462: How To Have Better Conversations

Chase Kosterlitz
Hi, guys. Thanks so much for tuning in to today's show, where I welcome you. Welcome, Ashley Kirstner. And Ashley is the founder and director of Skip the small talk social Impact startup focused on combating the loneliness epidemic through nationwide in person events. Skip the small talk events are based on Ashley's social and clinical psychology research at Cornell University, the Harvard Decision Science Lab, the Harvard Business School, the University of Miami, and McLean Hospital.

And today, Ashley and I took talk about her work and how to become more vulnerable. And maybe you feel like you're vulnerable, but your partner is not. How to encourage their vulnerability. And then we dive into how to have better conversations and ask better questions. I really like the specific examples that Ashley gave.

Some really valuable practices that you can put into your personal lives, into your relationships, if they're romantic or really all of your relationships. I really enjoyed the tools that Ashley provided today. As always, thank you guys so much for tuning in. Enjoy today's show.

Hi, Ashley. Thanks so much for joining me on the show today. Thanks so much for having me. Today we're going to talk about the amazing work that you're doing with the program, skip the small talk, which you now have a card deck out that I'm excited to share with our listeners. But I thought we could start by having you tell our listeners why you enjoy doing this work that you're doing, how you got into it, and then we'll talk about ways that we can have better conversations.

Ashley Kirsner
Yeah, I can share a little bit about how I got into it. So, um, it actually started when I was volunteering at a suicide hotline. Um, and I was noticing that regardless of what people were calling in about, that people were generally pretty hesitant to share whatever difficulties they were going through with the people they cared about. So they were happy to spill their guts to me, a total stranger. But when I would ask them, like, hey, you mentioned you have a boyfriend, or you mentioned that you live with a roommate that you care about, or you mentioned that you're close with your family.

When I would ask, have you shared what you're going through with those people? Almost invariably people would say, oh, we just don't talk about that sort of thing, or, oh, I don't want to burden them, or, oh, for, you know, what a million reasons, I don't feel comfortable sharing that with them. So for summary, you know, after some time of hearing that over and over again, I started asking people, well, if the roles were reversed and, you know, it was your roommate or your parent or, you know, whoever that was, who was going through something difficult, would you want them to tell you about it? And without exception, in my whole time at the suicide highline, everybody said, oh, well, of course if they were going through something difficult, I would want to know about it. So there is clearly this sort of difference in how vulnerable people felt comfortable being and how vulnerable people wanted others to be with them.

So after I discovered this, I was wondering, could I sort of put people in a room and sort of tell them all that they all opted in to sharing a little more and being a little more vulnerable. And then would people, you know, I was hoping it would be. I sort of thought of it as a vulnerability gym where people could try out sharing a little bit more than they might in their everyday life and then go back to the people in their lives and share, you know, feel comfortable sharing a little more with them. And I really just did it as a one time thing and it was supposed to be 3 hours long. We had to kick people out after 7 hours.

People, you know, I had everyone come up, a bunch of people came up to me after and said, oh, so when's the next one of these? And I said, oh, there isn't. And people kept saying, well, we'd really love another one, so can you please make another one happen? So I said, fine, I'll just keep hosting these until people stop showing up. And it's been about seven years later, people keep showing up.

So I've continued hosting them. Amazing. Well, there's so much I want to dive into with you. Let's talk about vulnerability and why you think, and I'm sure you have some research in this area as well, but that people struggle with being vulnerable and why sometimes it may be easier for people to share with a complete stranger than, let's say, their romantic partner. Yeah, I mean, so I sort of have a personal take on this, that it's really, the more you avoid vulnerability, the scarier it is, which is supported by some research in how anxiety works.

So basically, I used to work at an anxiety lab specifically for social anxiety. And basically what we find in all kinds of anxiety and all kinds of phobias is like, the more you avoid a thing, the scarier it is to you. And so I think if you're not used to vulnerability and you don't, you know, maybe you grow up in a culture where it's not as, you know, it's not the norm for people to be vulnerable or even if you're just, you know, a man, especially for men in, you know, american culture, it is so difficult. You know, it's just so non normative to, you know, share your feelings with your friends or like, you know, people don't even have a roadmap for how that's supposed to go. If you're going, like, how to share with a friend that you're going through a hard time, people are just not used to it.

And so I think the more you don't do it over time, the more difficult it becomes to do it. And so I think just by the fact that it's not, you know, we don't have a lot of easy, normative ways to be vulnerable with people, that it then gets more and more difficult over time to be vulnerable with folks. That makes sense. It's kind of like if there's something that's bugging you that you want to share with your partner and you're scared of their reaction or whatever, it's almost like the longer you keep that, the more it's going to build up and create anxiety. And, yeah, it's not comfortable to sit with that.

Chase Kosterlitz
So how can someone practice more vulnerability and opening up and let's say, in the context of a romantic relationship? And then I want to talk about day to day other interpersonal interactions. Yeah. I really like the model of cognitive behavioral therapy. If we're thinking about sort of, if we think about it as either an anxiety or a phobia about vulnerability, I think cognitive behavioral therapy gives us a sort of look into what can make it easier to do.

Ashley Kirsner
For instance, the way cognitive behavioral therapy works is, let's say I am anxious about social interaction, for instance, is they would give me increasingly intense sort of challenges, almost so that you're slowly exposing yourself to more and more of the thing you're afraid of or anxious about. So that's sort of what I generally recommend to folks, is to try and be vulnerable on the smaller things. So even as little of like, as, like, you know, someone really, you know, made me angry at work today. And so sharing this, like, little vulnerability that, like, maybe if your partner isn't totally, like, you know, doesn't give you the perfect response to it, that it's not going to ruin your whole relationship, it's just a small risk. So I think taking increasingly large risks over time makes a huge, huge difference.

And I think it's something people don't really think about. Like, I am myself in a relationship of five years, and it's been such a, with a, a wonderful man, and it's so difficult to really convince. I think especially, I know I said it before, but really, men have such a hard time knowing how to be vulnerable and knowing when it's okay to be vulnerable and even realizing that people want them to be vulnerable. I think that's just not a message that we give to people in general, and especially not to men. What's a way that someone listening?

Chase Kosterlitz
Cause I feel like someone listening that feels like it's really hard to be vulnerable. These are good tips, but I think it could be almost more valuable, someone listening who they themselves feel like they're able to open up to their partner, but their partner is closed off. What are some ways that they can encourage their partner to share without being, like, too pressing or overbearing? Yeah, honestly, I really. I really like positive reinforcement.

Ashley Kirsner
Just whenever they do share something, especially if they share something about an internal state, so they're not just sharing sequentially. Here's what happened in work. And then. And then. And then, of course, that's great to reinforce and say, thanks for telling, you know, show enthusiasm, be an active listener.

But especially if they express any feeling, even if it's, I was really annoyed at someone at work today, or I was really, you know, I felt really bummed that XYZ happened. Really being an active listener is. Makes such a big difference. So that entails, you know, not just saying, aha, aha. But also, you know, there's this idea of showing that you are understanding what they are saying.

So it's not just the intake of information, it's also giving them information that, yes, I've been paying attention. So the way, for example, that we're trained to do that at suicide hotline is there's a few tools we use. We use open ended questions, like the ones you ask on your podcast. Lovely questions that sort of get you talking about, allow you to sort of decide the direction that you're going in, as opposed to yes or no questions. We also use reflections, which are basically just summarizing what the person said.

And I like adding, does that sound right? After I summarize it? Which is a tool that's so, so useful and so magical, but it feels kind of weird to do because we're not used to really summarizing what someone says and then saying yes, is that correct? But it's actually, when you start doing it, people feel so understood and seen. So that's one concrete tool for sure people can use.

And then the other one I really like is validation. So just sharing with people, like, oh, that totally makes sense that you would feel that way. Or like, you know, I also would totally feel that way if I were in that situation. Or, like, I can see from what you're telling me that, you know, that would be really upsetting. So just being able to share that, like, whatever they're feeling is normal.

So at the suicide hotline, those are really, aside from, like, assessing suicide risk, which is a very, like, specific sort of, you know, process you need to go through, there's also these three skills are basically the only thing you do in a conversation with someone. And it's crazy just how, you know, I remember, like, being at the suicide hotline and talking to folks where I'm like, oh, my gosh, they really do have a really difficult time. I have no idea how I'm going to get them to a point where they're feeling safe. I truly don't know. And all I would do would just use those three tools, reflection, validation, open ended questions.

And somehow by the end of, like, ten minutes, they would be like, oh, thank you. I feel so much better. And it's just so counterintuitive to our fix everything culture where we always want to like, well, I have a solution for you. Like, you really, you know, a lot of the problems I heard just don't really have solutions, or at least not solutions that I feel equipped to, you know, problem solving with them necessarily. But, yeah, just those three tools are enough to make people feel seen and understood in a way that really makes them want to share more with you.

Like, it was almost a problem at the suicide hotline. We had callers who would love how seen and understood. They felt that they would just call multiple times a day as often as they could, even when they're not a high suicide risk, which actually they're totally allowed to do at the suicide hotline. Like, you know, I loved that we were able to talk to people who were, like, feeling lonely, but maybe not necessarily like, a high suicide risk and hopefully stop people from getting to that point. But yeah, it was a big deal.

People really, even by just using those three tools, it's enough to really make people feel understood and help them feel less lonely and help them really know that vulnerability is a safe, okay thing to do with you. Before we continue on, we're going to take a short break to tell you about our sponsors.

Sarah Kosterlitz
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Chase Kosterlitz
I just want to reiterate the three things, because as you went over them and described it, and I've said this before on the podcast, but this is, like, I feel like that's, like, my love language. And I think, like, we all want to feel understood, right? And that's how we feel seen and that we matter. So if we're talking to our partner and they're asking us open ended questions, they're reflecting back to us, and they're validating our experience. I mean, it's so powerful to be able to receive that and to give that to your partner.

And I'm wondering, is there a way other than, I mean, I guess we could just share this or share these things with our partner? Because I think it starts with ourselves that we can give this to our partner, but how can we communicate to someone, like, hey, I really love it when you ask me open ended questions. I guess, like, how can we bring that to them? Or you mentioned your partner, like, how would you be like, hey, could you do this a little bit more without saying it that way? Yeah.

Ashley Kirsner
I mean, honestly, I feel like my strategy is mostly to positively reinforce it, to say it's as simple as being saying something like, oh, my God, that is a great question. Let me think about that. Or, wow, if someone does a great reflection, say, oh, yeah, that is exactly it. Thank you. You totally get it.

So just those little things totally can do the job sometimes. But honestly, a lot of the time, you do need to get to that better level of, like, hey, you ask phenomenal questions, like, I feel so understood when you do that. Can you, like, would you be comfortable actually, like, doing that more regularly? I love it. Or, like, you know, I love when you, you know, make me feel validated, even though, you know, when I'm in a stupid fight.

I love it when you say that the. You know, that I. You know, my feelings are totally reasonable. Like, can you. You know, I.

I wonder if you could do that more just because I love it when you do that. So I think explicitly asking works totally fine, especially if you're framing it as like, I love this, and I feel connected to you when I experience this, and my goal is to feel connected to you. Like, how could anyone say no to that? It's such a. It's such a simple ass.

Like, you know, especially if you frame it in terms of, like, this isn't because you're doing anything wrong. It's not about what you're not doing. It's just that my goal is to feel as close to you as I can. And I notice this is when I feel connected to you. I love it.

Chase Kosterlitz
Such a valuable thing to do in all areas of our relationships is that positive reinforcement instead of. It's easy to focus on the negative, it takes a little bit more conscious effort to point out the positive, whether it's with what we're talking about, or it's just like, hey, I really love how you took out the trash last night. That was super helpful. Those little bids for connection, or it's not even a bid, but, like, a reinforcement that that's really makes up a relationship. And the little things are the big things.

Ashley Kirsner
Yeah, it's huge. And honestly, another sort of small detail that I've started doing that seems to make a pretty big difference is when I say, like, I like when you do XYZ or, thank you for doing XYZ. I try and share what impact it has on me. I try to share the inside, what's going on for me on the inside that they would not otherwise see. So even with example, as simple of taking out the trash, like, oh, thank you so much for taking out the trash.

Once I saw that, I opened the trash and I saw that there was a new bag there, I cannot tell you how much I felt my blood pressure lower. Thank you so much for making my day so much calmer her with that one thing. Or, like, you know, if you're like, oh, hey, I noticed you asked this really great question, and actually, I was thinking about it, you know, you had me thinking about it for much longer, and I discovered XYZ about myself, and that was really helpful. Thank you. So the more about your internal world that you can share about how they're positively impacting you, the closer you can feel to someone.

And again, it's not something we do. It's not, you know, when's the last time you went to a friend and said, like, hey, when we hang out, I feel really close to you? Like, we just don't have the vocabulary for it. So I think, honestly, just doing it, trying it in the smaller ways, like, you took out the trash, here's how it impacted me. And then building up to, like, here's what you mean to me as a friend, as a partner, as whatever is probably going to be a little easier than just going straight to, like, you know, the here's how much you mean to me kind of conversation.

Chase Kosterlitz
I love it. It's such an important reminder. This might be a new idea to someone, or it's just a reminder, and we gotta constantly do it because it doesn't necessarily come naturally. We're not taught it. Usually it's not modeled for us, unfortunately.

So thank you for the great examples and the reminder. I wanna talk about some open ended questions because the name of your organization has skipped a small talk. And to me, one of the more powerful ways to have more meaningful conversations is to have better questions. So what are some of the things that you're seeing or that you're modeling for people as far as asking better questions? And we could talk about in a romantic partnership or I like also examples from everyday interactions.

Ashley Kirsner
Yeah, I would say I think a big theme both in what I try to do in my everyday life, as well as what we do at skip the small talk, both with our question prompt cards that we use to help people start conversations, as well as just overarching. The vibe that we try and go for is we try is generally trying to go for asking questions about internal states. So, for example, instead of saying, like, you know, you could start with, like, where are you from? And if someone just gives you a one word answer, like, I'm from Miami, as a simple follow up question, like, oh, what was that like for you growing up there? Like, oh, what did you think about it as a place to grow up?

Or, you know, things that sort of get people talking about, like, did you like it? Did you not like it? What was it like for you? The more you can sort of draw out people's feelings about it, the more close you'll both feel to each other, and the more comfortable the other person will feel being vulnerable with you. So if you can draw out those sort of internal states, which is what our question prompts do as well.

So I'm trying to think of a few. In what ways are you different from the person you were five years ago? In what ways are you the same? That's a question where you can go in a ton of different directions, but a direction people often go into is, like, how they've changed internally and how they are internally now. So, yeah, any little questions that get you there, especially for everyday conversation?

And, yeah, I think a lot of people hesitate to talk about feelings because, you know, it feels like a really big deal to ask, like, how are you feeling right now? Which is fair. I think that is a tough, you know, I don't think that's really a normative thing to say, so unless you're quite close with someone. So I think the little things, you know, asking what an experience was, like. Like, oh, I just came back from a trip to China.

Oh, how was that? What did you think? Or like, oh, was that scary to, like, were you by yourself? How was that to be by yourself? So I really, like, really simple questions.

Like, how was that? What was that like for you? Because it does sort of draw people into thinking more about their internal experience as opposed to, like, well, you know, the sort of, we did this and then we did this and then we did this. So, yeah, I think any internal state question, I think another thing that is that I hesitate to give, like, you know, I think a lot of people like having questions that they can go into any conversation with, but the reality is that a lot of questions are going to feel out of place if you're not being present and sort of responding to whatever's happening in the moment. So, you know, I can give question.

You know, I feel like this is a question that comes up a lot for folks who come to our events. They're like, can you give me, like, three questions I can ask any stranger that are going to make me feel more connected to them. But I think the thing that makes you feel most connected is sort of being as present as you can and asking things about, like, hey, we're both in the same environment right now. I can comment on the environment and ask your opinion on that. Or I notice you are wearing these really cool earrings that have a specific style to them.

Can we talk about that? So I think anything that brings you into the present is going to be really helpful. But I know that's also such a tall order, especially for folks who are anxious about being in social situations. So I think a much like, in order to be asking those really good questions, I feel like the skill that I recommend the most is actually mindfulness, which is just about trying to be present. And if you're freaking out, that's totally fine.

You're still doing mindfulness beautifully because if you're aware that you're freaking out, that's all mindfulness asks of you. I think there's a lot of people think of mindfulness and think, oh, I need to be. My mind needs to be completely quiet. I need to be completely at peace with whatever is happening around me when that's not really possible for a lot of people. And that's not really even the part of mindfulness that makes you feel more present.

The part that makes you feel present is just the awareness of, oh, hey, I notice I'm freaking out a little or oh wow. I'm noticing my heart racing and my palms getting sweaty. And honestly, just that simple thing can make you feel a lot more grounded and can help you over time to be more present and be there for when an opportunity to ask an awesome question comes up. Before we continue on, we're going to take a short break to tell you about our sponsors when all you want is to have a cute date night or get something special for your partner. Waiting for payday can be agonizing, but you don't have to wait anymore.

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Chase Kosterlitz
Are there any exercises or questions? And I know with the context of it's about being mindful, but I do like the prompts because I think it helps people get thinking about ways to think that you use in your partnership. Yeah, totally. I. Yeah, some questions, I mean, I really like gratitude based questions for ongoing relationships.

Ashley Kirsner
So, for instance, my partner and I, when, you know, realistically, we don't do it every single day, but we shoot for every day doing, saying at least three things we're grateful for the other person about. And it really does change just so much about how you see the those like a ten minute investment or five minute investment every day just goes so far in like, I've been surprised at how far reaching it is that even throughout the day it just makes you look out a little more for the positive things. Like, it just changes the wiring of what you are more sensitive to, which is a really big deal when you're in a long term relationship, as I'm sure listeners know. But definitely gratitude based questions. And also, it's funny, I think we assume that we know everything about our partner just because we've been with them a while.

But I actually took out my question prompt deck and did a few questions with my partner, mostly to try out the questions. But then I did discover, like, oh, wow, I really, there's a lot of stories I've never heard. There's a lot of, you know, opinions I never knew that you had. So I think if you have, if someone else is opting into an experience where you're basically like, asking these questions that are going to be a little deeper, you know, some questions I really like are the question I mentioned earlier about, you know, in what ways are you different from the person you were five years ago? What ways are you the same?

I also like, if you've gotten an opt in from somebody that you've recently met and they're interested in sort of going a little deeper. I really, like, describe yourself through the eyes of someone who loves you, because then you get, I don't know, I think a couple things happen. People get to, you know, describe the best versions of themselves, and they also, you know, the look on people's faces when they're actually thinking about it is one of the sweetest things I've ever seen. So that's a nice bonus. And, yeah, I think, you know, what I really like doing is sitting down with, like, my question prompt deck and deciding on the questions.

And, you know, I think there's some that are level of depth that, like, you wouldn't want to go into with everyone or even in any mood or in any setting. Like, I think one of the sort of spicier questions is, like, what healing do you have left to do? And, you know, that's going to be a much bigger conversation. You maybe, you know, if you're killing time in line at the doctor's office, that might not be the thing you want to get into. But, yeah, I think, you know, some of the questions that we have are like, you know, you could really ask.

I was actually using them last Thanksgiving with my family, and my sister in law's mother and father were there. They're basically in their eighties. They've been together for something like 60 years, and they were discovering things about each other that they hadn't known before. So really just starting those conversations and if you can get opt in, like, those questions can do such magic. That's beautiful.

Chase Kosterlitz
I love that in their eighties, they're learning new things and, yeah, that's the power of asking good questions. And I appreciate the prompts. I was writing them down, and I'm excited to use them. Thank you so much for this conversation. Ashley.

Before we wrap up, can you tell our listeners where they can find you online about your work and about the card deck and if there's anything you want to leave our listeners with, and then we'll say goodbye. Yeah, awesome. So you can find us@skipthesmalltalk.com. we host events that are basically like speed friending events as well as some speed dating events in 20 plus cities throughout the US. I think we're at now as well as a couple international ones.

Ashley Kirsner
We also have the question prompt card deck available. It's on Amazon or on Simon and Schuster if you prefer. Those are the big things. We also do college and corporate events, and those you can also check out@skipthesmalltalk.com. and yeah, I love that question of one thing to leave people with.

I think if there's one thing that I hope people will leave with, it's that being vulnerable is so much safer than people realize. It is that just because of the series of biases that human brains are subject to, vulnerability is always going to feel scarier than the repercussions actually are. So if you and, you know, the cost benefit analysis of it is just like the benefits of it are just, you know, the greatest experiences that being a human can offer. So it's kind of hard to beat that. So basically, I would urge people to, you know, in whatever small ways you can, as often as you can, to just try being a little more vulnerable than you might be otherwise.

Because, yeah, it can. Even those small moments make such a big difference in making you feel more connected. I love that. Thank you so much, Ashley, for taking the time to come on the show today. We'll have all those links in our show notes and on our website, and I really enjoyed today's conversation.

Yes, same here. Thank you so much. This is great. Thank you guys so much for tuning into today's episode. As always, all the links to the guest, as well as any of their recommendations will be in the show notes page.

Sarah Kosterlitz
You can find the link to that in the episode description or by going to idopodcast.com. click on the podcast tab up at the top and you will have access to all the episodes that we've ever done. There are over 300 of them. And while you're on our website, if you haven't checked out our free 14 day happy couple challenge, we really hope you do. It's a free email challenge that we send to you.

It's 14 days of fun, easy, doable challenges to help strengthen and improve your relationship. And if you're looking for something that provides a little more help with working on your relationship, whether it's improving intimacy or communication with your partner or just bringing the spark back, we would love for you guys to check out our online course, spark my relationship. We're offering $100 off to all of our listeners if you go to sparkmyrelationship.com unlock. We've worked with over 15 psychologists and therapists to create the real life tools and strategies that they are teaching their clients. So we wanted to give them to you.

It's a self paced online course that can be done in as little as a month or up to three months. You can really decide how much or how little you want to do with your partner. Or maybe just yourself. So we hope you guys check that out. It's sparkmyrelationship.com.

unlock. Have a great day.

Chase Kosterlitz
You were listening to a pleasure podcast. For more from our sex podcast collective, visit pleasurepodcasts.com.

462: How To Have Better Conversations

Primary Topic

Episode Summary

Main Takeaways

Episode Chapters

1: Introduction

2: The Role of Vulnerability

3: Practical Tips for Better Conversations

4: Encouraging Openness in Partners

5: Conclusion

Actionable Advice

About This Episode

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Transcript