Orna Guralnik (Couples Therapy)

Dan Rather
Welcome, welcome. Welcome to armchair expert. Experts on expert, I'm Dan Rather. I'm joined by modest mouse. We have the most special guest today.

Modest Mouse
I can't believe this happened to us. Some people in the comments sensed the Easter egg, which I didn't mind at all because they were as excited as we were about our very favorite therapist from our favorite show, which is called couples therapy. Our doctor in residence on couples therapy, Orna Guralnik. Orna's here. Orna.

Dan Rather
Oh, my God. What a thrill this was. I wish I could measure how much brain space I give to Orna, how much I think about her and her advice and her abilities. I want her advice. Me too.

Yeah. Spoiler. We did the right thing and we didn't take up this interview asking personal advice. But it was tempting. Sometimes it came out a little bit.

Yeah, a little bit happened right out of the gates, I think. Okay. Orna is a clinical psychologist and a psychoanalysis. She is on the faculty NYU Postdoctoral Institute for Psychoanalysis and at the National Institute for the Psychotherapies. Season four premieres tomorrow on paramount.

Plus with Showtime. Couples therapy season four. We've seen it. It's spectacular. So good.

So please enjoy. Orna Grolnik. We are supported by Taco Bell. Oh, man. We often do two recordings a day and we have this little nice lunch break that we enjoy.

Modest Mouse
And we're always craving something really yummy. Yes. Something fresh, something high quality. Something like the all new cantina chicken menu from Taco Bell, which is exactly that. Mm, it's so yummy.

It has slow roasted chicken, the pico that purple cabbage, and an avocado verde salsa sauce. Oh, delicious. Outrageous. The new cantina chicken tacos, burrito and quesadilla are the perfect daytime choice. Try the new cantina chicken menu at Taco Bell.

Dan Rather
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Modest Mouse
If it's tailored to your body, you. Could have a kabillion dollar suit. And if it doesn't fit, it looks terrible. Yeah. Agreed.

Dan Rather
Yeah. It's key. Men's warehouse is everywhere, with 600 plus locations nationwide. So if you need one, and you will, there's one near you. Feel like you can do anything in an outfit from men's warehouse.

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Orna Guralnik
He's an object expert.

Dan Rather
Is that Nico? You're who I've been waiting to meet? Nico, there's a fox in the attic. It's a wolf, not a fox. No, she's a fox.

Orna Guralnik
She's a wolf. Hi, sweet wolf. She's a wolf in fox clothing, which is a rare, almost never occurs. She's actually a human in a wolf's clothing. Hi.

Modest Mouse
Hi. I'm Dax. Nice to meet you. We're so excited. Thank you for inviting me.

Dan Rather
I brought a fam. If you can indulge us with your. But you're on par with Niko for me. So I'm gonna take my moment because I'm getting a nice push against my body. She's smiling.

Orna Guralnik
She's smiling. You say, mom, I have a friend. How old is Niko? Niko's almost eight. Oh, my goodness.

Energy. But she's almost eight. Her face is so youthful. Oh, another friend is here. Niko's here.

Modest Mouse
Excuse me. You very popular. Very. Nico's kind of like the dog in anatomy of a fall. Was that dog's name Nico?

No. Holding a lot of secrets. Thank you. Hi, Monica. So nice to meet you.

I'm thrilled. We're all pretty. Yeah, you're in it. You're in the right place. It's only once in a while we have someone that is in something we consume, you know, pathologically.

Dan Rather
Yeah. Yeah. Because there's only so many shows. So it's like once in a while, someone from our very favorite show comes and it's extra exciting. Well, if Nico needs anything, I'm in the house.

Modest Mouse
Call her. If she needs a potty break, I'm. Happy to take her out. Have a wonderful time. I can't wait to hear it.

Dan Rather
Hi, mommy. Hi, buddy. Hi. You're fun on your chick. So much fun.

Orna Guralnik
Have a wonderful time, you guys. Love you. Love you. Money. How was your two days?

Modest Mouse
It was fine. It was fine. Yeah. I had a little bit of a meltdown. I have a big update for you.

Dan Rather
Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Involving the people on the sidewalk. No. Okay.

Modest Mouse
I haven't seen that. Oh, actually, I do have an update. So I've been. I'm curious what's happening. I've been going on runs, and there's a group of people who stand in the middle of the sidewalk for an hour that's obviously a place they've decided to congregate and talk and talk.

And it's a lot of people, a lot of dogs, and they don't move when you're coming, when you're running down the street. And it's been making me crazy. And Dax suggested I take another route. That's the obvious. Like, yeah, but I hit her with the serenity prayer from AA, my fall under the category of things I cannot change.

It's the obvious solution. Yes, exactly. But you don't want the obvious solution. You want to fight. Actually, I don't want to fight because.

Orna Guralnik
You just want the world to change. I do want the world to change. And to be fair to me, the other route would require the run to be a lot harder. Cause it's all so. You're just lazy.

Modest Mouse
Hi. Oh, no, this is okay. This is awful. You know what's amazing is you're getting to do something you don't actually do on the show, which is like, you run right at it. Like, I'm gonna solve all this in eight minutes, not ten weeks.

No, no, no. I did change. I changed my time. There we go. That's not the update.

The update is that I know I've talked about it on here. So my passive aggressive hope was that maybe it would get back to them. And I don't care if they stand there. I just want them to step out of the way when people are coming. Anyway, one of our friends knows one of the people standing there, as you.

Dan Rather
Might guess from your reaction, and I had a certain one. It's been a polarizing topic in the comments. Oh, it has? Oh, it has. I don't know.

There's a lot of team Monica, and there's a lot of people going, you know, saying what? That I should run in the street. No more what I brought up, which is, like, if you look at it from a utilitarian point of view, it's like, you know what? You're one person. There are ten people communing.

This is just measurably more effort, more. Effort for them to not for ten. People to adjust what they're doing versus the one person right. Even though what they're doing, especially if. They'Re standing and talking with their dogs, it's probably a nice thing.

Community. But in the middle of the sidewalk where everyone's walking. Sidewalk. Do you think the sidewalk is for standing and taking? Orna, I need you on my crib.

This is huge of an ever evolving crisis here. A situation. Yeah, for a couple days. There's always a situation. This should cue you into our level of privilege, that this is the enormous issue in our combined life.

It's symbolic enormously. She is a minority. This is the majority. Right. There's minority also.

Modest Mouse
I mean, I didn't even think about that. All right, I need to readjust. Okay, there we go. Reorienting members of minority in this world. And specifically from Georgia.

Dan Rather
So from the south, I think that group does represent something a little bit different. So the group needs to immediately move. No, they don't need to move. They don't need to stop congregating. They just need to take one step out of the way when someone is coming through.

Modest Mouse
I just can't imagine someone running at me and me just staring at them and not moving. I've had to move. I mean, maybe this is a minority thing. I have to move. My whole life I've moved around people.

Dan Rather
There's also an interesting dynamic that you live in New York and we live in LA, which has its own cultures about moving about. What is the culture here? You know what's funny is when you. Are, you never stop. Right?

You try to run everyone down. You have this illusion of anonymity in it, and so you behave in a way that you would never on the sidewalk. That's fascinating. Which in New York is not true. The pedestrians totally rule.

Yeah. Yes. And it's incredibly democratizing. Even if you're a billionaire, you have to walk on that same sidewalk. Now.

What do you mean? In New York, if it was crowded, if someone did that, people would freak out. If someone did what? If they couldn't get through? Hmm.

Orna Guralnik
You're constantly in situations where you have to maneuver around everything, whether it's the city drilling into the street for the hundredth time. That's true. Or like a line for something, for a show or a bus. I mean, you're constantly maneuvering around a lot of people, and you just adjust. You just move around.

You're just cool with it. There's also randomly 7800 bags of trash. Like it's trash day and now there's a mountain of trash. Yeah. I'm not being disparaging.

Dan Rather
It's just a reality of the logistics of the city. I haven't noticed the trash. You haven't? No. You're probably not out late enough.

Now I know something about you. I'm out early. First of all, I want to ask a quick question about headphones. I'm just curious. You don't have to wear them or you can't.

Orna Guralnik
I don't want to wear them. Great. I was curious because it would not feel nice. And you're like, I don't want that feeling. I never wear headphones on interviews and stuff like that.

I don't understand why people do it. Actually, I could tell you. Tell me. From my point of view, it eliminates and reduces the stimuli to just your voice in Monica's. So it's a very kind of focusing auditory experience for me, which a lot of people don't need.

I don't need that. I have super focus and I actually like to hear all the ambience, so it feels real. If I'm too in the headphones, I'm like, wait, am I in reality? Is this pretend? Right.

Dan Rather
It kind of makes you self conscious of what you're hearing or overly aware of super focus. I don't need the super focus. I have my own bizarre dissociative focus. I don't need more of that. I want to feel in reality.

I like it. Okay. So when did you move to New York? 1990. From Israel?

Orna Guralnik
Yeah, I was born in the states. Oh, I was born in Georgia. Oh my gosh. No, I was born in DC and lived in Georgia. What part?

Actually, I was born in DC. I don't know. You don't know Atlanta? I don't know the neighborhood in Atlanta. Yeah.

Moved to Israel when I was seven. My parents are israeli and I lived in Europe. I lived in all sorts of places, but came back to the United States in 1990 for grad school at NYU. I went to grad school at Einstein, which is in the Bronx. Okay.

I did NYU later when I did. Psychoanalytic training, and I wanted to actually start with more of an umbrella question. There's obviously numerous reasons why a therapist keeps their private life private. I mean, you could list them, but there's quite obvious ones. There's like, it's a pretty important place for boundaries.

Mm hmm. Can you tell me what your assumption is? Yeah. My assumption of why that wall should exist to some degree. I think that knowing a lot about you distracts the person to some degree.

Dan Rather
And probably you are unavoidably drawn to make comparison. Like if you have children and I have children, and I'm dealing with something like, I'm gonna start using a lot of shortcuts, like, you know, and you understand I'm gonna be incorporating you a lot more than probably is fruitful. Is that some of it? That's a lot of it. When you know too much about another person, at least some of us feel inclined to then start taking care of them.

Yeah. It takes the focus away from you, as you were saying, whether it's comparison or caretaking or assumptions that, oh, I'm gay, they're straight, they're gonna judge me. It brings a lot of extra data into the room that gets in the way. It's why you have a therapist, sort of, to have it be a third party. Yeah.

Orna Guralnik
And then there's that thing called transference. You want the option for there to be somewhat of a blank screen so that you can project all sorts of things that you don't know and assume about your therapist. And that's part of the work that's, like, really interesting. Yeah. I would imagine, too, I could easily hear some details and now ascribe an archetype to you that is already triggering to me or resembles some parent or some teacher or whatever the thing is.

Or you'll hear some details and it will rob you of an archetype that you really needed to work on. Let's say you wanted to think that your therapist is a bigot, and then you find out actually they're married to a person very different from them, and it kind of ruins the fantasy. So given that, do you have certain reservations and misgivings about doing press and letting people get to know you and. Doing interviews and doing the show? Right, let's start with that.

First of all, I do keep certain boundaries, even when I do press and, you know, I have people do profiles on me, and I did draw certain boundaries that I thought would be just too much for my patients, but I think it's cost my patients something. The fact that I'm more of a public figure, that they know more about me. Has anyone said anything? It's interesting. Patients that have been with me since before I became this kind of public figure, they've said all sorts of things.

Lots of things. Yes. They've said they've suffered, they've carried a certain burden, but it became part of the work, as most things are people that joined my practice, since I've been doing it, it's just like a given. Okay. It would be impossible that you're not experiencing a lot of the things an actor experiences when they become known and the people in their life, it's a very triggering experience, because the first knee jerk fear is like, well, I won't be as important as this new status, or they're going to a status that I will get left by.

Dan Rather
So that's the story. So then the confirmation bias kind of takes over, and they look for only signs that that's happening, and I think it can dramatically affect. So, yeah, I would imagine some patients of yours are probably like, what am I? She's now on tv, and she's everywhere. Yes.

Orna Guralnik
I think many patients have had that question, and it keeps coming up. If I have to, let's say, cancel a session or now I'm traveling, certain patients will be like, oh, of course you're leaving me or canceling my session, because Hollywood. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So have you figured out an incredible technique to mitigate that? Cause I could sure benefit from that.

My real work, my real life is my practice. I love doing the show, and I love everything I've learned from it. And it's a really interesting world to visit. But my real life is my practice. That's where my heart is.

That's what I really, really love doing. Yeah, that's your real identity. I mean, everything is real, but that's my home. That's what I care about the most when patients bring up these kind of questions, because it's an opportunity for me to check in with myself and see am I still following what really matters to me? Am I getting distracted?

So I welcome it when people bring things up. You're right, because it has a power that's very hard to observe. Right. There's a draw to the public and to press and all of that. A certain kind of world of its own.

And it's great to have a real check in when people say, are you too busy for me? And I'm like, let me think about that. Let me be honest about that, first. Of all, with myself. So I encourage my patients to call me on it, if that's what it feels like.

Dan Rather
Yeah. Given that, are you comfortable telling me about where you're from and all that? Yeah. Okay, good. So, seven years old.

Orna Guralnik
Thanks for asking. Yeah, yeah. Because I guess, let me even be more transparent. We interview people. Robert Sapolsky.

Dan Rather
We interview. I don't know anyone. Okay. That's, like, the most embarrassing thing. I don't know anyone.

That's wonderful. He's not a celebrity. He's just, like, an intellectual guy. He is incredible. Eric Lander, head of Broad institute at MIT, people who study things that are really, really complex, and they have this enormous brain that they bring to bear on it.

And then what I also think is kind of interesting is very few of them. I think they take for granted the thing that interested them was innately interesting, and they're not really curious so much about why that was a comforting pursuit. So I'm most always interested when I talk to people of, like, how we think we ended up here and why that looked like a comfortable. You're thinking like an analyst. Okay, so I'm wondering.

I would be guessing, but moving a lot. All those dynamics and being in group, out group, and how are people thinking and being very incentivized to understand how people think. Was that happening? Totally. I was always with 1ft in a culture and 1ft out.

Orna Guralnik
My first language was English, and my parents spoke Hebrew between them, and I was the only jew in my first elementary school. I was always navigating a few different cultures at the same time. And like you're saying, trying to figure. It out, do you find that you would code switch? We maybe call it code switching, and then you even get curious.

Dan Rather
Do I even know? Could it get a little fragmented? In a way, it certainly helped creating what we call, kind of in jargon, multiple self states. So I have all sorts of self states. You know, when I'm speaking Hebrew and I'm with my peers, I have a certain slang and a certain way of being.

Orna Guralnik
That's me. And then when I switch to English and speak with my colleagues, I'm a different part of myself. So I code switch a lot. And I think when I was a younger person, there was some confusion about, wait, what part is authentic? What part is real?

Where is my real home? Over time, you figure it out, and you find that you're living in the in between, and it's all different versions. Yeah. Do you figure it out or you just get comfortable? You go, oh, yeah, I'm all these things.

Dan Rather
And that's just fine. I'm all these things. It's not always fine, but I'm all these things. I think, in a way, switching between all these different options has become sort of my life project, in the sense that when you work with couples, really, what you're trying to do, both as a therapist and what you're trying to teach people to do is to hold multiple perspectives in mind. You have a version of what happened, the person next to you has a very different version of what happened, and they might actually be totally valid.

Orna Guralnik
And there's also my version, looking from the outside, so there's validity to all of it, and there's interest in the tension between. So it's become kind of my life project, living multiplicity. These are my politics as well, so I made it work somehow. Yeah. On the show, you do get to see that.

Modest Mouse
Cause what I love about the show is we see you with your mentor, with Virginia. Yeah. Who seems amazing. And then you're with your other colleagues, and then we see you in practice, and you are a bit different in each of the surroundings, which is cool. And it is what we all do.

Orna Guralnik
Aren't we all? You're right. It's really fascinating. For ease of generic title, you're the boss in the room. Like, you sit in the seat, and then you go sit in this other scene.

Dan Rather
It's like, oh, it's a circle. So now this is more egalitarian. And then, yes, there's this kind of advisor role, and we get to. Yes. Take on these different.

Orna Guralnik
I like that. Layers in the hierarchy, which is fun. Now, you got your PhD in the nineties. There were options on the table at that time. Right.

Dan Rather
CBT is already an approach, and a lot of these things are approaches. So why specifically psychoanalysis? And I think it would be helpful for you to explain to us, describe the difference and maybe the evolution from Freud, psychoanalyzing till now. Awesome. Yeah.

In an article you wrote that I read, you gave us a really concise out of that. Oh, that's fun. Should I start more with theoretically, or should I start about my own journey? Yeah, tell me about your journey, because you're taking an intro to psych at some point, right? My intro to psych was not in college.

Orna Guralnik
My intro to psych was as a teenager. I had, let's say, a very active teenage life. Tumultuous, wild. And I got really, really lucky where my parents, who were clueless, but they somehow found this incredible analyst for me who changed my life. At what age?

16. I started reading Freud and Mnuchin and Artie Lang, and my whole world just opened up. That's really my introduction to the field, and it tremendously helped me understand myself, my family, what's happening in the world, all this mess of feelings that a teenager experiences. It all started to make more sense, and it was already a very psychoanalytic or psychodynamic approach. That's what helped me now just to divert and say a few words about what's the difference?

So some therapies are aimed at very direct problem solving. That's when you have behavioral therapy or cognitive behavioral therapy, where you target a problem and you analyze what leads to a certain behavior, how do you eliminate it, what leads to certain distorted thoughts, and how do you confront them? Logically, you can include all sorts of things like EMDR, all sorts of. Of other more physiological based ways to, let's say, calm anxiety or regulate emotion. All very helpful techniques of solving problems and dealing with more or less the here and now.

Psychoanalysis takes somewhat of a different approach, where the primary assumption, first of all, is that we're guided by deeply unconscious forces. And those are really interesting and really impactful to discover. There are all these different psychoanalytic techniques that basically open up a space of exploration internally, where you make sense of much deeper layers of what's motivating you and what's motivating the world around you. And that can include, like, early, early experiences in your life that shaped your way of thinking. It can include ways that your mind is driven by all sorts of impulses that society doesn't allow you to think about and you repress or dissociate from.

And psychoanalysis helps you find a language for. And something that myself and my peers have been very busy with is also ways in which also sort of socio cultural factors come into us and shape how we feel and think. And we're not used to thinking about it consciously. That's what your article I read was about. That's the piece in the Times, probably.

Dan Rather
Yeah, about the impact of BLM and me too, materializing in these relationships. So I think people understand this intuitively. We talked about it just now. When Monica sees this group on the street and they're all the hegemonic group, that means many things. It means the immediate thing, which is it's an obstacle, and then it means potentially other things from subconscious.

Orna Guralnik
You had to mention it. I didn't even clock that as a factor. But I know her so well. You would have within five minutes of talking, probably. You didn't have much time with me to get through.

I don't know. I don't know. I think if I wasn't quote white, probably I would have been more sensitive to that. I didn't think about it. I didn't think about it until you said that.

Modest Mouse
And I still don't know if it's a star. Yeah, you don't want to give me a star. I don't know for sure. At least to think about it, at least for it to be one of. The dimensions I can give a personal antidote, which is just generally, I get along so well with our nine year old.

Dan Rather
We have a very nice symbiotic flow. Boy, a girl, both girls. And the nine year old's very much like my wife, so I have a lot of practice. And then similarly, the eleven year old's like me and she does very well with her, so we rarely have a thing. And we're laying in bed and we're debating whether this math problem we did the day before, the answer was this or that.

And I said, no, it was this. And she said, no, it was not. It was this. You said that. That's what it was.

She said no. You said the answer was this. And I said, well, no, I would have never said that because this times this is that. So I would have said that. And now we're getting into the weeds and we are now arguing about what I said and what I didn't say, and it's uncharacteristic.

And I go to bed that night and I'm like, that was out of the blue. And then the next day I said to her, honey, I'm so sorry. You stumbled into my primal fear of being dyslexic and stupid. And so it's so important to me that, you know, I'm smart and I got that right and I was just emotionally so activated by that. But it's from when I was your age and I'm so sorry.

And it doesn't matter what I said, and probably you're right or whatever, but that's what was happening. So it's like, yes, she and I are having, on the surface is we're debating whether I said this or that. But actually something quite profound is happening for you. Yes. And the stakes are high.

If there's anyone I want to appear to be smart in front of, it's my children. So that would be my subconscious, right? Yes. Does it frustrate you? I get a little frustrated because we do interview people that practice many different approaches to this.

Are you annoyed by the techniques being pitted against each other? Because I feel like, what are we talking about? Is a jaw great or is lifting weights great or is pilates great? All these things are probably beneficial health wise. I agree with you.

Orna Guralnik
There is a way in which I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about these shorter term techniques for sort. First of all, there's the way in which managed care has taken over medicine and the mental health field and has demanded a certain level of superficiality that I find really troubling. Like they want results and they want. A timeline I don't know what they mean by results. Stop complaining and just be quiet.

Medicate yourself and just stop complaining. That's not results for a psychoanalyst. A lot of the complaining is about things that should be complained about and need deep addressing. In that sense, I have a bit of a chip about shorter term techniques, and there are CBT techniques that can be incredibly useful. And sometimes you do need quick and short term solutions for things.

But as a way of living, I'm pro the examined life. Take your time. Slowness, go deep. I guess I'm suggesting it's all a false dichotomy, which is you could be doing that work and you could also assemble a toolkit for these acute periods where that's appropriate. That's the tool to pull out at that moment.

Modest Mouse
Yeah. And I refer to cognitive behavioral therapists or to EMDR. I like working with people that work that way. It's just funny to see tribalism percolate up in something so like. Right.

Orna Guralnik
I think when it's tribalism, it's just ego. It's not interesting. Now take us from Freud's kind of primary concept with the subconscious and then. Where we're at now in terms of like, psychoanalytic thinking. Yeah, fun question.

Dan Rather
Thank you. So Freud, he introduced a few hugely important, revolutionary concepts. First of all, the idea that we are governed by many forces of motivation that we are unaware of, just the fact that we're governed by an unconscious was like a huge revolution. We all now take it for granted, but that was huge. And this is like victorian era when everything is about just regulating behavior, you know, corsets.

Orna Guralnik
And then he introduced the importance of sexuality as like a driving force, libido sexuality, that it's already alive and kicking in children. The children are motivated by all sorts of sexual fantasies. These were all very big concepts that, again, we take it for granted now, but it was huge. Yeah. And dangerous and needing to be regulated.

We're always regulating sexuality. Society is always super panicky, anxious about sexuality. And all about regulation, I find uniquely. Here, but maybe not uniquely, we're pretty. Good at it in America.

Dan Rather
Yeah, we're high on the spot. And then came people after Freud, like the Kleinians, the british object relation school that started looking not only at drives like sexuality or aggression, but they started looking at early childhood and what happened, for example, between mothers and babies. It doesn't have to be mothers, but they particularly looked at mothers and really early experiences, even at the breast, where what we like to think of as these beautific moments of bliss between mother and baby. Actually, they hold within them huge drama you remember from raising your kids. The baby can be blissfully happy and then 20 minutes later they're wet and hungry and they're like, rah.

Orna Guralnik
Screaming and the world is ending. Worst and best day of their life within 20 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. The great mom that was there a minute ago, the great dad that was there a minute ago, are now the most hated object in the world.

Cause they're not able to supply the food fast enough. They're cold or they're, I don't know, busy on the phone. And those switches between love and hate and between those extreme ways of being are where we all start. Whether the caretakers are going to do a good job of mitigating that kind of daily crisis is going to shape what we expect for the rest of life. Is the world going to help me when I'm in need?

Or is the world just basically abandoning and sucky? Is this the birth of attachment theory? Yes, for example, attachment theory and all sorts of other ways that we learn to organize our inner world. It's attachment theory. It's the kind of defenses we will use, psychological defenses.

A lot gets organized early in life. So that's kind of the object relations school. Then came all the american schools, like the ego psych schools. Not going to get into that. Blow right through that.

Yeah. But then came a very important american school, which is the interpersonal school, which really focused on the quality of relationships both between caregivers and growing children, but also just generally between people, and how the quality of the relationship shapes the inner world, which is a very american way of thinking in a good way. I'm not being critical here. And that changed psychoanalysis a lot. The Europeans are still kind of dragging behind on that.

And nowadays there's what we call the relational school, which applies all of that into how we conduct therapy. So we changed from the caricature of the analyst as this kind of remote blank screen that like, sits there behind the couch and says nothing, scribbling. And if you say to your classical analyst, well, you hate me, the analyst will say, well, what makes you think. That'S about your father? So nowadays we don't do that.

We involve ourselves more in the sense of, well, what have I done that gives you that feeling right now? Let me bring myself in here as part of what's going on in the room. How am I contributing to what's going on in the room? I'm not like an omniscient know it all analysts communing with God and delivering interpretations. But I'm part of what's going on in the room and I'll take responsibility.

So that's where we are now. Do you only do couples? I see individuals. I love the work with individuals. I like the combination.

Modest Mouse
Yeah. The couples are so fascinating. Yeah. I would like you to tell me what systems thinking is because I know that's a big aspect of this. Right.

Orna Guralnik
Systems thinking is super important when you work with couples and when you work with groups. The idea with systems thinking is that we each bring into the world a set of inclinations and traits and characteristics. But then when you're joining some kind of group or system, could be a group of two, it could be a team, it could be a family. The system needs all sorts of things from its members. Like it needs someone to volunteer leadership capabilities, it needs someone to be the caretaker, it needs someone to be the critic.

We need all these functions. When you join a system, the system calls upon its members to volunteer certain functions. And we're each more and less inclined to volunteer certain things, but it will change depending on what team we join. Like, with some teams you'll find yourself, oh, I'm kind of a leader here. And with some teams you're like, actually, I'm a follower because there's someone else that's doing it differently and better than me now.

So when you work with a couple, you try to understand how they're each drawn into certain roles based on what the couple as a system needs. So it's a very different way of thinking about, let's say, a crisis that a couple goes through. You're trying to understand what's going on with the system, with a unit as a whole that leads them to this crisis. How did they each take this role? When you're raising kids, there are certain things that need to happen, and not everyone can do everything well, I was.

Dan Rather
Going to suggest as an example that people I think experience most strongly is they go out into their adult life and they kind of gravitate toward a system that they wanted and then they return home for the holidays and you can feel yourself click into the role you were ascribed in that situation and you're like, no, no, no, I don't want this role anymore. I feel like that's when people are really aware of it. Yes. And that's why around the holidays days, I cannot go on vacation.

Stay tuned for more armchair experts, if you dare. We are supported by Betterhelp. Listen, I understand that sometimes you want to keep things to yourself. Process your emotions in your own time. But if you keep everything bottled up, it can have some serious consequences.

Modest Mouse
I have therapy on Saturday and I'm really looking forward to it. I had therapy this morning. Yeah, you did. Yeah. And it put me in the greatest mood.

Dan Rather
We had a long, big day and I just felt much better for him. You were not to out you. You were a little grumpy going in. I was. I was.

I was to be sovin. I received some texts. Yeah, I was locked out of my therapy setting, which is this attic. But then you felt much better after. I felt much better, and I even made some apologies.

Talking things out can be so helpful. And if you want a safe space for that conversation, I recommend therapy. Check out betterhelp. If you've been thinking of trying therapy, it's entirely online, convenient and flexible. It's also easy to get started.

Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist. You can even switch therapists at any time for any reason for no additional charge. Get it off your chest with betterhelp. Visit betterhelp.com dax today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.

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These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent diseases. Okay, when did paying someone back become social media? What do you mean? Well, let's just say I'm a weirdo and I want to be messy and see what you're up to, like who you're hanging with.

I can just stalk your pay app and find out what you're doing. I knew you did that. No, I did not do that. I don't do that. I use Apple cash.

It's built into your iPhone, easy and secure. You can send and receive money right in messages and keep it between friends and then use that money any place Apple Pay is accepted. Did you just pay me a dollar on Apple cash? Monica, please keep it in the chat services are provided by Green Dot bank. Member FDic.

Terms apply.

Monty, what do you think is your. Role in my family? Yeah. Well, I'm about to go home. Going home tonight, and I'm already feeling anxious.

Modest Mouse
Already. Where's home? Georgia? They're still there. And I was with them also a couple weeks ago, and I have an incredible therapist as well.

And I got back from there, and I was like, I can't shed this. We talk about it so much, and it's still here. What's happening? If they don't know how to do something or they ask a million, like, there's always a million questions. Like, okay, so when we were at the.

Dan Rather
Can I add? So, you know they both moved here from India. Yes, but my mom grew up being parents. Yes, my parents. But my mom grew up here.

Modest Mouse
She came when she. She was six. And so they came to my hotel, and they called, and they're like, is it this hotel? And I was like, yeah, that's the hotel I sent you. Yes.

They're like, okay, well, it's gonna be 30 minutes. Great. Then they call again. 30 minutes later, we're here. What do about parking?

Just park your car. Yeah, I have. Don't leave it in drive. Do not leave it in drive when you get out, that one's not gonna work. And I've done a lot of work on this, so I was like, don't.

Orna Guralnik
Don't get mad. Yeah, they don't know where to park. It's fine. Just valet. Valet is easy.

Modest Mouse
You can just drive right up and give them the car. Okay. Like, okay, bye. You know, and then they come. Everything's great when we're there, and then they're getting ready to leave, and my dad is like, what about the valet?

I was like, what do you mean? Like, what do you mean? What's the problem? These are easy things, but there's a million questions because of their anxiety. Speaking of role, is it also because you're born here, you're the one that knows, and they get to lean on.

Dan Rather
You well, and it's dangerous, actually, if they expose how out of step they are with what everyone else knows. For me, they're exposing their otherness. That's how I think my subconscious is working. Right. It's always when we're at the dinner, if I perceive that my dad doesn't know how to pronounce something, I feel like I have to be the one to order it because I don't want.

Orna Guralnik
To translate, to mitigate. Yeah. To not draw attention to the fact that were different. You're so wonderfully different, though, by the way. I know, I know, I know.

Modest Mouse
Logically. Yeah. I just wanted to add that. And he doesn't consciously have any of this for him. He's just like, I want to know about the valet.

I've made it this existential thing where. How is he living without me? Essentially here to answer all his. Can I ask you, speaking of systems thinking, when you're not around, he probably knows how to deal with that way. Exactly.

Dan Rather
He's quite successful. Yeah, yeah. They are both totally functioning. And that's what my therapist is always like. They are fine.

Modest Mouse
They're living, they're successful. They're doing just fine. But I've made it. If they don't know how to go deal with the valet, they're gonna die. I made it so extreme in my head.

Cause I have a ton of anxiety, too, and I think their anxiety makes me angry because that's where I got this. You're the reason I have this. Yeah. It's like one silly thing. Again, it's symbolic of everything.

Orna Guralnik
I get it. I get it. It's intense. I totally get it. Parental.

Modest Mouse
These family arrangements, and then my brother's just there, doesn't care. Cause he's not the girl. He's got a great role in the system. He's second eight years younger than me. He's got what?

Dan Rather
He's got a great role in the system. He doesn't have to deal with any of the shit. And he's just hanging. Sometimes I look at him and I think, why aren't you feeling this kind of stress that I'm feeling? But that's my issue.

Orna Guralnik
Yeah. Oh, anyway, I forgot. Oh, yeah. Holidays and systems trying to evaluate. I think what's interesting is we've had a systems expert talking about systems in general.

Dan Rather
They're very interesting. Perfectly designed to produce the outcome you're observing. You have to almost work backwards with systems. Right. It's like, no, no, this is the outcome they produce.

To think that this system will produce a different outcome. We already know what the system produces. Yes. You have done a lot of work on disassociation. Maybe we could dig in a little bit of what that means for people.

I think it's a very common, it's a spectrum. The one I'm not familiar with that seems like a sister state is depersonalization. I don't know what that is. Generally dissociation. Going back to Freud, you really introduced the concept of repression, that if there's something you don't want to know about yourself or something happened to you, you repress it, meaning it happened, you registered it, and then you push it out of mind.

You forget that was in quotes. That was in quotes. Dissociation is a different model of mind. It's when things happen that are either traumatic or to some degree, something you can't tolerate. You either don't process it, you kind of leave it hanging and not fully comprehend what it means, or you shunt it towards a part of the psyche that is not your main part of your personality.

Orna Guralnik
You kind of keep it to the side, to a part that's kind of not me. That not me over there just registered all those bad things that were happening over there. But I'm not going to pay attention to it because the me that needs to keep functioning is moving ahead in the world. That almost happened to someone else. Because to take that on would be too much.

Exactly. So there are many ways to dissociate. Some extreme ways would be multiple personality, what we call dissociative identity disorder. You really shunt parts of the psyche to the side and they develop like a whole world of their own. And this one is so extreme that there's almost a lack of awareness that the other states exist.

Right, right. One of the ways that we think about multiple personality is that one part of the psyche doesn't even know about these other personalities, or there's amnesia for what the other personalities are going through. I treat people with multiple, or did. Yeah. Well, this season we have someone that's approaching that.

Yes, Alexis, he has a dissociative disorder. And to the degree where he doesn't remember the arguments he's having with his partner, yes, Alexis. What happens to him is he's very afraid of his own rage, and there are all sorts of reasons why. And when he gets triggered and gets enraged or triggered into, like, a trauma zone, he really switches and becomes a very different kind of person who can defend himself, who can sort of defend himself more. He's trying.

Dan Rather
He's trying globally, he's actually making much more pain for himself. Right. That one is hard to watch. And going back to depersonalization, when people depersonalize, what happens to them is in a way, they sort of remove themselves from what's happening, they either really numb out the feeling or they kind of leave their body and look at what's happening from the ceiling. Okay.

That's what I realized. You do? Yeah. Having gone through experiences where I go like, okay, we're gonna not pay attention. This is gonna exist.

I can observe it, but I'm gonna be over here distracting myself with my own thoughts and fantasies, and this will end at some point, and then I'll rejoin. Yeah. Yeah. I've had a lot of those experiences. Interesting.

So I really relate to that one. I guess I would have thought that was dissociation. It is. Dissociation, when we call it depersonalization is when you suddenly find yourself feeling like, actually, this doesn't feel real. It feels like a movie.

Yeah, that's. I can't feel the things that are happening to my body, which I know that's depersonalization. When it's mild, it can be a superpower, but when it's not mild, it's extremely uncomfortable and it works. I have done it in the past when it wasn't necessary. Yeah.

Orna Guralnik
Do you want to say something about it? Oh, I was molested. So that was an experience as a kid? Yeah, as a kid, there was a lot of violent stepdads in the mix. Addiction galore.

Dan Rather
An addict. I've done weird shit. I think it was a very useful tool. As I was walking into a crack house in downtown Detroit at four in the morning, going, well, this is dangerous for him. Right.

Orna Guralnik
But I'm just like, floating. Yes, I am. And I will have the thing I want at some point here in the near future, and then I'll rejoin him. And when your actions aren't matching your identity, what you think of yourself as, and your actions are not matching, I think that is common. Right.

Modest Mouse
Where you just separate. Yeah. What is that? Separate? Is that the same?

Orna Guralnik
When your actions don't match what you say, that could be simply hypocrisy. Right. Right. There could just be bad behavior. Plenty of people like that in the government.

But when you're, in a way, splitting yourself, when there's a part that's almost zombie like doing something and your mind is over here, that's dissociation. Specific example would be like, when I was. I was a thief. When I was an addict. Oh, we were at a person's house.

Dan Rather
That person was nice. And then I noticed they had extra drugs, and then I stole from them and I go, we don't do this. Right? And so there's a disconnect while that dirty business happens, I'm trying to artfully hit pause on the experience so I don't have to take on the reality of my behavior. That's a really great way to describe dissociation.

Modest Mouse
Being in a relationship with someone like that. Like in this season, like Kazimar and Alexis. Yes. Feels so heavy. Like, I hate impossible.

He doesn't have memories that the other person has that are painful and aggressive and hurt them, but they don't even know that they did it. It just feels so epic. Yeah, it is epic. I mean, you saw the two of them. What they had going for them is their deep psychological insight into all of this.

Orna Guralnik
And first of all, their profound love for each other. They were in process of working on this stuff. Alexis knew and wanted to get better at it. They were an incredible couple to work with. Yeah, I bet.

Dan Rather
I want to earmark that case because it actually got kind of personal to you and we saw maybe one of your bad word for it, but Achilles. Yes. Because, of course, as a show, you're the hero of our story. So it's interesting to have a pretty insatiable desire to know about you. And there's not a lot of info.

Orna Guralnik
For us, is there? Is and there isn't. I don't know your history. I don't know about your children. I learned you're from Israel or spent time, you know, little nuggets here and there.

Dan Rather
But a lead character normally would have had kind of an introduction where we get the backstory and then we take a journey with them. So it's part of the fun of watching. It is you yourself, as the lead character of a story we watch is a mystery to us, which is very. Go ahead. Yeah, I have to respond to that.

Yeah. First of all, it's interesting, comfortable, sure. Just character logically, but the therapist, in a way, is to some degree the lead character in a therapy, but also not at all. I'm doing the work. I'm the theory.

I was really unspecific in what I was talking about. There's the reality of what's happening that happens to get captured. And there you're right, you're not the hero of that. Yeah. Then there's a documentary series that's another.

Orna Guralnik
I guess I'm less connected to that. As you should be. I'm almost letting you into the perspective of the viewer. That would be hard for you to probably touch, which is, I turn on my television, there's a program presented to me. The couples change.

Dan Rather
One person stays consistent. The blueprint of my brain for story is that's my lead character. That's my hero. Now, that's not the reality of what's happening in the room at all. I'm not suggesting.

Matt. Right. This is great. This is uncomfortable, right? Yeah.

Modest Mouse
What about it is uncomfortable? I can. Well, first of all, I'm not. Look, people go into the profession of being a therapist or an analyst because they're actually quite private. Yeah.

Yeah. I like being private. I like the story being someone else. I don't like the idea of me being the main character. But I also have a theoretical belief.

Orna Guralnik
I understand what you're saying, but you're joining me not in being myself. You're joining me as the viewer. You're coming with me on this journey to understand how to think, how to listen. Not me personally. We're together.

We're thinking about, what is this human thing, this human journey we're on. If I had used the word guide instead of hero, would that be less triggering?

I don't know. It probably feels like you're dishonoring the people. You're really dishonoring what's happening. Yeah. By claiming to be the hero of it.

Yeah. I'm channeling what I've learned to do. And you are. And I would feel that exact same way. Yeah.

Dan Rather
I would think. No, no, no. Don't suggest I'm really the lead of a show. I think you're just saying, though, it's human curiosity that takes over a little bit because we're. We are learning so much about the couples.

Modest Mouse
We know everything about these couples. And you're learning how to think like an analyst. Exactly. And then I think human curiosity starts coming into play where you do start thinking like, what's Orna's deal? But I think that curiosity goes down.

Mostly when we talk about it. I don't know if it's come back to me. We talk about couples therapy all the time. I'm gonna show you multiple first dates that I bring it up. Like, have you watched this?

You should watch this. It's a prerequisite almost. Yeah, but everything we're talking about are the things that are arising within the couples. But then how you handle it is part of the conversation. So I think what your hope is, is happening.

We are taking in how to approach these different conversations. I'm talking about this vague concept of story. I'm acutely aware of story and the power of story and what we do in the format we somehow innately acquire. Just. We're born with right.

Orna Guralnik
Archetypes and story we understand the world through story. I mean, even my dog does. Honestly, I think a mammalian does. I would agree. Like, wait, you did this?

Why? Where are we going? Right, there's an arc here. It's how we're computing this reality we're in. Yeah, see, multiple things are happening at once is really what it is.

Dan Rather
It's like you're having your real life experience. The couples are having their very real experience, and they are immediate story. Where we meet them, we know there's a problem. This is very archetypal. We're gonna slay the dragon together.

Yeah, but unfortunately, you're the dragon slayer. A little bit. Yes. I'm gonna be interested in you. I wanna know about you.

I watch you, and I'm very drawn to you. I appreciate what you do. And then, of course, I want to know everything about you. Yeah. So the Achilles heel with Kazimier and Alexis.

Orna Guralnik
Yeah, you were referring to, like, my savior fantasy. Yes. Which, by the way, I was so glad you labeled it that. Cause I suffer from that as well. If I feel like there's someone to be protected, I'm there.

Dan Rather
So you have a touch of that, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you picked the right. You picked the right profession for it.

Orna Guralnik
Right. But I can't imagine it's universal among psychoanalysts. Yeah, I think it is. You do? I mean, not everyone.

Dan Rather
I could see someone actually having just an innate desire to solve problems. How about that? And in that case, it's. Maybe they don't even have that hero complex part of it. Those probably will go more towards CBT.

Ah, interesting. Manual driven, evidence based. You do. A b happens a little more mechanical. Yeah.

Okay. That makes sense. I hope I'm not offending anyone. No, I don't think so. I said mechanical.

Orna Guralnik
You don't. Maybe I offended somebody. So we're almost to the show, which is you have a practice. You've had it for years. You also teach at NYU.

Mm hmm. Had you been aware of mating in captivity? Yes. Of the book and the podcast. Yeah.

Her podcast has a different name. It might have a different name. Oh, I think you're right. It's a different name. But, yeah.

Esther Perel. We've interviewed her a couple times. I adore her to no end. Awesome. Where should we begin?

Dan Rather
Where should we begin? Where should we begin? Yeah, I heard that. I love it in the same way I love couples therapy, and in a weird way, I'm gonna compare it to aa, which is this person has a very similar problem I have, and I'm hearing them out loud, talk about it, but I'm not getting defensive because it's not aimed at me. I have this little bit of arm's length to recognize and relate and hear solution that may or may not work.

But it was no one pointing a finger at me and saying, so it doesn't trigger any of my defensiveness. Got it. I'm so much more open to hearing it when it's not personal to me. And I think listening to where should we begin? Had that power where it's like, wow, I'm getting to hear her say things to these people that if it were directed at me, I probably would get defensive, but I can't hear it cause I'm not in the room, and it's a huge gift.

Orna Guralnik
That's a good way of thinking of one of the reasons this works. I think that's why the show is we'll get to why it's so comforting. But I'm just curious. I have to imagine there were reservations and is this something that should be consumed by people or should this remain private? Big reservations.

First of all, as you know, generally when you do therapy, there's this really, really intense firewall of confidentiality. I never talk to people about my patients, ever. It's really sacred. And the feeling is that without that frame, it's not going to work. That's like the basic of trust.

And then the idea of doing a documentary where you're completely letting go of that, it's like, what's left? Can you even do therapy? Is it even going to feel like therapy? So that was a big concern. And is it ethical when people are consenting to it?

Do they know what they're consenting to? We had a lot of reservations, a lot of residents. Are they going to be honest? I mean, that's a. Then is it going to work?

Are they going to be honest? Is it going to be fake? There were many reservations. And then, not to mention that people told me, this is absolutely going to ruin your career. Had, like, a good career.

Like, what are you doing? People are going to hate you. And there were many, many fears and reservations, but it turned out that it's definitely different doing it without the frame of confidentiality. But there was so much else going on there that created a different kind of holding and frame for the participants that it worked. Well, I would argue what happens in there often happens in this room, which is people have an awareness that this will ultimately land in millions of people's laps.

Dan Rather
But also they forget that regularly. And I forget that. I'm forgetting that right now. Yeah, totally. It was easy.

Yeah. Yeah. Seems almost impossible, but then when you're experiencing it, you're like, oh, no, it is quite possible. But you originally were just coming on as an advisor. Is that accurate?

Orna Guralnik
Yes. My first degree I did in film, and I was like, oh, the. Sounds like a really interesting project. But I'm worried because they're going to find someone who's going to botch the job, and they're going to portray the therapist as this narcissistic person, and I'm like, oh, my God. Let me see if I can influence how they're going to do it.

Dan Rather
Oh, interesting. So it kind of started as an effort for you to protect the field, the field itself. And then I started talking with Elise and with Josh, the directors, and they're just such amazing people. Their ethics, their creativity, the way they think of documentary. And we talked so much about the parallels between documentaries, documentary filmmaking, and psychoanalysis, and probably also what you do here.

Orna Guralnik
There are many, many parallels. And it just became suddenly a really exciting project, and it required a lot. Of trust from you because I will say I give them an a on not being ever exploitative. They're amazing, which is very, very hard to do. It's not an easy task.

Dan Rather
You could even set up with great intentions. But that doesn't mean it's not. It's so clean. Clean. We've been doing this for years now.

Orna Guralnik
I've witnessed them in certain very key moments when there's, let's say, a certain kind of pressure from the network or test moments where it was like, are they going to go for commercial or are they going to go for ethics? And they always went for ethics. Wow. Always. And if any of us had any concern, ethics was always the top, top, top.

They're amazing people. Because I would guess, and I didn't even know this until I started researching you, but that you do do more than the couples we see. There are other couples that we don't follow them. Right. And I would imagine in that situation, there were some that would be, quote, great for tv.

Dan Rather
Mm hmm. Do people apply? They have a whole recruiting, casting. Got it. Arm.

Orna Guralnik
They interview thousands and thousands of couples. I imagine every single couple across all seasons has been incredible. Incredible. Even though there's issues that span across every single couple. They're all so specifically juicy.

Modest Mouse
Oh, it's so good. And very lovable people. Yes. You love every single one, even at first. Sometimes you don't.

Orna Guralnik
Right. I think that's part of the gift of the show is that you can see how you can even feel repulsed by someone. But if you really take the time to listen, you're gonna love them. All right, so now we're at the show, and I have now a million questions. There's just a lot of things you exhibit that I really have a hard time believing someone's capable of it, so.

Dan Rather
Okay. And we will not name names. We've had to edit stuff out when we talk about this shit. Cause I don't want to get sued. We had to cut it.

Modest Mouse
Cause Dax might get sued if we said something disparaging about. Well, I was specifically labeling somebody with a condition. I think that could be liable because that could impact their. Someone from our show. Yeah.

Dan Rather
Previous season. And that could obviously impact someone's employment and everything else. We can do this without making it specific to anyone. It starts with a question of maybe, do you even believe in certain labels? Because the thing I'm astounded by with you is I will often watch someone in the couple's dynamic, and I will say, oh, this person's clearly a narcissist.

Okay. When someone's a narcissist. Now, there's a known pattern that we expect. I want that generally woman out of that situation. My protection.

You really seem to resist getting stuck on a label and assuming there's a predictable pattern that needs to be interrupted. How on earth do you do that? Do you believe in labels? Do you believe there are people that are x, y, or z? I have, like, a complex response to that.

Orna Guralnik
I think diagnostic labels are sometimes good as quick shortcuts to capture a bunch of information, but they always leave out a huge amount of who the person. And similar to what we were saying earlier about systems, that systems can call out certain qualities in people. You can be in a certain environment that will, let's say, call out for a lot of narcissism. And you can be in a different kind of environment that is very safe or supportive, and somebody that you thought was really a terrible malignant narcissist suddenly becomes, like, completely capable of caring and seeing another person. Okay?

Dan Rather
Right. So there's just really deep belief in. The system, but it's also deep belief in humanity. We're all very complex, and we're capable of a lot. A lot of different ways we can all be.

Orna Guralnik
You're telling me a little bit. You've been a thief. You've been an agatha, you've been this, you've been that, and now you're like a dad. A dad dependable full of goodwill. I can feel it.

Dan Rather
Oh, if I were AI and I was a probabilistic predictor. Yeah, I'm not in any of these situations. But do you at all have to. Fight the inclination to death? I don't have to fight it.

Orna Guralnik
I just know I can diagnose. I've been a diagnostician earlier in life. That's how I got myself through grad school. I did thousands of diagnostic interviews, and I can diagnose a person like that. And sometimes it's useful when you have to, like triage, when you have to make a quick decision.

Okay, does this person need to be hospitalized? I can do that very quickly, and it can be very useful. And sometimes when I work with people, I can say to myself, okay, narcissism or schizoid or something like that, but it's a temporary station on the way to being a more full, whole person to use narcissism. If someone has really intense narcissistic defenses, there are techniques that we have nowadays to help the person through that stuck way of organizing their psyche towards the capacity to actually see another person another way. I might label.

Dan Rather
What I think I observe is like, you have a kind of endless optimism in my life. I do. I have really strong optimism. I'm romantic. I believe in a better world.

Orna Guralnik
Despite evidence of what's happening right now. I believe Israel and Palestine can find a way. I do. Well, you have to. You have to.

Dan Rather
You can work backwards. Yeah. I'm gonna pee my pants. Oh, wonderful. This never happens.

Modest Mouse
This is the second time this has happened in six months. Six and a half years. Okay, goodbye. I'll go to. Do you have to go?

Orna Guralnik
No. Oh, okay. I'll drink some coffee. I'll drink my coffee. No, no, no.

Good. I'm a camel. A mediterranean camel.

Dan Rather
Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

We are supported by ziprecruiter. Oh, ziprecruiter. Get recruiting with ziprecruiter. Listen, there's a saying. Good things come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle.

Which basically means that sometimes it's better to push for what you want. Oh, this makes me think of the Motogpu race last weekend. Because my man Marquez went for a pass on the last lap. Three turns left. Impossible.

Dived up the inside, went for it in one glory. It was spectacular. Which basically means that sometimes it's better to push for what you want. I do a good deal of pushing for what I want. Of course, I'm always trying to stay on the right side of being pushy.

But I go for it. Yeah, you have to. Yeah. No one's gonna knock on your door and give you what you think you deserve. That's right.

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We are supported by Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. Myrtle Beach I have so much nostalgia. Me too. I did a spring break in Myrtle beach. Did you guys used to go there from Georgia?

Modest Mouse
Yeah. It was a very common beach destination. Long, sun drenched days, live music every night, and 60 miles of uninterrupted coastline to enjoy. The beach truly is where your best self comes out. Combine that with the irresistible aroma of fresh seafood, southern classics, and local low country cuisine from over 2000 restaurants, and you've got yourself the perfect vacation.

Dan Rather
You belong at the beach. Myrtle Beach, South Carolina plan your trip at visit myrtlebeach.com. that's visit myrtlebeach.com. we are supported by Wayfair. It's exciting when you get your own place, or even just a new space because you get to decorate it however you want.

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Okay. Thanks for bearing with us. It's our first time ever. Of all three of us, having to go to the bad two meant one song. I'm so sorry.

That was really unique. I never have to pee. Am I making you all nervous? No. Maybe.

Well, there is, of course, when we see how observant you are, it'd be crazy to not assume that when we chat, you're probably gonna see the reality of what we are, which is awesome. Well, yeah, I feel kind of. I'm liking you a lot. Oh, good. Okay.

So I understand the resisting the labels and it not even being useful, but I also think we are intuitively pattern recognition machines agree that is useful. Useful and an Achilles or. No, I don't think it's an Achilles. What I was trying to say is not that diagnostic labels are not useful. They're stations on the way to something better.

Orna Guralnik
They help you organize information. They help you see a pattern. Let's use another thing, not narcissism. If I see that someone is organized around what we call, like a schizoid personality organization. What's that?

The tendency to retreat from too much social stimuli and kind of encapsulate one in a very insular personality organization. Closed off, not too much feeling. That's people's way of defending against too muchness. It's not my place to say it, but that would be the couple this season Rex and Joey made. Yes, I know.

Yes. But then, yeah, I won't spoil. As a clinician, it's helpful to identify those patterns so you're not wasting your efforts treating someone as if they're suffering from bipolarity. It helps. Like if you realize someone is bipolar or has that inclination to be intensely concerned, consumed by really intense shifts in mood.

It's really helpful to know it. It doesn't define everything, but you have. A bit of a playbook. Yes. You minimally know what stuff will set them off.

Modest Mouse
Right. Exactly. If someone is bipolar, you know, to understand if they're showing up and they're looking disheveled for a few weeks, you're like, okay. Or on a ramp up. Yeah.

Dan Rather
Yeah. Interesting. By the way, I imagine that's exactly what would keep your job kind of endlessly interesting is you're adjusting and react or not reacting. We had, like, a better word for react. We don't want to react.

We want to what is it? Respond. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. That's good.

I said a no no word. So, yeah, you want to respond accordingly. And I bet that it keeps it almost endlessly novel. Yeah. So, yeah, two things are happening.

Like, one is there is this pattern, and that's observable. But then there's all this novelty intermixed. And all these diagnostic entities. You can think of them as just ways that a person figured out how to organize themselves, whether it's because they were born with an inclination to go that way or things happen to them. But a person is capable of much more than just that.

Orna Guralnik
And that's why a therapist is there. You have taken me personally. Monica and I have talked about it. Monica as well. It's like you have with your endless optimism and hope.

Dan Rather
There are people that I wrote off in many seasons, and we get to episode eight, and I'm like, God, yeah, they're a fucking suffering person like, all of us. And I'm so glad she was patient. Wouldn't have been. And now I'm here. Thank you for bringing me along with you.

Modest Mouse
Yeah. If one of us is, like, few episodes ahead, and then the other person be like, oh, this person is doing this. Normally it'll be like, just wait. Monica generally is going like, oh, we'll. Just wait till I make decisions yet.

Dan Rather
Seven. It's beautiful. I feel that this is gonna sound very braggy, but I feel that a little bit about this show will have people in, and people have preconceived notions about a lot of these people. And I think what's nice about it is when you really get to hear someone and hear their story, you like them. Agree.

Modest Mouse
It's the same with all these people. They come in, and I'm like, ooh. And then I miss those people on the next season. It's nice. What I can tell you just from my experience sitting here is that you guys are doing the thing that, for example, an analyst does.

Orna Guralnik
I feel like you're offering a lot of negative space in terms of poetry. Like, you're really curious, and you're giving a lot of space to think and talk. It's a particular kind of interview. You're not sitting here with your agenda, but you're curious. Curious and opening a space.

And I feel like, oh, I'm enjoying this. Yeah. By the way, I bet that also parallels being a new therapist and being one that's been doing it for a while. Yes. At the beginning, out of fear, I think I did drive a more linear line through all this.

Dan Rather
And then over time, when I was very confident and comfortable, something arose that was much greater than the thing I was aiming at. And then learning to trust that as its own skill. That's what an analyst does. Should we trade jobs for a couple weeks? What's your job like?

You're seeing it? Yeah, this is my job. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Just a whirlwind of really fun, interesting people cycle through. The one thing I. We're doing it right now, so my wife and I are watching season five four. I feel like I'm already gonna know the answer to this is no. But do you have a belief that everyone can be a couple?

Cause often I go, oh, I know why they're attracted to each other, but this is really a match made in hell, and I think they both be better off finding someone, you know? Do you enter it with a belief that everyone can make it if they do the work, or are there times where you feel like you have to help them exit this peacefully? I generally don't feel like it's my job to make that decision unless there's, like, a really abusive situation where I feel like people get kind of caught in. In the addiction of abuse, and then I feel like my job is to at least try to help them break that. But that's rare.

Orna Guralnik
Most people are not caught in that. And even people who are temporarily caught in that, they want help. They want to get out of it. And then I try. But other than those cycles of s and m abuse and mutual destruction, it's not my job to say who should stay together.

I'm going to help you try to stay together and bring out the best in you, the best version of what you can be. And I'm not here to levy a verdict. Right. People are incredible. They do all sorts of really amazingly surprising things.

Who they choose to be with and why and what couples end up having, like, a long, long, long marriage that you never would have predicted, and others, you thought they're a match made in heaven, and they break up. People are unpredictable. Thank God. Well, we even talk about, like, the success rate for arranged marriages. Like, you have to take that on board, too.

Dan Rather
That's a reality. Right. I can't predict what's going to work or not. I try to help people just make the best of what they want to do. Yeah, it sounds like it's an incredibly low percentage.

And that kind of makes sense because there's some self filtration process that they would end up in front of you in the first place, that you've definitely weeded out some sector that's on some hell bent collision course. They're not looking for help. Right. But on the occasions where it has happened, do you ever break the bond of the system? Do you do it in the room?

Or have you had to sidebar a member of the couple and say, I'm worried about. About you? And does that feel like a betrayal of the. If that has happened? That's a really good question.

Orna Guralnik
It's kind of a technique question. You're asking a technique question, right. Not about the show. Correct. In general, yeah.

Dan Rather
Sorry. We're dipping in and out. I rarely see people separately. I like to see couples together because of my strong leaning on systems thinking. But once in a while, I've had situations where I've asked one person to actually leave the room so I can talk to one person person and talk to them really face to face, head on about how abusive they're being.

Orna Guralnik
And I didn't want to humiliate them in front of their partner. So I've had that. I've had situations where I felt like someone is really not at all acknowledging the degree to which their alcoholism is getting in the way of anything that could be possible in the room. And again, not to humiliate them. I would have their partner leave the room and talk to them directly, but most of the time, I try to keep it in the room.

Dan Rather
Yeah. So you have this incredible optimism and understanding, and then also you have this very sexy set of boundaries and directness. Now, this is where I think there's a little bit of the Israeli in there. Totally. When they're highly disagreeable group in our societal studies, is it easier for you to be direct like that?

Orna Guralnik
Yes, it's totally an israeli thing. Yeah. Yeah. It's very cool. Very cool.

Dan Rather
I'm, like, really impressed the way you wrangle some tigers. That's Israeli. Have you ever been to Israel? No, I haven't. Everyone's like that.

Orna Guralnik
It's all wrangling tigers. Well, we have a lot of sociologists on, and we'll talk about these different indexes cross culturally. And we all have these fun things and a fear of power. You know, Brazil's very high in their fear. Israel has zero fear of power.

Dan Rather
America is close. So I think it's really fascinating, these different cultural differences. Yeah. The patience you have with some of these people. What season was it?

Modest Mouse
It was a jewish couple, Michael and Michal. Yes. Yes. And I ended up loving them by the end. I know.

Dan Rather
Let's be honest. Her. Yes. But at first, this yeah, but at. First, she was a lot.

Yeah, she was coming in hot. Very. And I was, you're a loser, and. You don't blatantly calling him like a loser. Yeah.

So that's a rough first sell. And I was so impressed by you not immediately jumping on her. I was like, get her out of here. Like, I would not be able to handle this. So I do think you, and probably couples therapists in general, have to have an extreme level of patience.

Modest Mouse
And then also, do you think you care a lot? How do I ask this? Do you care a ton about justice? Yes. Not in the world.

But, like, my running thing, that's a justice issue for me. I'm way too easily triggered by, quote, injustices. Not real heavy injustice. Those are fine. No, those are way worse.

My guess is most people have a problem with that pol pot. You get a pass. These fucking people on the sidelines. Well, everyone's just a person, you know? I don't know, but no.

So I would guess that it's actually a little lower because some of the people in your office are committing these, quote, injustices a lot. Like, even that. Even that example of just straight up, like, you're a loser to me. That's horrible. You can't talk to someone like that.

And that's my own trigger. I would assume. You don't have that or you turn it off. It's a good question. I mean, if you saw with Ping and Will.

Orna Guralnik
Did you see Ping and will? Yes. Yep. I confronted her very harshly about the way she was talking to Will. That's true.

I don't know if I can figure out the rule here or how it works for me, it's some kind of gut feeling. With Michal, I could sense that with all the. I'm gonna use a label like histrionic suffering. I could sense her suffering under and that she needed to be calmed down. She was like a fussy baby.

Modest Mouse
Right. And telling her some trust wasn't gonna work. She needed to trust you. Yes. I needed to build trust in the moment.

Dan Rather
That was the salient knockout punch. My wife was watching this and heard this in a way I've never heard. You said, and that's your anxiety. Yes, exactly. That was the moment.

I thought all that good will got you to the point where you could say, and that is your anxiety and that's why you're suffering. Cause it's in you. Yes. Which I had to say many times. She wasn't that open to that.

But eventually, yes, you really brought her there. It was really beautiful to watch. So I have different triggers. I don't necessarily watch it and think something's unjust. I also go to the person who is generically subservient in this, and then I'm more curious, why does that please you?

You have found yourself in this situation. Well, that's systemic thinking. Okay. Right. Yes.

Okay. Yeah. Cause I'm like, no one's a victim. No one woke up. Here's your partner.

You deal with it. So, we're all getting something out of this and trying to figure out why is this soothing to me is interesting. I agree. That was the most interesting piece of. In the first season, there's a couple that we've referenced before.

Modest Mouse
Again, upon first glance, the male seems to be very controlling. Let's say that. But actually, what me and Dax ended up talking about a ton was what was she getting out of the relationship? That was way more interesting, actually. And she was getting a lot.

Yeah. Oh, okay. Oh, man. Let's talk about the throuple. They're not a throuple.

Dan Rather
Oh, so sorry. They're a polycule. A poly what? Polycule cuel polycule. Polycule.

Orna Guralnik
Yeah. A pluple is when all three are. Oh, they're all engaged with each other, intimately involved. They're not. Great distinction.

Dan Rather
And I didn't mean to screw that up. Now, full disclosure. I was in an open relationship for nine years. It was lovely. But our rules was like, I.

I want you to like me. So I'm just gonna say we met cheating on people when I was 21. She was 20. I very much loved her. I said, I think if this is one of the requirements for you and I to make it long term, I'm afraid we're gonna break up over this, and I don't want to.

I would like to have a baby with you. I want to stay together. And we've demonstrated we're bad at this. What about that? We demonstrated we're bad at monogamy.

We're both cheating on. Yes. We're bad at monogamy. Like, let's call this what it is, okay. And then many, many talks.

Our arrangement was basically, I don't really care if something happens and I don't know about it, I have no desire to hear about it. And that was the thing. So that worked pretty darn good for us. There was evolutions over the course of nine years. All that to say, the poly scenario seems so complicated.

Cause you have three relationships happening. You have the two individual relationships that are happening, and then their collective relationship. And they all have other relationships. Yeah. And now I'm gonna expose my old fogy puritanicalism.

I have a hard time watching it going, guys, this is not tenable. I know. I have a pessimism about how tenable that is. Again, it's almost impossible for two humans to cohabitate. That's so hard.

And it's not just it's twice as hard. It's a permutation math equation. It's actually, like, nine times harder. There's some math there. And so has that even been hard for you, or does that challenge your optimism, or.

You seem to be very optimistic, even about the polyandry life. Polyandry, I love that. I fucked that up. The poly life. I love that.

That just means women, I think, who have multiple partners. Polyandry, I'm learning from patients and participants about the world of non monogamous, different kind of social structures. My patients and the participants on the show, in a certain way, they're my teachers. The way I'm thinking about it, what I've come to this far is when you're in this kind of poly arrangement, there are heavy prices to pay, certain kinds of safety, possessiveness that we all have. We like to know what's ours.

Orna Guralnik
This is my toy. Am I the most special? There are all sorts of things that most of us want and need. What I'm also learning is several things. They're gaining what they've said to me many times.

More love, more joy, more sex. They've got more. As an addict. That sounds very appealing. It sounds appealing.

I mean, so I'm joining you. Whatever works for you. As long as people are not getting hurt too much, as long as truth is being preserved in a certain way, you're respecting each other's contracts. I'm learning with you how this goes, and I don't know. I don't have a conclusion.

Dan Rather
Right. You did at one point this season, have sessions with the two unique pairs within. They wanted it. Oh, they did. They wanted it like that.

Would that have been an instinct of yours? My instinct is always, who's my unit? If this is the system, I'll meet all three of you. But they taught me that it's not necessarily the three of them that is the unit. They have this kind of other map.

Yeah. They're dancing around this term, primary partner. Yeah, I know. And there's some hesitation on one person to declare a primary partnership. It was really interesting, but I also.

Orna Guralnik
This is not what you're asking, but I'm just going there. Please. There's a way in which I've come to think about all these new structures of relationship as a way that the younger generation is organizing in response to the big things that are happening now, like climate crisis. Interesting. And ways that the general social structures have collapsed.

They're looking for new ways to be. They're looking for, how can we live as a community that is not about each tiny little unit circling the wagons around our little unit and everyone else is an enemy. Yeah. They're doing something that I find really interesting and politically interesting. Inclusivity.

Inclusivity in a big way. Yeah. That's a very interesting take on it. It's almost like I see the generation before me, I see their approach, I see the outcome. I see the system and the results of the system.

Dan Rather
So maybe I'm rejecting all parts of the system or many parts of the system. This one would be the most fundamental for, minimally, our american history. The family unit. Yeah. Family values.

Orna Guralnik
They're looking at us and they're like, you guys suck. What have you left? Us? Yeah. What are you preaching about?

You're either together and you hate life. No. I'll tell you a new thing. Yeah. You're either together but you hate each other, or you're divorced.

Yes. Congrats. Thanks for zero. If we fuck this up, you're so poor you're gonna be homeless, and then who's gonna support you? Yeah.

Modest Mouse
But it's hard, though, because I love that. I love this idea of inclusivity and do what you want and make your own. It's not do what you want. They don't live, do what you want. Well within the rules that they build.

Orna Guralnik
Right. They're very conscious of ethics and of respect. But it's a new arrangement they've created, and I'm for that. But then you see these sessions and you see this unfold, and it is hard not to watch and think, but we're just humans at the end of the day, who want. Yes.

Modest Mouse
To feel special, to feel. To feel like someone's person and only person. These very primal things are sprouting up within the new arrangement. Right. Although humans, I mean, if we think not only with western eyes, humans have all sorts of social structures.

Orna Guralnik
Bedouins live very differently. Yeah. Historically, 95% of the time we've been here as a species, we were not monogamous. Yeah. We have much, much proof in the archaeological record that generally high status people, multiple partners and wives, and it was communal.

Dan Rather
So, yeah, it is new. But then why does monogamy evolve? Well, there's a ton of people who are anti monogamy that'll tell you. A lot of it is transference of property. Yeah.

Orna Guralnik
It has ties with capitalism. Yes. And the ability to join families, join alliances, the control of. I'm putting this daughter with that king's son, the Catholic Church. Maybe I shouldn't say, why did monogamy evolve?

Modest Mouse
Why did jealousy within these constructs evolve? If we didn't even really. Then we get into another thing that we don't have anymore is a really clearly defined hierarchical order of the group we're in, which would have been 100 members. So all this anxiety we have about where we are on the status ladder would have been assigned and defined. You actually wouldn't have spent much time thinking about it.

Dan Rather
You would have said, oh, I'm gamma. In this situation, there's no aspiring to hire. I'm here. So in a bizarre way, like, things were much more defined. But here in this individual, you could be the highest status person in America in ten years.

You could be the lowest status. We don't know. And then we look for all these symbols to alleviate our anxiety about that hierarchical status. And some of those involve a single partner and the most desired and all these different things. So I definitely think it's cultural.

I don't think it's primitive or biological. Agree. It's complicated. And that's why they're very devoted to study relational dynamics. People who live in these alternative arrangements, they put so much work into how to relate.

Orna Guralnik
It's so much work. Yeah. People think it's just an easy way out. It's hard. No, no.

It's way more work than, like, a couple. Yeah. The one in particular on the show this season, I'm looking at, and I'm like, oh, my God, it's two wives is what it is. It's hard enough to just be with one person, and you're just doubling that. It's a lot of emotional labor.

Dan Rather
Yes. I guess I want to end with the thing that I think is the biggest gift of the show, at least for us and a lot of other couples. I know that. Watch it. It is so comforting to see that it is hard, that it's not a fairytale, that it's a lot of work, it's a lot of communication, it's a lot of thoughtfulness of where you're trying to go.

You won't just get there. The simple fact that every single patient you've had on the show, one person wants more sex and one more wants less. I mean, that's the most universal in a couple. Totally. That's comforting.

Orna Guralnik
Yeah. You just minimally, you go, oh, yeah, different. They're all different. Radically different. And all the same thing.

Dan Rather
That's the comfort of aa, is like, I'm not alone. Knowing you're not alone is so deeply comforting. And I think you really put on display how much you can tackle these things. Your hopefulness is really quite infectious. I think that's my summation of why.

Modest Mouse
Well, as a single person, I'll say I watch it and I think, whoa, maybe not. Maybe it is still hopeful. It's like, maybe this is fine, my situation, because you always want what you don't have. You're walking around feeling like I'm missing this piece. And that's the reality of it being in a couple.

It's work. Yes. Okay, I have one last personal question for you, which is spending your days in your emotional energy, wading through all of this, how has that impacted your own life in partnering my life and partnering meaning in your personal life, does it have an impact then, for you partnering up with somebody? Well, let me first talk about life in general. Okay.

Orna Guralnik
I have a close friend. He's actually in the peer group, Eyal. And we often talk about what does it mean, like to be living day in, day out as an analyst? Yeah. In certain ways, it's like an incredible profession.

I learn something every day. I love the people I work with. I feel so lucky to be doing what I'm doing. I get to care about people. To be trusted is one of the most beautiful feelings.

It's beautiful for people to give me their trust and to show up for that. It's an incredible thing, but it's also really heavy. I carry within me a lot of difficult stories, a lot of pain. You're a cop, in a way, yeah. Who sees it all so much.

Luckily, I see other things than what. Cops see, but an inordinate amount that a human is probably not designed to observe. It's hard. And I guess if I applied that to relationships, it's a mixed thing. I know a lot about human relationships, and I know a lot about myself in human relationships.

So I can be very wise in certain ways. But I think I've developed, and I think a lot of analysts are like that. I've developed a certain kind of remove that is probably not easy for people who are romantically close to me and not easy for friends. There's a certain level of, like, I've seen it all. I know.

Dan Rather
Right. Yeah. I know how this is gonna play out. I'll add, there's the housekeeper who doesn't clean their own house. I was a car prepper for 14 years, and I had the dirtiest car in the world.

I'm not gonna wash my car after I've been washing cars. So I can imagine also a little bit of a fatigue. It's all day. And then you walk in your kitchen like, oh, fuck. And now I gotta do this for me now.

Orna Guralnik
I know. Yeah, there's some of that, but I think the remove is probably the. That's what Ayal and I often talk about. Whoever's really in our lives and close to us have to suffer that. Yeah.

Dan Rather
Well, Ornan, this has been so wonderful for me too. Really? Oh, you guys are awesome. Oh, thank you. Really awesome.

Yeah. Talk about privilege. Like, to fall in love with someone on tv and then actually get to sit with them. It was a joke. We were like, do you think we could ever have orna on the show?

Yes. This is huge for us. Very, very exciting. I love this show so much. Monica loves the show so much.

The new season is out on the 31st. Do you know where it streams now? I'm a little confused by that. It used to be on Showtime, but. They didn't have showtime, which is now Paramount plus.

Oh, okay, great. It's on Paramount plus, not the new. Season, but they're showing other seasons on other platforms, I think on Hulu or tv. It's on some airplanes. I know a lot of people.

That's how I discovered. I know. Shout out to our friend Jedediah Jenkins. We were interviewing him, and he proselytized about how we have to be watching couples therapy. And then, ironically, I was on a flight three days later, I'm scrolling through.

I'm like, oh, there's that thing. Watched two. Got to my hotel room. Okay. Must find out what's gonna happen once you start.

Modest Mouse
There is no stopping. Cannot recommend it enough. It's so comforting whether you're in a relationship or not, but I find it enormously comforting. I hope we get to do this again. Yeah.

Dan Rather
Niko, great job. Niko's here for the listener if you do watch couples therapy. And you know about Niko the dog, Niko joined us and was a very good girl. Yay. Very good.

You know, at first I think. Cause you said, can I bring Niko? Or someone reached out to us, and we were like, of course. And then I thought, stupidly, I'm like, oh, I wonder if Niko is a comfort dog. And then I read enough interviews about you that actually, Niko has tremendous separation.

I was, like, talking about that. You just can't endlessly find your way into these situations. Like, your dog is a patient. My patients make so much fun of me about my dog having separation anxiety. Nico knew that she was being talked about, so now she's showing up.

Modest Mouse
Yeah. Okay. So much fun. Adore you. Everyone watched season four of couples therapy on the 31st.

Dan Rather
Next up is the fact check. I don't even care about facts. I just want to get into your pants.

Modest Mouse
Wow. I kind of put this on for you. I love it. I just took out my super filthy. You didn't wear that on the airplane?

Dan Rather
No, Lincoln was wearing hers, so we got plenty of attention. Yeah. Oh, you were recording here last? Probably. I can always tell with your headset volume.

Modest Mouse
Yeah. Yeah. My long sleeve t shirt that I've been in for 25 hours was so filthy, so I had to quickly put on. Yeah. Stains everywhere.

Dan Rather
That kind of off white color. Not a great choice for an airplane ride. And then I quickly grabbed a shirt and I thought, God, I'm wearing my Taylor swift shirt for you. Wow. I love it.

Modest Mouse
I don't have that one. I don't have it in black. Do you have it in white? Yeah, I do, too. How many?

Oh, my God. Okay, first of all, before you reveal too much, remember, we aren't editing. Yeah. Oh, right, right, right. So.

Dan Rather
And I'm a little loopy. Yeah. So this could be a high risk scenario. Be careful what you say. Be careful what you wish for.

Okay, well, I already got what I wish for. Aw. But, boy, was it eventful. I mean, did you already hear of the drama? No.

Modest Mouse
You texted Rob and I on Friday. Right, on Friday. And you said, hey, you're supposed to be home yesterday. And so you said, hey, due to a crazy chain of events, I won't be home till Tuesday at three, so we need to record a five. Whatever.

And I had an idea. I thought I knew what happened. Okay, hit me with what you. Your theory is. I thought, oh, no.

Dan Rather
Cause I would imagine this could have traveled through the pod by this point. Well, I thought, oh, no. Well. Oh, my God, I already wanna edit. You're so stressed.

Modest Mouse
I'm so stressed. Okay, okay. The next day, you sent connections in. Yeah. So I knew nothing, like, so bad was happening.

Dan Rather
Right. I wasn't in the hospital. Well, though you could play connections in. The hospital, I would be so mad if you were in the hospital and I didn't know. Right.

And I just was playing connections like nothing happened. Yeah, exactly. But you were playing connections, and you said, I'm in France. I'm sending this from France. So blah, blah, blah.

Modest Mouse
And I thought, oh, I know what happened. Okay, what do you think the Portugal concert was for next weekend? Oh, that's a good pick. And France is this weekend, so I've rerouted. Okay.

Dan Rather
It's much worse than that. Oh, my God. And we're not editing, so this is gonna be a tricky story to tell, but for reasons it'll become obvious. Okay. So Thursday morning, Lincoln and I get up.

We're so excited. I cannot express how excited we both were for two whole weeks leading up to this. It's like, the most excited we've been about anything ever. So we are on it. We leave early.

We ride the motorcycle to the airport. We're there so early. I've got the bags, like, fucking bungee strap. Not bungee, but ratchet strapped to the side of the motorcycle. Oh, my God.

Carry on. Only we said so that we could ride the motorcycle. Smart. We get there. We're high fiving.

We're already celebrating. We're supposed to be there 2 hours early. We're there 2 hours and 15 minutes early. Wow. Checking in on a united flight, which is supposed to go from LA to fuck.

Now I can't even remember where we were. We had a layover. Oh, my God. Yes. We were flying to Washington, DC, and then from DC direct to Lisbon.

So we're checking in. I'm feeling so good. We're so happy. And she's scanning Lincoln's passport, and she does it, like, five times in a row. And she looks at me and she goes, there's a problem with your daughter's passport.

It's expired. And my. My whole soul left my body because this isn't something you can solve. Like, you can just buy another. We are only, like, the way this is gonna shake out with everything going perfectly is we're gonna get there Friday afternoon, and then we're gonna have Friday night, and then Saturday is the concert.

Modest Mouse
Okay. Okay. It's 1135 at the. I don't even know what time it is. And Lincoln immediately starts crying, as you'd expect.

Dan Rather
Because this isn't, like, this isn't Disneyland. It's not Disney, and there's nothing to replace it with. I have this immediate thought of, like, oh, what now? What do we do? How do we salvage this?

There's no salvaging it because you. It's Taylor Swift. Yeah. And it's Saturday. And, like, there wasn't a bunch of other flights even in the best case scenario.

Modest Mouse
Yeah. And we don't have a passport. So I immediately call, like, everyone I know that might know someone that has, like, a fixer. Yeah. And also trying to act, like, to Lincoln that we're gonna solve this.

Dan Rather
Oh, you are. And in my mind, we're not gonna solve this. You were. You're like, because how am I gonna get a passport? I know.

In the next few hours, then return and hope there's a flight that night that gets us in it. Was there a Sunday show also? You could, like, maybe try to get tickets. No, there's no Sunday show. Oh, Saturday.

That's it. Saturday or bus. Yes. And, like, so many things are going through my mind. It's like, oh, no, this isn't gonna work.

But I'm gonna act like we're gonna just keep trying. And also, what would be a backup plan? So I'm also, like, filing through. Do we go to Orlando? No.

Again, nothing's gonna. What we're gonna do, and I know we're gonna do is we're going to drive home and have the worst weekend of our life because we were so excited. Oh, my God. I basically get on the phone with a fixer. The fixer says I can pull a bunch of strings.

It's so much money. And I can get you an appointment at 10:00 a.m. on Friday. That's the earliest. And I'm like, that is not going to help.

And he's like, that's all that can be done. And I'm like, goodbye. I go, let's go, Lincoln. I strap the luggage back to the motorcycle. We then race to the federal building.

Modest Mouse
On Wilshire in, like, kind of Santa Monica. In Santa. Yes. Wilshire in the 405. That far from the airport?

Okay. But a mess. It's like traffic city. Like, we get up there, we walk in. Well, we don't walk in.

Dan Rather
You're not allowed to walk in there. Okay. All right. This part of the story is going to get dicey. The fixer part wasn't already tysy.

Modest Mouse
Well, it didn't work. It didn't work. It didn't work. We. Whatever.

This is the real. We get up there. God, I don't want to get anyone in trouble. Do you know? Okay, bottom line, let's just say this.

Dan Rather
A complete miracle happened. I was able to enter there, but you need both parents. You can't get a passport for your kid without both parents because that could be a kid. A parent leave, like, stealing the kid. So I am, like, calling Chris.

You know, she won't answer. I text her, this is kind of emergency. You really need to answer. Luckily, she then facetimed. Okay.

Orna Guralnik
Okay. I go, you need to get to the federal building right now and get her birth certificate from home, which I don't even know if we know where that's at. Right? Ew. God bless Kristen.

Dan Rather
I don't know how. She was in a rehearsal for reefer madness in a theater, and she. In Hollywood. In Hollywood. And she squealed up to the federal building like 24 minutes later with the birth certificate.

Modest Mouse
Oh, my God. Long story short, we walk out of there at 03:00 p.m. with a fucking passport. And now I'm like, how do we get. I find a flight.

Yeah. That leaves at 07:00 p.m. that goes to London, that then goes to Paris, that then goes to Elizabeth. That was the France. Wow.

Dan Rather
So now we're. We have like four plus hours in the airport. We got there at eleven. The flight's at seven. We had this trip to the federal building, but, you know, it's a long day.

Modest Mouse
Yeah. Now a really nice icing cherry on the cake was, we're checking in and I hear Lincoln go, hi, Lauren. I look behind me, lauren, Graham's checking in for a flight. I'm like, oh, my God. I'm like, you're not going to believe where you're going.

Dan Rather
I go, no, you're not going to believe this. We didn't have a password, you know, like, go through the whole story. So we hung out with Lauren and Sam pancake for two of the hours, which was really, really fun. What's Sam pancake? Sam pancakes.

A great actor and one of Lauren's best friends. And he's super funny and wonderful. Oh, and they were going to Scotland together or something. Oh, fun. So whatever.

We kill another 3 hours in the airport and then we fly to London, then we fly to Paris, and we fly to Lisbon. And we get in at basically one in the morning on Friday night. So all told, we only lost 12 hours. Okay. Not bad.

Not terrible. I mean, I really. Up until. Wow. Like, when we landed in Lisbon, I've never felt like I pulled off the impossible more than any other moment in my life.

Modest Mouse
Wow. Oh, the stakes were so high, so. Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad it worked out. Yike. No passport.

You're, like, sad. Yeah, this is done. So then Saturday we were like, we're gonna walk around a bit. But we were fucked from the day before. And also adrenaline dump for those 3 hours before we got the passport or riding the motorcycle.

How was she. How was she during all of this? Well, I'll tell you, she cried intermittently, but she had her shit together, and then it was time to get on the motorcycle. She was all business. And then when we got to the thing and found out you couldn't go inside that building, she started bawling.

Dan Rather
Yeah, kind of the perfect time imaginable. Oh, yeah, sure, sure. So, um. But, um, we were like, you know what? We're not going to be ambitious on Saturday.

We woke up, we went down to the pool, we took a swim. The whole. The whole hotel is swifties. Oh, I missed the best part. When we got in at 1230 or whatever.

When we pulled up to our hotel, we found out she was staying at our house hotel. No, stop. So Lincoln stayed on the balcony of our room, waiting for the police motorcade to bring her back, which she saw. So Lincoln was, like, screaming from the balcony. I'm like, girl, play cool.

You gotta play cool. Because if we pump into her, you can't be, like, fucking hollering. Of course she can. Of course she can. No, if we have any shot of getting, like, invited to lunch with her or something, we gotta be, like, huge, fam.

But I'm not gonna freak you out. No. Taylor loves kids. I saw a video of her, like, you know, head down, trying to walk out of a building. Everyone's screaming at her.

Modest Mouse
And then there was a little kid, and she turned around and went and hugged the little kid. So you gotta use these powers while you can, okay? Okay. I just. I had bigger fantasies.

Dan Rather
I'm like, fewer, longer. We're gonna bump into her and we're gonna have lunch with her or something. Oh, my God. This was my fantasy. Anyways, so everyone at the hotel is swifties.

Modest Mouse
Wow. So it's really fun already. Everyone's like, are you here to see Taylor Swift? So all the little girls are talking, right? And I.

Dan Rather
I'm the only dad there, as you would imagine. It's just like a bunch of moms with their daughters, and I'm at the pool, and then we go to the show, and this is. Now, listen, we taught. We, like, winks. Okay, I'll let you decide.

Modest Mouse
Oh, no. Oh, God. In fact, I'm gonna. I know we're not editing. Yes.

Dan Rather
And we're in a little bit of a time crunch, but I am gonna try to quickly just send you one video while I tell you about the show kicks off. You know better than anyone, you've already been. It's incredible, right? I'm in all pink. I should say a full pink outfit, so that I'm.

Cause you have to go as an album, as you already know. And Lincoln wanted me to go as lover. Yeah. And so I had a whole outfit, so I was head to toe pink. Okay.

Let's see if this video went through, because to my knowledge, this song has never been played at a Taylor Swift show. Okay, hold. Crank the volume.

That's my song that she wrote about me. If I need to remind the listeners. You do. You do need. He's so tall and handsome as hell.

He's so bad. But he does it so well. When she fucking played wildest dreams, I lost my mind. Okay. Cause she doesn't play the song.

That's what I've been told. Well, that's okay. So I'm not gonna look it up. Cause I don't want to destroy my fantasy. Was she playing that as one of the secret songs?

Modest Mouse
Cause, you know, she plays two secret songs at each show. Okay. Oh, it wasn't acoustic. It was not acoustic. She played a bunch of songs off of TTPD.

Dan Rather
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Department. But torture post. She also does two secrets. Rob, can you look up the two secret songs from this Portugal show?

Modest Mouse
I'm curious. Oh, okay. Okay. Cause she also played. So my.

Dan Rather
My three favorite songs are wildest dreams. Lavender. Yeah. Yep. Wait, did she play that when you saw her?

Modest Mouse
Yes. That's not in the set. I don't know how to do Willow. That's in there, too.

Yeah. Lavender Haze. Yes. Okay. So.

Dan Rather
But I got upset up just really quickly. Of course. My joke for two months has been that she's going to play wildest because I tell my children that she wrote this song about me. I know, like, a long standing thing that Taylor Swift has written a song about your dad. Yeah.

And fucking. And by God, she pulled that out. And Lincoln was like, she didn't play that in LA. I'm like, duh. Okay.

Modest Mouse
I think that could be true. I don't really. And I don't want. I don't want to. I mean, I don't think I got.

Dan Rather
This is clearly. I'm joking. I'll be very clear right now. I'm joking. But I did let my imagination wander, of course.

And I was like, what if she's a goddamn human fan of the podcast? I know. Just cause she won't do it doesn't mean she's not a huge fan. And I was talking about going to the show, and I've also talked a million times about the songs about me. I don't really think that happened, but I let myself, for, like, 1% of my brain, fantasize that was what was happening and that she loves winking, too.

Like Wina. Yeah. Wina's been. People love to wink. This is my conclusion.

Modest Mouse
People do love to wink. I have a feeling if she was a fan, it would have got to us. Even if she didn't want to come on the show, she's not a fan. I don't really think that. I mean, maybe one day she could be, though.

Dan Rather
Why couldn't she be? We don't hear about everyone that so often. We have a guest come in, and they all of a sudden, they tell us they love the show, and that blows our mind. It's shocking. But I do think she sort of makes it known.

Modest Mouse
Like, I think one time she wrote a note to Alison Roman. Okay, that's huge. It is huge. But that's not to say she's writing note to every single person she likes. That's true.

Dan Rather
Also, Alison's more of an uncle underdog. She had much more followers than me. Okay. Did you figure it out, Rob? That wasn't one of the surprise songs.

Modest Mouse
Okay. What were they? The tortured poets department? Spoken intro contains elements of now that we don't talk and you're on your own, kid. Okay.

Dan Rather
Yeah. Okay, cool. It delivered for me, though. I got those three songs. Yes.

It's so, so long. It was. I looked. It was, I think, 3 hours and 30 or 3 hours and 40 minutes. Yeah.

But in reality, it only felt like an hour and 45, and we didn't have seats. We were standing the entire time. Oh, were you on the floor? Yeah. Oh, got it.

Modest Mouse
Cool. I exchanged bracelets with people. You did? Yes, of course. I brought bracelets back for the people that worked at the hotel because they couldn't go to the show.

Dan Rather
Show. That's nice. Yeah. I got into the spirit of it. It was really fun.

Modest Mouse
Isn't the energy so special? It is. It totally is. I was. I was crying.

Dan Rather
I didn't cry as much as I thought I might. Cause I was pretty busy dancing. Oh, sure. Although I did. I did cry a little bit while I was dancing.

Modest Mouse
Oh. Cause at one point, we were really dancing, Lincoln and I. It was so fun. Aw, that's so fun. So it was.

Try not to clear your throat. I normally cut those. Oh, okay. It's gonna be hard because I'm a little bit of a mess right now. Okay.

Dan Rather
So I'll just speed through the rest then. Sunday, we. We decided we're going to. We're going to walk Lisbon. All of Lisbon.

Which we damn near did. We walked miles and miles and miles and miles. We took a tuk tuk ride. Oh. Did a tuk tuk tour of the city and then had them drop us at this big castle.

And then I said to Lincoln. Lincoln was all over the map. She was. She's just like me. She's in such a control roll free.

And I said to her, I'm gonna ask you to really roll the dice and trust that I can walk from this castle back to our hotel. And I'm not gonna look at the map or anything. Wow. And it was all twisty, crazy. Oh, you know, Portuguese Lisbon ease streets.

And I walked us straight to the hotel. Wow. And she declared, I'm gonna trust you now for your directions forever. I'm sure that'll change. That's good.

On the next trip. But it was great. It was such a medal of honor. Valor. Hand of honor.

We walked. I was so proud of her because she's eleven, but she walked the entire time she walked. I bet we walked 10 miles, 12 miles. Yeah. Did you guys eat anything yummy McDonald's that night?

That was a big reward. You know what's funny is, of course, you don't want to take your kids to McDonald's because you're in another country and you want to try something fun. But then I remembering when I went to Germany with my mom in high school. All I wanted to do is eat fucking McDonald's. I want to do so bad.

She let me once, but it was a battle. And I'm like, you know, I'm gonna do it. We're gonna eat. I mean, it's the nicest McDonald's I've ever been to in my life. Do they have portuguese items?

Not that I noticed. No. It was pretty standard. McDonald's fair. Okay.

And then Monday, we'd already walked the city. We were like, oh, let's go explore this park. So we explored the park, and then I was like, I really wanna ride a moped around this city. A scooter. And she's like, look it up.

See if there is one. There was one, like, 0.1 mile away. We walk into this place, Eurocar. They've got, like 20 motorcycles you can rent. Ten minutes later, we're driving away.

They got helmets. And then we ripped through Lisbon all day on a motorcycle. Nice. A scooter. Like a 250.

It went pretty fast. Nice. Yeah. So scootered all day yesterday and then had to wake up at 03:00. A.m.

to get in the car at four to be at the airport for our 06:00 a.m. flight to Germany and then three hour layover. All that to say. I got up at three. Sure.

Which three? Yesterday. Which. It was 06:00 p.m. yesterday.

Modest Mouse
Got it. Got it. Yeah. Rob, what is. Did you get us a best boy statue?

Dan Rather
They sent another one. They sent us a second one because they heard our shout out. Oh, that's so cute. Well, of course. I lost you at the motor scooter.

Your eyes started wandering. You were realizing there was new items in the attic. I'm like, what is she looking at?

Started talking about the Cc's. That was probably where you went. You went. Yeah. Went a wandering.

Modest Mouse
Know about that? All right, well, that's so fun. Yes. It was incredible. Really special.

I'm glad you made it there. Unreal. I mean, that's the most adrenaline I've had in some time. That's. Yeah, I think it took a year and a half off my life, which I think is worth it.

Dan Rather
It's a good trial. I think it's worth it. Cause it was with your. But I also don't like you saying that. Cause I have death on the mind.

Modest Mouse
Cause I'm 6ft under. You've continued on. I've continued on. Cause the last fact check, you were like. I remember why I stopped watching it.

Dan Rather
Cause of all the death. Yes, but which made me fearful that you were then gonna bail out. No, I'm. What? Sounded like you burped.

No. Oh, I got scared, did I? I might have. I just had a big chug. A diet.

Modest Mouse
You did have a big, big drink. Yeah, a big slurp. Anywho, so, yeah, I am on season two now, and something really bad happened. What? I found out a spoiler.

Dan Rather
Oh, yeah. And I'm sure it's like the most famous ending of a tv show. Is that what it was? Kind of. So in the flightless bird episode, we play scenes of our favorite episodes.

Modest Mouse
And so David's episode is that finale and he shows it, but I hadn't seen it yet, so it didn't matter. It didn't spoil anything. Okay. I just was like, oh, this does seem sad or whatever, but I didn't. I didn't.

It didn't bother me. But then I was editing that episode and I decided to go back and watch it again. Oh, the scene. Okay. And then viewing.

There's a huge spoiler in that. Yeah. Yeah. I haven't even seen it. I haven't seen the last season.

Dan Rather
I think I watched the first three seasons. Got it. But I do know what happened. I think most people know what happened. Well, I don't want to spoil it for anyone.

Okay. Yeah. Who's just starting it. Yeah. So that was sad.

Oh, last thing I watched, the bookie on the flight home. Sebastian show. Yeah. I love it. Great.

It's fantastic. Nice. Yeah. I can't wait to, um, see the next. Yeah, he's filming the second season right now.

Modest Mouse
I think so. Yeah. Cool. I was delighted. Love that.

What time do you think you're gonna go to bed? What's your plan? Well, we have two tomorrow, two guests tomorrow, so. Yeah, I have a little bit of anxiety that. Mike, I'm so upside down.

Dan Rather
Cause right as we about to, you know, we semi got adjusted there. Like, we woke up at 830, and it felt kind of normal to immediately then wake up at three, which didn't match anything. So now we're waking up at 07:00 p.m. last night. Yeah.

Here in America land. Yeah. So I'm like, fuck. Now we're flipping it completely upside down. So I just.

I'm hopeful that I. My fantasy, my dream is I can go to bed at 08:00 p.m. and sleep till 07:00 a.m. till I take the kids to school. If I can somehow manage to get 11 hours, I feel like I'll be good.

Modest Mouse
That would be good. But I'm a little anxious that my clock has adjusted to that other place. I think you can do it. Okay. I appreciate your optimism.

Okay. There's not very many facts, which is good, because we'll keep it short so you can go to bed. But this is for Orna. What a joy to meet Orna. Oh, my God.

We have been wanting it for so long. We willed it. She's better in real life, which I was nervous. She's so comfortable in her practice, and you get to see such a privileged side of her. Yeah.

Dan Rather
Right. That only her patients would. So I don't. I don't know. But in person, it way over delivered for me.

Modest Mouse
Do you want to know a bts that you might not know? Or maybe I told you. Oh, no. Yeah, tell me.

I almost started crying in the beginning of that episode when we were talking about the sidewalk. The sidewalk. Cause that was also the day. Yeah. You found out some bad news that day.

The day before. Yeah, the day before. Right. Right. Is coming up on another episode.

Listeners will hear more about that on another episode. Right. So there's a lot happening. I was just, like, I was not doing great that day. I was a little.

Like, anything could cause tears. Uh huh. And then. So when you were editing, did you start crying? No.

Cause I'm better now. Yeah. I think I've had the experience of where I was watching myself in parenthood in a scene that I was sad in, and I got sad hearing myself sad, like a mirror neuron to myself. That's interesting. I mean, I.

Okay, so when I was editing it back, of course, everyone's just being so playful. It's fun. It's totally fun and fine. And, of course, no one knows that I'm feeling fragile. Right.

Dan Rather
I had no clue. Right. And obviously she doesn't, and I didn't feel like I should start with that energy. You would have felt a little unprofessional. Yes, exactly.

Modest Mouse
So I. And I. What I really didn't want to do is cry and then make her feel bad that she had, like, contributed to me crying. Yes. I'm trying to imagine if I came onto any kind of show and one of the hosts started crying right at the beginning.

Dan Rather
Cause of me, that'd be hard to recover from. I know. I'd feel really guilty. Well, good thing I didn't do it. Yeah.

Good job. I'm gonna apply. Generally, you should express your feelings, but I'm really glad you didn't. Cause that's too much. If you make the host cry.

Modest Mouse
I mean, I would have pivoted smartly and made it about only you. Right. Like that. I was just. But she would have known.

Dan Rather
She had the same opinion as me, so. And it actually. It wasn't the opinion. I mean, it was the opinion, of course, but it. It was that.

I don't think you could have soft pedaled your way out of that if you started crying right after she said something and you go, no, it's about him. If anyone could have handled it, it would have been her. Well, exactly. Well, true. That is, I did contemplate, like, I mean, she's a therapist.

Recession. Exactly. We've done that to other therapists. Yeah, we have. Wendy.

Modest Mouse
It's gone great. Yeah, I like it. Me too. I kind of want wander to get into that a little bit. I know, but I think that's why.

Because she started it just fun as a guest, not as a therapist, which is correct. Right. Yes. And then. And I think I was expecting a therapist, and then I felt a little combined attack a little bit, and I wasn't in the headspace for that.

Dan Rather
Right, right. It was a big moment. That's BTS memorable. I don't think. If you go back and listen, I don't think you'll hear it.

Modest Mouse
I think I do a good job. Okay, great. And you didn't. To answer the question, you didn't go like, okay, now I'm gonna let this out. As you were editing.

No. You didn't get taken back to that. I didn't, but I did feel like, God, they really are ganging up.

So, anywho, that's that. Okay, so you said, polly Polyandry, and then you. She corrected me. Well, she kind of laughed. And then you said, oh, yeah, polyandry is just when a woman has more than one husband, and.

That's. Right. Right. Yeah. There was only one example of that in anthropology, and I want to say it was in the Andes or the Himalayas.

Dan Rather
It was some really high up, snowy, hype, elevation, place. Or that was the system that made. The most sense because they needed more men to keep them warm. Well, in a pile, I guess. It's.

I can't remember the details of why that environment demanded that arrangement. Sure. But anyways, there was a group had an ethnography done on them that was. Yeah. Well, there's a Pew research about polygamy in the world, and it's mostly confined to a few regions.

Modest Mouse
Only about 2% of the global population lives in polygamous households, and in the vast majority of countries that share is under 0.5%. So it's most often found in sub saharan Africa. Okay. West and central Africa, including.

Dan Rather
The dudes in the Middle east, have a lot of wives. Yep. Yeah, they got many, many wives. Burkina Faso, Mali, Nigeria. In these countries, polygamy is legal, at least to some extent.

Modest Mouse
Muslims in Africa are more likely than christians to live in this type of arrangement. Many of the countries that permit polygamy have muslim majorities, and the practice is rare in many of them. Fewer than 1% of muslim men live with more than one spouse in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Iran, and Egypt. All kinds of people. What about Saudi Arabia?

Polygamy is also legal in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates. Emirates, UAE. No edits, so I get nervous.

But these were not included in the study due to data limitations. Okay.

Says the Jewish Torah and Christian Old Testament refer to several instances of accepted plural marriages, including by Abraham, Jacob, and David. Anywho, okay, one in five. This is interesting. One in five us adults believe that polygamy is morally acceptable. Mm.

Dan Rather
One in five. Mm hmm. Yet only practiced by 0.5. It says this share has almost tripled since the question was first asked in 2003. But it's still among.

Modest Mouse
Still among the least accepted behaviors. Interesting. Very. She mentioned the Bedouin people, and yes, they live in polygamist society with the patriarchal system.

Okay.

Dan Rather
But there were some really specific nomenclatures. She hit me with the actual group on the cause. I think I called him a throuple. You did a. No, no, so did I.

Modest Mouse
That was wrong. And then the word is polycule. You misheard it as polycue. Okay, polycule cule. Oh, well, p o l y c u l e.

Right. What if I thought that s polycule. The poly silent, the polly.

But yeah, that's cause a throuple's real. But that's when everyone's in a relationship, right? In an exclusive relationship to those three people, I think. Yeah, the polycue, they were very cute. They were no edits.

Dan Rather
They were free to mess about as much as they wanted in any direction. They had other partners outside of the polycarbonate. That's right. Yeah. Guys, watch this show.

Modest Mouse
Oh, my God. Oh, my baby. Oh, my gosh. What a season. Seriously?

Okay, Eric Lander, you mentioned. I thought you said Rhode Institute, but I think you said broad institute, which is correct. But I misheard it. But, yeah, but spelled weirdly. B r o a d, I think.

Dan Rather
Okay, maybe that's not too silent. Poly Polly, silent on that. That's how it's spelled. Okay, great.

Modest Mouse
Let's see here. Attachment theory. We talked about attachment theory for a second. That's fine. Yeah.

Well, you tell me what you think your theory, your attachment is. Okay. Oh, are you gonna give me a list? Oh, great. Secure attachment.

A toddler who is securely attached to his or her parent or other familiar caregiver will explore freely while the caregiver is present, typically engages with strangers, and is often visibly upset when the caregiver departs, and is generally happy to see the caregiver return. The extent of exploration and of distress are affected, however, by the child's temperamental makeup and by situational factors as well as by attachment status. A child's attachment is largely influenced by their primary caregiver sensitivity to their needs. Parents who consistently or almost always respond to their child's needs will create securely attached children. Such children are certain that their parents will be responsive to their needs and communications.

Securely attached children are best able to explore when they have the knowledge of a secure base to return to entire times of need. Oh, God, I'm so stressed. Normally I would have cut half of this.

Okay, I think that was pretty much. I feel attached. Was that what you're asking? There's secure attachment. There's anxious ambivalent attachment.

Yeah, I think anxious avoidant and dismay. Missive avoidant. Okay, I think I'm gonna go with secure. There's also disorganized and disoriented. Oh, I think I'm anxious.

Dan Rather
You're anxious. Anxious attachment. Oh, okay. Did your mom work when you were a baby? Yeah.

Okay. My mom, I had the luxury of pros and cons. She didn't work until I was three, so I had her attention all day long, although I was colicky, and she wanted to kill me for the first year.

Well, Karo syrup for nourishment and then an opiate to get me to shut the fuck up. That was adorable. She was in here and just. She remembered the name of it, but she didn't really ever explore what it was. Right.

Remember, we looked it up. Oh, is this an eyedropper full of opium? Oh, no. Oh, my God. Also, it's impressive that your height.

I often think that I probably was destined to be, like, six'five or something. Yeah. As tall as Max. Shut up. Oh, dare you.

Talking about being ganged up on.

Yeah. What are we talking about? Anxious, attached. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

But I wandered around and I talked to adults and stuff. Right. I explored. Yeah. A child with an anxious, ambivalent pattern of attachment will typically explore little in the strange situation and is often wary of strangers, even when the parent is present.

Modest Mouse
When the caregiver departs, the child is often highly distressed, showing behaviors such as crying or screaming. The child is generally ambivalent when the caregiver returns. Huh. That's interesting. Yeah, well, that's what Gabor was.

Dan Rather
He was ambivalent when he was reunited with his mom. This will sound apocryphal, and I can only tell you what I've been told my whole life. So we lived in the country, and I would play in my sandbox most of the day with my tonka trucks. And we had a german ship named Dog. Oh.

Which you've heard this. It was our neighbor's dog. And then we ended up. He slept at our house. He would only go home to eat.

And finally, they brought the dog dish over, and so. And we always called him dog because we didn't know his real name. Oh, I didn't know. Just like, dog was here. Best dog we ever had.

German shepherd. So he would stay out there in the sandbox with me while I played, and my mom would do chores around the house. And she looked out the window and I was not in the sandbox. So she went out in the backyard and I was not in the backyard. Oh, my God.

Modest Mouse
Dog ate you. And the driveway was very long, like, it had to be an 8th of a mile long. It was in the country. And we shared a driveway with a couple other people. Dirt.

Dan Rather
Little dirt driveway. And my mom's, like, looking all through the backyard and she hears honking, tons of honking. Oh, no. And she runs in the front and she follows all this honking. She runs down the driveway and I am in the middle.

Oh. Oddly, it's actually called middle road. We lived off of middle road. I am in the center of middle road. There's a bunch of traffic backed up in both directions.

And dog is with me. I'm playing with a Tonka truck in the road. Yes. And anytime someone tries to get out of their car to help the baby out of the street, dog goes bananas and chases them back to their car and then just goes around in a circle of me. And then my mom comes out, picks me up, how old it takes me to.

Modest Mouse
Oh, no. That's so scary. Fucking losing your kid in the country. We, like, lived in the country. And then finding them in the middle of the road.

Dan Rather
Your worst nightmare. That is my worst nightmare. Yeah. By the way, it must have taken me. I don't know how much she's claiming she looked up.

Modest Mouse
That would have taken you an hour. So long to get from the backyard down to this. And you probably forgot your truck and had to go back and get it and then walk back. Maybe dog. Or maybe you wrote him.

Dan Rather
Like, maybe he took me down there. Aw. What a good dog, though, right? Yeah. Sweet dog.

We love dogs. Ding, ding, ding. What? I almost called her wina Orna. Orna brought her dog.

Oh, my God. That's the most important one. Niko, were we talking about it in the episode at all? Yes. That's.

That's. I mean, other than Mac, that might be my second favorite dog I've ever met. That's my favorite dog. It was a person. I know.

Modest Mouse
And it was really chill and it. Smelled good and smiled a lot. Yeah, I know. And it was so good. She would just smile up a storm if you pet her.

And remember she had an anxious attachment. Yes, she has. Yes, she has separation anxiety. Yeah. There wasn't a firm attachment.

Somehow she was really cute. If I found that dog, I would have to be a dog owner. Yeah. Now. Okay.

Dan Rather
I think anyone would. I mean, that dog was really something. Yeah. You'd have to really hate dogs not to want that dog. Niko, I didn't know you had.

Modest Mouse
How many dogs did you have? Just. Well, I had that dog. And then my dad, when I was in about fifth grade, got married for a year or so, and he bought a house, and I think he was gonna do the whole thing. Sure.

Dan Rather
And he. He bought a Newfoundland. Oh, you like those? Yeah. Because of this dog.

Modest Mouse
Oh. His name was McKeever. And McKeever. McKeever was the cheapest dog from this litter, because, by the way, the stepmom wanted a Newfoundland. For whatever reason, she had some affinity for Newfoundland.

Dan Rather
They had picture books in their house in traverse city of Newfoundlands. Anyways, this one was cheapest. Cause he had his. What they told us was the mom sat on his tail when he was a puppy, so he didn't have a tail. And he was so fluffy.

He looked. I would walk him in my dad's neighborhood, and all the little kids thought we had a bear. They. Everyone in the neighborhood thought we had an actual bear. Oh, he looks so much like a bear.

But, um, yeah, the dog was not well taken care of while we were not there on every other weekend. Yeah. Okay, let's. So I have. I have a real sad spot in my heart for new.

Very much mcKeever. And then that makes me love newfies. They're so sweet, those dogs. Yeah, they're really big, aren't they huge? Oh, yeah.

Modest Mouse
Bear, you said? Yeah. He was 160 pounds. And their job. You know how the St.

Dan Rather
Bernards would find alpiners and bring them brandy? They had a little thing of brandy around their neck, and they would lay on them. Do you know this? That's what St. Bernards are.

They're avalanche dogs. They would rescue people that were stranded while out in the. Who sent that? Who sent. Oh, my God.

Oh, that was kind of really good.

I fell for it.

Just monuments. Newfoundlands are the water version of that. Got it. So they would swim out when there were shipwrecks and men would put their arms around those Newfoundlands, and they would swim them all the way to shore. That could be a good dog for me, since my swimming is free to.

Drown all you want. Wow. Okay, I'll consider. Although the St. Bernard does have booze around its neck.

Modest Mouse
I like that. I'm pretty capable of getting my own booze, though. Well, it would be nice, though, if your dog brought you booze. It would be. Yeah, it would be nice.

Dan Rather
You need booze way more than you need rescuing from drowning. That's a certain. For now. Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

Maybe as you age, you'll switch to a new.

Modest Mouse
Okay, so I. That was that dogs. Niko. Niko. Love Niko.

Really, really cute dog.

Oh, I did look up. There are multiple theories about why humans have become monogamous, and one that is interesting is that men. Okay, I'm gonna read this. Okay, I'm gonna try to read this.

Okay. The brains of infants. Humans were larger than previous generations and required more attention and lactation from their mothers, resulting in females being less readily available to mate again after giving birth. Males in the group are basically sitting around waiting to mate with the female. It would therefore pay for the man to kill the infant so he can mate with the female.

As the fathers would want their offspring to survive, they would nurture and protect them as necessary by pairing up. Yeah. A different man would come in. This is what lions do. When a lion.

Dan Rather
Don't look at the statue. I will. I'm ready to listen. Okay. When a lion overthrows a pride and becomes the new alpha, the first thing he does is kill all the kittens in the litter.

Modest Mouse
Yeah. So that the mom. All the chicks will go into estras. Okay. And so there it is believed that that happened when invaders came into, you know, human villages and whatnot.

Dan Rather
That they would also want to get everyone pregnant as quick as possible. But a dad would never kill his own offspring to get the mother to go back into Esther. The whole purpose. I know. They're still killing offspring.

Yeah. So I think they're referring to, like, competing males would be incentivized to do that. Maybe. I don't really believe it anyway. Yeah.

Modest Mouse
There's, like, a health theory. Okay. Reducing, like, diseases spreading. Where did all these come from? Any of these from CNN Health.

Dan Rather
CNN Health. Okay. Well, in Anthro, we learned it was just an economic system. Right. And so as economies changed, people went to single family dwellings.

There's all these many property ownership, passing of property.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure it's a combo of so many things. Yeah. Because I think health must play some.

Modest Mouse
Or maybe not health, but something deeper has to be playing some sort of part in this, because I feel like. Like we would just not care that much. I mean, I guess a lot of people don't care that much. Well, but even in ones that were polygamist, there was a very rigid system in place like that. A male got access to many other females, but the lower ranking males didn't have families.

Yeah. So it wasn't like Willy nilly. It was very controlled, even though it seemingly is like, just go hook up with people. Even when it was polygamy, I don't think it was, just, go hook up with people. Yeah, well, I just looked up.

Is infidelity common in Europe?

Denmark, close to 46% of people admit to sleeping with someone else outside of the marriage. Okay. Infidelity is relatively common in Europe. Oh. Infidelity rates by country 2024 World Population Review.

There are several countries in which cheating is relatively common. Thailand is an outlier, but it is also at the top of the list. More than half of the people in Thailand who are married admit to committing infidelity at least once during the course of their marriage of the week.

It sounded like you said, they're weak. But I might have. Oh, God. Okay, then. Infidelity is relatively common in Europe.

In some situations, there might be relationships where people are allowed to sleep with other people outside of the marriage. In Denmark, close to 46%. When I said Germany and Italy are not far behind, where 45% of people who are married in both of these countries admit to committing infidelity. Belgium, Norway, and France also have infidelity rates that are 40% or higher. Interesting.

Dan Rather
Is the US of a on that list? The US? I feel like you'd have a hard time getting people to admit to that. Exactly. Which is why I think.

I think half of people. I think that's still roughly what happens here. Yeah. I just don't know if I would believe that people would admit to it here. Yeah.

Modest Mouse
This is kind of a tricky chart.

Let's see. Us. World Health and Report. Is that what you said it was? It's world populationreview.com.

Dan Rather
Okay. Worldpopulationreview.com. Greenland has the lowest reported infidelity rate. Well, there's nobody there to cheat with. What says spouses are mostly likely to cheat with a friend?

Okay.

Modest Mouse
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Anywho. Oh, there was one. Sorry.

Yeah, guys. Shit. There's been a lot. That's kind of it. All right, well, Orna wasn't dropping tons of stats on us.

No, of course not. She was dropping her knowledge. Unique dog. God, she's so cool. She's so cool.

Dan Rather
God, is she cool. She looked really cool. I know. She didn't give a fuck about approval. No, seemingly not, but also seemed fun.

Modest Mouse
I know. I really got a hunch, like, oh, yeah, she'd be a fun person to have dinner with. Do you want to know something since you've been gone? Yeah. I've had a chicken burrito from Arowan.

Every day. Oh, by the way, your skin looks great. Oh, my gosh. My skin has pretty much fully. You're completely molted.

I've molted? Yeah. Do you feel baby like? Yeah, parts feel baby like. Remember, it was only some parts of the face.

Dan Rather
We're gonna be baby like. I kind of wish we had just done the whole face. Yeah. You went through the torture of it all. Yeah.

Why not do the whole thing? I agree, but I might now that I like it. Yeah. I'm nervous I'm gonna get a little addicted. Oh.

How often can you do it? I'm not so sure. What will the dermis tolerate? I don't know, but I kind of want to find out. Oh, wow.

Modest Mouse
Yeah. Okay, so you gotta really get our guest schedule ironed out before you come in. He know. I know. Tell me about it, but maybe I won't care.

Like, it'll become such an obsession. But you were telling me about what your diet was. You ate a bunch of what? Oh, Arowan chicken burritos. Oh, really?

Dan Rather
What are those, 30, $40? They're $20. Oh, my God. I know. I was not.

Modest Mouse
I would have probably caught that. Oh, yeah. Sorry, I forgot to not ask you anything like that. Okay. You know what else we did?

We were all hanging out on this weekend, friends. And I told Eric that, and he said, how much are those smoothies again? Like, some of the smoothies there are insanely expensive. Yeah. I don't want to misrepresent the place, but I do think I had a.

Dan Rather
That was telling me he was going there and getting these. $36 if you get the add ons going. Well, exactly. So that's what we were testing just based on postmates. Like, maybe if you go there, you could do even more damage.

Modest Mouse
But we picked the most expensive smoothie, which was like 26.50, I think. Wow. Base. And then we did a whole bunch of add ons, and I think we got it to $45. Yeah.

Dan Rather
Yeah. Okay, great. Then my claim wasn't. I didn't order it to be. No.

Yeah. Clear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just wanted to see. But the chicken burrito's so good.

Is it? Yes. And it has a cilantro, rice, and the perfect amount of cheese. And it is a soft spinach tortilla. Oh, it's so good.

You want one right now? I can tell you. I already had one today. Oh, you already did? Yeah.

Have you had two in one day yet? No. Okay, well, today might be that day. Maybe. All right.

I love you. Welcome back. Thank you. Great to see you. What's funny is it only feels like five days since you saw me, but it feels like three and a half weeks.

You know, when you have those trips. Yeah. It feels like I haven't seen you in a long time. Okay, right, but the. The passport fiasco.

Modest Mouse
Oh, yeah. That was like two weeks ago for us. Yes, totally. Yeah. So long ago.

You crammed in so much. All right, all right. Love you, love.

Orna Guralnik (Couples Therapy)

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1: Introduction to Couples Therapy

2: Common Challenges in Therapy

3: The Role of External Influences

4: Strategies for Effective Therapy

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