you know, he's not. But, yeah, I wouldn't, you know, listen, I'm already terrified I might get arrested. I'm not walking in with my three year old son, you know, and, you know, saying, shh, don't say anything. You know, just, there's a certain line, you know, the bar is low. It's low, but there's still a bar.

Yeah, it's like, okay, I'm not gonna do that. So you're making some pretty serious money with every fake person that you would create. Right. But I'm also, you know, keep in mind too, like, I'm not making all of this money because I have people helping me. So I have other people, I have mortgage brokers, I have partners that are getting the property.

I got a real estate agent thats going and finding these houses that meet this criteria. And the houses keep getting more and more expensive, so we keep jacking up the price of the area, too. Im going to say this initially, we go to a guy, he wants to sell his house for 60,000. And hes like, I want 75. Im like, he had it listed for 60 like two months ago.

He's like, yeah, I know, but I want 75 now. Oh, forget it. Three months later, the area is drying up, right? We're buying a lot of stuff and now investors are coming and buying up stuff. Do we go back to the guy and go, I'll give you 75,000?

He goes, yeah, I want 90. 92 months ago, you wanted 75. And he's like, yeah, I want 90. Nah, you're, yeah, it's not going to happen. I'm sorry.

Yeah, good luck. A few months later, you come back, I'll give you 90. He's like, yeah, I want 110. Where are you getting these prices from? He's like, have you seen what these properties are selling for?

That house over there sold for $230,000. Yeah, I know. I own that house. It sold for 50. I recorded it at 230.

Do you see what I'm saying? Because I was creating all these comparables. People that had houses that weren't worth shit were now thinking they were worth something. Now they think it's worth 100,000, it's worth 50. So I was working against myself, and Forbes.com ended up listing the Ybor City zip code, which is a 33605, as one of the.

In 2003, they listed it as one of the top 20 fastest growing zip codes in the nation. So, I mean, I jacked up the price, you know, by the time I was done, it was around 300. Because by that point, we stopped doing single family homes and we were doing, like, multifamily homes. We were doing triplexes, Quadplex. Those were recording at like 500,550.

By that point, the FBI shows up. What tipped them off? Like, what were some of the flags that alerted them? All the properties that had gone into foreclosure, they never got tipped off, not once. Right?

So we're talking about whatever, 70, 80 of them at this point have gone into foreclosure. What year was this? The 2000? Late 2003. Okay.

So I've been doing it for about 18 months to 2018 to 20 months. And, you know, it was at, like, eleven and a half. And that's their number. You know, I don't know exactly what. I don't know if it's more or less.

Like, I wasn't keeping tabs, so. And keep in mind, too, that money. Everybody's like, where's that money? Well, we were also building new. We were doing new construction, and we're buying lots.

We probably had 100 vacant lots that we're buying. Cause think about it, we've driven the prices up. We wanna take advantage of it. Let's go ahead and build multifamily properties on these. On these vacant lots, and that way we can pretty much get anybody in for nothing.

And the other units pay their rent. Did you ever have an unsuspecting buyer purchase one of your homes for like, 200 and something grand? It was only worth 50. No, it was. They were that bad.

Okay? Like, nobody would. Nobody's gonna fall for that. The only people that might buy one like that is somebody where maybe you pulled so much money out of it for the guy and told him to renovate it himself, which is kind of like, what? What happened here?

So. So I get to a point where I've saturated Ybor city. So I start to run a scam with a buddy of mine in Orlando. He buys a couple houses and renovates or refinances those houses. He gets a bank account.

We're pulling money out of the bank account in cash. He's coming up every day. Every couple of days, he's pulling out money, coming to me, giving me some money, making the payments on the houses. And then I start running another scam with a chick named Allison. And so she buys a house, and she gets multiple mortgages on that house.

This guy's actually got multiple mortgages, too. So now we're doing multiple mortgages. So we're buying a house, and then we're satisfying the loan on the house. So if I go to you and I say, hey, I love your house, can you own or finance it to me? And you say, yeah, you own or finance it?

So I give you ten grand down. You own or finance $100,000 house, and you've got a mortgage on it. We then go downtown, and we create a satisfaction of mortgage, a fake document saying we've paid it off. We file that with. With the clerk of the court, and now your mortgage is no longer.

It shows up, but it says, we took a mortgage out, bought your house. You gave us a mortgage, and we paid it off. So if somebody else searches the house, they go, yes, he owns the house free and clear. He doesn't owe anything. So when they get the title search, it doesn't even say you're talk about your mortgage.

Says he owns it free and clear. Notice that though, the bank with the mortgage, that something had been filed. Like. Like, is there no alert on a property that would come up where it's like, hey, something was filed on the property that you have a mortgage on? This is.

Graham Stephan
The mortgage was satisfied, but nothing. It's public records. They record. That's it. They don't verify.

Matthew Cox
They don't double verify. They don't notify anybody. They record it. In fact, even if they believe there's a fraudulent document, but it looks. All the lines are filled out.

They have to file it by law. They cannot and they cannot investigate it. So here's something I was curious about, is the due on sale clause with mortgages. So if I have this mortgage here and I sell the house to Jack, my understanding is that, that the mortgager would have a due on sale clause, that when the home closes, they get an alert, and they know the home closes, they don't. They don't get an alert.

Graham Stephan
So, theoretically, I could sell the house to Jack and just tell Jack, hey, take over my payments. I've done that before. Never be late. And they won't know. No, they will never.

Matthew Cox
They would only know if they sent an abstractor down there to record the mortgage. Now, of course, they do it online. They could go online and they could look. But even then, what's the likelihood that the bank's going to try and foreclose on him if he's making the payments now? They.

Technically, they can, right? Why would we? Most banks lose 20% of the value of their mortgage if they foreclose? Why would I foreclose? He's making the payments.

I'll wait till he doesn't make the payments. Now, what if, though, you have a low mortgage at 3%, wouldn't it be in their interest to say, we want to get rid of this 3% loan, get it off our books, assuming they own it. But if it's a $200,000 mortgage, and the house is worth 200, 2230, keep in mind, they're not selling the house for 230. They're going to sell it for like 180. They're going to lose 20 grand.

Graham Stephan
So it's better just, hey, as long as they're making the payments, somebody's making. Somebody'S making the payments, they don't care. It's interesting, because we had pace Morbion about a year and a half ago. He was saying this due on sale clause, that most of the time he's never had the bank. He said one time, one time out of like hundreds of properties, which is unbearable.

Matthew Cox
I can't even imagine. He had it once. Yeah, yeah. I can't listen. I literally had.

When I was on the run, I'll tell you this story real quick, real quick. When I was on the run, I bought a house. So I. This is even funnier. I bought a house from this guy, Lauren, in the name of a fake person.

Right? Well, yeah, it was a homeless guy that I'll get to. Anyway, we'll get there, guys. So I buy this house from this guy, and then he owner finances it. He's actually got a mortgage on the house.

So I do a wraparound mortgage, right? So I owe him 100,000. He owes the bank 95. So I then go downtown, I do a satisfaction, a mortgage for Lauren, and I do a satisfaction for his. The loan he has on it.

I'm paying Lauren for like three months. He stops paying them. So he was going into bankruptcy. That's why he was selling the house. So he stops paying, they start foreclosing on me.

My name was Gary Sullivan. So I call him up, I'm like, bro, I've been paying you. What's going on? This, I'm in a foreclosure. And he's like, he's like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm going into bankruptcy.

So I go down to the, it's a local bank, like a credit union. I go down to their lawyer, there's a local lawyer, and I go in and I say, look, this is what's happening. I show him the paperwork and they know he doesn't own it anymore. They go, oh, you're Gary Sullivan. I said, yeah.

He said, you bought it from Laura. I said, yeah. And he said, yeah. He said he hasn't been paid. He's been having troubles for a while.

He said, okay, well, can you? And I'm like, how can I reinstate the mortgage? And he comes back, he goes, give me $3,700 so I can, whatever, it's 3700 and change, boom. And he says, okay. I said, well, look, how can I keep this from happening again?

He said, give me your address. We're going to have them just send you, uh, all the payments from here on out. It'll still be in Lauren's name, but you just make the payments, you'll be fine. Wow, why didn't they foreclose? They had a due launch sale clause.

It was in foreclosure. They knew 100% what had happened. So I'm so confused because in this market, why couldn't sellers just say, hey, you take over my payment and 99% of the time we're going to be fine. And that way a new buyer just takes over the existing payment. I hear, I know it's still going.

Graham Stephan
To be in their name. So if they default on that, it's still up to you. Yeah, but that's risk. That's a subject to. It's a subject to mortgage, right?

Matthew Cox
You're buying the house subject to the mortgage, right, right. That's what it's called. And it happens. Maybe not all the time, but it does happen. And I've never seen any, any lender ever say, hey, you're not the person we lent the money to.

We want the house back, we're going to foreclose. I'm making the payments, making the payments. Like I have a hard, I have a hard time believing you're going to go in front of a judge and this house. I'm making the payments on this house for six months and you're going to convince a judge to foreclose on me on a house I'm paying on. I don't know that that's possible.

And I don't know why, why they would do it. Why do they want to do it? You know, maybe. I see, I don't think the banks make those types of decisions because I don't think there's somebody laying in bed thinking, if we foreclose on this property, there's so much equity there, we could make $80,000. I don't, I don't think that.

It's just a number, a process. They don't care. It's so interesting. It is interesting. It's a great, it's a money making opportunity.

When the market's down and people start going into foreclosure, you can go look for those foreclosures and say, look, I'll catch your payments up and you just get, you leave, I'll catch your payments up and then you rent the property out. Well, I'm thinking more of the times of now where if I were to sell this house, my mortgage would go from like 2.8% to 7%. And so for a buyer who's buying this house, to be able to pay a 2.8, not that I'm would do this, but I'm just hypothetically, if the buyer pays a 2.8, saves an extra 6% on that. Oh, yeah, that would be 5%. It's huge.

I was actually going to say, someone in this market can probably already qualify for that loan, but you're right, they're not going to get that interest rate. Yeah, so I can see that. See, I was thinking, someone's going to foreclosure, you catch their payment up. Because really, how I deal with. Never mind.

This person is going to foreclosure. You catch their payment up, and then you just go list the property. You say, look, I've got $6,000 into cashing their payment up. You go list that property. You go make flyers and go to an urban club and say, an urban club?

And you say, hey, for $20,000, you can take over these payments. I'll take 20,000 in cash. Some guy's going to come, yo, man, what's up? I got you 20 grand in cash. You take the 20 grand in cash, you say, there's your payment booklet.

You transfer the deed into his name. Run with it. You just made 20. Well, you got 20 plus less than 60. You just made $14,000.

He'll never qualify for a loan. He's a drug dealer, right? So not that I would do that. That's a good idea. But it's not.

Not in this, but really not this market because it's not really there yet. Right. A year from now when things start going south, you know, because you know how many guys I've known that they have some. Some. They've got a woman who rents a house for them because they can't even get it.

They can't even rent a property. Like you're a drug dealer. You cannot even get into a decent piece of property. You have to have your. Some friend of a friend's girlfriend rent the property and then you move in it and you, you know, you pay the rent.

But it sucks for them too. Like, they can't. They can't put in hardwood floors. They can't paint it. They can't do anything.

Well, this is your house. But I need 20 grand in cash or 30 grand or 40 grand in cash and you are only in that position. And they don't even care if they're upside down. Even if they were 20 grand upside down, they don't care. They own the house.

It's your house. You'll never own one, so you're upside down. Two years from now, you won't be six years. You won't be 25 years because you don't even have a 30 year mortgage. You got maybe a 22 years left on the mortgage.

Maybe 25, 25 years, you own the house. That's not a bad idea, right? Like they. They do that. I could definitely talk somebody in that.

Holy shit. You don't have to be at the airport at 730. Oh, oh. Is it set to Easter?

This is what happened with laughter, by the way, when we were done, you know what? Let me run to the bathroom to go for it. We took a break. We took two breaks. We took two breaks.

And then when we were done, he's like, how long do you think we've been talking? I went, oh, man. I said, three, three and a half hours. You go, seven and a half hours. He trimmed it to six and a half.

Jack Selby
He cut out an hour. He cut out an hour. I mean, I was like, my wife was waiting in the lobby. She'd gone to get lunch. She'd walked on the beach.

Matthew Cox
I had shut my phone off. She went and got in the back of the car and fell asleep. I thought she said, that's it. It's over. It's over.

It's funny. Afterwards he was like, listen, he said, would you mind if I mention your name to Rogan? I go, does anybody say no to that? That's funny, because I just think you guys would have a great conversation. I think so, too.

He would find you fascinating. I was like, right. But the truth is, I know that people have already mentioned Mead Rogan. He actually, Rogan watched my soft, white underbelly and talked about it on his show. Say my name.

He just said, I watched this one of a con man on soft white underbelly. Well, I'm the only guy. At that time, I was the only. And, you know, had mark on. And it's just I think two or three people have mentioned him.

I know hundreds of people have told them in the comment section and stuff. So I know they've heard my name. They get inundated, obviously. And it's just I'm pretty sure at some point, and I know Lex mentioned me, and I've never heard anything. So.

Because people are like, bro, you got to go online on. You have to go on a Joe Rogan. But it's just not gonna happen. You know, let's. Let's face it.

Like, I've had a great run. Like, honestly, a few months before the last few months of my prison term, I laid in bed every night and thought, how are you gonna make a living? Anybody that looks you up, it just says scumbag, scumbag. Like I was. I honestly would have told you.

What's the chances of you living in someone's spare room and just writing true crime books the rest of your life? I'd have said 90%. And I thought, maybe I'll get frustrated at some point, and I'll go get a job after probation selling cars or maybe working for a development company or maybe, like. And then I got out, and, I. Mean, what a 180 flip, though.

Jack Selby
It seems like that humbled you a lot, the prison experience, because you said you struggled with arrogance. If you watch the whole podcast with Lex, there are certain things that if I even think about, I'll immediately tear up, you know? And honestly, like, the appreciation and humility that I suffer from is so. I'm so disgusted with myself. Even though honestly, it's not even.

Matthew Cox
It should be that, you know, I took this guy's house and I threw him into turmoil. He had to go get a lawyer to get his fucking house back to clear that. Like, I should be upset about that. But, you know, I'm not. That's where I'm, like, I'm sociopathic.

My opinion, your. You know, people say, oh, I don't care what people think. Like, your opinion of me means about as much as that stick of fucking furniture's opinion of me. Like it really is. I don't like when I hear people get embarrassed or upset because so and so says that.

I don't even understand it. The anger, when people say in the comment section, like, it doesn't affect me at all, I laugh. Were you always like that? I think I've always been like that, but, so. But when I think about the person I was and my behavior and how I thought, and even still today, at least now I can see it.

Listen, bro, I lived in someone's spare room for 18 months, and I was happy. I had been happier with virtually nothing now than I ever was when I had a million, $2 million in the bank and a shitload of friends that didn't give a fuck about me. Not one of those people cared about me. The p. You know who the only people that came to prison to see me was?

People that I'd never done anything for. High school friends, guys that I had met, you know, that used to make it. Do it air conditioning for me. Some guy that I met one time, like, those are the people that kept in touch with those would be like, I never helped this guy do anything. You know, this guy, I made him a million dollars.

He didn't go to prison. He didn't have any problems. He made a million dollars. This guy has $3 million worth of properties he's still collecting money on. He never did anything, never answered my phone calls, never wrote me a letter, never returned a letter.

Graham Stephan
Why do you think that is? I don't know. And I would love to say because they're all scumbags, but the truth is, the only correlation between any of them is me. So it can't be them. Because if everybody says you're an asshole, you're probably an asshole.

Matthew Cox
50 people say you're an asshole. At some point you have to say, I'm probably an asshole. And nobody wants to believe that about themselves. So I just think it's so funny, too, because the friends I have now are all friends I knew in prison. And it's funny.

Cause did you ever see the town? Is that a horror movie? No, it's about a bunch of bank robbers. And Ben Affleck goes to. Oh, I did.

Graham Stephan
With the masks? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Ben Affleck goes to one of his buddies and he goes, listen, I need your help. He goes, I need your help.

Matthew Cox
You can't ask me what it's about and we're gonna hurt some people. And the guy goes, whose car are we gonna take? And those are my friends now. If I said, it's 02:00 in the morning, get out of your fucking bed. I need to move right now, they would say, I'm getting my car.

That's it. I didn't have any of those friends before because the people I thought were my friends weren't my friends. And now these people that are honestly, you know, horrible people, they've done horrible things. My buddy Pete does podcasts with me. I have another.

They never asked me for money. They were say, hey, can you pay me back for this? Can you reimburse me for never? And I don't think any of my other friends ever did a fucking thing for me without wanting to know what they were, what was in it for them. I got out of prison.

It was extremely humbling, and I'd never been humbled like that before, and I'd never been appreciative of anything I'd ever done in my life, ever. I deserved it. I'm Matt Cox, bro. I mean, I deserve this. I'm amazing.

That's what I thought. So when you get out and you think you're going to live in someone's spare room for the rest of your life and take the bus, everything started falling in place. Everything. Not because I'm brilliant, but just coincidentally. Hey, Matt, you're talking about doing a true crime podcast.

Yeah, but I don't even really know what that is because YouTube wasn't even around when I went into prison, and the word podcast wasn't even invented until 2009. I'd been locked up for two or three years. So by the time I get out, I've heard about it. And I got a buddy who says, there's a guy that lives in St. Pete, down the street from me.

His name's Danny. He has a podcast. You should call him, ask. He'll probably answer some questions. He talks to guys.

He talks to. This guy, Ben Mal is on his program all the time. You know, he'll probably want you. He doesn't want me. I just got out of prison for fraud.

So I go, I call Danny. I emailed Danny. Danny called me. We talked on the phone for an hour. I bugged him for the next three or four months while I was in the halfway house.

And then one day he calls me, says, listen, man, I have an issue. I had a problem. I haven't had anybody on the program in two weeks. I'm running out of content. I'd have to interview somebody.

You said if I answered your questions. You'd come on the podcast at some point. And I was like, fuck, I did say that. So I said, all right, all right. And I drove over there and I did the podcast.

Next thing you know, Patrick Bette David's calling me, can I fly you out to here? You know, to Houston. He lived in Texas at that time. Now he's in Florida, you know. And then the next thing you know, Vlad's calling me.

And then the next thing you know, I'm going to LA and I'm doing, you know, this one and this one. And that's it. Next thing you know, somebody saying, hey, can you come to Puerto Rico and have lunch with me and a couple investors? We'll give you a couple grand and fly you out, of course. Why?

Because we saw your, your. We saw your thing and you're amazing, and we think that you've got great insight and your story is inspiring. What? I just got out of prison. I live in this chick spare room.

She's running a rooming house. In the next spare room is a cop. Like, what are you talking about? And they give me a couple grand, and then two months later, I phone out in here. If you'll do a speech, you know, we'll give you $5,500 and then 8000 and 3500.

And then I'm doing speaking engagements and I'm like, what is happening? And then I publish my book and my book starts selling, and then I start the podcast. And then Colby, that guy, bro, I would never tell him this, and I joke about it with him, but he fucking listen. And every once in a while I have somebody. Because our deal right now, people will say, bro, you're paying him way too much.

Way too much.

But I made an agreement, and I don't think I could have gotten anybody. He didn't have to work for a year. He only worked for about three months before he hit the two grand. But I know Colby, and he'd have fucking worked for nothing for a year. So.

So if you have an agreement, you have an agreement, then you always got to feel obligated to him because I don't think anybody else would have done it. I also drive him nuts, you know? What do you think Colby saw in you in the very beginning? Why did he say yes to you? He looked at the analytics.

I don't know. Look, I'll tell you one thing, which is probably, you know, an issue. Well, not an issue. It's probably wrong on people's part for the most part, you know, but for some reason, despite my past, people just believe me if I tell you, this is what's going to happen. Boom, boom, boom, boom.

They believe me. I don't know why. I just got out of prison. I got fucking 40 felonies. I've got.

I mean, I got felonies. You don't even know. You can't even. You don't even know how. What they are.

But yet I talked to him. I explained the situation, and, oh, well, I mean, I did do certain things, and I did all these things that he didn't ask for. If I'd said, hey, I want all the money to come to me, but I didn't. I said, you're going to have to go set up a corporation, and you're going to open an account, and all the money is going to go to you. I said, and I'm doing that because I want you to feel comfortable that you're going to get paid.

He goes, well, no, I'm sure you'll pay me. I said, yeah, I know, but I'd feel better not having you doubt that. And it still took him, I think, like a month or two to do it.

I think he looked at the analytics and we talked and he saw, and he said, hey, I think you could have something here. Like, you're putting up nothing and you're making $300 right now. And he's like, I think if you actually interviewed people, you'd be great. And I've seen some of your podcasts, and they're great. And it did.

It's worked out really, really well. We did it for, what, about two years before it, last year and a half. Like, that is paying all my bills and then some, you know, I'm waiting. You know, I, like. Everything's going great.

Everything's going great. So, yeah, I'm. Yeah, I don't. I don't. I think it was just prison was such a humbling experience that, you know, that I absolutely deserved and had coming.

I don't think I deserve 26 years, but I definitely deserve to go. How did you get to the point of prison? Oh, I'm sorry. Because as of right now, through our story, you had not quite gotten caught yet. I think they had just gotten their suspicions.

Graham Stephan
You created these fake identities. Remember, I had somebody in Orlando, and I had somebody in. I think it was Clearwater. I'm in Tampa, and they're running scams. Well, the girl that was doing the scam and Clearwater, her name was Allison, and great scam.

Matthew Cox
We refinanced the property several times. She goes into a closing. I'd had her change her hair because she was Rosita Perez. And so she had. She dyed her hair black, right?

Her hair was lighter than either one of your hair, right? Lighter than mine. But she dyed it black and took a photo. I make a fake id, goes into one closing, fine, no problem. Gets.

Gets a check for, like, 100 grand, and then goes to the next closing, signs all the paperwork. But the woman, the closing agent, looked at her id and said, this doesn't look like you. Now, keep in mind, a couple days before, she had changed her hair back to being light brown with highlights, but it was still her photo. Does that make sense? Yeah, it's still her.

So she said, it just doesn't look like you. You don't look like a Rosita Perez. And even though Allison actually said that, she called another closing agent into the room, and she looked at it, and she goes, yeah, that's her. She goes, no, something's not right. She said, I'm gonna let you close.

I'm not gonna give you a check. She said, I will. I'll let you know. I'm gonna make some phone calls. She made some phone calls and contacted, I don't even know, to be honest, exactly what she did.

But she got to the original owner and realized there was a mortgage on the property, and, of course, we'd satisfy that loan. So it very quickly comes unraveled. Somebody pulls their credit, they see a bunch of inquiries, they start making phone calls. They find out she's had another closing, and they put a flag of on the check we have. So Allison comes out, she tells me what just happened.

Graham Stephan
What's the scam exactly? It's just multiple closings you're getting, right? The scam is she went and rented a house. We satisfy his loan on the house that he has with his bank, and then the deed, we just transfer the deed, right? I just make a new deed, file that it looks like he sold her the house for 200 something thousand.

Matthew Cox
She then borrows multiple mortgages. One of them goes through, she gets a check. The next one, she doesn't get the check. So she then gets in my car. We're driving.

She's like, this is what just happened. I'm like, oh, that's done. That's over. And she's like, no, no, we still have the one check. I said, yeah, but we're not moving forward.

It's over. You know? And I get her point of view is she didn't have any money. Like, she's gonna get half this money. And so she's like, no, no, no.

We gotta, we can go give it to Travis, which was my buddy who was doing the one in Orlando. And so we called Travis. I explained what's going on. He goes, okay, so you think the checks good? I said, no, I don't think the check is good, but keep in mind, I've got money.

It's easy to be cocky when you've got money. So I'm saying, tell him, no, no, no. And he goes, man, listen, I'm cool. I'll deposit it. It's not going to be a problem.

I remember he told me, he's, man, you're shaking like a little girl. He said, calm down. I said, oh, I don't think it's okay. He deposits the check four or five days later. Took, used to be, took place four or five days for a check to clear.

So she'd endorsed it it, and he'd signed it. So four or five days later, I call him. I said, hey, what's going on? And he says, listen, I was going to stop buying, get money from the bank, but the bank manager called me, and he told me that they needed me to endorse the check also, because it's over $100,000. And I thought, that's not, something's wrong.

Something's wrong with that. I've deposited many, many checks for over $100,000 in someone else's name, and they never had to see anybody signed. So I said, something's wrong. Don't go back to the bank. And he goes, no, I'm pulling in right now.

There's nobody here. There's no cops. He pulls in, he hangs up the phone, he goes in, he gets arrested. I go get him an attorney. I get him out.

But I didn't go, like, I gave it to his brother in law. You can, here's the money. So get him out on bond the next day. Get him an attorney. Hey, listen.

And I mean, this guy, he worked me pretty good, because, like, literally, he's like, look, I don't, obviously, I can't do this anymore, but I want to open up a business that's gonna cost 25 grand. Of course it. Of course, Travis, here's 25 grand. You're just giving him this money? Of course.

He just arrested. My fear is he's gonna cooperate. Yeah, so you don't wanna do anything fraudulent. I totally get that. I don't want you to.

You're already in trouble. Just keep my name out of your mouth. Don't say don't. Were you afraid of a wire, though, of saying anything that you wouldn't want them to know about? I mean, it seems like that's a very.

Graham Stephan
Just like a. Let's meet in person. You lift up your shirt. Yeah, I mean, there may have been some of that. I don't recall exactly, but I wasn't too, too concerned.

Matthew Cox
Although he probably was wired. But keep in mind, too, I'm not. I don't have to be too, too concerned, because all he's got to do is open his mouth, and I'm done. Yeah. So I give him 25 grand.

I buy him a truck. I get him a buoy. He starts, like, a trim tree trimming business, which he runs to this day. Um, I'm paying his rent, I'm paying his electric. He's coming in every couple, every week or so, saying, listen, I hate to ask you, I need $1,500 for this.

Of course you do. Travis, I'm embarrassed that you had to ask. I should have offered. My bad. Here's your money is the money.

Do not mention my name to them. Keep in mind, he's being told. He's telling me. What his lawyer is telling him is that he's not going to have to go to jail if he does, maybe six months. And I was like, that's fine.

I'll maintain everything you have for as long as you're in jail. But the truth is, he got arrested. And the next day, he met with the detectives and was cooperating. And they put together a task force because it's multiple counties, so multiple counties. Now I'm running scams in multiple counties.

So multiple counties get together. They put together a task force. This goes on for months. I'm still committing fraud one day. And there's all kinds of stuff that happen, right?

This would be forever. So one day, a police officer that I know, a sheriff's deputy, comes into my office. His name's Steve Sutton. And he walks in, and he says, hey, Matt, can I talk to you? And I go, I'm like, yeah, what's up?

I remember he's completely dressed. And I was like, yeah, what's up? And he said, I used to date this woman on the Tampa police department. I said, okay. He said, she's a detective, and she was on a task force over the last few months.

And I went, all right. He said, they just handed over the task force to the FBI. I said, all right. He said, the task force was on you. And he said, do you know somebody who was arrested in Orlando and I'm like, yeah.

He said, okay. She came and told me not to talk to you because the FBI is probably going to come arrest you in a few days. You're already on probation. His name came up because he'd bought a bunch of properties from me, right? So.

And he bought some properties from some of the fake people. Right? Like, we refinanced it, and then he just took over the mortgage, that kind of thing, because he thought, hey, I can turn this. I can make this into something. We gave him a little bit of money.

Like, they're not all going to foreclosure, necessarily or whatever. Or he's. We bought a property from him that. So his name was in one or two transactions, so. Plus, I'd done about a million, at least a million.

And between he and his ex wife, $2 million worth of. So he knew what was going on. Listen, his ex wife bought, but I want to say eight owner occupied duplexes. We close within a day. Wow.

Jack Selby
Okay, so it's a quick question. You keep naming these people first and last. Like, have all of these people gone down, or does any part of you. Oh, no. Do you consider, like, okay, well, you.

Matthew Cox
Know, maybe no, but keep in mind, too, like, I've reached out to Steve Sutton. I've never heard from him. I got no loyalty to you. Steve Sutton used to work at the Hillsborough county as a sheriff. He actually has listed all my indictments as an unnamed co conspirator.

It's just. It's just ss or something. Yeah, exactly. Ss. I know who that is.

You know, like it. Like, they'd be like, dw. Dave Walker. My Dave Walker's dead, by the way. Which is sad, because I always liked Dave, even though he never contacted me when I was locked up.

Just a prick thing to do. Even though I wrote him letters, never responded. But I did. Like, Dave. Dave actually died, like, two weeks before I went to the halfway house.

He was never in good shape. He was an older guy. He was always in his late sixties by the time I got out. And then other people, like, I've seen out, and I've been like, hey, what's going on? Kelly Bailey.

Like I said, a ton of bad loans and knew all of them were fraudulent and actually still works to this day as a broker in Tampa. I see her one time. I'm like, kelly, hey. And I'm hanging out with another guy I know. And he's like, hey, look, it's Matt.

And she's like. She goes, hey. And turn around and walked away. Listen, sister. You know what I'm saying?

Graham Stephan
Yeah. Like, you could have been in prison. You should have gone to prison. She wouldn't have done much time. She'd have gotten a couple years.

Matthew Cox
But do you see what I'm saying? It's like, just because you have the veil of legitimacy doesn't mean. And then it's funny, too, because I've had people say, yeah, bro, you throw the. Aren't you afraid about. Aren't you afraid of being sued?

Sue me. I'd love to be sued. I'll pull out the documents to show that everything I'm showing is 100% true. I'll probably get some people in the St. Pete times or Tampa Tribune to write an article about it.

Now you'll really be fucked. So nobody ever says anything. And you know. You know that, like, if I was saying negative things, if I was saying completely wrong things about Graham, Graham would probably sue me. You need to shut up, because you.

This is all not correct, but whatever they. I'm saying is 100% true. So you don't hear anything interesting. So the police officer was tipping you off because he was somewhat involved in. He did want to protect you a little.

He did? Yeah. Yeah. Which is funny. That's what bothers me.

Cause I like Steve. You know, we would go to. Steve would wear overall. Overalls. Steve was a good old boy.

So he shows up. He's like, you know, Matt, like, I don't know what's gonna happen. What should I do? I said, bro, just, if they ask you, tell them you came to me. I'm a mortgage broker.

You asked me to do a loan. I did a loan. Like, how? You don't know anything. He told me, it seems like you're.

Graham Stephan
Talking to all these people that could be wearing wine. Yeah, I'm pretty much done. I know I'm done. Okay. I'm deeply.

Matthew Cox
I'm already on probation. This is not gonna go over well in front of my judge. He didn't seem happy when he gave me the three years, and I've just stolen $11.5 million while on federal probation. Like, it's not gonna end well for me. Steve's like, what are you gonna do?

And I said, oh, I'm leaving. I'm leaving. I was saying. I said, you heard me say. I was like, I can't go to prison.

Look at me. I'm adorable. And this is. This is 20 years ago. To a guy with a life sentence, I might as well be wearing a dress.

I have blonde hair, fair skin. No, I can't go to prison. So I saw Shawshank. You saw what happened? That dude's six foot two.

So I take off on the run. Well, and with a girl that I was dating. What's it like to be on the run? Like, how do you decide to pick up and leave? Could you have done that?

Just. Is it like you get home and you stuff a suitcase, you're like, we gotta go right now? That's exactly what I did. The girl I was dating shows up, and I'm stuffing a couple of duffel bags full of clothes and money. Cause I probably had.

Well, I had about 80 grand at that point, so. In cash. So I'm stuffing it in. There she comes, shows up. Because I hadn't.

We were supposed to go out on a date, like, Friday night, and I hadn't called her all day and returned a call. And so she showed up, came by my house, saw my car, walked inside, and I just turned around and told her she was. What's going. What the hell? What's going on?

I just told her, boom, this is what's happening. And I had only been dating her a couple months, right? Not even six weeks. You felt like you could trust her? I didn't feel like I could trust her.

But nobody I tell right now is gonna say, I'm calling the cops right now. They're just gonna be like, oh, wow, you got some problems, and leave. That's not what she says. She says, well, I wanna come with you. I was like, well, we don't even know each other.

And she's like, no, you don't understand. I think I'm in love with you. I wanna come with you. I was like, okay, well, I don't think this is ever gonna become love for me. I was like, and honestly, I have my own set of problems.

And I always look back like, it was such a huge mistake to bring her with me. Why didn't you just lie to her and tell her, hey, I'm rethinking this relationship. We gotta break up. Yeah, we gotta break up. I'm in love with somebody else.

Graham Stephan
I'm moving out. Like, just some story. In retrospect, that's a good idea, right? But, you know. You know how many things I change?

Matthew Cox
Yeah. You know, it was. Look, if that's the only stupid decision that you think I've made, you're missing a whole bunch of stuff, so. And I remember her art. Part of our argument was, listen, you're gonna go and you're gonna steal a bunch of money, right?

I was like, yeah. And she said, okay, well, I could help you. And I was. And the thing is, look, like, most people can't up and just leave. That's why, guys, you'll give them ten years in prison, and they'll.

They'll turn themselves in at the gate. Like, they'll be released, and they'll show up two months later when they're like, okay, well, you got ten years in prison. Show up on May 13, and they'll be there. Like, you're gonna go, did you just show up to get ten years? You're getting ten years.

You give me ten years, you're gonna have to come catch me. Like, I'm not showing up at the fucking prison. Doesn't that make your sentence worse or. No, not really. You got sentenced.

They might. They might. If the prosecutor is pissed, he might charge you and you get a couple years, but you're already doing ten. Listen, I know guys that have left prison and got caught after they've escaped. They got from, like, a camp.

So they don't call it escape, they call it absconding caught. And they lose, like, 30 days gain time or good time. Like, they don't even recharge them. And I know multiple people. I knew one guy that caught, got caught in, like, Italy or Spain, and they just put him on a plane, flew him back.

He lost. Listen, he lost, like, 34 days good time, and two months later, he got caught stealing some two or three pieces of bread out of the chow hall, and they took away 54 days, 30 for the escape. He was gone for a year and a half, but he and a half. But for the bread, he got 450. And I've known other guys, people in the comment will say, like, oh, I knew a guy and he escaped, and he got an extra year added on or two years.

You know, that does happen. It just depends. So often, though, is that the people escape and they're never caught. I doubt. I mean, I think most, 99% of the time they get caught.

Most people don't. You know, this is gonna sound. Most people don't have my skillset. Keep in mind, by this point, I've figured out how to go into the DMV as Graham Stephan and get a driver's license issued as Graham Stephan in the state of Florida, South Carolina, North Carolina, Alabama, Texas, you name it. I've had 27 driver's licenses issued to me in seven different states.

I would get tickets as people. I've gone to traffic school with somebody else. I got so many tickets in the guy's name, because you drive like a maniac when you don't care about the points. So. So what happens is I talk to this girl, we run up my credit cards, of course, you know, I don't want to leave any money on the table.

So I run up my American Express for 30 or 40 grand. We're buying. We. I go get another Audi. I get like an Audi.

I think it's an Audi. A eight or something. It's like, it was a, it was a four door. Is that wrong? What's the four door like?

It's big. It's got like the four, the six, the eight. Right? It could be. You do all of this as Matt Cox?

Yeah, I do. But I get a paper plate. It's funny, they're like, oh, we're going to transfer your tag. I said, no, I want a dealer plate because I know I got 30 days and it only comes back to the dealer. So we do that.

We pack that car so full of stuff. I got multiple computers. Like, I don't want to spend the cash I have now. We've got probably, we got a ton of stuff in real estate, and we've probably got a million or so in the bank. But I couldn't get it out in time.

You can't just walk in and say, I want $100,000. They won't give it to you. So I had to have people go in and ask for 50 00, 30 00, 70 00 on five or six different bank accounts. We could only get. I only had a day.

A day and a couple hours to get out 80 grand. So that's what I get, 80 grand, run up my credit cards, and on Sunday night, I leave. I go immediately to Atlanta. We rent a house from a guy named Michael Eckert. It was like a $200,000 house.

I make an id as Michael Eckert. So I'm Michael Eckert now. I go downtown and I satisfy the loan. He had two loans with bank of America on the house, so I satisfied both of those. And he didn't know about this?

Oh, no, he just made the mistake of renting to me. And so basically the city is under the impression or whatever, like, the loan bureaus are under the impression that the loan has been satisfied, although it actually hasn't. And then you could borrow against it, basically. Because what happens is when you go, if I have a loan from Wells Fargo and they have a lien on my house, and I create a fake satisfaction of lien from Wells Fargo, looks just like Wells Fargo's and I record it. Now they mail it back to Wells Fargo.

But you have to understand, if you pulled 50 Wells Fargo liens, there'd be 50 different addresses of where they go. They have so many different departments, so many different banks, so many different. Like, they don't all go. Like, they get recorded and they mail them back, but they don't all go the same place. So when I record that satisfaction of mortgage, I just put an address to some abandoned house, or to a UPS store, or to a PO box, or to whatever.

They mail it back. They record it, they mail it back. Wells Fargo never gets that, so they think their mortgage is still on the house. So then if I go and I apply for a loan with bank of America, they send an abstractor down there. I mean, really, it's the title company.

But for simplicity sake, an abstractor goes down. They look at the title, they say, oh, look, this person bought this house, had a mortgage, paid it off. So I'm going to create an abstraction report, a title report, that says that John Doe owns the house free and clear. So when bank of America gets it, they go, oh, look, he owns the house free and clear. Yes, we'll lend him $150,000 on the house.

But really, I have a $200,000 mortgage with Wells Fargo. Whoever, it's still, they. It's just not there anymore. What I do is I go to Michael Eckert, I rent a house from him. I go satisfy his two loans with bank of America.

I then call, because Michael Eckert has, like, even though I used a different Social Security number for him, I didn't use his. Obviously, I don't have it. So I create a profile for him. I got a couple credit cards, asked him, but I didn't have six months through the credit score. So you don't really have anything, right?

I call a couple, three hard money lenders. Each one of them comes out the house. They look at the house, they go, yeah, it's worth about 200,000. What do you want to do? I said, I want to borrow $150,000.

And they go, I'll lend you 150, sir. So then I close on the following Monday with one, Tuesday with the next guy, and maybe later Tuesday, that day with the next guy. So within a day or two of each other, I close with all of them. They're going to prepare the documents, and then the title company is going to prepare the documents and mail those documents, those mortgages, to public records. So it's going to take a few days for those to show up.

And even when they show up, they just record them. Nobody at public records goes, hey, wait a second. There's three mortgages on this house. That's. You can have three mortgages.

You can have a first mortgage, a heloC, a second mortgage. You can. Doesn't each loan say it's going to be the first mortgage? The actual document doesn't. The placement of it, the title company promises you with the title policy, that you'll be first.

The document's just a mortgage. There's nothing that's going to say, like, who do we put is first, who's second? Who's. Wow. You know, I don't know what it is now, but it wasn't then.

It was just. It was a lien. Okay? Right. So, um.

Because let's face it, if it's a second lien and then they pay off the first, it become that second is now the first. Right? So I do this. I close within a couple days. I get roughly 400, 450,000, let's say, on those.

On that, I take that money I deposit into the bank. By this point, I've now got a few real ids and real bank accounts. And I start pulling that money out in cash, like there's no cryptocurrency. There's no. I don't know what.

I probably. Now I realize I probably. I could have gone and bought diamonds immediately or gold or something. I didn't know. I don't know any of that.

I had to go to prison to learn all that. So what I do is I know cash, get cash out. So I've got multiple ids. Becky has multiple ids. And we're just going into different bank accounts, cash and checks.

6000, 8000. And if I she cashes a check for 6000 on my account, then the bank says, hold on a second. Like, this is a new account. This is weird. Guys got 100,000 in the account.

Somebody's pulled out money two days in a row. So what do they do? They call me. Hi, we have somebody at the trying to cash a check for $6,000. Like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a.

That's Rebecca so and so. She's okay. They cash it. It's not like I'm stealing money out of a real person. I open the account, I put the money there.

They have nobody to call. So we do that. We give, get whatever, 400 some odd thousand dollars out of the bank. We buy a new car we've obviously already bought by this point. We've got a new car.

We took that car, the Audi. We left it at a police substation in the parking lot. So somebody, I'm sure, got that. So we get the money out. Why not just keep the money you have, like, let's say 500 grand, and just say, we could start a legitimate business on this, make sure everyone's paid every month, and we got a lot of money to work with.

Right. But keep in mind that I've also, at some point, those mortgages are going to go into foreclosure. Michael Eckert is going to figure it out. They're going to track the money. So at some point, I have to take it all out in cash.

I can put it back somewhere, but right now, I can't. I need to get it out in cash. So I get that money out in cash while I'm getting it out in cash, there's multiple times when I got stopped, I got questioned. I actually, one time went into a bank, and I was in the bank, and the guy, he actually was trying to cash a check for $29,000, which was stupid. I was always under the 10,000 at one time.

I got frustrated. I was like, I'm just going to cash this one for 29. And I actually went to a cash transaction bank where they can do large. And we went there, and I tried to get them to give me 29 grand, I'm sure you know, and they questioned me like, they were really. It was under the name Scott Cugnut.

And so I'm trying to cash the check, and they were like, well, what do you need the cash for? Why don't you deposit in your own bank account? Because my bank's in Florida, and it'll take ten days for it to go through. Like, it's good. The check is good, right?

The cashier? Yeah, yeah, it's good. But why do you need it? I was like, well, I mean, I cash people's checks. Like, I work for a labor company, and we have laborers, and typically, they get charged 10% to cash their checks.

But I know the checks are good because it's with my company. So I just cash them, and they're like, okay. You know, he keeps coming back. He knows something's wrong. Keeps coming.

The manager keeps coming back, coming back. So at some point, he's in the back, and my phone rings, and I look at it, and I don't recognize the number. So I answered. I go, hello? And the person goes, hi, this is Kimberly from Suntrust bank.

Is this Michael Eckert? And I'm sitting there as Scott Cugnow trying to cash a check. And I go, yes, this is. And it's. She's.

She's behind like a glass somewhere. And I'm sitting in the guy's, like, little cubicle. And I'm like, but I know I can. You know it's a glass cubicle, right? I'm like, yes.

And she says, hi, we have someone here trying to cash a check, a rather large check. And I was just wondering if you could verify the check. And I said, oh. And she said it was for $29,000. I said, oh, yeah, yeah, that would be Scott Cugnow.

And she said, okay, so it's good? I said, yeah, absolutely. By all means, you can cash it. And she goes, okay, thank you. I said, hey, by the way, how did you get my number?

The check had originally been cut from a check from a title company that we bank with. So we called the title company, and they gave us your phone number. I hope that's okay. Absolutely. No problem.

You're just curious. Hang up the phone. The manager walks out with a woman that I'm assuming was Kimberly. She never said anything. And they sat down, and he counted out the money twice.

And I remember I stood up and I'm shoving the money in my. In my, you know, pockets. And he says, mister Cugnow? And I said, yeah. He said, I want to mention that I feel very apprehensive about this transaction.

I go, really? What is it exactly? And he goes, I can't put my finger on it. I go, it'll come to you. And I just walk off.

And so when I leave, we got out all the money and the FBI showed up. Or a secret service, I think, showed up, like a week or two later. Were you concerned that your voice was the same? No. What do you mean?

Jack Selby
Like, because you're answering the phone as someone else as well as speaking to them as someone else, but you're using, like, you have this, you know, a very recognizable voice. It never came up. Like, first of all, I talked to Kimberly, right? So then she walks right there. That's something.

Matthew Cox
She never talked. I don't know if it was her. Like, maybe she could have recognized me. But she said nothing. And keep in mind, too, most of the time when he did, he walked up and just counted out the money.

I've got the money. At this point, when I'm like, what is it exactly? Like, that's all I said is all she heard was, what is it exactly? And it'll come to you. So she never said anything.

I just. Did you ever have to use different voices? I've done that where they've called. Like, if it's their calling to verify employment, which sounds silly, but most of the time, Becky is the one who calls back, or you're calling back, and it's not even the same person that you're calling. Right.

You know, what voices would you use? I always do, like, the whole 20 law. Hey, you know what can. What's going on? You know, you try and throw somebody here, a few.

The voice. I can't do the voices. I can't even remember. I just remember one. I did a really, really thick.

Listen, I had a title company one time who showed up to deliver. So this is. See, this is the problem is, like, you understand that typically, Fannie Mae doesn't want to let you get out more than $100,000, which on a refi. Okay. So what I would do is I would put a.

I would put a lien from a lender on some of the properties. So they have to pay off this property. They might give me a check for 30 grand, and they would mail $110,000 to the lender to, like, let's say a post office box or, like, a UPS box. One time, the title company showed up to deliver it, and then they called.

They called the lender, or they called me. They called the lender and left a message, and I had to call back as the lender. So I called back with a real heavy accent. Yeah. Because I don't even know who I'm talking to, but I knew I had gone to the closing.

I just, you know, did a whole, you know. Yeah, well. And she's like, well, I tried to bring by your office, and I said, oh, well, no, no. I think I said, we got a. One of them mailboxes things.

And she's like, I know. I was just wondering if I could maybe bring it by the office. I was like, oh, sweetie, where? I'm. I'm out of Florida.

You know, I'm in Orlando, Florida. Oh, okay. So we just. We just collect. We just have everything sent there.

I'm just not giving them out to my, you know, I'm just not giving out my address to just anybody. And she's like, oh, I understand. I understand. Then that was it. It was, you know, silly.

They're quick conversations. It's silly. I feel silly doing it. And it almost never happened. I typically had somebody that would call.

Anyway, the thing with the guy, what's his name? Right? Like the one where I get the 29,000. So we take off. Then I go.

At that point, we start surveying homeless people.

I see the judgment in your face, Jack. So I'm surveying homeless people at this point. And that happened because, you know, we're using these fake Social Security numbers for kids, right? And you can't get a driver's license in the number. You could get an id, but not a driver's license for some reason.

I don't know what the problem is, but every time I went in to get a driver's license, we couldn't get it. But if you set an id, they would give it to you. So we're like, we need to be able to get. We need to be able to do what you're saying. Start a real life as somebody.

And it was like, well, we need somebody's identity that isn't using it. And so it was like, okay, we need to figure that out. Like, who? And it was like, well, prisoners or people with mental patients. You know, mental patients.

Like, who? How do you get to those people? And I remember while we were. Becky and I are discussing it, I look over, and there's a guy standing on the side of the road with a will work for food sign. And I went like, that guy?

And she was like. She said hobo. Because I know who says hobo. She's the hobo. And I was like, yeah, I've not heard that term.

Graham Stephan
He's the hobo time. So we pull over, she goes into, like, a subway, you know, sandwich shop. She goes in there, and she. And so I go across the street, and I talk to the guy, and I say, hey, listen, man, can I ask you some questions? I give him $20.

Matthew Cox
I said, he goes, yeah, what's up? I said, when was the last time you were gainfully employed? Like, five, six years. Do you think you'll be gainfully employed in the next year or two? And he's like, no, this is it for me.

And I said, well, do you have a. I started just asking him all kinds of. Do you have a record? Do you have a driver's license? Is it suspended?

Is it this? All these questions. Gave him another $40 and left. And I went back to Becky, and I said this. I'm gonna start surveying homeless people.

I said, this guy, he's got a. Not even suspended. It's just an expired driver's license. He's never had a DUI. He's just got.

He's just an alcoholic. Like, that's. He lives in the woods, you know, that's what he told me so during that conversation, the reason I came up with the survey was he actually made a joke. He is not. It wasn't a joke.

He goes, what are you doing a survey? And I go, I said, you get a lot of surveyors out here? And he goes, sometimes we get social workers, people from the Salvation army. And I thought, nice. Nice.

Okay, cool. Like, good to know. So I go back home, I make a statistical survey form. It's got, like, 17 questions. Ask for your name, date of birth, Social Security number, mother's maiden name, county and state you were born in.

What identification have you ever had issued? You ever had a passport? You ever served in the military? You ever had a claim? Social Security.

Social Security disability. Do you currently receive any benefits? You know, boom, boom, boom, boom. Anything I could think of that I might need, I make. Print out 50 of them, put them on a clipboard, make myself a little salvation, or make myself a little badge that said statistical surveyor.

Took my wanted photo, printed it out, glued it on, ran it through a laminate, little laminate machine. I had, you know, put a little. Had a little clip thing on it. Very professional. Went out and started surveying homeless people.

I would get their information. I would go back wherever county they were from. I would print out an application for a birth certificate, and I would fill it out. One of the things they asked for is a copy of his driver's license. Well, I would make a driver.

You know, you go into. You know, you make a. What looks like a driver's license. It's not, but I'd make one that looked like a driver's license, make a copy of it, mail it to them with $20, and I get a certified copy of their birth certificate. I'd then take.

I'd make a fake employer id, and I would mail that plus an SS five form to Social Security, and I'd get a copy of his Social Security number. So I've got a Social Security number, his birth certificate. I would register to vote in his name. I would order a copy of his high school transcripts. I would get a couple credit cards in his name.

He has almost no credit. Or maybe a couple medical bills, which I paid off. And then I'd turn around, and I'd go into the local DMV, and I'd say, hey, I want. They. They.

You know, they want two forms of idea. One a primary, two secondaries, and proof of residency. I have that. I have a. Because I would make a fake lease agreement.

Plus, the other thing that counts for that is if you register to vote as them in that county, it shows residency. So I've got this, this, this your birth certificate. And they go, great. Stand over there, get a picture taken. You got a driver's license.

Sometimes I'd have to take the test. Sometimes they would have. Their license was suspended, and I'd have to pay four or $500 again, their license unsuspended. I have to mail the money off four states away, wherever they've had a driver's license. And I go in.

As long as they didn't have a driver's license in that state, I could get a driver's license. So I got a driver's license. I got more credentials than this guy's got on him. I can go up in bank accounts. I can buy houses.

I would buy a car. So you're more this person than this person actually is. He couldn't if you had approved, doc. He couldn't provide anything. And I know everything.

I know where you were raised. I know which high school you. And one of the questions was, what high school? Because one of the things people don't realize is part you can use for secondary identification. Your high school transcripts.

There's all these things, and I've got all real stuff, so none of this is fake. I buy a car in his house. In his name. I buy a house in his name. So I did this with, whatever.

A couple dozen people at least. At least. And this one guy, Gary Sullivan. I went to North Carolina. I was living in North Carolina.

I went to South Carolina, and I bought two houses in his name. One of them, I bought a house for 200. Like, I want to say, it was like $230,000. Let's say, put 10% down, convinced the owners to own or finance it to me. And right after the closing, two weeks later, I went down to public records.

I satisfied their loan and the wraparound loan, because they did a wraparound around their mortgage, around their original mortgage, satisfied both of them. I then turn around and I borrow. I also bought another house for, like, 110,000. So I borrow $1.3 million on both these houses. I open a bunch of bank accounts, and I start pulling money out of these banks.

I refinanced this one house over and over again. It's funny, because this isn't on the bigger house. This is on the house. That was 110,000. As I was refinancing it, one of the title companies made a phone call, or they called another, the original title company to get the warranty deed because they wanted to issue a set.

You know, they can reissue title. They only have to search back to the last. And I just bought the house. SOmeHow or another they call to get the original hud. The HuD I had given them showed that I paid cash.

They get the original hud, it shows there's a mortgage. So they know the document I gave them was false. Like I couldn't account for them calling the title company. So I was like, oh my God. So they end up calling Washington Mutual.

They call Washington Mutual. They tell Washington mutual who had the, the first mortgage on it. Now keep in mind by this point, they've also done a search. Washington mutual knows that they're in second position. They know there's a mortgage ahead of them.

So the, they have a lawyer for, and this isn't the first time I've been called by a lawyer. Sure. So I get called. So Gary Sullivan's phone rings. I'm in, wherever, I'm in Charlotte, North Carolina.

The phone rings and he's like, hey, you know, this is whatever, you know, Todd, I'm a lawyer with Washington Mutual. I'm like, yeah, Todd, what's up? He's like, we were contacted by this title company, discovered our loan on the property. There's another mortgage in front of ours and we're supposed to be in first position. And I went, okay.

And he said, this is an issue. So I'm wondering how this happened and what we're going to do about it. Before I contact, he goes, he goes and as he's talking, I said, you haven't contacted anybody the authorities yet, have you? And he goes, no, not yet, but that's my next call unless we can figure something out. I said, you know what, Todd?

I said, listen, let me go to my, im going to go right now. Im going to talk to my lawyer. I have a corporate lawyer which was in South Carolina. Let me call him. Im going to call you back.

I can pay you back. I said, if I pay you back, we dont need to, this doesnt need to go any further, does it? He goes, you can pay me back. It doesnt have to go any further. I said, okay.

I said, give me an hour. Hang up the phone, call my corporate lawyer. While Im driving all the way back there, Becky's don't go, don't go. And I'm like, I'm in the middle of a multi million dollar scam. I'm going like, I'll pay, give him 100.

She's like, just keep the money. I'm, I'll give him the 110,000. We've got 700,000, 800,000 still in the bank. So let me just pay him off. How do you know they won't call?

They won't call. I've done this before and I've done it in Tampa. Been caught multiple times, just paid them back. So, you know, I didn't get into those. So I drive all the way back, I get my call my corporate lawyer, because they had opened up a corporation where I was laundering money through opening bank accounts.

So I call him and he says, okay, listen. He said, my partner is a criminal defense attorney, so I'm going to set up a meeting real quick. By the time you get here, we'll both meet. Meet with you. I said, okay.

So I meet with them, I walk in, I sit down, I say, hey. They go, okay, Gary, what's going on? I said, here's what's happening. And I tell them, I bought this property, and this property, I bought this property. I've got like five mortgages on it.

I forget how many might have been four or five. I said, washington mutual just figured out that there's a mortgage in front of them, them, and they want me to pay them off. And he said, okay, well, you said there's also a couple mortgages behind them, too. And I said, yes, but they don't know about those. They go, okay, so can you pay off the first mortgage?

I said, yes, but I need you to call him and get him to say, to say that this is in writing, that they're not going to contact the authorities, that this is he. Well, why would they? It's a creative financing error. I'm pretty sure it's not. What did you tell them?

Graham Stephan
The reason, why did you just pretend like I don't know what's going on? I told him that the brokers, I always tell them, like, like, look, I went into the bank and the broker said, look, I can, I told him I needed to borrow like half a million dollars because I was flipping properties. He said, I can get you half a million. It might have to go through a couple different banks, but I have some buddies, we can all get you mortgages. I said, I kind of knew it was fucked up.

Matthew Cox
I said, I knew, but look, let me, I just want to get out of this. And they're like, okay, well, we're, it's a creative financing error. You didn't know what you were doing. You're not a mortgage broker, you're not a professional. Let's just pay this guy off.

I said, okay, he calls up, he says, listen, todd, you know, Gary said he can pay you off. He said, okay. I said, okay, I'm going to go to the bank and get. How much is it exactly? And we haggle over it because they wanted to charge me, and I actually paid everything.

Like, I didn't haggle. But my lawyer's like, oh, he shouldn't have to pay that. He shouldn't have. I'm like, just, what are you doing? I don't care.

He's like, you know, he's like, oh, something about there's. There's yield spread on the back. Fucking pay it. Like, he's like, I end up paying whatever, 110, 115,000. So I go to the bank and I get the money.

I come back there, and they're like, tell him to drop it off. At a Wells Fargo. No, at a Washington mutual bank. I said, bro, I'm not doing that. Are you fucking crazy?

I'm not going to go into it. They're going to call the cops. Like, no, I'm not going to do that. I'll give it to you. And he goes, okay.

He calls back, I have it. I'll just. I'll send it. I have it. I'll send you a copy.

He make. I'll make a copy and fax it to you. Okay? So we're done with that. And I'm like, I remember he said, well, okay, well, Gary, we got a problem here.

I said, what's that? He said, well, this was actually before I went to go get the money. So once I said, okay, let me go get the money. He goes, well, wait a minute. There's an issue.

You've still got multiple mortgages on these. This property after you pay them back. I said, right? He said, do you have the money? I said, yeah, I have the money.

He said, okay, well, we're going to have to pay these back. I said, no, no, I'm not going to pay them back. And he goes, well, what if they find out? And I go, he goes, what if they find out that there's other mortgages, these other mortgage lenders find out that there's other mortgages on the property? I go, then I leave town.

And he goes, Gary, Gary, Gary. He said, you can't just leave town. They've got your name, your Social Security number, your date of birth. He said, the FBI will find you. And I go, you're assuming my name is Gary Sullivan.

And I mean, they weren't. They both look at each other and he goes, well, I guess we'll we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. I write, I go, my immediately problem is getting rid of these people. Let me go get the money. What type of lawyers are these that would take on this little better call Saul sort of, right?

Like, like little town, small time lawyer in Columbia, South Carolina. But they're cool with it. Or they're like, they wouldn't say they were cool with it, but they're also not gonna see their client in. Yeah, he can't call up and say, my clients. He's not gonna do that.

He's already saying there's just a creative, uh, a creative error, a creative financing error. Like, he's already downplaying it. So I go, I get the money, come back, give him the money. He makes a copy. He sends him a fax.

He tells them he's overnighting it. They're happy. Um, and I remember I got up to leave, and the guy goes, well, I didn't go get up to leave, but he said, uh, listen. He said, we need to talk about my, my fee. I said, okay, you've worked about an hour.

I said, how much is that? And he said it. I think 1500 would cover it. I said, okay, no problem. And I get.

I start count pulling out cash. And he goes, well, we don't take cash. And I go, you take a check from me after what you just heard? And he goes, I'll take the cash. And I thought I gave him the cash, got up and left.

Graham Stephan
Oh, my gosh. Kept pulling out money. Ended up pulling out of that scam, like six or $700,000. And one day I walk into a bank as Gary Sullivan and two sheriff's deputies walk up behind me and handcuffs me. And so they handcuffed me in the bank.

Matthew Cox
And I'm like, fuck. And they go, mister Sullivan, we're detaining you. Come with us. And they walk me and listen, the bank, there's like, lines. There's like, 2030 people in the bank.

Like, what the fuck? So they walk me into the manager's office. They sit me down. They say, we're waiting for a detective to show up. I thought it was the FBI.

FBI was going to show up. Because I don't really know the difference between an agent and a detective. Like, I don't the terms that I say. And I know now, I didn't know then, right? So I remember thinking, FBI showing up.

And listen, by this point, there's been 30 articles, 30, 40 articles on me. You know, they raided my office. FBI raided my office. When I left, when I got the 400,000 in Atlanta, there's a bunch of articles secret service is after me. Like, it's.

It's heating up. There's John and Jane Doe warrants. They're calling us the Bonnie and Clyde of bank fraud. I mean, it's. She's a poster child for identity theft.

I mean, it's heating up. So I end up waiting there. And the detective walks in. He's like a gray suit. He's probably in his late twenties.

And he walks in and he says, hey, Mister Sullivan, you know, he sits down, he said, here's what's going on. Wachovia bank says that you're committing. You're doing something called a shotgunning scam. And that you borrow the money so fast that they. They couldn't catch it.

And now you're removing the money in cash. Why are you removing the money in cash? And I was like, why? And I explained to him about. I cashed checks for these guys that work at the company I work for, and it's a labor company.

And by this point, I said, look, do I have to have the cuffs on? Am I under arrest? He's like, oh, no, no. We're just in hating you. I said, well, I feel like I'm under arrest.

He goes, we'll take those off. Takes them off. So when I say I work for a labor company, I pull out my business card. And he says, okay. And he says, I said, I cashed a lot of these guys checks.

So I said, also a lot of these guys, I'm flipping houses. I buy houses and fix them up. He goes, oh, yeah, that's right. You own another house on Shady Lane or whatever. I'm like, oh, shit.

And he's like, yeah. I said, you're right. So we just had a new roof put on. And you know the mexican guys, like, they want to be paid in cash. I said, you know how it is.

He's like, right, right. I don't have. This is why I pull out a lot of cash. I said, but it worked perfectly because I said, I'm flipping properties, so I need these loans. And so he gets head of Wachovia's fraud department, and this is a guy from California, and he's running a shotgunning scam.

He's got multiple first mortgages. And I explained, well, wait a minute. I read those mortgages. None of those are first mortgages. I said, the one from Wachovia was a first mortgage.

But then I. And I he. I had like, six mortgages. But he only found three. He only discovered three of them.

And so I said, I mean, walk. And he said, well, why do you have three mortgages? Even though this guy is saying they're all first mortgages? And I'm like, oh, they're not first mortgages, bro. I said, I came to Wachovia.

I asked for a first mortgage. The loan officer got me a first mortgage. I told her that I really need to get three $400,000 because I'm flipping a bunch of properties on the side. He goes, okay. I said.

And she said, I've got a friend that can get you a second mortgage. So she sent me over to Suntrust bank, or whatever it was. I forget. It was like, fieldstone mortgage. Fieldstone mortgage got me a second mortgage.

The person at Fieldstone said, look, your credit's good. You're eligible. I could probably get you a heloc. I got a friend at SunTrust that can get you a heloc. So I said, okay, cool.

So she calls over to her friend and gets me a heloc. I said, they all knew about it. Guy from Wachovia screaming, this is. That's not true. They're all first mortgages.

I said, man, I read those documents. Not one. I said, you can't show me one mortgage that says it's the first mortgage. So I read those documents, and so he's screaming and hollering, and so why is he pulling the money out in cash? I explained that.

Why has he got multiple bank accounts? I said, I have a couple corporate accounts in my corporation's name, and I have two. Two bank accounts. Like, what's the problem? Like, he's coming up with all these things.

And I said, look, bro. I said, what makes more sense that a guy who works for a labor company figured out how to defraud three major banks out of half a million dollars, or a bunch of loan officers figured out how to get me half a million so they could make a broker fee. And he goes. And I go, I think they got a problem at the bank. And he goes, yeah, I think you guys have a problem at the bank.

And they go, oh, my God. He's screaming, hollering. He said, I think, you know, I'm gonna bring him downtown, have him sign some paperwork. He goes, wait a minute. Look at his id.

It's a fake id. I had had the id issued from the DMV in South Carolina. He goes, look at the id. It starts with zero. Zero.

Now, he's from California. So this guy says, listen, I'm sorry. He said, this is a real South Carolina id. I've already run it, and I've run him through NCIC. This is Gary Sullivan.

And I go, bro, what? Now? I'm not Gary Sullivan. What the fuck are we doing here? And he goes, I know Gary.

I know this guy's losing it. He tells them, I'm gonna bring him downtown. I'm gonna talk to the district attorney, see if he's even broken a law. I don't even think he's broke. I don't even know if he's broken a law.

Hangs up the phone.

They follow. I follow them downtown, the detectives in front of me, the sheriff's car is behind me. You know, I feel like they're escorting me, but he may have just been going that way. Cause when I turned, he didn't turn in. They just kept going.

So, you know, I go, and. But when, as I'm going, becky has called like 30, 40 times. I was in there for 30, 45 minutes. You know, one, getting rested or handcuffed, then waiting for the guy to show up, then talking to the. So she's called over and over.

So when I get the phone, she's like, oh, my God, where the fuck have you been? She goes, they just listed you as number one on the secret Service's most wanted list. An article just came out. And I go, listen, I got bigger problems. So I was just handcuffed in a bank.

I'm on my way to, on my way to the sheriff's department right now, or police department, whatever it was. And she's like, oh, my God, get on the, get on the, get on the interstate and run. I said, I can't. There's a cop behind me. Cop in front of me.

I'm not going to outrun, you know, a helicopter. I'm not an, I'm not an indie driver. Like, it's not going to happen. Like, I'm, I've all those, you've seen all of them end badly. So I pulled out.

I said, look, I can do this. I was in handcuffs ten minutes ago. I can talk my way out of this. And I said, the worst that'll happen. And if they arrest me, they'll arrest me as Gary Sullivan.

My identity won't be in question because at that time, if you had an id, unless your identity was in question, they didn't run your fingerprints. They fingerprinted you, but they didn't run you through Aphis. So I said, you can get me out. Go get me a lawyer. She's I'm not getting you a lawyer.

I'm not getting you out on bond. She goes, I'm not risking everything I've got. She had, like, six, $700,000 a cow. And I was like, holy shit. So I said, well, then I guess I better not get arrested.

She's like, get on the interstate. I said, no, I'm not going to do that. So I hang up the phone. I go in the police station. I fill out a police report.

I'm standing in the hallway. Cause at first, I was in his cubicle, but he had to go get his lieutenant to sign off on it, right? So he says, gary, I can't leave you in my cubicle or my office. Whatever it was wasn't an office. It was a cubicle.

But he said, can you wait in the hallway? I go, sure. So I walk in the hallway, and my secret Service's most wanted poster was in the hallway, because the secret Service was actively looking for me and the FBI. I'm just. There's a warrant.

Like, they're not. Secret service is mailing stuff out. I remember I saw it. It was among a bunch of other wanted posters. You know, like bike thieves, you know, car thieves, burglars.

And there's mine. And mine was the only one that was in color, which is the only reason it even stood out. But you also have to think, too. By this point, I'd had plastic surgery, right? Like, I'd had two hair grafts.

I'd had a nose job. I had a. What they called it a mini facelift. I had my teeth done. And this was all on purpose to disguise?

Yeah. I mean, somewhat. Or was it? No, I mean, I. Vanity.

I don't. I mean, obviously, I think it's. It's probably. Probably a combination. It gave me an excuse to do it.

Okay, right? Like, I'd never done it before, but it's something I'd always thought about, and this certainly gave me a reason to do it. So, you know, Becky had had a bunch of stuff done. Um, so, you know, and we're. Listen, we're.

We're going to Mexico. We're going to Jamaica. We're. We're traveling all over the place. You know, we're blowing money.

We're acting like a bunch of idiots. So he walks me out. The cop walks me out of the police station. I get in my car. He actually tells me, listen, we have.

We do have some questions. Do me a favor, don't leave the area. I said, where am I going to go? Come on. I own two houses here.

I'm flipping. I'm not going. I haven't done anything wrong. He goes, okay. I go straight to two more banks, pull out some money, jump on the interstate, and immediately go back to Charlotte, North Carolina.

I pack up all my belongings. I get a U Haul van. I drive all the way to Texas, where Becky is. At this point. We go to Houston.

We get into a huge argument. We split up the money. When I say split up the money, she got five or 600,000, and she gave me $100,000. Her argument was that I could go. And he says, in two months from now, you'll have a million dollars.

I have to live on this money the rest of my life. And it was a huge scream, right? Which makes sense. Like, she's not a fraudster. She didn't even try.

And, you know, juggling all the different things that you're juggling, like, she wasn't any good at it. So I leave, and it was huge, horrible fight. Like, yelling, screaming, and she was a menace. Anyway, she'd had the cops called multiple times in the middle of the night. She was bipolar.

She'd get into the. We get into these huge screaming matches, and I'd bolt. Like, I'd grab a bag and just bolt because I knew. It's 02:00 in the morning. You're screaming your head off.

Cops are coming. Did you always attract this? It does seem right. I'm just. I'm just noticed picking up on a pattern here.

Jack Selby
I don't know if that was, like. Something I fight, and yet my. Yet my. My wife now is. I mean, she's not a pushover.

Matthew Cox
She's very quiet, very shy. I mean, my fear is she probably. She's. She's the kind you really have to worry about, you know? Like, she'd just kill you.

There wouldn't be a big argument. And she can do it, too. Like, she's a hunter. Like, she's. Like, she goes alligator hunting.

She hunts hogs. Like, she's. She's a floor. A deep Florida girl. Yeah, yeah, she's.

And she's told me, like, they'll never find your body. Just letting you know. So mantic. Yeah. Like, I mean, for a date night, one time, we went to Okeechobee, and we went alligator hunting.

You know, like, we're definitely two different people. So, anyway, so I'm a little bit scared of her. So, anyway, so I go there, we get into an argument. I drive that u Haul ban all the way back to Charlotte. I get my car.

I have no ids because we had unpacked the entire thing before we got in the argument. So all my stuff's in a Shores unit, including my ids, because we're just going to lay low for a while, wait for this thing to hit. We know that's going to hit. You just got caught in the bank, you got arrested, brought downtown, convinced them you've done nothing. They let you go.

There's going to be an article, at least one. And there was. So we're like, we're just gonna lay low. So I put everything in. We put everything in storage.

We get into a huge argument. She gives me 100,000. I drive all the way back. I actually called the FBI agent. I called some friends in Tampa just to see how things were going, you know, called my mother, called my ex wife, called just some brokers, and they.

One of them said, you need to call the FBI agent. She said, if I ever talk to you to please let have you call her. She's like, Matt, maybe you can turn yourself in. Maybe you could just get a few years, like, you know. You know, and I probably could have got a few years.

I would have had to turn her in and everybody else. And I was still on this. Just that complete delusion that I didn't want to tell on anybody. So I do call the FBI agent. I talked to her a couple of times on the phone on my way back to Charlotte.

Graham Stephan
How do you know they're not tracing the call? They were tracing the call. I didn't know that. Like, I stopped, you know, I stopped and I got a burner phone. Right?

Matthew Cox
You stopped at, like, a gas station, you say, yeah, I'll take a, you know, next. Was it nextel? Is there still next hour? I don't know. I think it was next.

Graham Stephan
Pretty sure they got bought out by somebody. So it was like, a next l. You pay the $50 or $20, and I turn it on. And then I called a bunch of friends, and one of them was like, call the FBI agent. Cool.

Matthew Cox
So I was like, fuck. All right. So I call, and the. The problem was she's saying, look, you come, you cooperate, you'll get, like, seven years for Tampa. Not Atlanta, not this thing in Charlotte.

I'm sorry. In Columbia, South Carolina, which she doesn't even know about yet. You know, that still hasn't hit yet. It's only been a few days. So I realized, like, I'm looking at 14 years, and I don't want to.

I don't want to tell on anybody. And I didn't want to do any of that. So I was like, yeah, I'm not going to do that. We basically. She also kind of realized she was lying to me about a few things.

End up saying, like, I'm not going to do that. So I throw the phone out the window. I drive all the way back to Charlotte. I get my car, and I think I had an affinity g 35. Like, they just.

Graham Stephan
Super great car. Sound great. It's a great car. It, like, 360 hp. It's like a badass car.

Matthew Cox
Who were you? At this point, the only id I had was Michael Eckert. Still, I'll be honest with you, it wasn't even Michael Eckert. I stole a guy's. This is not good.

I stole a guy's id, his identity, got a North Carolina driver's license in his name, and then legally had his name changed from Eckert to Johnson. Michael Johnson. Why did you change his name? I wanted to see, like, I was trying to come up with a process where I could alter an identity so much that I could, that if the person, like, died or something, like, it wouldn't catch up with me, and I don't. And I realized after doing some of those things, I realized, like, it wouldn't catch up to me.

Right? Like, my fear was, if I reestablish my entire life as one of these homeless people and the homeless person dies, what's going to happen? I don't know what's going to happen. Does suddenly, you know, does Social Security get huge? How would they identify the homeless person who dies?

Graham Stephan
If the homeless person has no identification. At all, how do they arrested, they fingerprint them? Maybe? They're like, I don't know. But I do know I didn't want it to catch up with me.

Matthew Cox
So if I alter the name, and then maybe I go back in and I try and get a new Social Security number issued, then how do, if I start claiming taxes on a Social Security number that was issued to a child, is that going to work? Like, I had some issues, so I'm trying to work these things out. It's complicated, right? Like, I don't quite understand it, but I'm just trying to. I'm really curious about this Michael Eckert guy.

Jack Selby
Has he ever reached out to you since, and is he still Michael Johnson? Listen, there's a guy, there's a few guys that are named Matthew Cox that I've traded some emails with. Like, I'm like, listen, bro, I'm so sorry. He's like, bro, you've no fucking idea how many problems you've caused me. It's like jobs, girlfriends, friends.

Matthew Cox
And I'm like, I said, listen, if you want to call me up and just ream me out and tell me what a piece of shit I am, I said, I totally have it coming. I have no. I said, here's my phone number. He said, nah, bro. So don't worry about it.

This guy forwards my emails because people email me my email. It's like, contact Dot. Matthew dot Cox. His is Matthew dot cox@gmail.com. So people will accidentally email him.

He forwards them to me. He's a genuinely nice guy. But you imagine, don't people look them. Up and see that this is not the same person? Maybe that seems common sense people share.

Graham Stephan
I bet there's a lot of Jack Selby's out there. Jack Selby actually was one of the founders of PayPal. Really? Yeah. Nice.

See, there we go. That's a. That's something that, when it happens, it looks good for you. True. I don't think anyone's mistaking.

Jack Selby
Well, I'm just curious. So Michael Eckert has not reached out to you? No. Because he was just like a normal guy. He was renting out a house.

Matthew Cox
No, no. Michael Eckert applied for. Applied for a mortgage loan. See, one of the things I would do to steal identities is I would run, you know, one. Of course I made the fake ids.

Sometimes I'd survey homeless people, but sometimes I just run an ad because it was a building. First it was synthetic identities, then it was running ads. You know, I skated it. Like, listen, this story goes. It's years.

This has been years. So, you know, you can imagine there's tons of stuff I've left out. If I honestly wanted to give a shameless plug for my book, I go over all of it in my book link below. Yeah, it's on Amazon. But, like, I can't do that here.

You know, I don't want to do a sick. You guys don't want me to do a six hour podcast. I'm just surprised, like, that no one has reached out to you because now, obviously, all of your interviews have gone so viral. You know, it sells well, all of this stuff. Keep in mind, most of these people are homeless, but.

But also. Or they either don't exist, they're homeless, or there's a few people that I've stolen there. Look, you know the guy, Scott Cugnow? Yeah. I've reached out to him.

Cause I knew Scott Cugnow. Like, I had his. I did a loan for him, so that's why I had his information when I left Tampa. I've reached out to him. He's never once, as a matter of fact, a friend of mine that knows his wife.

Cause I thought, well, maybe he didn't. Like, you know, you sent it through messenger on Facebook. Like, maybe he didn't get it. And so his wife actually told a friend of mine, no, no. Matt Cox has reached out to Scott several times.

He just doesn't want to talk to him. Like, I get it. What am I going to say? Like, it's not like he's got a bad reason. He's got a genuine reason.

You know why? I mean, you know, I'd like to apologize, you know, but he didn't want to hear it. I think we'd have a good laugh about it. So what happens when you went on a run? So what ends up happening is I go into that.

So I get my car, I drive across the street to Starbucks, because I feel like I'm good. I got my car. I dropped off the u Haul. I got my car, and I thought, let me get a coffee real quick while I go to Nashville, Tennessee, because I was decided I was going relocate to Nashville. So I go in the coffee place, I order a Starbucks.

I order a coffee, and there's two people from my apartment complex that are there, and they're, like, looking at me, and they're, like, having this hush discussion. And the female apartment person gets up and leaves. So the guy's just standing there. He gets his tray of coffee. He's standing there in his little foam tray.

I get my coffee. I walk outside. He follows me, get my car, start my car. He's standing on the sidewalk. I start my car, playing with the thing, put the seatbelt on.

I look. I'm about to pull out, and all of a sudden he starts screaming. Screaming. He's there. He's right here.

I look over, and there's two guys running towards the back of my car, and, you know, like, business attire. And I thought they were FBI or secret service, but I got my freedom of information act, and it was actually the US marshals. So two marshals had gone and had just interviewed those two people, and they walked across the street to Starbucks to get their coffee. So this is terrible timing. This is bad timing.

So, luckily, I had already checked. I was actually just about to pull out when he starts screaming. I just, boom, hit it. Voom. Drive straight off, you know?

Graham Stephan
Couldn't you say, I think you're mistaking me with somebody else and show an id or. I mean, I. No, first of all, I didn't really have. The only idea I had at the time was the Michael Johnson. Right, right.

Matthew Cox
And I'm driving a car. I was driving a car as Michael Johnson. Yeah. So I was curious to say, I don't know who these people are. Staking me like, they seem crazy.

Graham Stephan
This. I don't want to go through this. That, you know, I just punched it. I drove down the street about half a mile to a mile, and there were a couple of cling, or not cling cut, but there were a couple of white guys that were homeless. I pull over immediately, pull my half a mile to a mile away.

Matthew Cox
There was like, a homeless shelter they called the dog pound. And I see these guys sitting outside. There's like three of them, and I whip around, jump out with my thing, said, hey, um, would you guys like to take a survey real quick? It pays $20 cash right now. Um, they're like, uh, you, $20, $20 right now.

I just need. Take that. We'll take the survey. Takes five minutes. Yeah.

All right. What's up? Take their information, jump back in the car, drive to nashville. I end up ordering all the documents for. Well, all three of them.

But one of the guys name was, um, was marion Joseph Carter junior. And I went by carter. So, as carter, I immediately get an apartment. Three, four months later, I dated for three or four months just to kind of see what was going to come out in the newspaper. You know, like, I don't want to start kind of lay low.

Three, four months later, I said, ah, fuck it, I'm okay. There was a bunch of articles about me getting caught in the bank. And so I start buying houses for 60, $70,000 in an area called jc napier, just outside of nashville, the city of nashville. I start buying these houses, recording the value at 200, 210, 190. I start the whole process over.

Over the next year, I pull out about three and a half to $4 million, maybe four and a half. I forget what the paperwork says. Um, so I pull that money out, I start building some new houses. I get a girlfriend. We move into a house.

Everything's good. I got a few identities. What do you tell the girlfriend for your past? I mean, the girlfriend figured out. She figured out that obviously something's.

Well, first of all, it looks odd. Like, I talk about my parents, but I never talk to my parents, talk about my son. I never talked to my son. I talk about my. My brothers and sisters.

And friends. I never talked to him. She's never seen me make a phone call. She's never seen me get a phone call from anybody that I don't know in Nashville. There's nothing in my house.

Because this is. Trust me, this is the argument we had. It wasn't an argument. She was like, there's nothing in your house that is more than four or five months old. Nothing.

There's no photos. All your furniture's brand new. Everything's brand new. And she goes, and the other night when you asked me to go downstairs and get you a popsicle, I said, yeah. She goes.

She goes, I open up a popsicle box that had 30 or $40,000 in it in cash. And I was like, oh, yeah, okay. There's some problems. So I basically said, look, I'm not gonna tell you what. Who I am, but I said, I'm wanted.

Like, what I really had initially, I told her was I owned a mortgage company in Tampa, and I got bought out by household bank, and I had no compete calls for three years. So I have another year or two before I could do anything, and I'm just gonna start flipping houses. Which makes sense, but the other stuff doesn't make sense. Didn't you just said I lost it in a fire? Come up with the story?

Yeah. I mean. I mean, I guess I could have, but I didn't. Okay. You know, you get to a point where you just, like, lies are hard to keep.

So if you're gonna build a whole little scam around a bunch of lies, that's fine. I only have to maintain these for a few months to get the money and leave. But this chick I want in my life, her name is Amanda. So. And keep in mind, she's.

It's like, how often. How much lying do I want to do? Yeah. So it's like, look. And she's got me.

She knows something's wrong. So I said, look. Cause she was saying she had talked to her mom or dad, and one of them said he's probably in the witness protection program, which would have been great, right? I should have said that, but I didn't, so. Oh, her mom thought I was married.

She was. Her mom saying, he's married. Dad saying, witness protection program. They relocated him here. I tell her, look, I'm wanted.

And she's like, wanted by who? And I said, like, all of them. I said, like, FBI, secret service, everybody. FDLE, Georgia, you know, like, everybody. And she's like, okay.

She said, for what? I said, nothing violent. Like, it's like fraud. And I said, I'm reestablished. She's like, yeah, but it doesn't even make sense.

She's like, I mean, everybody knows you. You know, people here, like, every. Like, it'll catch up to you. I said, well, that's another thing. I said, one of my charges is identity theft.

And she's like, what do you mean? I said, well, I'm not Joseph Carter. I said, so don't look to see who I am. If I ever hear you utter my name, I'm leaving. And she said, okay.

She's deeply in love with me. Of course. The fact that I bought her a brand new car and she's now got a chunk of money in the bank, I'm not saying that helped. I'm not saying she was a gold digger. That's not true.

I liked a man, that she was a decent person. But she was also suddenly doing very well. Well, right. Dating me doesn't financially harm anybody. So you get it.

You look very judgmental. Very person that I've never seen scowl or be judged. His resting face is, yeah, this is. For me, like watching a movie. Oh, they need to turn this into a movie.

I already optioned my life. Right. So I've been to LA. I've had those meetings. So we're working on that after about a year and a half, because it's been about a year and a half over a year with Amanda, you know, and we've gone everywhere.

We've gone to Italy, Croatia. We've gone on the greek isles like, we're traveling. Her parents have met me. It's a great relationship. Not as good of a relationship as my current wife, of course.

So Colby will make a fucking video. That will be a short go for it, Colby. So it was a good relationship. And so what ends up happening is she does end up finding out who I am. One day our corporate attorney called.

Cause I had opened up a corporation to start building these houses. It's a development company. I had built a website saying that this entire area was being revitalized and they were tearing the projects down. Totally untrue. I had these banners on every house that said Nashville restoration project.

That was the name of the corporation, and that's all in her name. So at some point, I'd sent something to a corporate attorney. She sent me an email. I said, hey, I sent this to the corporate attorney. She never got it.

Can you please go on my go into word, print out the document and. And email it to her? She goes on to word and she sees letter to mom and dad, which is a letter I'd written the day I left, explaining to my parents what was happening. So she clicks on it. George and Margaret Cox, Matthew Cox address.

She looks up. Matthew Cox. Boom. Boom. Bank fraud, fraud, mortgage fraud.

Secret service is most wanted FBI. She spends. Honestly, I didn't even know there were this many articles. You know how you get hit the history bar? I mean, whoa.

It was like, whoo. I mean, she spent all day reading. So when I get home, I go to turn off my computer, and you know how you go to close things out? And I saw that word was open. I go to close out word, and the last, last, you know, the last thing that's open shows up and boom.

Letter to mom and dad. And I thought I hit the. I hit immediately hit the history bar. I thought, oh, my God, what has she done? I go in and I'm like, what did you do?

She's like, nothing. I got outback. Like, I'm like, no, no, no. Not dinner. What did you do?

And she's like, what are you talking about? I said. I said, I just hit the history bar. Boom. Immediately starts crying.

Oh, my God. I'm sorry. I love you so much. I wasn't trying to pry. It's just I saw the letter from mom and dad.

From your mom and dad. I'm so sorry. Please don't. Please don't leave. Please don't leave.

So we have this huge crying thing for the next hour or two, and she begs me to stay. And I was in love with her. People do stupid things for love. And so I stayed. And I stayed, and things were good up until we found out that Dateline was coming out.

So there was an episode of Dateline coming out. Dateline's coming out. She. Because now she's searching me constantly, right? Every time an article comes out, she's like, an article came out.

I'm like, jesus, like, I'm not even looking. And so there was an article in Fortune magazine. She read it. There's a couple articles in Bloomberg. Becky gets caught.

She gets arrested. Boom. Becky got caught for. She had told her mother that she was in Houston during one phone call, another phone call. She had said that she had paid for, like, whatever, the cosmetology.

To cut hair. She was in school for cosmetology. Her mother called the. Called the secret service or FBI and told them she's in Houston at a cosmetology school because her mother was very much a drama queen, just like Becky. And she's like, I just want you to be safe.

And so she called and told her, you know, and I'm sure she was doing. She thought she felt like she was doing the right thing. I get it. Like, she's afraid that, you know. You know, but in her mind, he's with this psychopath.

This guy might kill her. Like, in her mind, she really drummed up this insane thing. So they end up coming in one day, and they grab her at the. At the cosmetology school. So she gets busted.

Like, all these things are happening. And then one day we find out Datelines coming out, out. And so it's like, okay, an article in Fortune magazine. Big deal. I don't know anybody that reads fortune, Bloomberg.

I don't. I'm hanging out with construction workers. You know, like, you know, people that have regular jobs. Like, nobody reads this. Nobody's gonna recognize.

Even if they saw me, they wouldn't recognize me. So I'm not that concerned. You know, articles in Tampa, in Chicago, and, like, this is where these articles are coming in. Like, Chicago Tribune did a whole series of articles called the. Okay, so what?

Nobody's. Nobody in Nashville is reading this. And the Internet is in its infancy, right? This is in 2006, late 2006. YouTube, Facebook had just been invented.

You know, like, Amanda was on. On MySpace. Yeah. So I'm not that worried. But Dateline, there weren't 190 channels back then.

There were. There were still, like, 40, 2020, and people only watch six of them. Dateline is something people watch. My fear was even if I up and moved the day before Dateline and was on the, you know, kind of in transition and laid low, it doesn't matter. Dateline will be re aired in three months, and then two months, and then a year and a half, and then it doesn't matter.

Someday I'll reinvent my life. And one day the barista at Starbucks will be watching tv and be like, that's John Thomas. He comes in every morning and gets a venti vanilla latte. Huh? I'm gonna call somebody.

And they call, and I walk in to get my coffee, and boom, there's a cop stand. You know, there's three FBI agents or secret service. Like, I gotta leave the country. So we decide we're gonna go to. We're gonna go to Australia.

Australia. At that time, if you showed up with, like, $200,000 on a business plan, they would allow you to stay as a. A permanent resident alien. You could buy property. You can open a business.

You cannot take a job as an Aussie. You cannot vote I don't care about voting. I don't care about taking a job. I'm going to show up with a couple million dollars and just start a business. I can buy real estate, rent out the properties.

Sounds good to me. While we're doing this, we're having guys cash checks. We're getting cash, getting cash, getting cash. And Amanda ends up telling a friend of ours, a girl friend of ours, she tells her who I am because she asked her to cash a bunch of checks. And I'm pretty sure that sparked a conversation.

Why are you cashing $30,000 in checks? So I'm pretty sure that's what sparked the conversation, although I don't know. But regardless, she found out who I was. She contacted the secret Service. Secret Service watched the house for a few days.

One day I come home. Boom, they pull up, get on the ground. Get on the. You know, you've seen the movies just like that. Threw me on the.

On the ground, picked me up, and that's it. I was arrested. Didn't. Didn't initially had a little discussion about whether I was me. One guy's like, I don't think this is.

This is him. I wasn't saying anything at first, but then when they said, you're. Nah, this is Matthew Cox. You are Matthew Cox, right? And I was like, yeah.

Like, I'm not even like, I know I'm done. Why did this time feel different? Versus. I was just, I'm in handcuffs. There's so many.

They've got my. They've got my photo, my wanted poster. They've got my name. They're right here. Like, I was never that close before.

So they take me downtown, I get moved to Atlanta. The short version is I get moved to Atlanta, I end up getting. I get sentenced to. The short version is I get sentenced to 26 years, and, you know, while I'm incarcerated, I end up getting my sentence reduced twice. So I don't know if you have any specific questions.

I don't know. The lawyer they used, how long you. Want this to go? The lawyer you used was amazing. The story.

Oh, you mean. Oh, I was gonna say my public defender, which. She was actually a very nice person. Like, I didn't give her any. Like, there's nothing she could have done.

No. So, yeah, so what happened was, I went to prison, and, well, okay, so when I get arrested, I cooperate, obviously. I tell them who helped me. I tell them everything I could tell them. But it's been three years and changed by the time they interviewed me.

It's almost been four years, and everybody's already cooperated, right? So some people have already gone to jail and gotten out. Like, Allison had already gone to jail and was getting. And was in the, like, getting out in the halfway house. Becky was in jail.

She got 70 months, and it got cut down to, like, 30 months when they arrested me. Cause she got cooperation. Cause she had told them everything she could tell them. And they said, okay, you've helped us. We'll cut your sentence.

So she left almost as soon as I got arrested. Within a year, she's gone. But everybody, everybody I'd worked with in Tampa had already cooperated against me, but they had never arrested them. So by the time they're talking to me, it's late. It's mid to late 2007.

What's happening in 2007? Things are getting bad in the economy. It's starting to collapse. So they always say the financial crisis. 2008 financial crisis.

Yeah, but that was going on for six or eight months before 2008 financial crisis is because in 2008, that's when they did the bailout. That's when it was so bad. We've got to bail these guys out. So it's all. It's bad.

There's a lot of press. I cooperate, but they don't. And they say they're going to go indict people, and I'm supposed to get my time cut. So I get 26 years. I was also interviewed by Dateline.

They did a 1 hour special on me, and they came and interviewed me. I get sentenced, 26 years. I go to prison. I'm at the medium security prison, and it's a real prison. Exactly what you think.

People are getting stabbed, riots. I didn't have a problem. You know, you talk to these guys who, you know, I had to fight the first day I got in there, I got a shank. I got. None of that happened.

And I was at a medium. Guys were getting stabbed. Really? You know, were you scared of going. To prison like that?

Terrified. I know you look at me and you think, tough guy, but that's not true. I'm not a tough guy. I'm as soft as fucking cotton. I mean, I'm not a fighter, you know, so, I mean, so how do you go to prison?

Graham Stephan
So how do you not get taken advantage of in prison? You know, it's so funny, because the only time I ever had anybody even try and extort me was when I went to the. To the low. And whenever I tell this story, I always get people in the comment section. They're like, this guy's lying.

Matthew Cox
He's lying. But at the low, low security, low federal prisons are filled with sex offenders. And people that cooperated, like you're, either half of them are sex offenders. The other half, 90% of those guys cooperated. So if there's 1800 or 2000 people, there's a thousand that thousand people there that aren't there for sex offense.

Out of that thousand, there's maybe a hundred that didn't cooperate. And that doesn't mean that they didn't try and cooperate. They're like me, they cooperated. They just didn't get anything for it. So there's very, the only people that you can be for sure didn't cooperate are people that went to trial.

And I can't tell you how many times I've read somebody, somebody who's like, they're, they call them a 20. It's a, it's a habeas action where you're trying to say, hey, my lawyer was ineffective. I can't tell you how many times guys, I've read them where they're like, look, I pled guilty. My lawyer never told me I could cooperate, so I didn't. Does that make sense?

So, like, you're walking around like, fuck, those snitches. Fucking snitches. Well, I read your 22 55. And had you known you could cooperate, you're saying you would. You know what I'm saying?

Like, sometimes they just don't know. And I've had friends that I. Why is that more dangerous, though? Like, why are those people more dangerous than the higher security, the medium security? You said the low level is filled with those guys.

Graham Stephan
It's more dangerous. No, no. I'm saying that's the only time I was ever extorted. Okay. I'm not saying it's more dangerous.

Got it. It is dangerous, but it's dangerous like a really, really rough high school, right? Like you could get stabbed. But honestly, if you just go to class and just keep your nose down. Like I always say this, like, if you get stabbed in prison, you had it coming.

Matthew Cox
If you get your ass beat in prison, you had it coming. People aren't walking around just smashing people, right? Like, I had to do something. Maybe I ran up a debt, like with you. I owed you $200 or I borrowed something from you and you said, hey, man, I need to get that back.

And I said, fuck you. Okay, well, you're gonna get hurt. You could get. You might get away with that once or twice, but you're not a lot. Maybe you're gambling you run up a debt and you don't pay it.

You owe the bookie $200. He's got to do something to hurt you. Maybe you run up a store debt. Like, some guy sells stuff out of his locker. He's got like, a little store, they call it, and you're getting potato chips and you're supposed to get them two potato chip bags.

And you said, man, fuck you. I'm not going to do it. Or you're disrespectful to someone. Somebody, right? Like, you're not.

You start. Or you gossip. You start talking about something. I start talking about grandpa. Graham's a snitch.

Graham's this. Fuck Graham. He's a fucking. You have to do something about that, right? You can't sue me.

That's how people get hurt. And typically the guys. Graham comes to me and says, listen, man, you need to watch your mouth. You need to, you know, or, hey, you need to check in. You need to go.

Go to the shoe. Go to the hole, right? You know, the people call. It's called the shoe. You need to check in or you're going to get hurt.

Man, fuck you. You ain't gonna do nothing. What you gonna do? What are you gonna do? Probably 80% of the time, and even in the low, they're gonna do something.

Graham Stephan
But how common is it that someone big will come up and be like, oh, you're gonna be with me tonight? Yeah. And then if you fight back on that, then you could get, like, hurt. So there's. It's more likely that they.

Matthew Cox
They call it that they pressure you, right? Like, you. And I've actually had this happen where it almost happened. Like, I'm walking. I see there's a clique of guys, right?

They call them. This is gonna sound horrible. Booty bandits. You've heard that? Have you heard the term?

Graham Stephan
No, I've never heard of that term. Because the prison genre, this is like, common. Like, guys do whole videos on it. There'd be like, booty bandits where they chase other guys around. This is so not your.

Matthew Cox
Your guys thing, but so what happens is one time I'm walking. I'm just walking around the unit. Unit, and this guy goes, yo, yo, bro. Hey, Cox, come here, let me talk to you for a second. And I go, no, I'm good.

I said, what's going on? Well, come here, let me talk to you. Now. What I notice is his cell door is open. Two of his buddies are standing on the cell next to it, just talking like they don't even know what's going on.

Another guy standing over here, and I already know. He's saying, let me talk to you and my cell for a second. So he's either trying to get me close to the door or get me in a cell. As soon as I get into a cell, these three guys are going to run in, close the door, and they're going to pull out. Nine.

What are you gonna do, bro? And then it's suddenly going to get very serious, and they're gonna want you to do something. They're gonna want this, or you're gonna get stuck, and you're scared to death. Would they actually stab you? I don't know, but I knew not.

I knew right then. I actually grabbed the handrail. I said, nah, bro, I'm good. I said, if you want to talk, we can talk right here. Well, you think I'm gonna do something?

I said, if I don't go in your cell, I don't have to find out what's up. No, man, I'm just saying, if you need anything, you need shoes. I could buy you shoes. You need dope, whatever you want, I got you. He's just a nice guy, right?

Like, why would you do that? They're trying to make you indebted to them because suddenly he bought you a pair of $120 shoes. Now you owe me, and in a way, you do owe him, and he feels like you owe him, so then you might get hurt. So I'm like, yeah, bro, I don't need nothing. Nah, man.

I see you wearing these shoes all the time. They're all bad, man. They're fucked up. I'm good, man. I'm good, you know?

And that's just. And I'm holding on this. Cause I know if he grabs me or tries to pull me or all of them, I'm gonna lock on and just start screaming. Didn't happen. How do the officers just not see this?

Graham Stephan
And there's not cameras everywhere. I mean, there are cameras, but honestly, like, half of them don't work, you know? And the officers, like, they're. They're worried about you causing a fight. Like, fight or something like that.

Matthew Cox
People stabbing each other. Like, they're not. You know? And look, here's the other thing about that. The whole rape situation is that keep in mind, there's gay people.

There's gay guys in prison. There are that. You know, they call them punks, right? So there's punks in prison. There are transgenders, and, I mean, boobs.

Like, there's three guys walking around the compound with boobs and butt implants and, like, it's like, this is insane. Are they popular in jail or are they. Are they serious? They're extremely popular. If you're a punk in prison, you run that place.

I mean, these guys are desperate. Desperate to be with this guy because. There'S a lot of people that are gay in prison. I don't know what percentage of people that go to prison end up having gay intercourse, but is that because they're born gay and they just never get a chance to have ethics or something like that? And then once they hit prison, it's, like, somehow socially accepted?

I think it's probably a scale, right? Like, you have some guys that are just 100% masculine, right? Super masculine. And then you have, you know. And it's a scale, like, you know, you.

So it goes to, like, you know, you're bi. You'll have sex with men and women, and then maybe you only have sex with, you know, men. So, you know, it's a scale. So some of these guys are maybe bi, but they never act on it. Cause they're in a culture where it's not acceptable.

Like, in the black community, it's really not acceptable. You know? Like, these guys really frown on it, so they never act on it. But then they. And you'll hear this term a lot gay for the stay.

You'd hear this all the time. So they stay because. No, no, they're. When they're in prison for their prison sin, they're stay. So he's gay for the stay.

He's gay while he's here, but when he gets out, he's not. He was only having sex with other men because he was incarcerated. I just have a hard time believing that they're not gay if they. You know what I mean? Cause, like, you take a perfect, like, a perfectly straight person versus a perfectly gay person.

Jack Selby
Like, I think it would be probably hard to convince that person, you know, like, it's kind of a silly conversation. Like, I'm straight, and I could, like, I don't know, if I was in. Prison away for, like, 30 years, and it's like, you're 25. That's the thing. That's why I always joke about that.

Matthew Cox
I'm like, look, to a guy with a life sentence, I might as well be wearing a dress. Like, to a guy with a life sentence. Like, he's given up on all pretenses. And if he had any inclinations toward being a homosexual, he just goes all in. Why wouldn't he?

He's got 30 years. He's probably gonna die in prison. Are there, like, bullies for gay people in prison? Yeah, like, that's what I'm saying. They'll pressure you.

Like, they'll give you stuff or they'll. No, no, no. But, like, do people bully people for being gay in prison? Or is it kind of like. No, that's really interesting.

Graham Stephan
Cause that's what I would. I agree. I mean, I agree. I. I feel like most of the gay guys in prison were treated very well and were typically extremely.

Matthew Cox
Most of the gay guys in prison are there for fraud, by the way. Most of them. And they're very manipulative. And they'll have multiple guys buying them a commissary, getting them shoes. They'll have multiple boyfriends.

They'll charge, you know, for sexual acts. They have money on their. Sorry. Money on their books, like your inmate account. They'll.

People will put money on their books. They'll end up getting. They call them a war daddy. A big, big, big guy that, you know, is that, like, defends them? Yes.

Jack Selby
Does it happen often where people go to prison not knowing they're gay? They turn gay in prison, then they continue to be gay outside of prison? Jesus, you've really thought about them. Because here's the thing that's oddly specific for me. This is like.

I feel like it's like a human phenomenon that it just so happens, it's confusing to me that someone can just go to prison because I put myself in those shoes, right? I imagine myself having a life sentence, and I'm like, there's just no way. There's no way that it could ever. That it could happen, right? So I'll tell you one thing.

Matthew Cox
Here's what's funny is a lot of guys will. They'll get the, like, the nudie magazines, the girl magazines, you know, whatever. You know, they're not played with, like, penthouse or whatever, and they'll just look at that. Like, that seems like that's all they ever. You ever see them looking at.

But I never did that because I remember thinking, that's gonna make my time. I'm gonna. I'm not gonna focus my time on that, that, because it's just going to make my time harder. So, literally, when I got locked up, and as I was locked up for a longer period of time, I started thinking to myself, like, you know, two years go by, three, four. You kind of give up on the idea.

As I was approaching, you know, my mid forties, I kind of. And I thought, you know, probably you're going to be getting out when you're 60. That's over. That part of your life is over. You'll never be in love again.

You're not going to be, you're not going to have a girlfriend or a wife. You're not going to kiss a girl. You're not. That romance portion of your life is over. So there's no reason to look at those magazines.

It only makes things harder, you know? So I just, I just didn't. But there's lots of guys that, that's all they focus on. And so as an escape, right. They hit their fantasizing whatever's going through their mind, you know, and I just never did that because all I thought was it's just going to make things hard, you know?

I don't know that I answered your. Question, but how do people sneak in everything to jail? Oh, well, you're talking about like a, oh, well, you know, I guess it. Just happened, like Internet access or like no Internet. No Internet access.

Jack Selby
So I see people posting like, on YouTube from jail. Okay, well, now those may be step, that may be somebody who has a cell phone. Yeah. Right. So guards, it depends on the custody level, but guards will bring in a cell phone for somebody like, you give them like a thousand.

Matthew Cox
Like they buy a $80 phone. Or maybe your, maybe your girlfriend goes to the guard and gives him a phone and then you, and she gives him $1,000 and he gives you the phone. Now you got a phone, you know, or guys will, you know, hoop it. You know, I'm saying they'll. Yeah.

Graham Stephan
Do you not, do you actually not understand? Place it in there. They'll go to, they'll go to visit it and they'll keister it or put it in their prison, in their prison purse, and then they go and they get strip searched. But they're, you know, they don't catch it. Obviously, they don't.

Matthew Cox
It's, you know, supposedly you bend over, cough, and some, there's supposed to be some kind of reaction. You charge it, though. You can get a charge. You get a charge? Yes.

No, I mean. What do you mean? Well, no, no, no, but there's an outlet in the. Oh, no, you can find, you can, you can find an outlet. Like, wouldn't someone see it like a guard?

You know how many? Like, honestly, like for 2000. And no, they don't see it because they're, they're in their office. Like, you, you literally could go six months to a year without ever talking to a guard. You're gonna see them periodically, but you don't have to have any arms.

Jack Selby
You don't want to talk to them, right? No, not really. You know, there's no real reason to. It doesn't look good for. It depends on where you.

Matthew Cox
What. What custody level you are. But. Yeah, but you can. You can find access.

You could. Look, you all have lights in your cells, right? Like, you could pull the light off and find this. Find a way to plug in the charger to charge it and charge. These guys are.

They can be brilliant. Yeah. They'd be very creative on, you know, let's say everybody's got jobs, right? So you go to the job. There's outlets in the job, you know, so if you're working in a factory or you're working at.

I worked in education. I taught GED. So there's plugs there. How do you prevent your items from being stolen? You have a locker with a lock on it.

People could still steal it, but literally, guys will track that. These guys, they police themselves. If someone stealing from two or three people's shoes end up missing, these guys will track down who the person is. Like, being a thief in prison. That's bad, bro.

Like, you're not gonna make it long. These guys will just beat, like, five guys will just catch you in the bathroom and just beat the crap out of you. Did people die while you were in prison? Died, but not from, like, stabbings or anything. They died just from medical.

You know, like, guy. Some guy. One. This is just one instance. A guy got off the bat bus.

He was a. He needed, um, uh, he was asthmatic, extremely asthmatic. Got off the bus, and. And they had his stuff, right? And so they didn't.

They wouldn't give it to him. They said, well, medical has to check it out. They have to give it to you. Okay, well, it's 04:00. I need my asthma medication.

Oh, well, when you get to the unit, tell them to call medical. Medical closes, but he doesn't know. The guard's just trying to get him off. Get. Well, you go to the unit.

Tell the unit. Tell the unit manager, and they'll get it from medical. Cause I have to bring this to medical. So he brings it to medical, goes there, you know, manager's not there, goes to the co. Hey, man, I need my stuff.

Okay. Okay. We'll take care of it after count. It's 04:00 count. Everybody has to stay in there.

And they go around. They count everybody by 430, they're done. He goes back. Hey, man, I need my. I need my, my, uh, inhaler.

You don't understand. I could die. I could. All right, calm down. Calm down.

I'll call down their calls down there. They're not there. I need it, or they're not there. Bro, I don't know what to tell you. Go.

Look, when you go to dinner, see if the. See if the assistant warden is there. And talk to the assistant warden. Goes there. Assistant Warden's not there.

Goes to try and talk to the lieutenant. Lieutenant says they're closed. What do you want me to do? You'll get it tomorrow. Guys in tears.

Guys calling his calls, his. His family at home. I'm here. I'm in. I'm in.

Coleman. I just got here. They've got my stuff. They won't give it to me. I don't know what to do.

Everybody's freaking out. Nobody wants to help him. That night, he has a massive asthma attack, and he dies. He wakes up the next morning, he's as hard as a fucking rock. Like, you know, done died in the middle of the night.

Graham Stephan
Who's responsible for that? No way. You can't sue anybody. It's just a mistake. And you know where they said he died?

Matthew Cox
They. What they'll do is they'll come during count, they'll realize he's dead, and they'll go. They'll then call. Then they'll call the outside ambulance. The guards will put them on one of these orange things that they carry, or they'll strap them down.

They. And they'll go, hurry, hurry. The guy's dead. Dead. Rigor mortis is set in.

He's done. They rush him out, get him outside, put him in the ambulance, and then they say he died on his way to the hospital. So he left here alive. Everybody knows he didn't, but there's nobody really. It's shocking to me that the family has a record of him saying he's been trying to access medication.

Graham Stephan
Can't, but warned about it, and he's dead. It seems as though. How many police officers are on camera violating people's rights, beating them up, breaking their arms, hurting them. They fire the guy. Maybe they do a payoff.

Matthew Cox
Only because they're on film. Why don't these people aren't on film? Do the officers care about this person's life? Because it seems like even just as a human, it's like the guy needs his medication. They probably see a lot of people fabricating things, exaggerating, lying, and so they just use their best judgment, and it's very skewed.

Right? And that's really the problem. And I always say. I always used to say, you know, every time the administration try. Would try and do something for the inmates, they ruin it.

The inmates ruin it every time they want to. They. They had this thing where they were. You could rent movies. Not rent movies, just sign up and you could get a movie.

They had a whole list of movies you could get very quickly. The guy that's running that, the inmate that's running it now you have to pay him to get to see a movie. And before you know it, he's selling slots to two different people. And then suddenly there's fights and guys are getting stabbed over it. And it's like they're paying you to sit here and schedule people.

You're charging people $4 to watch this new movie they got in, and you're scheduling it so much. This guy shows up late, and this guy's pissed off and he's not done yet. Mom, right here. Tell him to, you know, these guys aren't normal. Like, they're.

And next thing you know, that guy walks in and just picks up a fucking. Picks up something, smashes the guy in. The head and does jail screw with people's minds? Because it seems like being in that environment maybe causes some people to, like, act out in that sort of way. I think most of those people probably had issues to begin with, if that makes sense, you know, because I did 13 years.

And I'm not saying I'm, you know, the pitcher of health, but I don't think I'm mentally any worse off now than I was. But I also wasn't in a penitentiary, so I wasn't in a violent place where you. Where. And there are some penitentiaries, like California penitentiaries are some of the worst, right? Like, yet guys are literally like.

And they are getting, you know, there are stabbings. There are. But I committed a federal crime. I shouldn't have even been in a medium. I should have gone straight to a camp.

I have camp points. But because I had so much time, they sent me to a medium. I stayed there for three years. After three years, I went to a low. What's the biggest difference between medium and low in terms of security?

In a medium, if a guy puts a Snickers bar on your pillow, don't eat it, don't touch it, because he's going to come back for it. You better be there, right? If he doesn't, you them in the low, you can eat the fucking snickers. You know what I'm saying? Does that make sense?

Like, it's a very serious. More serious. You remember I was saying, like, if somebody gives you something, like, oh, now you owe me. Now you owe me. You know, so it's like, if somebody left the snickers, they'd be like, take that thing and just stick it outside and be like, I don't know what you're.

You know, or don't even touch it. Like, I don't know what you're fucking around. Get your shit off my. Off my pillow. But at the low, you could eat it.

Nobody's gonna probably do anything. Cause like I said, at the low, when I got the low, I'd been there there a month or so, and I had a guy come up to me and tell me. He walked right up to me and he goes, yo, man, this is how this is going to go. You're going to get me dollar 50 in commissary. And I don't know what the exact amount was, but dollar 50 in commissary every single month, and nobody's going to bother you.

I said, yeah. He said, yeah, I ain't fucking around. I said, all right. I said, well, what do you want? And I guess he didn't expect it to go that smoothly.

He goes, man, I ain't playing around. I said, bro, I heard you. You want $50, commissary said, but I need to know what you want. I said, nobody's gonna bother me. He said, no.

I said, well, give me a. Can you give me a list? I ain't joking. I said, bro, what do you want me to say? You just told me dollar 50 in commissary.

What do you want? You want me to just get you whatever I want you to have? And I said, give me a list. All right, I'll get you a list. I said, make sure you put your, like, whatever.

Whatever. You know, they call themselves with their cubicles in the lows because they don't have doors. Tell me what. What cell you're in. He is.

What will you sell for? I said, because when I. When I take. I said, when you give me the list and I go to the counselor and I tell the counselor, what am I supposed to do about this? This guy wants me to give him five dollar 50 in commissary.

I said, he's in. I want to be able to tell him he's in this cell so we can go straight to you and we can talk about it. He goes, oh, that's how it is. See? Normally in the comments, people, if I've said this before, they're always like.

Like, he'd be smashed. That guy would have beat your ass. You never tell. I was in a low security prison, federal prison. Half the guys are sex offenders.

90% of the other guys have cooperated. This is not a tough, tough place. Not saying people don't get stabbed. They do, right? And he sat there and he's like, oh, that's how it gonna be?

You're gonna snitch on me? I said, of course I'm gonna snitch on you. I said, bro. I said, almost everybody in this fucking place is a snitch. I go, I just came from the medium for three years and nobody ever extorted me.

Do you think I'm gonna get extorted at the low? And he goes, all right, you're gonna have some problems. You're gonna have problems. I said, all right, well, if I do, I'll know where to find you. I'll have problems.

I said, if I have to get smashed and I have to go to the fucking shoe, then that's what I have. I said, I got 20 fucking years to go. 20 years. Do you really think that I don't expect to get smashed a few times? I said, but I promise you're going too.

I said, I ain't keeping my mouth shut. Okay, we're gonna see you. They're gonna come back and bite you. And he walks off. Yeah.

Never heard anything else from the guy. Saw the guy. Every unit. I see him every day. I'd walk.

I used to avoid him. Yeah, I would avoid him for, like, months, right? Like, he. I see he was. Luckily, he was like, six foot six, super tall, thin, but super tall.

So I could see him everywhere. You could. Anywhere you stood up, you'd be like, oh, there he is. I'd walk this way. So I'm kind of avoiding him, but at some point, something happened, and he just, like, it was, I had to move cells.

And I swapped out a cell with a sex offender. Some guy moved in my cell. I didn't want my cell. So I went to the sex offender and I said, look, I'll give you $35 if you'll switch cells with me. So while the other guy is sleeping, we swap out all of our stuff.

I get the counselor to agree to it. We swap it all out. And then when the guy wakes up, he realizes, one, you moved into my cell without asking me. And now guess. And I'm pissed.

And you basically told me, fuck you. It's tough shit. I got permission. Nothing you can do. And I then go to the counselor and convince him to let me move the sex offender in there.

He says, okay, and I move the sex offender in there. So when this guy wakes up from his nap, he's now living with a sex offender. It's the worst thing you could possibly do. So I do that, and everybody, it got around to me. Everybody's laughing their asses off.

Like, damn, Cox. So that guy, that guy, the six foot six guy. One day I'm walking down and I see him. I look up, he goes, Cox. And I thought, ah, fuck with this guy.

And I go, yeah, what's up? He said that shit you did. They call him chomos. He was that shit you did with the chomo. And I go, yeah.

He goes, veteran fucking move, bro. We dab hands. He goes, veteran fucking move. And he just walks off, which I don't understand. Why is it the worst thing to be paired up with a sex offender?

Because they're a sex offender and they're like, the, you know, in prison, in the hierarchy of prison, like, that's the worst possible thing you could be because. It'S being paired with them, isn't. Is that. Well, no, no. I'm saying I have to live with a sex offender.

In some prisons, the guys will tell you you cannot, like, if you're in a gang or something, like, you can't live with a sex offender. And what they mean is, like, you tell him he's got, like, 48 hours to move. He needs to get himself moved. But the sex. If the sex offender says, I'm not moving, well, then you have to smash him or you're gonna get smashed.

Do you see what I mean? Like, it's interesting, you know? Like, I honestly, I had a very easy. Not that any of it's super easy, but in comparison to the prison experience I could have had, I was blessed. I really was blessed.

It could have been really bad, you know, I could have gone to a much worse place. I could have had major problems. I got very lucky. I taught GED. I taught the real estate class.

They have a real estate class. It was super popular. You know, I went to the. The. I went to the.

When I went to the low, and I. That's where the guy, Frank Almadeo. Let's see. I've been interviewed. Let's get back to that.

I've been interviewed by Dateline, and the US attorney in my case said, if you're interviewed by date first, if you cooperate, we'll consider it subs, what's called substantial assistance, and we'll reduce your sentence. I did it, but they didn't arrest anybody. So when we said, okay, but I cooperated, they said, yeah, but it didn't lead it to anything. We can't do anything for you. Then they came to me, they said, look, if you'll be interviewed by Dateline, we'll consider that substantial assistance, and we'll, we'll reduce your sentence.

So I'm interviewed by Dateline. They air it. We go back to him, say, hey, he was interviewed. And they go, yeah, it's just not enough. Okay?

And so then american greed contacts us. They contact the US attorney. They say, hey, we want to interview this guy. She tells my attorney, have him be interviewed. Okay?

I'm interviewed by them. It's released. It airs. I have the episode. And they say, it's just not enough.

Then I'm contacted by a guy, Jim Montrum, who runs the national mortgage origination group. All mortgage brokers have to take, like, 9 hours of continuing education every year, right? 3 hours is on ethics and fraud. So he comes to me, he goes, goes, gets my lawyer, goes to the US attorney, and they come back and they say, look, we want Cox to write the ethics and fraud course that's going to be used to help teach the nation's mortgage brokers. I spent three months writing this course.

Well, probably two or three months writing the course, 9500 words. He starts, he implements it. He starts using it. We get a bunch of letters from people saying that it's being used. We go back to the US attorney, we say, here, you promised if I did this.

And they go, yeah, it's just not enough. So at this point, what do I do? At this point? It's been five, six years. Been six years.

My outdate with good time. So with 15% off my sentence, if I got no good time, my outdate is 2035. But I'm a good guy. I didn't lose any good time. I'm a good person.

I'm a good inmate, so I'm going to get all my good time. My outdate is 2030. I'm supposed to be right now in. So finally I realized there's nothing I can do. So I said, well, I want to file something.

Right? Like, there's paperwork. You can file something called a 22 55. It's a habeas motion. I know that means nothing.

It basically it's saying, hey, my lawyer is inefficient. It was ineffective. Like, my lawyer didn't know what they were doing. And so you try and take back your plea. Like you, I was given bad information.

I want to take my plea back. I want to start over. So you have one year to do that. From the day you're sentenced, it's been six years. Lawyers.

So I've called a bunch of people, lawyers on the street. They've all said, you don't have a chance. There's nothing you can do. You'll never get back into court. So I go, I have a buddy who's been working with this guy named Frank Amadeo.

He's a disbarred lawyer. He's doing 22. He was doing 22 years for tax fraud. He's bipolar with features of schizophrenia. So some bipolars have such bad bipolar that when they become manic, they become, like, delusional, right?

So they don't just get upset and angry. They actually have, like, fantasies. His fantasy, and he would disagree with this, is that God is telling him that he is preordained to be emperor of the world. Exactly. How he tells.

How he. That's how he says. Says it. Not ruler, king, emperor of the world. He's preordained.

God has ordained it. It's going to happen. And he believes God's telling him this, which is how he ended up in prison. He stole nearly $200 million from the federal government. Whoa.

How did you. How did you do that? So, listen, and this actually happens a lot. You don't hear about it. Let's say some big company.

You know, a lot of these companies that go under, right, they claim bankruptcy, whatever. So most companies do what? They'll stop paying their vendors. They'll pay the. And then.

But they'll almost always pay their employees, right? But what a lot of times what happens is, if you're a w two employee making $1,000 a week, the. Your employer takes out your. Your taxes, right? Let's say dollar 200 a week.

And then, plus, they pay in a little bit, right? $50. So that $250 every quarter order, they send that to the IR's. Well, a lot of times, when these companies get into financial straits, they tell the IR's, we have the money. Well, we owe you the money, but we don't have it.

We spent it. As long as they notify the IR's, that's okay. So what happens is they can get further and further behind. And so. So what Frank did was Frank would go in and buy companies that were in distress.

He would then immediately say, look, all of your employees. I'm going to have run. We're going to have them lease. We're going to have them work for this company. A payroll payroll.

Not a payroll company, but a employee leasing company. And they're going to lease the employees back to you and we'll do all the payroll. And he owns this company. So now there's hundreds of thousands of dollars every week for your company going into the payroll company. And Frank is paying the employees.

But the money he's supposed to be sending to the IR's, he doesn't send it to him. He keeps it. He keeps it and he's using it to do things like he's trying to buy f 16s. He starts a secure. A private security company that has contracts in Afghanistan that is in charge of, you know, guarding convoys, that is guarding diplomats that are kidnapping people in other countries and bringing them back to the United States.

Like, if you're a drug dealer, the DEA wants you, but you're a brazilian drug dealer who's hanging out in Columbia. The DEA can't go get them. Frank's company comes in, watches them for a week, grabs them, throws them on a plane, flies them back in, calls the DEA, gives them to the DEA. DA cuts you a check for $250,000, no questions asked. He's wanted.

If he shows up here, we don't ask questions. There are companies that do this. Blackwater. These are private companies. They.

They guard oil rigs. They, you know, so he's got companies that do these things. He's got a private. A military company that builds portable satellites. Like, it's all these things that are.

They have military applications. Frank goes to prison and he starts representing clients. Like, I'm sorry, inmates. So he's in pre gets 22 years for doing. For.

For the money that he wasn't sending the IR's. And it's a super interesting story, by the way. It. Like, if I. I.

I actually. Never mind. I wrote a book. But it's. So I really lay it out.

It's really interesting. And he's a fascinating character and hilarious. And honestly, so he was there a few years before I ever talked to him. I wasn't going to talk to him because he's delusional. Like, I don't want that delusional guy doing my legal work, but he's doing legal work for other inmates.

And so every once in a while, somebody comes up to me and goes. Goes, hey, man, you know. You know Jake? Yeah. Fucking immediate release tomorrow.

Heck, I had like, ten more years. No, Frank got him immediately released. He's leaving. Are you serious, Frank? Yeah.

Two weeks later, you know Pookie and B three. Yeah, I know, I know. The dreads. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, bro. They're putting him for a halfway house.

Frank just got five years off his sentence. He's leaving. Really? Three weeks later, somebody else leaving. Somebody else.

Ten years, office sentence, somebody else. Immediate release, somebody else. Four years. Office sentence, anything, something. You got eight years and you get four years off and you've already been locked up three years.

You're going home right now with good time. They're going straight to a halfway house. So it's like, holy shit. I heard this for six months to eight months. So maybe a year.

So after a year, I go, so now it's been like seven years. I go to Frank, my buddy Turk says, you got to come talk to him. I go and I tell him my case. Here's what happened. Here's what they said.

Here's what they said. And I'm going to do Frank for you here. Frank's like five foot four. And Frank goes, yes. He just has these spikes of bipolar, right?

He goes, I tell you, he said that just, I'm not going to let him do this to you. I will not let them do this. When my legions march on Washington, the president will bow at my feet and. And it. And I will burn the constitution and everybody's me, Turk, and another guy, I realize these other guys are just like standing there like.

And I'm thinking, the fuck is happening? And all of a sudden he goes, Turk, I'm going to need a form, a 22 55 form. I'm going to need. Jimmy, start a file on Matt Cox. Mister Cox, I'm going to need your transcripts.

I'm going to need a copy of your indictment. I'm also going to need a copy copy of your player agreement, blah, blah, blah. And I'm thinking, what just happened? This guy just said his legions are gonna march on Washington. And then these guys are like, absolutely, frank.

Absolutely. Jimmy turns around and bolts off, or Todd or whatever his name was, to go get my file, and he turkey, come on, let's go, turn around. I'm like, what the fuck just happened, bro? I remember thinking, I'm spending every day of my sentence in this place. He's crazy.

Graham Stephan
How do you pay him? I didn't pay him. I never had to pay him anymore. He just does this because he enjoys. He does it because I think it was.

Matthew Cox
He's a huge thorn in the side of the bo, of the. Not the Bop, but of the government. Yeah. So what happens is we fight the case.

So we fight the case. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm not doing anything. I'm just. Frank says, do this.

Yes, sir. And I'm still seeing them cut people loose. Loose. He prepares the documents, he sends them off, they come back. Government says, this guy's time barred.

Frank says the time bars reset every time. You requested he do something. Mister Cox could have done something immediately, but you requested he be interviewed by Dateline. So he didn't, because he expected you to do what you were going to do. He said, my lawyer, which was funny, because he didn't say a lawyer was ineffective.

My lawyer, because you don't have the right, by the way, for an effective lawyer under the constitution. You just have a right to a lawyer. So that's why a lot of people, he lose. He said my lawyer was just, didn't understand the law. So we argue back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

This goes on for six, eight months. And then finally when it looks like I'm going to get what's called an evidentiary hearing, where they're going to bring me back to court, where you can argue in front of the court, the government suddenly tells the court, court, we want you to give Mister Cox a lawyer so he can decide whether or not to accept a, what's called a rule 35, a sentence reduction, or continue on to do his, to do the evidentiary hearing. So they just said they're going to give me a rule third. They're going to reduce my sentence, not by my, they said one level, I'm sorry, they didn't even offer that. So the lawyer, they give me a lawyer, lawyer flies down.

She says, they're offering you one level, it's like 40 months off my sentence. And so I said, oh, no, no, that's not enough. So I said, Frank said that we want four levels. And she's like, well, okay, who's Frank? I said, frank's the guy that did all my legal work.

And I explained to her that he's, you know, she goes, what's he here for? And I tell her what he's there for. And she's like, you've got a mentally incompetent guy doing your legal work? I said, yeah. I said, but it doesn't seem to affect his legal work, does it?

I said, because everybody. She said, yeah, but still. I said, yeah, but all of the competent lawyers said they wouldn't do it. She's like, yeah, well, you don't have a chance of winning. I go, and yet you're here.

I've already won one level. They've already agreed. I said, you're saying I don't have a chance? She goes, no. I said, if I don't have a chance, why wouldn't they just crush me?

Why are you here? Says, yeah, I don't know. So anyway, long story short, we go back and forth, back and forth. I end up going, they bring me, they go up to like, they're going to give me. They give me one level and they agree.

Look, here's what we're going to do. We're going to bring you back to court. You can argue in front of the judge. So we go back to court, we argue in front of the judge, and the judge says, I'm going to give you three levels off your sentence, which is. Three levels is the equivalent of seven years.

Wow. So you have to think incrementally. Each level represents less and less months of incarceration as you go lower. So this is seven. Seven, right.

Three levels is seven. So I come back to court and I go up to Frank, and I remember, because I always loved this, that he said, this is so funny. He goes, I said, went to Frank? I said, hey, frank, I just got back. And he's like, yeah, I heard.

I said, I got seven years off my sentence. And I said, I really appreciate it. And he goes, right, yeah. And I said, but I was hoping it would be more. And he said, he said, I know.

He said, so did I. He said, you know, matt, looks like we're going to have to eat this elephant one spoonful at a time. He said, you keep your ears open. He said, something will happen. Something will happen.

We're going to get you some more time off. I was like. And I just thought, you know, he's just. He's just. He's probably ten years older than me, so, you know, he's just trying to be nice.

And, you know, and it was even just for me to even say, I was hoping more like it was a dick thing for me to even say, so. And it's funny, I get upset because, like, I'm so fucking appreciative. Like, I didn't have a chance without this guy, you know? And so I'm walking around the compound, and I walked around the compound a month later with this guy named Ron Wilson. Ron Wilson ran a Ponzi scheme where he stole $57 million from pension funds and churches.

Not a nice guy, but I liked Ron. You know, it's an old con man. We had a lot. He's super cocky, super arrogant. Reminded me of my dad.

So I'm walking around the compound with him one day, and he's complaining. Cause he's been locked up maybe a year or so, but he's cooperating in his case, hoping to get some time off his sentence. He's got, like, 19 and a half years. So he keeps saying he's. They're not gonna reduce his sentence.

They're not gonna cut any. Any time off his sentence. And I keep saying, why? He goes, because they think I hid Ponzi scheme money. Well, you didn't.

You gave him all the Ponzi scheme money. Ah, you don't understand, okay? This goes on for months, two, three months. And then one day he keeps saying it. And I said, why do you keep saying that, bro?

Like, they would have to find out that you don't have Ponzi, that you have the Ponzi scheme money to withhold your sentence reduction, assuming your cooperation leads to something. And he goes, can I trust you? And I go, probably not. And he goes. He goes, I did hide some Ponzi scheme money.

And I went, okay. He said, yeah. He said, I gave my wife not much, hundred, $150,000 in some cash. But she found out, since I've been incarcerated, she's found out that I was having an affair. Actually, I think it was before that, but she found out I was having an affair.

And you don't know my wife. She's crazy. She'll burn the whole house down around her. Like, she didn't care. And she's so upset about it.

It. My fear is she's going to give them that money to make sure that I do all this time. And of course, he's already decided he's going to die in prison. And I'm like. Cause he's 60 something, right?

He's like, 61. And I was like, okay. And he said, I gave my brother about 30,000. I'm like, okay. And he says, so, yeah.

And I went, okay. And so we're walking. And I said, well, don't worry about it. She's not going to do that. Blah, blah, blah.

He's like, and I remember thinking, is that enough to get me a sentence reduction if I contact someone and tell them and they indict this guy? And then I thought, they're not going to indict this guy because the wife's not going to give up the money. Like, he's just griping. So I don't say anything. So maybe a month or so later, I call my lawyer because she was supposed to send me my transcripts.

Cause I had written a book, right? I wrote my book, and I wanted to include some of the stuff that was set up my sentencing. So I call her, and when we're talking, she says, okay, yeah, yeah, I'll send them to you. I'm sorry, Matt. I totally forgot.

Okay. She says, anything going on in there? I said, no, nothing. And she goes, you sure? Nothing.

It was just weird, right? Like, you never wanted to talk to me before. And I was like, no. Well, I said, yeah, you know what? Listen to this.

There's a guy here named Ron Wilson. And so she types him up, she goes, oh, wow, this is a bad guy. And I said, this is what he told me. And she goes, okay, hold on. She said, look, uh, I'll look into it for you, okay?

I figured I'd never hear from her. A week later, a correctional officer comes up to me and says, cox, you gotta go to sis, which is internal security. So you gotta go there on the next move. I go, okay. So I go, there.

They go, come on in. The guy comes, come in. Come here, Cox. Sit down. Okay.

He dials the phone here. I said, what's going on? Like, I don't know. The fuck's happening? I'm like, yeah, what's up?

And this guy goes. Goes, hey, this is a secret service agent. Griffin. I think his last name was. Griffin.

Griffin. And I'm like, yeah. He said, I understand, you know, where Ron Wilson hid Ponzi scheme money. I go, yeah, but I need something in writing saying you're gonna give me something. And he's, well, okay, I'll try and blah, blah, blah.

First he told me that, oh, I'll make sure you get something. Well, I know you can. You can't promise that. So I'm gonna need something from a us attorney. So after about.

Takes about a month or so, he ends up sending me something saying that if they. They recover any money, a substantial amount of money, or anybody's indicted, they will reduce my. They will consider it substantial assistance and reduce my sentence. What else do I have? It's all I'm gonna get.

So I tell them what happened. They go, they interview Ron Wilson's wife and his brother. His wife? His brother bring his bro. His wife first denies it.

The next day, his brother comes in and gives him $150,000. He said, 30. Then the say an hour or two later, the wife comes in and gives him $350,000. That's half a million, including gold bullion. Silver.

Because he was a silver dealer, his Ponzi was based on precious metals. So she's got like a mil, like $100,000 in precious metals. Gives it to him. They indict the wife, the brother and Ron Wilson. Keep in mind I've been emailing these people, the secret service this whole time.

So that's. That's pretty dangerous. Like, I could get hurt for that. If the other inmates found out, I could get a beat real bad beat down. But I want out of prison.

Um. And between Ron Wilson and me, it's going to be Ron Wilson. So, like, you know, I so Wilson, I know all this is happening. He doesn't. So one day I'm walking across the compound waiting for this shit that for him to realize.

And also cox. And I'm like, oh, shit. I'm like, hey, Ron, what's up? And he says, you're not going to believe this. They indicted me.

I'm like, huh? They indicted you? That's crazy. And he says, yeah, they indicted me and my wife and my brother. And I'm like, whoa, that's crazy.

And he's like, yeah, so they're going to take me back to court. And so they end up taking him back to court. His wife gets like 100 hours of community service and like a year probation. His brother gets like a year probation, like 50 hours of community service. Ron Wilson gets six months added onto his sentence.

When I turn around and go to the court and say, hey, here's what's happening I want. You said you produced my sentence. The courts, the US attorney, they ignore my requests. Then I go back to Frank and I explain it to Frank, and Frank files another 22 55, goes back to the court and the government says, we don't even know what Mister Cox is talking about. But I had that letter.

Wow. So I send that to the judge. The judge is like, listen, something's up. So suddenly they give me a lawyer. The lawyer flies down.

They say, we'll give you one level off. We argue, we get three. End up getting three levels off my sentence, which is five years. I told you incrementally it goes down. So it's five years.

By the time that happens, I'm like a year away from being released. My sentence has now been knocked. Twelve years came off my sentence, but I've been locked up at this point. It's been, you know, this has been twelve years, you know, eleven and change. So within, whatever, six months to a year, I'm I'm released, and I go to a halfway house, and, you know, that's the.

That's. So I go to a halfway house. I go to a halfway house, and now I'm here. What's it like adjusting to life outside of prison? Like, technology.

Graham Stephan
I felt moved so quickly in that time frame. Like, do you come out and you're like, what is this? Like, I've never seen an iPhone. I'd never been on YouTube. I'd never been on Facebook.

Matthew Cox
I'd never. Yeah, none of. All of that is completely foreign to me. Like I said, I had written a bunch of true crime stories while I was locked up. I wrote a bunch of true crime stories.

I got some guys in Rolling Stone magazine. I got a book deal. I got two book deals. Like, I optioned somebody's life, right?

But I did it all by writing and typing it on Coralinks, which is like a. Like email, kind of like email, and there's no access to the Internet. All of these things. Like, all I knew when I got out was I wanted to do a podcast. But like I said earlier, like, I.

There was no such thing as a podcast. When I got arrested, I didn't know what it was. Guys that are coming in are trying to explain it to me. It's like a radio show, but it's lie. And I'm like, I don't understand.

Where do you listen to it? What is it? Oh, on your phone. On my phone, I had a. I had a razor flip phone.

You're not listening to nothing on a razor flip phone. So, you know, like, I don't know what it is. So, yeah, when I got. When I got there, I remember when I got to the halfway house, I got a job that a buddy hired me at a gym. Right away, my probation officer sent me, said, hey, I just emailed you a financial.

Like, a financial statement you have to fill out. It's like 20 pages. So it'll. Okay. I tell my.

She said, you gotta print it, fill it out, and mail it to me. Okay. I go to my buddy, and I said, hey, man. She mailed me this. I had to print this out.

And he goes, okay. He said, here, hold on. Okay. There he goes, okay. He said, it's printing on the.

And I went, no, bro, I need, like, a physical copy. I have to fill it out. He goes, it's on the printer. I said, what are you talking about? I said, I mean, I need to print this.

I need to print it so I can fill it out and mail it to her. He goes, it's on the printer. It's like 30ft away. And I went, what are you fucking, what are you talk, what are you talking about? I said, you didn't do anything with it.

And he goes, oh, wow, bro. He said, listen. I said, there's no wire. You have to plug it into. We have to print it.

You gotta plug it in. And he goes, no, Matt, I just connected you to the wifi. The printer's connected to the wifi. So I just, it just went through the Wi Fi to the printer and it's printed. So I'm like, what?

Just go to the printer. I walk over the printer and there it is, 20 pages. It's magic. Like, it's magic. Like, I could watch movies.

I could. Anything I ever wanted to know. 150 guys have made a YouTube video. It doesn't matter how stupid it is, if you want to know about how to put the foam thing on your sure mic, there's a guy. The proper way to do this is.

It's insane. I'm shocked. And you know what's so funny is still to this day, I'll be with a couple people and they'll be arguing about something, and I'll be like, you have the most powerful device ever created in history. Let's look it up. Who, you know, created this.

And then boom. I'm like, you guys have been arguing for five minutes. So it's just so funny because, like, although I still have little glitches, it does. It absolutely seems like magic. What was the biggest adjustment for you?

Graham Stephan
I mean, it was definitely the iPhone. Yeah, it was the iPhone, and it was editing, learning how to edit. You know, I use final cut pro. I don't know what you guys use, but super hard. Like, I didn't have anybody to help me, so I'm watching YouTube videos like, baby step, baby step, baby step.

Matthew Cox
And now, of course, like, I can do shorts and I can do editing, and I can do whatever I need to do at this point. Yeah, I would say just the technology in general. And then, you know, obviously re acclimating just to society. Like, how did people treat you when you got out of jail? You know, I don't really hang out with.

The only person people that I really hang out with that I used to hang out with was just a couple of friends that were, weren't really involved in the fraud at all. We were friends in high school, so friends from high school that had nothing to do with my fraud, that I kind of, you know, after your high school friends, you go off and you get new friends, right? Well, I go and off, and I got my fraud friends. And so those high school friends were the friends that came and saw me in prison and got me a job immediately. Immediately.

The other people don't return phone calls. They don't return. You know, you send them something on messenger, they don't return it. Instagram, texts, nothing. So those people I don't hear from.

I think for the most part, people have been cool that I knew me prior, but I think most people knew people. When I meet them, it's always kind of funny. I'll go to a party and you're talking to somebody, and I'll bring it up, but I'm not going to shy away from it, right? So you bring it up and then somebody's, oh, yeah. I'm like, oh, what do you do?

Oh, I do this. We talk about that for ten minutes. Oh, what do you do? And I go, I run a YouTube channel, and I do speaking engagements and, oh, what kind of YouTube channel? You know, and my wife will look at me, you know, and it's like, there we go.

How long can I. What can I say that's gonna not. You know what I'm saying? And I'm like, oh, it's about true crime. Oh, how'd you get into that?

I'm like, you know, I did 13 years in prison for bank fraud. And so I got out and I decided to start one. And they're like, listen, this happened with three different couples about two weeks ago. Every one of their moods changed. You could immediately see it in their faces.

And, you know, one guy was like, well, you know, I mean, you. You did the time. You did what you did. I mean, I'm not. I don't know what it is, but, I mean, you know, I don't have a problem with.

It's just, like, I didn't say you had a problem with. I immediately went into this whole apology thing for me apologizing on my behalf, and he's okay with, want you to know I'm okay with it. And I think you weren't okay. I don't need you to be okay with it. But I was like, okay, no, I get it.

I get it. And, you know, my wife and I are just grinning. And I met my wife in the halfway house. She did five years for a meth conspiracy. What is meth conspiracy?

You know, methamphetamine. Yeah, I know that. What's the conspiracy? She was working under a guy named Wildman in Okeechobee. Florida.

And there were like 30 people on her case. And so she's distributing meth. She's got dealers underneath her. They're selling, she's selling. She's getting it from him.

He's getting it from the mexican cartel. Wow. So, yeah, she's got a super interesting story. Why do you think you went in this direction? Because you're obviously very charismatic, confident, smart, well spoken.

Graham Stephan
It seems like you could have excelled in just about anything that you had put your mind to. I mean, maybe, you know what, I've heard a lot, as I always get that, that, you know, this guy would have been successful at anything. He. Yeah, okay. Or he would have made way more money if he'd done something legal.

Matthew Cox
I mean, honestly, the amount of money I was making for the amount of effort, you know, I wouldn't have, like, fraud, you know, and it was easy, and it was, once again, it was just arrogance. And I just thought I was so smart and I was going to get away with it, and they weren't going to catch me. And every time they did catch me, I paid them back or I talked my way out of it, and I. This so you can imagine how invincible you would feel having been in the. They handcuffed me.

They handcuffed me. They questioned me. They've got the bank saying, you're committing fraud. They've got me 100%. I walk out of there, I felt like they cannot catch me.

I mean, I just felt invincible. You know, I look back at stupid, obviously. How much time do you think you needed to serve in order to change? I probably should have gotten ten years and probably done seven and a half. And that would have been enough to ensure that you never did anything like that again.

Yeah, because after about three years, you know, I was like, I don't want to come back here. Like, I don't. And I really. I'd found, like, a passion for writing at that point. And I think at that point I had realized, like, you can live with very little to be happy, you know, like, I was happier in prison with nothing than I ever was with everything prior to prison.

I was happier when I got out, happier in the halfway house, happier living in somebody's spare room, happier now with my, you know, my wife and I, like, we don't have a lot of money, you know, but just super happy with almost nothing. I realized that, and it took years. That's not like something where you say, oh, if I got in six months. No, I was. No, in six months, I was still just an arrogant prick.

I was scared to death because I wasn't at the medium. But by three or four years, I had had a definite change of heart, you know, definitely. You can't keep in touch with your prison friends, can you? No. So that's illegal.

Yeah, yeah, but I do. But you do. Is that. Can you say that? I probably can't say that.

Graham Stephan
We should probably edit that out. No, it's fine, because, look, here's the thing. Most of the people I'm in contact with, I've written stories about, so I have to be in contact with that person. I wrote a book about them. I wrote a story about them.

Matthew Cox
Think about the podcast. I'm not allowed to be around other felons. I'm around other, other felons. At least you got to get. I'm getting at least six times a week.

At least six times a week. Well, let's say four or five times a week. I do four podcasts. I. We put out four.

I probably do five or six a week. I'm. Almost. All those guys are felons. As long as it's for work, I'm allowed to be around them.

That's been my agreement since the beginning. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Now, they don't do that for just anybody. But, you know, you have to understand the amount of.

Of what I've been through. And, I mean, my probation officer 100% knows, like, this guy's. He's good. He's not doing anything. She's super.

I don't want to say impressed with me, but she wholeheartedly believes that, like, this guy's not going back to prison. If she could take me off probation right now, she would, but she can't because I still owe, like, 5.7 million. How does that feel, to owe 5.7 million? I'm good for it. You guys have no sense of humor.

Graham Stephan
Well, I'm doing calculations in my head. I'm like, hey, listen, you do these things. Do they charge interest on that? No, that's not on mine. Most people, they do, but that is probably the only argument that my lawyer made because he was like, look, he's probably never going to be able to pay this off.

Jack Selby
And who's getting the 5.7 million? The banks. So it's funny because probably 80% of the banks that I defrauded went under during 2008. So the government's mostly getting it. I'm sure that I had.

Matthew Cox
I have, like, three or four victims, right, that lost money. Like, I didn't take money from you. Eckert. No, no, no. But I rented your house, and so I rented your house.

I satisfied the mortgage. I took out four mortgages, five mortgages on it, and then I took off. What do you do? You just start getting these, these letters and saying, they're foreclosing, so you have to go out and you hire an attorney. You could.

Some people did it themselves. Some people just started making the phone calls themselves and they fixed it and they realized what was happening. Cause obviously the FBI comes in, secret Service says, no, no, he's a victim of fraud, blah, blah, blah, and then they just quash it. But some people, they don't have that kind of time. And they were scared and so they went and they had paid $10,000 to an attorney or $5,000 to an attorney.

So I owe to individual victims, four people, a total of about $30,000. So I assume every month, when I make a payment, periodically, maybe every quarter, I don't know how it works, but they get a little check, you know, what is that check? $16. It's too bad they can't get paid first or government. So one of the things I've thought about doing was once I'm off probation, is I've thought if I could go back in front of the judge and say, look, can we arrange it so that I pay these people off first?

Cause nobody gives a shit about banks, especially 80% of the banks that went under. I agree. And nobody's laying awake at night thinking, you know, I hope Mister Cox makes his restitution payments. But these guys, I'd love to be able to say, look, how much have they been paid and what do I owe them? Because if I had to pay those people individually, I promise you, I'd make a hell of a lot more effort.

I'd feel a lot better about making that payment. And it'd make a lot. I don't know that it'd make a huge difference. Because honestly, if you listen to it, one guy was a doctor, one guy is a CPA, one guy is a hard money lender who lend. I think two of them are hard money lenders that lend money like they're multimillionaires.

It's not like I hit some guy that works at a Walmart who's got three kids, you know, so. But I would like to pay, pay them off. It's funny, nobody ever, ever say it's funny you say that. Nobody's ever said that. And I've always thought that.

And I've always thought, like, what happens if what happens if something does get made? Like, I could pay them off, you know, and. And so I would like to do that. Like, I think that. And I would love to do that.

I'd love to be able to go to the court and explain, look, can we restructure this? Like. And I don't see that the US attorney would have a problem with, I don't think. Right. But, you know, I haven't done that because I've been on probation and.

Cause while you're on probation, you under the probation officer, and there's nothing I can do under probation. Cause it's already listed how I have to pay. So you'd have to go back to the court, restructure the whole thing. And I just went off probation, and then I'll do it, and I have to pay anyway. No matter what.

I'm always paying. I just like to pay them first. Yeah. What I found really interesting was the escalation of crime that you experienced throughout those years. And I'm curious, in situations like Breaking Bad, where it starts out as just like, a standard school teacher, and then you just see, like, him devolve basically into someone who ends up killing people and this and that, how applicable do you think situations like that are to just the greater public?

Jack Selby
Do you think you can take a perfectly normal person and then just slowly, like a slippery slope, get them down and down and down and down until they start doing worse things? Like, if you. You continued to get away with this, how bad do you think it could have gotten? I mean, I'm not really a violent person, so I don't think it would have ever gotten too. I don't think it ever would have ended up being violent.

Matthew Cox
But then violent people never think that either. At the same time, like, I bet if you had told yourself that you'd be evading us marshals by driving away from them, you know, like, you would just not have believed it. Right? I'll tell you, I have a friend who started making ecstasy with a retired professor at UCLA. So he started making ecstasy, which at that point, it was a party drug, right?

It was raves. There were raves back in the late eighties, and then it slowly evolved into methamphetamine. And then they were paying off FBI agents and confidential informants, and they were paying off. Like, it just got progressively worse and worse and worse. And the amounts he was making was getting higher and higher.

And eventually, two of the confidential. FBI confidential informants end up getting murdered. And you can see the escalation of this guy who's just making ecstasy. He's like, I just felt like I was making ecstasy, and then it became meth, but it became meth because they owed this money. They got ripped off by the FBI.

They were crooked FBI agents. And then it just progressively got worse and worse, and they keep getting deeper and deeper. And before you know it, people are ordering murders. And it's like, these are a bunch of fucking high school kids. I mean, by this time, they're 20, 25, 20, in their early twenties.

But it's like, what just happened? If you hear the story, like, how did this happen? But, I mean, I've seen that a lot. Like, some guy just starts off slow, and then it gets very, very serious. And when money's involved, people get crazy.

I think mine would just have continued to be fraud and fraud and fraud, and I would have probably just continued to get fraud till I get caught. Everybody's always like, well, if you'd gotten to Australia, you think you'd have been good? I wouldn't have, bro. I'd have done something. I'd have gotten caught.

The other thing is, people always ask me, like, would you do it again? Again, you know? Or, you know, if you could change it, would you change it? Like, fuck yeah, I change it. You know what I mean?

Like, I love those guys who know. Cause it made me the person I am today. Are you insane? Like, I did 13 years in prison. Like, you know, my father died when I was in prison.

You know, like, by the grace of God, I got out just in time to watch my two years. I was able to spend two years with my mother before she died, bro. You know what I'm saying? Like, if I could change that and go back and, you know, and have been a decent son to a woman that didn't deserve to have a son like me, like, I would do anything to change that, to have a relationship with my son. Yeah.

Graham Stephan
How were you keeping in touch with your parents during this time? I know you're writing a letter. I wasn't. I wasn't. I wrote one letter, and then I would call periodic.

Matthew Cox
You know, if we had gone on vacation to Las Vegas, I would go get. You know, I'd go get a burner phone, and then I'd call. Or I call from a payphone. They used to have payphones. I call from a payphone and I call and talk to my mom, you know, for a little bit, and then that would be it.

Graham Stephan
Would she ask questions? Oh, yeah. You know, she wouldn't ask too many questions. Like, I love you. I hope you're safe.

Matthew Cox
Are you okay? Like, you know, if you're not around and they think you're in danger, it's like, I'm not in danger. She didn't want you to get caught. It's hard to say. I don't think she wanted me to get caught, but she wanted to know I was safe.

And I always love that when people think, well, I just want to know you're safe. Like, you think I'm safe in prison. Like, I'm safer here. And, you know. And the thing is, I don't think she knew how I was living, too.

Like, I'm not, you know, I'm not broke, you know, I'm driving brand new cars, I'm going on vacation. Like, I'm living very well. But she doesn't know that. You know? So, yeah, it's a shitty situation.

Graham Stephan
Now I'm really curious why the government never decided to reach out to work with you. Like, you see catch me if you can was a great movie where they were creating fake identities and then eventually the government figures, this is a person we gotta work with to revamp the system and detect fraud. Why have they done this thing? But that's a movie. And that didn't really happen.

But I saw the thing. I saw the thing at the end. No, it's. It. Like, I know the credits but I read his book about how, basically, most.

Matthew Cox
Most of Frank Abagnale's story is a lie. Most of the movie. And. Which is. Nobody wants to hear that.

Graham Stephan
What? And now it's horrible because honestly, it's. One of my favorite movies. Yeah, me too. There's a guy who wrote a whole book about how almost everything.

Matthew Cox
It's funny, too. You know what's funny is his real life is actually super interesting. The two books he wrote, which I read and the movie are not. I'd say 10% of that is accurate. Really?

And then. But his actual. He actually had a brother that was a con man, too. These interesting things that happened in his real life. Like, some of it's true, right?

Like, he did dress up like a Pan am flat, right? There were things that he did do, some of it was true and he did. Like, there are some similarities. And so if you find out what really happened, you're like, okay, I could see. But honestly, I'd say maybe 75% of that movie's not true.

But the thing about the FBI. And even though there's. By the way, there are videos of him talking about how he worked with the FBI. But that's absolutely not true. None of that's true.

He never worked. How could they. How could they say it? And then at the. The ending to say, like, he's worked with it?

Graham Stephan
How is it just a blatant lie? Who's checking? I just believed. Yeah, right. People just believe it.

Matthew Cox
And nobody's checking. And it's Hollywood, and they assume it's true. And so. And I get it. Like, there are.

Listen, there are professional criminals that are similar to that where they'll pay some guy to go undercover and work with them. But honestly, the FBI is like the FBI Secret Service. Like, they're not stupid. Like, they know everything that I've done. You know, the only thing I did, I did unique things because I did them in combination with other scams and I did them on a larger scale.

But, you know, they don't. They don't need me. And they couldn't stop a lot of the stuff that I do, even to this day. So there's nothing that you could say if they did XYz, that would prevent, I mean, all this stuff from happening. Sure.

Honestly, if everybody had their. Their home titles monitored, you know, by home title lock. Right. Yeah. You would think like a.

Graham Stephan
Like a credit report sort of thing or, like, that's what's so funny. If you use your credit card, every time I use it. Right. You get the push notification. Right.

Matthew Cox
So you're. So that's. You don't have that for your title, you know? So if you. If people signed up for something like home title lock, you can go to your local county, you can sign up for something where they notify you if there's a change.

So what's interesting about. About a company like home title lock. Is that they should be sponsoring you. If they don't already, they should be. Or you create your own company that does this.

Graham Stephan
I mean, I think that would be genius. What's interesting about them is what makes them better is that if something goes wrong and you're notified and you go, hey, wait a minute. Home title lock just told me that my. My deed was transferred or my mortgage was satisfied, what's going that they'll say, hey, this just happened. Is this you?

Matthew Cox
Do you know about? And you say, no, that never happened. If the county notifies you, what do you do? You can't call the county. They won't help you.

Yeah. You say, they go, oh, well, I don't know what happened. It's not our department. We can't even refer you to someone and you say, okay, well, I'm going to call the police. The police are going to be like, okay, well, we don't know what happened.

Something got transferred. It sounds like you need to look into that. We can't help you. No crime that we know of is being committed, but it's actually is happening. Home title lock.

When you tell them, this is what. When they say, hey, is this you? And you say, no, it's not me. They immediately pull the title. They do the research.

If there's a crime, they help you, tell you who to file it with. They will hire an attorney to correct, do a suit for quiet title to get your title back. They'll contact. Like, they'll do all that. So that's why when I hear people say, oh, well, you can go to your county and be notified.

Yeah, if you want to sign up and go to your county, you can. But what happens when they say, hey, your deed has been transferred and somebody just sold your house? What are you going to do? Well, I'm going to call the police. But the police don't want to help you.

They don't even really understand the crime. See, but what they should do is like a credit report that you could freeze. You should be able to freeze your home's public record or your home's title, right? And you put, you know, you have that notarized and you put a code in there that only you know. And if you want to remove that because you want to sell or refinance the house, which people rarely ever do, I mean, every seven years or give or take, then it's off.

Graham Stephan
But if the freeze is on, no one could go and, like, hoard anything. You'd have to make exceptions for like a year for the government placing a lien on your house. Like, what if you don't pay your taxes? What if you pay your. True, but let's say you could get away with that.

Matthew Cox
There's 3700 counties in the United States. 3700. All of those counties, 3700 in the United States would have to adopt this system to fix it. And why would they? It doesn't cost them anything.

Why would title companies want to fix it? That's how they make money, by selling you title insurance. If they made it foolproof, we don't need title companies. I have a question. Because along the entire way, right, this entire story, you consistently had girlfriends.

Yes. How'd you do it? What do you mean? What do you mean? What was like, okay, because, like, you had this girlfriend and then this girlfriend.

Jack Selby
You're talking to multiple girls at the same time you're talking to your wife, and then you had, alongside her, you had, like, three girlfriends. You're also seeing at the same. How are you such a ladies man? Stop it. How did you do it?

Matthew Cox
Are you serious, Jack? Jack is serious. He is 100% serious. That is a serious question. I mean, I'm shameless.

Graham Stephan
Give Jack advice. Are you serious? I'm shameless. I mean, I would, like. Honestly, I would walk up to.

Matthew Cox
I met my wife in the halfway house. You know, like, I just. You just start flirting. You want to know what the conversation was with her? I literally said, like, after we talked a few times, I said, I feel like you're sweet on me a little bit.

And what's. Like, we're flirting a little bit? She goes, no, we're not. And I went. And I said, I feel like we are.

She goes. I said, you know, I said, I have great intuition. And she goes, well, not in this case. She goes, look, my wife wears cowboy boots. One arm is sleeved out.

She ran a hog hunting tour guide service for six years. This is a tough chick. And she goes, like, this is a country girl. She goes, I make fun of guys like you. She goes, you're a city boy.

She says, this is never going to happen. I feel like it is. And she goes. And she goes, you're delusional. I said, we'll see.

We'll see. And then I kept texting her, and she texted me back, because we're friends and we're in the halfway house. And see, I'm not buying that, though. That's not intuition. That right there is winning the heart of somebody, and that's what you're good at.

Jack Selby
That's not intuition. She gave me. I bet you she was honest that she wasn't into it at the beginning. She may or not. I was still, tell her she was.

Matthew Cox
She says that she wasn't interested. And then she contacted me later, and she's like, look, I'm coming to Tampa. When we were out of the halfway house, and she said, do you want to have dinner? I said, yeah, well, we'll have. Or she said, lunch.

I said, let's have dinner, like a date. And she goes, well, we could have dinner, but it's not a date because I'm not texting her. You don't know. I don't know anybody texting every couple days. And she goes, no, no, I don't want it to be a date.

She said it was just friends. We'll go as friends. I said, I don't want to go as friends? She says, why can't we be friends? I said, because I said, there's nothing more useless than having a high, hot female friend.

I said, the whole time you think we're building a friendship, I'm just waiting for an opportunity to have sex with you. And she went, well, then I guess we're not going dinner. I said, I totally understand. She goes, you're serious? I said, absolutely.

I said, I'm all filled up on my friend quota. I like you. I'm always going to like you as more than a friend. And if you don't, then that's fine. So we go back, and this happens for two, three weeks, and finally she says, okay, we can call it whatever you want.

But she said, but I'm telling you, it's not a date. I said, whatever. So we go to dinner, and I remember my ex wife when I was on my way there. I got there a little early, but I didn't want to be too early, so I waited across the street. I'm in my car.

My ex wife's like, what are you doing? This girl was on methamphetamine. She just got out of prison. She's told you she doesn't like you. Why are you going to dinner with her?

And I said, I'm going to go to dinner. I'm going to be charming and fun. I said, and at the end of dinner, I said, we're gonna go to the movies. I said, and at the end of the date, I'm gonna try and kiss her. And she goes, and what if she says no?

I said, if she pulls back and doesn't want to kiss me, then I know. I said, and I will know. Okay, I made a move. It's a no. That's it.

She's telling the truth. That's it. I said, but I don't think she's going to. I think she is interested. I feel like she's flirting.

She says, matt, you've been locked up 13 years. You don't have a fucking clock clue. What? What that. What she's doing, what's happening?

I said, well, it's like a Thursday night. We're having dinner. I think I do know. And she goes, okay, you're crazy. I get there.

She laughed at every single joke I made. And we giggled and laughed and the whole thing. And we went to. And I'm extremely forward. We went to go.

Go to the movies. Star wars had just come out, and we couldn't get in. It's crowded. So we go back to the car and got in the car, and she goes. She said, what do you want?

She goes, so what do you want to do now? And I go, what do I want to do? I said, I want to make out in the car. What do you want to do? And she goes, I don't know.

And I leaned right into her, and she said, listen, my stomach jumped into my chest. And I said, are you sure? And she goes, oh, my God. Didn't pull back. Didn't anything.

Boom. We started kissing. I haven't kissed like that since I was 13 years old. My lips were chattered for days, and we were, like, inseparable after that. So, like, it's like I'm shameless because I felt like it was true.

And if she had said, listen, I'm not interested. Look, that's not gonna happen. I would have been like, okay, that's fine, that's fine, but I'm not afraid to walk up to some girl in public and say, hey, what's up? Blah, blah. And if she's like, no, no, okay, I get it.

But then if she gives you your phone number, something, I don't know. So I can imagine after 13 years of, like, not even talking to a girl in that way, that's gotta be pretty crazy. Oh, I'm super nervous. Yeah, you're nervous. Oh, I mean, I'm nervous, but, I mean, nervous, but I'm not.

But I'm, like I said, shameless. It seemed, though, as she was, if she resisted it for, like, three weeks, that that resistance was honest. Three weeks. You said you. Months.

Months. Okay. The resistance was like, she was steadfast in that. But she's texting me where friends were texting. It's a shit tag.

Graham Stephan
She could be lonely. I don't know. A shit test. She's putting up the test. I wouldn't listen to this guy.

I mean, yeah, what do I know? What do I know? I would say, we got to take. Notes from you in the end, she said, like, she will now tell you I resisted being with him because she said, I thought he was. She's.

Matthew Cox
I'd never met anybody like him. Like, she's. I've never met anybody like you, she said, and I thought, this guy's going to be successful, and he's going to realize he can do better than me, and he's just gonna break my heart. She goes, so I don't. This isn't the kind of guy I date.

She dates a guy that drives a forklift. She dates a guy that goes hunting for a living. She dates a guy that is a mechanic. That's the guys that she's dated her whole life. And she said, I knew you were gonna be successful.

And she said, I just thought there's no reason to even pursue anything. That's what she says now. It's funny, because when she said that, at first, I used to think she was bullshitting, but the truth is, after getting to know her, she's just not a bullshitter. And I think that's what she really believed the whole time. And now we're married, I'm sure it.

Jack Selby
Can'T hurt to look kind of like Cillian Murphy. I don't know who that is. Oh, doesn't it? Doesn't he? I was thinking that.

Graham Stephan
I was thinking that. No, look at Graham, like, the fate head on. Doesn't he kind of look a little bit. I don't know. I couldn't help but think that for.

Jack Selby
For so much of this podcast that you look just like this guy. He's a. He's an actor, and I think, like, a lot of girls kind of go crazy over him. Phoenix a little bit. Like, if you say.

Graham Stephan
If you said you were related, like, you know, a cousin or something, I could see that maybe this guy. You can't. Maybe I thinking you look just like. That guy, kind of. I don't know.

I can see it. He's taller, maybe. I don't know. I could kind of see it. What dating advice do you have for Jake?

Matthew Cox
Are you serious? Why don't. You don't have a girlfriend? No, I don't have a girlfriend. No.

Aren't there dating mystery? Yeah. Honestly, I don't know if I, like, necessarily need advice. The only thing that I really struggle with is a lot of the times I'll talk to girls that I'm not super interested in. What is this?

Jack Selby
This is like a fleet or something. Look at that. What the fuck is it? I don't know. It's like jumping around.

You see it? Yeah. It's not a flea. I feel like you guys aren't worried about me getting. Getting out of here.

Oh, sorry. Yeah, we got it. We got to worry about that. Okay. Matt Cox, thank you so much for coming on the iced coffee hour.

We really appreciate it. You are so generous with your time, and it means the world to us. I'll drive you to the airport. Oh, really? Okay.

That makes me get out of here a little quicker. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate it. I got to get a picture with.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Also, if you're interested. Macy wants to give you some food to go. Oh, shoot. Great.

Graham Stephan
Okay, I'll text her a yes on that. Sounds good. And all of Matt's links down below. Thank you guys for watching. Until next time.

Until next time.

FBI's Most Wanted Con Artist: How To Get Insanely Rich | Matthew Cox

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Episode Chapters

1: Introduction to Matthew Cox

2: Deep Dive into Fraud Techniques

3: The Psychological Play

4: Consequences and Capture

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