Kevin Costner

Dax Shepherd
Welcome, welcome. Welcome to armchair expert. I'm Dax shepherd. I'm joined by Monica Padman. Good morning.

Good morning. You have copped to this once or twice. I feel like this one caught me off guard. I got a little starstruck. Yes.

Could you feel it? I could. You could? Yeah. I thought it was nice.

Yeah, I really was. I was a bit starstruck. Yeah. It's. Kevin Costner delivers.

Well, first of all, let's just say, my goodness. Fuck. I mean, the pictures will be up. You could go look, but I don't even know. It couldn't possibly do it justice.

He looks so fucking good. Yeah, he looks so, so good. Oh, my God. In real life, he was so stylish. Yes.

And so tan. Yes. Very suave. God, he had a nice tan. I kind of just was, like, charmed right out of the gates.

And he had a real rascally smile every now and then. He'd let rip. He did. He was fun. He had a great energy.

Monica Padman
I do feel like I get why you were a bit off kilter. Because he's old school. He's like an old movie star. Not old. I mean, he's like a legend.

Yes, he's a legend. And I think I was reminded of that when I researched him before he got here. I kept looking at credit and going like, oh, my God, of course. It's like when you're looking at Spielberg and you're like, oh, right. And he did that.

Arnold
And he did that. Right. So, yeah, Costner. I was just like, oh, God, the bodyguard. Yeah, we get into that, and it's so good.

Dax Shepherd
Yeah. Dances with Wolves, the Untouchables, Waterworld, Yellowstone. And he has a new film. He has two new films that are coming out called an american saga, and it's broken into two. The first one comes out on June 28, and part two comes out on August 16 in the movie theater.

It's so huge and grand in scope. It's a western. And this is going to be four parts. Yes. This might be the most ambitious movie project I've ever heard about.

Monica Padman
Really, really cool. Boy, did he charm the slacks off of us. Please enjoy. Kevin Costner. We are supported by Squarespace.

Dax Shepherd
Guys, we have a squarespace website that. It's just gorgeous. That wabi wab, you built that yourself using all the templates? Yeah, I sure did. Yeah.

Easy peasy. So easy. Well, the best part about Squarespace is it's an all in one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. You can get discovered fast with integrated optimized SEO tools and you can choose from professionally curated layouts and styling options with squarespace blueprint. Plus, you can kickstart or update written content on any website.

Product description or email. With Squarespace AI, head to squarespace.com for a free trial and save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain with the code Dax. We are supported by Squarespace. Guys, we have a Squarespace website that. It's just gorgeous.

That wabi wab, you built that yourself using all the templates? Yeah, I sure did. Yeah. Easy peasy. So easy.

Well, the best part about Squarespace is it's an all in one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. You can get discovered fast with integrated, optimized SEO tools, and you can choose from professionally curated layouts and styling options with squarespace blueprint. Plus, you can kickstart or update written content on any website. Product description or email. With squarespace AI, head to squarespace.com for a free trial and save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain with the code Dax.

Arnold
He's an object.

Dax Shepherd
He's an object.

Monica Padman
He's an object.

Arnold
Is that chair too big for you, Monica? No, your feet don't crack. You should see me in this one. Like you have a timeout. Who's this?

Monica Padman
Hi. Hi. Okay, great. Come have a seat. We're just talking tour buses.

Arnold
I'll hide in the corner somewhere. Oh, no, you're right there, boss. Yeah, you're fine. Are you the cleaner? When he kills us?

Dax Shepherd
Are you going to. I'm the fixer. You're the fixer. There we go. What's your name?

Arnold
Arnold. Arnold. Arnold. We've been together a long time. Hi, Monica.

Monica Padman
Nice to meet you. How long? 23 years. Wow. 23 years.

That's so cool. That's pretty nice. Have you ever done a podcast? I did one this morning. You did?

Dax Shepherd
Whose did you do? Indiewire. Indiewire. And I've done Adam about five years. Corolla.

Arnold
Corolla. Yeah. Okay. We're pals. He's just a funny guy.

Monica Padman
Stern? Yeah. Have you done? Stern? Yeah.

Arnold
Is that a podcast? It's not, but it's long form. I've never done Howard. Oh, you haven't? I don't think I have.

Monica Padman
Next. You can do it in an hour. Is it next?

Arnold
Jesus, Dax. Home. Stop. They've got you booked until midnight. I'm gonna work today.

I just got back from France, and I'm gonna do this. And I gotta do something for Memorial Day parade. I'm not really sure what that's about then I'm gonna see Jimmy Kimmel. Yeah. And then I'm flying back to Utah to direct three.

Dax Shepherd
You start next week? No, I shot three days, stopped everything, went to France, screened the movie. Cause it was important for us, as kind of essentially an independent movie, to throw as much light as I could on what we've been doing. Cause people have been wondering about it. So it was out there for the film festival.

Arnold
It was something I had imagined a couple of years ago, earlier, that I. I was gonna need to do that. And thank God they took the movie and gave us a really nice placement on the weekend. And I was able to bring out seven of my actresses. Cause the movie is very heavy on women.

And. Wow, talk about girls who know how to walk the red carpet. Jesus. When they had their moment, they really had the walk. Snap their hair about.

Dax Shepherd
Oh, yeah, yeah. One leg goes out. It's an art. Well, when I walk the carpet with my wife, she's got about seven different poses. And I stand there with the same confused look on my face and I'm like, am I supposed to adjust with her?

Yeah. Well, occasionally I'll throw it over my shoulder. The way that she can, like, wreck your neck. You can really injure yourself. This was a can.

Arnold
This was that can walking out. You got a seven minute standing ovation. Oh, wow. And you got rightly so emotional. I did.

It was about eleven minutes, actually, because the first four, they were clapping when it was dark. And finally I thought you should maybe turn the lights on, find out what's happened. Right, right. Have they arrested somebody? Maybe somebody fell.

They got up and they kept clapping. And what happened when the lights came up? It kept going. I did get emotional, actually. My eyes filled.

There's 2500 people there in that theater. Oh, my God. Really? That many? And Bertolucci said so accurately, it's like the last place where 2500 people can sit in the dark and dream the same dream.

I don't know exactly what's happening. And I can feel the balcony. And all of a sudden I went back in time, they kept clapping, but suddenly the sound went away from me and I went back to. This started in 1988 for me and couldn't make it in 2003 and decided that in 2003, since nobody liked it, I'd make four more. So you don't want one.

It's like from a therapy point of view. Kevin, did you hear? They didn't like the first one. You heard that though, right? And you did what?

You wrote four more. You know that big question, why we. Hope to uncover that today. Right. And so what happened was I started going backwards, and I got emotional, and my children were there.

I had five of my children. Two of my boys were in tuxes, and my three little girls were all dressed up, and they were watching, too. And they got a little startled by it. My son had not ever seen me be that emotional. You know what's ironic, right?

Dax Shepherd
Is you and I would pray that when that camera's on us in the scene, that we could get to that spot. But then there it happens in real life, and there's this hesitation. Right? There was a hesitation. I was holding back because here's the camera, but I can see this 100 foot screen behind him, and that's me.

Arnold
And I looked and I could see my eyes were full. And I thought, good. Fuck. That's not crying good. But I walked backwards, and finally I thought I should bring this to a stop.

So I didn't know there was going to be remarks. I didn't know that that was expected. And so I was a little bit caught there, too. I guess the screen behind you is the big part. That's basically like doing your scene in front of video village.

Dax Shepherd
Like watching yourself, right? Yeah. Did you walk back in time, not just from the story of the movie that then came to fruition so many years later, but did you have that kind of awareness of, like, wow, this has been a pretty long walk I've taken. And to land here, minimally, you gotta recognize, well, this is a unique experience. Not a lot of people get to have this moment.

Arnold
Yeah. That's a whole town focused on film. And at that moment, it was focused on us. It was lots of ups and downs and just trying to stay true to it, trying to not let it be manipulated and wondering why I'm such a knothead. But there it is.

There's no apologies for it. I don't know if you've gotten to see the movie. I did. I watched it two nights ago. Yeah, it's beautiful.

Dax Shepherd
It's also at an interesting time in history, and we'll get into that, where we have a lot more layers of accepted behavior. These people are out in the middle of fucking nowhere, having not gone to school, having not lived anywhere where they would have observed elders passing anything. These are like Renegade, lone wolf, crazy people in search of something. The thing I was trying to do with this movie is that historically, movies, the towns are already there. It's like, what?

Arnold
What, do they pop up after a rain and they're mushrooms. Yeah, you're right. They're building like one church. Generally when we arrive, these towns were. Built and burnt down.

It's a 200 year experiment. I think we're getting a little deep into it. Monica, maybe you didn't see it. She's the voice of the audience at all. Watch the movies so that I know when we're getting too esoteric or not.

Monica Padman
And I am a bit confused. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, in general, this is a really, really expansive story. And it's following three or four different sets of people in three or four different areas of the west during the four year span of the civil war. Actually, what happens is it's before it a little bit.

Arnold
It's a ten year thing, and we start a couple years before the civil war starts. We don't really deal with a civil war. But what we're saying is when you historically know the way, you realize that when the civil war was actually going on, the people that were coming west were way more exposed. Why? Because there was no army.

The army was busy fighting the civil war. Yes. The military had a presence out there. They were actually scared too. This one guy says, look, you can count the indigenous, you can count us, and you don't have to wonder at the logic.

Dax Shepherd
Yeah, we'll be killed in a second if they decide. That's right, that line in there, they could rid us in one day's war. 100 and whatever of that. So it's a saga, and then it passes that time. And of course, in about the next 20 years, the west shut down after the civil war.

Arnold
So it's a migration west of people who don't know each other, all headed to a spot that looks like maybe they can have a life because the salesman put pretty pictures on it, said they can catch trout. And none of those things, of course, are there. But if you watch television now on the 800 channel, people are selling shit all the time. Well, think about even California and its history, sending huge train loads of oranges east to go like, look what we have in the middle of winter, begging people to come out here now. We're like, please stay away.

Yeah, I actually didn't know that, but that makes a lot of showing off. All these people where I'm from, Detroit are in the middle of winter. They haven't had a fresh vegetable or fruit in three months, and this train car of fresh oranges arrives. Do you know Mike Binder? Funny enough, I have him on my list to bring up.

Dax Shepherd
Yeah, Binder and I are friends. And it occurred to me during my research that you guys are buddies Michigan. Is really big for him. Yeah. I enjoyed watching you play a retired tiger in upside Mike.

Arnold
That was a brilliant screenplay. So you are going to have to get out of that big chair someday and go see the movie like a big national horse. I will. I'm excited. One thing you'll notice right away, that in an american west, women are dominant in my movie.

I think you'd probably agree with that. Surprisingly so. So there's a few different groups we're following, and of course their stories are slowly being funneled into this place, horizon. We have some things set in Montana, and then we have Luke Wilson driving a convoy or caravan through Kansas and that trail. And then we have where Horizon is, which I'm guessing is Utah.

No, it's down in Arizona. Arizona, okay. Off the San Pedro river. So it's the first hundred pages of a novel, if you will. You're setting your story and you're setting these people, and some people are getting there on purpose, and some will get there by coincidence.

Dax Shepherd
There's a bunch of themes, I think, being explored, but it's really fascinating that the characters in this movie, the civil War's not even happening for them. They are so far removed. It makes me think about our access to everything currently. Like, you could be anywhere in the world, and you can be actively watching a couple different wars happening right now. But there was this ability to exist in whatever little pocket of reality you were in back then.

You couldn't follow something. You might get a newspaper at some. Point, but by the way, there was never a safe day for them. Every day was work. Every day was keeping your family fed, keeping them clean, if you could.

Arnold
It was nothing but work. Women for that 200, 300 year span were working themselves to death. I mean, one of the fascinating things I learned about the old west, which is really telling of how scarce everything was, is when they built structures and then they moved on. They burnt down the houses to reclaim the nails. Nails were so rare that they had to burn down the houses to gather up the nails so they could build again.

No, it's true. I mean, a little girl passes a biscuit to the boy and he takes it. He's gonna put it in, needs that cloth. She'll know that it's gone. Nothing's disposable.

That's why the sharing of food, probably nothing more important in life. If you want to have a bond with somebody, share food with them. Yeah. Yes. And what they started to understand was maybe if they're going to exist on this land, maybe they need with their technology to, like, leave a deer that they shot out to.

The indigenous say, thank you. This is rent. A little act of good faith. Right? And we were kind of willing to do that when our numbers were, you know, please don't hurt us.

But the minute there's a tipping point, we just treated the indigenous like they were an inconvenience in their own country. Yes. Okay, we're gonna dive into the movie a bunch, but I do wanna go back to can in the moment there, because I'm gonna guess that through the course of this really illustrious and incredible career, it's fun to research someone like you, to be reminded, for me, american flyers, that is a seminal movie for me that my brother and I watched over and over and over again on. On tv. It just played and played and played and played.

Dax Shepherd
I remember how much time I spent with that specific movie, and then going through all of them. So many incredible projects throughout that ride and the journey, I'm imagining you're human, like all of us, and you have different periods of feeling worthy of that and feeling perhaps imposter syndrome y or not worthy. Before I proceed, those feelings, have you had those in the past? I had the feeling that I was never going to make it. And then when you do, it's kind of like, well, this feels a little too good to be true.

You're kind of waiting for them to knock at the door and go, like, big mix up. So sorry. Once I got through the door kind of went pretty fast. You sure did. It wasn't Tom sliding across the floor at 18.

Arnold
It was for me, 27, 28. And so I was a stage manager at Raleigh, working for $3.25, and Richard Gere and Mel Gibson and Nicholas Cage and Timothy Hutton, Sean Penn. At a certain moment, maybe I wasn't going to get a part so far out of reach. So at one point, I even said, they can only do two movies a year. I need to see everything that somebody's turning down.

I drove my agent crazy. I want to know if they've walked past something great or they just can't get to it because they've committed to something down the line. I said, let's chase that idea. And so my agent thought, what are you thinking about, buddy? Actors all want to have agents, but you got to realize that you get 90% of the money.

Maybe you're supposed to do 90% of the work. Yeah, true, true, true. I had an idea about myself. You know, when you do look at the breadcrumbs of your life when you walk it back. You measure your life different, certainly, than anyone else does.

And so somebody who looks at the tips of these icebergs of whatever you want to say, when do you think it happened? I have a different view when it happened for me. For me, when I got the big chill driving down the freeway, knowing I got the park, I knew my life had changed. Well, guess what? I didn't even end up in the movie.

But the point was, well, your hand did, I think. But I knew. Stop with that. Stop with the research. Unforgettable hand.

If you don't have a real grasp of your career, then you're kind of wandering. When I got that part, I knew I was with the right people. I was with the right director. I would absorb everything. Yes, I had a moment.

I wasn't in the movie, but I realized that wasn't going to be my last movie in my own mind. Well, you made an impact on Larry Kasdan. Clearly, he made a big difference in my life. Both watching him behave, watching the rehearsal process. We made Silverado.

It was a very flashy part. The part had a lot of jigs. It was set up to win. And so what you have to do is embrace it, walk right into it, which was a little hard for me because I was prepared to play the laconic Scott Glenn role. Peyton, who Kevin Kline played, because I knew this era, it was already my thing.

And so I thought I knew how to do the minimalist here. I got this guy that was raging and climbing like a monkey and picking fights, and I thought I wasn't prepared to play him at first. Yeah. Were you nervous? I was because I knew how to do this other thing.

This guy was as big as the horizon. So that's how I ended up trying to play him, which was play to the horizon. It's not like anybody else is in the room, right? Right. It's like you're not value for value on shit.

Dax Shepherd
It's your world. Everyone else is passing through it. That's wrong. But that moment of the big chill, I wasn't wrong. Silverado happened.

Arnold
But sometimes being on the yellow brick road is as much about getting where you're going. Listen, I can relate to that greatly, which is the biggest hurdle, is being invited into the fucking room. Cause you're on the outside of the room for so long that. That moment where you go, oh, my God, I got a call time. I'm on my way to a movie set, is very, very special.

Dax Shepherd
You go, well, now I'm up to bat. I just had never been up to bat. And I know I can't hit if I don't get called up to bat. That's correct. So I agree with you.

It's really maybe the most profound. We're in a real spot as actors because even musicians can stand on the corner with a guitar and their case open. They can make a little dough. They can play as an actor. If you're fumbling your lines on some street corner, you're going to jail.

Arnold
Yeah, they're moving your way. So the ability to practice your craft. Granted, you have the theater, but you realize it's limited. And so what you're talking about is, how am I going to step through that door? You need permission to do the thing you want to do.

Yeah. Unlike writing, you can sit down. They can't stop you. So when it did start to happen, when the american flyers turned into no way out, I found that movie I had done, Silverado, Orion. Thought it was a pretty catchy part, asked me to come in, showed me all their movies.

I said no. And that was a big word that has followed me. And you had that from the beginning? I developed it where I thought, I need my career to be about something. At some point, I just went like, you know what?

I'm trying so hard, I need to be able to look back. And so I did have that. And so they had their movies. Sure. They all thought they were good.

I didn't see a fit for me. And they said the right question right after that. Well, is there anything you want to do? All this back work I had been doing about who's turning down what, what's going on? Constantly reading on my own, I'd found this movie called finished with engines.

It's a naval term for shutting down a ship. You ever see those sayings on the Titanic, full ahead one third? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you look at it on the brass, you can look at it, I think, on sand pebbles, if you pull it all the way back, it says, finish with engines. It's the shutting down.

Those are big ships. You got to be really sure about shutting it down because you can't get it started right away. And I said, I read the script, I'd do this. And it was at Warner Brothers. It was in turnaround.

So they said, okay, we'll do that with you. And it was no way out. They changed the title. Oh, wow. But I knew how it read.

It matched up with the sensibility that I had. So after that, then the untouchables happened after about five or six movies and the field of dreams came. And the bull Durham. But then I wanted to direct. I knew where I was.

I knew what I wanted to do. And I was a terrible student. It was only when film really took hold of me that I invested and understood what it was like to be a good student because I saw good students in college. I wasn't one. You went to UC Fullerton.

Dax Shepherd
What was your degree in? Marketing. And you discover acting in college. Right. In college last year.

And so prior to the dream of doing that, did you have a fantasy of going into marketing? I didn't. I was a rat chasing the cheese in a maze. I was very conservative. Growing.

Arnold
You go to school, you go to a college, you get a job and you raise a family. They were dust bowl. Dust bowl people. Yes. Grew up in Compton.

Monica Padman
Here? Yes. Oh, wow. First seven years and then moved to a little Santa Paula. And then up between Santa Paula and Ohio, a little one street.

Arnold
And there was a two room schoolhouse up to the 6th grade. So your room with a lot of kids. And I thought to myself, it was a little harder and confident. This is all right. Bunch of kids.

I can deal with a 6th grader. Come on. But you moved to town. I moved a ton too, as a kid. And I think it either makes you or breaks you because, man, reintroducing yourself.

Constantly, it almost broke me. I found I lost confidence in 11th, 12th. I was also an undersized kid. I'm looking at my boys right now. One just turned 17, but he's six'two.

Going on six'three. And I was five'two. My middle son is 15, he's six. I didn't have that thing. So when you took the moving, you took being undersized, you took girls wanting to look at your license.

And after the fourth one and said, five, two, wow, you're cute. And I thought, I've never shown that license to anybody. Yeah, and you suck at school. Yeah. And I was not good at school.

I could play sports and that gave me one leg up. At least you had a built in set of friends. A little bit. And you're going from pretty radically different cultures. Compton to Visalia.

Dax Shepherd
Last two years of high school is Orange county. I'm really proud of you for digging in. Honestly, you're starting to say some things I forgot. You're worthy of it. Well, thank you.

Arnold
And the first girl that kind of liked me, that I dated, I didn't have dates in high school. I married her. Wow. Okay, this may be too revealing, but I'll go first. So elementary school.

Dax Shepherd
I love girls. I'm in love with girls. From the day I'm born, none of them like me. I get to junior high. My older brother gives me a really cool punk rock haircut.

I get a skateboard. All of a sudden, girls like me. And there has never, ever, ever been a better drug than that for me. Well, I think it does make the world go around. I'm sorry.

Yeah, I know it is. And I wanted this. It wasn't that I didn't like her. It was just like, if I walk across there, ask her to dance, she is gonna say no. I wasn't a self fulfilling prophecy.

Arnold
It just. I wasn't going to be the guy. Kind of an ironic twist with the career you had and how big and handsome you turned out to be. It wasn't gonna happen. And I was lost.

I got this little hunting dog up in Visalia, and all I did was I just got that dog. I would go and not come home. Did you live in fantasy world a lot? I daydreamed, which was a little bit hard on my dad. I was always a worker.

I worked since I was little. But he confused my daydreaming with me not knowing how to work. And I really knew how to work. Dad finally came to me. He said, your mom and I have been talking.

We were wondering, did we help you in college? I said, no. He said, you paid for it. I said, I did. I worked on commercial fishing boats.

I really liked people, but I wasn't afraid to go someplace myself. Well, but can I say? You had already experienced exclusion. It was terrible. And then you lived through it.

Dax Shepherd
And I think that's a weird gift. You can stomach it. You can go be odd man out for the rest of your life if you need to be, you've done it. I can exist where I'm at. It's like the movies.

Arnold
There's a pattern in my life. Bit of a plotter. It took me a while in high school. I didn't understand women. I didn't understand our own industry.

It took me a while to get everything I have. It comes late to me. I am a late bloomer in all of it. Like your growth spurt? Yeah.

Quite honestly, even as I exist in the industry today, people under the illusion that I can do whatever I want, the truth is, I do whatever I want, but I can't do whatever I want in a sense that some of these movies they have not wanted to do have not been popular in their mind. That dances, the field of dreams and the bull durhams were movies that just had to take them around, push them uphill in some instances. Use your own money. Even horizon is this long journey. No one was going to make this, but I wanted to go fishing.

What's the harm in that? Who am I hurting? And I'm not Ahab, I know what obsession is. Obsession is willingness to take other people down to fulfill your dream. But for me, what I maybe sacrifice is the wealth that I built up.

I might lose it. Ooh. It doesn't scare you? It never has. Wow.

I have a sense of responsibility because I have children. There's a core that I'm not going to let go. But this pile, that has meant a lot to me. I'm not going to let that inform my decisions. Well, you're probably rightly going, okay, on the deathbed, do I want to stare at the pile as I go, or do I want to go, oh, yeah.

Dax Shepherd
And I got that across the finish line. Even the idea of I got that across the finish line. I realized at the end of the day, we're still going to have this big question. What was our life about? What's on my grave, Mark?

Arnold
I hope it says, and I made movies, too. Yeah, right? That's great. So maybe that's a trick. I mean, we don't know what this is about.

We know that it has to do with love, because that is a thing you can go to bed with and wake up with. And I have the love of my children. I have a love of a profession that I finally understand. I don't have to be considered the number one person, but I am in that room. I decide what I'm gonna do.

It just isn't easy, and it doesn't unfold for me. I have to go. Okay. Okay. This is what it is.

Nobody wants to go. I'm gonna go. Yeah. When you get to at 32, when you have this crazy string, the untouchables, all these things, and now you are officially a leading man. You are going to make decisions.

Dax Shepherd
You're driving the boat. You know, you're globally famous at that point. Is that an easy transition for you or is that hard? Did that take a minute? That's an easy transition because I wasn't concerned with it.

Arnold
Just once I realized what it was, just the same way I realized that when I was on the freeway at the big chill, I said, this is happening for me. This is fucking happening. Yeah, yeah. Here we go, baby. And everybody said, you're not in the movie.

You're not like John Lovitz was talking to me or something like that. Christ, it didn't happen for you. I love this guy. Where is this guy? Oh, I just saw him at the Hollywood bully.

Dax Shepherd
Came out during billboard. No way. We need this guy. But anyway, it's not how I define things. So when that happened, I didn't have that moment with my head out doing cocaine on the hood of a car.

Arnold
Like down about what I. I should have followed you around. There's a lot of people that say I haven't lived my life. I would have driven us straight into a ditch. I promise.

Give it a sec. Kev, with me. We can be on the rope. Your nose looks dry. Let's get something in it.

Here's the thing. I had that actually happen. Believe it or not, when I was a stage manager, Raleigh, it was called producer studio because the roof, sleek. Only thing we got there were commercials and low budget movies that didn't have enough money and then didn't even pay the studio. I mean, it's like we were constantly chasing.

Eventually another group came in Raleigh studios and they started to pour money back into the studio. But we were still just doing commercials. And ultimately it was the wave of MTV. Oh, wow. And all of those things started being played there.

I saw all the action stuff, but still no movies. And I was dying to see a movie. And finally we got to a point where there was studio space and Evita was coming over. Faye Dunaway played Evita, the television for Margen Chomsky. I was thinking, I'm going to see some acting.

And I didn't really tell a lot of people I was an actor because who wants to work next to a pining actor? Yeah, yeah, it's rough. They came over and started rewiring our stages. And the electricians came over like rock stars. They were prepping it strong like you, the whole thing.

And they were there for three weeks just stringing cable. And then sets were being built and they took all seven stages. But I was a non union lot. So whenever they needed something, I got it from. Whether it was grip, whether electrician, it was anything.

They're always saying thank for me. And at one point they would always take me back into the grip room and say, here. And they put out a little line of code. Sure, sure. Thank you for all the shit you're doing for us.

So I. What? So I do that, right? You don't want to be rude? No.

And nothing. And I do it a second time and I do it a third time. And finally I said to them, I said, hey, look how much is that? And he says, that's about dollar 20 right there. And I said, can I say something to you?

I said, yeah, fuck, of course, man. What? And I said, look, I'm trying to buy my first house. And I said, if you think what I'm doing is cool, I could use $20. Yeah, I'll take the 20.

I could take a 20. And I was out of the club immediately. Sure, sure. So I said, you know, I'm an actor. They go, well, we'll come swim in your pool someday.

And I remember these guys very clearly. And I was suddenly out of the club. I had done them many. They weren't favors in my mind. It was just how I worked.

And so I saw myself excluded because I didn't want to do this. I was kind of lucky for me that I didn't like coke. Yeah. Oh, truly, there was nothing there for me. But because I said, I'm trying to build from my wife, who's wondering what in the world I'm doing.

Dax Shepherd
You're not pursuing marketing. You're working $3.25 an hour, and you're happy. Yeah, I said I was happy, but I don't know how we got on that jag, but I think there's people out there going, I'm kind of glad he did coke. Yeah. It makes you much more human.

And they know I've done kilos of it. So at 32, though, when you have all this opportunity, was there somebody's career at that point? Like, you have a very apocryphal, fun story on the way home from your honeymoon. At 22 years old, you meet Richard Burton on an airplane. That's wild.

At 32, when the sky's kind of the limit and you have opportunity, was there someone's career at that moment that you thought, oh, I wouldn't mind having that career? No. I had this idea that I knew inherently, no matter how fast I was going, there was going to be a moment where somebody else is going to be the number one actor or something. You did know that. I knew that easily.

Arnold
When I actually knew the way I was going to run my career, that was probably going to happen because I was frustrating people by not making the second bodyguard, not making the second anything. And I want to just say, I'm not an elitist. I would have done it had I thought that the next script that was written was really good. And they go, well, no, let's just make it. I said, no, let's see the script first.

Let me see if it is as good as the first one, and then I'll make it. But no one wants to do that. They just want to greenlight that second one as fast as you can go. So what I felt was, I just want to be in that room where I do what I want. I can see who's having a nice run.

That's okay by me. It's just, can I do what I want to do? Cause I feel like I have a relationship with the audience, and I was gonna bring them a brand of movie that was maybe not in the same genre. It was moving around. That was another little problem for me, that no one knew what to expect on the next one.

It wasn't in a vein that they could see if you could just make this movie again or one like it again. We know how to market that, in a way. You're a boxer who, you've got a great right cross, and they're like, keep throwing that right. And Hollywood inherently knows that they want something new, but they're afraid that it's not gonna make the money that something old does. And we've weaned an audience off that.

We've created the conventional wisdom that they gotta be this long, they gotta be this, they gotta be that.

Dax Shepherd
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Dances with wolves. That's your first time directing? I wanted to direct the movie in front of it. I wanted to direct revenge. I had actually helped write a 106 page script, so not everything I was gonna do had the length that people think that I desire.

Arnold
When I met Ray Stark, I don't know if you remember who Ray Stark was. He's a legendary tough guy. Done a lot of movies with John Houston. Writer or director? No, a producer and a mean guy.

And John Huston was his partner. Helped him on some of these movies. And he didn't listen to Ray very much. I had to get past John Huston. John Huston.

Dax Shepherd
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he thought I was too young to direct. Oh, really? Yeah. He says, I think the boy's too young.

Arnold
That beautiful voice of his. And I thought, well, fuck you, John. I'm gonna grow up and not hire your son, Danny Houston. Cause you were mean to me. There's worse guys that get told no by.

I've gotten to work twice with Dan. It was just so great. But John just felt that I was a little young, so I acted in that. And then the very next movie I've directed, dancers will wolves. Okay, now I want to ask if it's a blessing or a curse to have the first thing you direct.

Dax Shepherd
Get nominated for twelve Academy Awards. You win two, it makes a fucking fortune in the same way that pulp fiction comes out. And it's a little bit like, I'm a little scared for this guy. How do we follow this up? Did you feel any of that?

Or did you just enjoy the fruits of it. I just enjoyed it. But what a fucking. Even in your wildest expectations. Cause you've been square with me.

Arnold
You know, we're talking about drugs and stuff. What it was is the validation of the movie encouraged me to do better, not rest. Yeah, but tall order. I guess it has been. But I still think the play is the thing.

Yeah, I was looking for a big movie and I'm trying to do revenge. And I get into this giant fight with them because they keep postponing. Keep postponing. And I read this little movie and I finally said to Ray, I said, look, if you don't finally do this movie, you know, it kind of made it, so I can't directly direct it. Now you're fucking around now with a month into it.

And there's movies coming by me and I want to do them. And I read this little movie. And if you don't get this shit together in the next week, I said, I'm going to do this movie. The week came and went. And if he didn't believe that I was what I said, I said, guess what?

Hey, Ray, I'm doing this movie. And it was a field of dreams, the movie in the corn. I thought it was special. That's just what I felt. And we went to war over it.

And everybody kind of moved away from me, even agents, because Ray was kind of a volcanic, difficult personality that would try to ruin careers. And so now I'm like the mongoose and this Cobra bullshit. Ricky Tikki town. I get on the phone with him. He goes, you know, I'm gonna sue you.

And I said, that's the first words out of your mouth, isn't it? He said, what? And I said, I heard you were a smart guy. And then I just stayed silent. And he was like, what?

I said, I heard you're a smart guy. What does that mean? I says, that means you can figure this out. You come to me four days after you finish this fucking movie in the corn. Yeah, that's how it went down.

Dax Shepherd
I feel like this business we're in is plagued by gatekeepers and intermediaries. And things keep escalating. Cause no one's actually talking directly to one another. And every time you do pick up the phone and call the person directly, shit gets done in like five minutes. It can and sometimes it can't.

Arnold
But let's find out if it can. I think that's what you're saying. So dances. I knew that that was a moment. And I just had to enjoy the moments that would come after that, and I would make sure that the movie that I would pick sustained me.

You can't always tell what a massive movie is going to be, but I can tell what a good movie is. Yeah. Did you have playback back then? Not really, no. I had it on dances, though.

I needed it. So I've directed a couple things. I started in as well. And playback's essential if you're in it. It's totally essential.

Dax Shepherd
Yeah. And I was just curious if back then it was readily available. I use playback with my actors. I bring them all in that tint. I don't treat that place sacredly.

Arnold
I let even the crew look. Cause I love everything about a movie. You wanna watch a great take? Watch this. I'll even put music on my little stair to play music against it.

But this is where I work. But I don't make it like this is sacred. Well, there's a lot of things you can't explain when you're directing. You have to bring the actor over and go, this is why it looks. Weird when you're see what you did?

It's a tool. Somebody says, well, it slows things down. Well, I think it speeds things up. How old were you then, dances? I think I was 34 when I made it and then edited it.

I became 35. At the moment you probably felt old, but now looking back, do you not recognize, like, I was pretty fucking young to take on that movie. There was a lot about it that was funny. I just knew that the movie was what I wanted to make. You were on a mission in the.

Sense that, let's just follow this script. I'm pretty anal about script. I'm not somebody that goes out there, wings it. I will leave what I call a window of opportunity, which is I go out there, stick with the script. It's the Bible, it's going to work.

I know it works. But if somehow there's some opportunity that I sense, I will step through that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Don't you find? Now I've only directed things I've written and I would never want to direct something I hadn't written.

Dax Shepherd
Because I think when you believe in something from the beginning, you understand it from the beginning. I think that ends up being infectious to people around you. Cause ultimately, as the director, you're really getting everyone to buy into this same fantasy that you have created. And I think you have to infect people with it. I can see where you're coming from.

Arnold
I come from the place that I could direct every movie that I said yes to. But where the problems exist is when a director comes on who is directing it and starts to go, well, I never really liked that scene. Or I didn't like the way I shot that scene. Well, isn't that the actual origin of dances? Which was there was a director, and he wanted to cut some scenes.

I went to three directors, pretty good directors. And each one of them had a difficulty with some of the issues. Whether subtitles should be there, whether maybe we should just start with them out at the fort. Screw the civil war thing. Studio is going to cut out that 1st 15 minutes anyway.

Let's start with him there. Don't meet the guy at the fort. The crazy guy who pisses his pants. Let's just get you out to the fort. Well, I thought, okay, I hear that.

But no, it's the subtitles. I. But no. And all it did was I just looked at myself and I said, I need to direct this. I have one movie to ask you about.

Dax Shepherd
And this is self indulgent, but I happen to be kind of obsessed with her. Cause I've watched two documentaries about her, Whitney Houston. And I'm curious on that movie, if that was a special experience. Was she nervous? She's really smart.

Arnold
That was a movie I probably should have directed. I just thought somebody could do a better job. But he was uncomfortable with her. She was my choice. So I was the actor.

I produced it. I picked her. So you probably have the same fascination I have with her. Listen, the first girl I thought was pretty was Diana Ross. I saw her on Ed Sullivan show.

And I thought, fuck, yes, let's go. That's pretty. And I'm like ten years old. I know what pretty is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I loved her. So it's not like this giant mystery. So I knew that she should be the one. So in producing it, I produced Whitney in the movie. Meaning I put her there.

I didn't let the director. Well, I'm directing. We've all decided places. I said, no, she's in the movie. You can direct this movie.

It's a Lawrence Kasdan script. Just try to stick with it. There was a flaw in that script. And even Larry talked about it. I talked about it.

And about three weeks before the movie started, remember, it's 17 years old. It's the first script that he'd ever sold. So it'd been around for 17 years. Really? Yes.

Dax Shepherd
Wait, wait, wait, wait. Bodyguard's the first script that Lawrence came. He hasn't. So. Really?

Arnold
Right. And Sidney Pollock was going to make it. Somehow it fell through the cracks. He goes on to write raiders of the Lost Ark, Empire strikes back, body heat, Silverado. But that was the first one.

So I kind of asked him about it. He goes, yeah, I did this movie. And the way he talks is always so distinct. And I said, well, I want to read it. And so I read it, and I thought, I'm going to make this Larry.

I wanted him to direct it, but I think his mind was somewhere else. And I didn't think I should. I just thought, somebody can do it better. But I really knew who I wanted. There was a moment where she trusted me.

And as I looked at her and I could see the director was afraid of her, and he was shooting her late in the day when he just didn't want to get to her, would rather shoot her walking than talking. He was nervous. He couldn't get out of her. I started to guide her, and I wasn't trying to usurp my director, but I had made a promise to her not to fucking him. Yeah, for sure.

Monica Padman
Into the movie. And as a scene partner, you want to lift? And then editorially, we had a real problem. That movie was not tested. Testing how?

Arnold
I was testing the sixties. No way. And I had promised Whitney that she'd be good in it. So now we're sitting in Warner Bros. And have you ever been in that round room at Warner Brothers where they talk to you, yo, yo, yo?

So I'm in that room with Terry Simmel and Bob Daley, and the director's there, and it goes, well, I guess this is as good as the movie's gonna get. Says out of 69. I thought, no. And everybody was like, what? And I said, we need to put about 15 minutes back in this movie, Kevin.

I'm like, hardly believe this is a problem. This movie's getting shorter and you want to make it longer? And I said, yeah, I thought, I'd like to put 15 minutes back in this movie. I said, because I'm going to take out about. I can remember this to this day.

I'm going to take out 28 minutes. Well, how are you going to do that? I said, about 15 seconds at a time, I imagine, because we're not going to lose any scenes. We're going to put back in scenes. He says, well, I don't think you'll be able to do that.

I said, watch me. So I went home, and I remember I sat in my bed for two days on the weekend looking at the. Numbers, just writing down time code. Yeah, cut this, cut that. Start here.

Cut this, cut that and came out to 28 minutes. No way. No way. That's freaky. It did.

And we barely got out of Dodge. And that movie went up, tested a lot higher. I'd made a promise to Clive Davis that Whitney would be good. I made a promise to her. Clive was managing her.

Yes. And we got it. Larry actually went in with me, but I worked this thing, and I think we barely got out of date, but we had this movie that worked. And that was my promise to her. She's always gonna love me in the song.

I was always gonna keep my promise to her. A, did you sense there was a ton of pain there? And b, did it break your heart? No, but I eulogized her and I didn't want to. When she passed away, there was a steady drumbeat to hear.

You know, she was such a big personality that everybody was going on the air talking. That was not my first instinct. Even Arnold was. After about five or six days, he goes, Kevin, you need to something. You're seeing people capitalize on it.

That's right. Which is gross. And yet you are close enough that it would seem crazy. You didn't. So you're in a very weird state.

Arnold tried to explain that to me, and then the BEt award said, well, would you come and give her an award at least, and talk? And I said to Arnold, well, how long is that? And he goes, well, it'll be two minutes. I said, I can't do it now. There was this, like, where is he?

But about two days later, I get this call and it was Dionne Warwick, and she was putting together the memorial. And she calls me and she said, kevin, I'm putting this thing. I said, yes. The exact thing I didn't want to do. I just said, yes.

I could feel the weight on her now. It shifted to me, what am I saying about this little girl? And went back to that church in Newark, and it was filled, it was electric. There was two bands playing. The church was alive.

It was like, boom. And it was a bunch of people working on this speech. I talked to a friend of mine, army, and we'd both written down notes about it to compile everything I wanted to do and finally crafted this speech. Now I'm in there and I'm thinking, I really stuck out. Sure, sure.

And I'm sitting in this row and somebody said, cNN's here. I go, cnn's here. And they go, yeah, they wouldn't mind if your remarks were kept shorter because they're going to have commercials. And I said, they can get over that. They can play the commercial while I'm talking.

I don't care. But I've come here when I didn't want. You know, I didn't want to do two minutes, and I crafted this speech I was writing on the plane. I was writing for a week, and I look back, and I see Oprah and Diane Sawyer, and I swear to God, I must have been, like, 13 years old. I said, would you do my speech for me?

I didn't feel like I was the right guy to go up there, but I did. And there were some people that really wanted to speak, and they're kind of staring daggers at me. What was I going to say? And I started, and about 17 minutes later, I was done. Wow.

Dax Shepherd
And you said everything that I felt. I needed to say. I watched those docs, and I think, a, the talent is so once in a generation, but the fucking work ethic, when she was juggling the full blown addiction and still doing the shows, she was a force of nature. I can't help but be enamored by the whole thing. It was a moment where I knew when Whitney came, I said, look, you can't have an entourage, but I'm gonna take care of you.

Arnold
If there's a person important to you turned out to be Robin Crawford, I said, let's have Robin. But I said, I don't have one. You're not gonna have one. And that's how we started. And I knew that it would never be the same for her when she left me, and I purposely wasn't a pen pal to her, but there was a couple moments where somebody said to me, would you write her, please?

I did. You must have made her feel really safe. That's what the entourage is all about. I mean, there's a lot of fear. And I don't know what it was, but we had a moment, and I realized that the world had a higher idea of who we were, so I basically embraced it.

I was her imaginary bodyguard. Yeah. It's so sweet. It works on all these levels, and I think there was probably real things that were happening that really helped in what we ended up seeing. You were her bodyguard.

Dax Shepherd
I mean, it's not even psychoactly. Okay, quickly, listen. I'm gonna say this as someone who's directed something that over performed, and I've directed something that's underperformed, and it's a very unique experience to go from mega hit behind your wildest dreams to do the post, man. And it didn't do as well financially as I imagine you hoped, and then to do open range again and then be right back in the swing of things where it overperforms and it's critically acclaimed. When you're evaluating that phase, I can already tell from every story you've told me you're very big on intuition, and it doesn't seem like you're shaken easily with your conviction.

But are you having a little head scratchery moment? Like, well, hold on. I had the same conviction about this thing, and it didn't connect. What the fuck happened? What did I miss?

Arnold
I didn't miss anything. It just didn't catch on. But the hostility that kind of came behind it, people that came out to throw an extra dirt clod. Yeah, well, unfortunately, we tell stories, and you're the victim of stories, which is you're at the very top of the mountain, and there's only one chapter left in the story. It's not that they build a higher mountain next to you, and you climb it.

Oh, you're right. It's unavoidable. So I saw that. But the good thing. The good thing about it, for me is if someone watches the movie again, they're gonna see what I wanted to do in the postman.

Dax Shepherd
Yeah, you executed what you hoped to do. Exactly. Which is the thing you have to prioritize the most. But also, sometimes you go like, well, I'm confused. Why?

Sometimes my conviction is widely appealing, and sometimes it's narrowly. I don't know why. Cause I'm just following this gut. That was the same on that thing. That's right.

And that's a little confusing. Okay, last question before we get to horizon, which is, this sounds like a silly question now, in 2021, because all the great stuff is happening on tv, but was it a difficult decision in 2012 to do Hatfields and McCoy? No, but it was a trap. I remember my agent called me, said, hey, look, these people have this thing, Hatfield McCoys. They know that you like this era, and they were just wondering if their script was any good.

Arnold
That was the pitch. Oh, that's a good trick. They just want your opinion. Yes. Cause they value it so much.

So two things happen. Have a little bit of meaning to our things, because we'll give your show a little poetry, a little kind of, like, circle back moment. I said, it is good. It reminds me of something I have. I have this western.

I think it's really good. And this writing, I think, matches that in a certain way. Would you direct it? You know, like, that was the next question, like, on my hands. And I was like, no.

Monica Padman
Yeah, yeah. What? I said, I fucking read it. They've got this hand on me trying to. I said, I can't.

Arnold
I mean, it was like going fast. And I said, well, this person could probably direct it. And they go, would you act in it? And I said, what just happened? Slow down.

And I said, look, I will, but when you ask me that, I'm going to tell you something. I'm not shy about saying if I don't like something, if I think something's perfect. And I've had about ten or twelve scripts where we never changed the line. That's maybe nine more than most people. Totally.

So never did change Silverado, never did change untouchables, never did change fandango or no way out, didn't change bull Durham, didn't change tin cup. They were these scripts that had been written and rewritten, and I stick to them. This is written really well. I believe in that. So I go, I'm not trying to manipulate something, but I think that the character needs about five more scenes.

They go, you know, we'll have somebody write it. I said, you could spend too much writing this. And all of a sudden I don't like anything. You don't have that time. I said, do you want me to sit down with your writer?

And I'll do it for you? So they had trapped me pretty good. So anyway, yeah, now I know how to get you in a movie, by the way. So four days later, I wrote the scenes and I said, do you like them? And they said, yes.

What else are they going to say? Yeah, it's hard to trust that. So now I'm with Nancy Dubuque. She says, do you want to do this? And I said, I can do this, but do you like every scene in these scripts?

And she said, yes. I said, so do I, but this isn't two nights. And she said, well, that's our model. And I said, yeah, but this is four nights, meaning four night shoots, four nights of viewing. Uh oh.

It had so much content. I got you. I did my own trapping. Yeah. What don't you like?

Do you like my scenes? Yeah. I said, well, it's easily four nights of thing. Well, we can't do that. I said, I can't either.

So that word no really helped me there. We ultimately, like, I said to Ray, I heard you're smart. Let's figure this out. Finally, the compromise is, I said, why don't we show this over three nights or four nights with no commercials, and then you can cut it up however you want after that. But at least the audience will see this thing in its fullness.

And that's ultimately what happened. I always respect Nancy because she followed through. Because she could have bailed on me and said, you know, I tried really hard, but the network's finally crushed. And then they edit this movie and it never turns out to be what it turns out to be. And again, this is one of these bolts of lightning.

Dax Shepherd
It sets records, but it's the movie. I know what a good movie is. I'm not sure what a hit's gonna be. I could tell it was good. But one funny thing that happened, and it's not so funny, but you would think that I'd have enough experience.

Arnold
So this movie, they actually had an art director going. They were so far down the line, it would all happen fast. And then they told me it was in Romania. Oh, fuck. Wow.

Monica Padman
Talk about a track. Talk about a last track. And I had agreed to do a movie that I thought was gonna be in Kentucky or Caroline. And of course it was. How could you miss that one?

Arnold
How could you miss that fastball? And I go, I just did. So I really major fuck up. For me to be gone for three months and Romania, like, is not the first question you ask when you're doing a movie. And I go, well, maybe Michael Caine does, but not me.

Dax Shepherd
But you just dealt with it. I dealt with it. It was such an enormous hit. It went beyond and it went beyond. Not because of me.

Arnold
All I did was protect it. It went beyond because it was what it was supposed to be. Yeah, but still, 14 million viewers on cable just doesn't happen. So, no, I think you're a little piece of that. I accept I was a piece of it.

I accept that I protected it. I love watching you. Sorry. That's how it works. Get over it.

Dax Shepherd
That's what we've learned. It was a good story, though. I can fit in a good story. I can't be charming for 3 hours. Try it.

Arnold
Your movie will fail. You just did it. That movie will fail. Yeah. Yeah.

Dax Shepherd
So does that make Yellowstone a little easier? I see why you occupy that chair. I kind of like that line. You just did it. That's great.

Does that make Yellowstone easier to say yes to? With the great success of Hatfield's, Yellowstone. Was just a really great script. Boy, here comes this boring song from me. It was just a great script.

Again. It's so fucking enormous. Are you shocked by that? I thought it was kind of good. Yeah, I watched the shit out of it.

Arnold
Right. It hadn't been made. And all of a sudden they said, would you go over and sell this to the buyers in Europe, you know? Cause I don't want to make a western about ranching. So I'm honored.

There's nobody on the plane with me. I land there about seven in the morning. I'm whisked to a theater. Now it's 930, and it's filled with, like, 300 buyers from different countries. I said, look, I think it's kind of pretty good.

Are you going to be in all? I looked over the guy that brought me, and he's wanting me to say, yes, you'll be in seven. You know, be in whatever. And I said, no, I've agreed to do three. And I said, but I think this is good enough that it can carry on.

I'm doing it. And I was the only one there. It hadn't been made. And they lost. I liked how that discussion went.

And they go, there's this little thing called the advertisers down in Con. They're all there, you know, all the different restaurants, builders emporium, and anybody that sponsor movies. So I have the same conversation with them. You're going to be in this thing. And so sold this one season for them, and I had finally agreed to do three.

I thought it was going to just be one long one. I'm into long. But then it turned out it was going to be a series. And they first said to me, you want to be in seven? I said, no, it ain't happening.

Well, five. It ain't happening. I didn't want to bait and switch. I said I would do it. So I said, I'll give you three.

Dax Shepherd
Three seasons. And then I ended up making five. I'm not going to make you trudge through that. No, I don't have to. What happens is I just believed in the world.

Arnold
I knew it was a soap opera. I knew we should all be in jail. We've all killed people there. And so you throw logic out the window, right? A little bit.

But he has a great ear, and he just wrote that stuff really authentically, and it was good fun. And he wrote my part especially well and Kelly's part, so listen, I had a lot of fun with it. It's a great example of plot. The plot is fucking moving in that show at, like, a breakneck pace. It was really good.

I recognized that. So I did it the best I could possibly do it. That does set us up. Okay, so as we look deeper into horizon, obviously you've had a lot of success in the sports world. But definitely what you seem to have this crazy connection with is the western.

Dax Shepherd
And I know as a kid you watch a movie that's really impactful. But I'm more curious, what is it about the west that captures your imagination just geographically? What does it symbolize? And then also historically, what is so endlessly interesting to you about it? You have a place in Montana, Colorado.

Arnold
I think there's something about how big the country was and all the possibilities that go with something big and untouched. That was a unique thing. I could feel it as a child. And to live by your wits and to be resourceful, you know, you look at the cowboy and the only possessions he has are on his back and on his horse. And I thought to myself, yeah, that's me going to Canada, getting on a fishing boat.

I have to look to myself. But the west was like the garden of Eden. It was untouched. Compare Europe with the buildings thousands of years old already and civilization, the Middle east, pyramids and great races, cities. But what happens is westerns, for the most part aren't very good in my mind.

For as much as I love them, I go long and hard trying to find one that challenges me. And I see behavior in both good and bad guys that I identify with and realize that in real life there was no law out there. The promise was you could go and it was. How tough were you to be able to hold on to it? There's a great scene where the reality of that that hits you.

Dax Shepherd
You have gotten yourself ensnared in someone else's story by accident, and you reluctantly have to shoot a guy and you're in this tiny little mining ish town. I love that you single that out because people think the west is simple. It's way harder than La or con. It's like if you have a problem, you can go to the store, and if that store doesn't have any food, you can go to another store. And if you got a real problem, you can get a lawyer, you can get the police.

Arnold
When you were out there, there was nothing there. You can't emphasize enough how difficult that was. It wasn't simple at all. How do I arbitrate the life of myself? My family, who is across from me, what do they want?

And you're talking about a guy who just killed somebody and then was humiliated by his brother. He is just unhinged. Yeah, he's trying desperately to claw some masculineity and me. And he has a history of probably dominating people and he just picks wrong. And I love the idea that you don't always know who you're dealing with.

Dax Shepherd
Don't we love that? But is that from being five? Two? It's from me thinking when I know I'm on solid ground. I know this happened a million times.

Arnold
Not this time in this movie, but this happened in some form. We have bullying now in our schools. What you had out there were bullies with guns and nothing to stop them. They're words that have absolutely no meaning in our culture. And back then, they were absolutely finite.

Like the word stranger. When you saw a stranger in the west, it was like the boogeyman. I don't know anything about you. I don't know if you want my water. I don't know if you want my wife.

I don't know if you want my property, my horse. I don't know anything about you. Because you could reinvent yourself. Oh, my God. Yes.

Dax Shepherd
Okay, so really quick. You shoot this guy. And the folks in town have heard a gunshot. They come upon this scene. One guy's dead.

We don't know. You're gonna presumably tell them, yeah, he drew a gun on me, and I had to defend myself. And that's kind. That's kind of where it ends. And people have to decide in town how they're gonna take that.

You shoot this guy, but the problem has just begun. You have to immediately reload. Cause we don't know what the reaction of all these other strangers is gonna be. Did they know this guy? Are they gonna side with him?

Do they think you're the maniac? Sky's the limit at all times. It is. I get the nod from this guy. I just loaned him some money, and all of a sudden he goes, the only favor I can give you is a head start.

Arnold
Cause you're on your own. That's part of this 4.5 series, is these people are relentless. These people will not stop chasing him. Yeah, they're crazy. You have killed a member of a criminal family who's already on the warpath because the patriarch got shot by this woman.

Dax Shepherd
I also love how many questions you leave. I'm like, I don't know why she shoots this guy at the beginning. I'm gonna have to fill in the blanks. That's all. Yeah.

I'm gonna have to assume the worse about this gentleman. Would you want a five hour fucking movie? I know it was 350 at one point. That was my answer. It was 350.

And you knew for sure you couldn't get five minutes out of it? At first I couldn't. And upon that I got it down to, it's so funny. I love you. I couldn't.

Arnold
Then pretty soon there it went. But yeah, the west is terribly complicated. There is no one to arbitrate your problems. And when you create the correct architecture of dilemma, dilemma by definition is you don't know what you're gonna do. So if you create dilemma and audience going, I don't know what he should do.

If I'm sad, the drama is, is he gonna cry? And if you want to kill, but you don't kiss when I want to hit you so bad, there's drama. Is he gonna hit him? It exists in not doing something. Yes, drama exists in that moment.

For me to try to continue to find those moments of architecture and create that and it can exist. And if you're lazy, you don't find it. You have to work hard to find it. You know, Luke Wilson's really good in this part. Yeah, he is.

Dax Shepherd
I'm really excited. I did a movie with him, idiocracy, and I fucking adored him. He's worked really, really hard and he. Really holds it big time. And the word support, people on that wagon, they do not know each other, right?

It's a bunch of strangers. Horizon is unqualified. He just was 6ft. They voted him the captain and now he's starting to pay a price for it. It's beautifully shot.

I think part of the west. When I asked you about the geography right away, we start in horizon and you have these plateaus behind everybody and you know those things are miles wide. If you like fantasy and I love fantasy. That to me is the weird magic of the west in westerns is like, my God, it's big and it's still there. Yeah.

There's no set dressing for you. It's still there. That's the one thing that we can keep in mind. That's probably a little bit to do with Yellowstone. Those mountains are still there.

Arnold
There's still work being done on horseback. Those rivers have not stopped flowing. So if we put drama in front of those, you do have an opportunity to create something that people revisit. I don't know what the other offerings are in the quote unquote marketplace, but I think when you see Horizon, this is about space. Now it's up to me to not let it become obvious, to find a level of surprise and do that in language, because language is what drives a western to me.

Not the gunfight. But there's also a unique architecture to westerns. I was thinking about it a lot while watching it and the westerns have a lot more things unsaid and there's a lot of visual storytelling. But Horizon is heavily written. Danny talks about manifest Destiny.

That script, between me and that guy isn't. You better leave me alone. No, it's a lovely danielle seven minute scene. Yes. And again, back to your dilemma.

But you are talking about the kind of westerns that you've seen that bother you and why that would be hard on you. Because we aren't just about. Yep and nope. There is should be dialogue. It was a victorian age.

And that's why I lean heavily on dialogue because I believe it has its place in horizon. Those big, long scenes. That little boy in the trading thing, is he gonna kill that man? That's a long scene. Well, that was another thing I wanted to bring up that I loved about it is people setting out with good intention.

Dax Shepherd
I just like the multidimensionality of everyone. So there's this race on this settlement. A bunch of people are killed and murdered. Then there's kind of a vigilante group that's gonna go out and seek retribution. But also there's some bounty related.

So it's already a little. Well, it starts to turn into commerce. They said, does it really matter to you who the fuck you're gonna kill? Yeah. Will anyone be able to tell what scalp is?

What scalp? That's right. And that's the reality of these situations. And who says it doesn't matter? The little boy says, no, it doesn't.

That's the other thing that gives it such stakes is there's little people involved. And you remember. Oh, yeah. There were kids along for this ride. These are almost impossible challenges for adults to make their way from Kansas all the way out here.

Arnold
And I've always hated movies where the kids were stupid in an adult world. Yeah, I felt pretty savvy at that age. I did, too. Yeah. I'm like, I would have lived.

Dax Shepherd
Well, I did live. I lived through some shit. Yeah. Yeah. As an adult, it sounds like you navigated some heavy shit, too.

Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare. We are supported by Viator now. Monica. I'm going to Lisbon. So exciting.

And I'm going to use Viator because, you know, I can book a tuk tuk tour of the city on Viator. Yeah. I feel like you can look up even other fun things you guys can do together. Yeah, absolutely. That is where you go to find an experience while you're traveling.

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If things aren't going as planned, download the Viator app now and use code Viator ten for 10% off your first booking. Find travel experiences for you and do more with Viator. We are supported by Betterhelp. It feels like a lot has happened this year. It's barely even summer.

We went to India for by George. We sure did. Lots to process already. Yeah, but even with so much going on, it's important to slow down, take a minute to reflect on yourself and make adjustments. And if you need a little help with that, I can't recommend therapy enough.

We are both in therapy. We proselytize all the time, talk about it every day. Couldn't function without it. If you want to give therapy a try, check out betterhelp. It's entirely online and designed to be convenient and flexible.

All you have to do to get started is fill out a brief questionnaire. Plus, you can switch therapists whenever for no additional charge. So take a moment for yourself. Visit betterhelp.com dax today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp help.com dax.

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Monica Padman
If it's tailored to your body, you. Could have a kabillion dollar suit. And if it doesn't fit, it looks terrible. Yeah, agreed. Yeah.

Dax Shepherd
It's key. Men's warehouse is everywhere, with 600 plus locations nationwide. So if you need one, and you will, there's one near you. Feel like you can do anything in an outfit from men's warehouse, visit your men's warehouse store or click or tap to shop online.

Arnold
So how did you come out being so evolved and fun? Well, I quit drinking at 29, so I had a good decade of. Who helped you go to total addiction? Aa. But who helped you go to aa?

Dax Shepherd
Well, I had a father who had got sober when I was 15, so I had seen someone go from a full blown addict at the height of the crack epidemic. I watched an uncle go all the way, and then both of them came out the other side from this thing, so I at least always knew where I would have to go. You, like, went to meeting with your dad? Oh, yeah, I went to. When you were young?

I lived with my dad for a couple years in high school, and, yeah, I would go to meetings with him, so I had a total awareness of it. I certainly did not want to join that club. No one's striving to join that club. So right before I turned 30, I got sober and haven't drank since. But I've done all the shit.

It was a busy decade. Yeah. The last thing I wanted to talk about, Horizon, is just. This has not been done to my knowledge. I'm not a film historian, but no one's attempted to make four feature length films as a series and release them theatrically.

So I'm reading interviews with you. You're in the middle of promoting the movie. You own the movie. If you want to bring people to Cannes, that's on you. There's so much stuff on your plate.

You've got a ten acre parcel. You've put in the clutches for this. At any point during this, did you think, my God, I made my life really complicated again? Yeah, I did. And what I can't do is let go of the rope.

Arnold
I can't let my obsession with doing this take people down. So I have to just suck it up. When I start to feel sorry for myself or if I can't get something solved, I have to dig deeper, and I have to risk some of these things in my life. Promises are big things. My promise to Whitney, it's a big thing.

My promise to Hatfield and McCoy is when I find out it's fucking Romanian, I still have to follow through, and that came from watching movies, because for as phony as movies are, we realize there's behavior in there that we need to emulate in our life. We wish we were that. Well, we're telling the story of our lives, and some of us want to be that person we saw. We need to be that person. Somebody asked me about big moments in cinema.

I said, you know, one of the most important moments for me was in giant. I don't know if you know the movie. Yeah, yeah. Rock Hudson, so handsome. Elizabeth Taylor, so beautiful.

Comes from the east coast and ends up in the middle of fucking Texas where there's diners or whatever it is. And she's like, aristocat or aristocrat? She's aristocat, but she's like, this is it. But she's in love with him. He's a big Texas deal.

Money and the whole thing. And his son marries a mexican woman, and he reveals what a bigot he is, and his wife is mad at him. You do the architecture of this movie. It's a saga. It's 3 hours long.

My favorite kind of shit. So you wonder how I got formed. Anyway, you get to the end of this movie, he's still a big deal, but he's not the king of the hill anymore. He's got gray hair. So does Elizabeth Taylor.

And they find themselves in a diner where nobody knows him, really. And the guys, a korean vet, and he won't feed them. Have you seen this movie? He's confused, and he says, what? And the guy goes, I'm feeding it.

Your daughter in law, who's mexican, and your little mexican papoose. You know, I fought in Korea. I can do whatever I want. And he's been a bigot his whole life, Rock. But now he's seen it firsthand, the ugliness of it.

And he sees that his daughter in law, who he really hasn't noticed, start to cry. And he gets into a fist fight with this guy. And they play the yellow rose of Texas. Da da da da da da da. Kinda corny, but they fight, and the unthinkable happens.

Rock Hudson is defeated. They're cutting back to the daughter in law, wishing they never went in this diner. Cause now her father in law is fighting. She's crying, the baby's crying. Liz Taylor is watching Rock Hudson get beaten to a pulp.

And finally he is beaten, and he's laying, he's crumpled. He's in the corner. The guy looks at him and walks away from him. We don't like that in America, that that happened. Elizabeth Taylor walks over to him, and she gets down on her knees, and she looks at him.

She said, you never stood taller. Yeah, girl. That line is so informative to me as a young man that he was who he needed to be. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I find myself going, why have I tried so hard to be in a place where I could fail so miserably in front of so many people? No, it's truly incredible. So here I am again. But I have a movie. And I may be up against the wall, but I have one thing that I know.

I give this movie freely in my own mind to people because I know this is the kind of movie I wanted to watch. Fuck, yeah. It's the kind of movie that I needed to see. Well, you know, I actually hate learning about your journey on this because my irresistible fantasy is, I will be done. I've accomplished what I needed to accomplish.

Dax Shepherd
It's time to rest. It's time to stop trying to succeed and trying to be great. The weight of that will disappear. And then another voice is like, well, then what's the fucking point? And you're demonstrating, no, you keep fighting.

Forget the fucking finish line. If you're here, you keep at it. It's wildly inspiring. You might as well be my horse whisperer. Cause I'm thinking the same thing when I get this fourth one done finally time.

Arnold
I need to go find a beach and an umbrella and then go see some solar eclipse somewhere and then drift over and see a Kentucky derby one time. Yeah. Yeah. And I have to check in with the fun stuff a little bit. I'd like to do that, and I think I will.

But I will never give up my work until I realize it doesn't matter to me anymore. Right, but the story of your life at 69, you've taken on probably the biggest battle of your life, which is just fucking wild. You frame it really well. I dig it. It's really cool.

Dax Shepherd
It's really admirable. Well, what happens is it's a UFO moment. I desperately hope I never see one because what the fuck do you do when you've seen one? You can't not see it anymore. So when you tell your friends, all you're hearing is, poor Kevin.

He didn't like coke in the eighties. But apparently all day tonight about how he saw it, he came over the thing and he knows people aren't gonna believe him, but he said he saw them. There was four of them, and one came to him within inches and then blew in his face. And so what happens is, if you've seen one, you can't walk it back. Now you gotta get on the show.

Arnold
And so what happens is I've kinda seen my UFO. I made up my mind it was gonna take anybody else down but me, and so I go. I've heard many great things about you from mutual friends, and it's been a delight to meet you. So thanks so much for giving us so much of your time. I hope everyone checks out.

Dax Shepherd
Horizon in american saga, chapter one and two. The first one is out June 28. That's part one. And then you'll be running on August 16 to see part two. I myself cannot wait to see the conclusion.

Well, midway. Yeah. Chapter two in this great saga. Thank you so much for coming. This has been great.

Arnold
Thank you. Stick around for the fact check. Because they're human, they make lots of mistakes. Do you like corned beef and pastrami?

Monica Padman
I don't know. You don't know? I don't think I've had it. Really? Yes.

But that's funny that you bring it up, because Callie and Max went to Langer's last weekend. That's what this is. Wow. And you've never had langers. Want a little bite?

Yeah. What is it? It's just beef, right? Mm hmm. Why is it called corned beef?

Dax Shepherd
I don't know. I think it's bad branding to call it corned beef, if I'm being honest. Yeah. Mmm. Large grains of rock salt or corns of salt that are used to cure the meat.

Mmm. That's nice. Good. Right. Now you want to try pastrami?

That was corned beef. Oh, they're different. Yeah. Yeah. I like pastrami better, I think.

Monica Padman
Okay, hold on. Let me get this taste. Yeah. Clear your palate. Mm hmm.

Ready? I'm not really tasting a dip that wasn't a great. None of these pieces of pastrami I put in this thing were the good pieces. I ate those yesterday. But pastrami is a seasoning, right?

Dax Shepherd
Yeah. They're both like. I think they're the same probably cut of meat, but they're prepared different ways, and. Yeah, it's a unique seasoning. Yeah.

Monica Padman
They need a rebrand. I mean, they don't because they're sick, and it's working. But I always thought pastrami was a type of meat. Okay. Like a cut.

Mm hmm. Uh huh. And corned beef was a type of meat, and the corned beef one had something to do with corn, and I had no interest in that. Not that you don't like corn, but not in your meat. I'll say it.

I don't love corn. It's in my teeth. Okay, how have you adjusted to the time? All in all, I have to say it's not bad. Yesterday, pretty drowsy again, as we just talked about, I got a humongous platter of langers and just totally indulged myself.

Dax Shepherd
I had this platter of meat and then I had the sprint race, MotoGP sprint race on my DVR and the race race. So back to back races while it's just pounding corned beef and pastrami. And then very drowsy. Monica. Drowsy.

Monica Padman
That sounds like a recipe for drows. And on day one, back to no DC's. Oh, my God. So I didn't have, like, my. Cause I can't drink a cup of coffee at four.

Dax Shepherd
I'll be fucked. But I can sneak into DC for just a little pick me up that was off the table. Okay, so I was nervous about the show we attended last night. Yeah, we'll talk about that. Cause I was like, what was up so early and then was not on DC's in the afternoon.

Monica Padman
What's happening with DC's? Why are you removing them from the table? Aspartame. Well, two things happened. One was I had a day where I drank.

Dax Shepherd
I mean, fucking 100. I don't know. It was the day I went to monster jam and I had drinking a bunch in the day. And then I got there, I was just slugging them. And then I had, like, a real intense psoriasis y episode.

Monica Padman
Okay. And so I was like, like, oh, man, what the fuck? And the only thing I could point to is, like, I had a hundred and I've never tried stopping. I can't get my hands on this psoriasis thing. Everything else good?

Dax Shepherd
You know, with the diet, the joints are good, whatever. So I was like, interesting. Real big flare up right after that. So that was the kernel that was in my head. But then by accident one day, I, like, had my morning coffee, we weren't recording.

The day got completely taken away and all of a sudden it was like, four. And I hadn't had one nor had I had a second coffee. And I was like, oh, my God, I gotta seize this opportunity to dial back my caffeine. Yesterday, back to zero. Today, day two.

Monica Padman
All right. And you don't think instead of just maybe doing, like, three as opposed to 100, like, instead of doing zero, you could do three? Yes, but you know me so well. I do. I can do zero quite easily.

Yeah. I cannot do one. You're right. One is way harder than zero. It's asking too much.

Dax Shepherd
It's just not. It's not a great for my disposition. Yeah, it's like sugar. It's so easy for me to not eat sugar as just a policy as opposed to eat sugar on the weekends. I can't.

Monica Padman
I don't feel like you're a very big sugar boy. You're not a cookie boy. Oh, man, if there weren't gluten in. I love cookies. Chips ahoy, Oreos.

Dax Shepherd
When Nate and I lived together, we were in this conference cycle of, like, we'd eat Oreos every night until we were finally exhausted of them and we'd switch to chip Ahoy's palate cleanser, run those into the ground for like, three weeks. But I'm talking every night and eight night, we get on the couch with our little glasses of milk and turn on tv shows. You've grown, like. I mean, you have to be aware that that was a long time ago, but I was a cookie boy since I. Okay, I won't take away the title.

Monica Padman
Okay, you were a cookie boy. But since I've known you. I've known you before you went gluten free. Yes, yes. I've never known you to be, like, a massive consumer of sugar.

Dax Shepherd
I'm not. And not sugar. Like, I don't fuck with sour patch kids. And candy is candy. Candy, yeah.

But I do love a chocolate candy bar. I love a molten lava cake. You know how I feel about a blizzard. And you've seen me and a blueberry donut. Oh, yes, a fitter.

And you've seen me in action at a Dairy queen. So, you know, when I do eat sugar, I guess it's peddled in the metal. To me, that's not sugar. That's like Dairy Queen. Like, it's a thing that clicks in your head of, I can't get this very often, so I have to get everything.

Monica Padman
But to me, that's separate from sugar. You could have sugar right now. Like, you could have it all the time and you don't, right? But when I have it, I want it, okay? And when I don't have it, I don't want it.

I get it. You know, it's like on day one of any trip to Austin, I go to DQ. And then the next day at like seven, I start thinking like, oh, yeah, we're going to Dairy Queen again. And then I just do that every single night while I'm there. And then, you know, I get two things.

Dax Shepherd
And once in a while, you know, have you ever seen me get after the oreos? Cause when I do it. It's a full row. Yeah. We go like, yeah, we're doing this and we're going to do a full row.

Monica Padman
Sure. Again, tell me. No, I can't. Because you're right. And I think you're smart because you know, you're.

And I'm asking you to be someone you're not by asking you to do two or five instead of the whole box. And it's good that you know you can't do that. Yeah. It's just. And let's say I could.

Dax Shepherd
It would require so much willpower that it'd be uncomfortable. Right. No, I've seen this. You drink two or three glasses of wine and you're fine. You're not, like, you're not slaying the dragon to resist the force.

I am. I know. I want the fourth worse than I wanted the third, and I want the fifth worse than I wanted the fourth. Yeah, I know. That part's really interesting.

Monica Padman
Cause for me it's the first. That's what I struggle with, is I need the first one. But once I have the first one, I've, like, done it. Yeah. Yeah.

I feel calm. I often will get a second one. And I guess the third one depends on what kind of conversation is happening. Right. Right.

Dax Shepherd
If you're gonna. Yeah. Or if it's like we're really in it and we're gonna. We wanna be here for another hour and a half, then I'll do that. Yeah.

Monica Padman
It's not the alcohol that's keeping me there, I guess. Yeah. You get, say I get less satiated the more I do. I know. It's so.

Dax Shepherd
I guess if I were you, that would be very hard to not just comprehend, but almost believe. No, I believe it. And I believe it also because I have seen it in other people too. Right. And I also have been with people who I can see the struggle of.

Monica Padman
Do I shouldn't get another one? Should I get another one? Yes. I can see. And it is taking up all of the brain space.

Dax Shepherd
It's exhausting. They can't even be present. Right. Because, listen, I have done this. It's not like I'm the type of alcoholic that 100% of the time I drank, I drank a fifth in a case.

There were times where, like, I relapsed with one week left of without a paddle. And I'm like, okay, I have to drink, but I have to drink in a way that I don't fuck up the next day. So I was like, allowed to have two glasses of wine in my apartment. Oh, and I could do that for a week, but it's not a win. It's like, it's such a battle.

Glasses one and two are fine, and then I'm in the cage with the tiger, battling not to have a third and stay up later and be fucked for work. Right? And then at the end of the week, I'm smoking meth out of a broken light bulb in my apartment and I take nine hits of ecstasy within two weeks. You don't have to convince me that you're an addict. I believe it.

Monica Padman
I've seen it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it. And I apologize that I've asked you to try to someone you're not. You don't need to apologize. No, but I do.

To anyone who. The only thing that's triggering to me is actually the wordage of, like, why don't you. You just. Exactly. It's so loaded to me.

I get it. Like, it's nothing. Like one of you is a simple thing. I know, but when you're not in it, that's how it feels like, well, why don't you just do this? Like, that's what I do.

It's easy. But of course it's a different brain chemistry and it's. I feel that way too. I don't think I vocalize it, but it's like, why don't you just journal and work out for an hour and a half a day? To anyone, that's like struggling, right?

Dax Shepherd
But I know that that's not on the table for people, but for me, it's as obvious as that. It's like, well, I think it's. Okay, advice, but if I said, why don't you just. That's the. Sure.

Monica Padman
Why don't you just destroy. It's basically like you're lazy that you're not doing. This is so simple. Why don't you just make a gratitude list every day, journal, and work out for an hour? Right.

Dax Shepherd
I mean, I think you would feel a little, like, weirdly judged in the layout of that. I feel judged, but I think. I think I would also, that one feels slightly different to me because it's the specific protocol that works for you and it's like assuming that that works for everyone, whereas, like, moderation for most. Well, the 1 hour exercise per the England's NHS 1 hour. But hour and a half journal gratitude list is specifically your concoction.

Yes, but the workout for sure, that's not anyone's opinion. I agree. That's a better antidote to mild depression. Than anti depressing except not when you're like, I was working out, I was walking every day for two weeks and I was like, I'm not feeling it. That is how I knew, oh, I do need to adjust, right, because these other things aren't working.

Yes. But I recognize that for whatever reason, that kind of routine that I can do, obviously is easier for me. I mean, I'm not hero now, again, I remember when I first wanted to start working out and it was the third glass of wine battle. Like, okay, I said I was going to the gym on Tuesdays, Thursdays and whatever, and Tuesday comes and literally I'm sitting in my apartment for an hour trying to talk myself into it, and then I came up with the hack of like, okay, really? All I have to do is put on my workout gear and drive to the gym.

Anyone could do that. And then you're allowed to turn around when you get there. Yeah, once I was there, I always did it. But I did have to trick myself along the way. I don't know.

Monica Padman
Yeah. Wow, that was a really great little detour. So, show last night. Oh, yeah. So we went to the Reefer Madness premiere, the stage production.

Dax Shepherd
Stage production for people don't know, 1930s, like scare tactic, government film, Reefer Madness. It was like a news release show and was warning people the evils of marijuana. And if you smoked it once, you'd go crazy and you'd like jazz music and you'd get pregnant, blah, blah, blah. And then that became a fun thing. People used to watch and get stoned too.

Kind of like rocky horror picture show. Right. Then there was a musical made out of that that started in LA, then it went to Broadway. And then Kristen was in this. Yes.

And they were supposed to open two days after 911. So it didn't happen. They were starting on Broadway. She. Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah. I thought she was in it on Broadway. Well, but it didn't happen. Cause of 911. It never happened on Broadway?

No. Oh. Like all of Broadway shut down and then it didn't. Got it. But was she in the movie?

So then they made a movie of that that Kristen was in. Okay, got it. Yes. And now it's back as a musical once again. And hopefully it'll end up on Broadway.

Blah, blah, blah, blah. Kristen's appreciated producer on it. Yeah. And so you and I went. Yes, it was vip.

Very, very interesting Portuguese. That's what I was calling the people in the VIP section at Taylor Swift. Very interesting Portuguese. That's great. Okay, so we see each other at the entrance.

We talk for quite a while up there. Yeah. Then we go and we see the show. That's another couple hours. Yeah.

And then I'm saying goodbye to you, and I go, oh, my. Monica does have pants on. I was wearing. I was not wearing pants, but I was wearing, like, a. Basically, like, mini shorts.

Monica Padman
But there weren't really many. Like, they were basically like a diape. They were a dipe. They were a Dior. Silk Dior.

Dax Shepherd
Dipe. Yeah. And a blazer and tights. So I was covered. Right, right.

But it was very funny when I stepped up at the end to chat with you as you were about to go. And then I was like, oh, Jesus, Monica's not wearing that. Did you think maybe I lost my pants in the middle? Something happened to her slacks during the performance. She must have spilled some pastrami on them or something and had to quickly get them in cold water.

Monica Padman
Yeah, yeah. But we went super fun. It was super fun. It's very campy and funny, and it's. A scene, and you were triggered.

Dax Shepherd
Cause you were at a table with all Indians. I wasn't gonna bring it up, but I'm glad you did. Yeah. I love that boy so much, Karen. Yes.

Monica Padman
Yeah. He's incredible. Oh, my gosh, I love him. He the sweetest. You know, I've known Karen since UCB.

Dax Shepherd
Oh, really? We did UCB at the same time. We were all in groups, and his partner is really awesome, too. And then there was another indian man there, and. Yeah, it was racist.

Uh huh. And then Kristen felt guilty, so she tried to reverse racism me and say I was racist for calling it out. Right. You're supposed to be colorblind. I guess it was funny, though.

Monica Padman
Yeah. If you didn't know anyone in the mix. Yeah. And you walked by that table, you'd go, oh, this family's here 100%. I was like, they think we're all.

Dax Shepherd
Together, but kind of flattering is Karin is what a group family member to have. That's what white people say to make themselves feel better. Right. But it is kind of funny because that is true. Right.

Monica Padman
Like, you would. Anyone would think that. I would think that. No. And then, well, you would think they.

Dax Shepherd
Were together, whether they were all friends from college or they were family members. But you wouldn't think, oh, there's four random indian folks seated together. Cause that would be segregation. Which it was. But I don't.

I think it was inadvertent segregation. I don't think anyone thought, like, oh, yeah, they're all indian stick them together. Well, we were an unbeatable table. You guys would have fucked everyone up. There had been any kind of test of connections.

Monica Padman
Oh, can I talk to you about something important? Yeah, about connections. Oh. That was a weighted delivery. But let's see here.

It's been brewing. Oh, wow. For, like, three days. Oh, wow. I'm sad about something.

Dax Shepherd
What? I feel like now, when you have made mistakes, you don't send it in. But I. You would say it. I come on and say it.

Monica Padman
I know. Even send your course. Oh, you can. Yeah. I mean, I do.

Like, if mine is a big old mess, I still send it. I send it if it's six, and I get it. But if you run. Oh, you can. Yes.

Dax Shepherd
Literally, I was like, oh, when you run out and it's like, maybe next time. I don't even think there's anything to send. I see. So then I quickly go onto the thread and own up to the fact that I didn't get it entirely. You do own up.

Monica Padman
I'm not saying you're, like, hiding it, because originally, when we first started playing, you would send not getting it. And then, like, early days, but not getting it. Meaning I would send in the results. Or I would send in the results. Yeah.

And sometimes you wouldn't have got it at all. Oh, so you're saying I have sent in. You have. Oh, I thought I have sent in the time. Whatever I get, we're on the same page.

Sure. So that. Has that happened? And I was. I was always very proud that you.

Especially when you first joined the group. Yeah. Yeah. I had a feeling that you weren't going to send it if you didn't get it, and then you did, and I was happy about that. Right.

Cause that means we all are aware that we're on the same level and we're fine to show when we just can't get it. Yes. Safe space. Safe space. Fail safe space.

That's right. Yeah. And so I got worried some days ago. That's truly a confusion. Cause again, I do.

Dax Shepherd
I mean, immediately go on and go. I couldn't get on. I know. So I'm not hiding it. All right, this is good to clear up.

But I think way more important than that was the fact that you and I were soul sisters. Reverse. That was huge. I don't think that's happened yet. Now I can tell.

I can own up to a shortcoming I have, which is once I fuck up, once, I almost don't care, and then I just am very reckless. I don't try to salvage it much. That's fine. Like I care when it's gonna be perfect. Well, in order.

I care the most if I get purple first, then blue, then green, then yellow. Call a reverse back which our listeners, our longtime listeners will know. That's a word we invented here. Yes. Which was some kind of curious but yet to be defined sexual act.

We just knew it sounded sexual, but. We didn't know what it was. We weren't sure. But now we've coined getting reverse order on connections. So getting purple hardest blue, second hardest green, yellow.

Monica Padman
A reverse back. Right. Do you hold off if you then see the easy one before guessing? Yes. Well that's exactly how I.

Dax Shepherd
My method is to go on. I click the forward easiest ones. Now I'm only looking at twelve. Then I try to find the next and then I whittle that down to the remaining eight. But then once I get that and I submit it and it's like fucking green.

I'm so pissed. So already level one of me starting to care less. That's silly. I know, but I'm owning this. And so it's still good if you don't get a reverse back because we also tried to get Uni P's which means each one of us in the group has a different order.

Monica Padman
That's also very exciting for us. Yes. Yeah. Once I get the error and I'm only. And it's high likelihood.

Dax Shepherd
Cause I'm only going for purple. Yeah. I like a reverse back. Yeah. I'm not gonna act like I don't.

Monica Padman
That's my goal. Yes. But I'm still very happy if I get it. No mistakes. Me too.

Dax Shepherd
I'm kinda like detailing the levels of my interest and dedication to it. If I get purple first, I'm fighting to the end now. But even if I get blue first now, at least it shifts to well, I gotta get out of this thing perfectly. Right. But if I make a mistake on the first one going for purple, I almost don't wanna play anymore.

Monica Padman
Yeah. Cause today and I get really reckless. There was a potent. Yes. Literally Rob was a clue.

Dax Shepherd
Yeah. And I got a little excited. I did say if the universe says why on there? That's obvious. It's done.

Monica Padman
Yeah. Then we. Because it doesn't mean anything. Wabi. There's no.

Arnold
What? Wasabi. But. Well it have to be w a b. Yeah, but it has to be.

Dax Shepherd
What's the name for that? When you spell a word differently but it makes the same sound. And hominin. Hominin. So it could be a homonym for japanese food.

So it could be wabi. Although wabi sabi is not japanese food. It's the first. It's a hobinum for the first part. An asian phrase.

Monica Padman
I don't know. She's cheeky. She can. If anyone could figure it out, it'd be her. Yeah.

Okay. I did something yesterday before Reefer madness. I went to this event. It was sort of a marketing event, but then they had panels and speaking, and I got to interview Jason Sudeikis. Yes.

Dax Shepherd
How long was the interview? 45. And did you come in with a bunch of set questions? I did. Okay.

Monica Padman
We got to like one of them. A few. Cause we just started chatting. Lovely. And it was really fun.

And I really liked him. Good. Yeah. Yeah. He's very charming.

He said he sends his love to you and Kristen. Ah, lovely. And he said he hadn't seen you in a really long time. Very long time. Very charming.

Dax Shepherd
Yeah. And the day before, I thought it was in Palm Springs. Yes, you did. That's what you had told me the first time. Right.

Monica Padman
Turns out it was in Carlsbad, which is San Diego. That was a. Yikes. And I had already invited Jess, and I said, oh, you know, I have this thing tomorrow. It's in Palm Springs.

And he was like. He's like, do you want me to go with you? So it was unethical. Well, it's just a big bait and switch. It was.

And I felt unethical once I learned it was in San Diego. And I didn't tell him, but this all happened very fast. It was the day before. He said, do you want me. Me to go with you?

And I said, yes. And then he came with me, and it was so fun. How long was the drive? Two and a half hours. It wasn't too terrible.

Dax Shepherd
Cause you left at rush hour. Yeah, we left at the worst timing possible. But it was only two and a half hours. And then two and a half hours back. Oh, that's great.

Monica Padman
Yeah, it wasn't bad. Well, we were in the hove. Yeah. Which was fun. I heard motherfuckers saying, they made hove.

Dax Shepherd
I heard hove say, okay, then make another hove. I like Jay Z. Me, too. We listened to some. We listened to music.

Monica Padman
Oh, on the way, of course. He said it like, that was like the most novel thing. You know, we rolled the windows down a little bit for a portion of it. Yeah, that did happen. And he put his hand out and I said, put it back in.

Cause I thought maybe he would get his hand chopped off. Yeah. If anyone might lose an arm. Exactly. Yeah.

Music is a joke between Jess and I. Cause he picks me up from the airport a lot, too, which is very nice. And he always says, we'll play music as an incentive. Carrot. Yeah.

Speaking of carrot, the restaurant had a steakhouse which we went to, and it served one carrot. Oh, really? One enormous carrot. Yes. Anyway, so that was a fun little 24 hours adventure.

Dax Shepherd
Yeah. Okay, now this is for Kevin Costner. Oh, the koss. Okay, I have a couple facts. You said that California would send oranges to people on the east to get people to cry.

Yeah. Yeah. Train cars full. So that made me want to look up state fruits. Oh, interesting segue.

Monica Padman
I'm gonna read some. This is a list. Okay. If you want to guess, feel free. I only know three.

Okay. Alabama. Okay. Alabama. Fruit.

Dax Shepherd
Not vegetable. Fruit. Fruit. Alabama's fruit. The pineapple.

Monica Padman
No way. That was a huge swing. BlackBerry. Weird. Okay.

Arkansas. Ooh, you're not gonna like the answer. Apricots. Nope. Vine ripe.

Pink tomato. I guess they say it's a fruit. They do. They do say that. Florida, by the way, so specific.

Dax Shepherd
Vine ripe pink. Come on, guys. It's a pretty looking tomato. I bet it is. Okay.

Monica Padman
Florida orange. Yes. Georgia peaches. That's next. Oh, look how pretty.

Oh, Idaho. We can't say. Corn. No. It's gonna be a berry or something.

Yep. Blueberry. Close. Huckleberry. Yes.

Dax Shepherd
Huckleberry pie. What is a huckleberry? It looks like a kind of. It looks like a blueberry on this picture. Oh, it does.

Oh, I was thinking it looked more like a raspberry or boozenberry or boozen buddies.

Is Michigan cherry? God, I hope. Hold on. Illinois gold rush apple. Kentucky.

I love how specific these are. Half eaten. Gold rush apple. Kentucky's a BlackBerry. Louisiana.

Monica Padman
Louisiana strawberry. Ooh. Maine wild blueberry. Yeah, great pick. Maine.

Massachusetts cranberry. Really quick. You know, I think a lot of this does reflect what order they join the union. Like, if you're Maine, you're the first one in or you get to pick or Connecticut or whatever. Yeah, you grabbed blueberry or something.

I don't think. Isn't it what grows there? Yeah, but these things grow everywhere. So these apples grow in probably 15 states. Michigan's got a big apple industry, but if they see lady bird or Lady Smith, little lady pink ladies already take it and they can't take it.

Dax Shepherd
There is an available list, but I. Don'T think the peaches in other areas are as good as in Georgia. I don't even know if they make the best peaches. But they definitely claimed it first. They make the best.

Well, I think California makes the best of everything. It does. I do think. No, it really does. Like, I remember my brother's father in law owned grocery stores and he would go to these grocer conventions once a year.

And he said that at these grocer conventions, 49 states would make up about half of the haul. And then just California was always half the haul. Well, do you remember when we were in India and we were at the market and nuts, most of the nuts came from California. We crank out the food from the. I'm proud of that.

San Joaquin Valley and the. Yeah, okay. Minnesota. Honeycrisp apple. Missouri.

Monica Padman
Norton Cynthia grape. Nope. Norton Cynthiana grape. New Hampshire pumpkin. That's cool.

Dax Shepherd
It is, but not very appetizing outside the box. Yeah. Again, fruit pumpkin. I guess so. New Jersey.

Monica Padman
Highbush blueberry. New York. They had to say high Bush blueberry because Maine already said blueberry. I know, but guess who. Okay, New York.

Are you reading the same list? No, I'm not reading. Rob's having impulse control. I know, but he is, right. Apple.

Dax Shepherd
Just a general apple. They got the original apple right. That's what they call it. The big apple. Exactly.

I just learned that, though. Just as you were saying it. Yeah. Okay. North Carolina.

Monica Padman
Oh, you're not gonna like this. Cherry. Scuppernong grape. North Dakota. Choke cherry.

Ohio tomato. Regular tomato. Sorry. Tomato. Ohio.

Dax Shepherd
Although, look, they disagree. They were early on, too, so they were able to just say tomato. What if they didn't say steak? Responsible for us thinking tomatoes are fruits. Cause I still have a very hard time with that.

You think that's worse than pumpkins? Pumpkin is like a fucking tuber. I know, but a pumpkin I could see in a salad more than a. I mean. Whoa.

Monica Padman
Opposite, opposite. Sorry. A tomato I can see in a salad, a vegetable salad much more than a pumpkin. Let's just say that all fruits, universally. I think this would be the best criteria to define a fruit is if you would want them on a hot summer day.

Dax Shepherd
I agree. Like a fresh plate of. Blank. This fruit. A fresh plate of pumpkin on a hot summer's day.

No fucking way. I love that. Okay. Oklahoma. Strawberry regs.

Monica Padman
That's cool. Oregon pear. Did you skip Michigan? It's not on here. It might be.

It might be. Well, they're not going alphabetical. Rhode island. Greening apple. South Carolina.

Carolina Peach. Wait, there you go. Double up. Oh, mco. Oh, no.

Now I don't check this list. Cause now it's saying Tennessee's tomato also. Oh, Tennessee. Texas. Texas red grapefruit.

Hold on. Let me see if Michigan's on here. It's not on here. Oh, my God. What a shitty list.

Dax Shepherd
How dare they leave out Michigan fruit? Michigan fruit. I'm gonna type it. 12Th most populous state. Michigan.

Monica Padman
It doesn't have a official fruit. Apples, cherries, and raspberries. Oh, my. Oh, my is not a fruit. You never heard of it?

Okay. I think fresh plate of oh, my. No, no. Let's just wrap it up. Are there any big.

He's here. I know. He'll stall him for a second. Okay. I'm flushed.

I have another list. Oh, okay, well, I guess we'll resume afterwards. Yeah, we can pause. We're not gonna spoil. But we did Easter egg.

Just interview someone who's now at the top of the best boy list. I mean, like, maybe past Jimmy. Sorry. Yeah. Might have flown by.

Shit. It might be the number one best boy we've ever interviewed. Good thing we have an extra. Yeah. It won't look like him.

Dax Shepherd
Here's a clue. It doesn't look anything like Jimmy Kimmel. No, that's right. Okay, but you were saying, BTS, we had to pause because we were going long and we had a guess, but now we're back. Now we're back.

And you have another list. And now I have another list. And so. So Kevin said, finished with engines, and it's a naval term, and he was talking about that. It was a movie.

Monica Padman
And that made me want to look up, what are some military sayings that have become popularized. Oh, great. Okay. Roger that. Mm.

Roger that. Rather than yes. Under the old NATO phonetic Alphabet, the letter R was pronounced Roger. On the radio, radio operators would say Roger to mean that a message had been properly received. The meaning involved, until Roger meant yes.

Today, the NATO phonetic Alphabet says Romeo in place of R. But Roger is still used to mean a message was received. I'm gonna start saying Romeo that. Okay. To stay updated, also, bite the bullet.

Dax Shepherd
Okay. Why would you bite a bullet? Fighters on both sides of the american civil War use the term bite the bullet, but it appears they may have stolen it from the british. British army. Captain Francis Grose published the book Dictionary of the vulgar tongue in 1811 and used chew the bullet to explain how proud soldiers stayed silent while being whipped.

Oh, wow. Yikes. Okay, so time to put the thing in your mouth and get your whipping. Yep. Balls to the wall.

Monica Padman
Also, I know this one going balls out. Okay. But even deeper. Cause that's even not military. And I only know this cause I toured Jay Leno's garage, and he collects steam engines.

Okay. And steam engines would have these set of weighted balls that were on little pistons, and they laid flat. But as the steam gained momentum, it spun it, and then when it lifted through centrifugal force, the balls directly out horizontally. Balls out. That was full throttle.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. It says, for military aviation, where pilots would need to get their aircraft flying as fast as possible, their control levers had balls on the end, so this. This is a little different.

Pushing the accelerator all the way out. Balls out would put the ball of the lever against the firewall in the cockpit. Balls to the wall. When a pilot really needed to zoom away, they'd also push the control stick all the way forward, sending it into a dive. Obviously, this would put the ball of the control stick all the way out from the pilot and against the firewall.

Dax Shepherd
It's a very phallic experience. Big time. Bought the farm. Oh, it means to die. I know that.

But why? Thought to date back to 1950s jet pilots, there was no clear agreement on exactly how the phrase came about. It could be from war widows being able to pay off the family farm with life insurance payments, or farmers paying off their farms with the damage payout they'd received when a pilot crashed on their land, or the pilots who wanted to buy a farm after they retired being said to, quote, buy the farm early when they died. The first one feels most plausible to me. Ooh, caught a lot of flak.

Monica Padman
Flak is actually an acronym for german air Defense Cannons. The Germans called the guns. Boy, no way. Okay. Not even gonna try?

Okay, I can try. Fliger. Abwer. Canonen Flyger means flyer, abwer abuer means defense, and kanonen means cannon. Airmen in World War two would have to fly through dangerous clouds of shrapnel created by flak.

The phrase progressed in meaning until it became equated with abusive criticism. That's cool. Had you read catch 22, which you haven't, you would be super aware of flak. It's all over that book. Like, in the german way.

Dax Shepherd
He was a gunner on a plane in world War two, and they were constantly flying through flock. Foo bar. Snafu. Tarfu. Mm hmm.

Monica Padman
We've talked about snafu. I think system's normal. All fucked up. Uh huh. All three words are acronyms.

FUBAR stands for fucked up beyond all recognition. Love it. Snafu is situation normal, all fucked up, and Tarfu is things are really fucked up. You know, one that I learned while in Africa with a dude, that was an active green beret. Is.

Dax Shepherd
They would say things were a real soup sandwich. You can't. It's impossible to eat. Too hard to eat it. Yeah.

Yeah. And I really like that one. Well, this is a fucking soup sandwich. Okay. I like this.

Monica Padman
Geronimo. Geronimo is yelled by jumpers leaping from a great height, but it has military origins. Paratroopers. With the original test platoon at Fort Benning, Georgia. Ding, ding, ding.

Yelled the name of the famous native american chief on their first mass jump. The exclamation became part of airborne culture, and the battalion adopted as their motto. Okay, we know in the trenches that's obvious. Mm hmm. Got your six?

Dax Shepherd
Mm hmm. Military members commonly describe direction using the hours of a clock. Whichever direction the vehicle, unit, or individual is moving is the 12:00 position. So the 06:00 position is to the rear. Got your six.

Monica Padman
And the related watch your six comes from service members telling each other that the rear is covered or that they need to watch out for enemy attacking from behind. No man's land was widely used by soldiers to describe the area between opposing armies in their trenches in world War one. It was then morphed to describe any area that it was dangerous to stray into, or even topics of conversation that could anger another speaker. Nuclear option. That's obvious.

On the double. Anyone who has run into a military formation will recognize the background of. On the double. Quick time is a standard marching pace for troops, and double time is twice that pace, meaning the service member is running, doing something. On the double is moving at twice the normal speed while completing the task.

Oh, okay. Screw the pooch. Oh, here we go. Screw the pooch was originally an even racier phrase. Fuck the dog.

It meant to loaf around or procrastinate. However, by 1962, it was also being used to mean that a person had bungled something. Bungle. Now it was more commonly used with the latter definition. Bungle's a great word.

Dax Shepherd
Yeah, I don't use that enough. Maybe that'll be my new over index. Oh, wow. Okay. Okay.

Monica Padman
That's all for that list. That was a fun list. I know you did not bungle it. Thank you. I feel like I learned something.

He mentioned Ahab. So son of success for was this. I bungled that you bungled. That was the son and successor of King Omri. Do you know it?

King Omri? Cause he's referring to the lead character in Moby Dick. That's what the reference is about. A man who becomes crazed and obsessed with killing this whale. Okay?

Dax Shepherd
It brings people down in his pursuit of that. Well, he was the son and successor of King Omri and the husband of Jezebel of Sidon, according to the Hebrew Bible. He was widely criticized for causing, quote, moral decline in Israel, according to the Yahwehs. And he was talking about moral decline when he was talking about this. So I'm not sure.

Oh, I am, because I heard him give the exact. This one I happened to actually know he gave the exact same analogy in a different interview, talking about Ahab from Moby Dick, who was named after this movie. Okay. Yeah. So it's all about.

Monica Padman
It's the same thing. Yes, yes, yes. Okay. But he's been saying to people, basically, horizon is not my Moby Dick. Right.

Dax Shepherd
Yeah. Okay, well, that's it. That's everything. What a blessing he was. Yeah.

Monica Padman
Legends are cool. Legends are legends for a reason. Legends be legending. Similar to your pants. I just realized your whole shirt is ripped off in your armpit.

This has a rip. My pants are not ripped. Okay, great. Phew. I thought you were telling me they were all rich.

Dax Shepherd
With as much shopping you do, it's shocking that you are in tattered clothes. This is vintage. It's a look. Was that intentionally put in that huge hole? No, but vintage items get holes.

Monica Padman
Cause they're old. Yeah. My shirt that I'm currently wearing is my very favorite. Velvet by Graham and whoever. They made a cut that they don't make anymore, that the side is cut like this.

Dax Shepherd
And I only have one. One left. And I wear this frequently. And in the back, just below the label, it's starting to get real cheese clothy. But it's okay.

Monica Padman
I think it's cool to have holes like I have. I had a shirt that was my favorite shirt from high school. It was my ex girlfriend Stephanie's junior high athletic shirt. You would be hard pressed to find a photo of me between 92 and 96 where I'm not wearing that shirt. Have we said bye yet?

Dax Shepherd
Are you about to notice something new in the room? No, I just. I thought we said bye. And I didn't know if we were still recording, if we were just talking. Oh, no, we hadn't said bye.

You said that was it. Oh, sure. And then you did a. Well, you did maybe, like, a cue for me to say goodbye. But then I told you about a t shirt.

Monica Padman
Well, you saw my hole. Yes, exactly. You were yawning and stretching, and then you had this pancake size hole. It is large. Yeah, it's a very big hole.

Dax Shepherd
And again, I saw it at the very end. Even is small, according to the chocolate. We had from David Sedaris. All right, love.

Monica Padman
All right, love.

Dax Shepherd
All right, love.

Kevin Costner

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2: Career Insights

3: Personal Philosophy

4: Industry Perspectives

5: Looking Forward

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