Armchair Anonymous: Parent's Secret

Dax Shepard
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Monica
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Dax Shepard
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Welcome to Armchair Anonymous. We have a fun prompt today. Tell us about a secret your parents kept from you as a kid. Yes. These really run the gambit.

Monica
There's some serious ones. There's some funny ones. Yes. Yeah, it's good. And there's no pukey stuff.

Dax Shepard
No, that I recall, although I often forget. But there is an animal who passes. Okay, but it's not gory. I don't know. It's not a dog either.

Monica
Okay. Or cat. Should we hide? Yeah, it's not a cat. Or a rabbit.

Dax Shepard
Or a rabbit. Yeah, but closest to a rabbit. Yeah. Yeah. I think rodent death's okay.

Monica
No, people did not like when I was just trying to catch that mouse. Oh, they didn't. Or rat. I don't know if they did, but I assume they didn't. I caught a mouse the other day.

You did? In the bus again. I know. These mice love the bus. Who could blame them?

I know. Yeah, they're really smart. Yeah. Then we released it in your backyard, in fact. Oh, no.

Dax Shepard
Yeah. And when I say we, I mean Carly Dax. I can't start out with a mouse problem. Although it wouldn't be ironic. He'll leave.

There's nothing to eat over there yet. Oh. Oh, my God. We're gonna start a war with each other. We're gonna have a mouse war.

Monica
Once I move it. No, I won't be doing it. I'll forbade it, okay? So please enjoy. Parents secrets.

Dax Shepard
Hard times come and go good times take em slow my life, I had em both remember one thing you gotta know I'm gonna keep on shining. Hi. Hi. Deepest apologies. Our previous prompt, we were talking to people, was stalking.

Every one of the stories was like 45 minutes. So we're so sorry. We're behind. Holy shit. No, it's okay.

Monica
And get ready for those. They are. Woo. Yeah. You're gonna wanna listen to those at high noon, not at night by yourself.

Dax Shepard
Whoa. Good advice. Today I was at the gym and I was listening to the gym one with the person on the treadmill laughing. That's one of the best visual stories. It is so funny.

Suzanne
And I was, like, laughing at you laughing. Mom, it was so good. Yeah, that one really got Monica. It really did. I was crying, laughing on the treadmill.

But I tapped my sweatshirt on because I learned so much from that one. Are we calling you Susan? Suzanne. Suzanne. It's spelled wrong, but my mom had a lot going on at the time, which you'll hear in the story.

Monica
Ding, ding, ding. Please forgive her. Okay. And before we get there, even though we're making up for lost time, you have that blurry thing on in your background. But what's happening is one of your pink shoes is popping out every now and then.

Dax Shepard
So at first I thought, oh, she has like an emo. Oh, yeah, when? Oh, yes, yes, yes. I thought, oh, she has like an emoji thing happening that my kids put on when they're talking. And I was like, her children must use this account.

And they've got the pop up emojis. Not the case. No. I'm in my closet. Thank you.

Suzanne
And I did artfully arrange cute shoes right behind my head. This is the best I could do, but I don't have to unblur, so you can trust me. We call that set decoration in show business. Set decoration. Exactly.

Exactly. Also, I just realized this light in this closet is a motion sensor, so sometimes it just turns off. Okay, thanks for warning us. I hope Monica doesn't get triggered with a seizure with his pop out shoes. And we want to double down on your kepper right now.

Dax Shepard
I know. Generic brand. Thank you. Generic brand. I would feel horrible.

Okay, Suzanne, tell us about a secret your parents kept from you. Okay. I'll go through this story kind of chronologically, and the reveal comes when I'm an adult. And, Monica, just so you know, this is a happy story. Oh, good.

Suzanne
You don't have to be worried. I don't know what you've been through today. Oh, too much. Too much. My cortisol levels are high.

Okay, I think this will be a happy one. My mom and dad met in the 1960s at work. My mom played the harp, and my dad played the clarinet, and they were in the New York freaking philharmonic. No way. This is beautiful.

Growing up, we used to get Christmas cards from Leonard Bernstein. And I am, like, the biggest family disappointment because I play no instruments. I have very little musical talent. Are you good at math? I'm good at math, yeah.

Dax Shepard
Cause they say classical musicians are really good at math. But I'm not good at classical music. But I can sing, I guess. I mean, I can, like, rock the karaoke mic, but that's slightly different chromosome, right? Yeah.

Suzanne
So they got together. They were in New York City, and they were, like, these cool musicians. And then I was born in 1969, and my sister Lori was born 15 months later. And then my mom and dad got divorced, like, right after that, so I was a baby. Those kids can ruin a marriage.

Let's just say my mom had to quit the philharmonic. She and I and Lori took a train from New York City, and we moved to Peoria, Illinois. Oh, big change. Poor mom. Big change.

Yeah, poor mom. But we moved in with our grandparents. They were great. Jack and Ethel. Jack and Ethel in Peoria had just built their retirement party house.

And instead of getting to have their groovy parties, they got two harps in the conversation pit and two toddlers. Oh, jeez. And we used to scratch our names into the wallpaper. It had, like, that 3d wallpaper. And I remember writing Suzanne in that wallpaper and, like, doing striptease copacabana dances in that conversation.

But they never really got to have a party. Cause we live there our whole childhood. Wow. Yeah. It never ends.

It doesn't. It was great. I grew up in Peoria, in that house. My mom, grandparents, and my sister. And we really never heard from my dad again.

Although sometimes we would see him. Cause he was still in the New York Philharmonic. So, like, we would see him on PBS playing the clarinet. And my grandma would be like, hey, kids, come in here. Your dad is on tv.

But we never saw him again. And really, the only memory I had of him was his shoes. I told the story to a friend in college, and she's like, you should paint that memory. So I did. And I'll just show you really quick because I still have this painting.

Monica
So you're a painter. So you are very painting. I'm not a painter. And this is blurry. Oh, it's blurry.

Suzanne
Anyway, I don't know what to do with it. Okay. It's some legs and some shoes. Yeah. The visual component of the story didn't pan out, but that's okay.

Monica
That's okay. Exactly. And also, I realize we are on a podcast, but anyway, just for you. So my sister Lori, 15 months younger, we were complete opposites. And we used to fight all the time.

Suzanne
And it would always come out like, I think you're adopted. And one time, just to get me in trouble, my sister carved the words Lori is a asshole onto her own bedroom door. Oh, self aware. I mean, it was totally to frame me. I was getting a spanking.

Dax Shepard
That's very machiavellian, though. I gotta applaud Laurie. I didn't even get it. It was so dark. She framed her.

Suzanne
I am pretty proud of her. That was a good move. And then when I was growing up, my mom, who was pretty quirky at baseline, did a couple of really weird things that, in retrospect were maybe like clues to this secret. So I'll tell you two. I have a sniff of the secret.

I know. Do you want to whisper to Monica? No, I don't like that. I like that she hates that. I know.

I learned that today. So, weird thing number one. When I was 19, I was living in Peoria, but headed out to a girls weekend in New York City. And my mom was like, hey, while you're in New York, why don't you look up doctor Nash? He's the Ob that delivered you.

His office is on Clark Avenue. I'm sure he would love to meet you. I was like, yeah, mom, whatever. That is so weird. That's preposterous.

Dax Shepard
OB's aren't trying to get reconnected with the 10,000. I'm not babies with my own ideas. Yeah, they don't want to, like, see you again. Yes. He's missed you.

Suzanne
Yeah. Don't worry, you guys. I did not go hang out with my mom gynecologist. So went to the girls weekend, had a lot of fun. Forgot all about it.

Then I was 22, 23, in my first kind of serious relationship with a boy, and it was getting pretty serious. So my mom wanted to meet his parents, and instead of just being, like, chill and normal, she started grilling them. Like, where are you from? Are you from New York? What hospital was Rob born in and what day?

And she's asking him all these, like, really super personal cringy questions, and she wasn't like that. She was weird and quirky, but not that way. Well, she spent a lot of time with herself in a harpsichord. That's a personality type. Okay, but now I do want us to tell what you think it is because I want to say what I think.

Dax Shepard
Well, I think the reason the dad was willing to just bounce all together is he found out these. These weren't his children. Right? Is that your guess? I think there's more.

Suzanne
You guys are good. You guys are good. When I tell this story at parties, people are dislikeless. That's why I resist doing it. Cause I don't mean to take the fun out of your reveal, but I'm such a fucking skeptic that thinks everyone's conning everyone.

Dax Shepard
I pick it up quick. I don't know. And this topic is parent secret, so there's gotta be something. Huge clue. So she's grilling the lover, which is uncomfortable, and she's telling me to meet the ob, which is super weird.

Suzanne
And I didn't put this together until years later. So now we're gonna skip forward 20 years. 20 years. At this point, my mom was sick. She actually got cancer, and she was dying.

And she sat me and my sister Lori down, and she told us this big secret that she had kept her whole life. So here's what I know. Things in the bedroom were not working at all with her husband. Yep. Your quote, dad.

Dax Shepard
Maybe he and Leonard were more. We don't know. There's a few. She couldn't get pregnant. He couldn't get her pregnant.

Suzanne
She went to the doctor, and she's like, I really want to have babies. So he's like, okay, well, we have this cutting edge new process. Yes, yes. If you want to get pregnant, come back on Tuesday. So, on Tuesday, he entered the exam room with a vial of semen, a medical grade turkey baster, and proceeded with what we now call artificial insemination.

She got pregnant and had me. She didn't ask too many questions. She was just so happy to have me. So she went back 15 months later for another insemination. She was like, more of the same, please.

And had Lori and then, obviously, strain on the marriage. You guys were right. Walked away. And she always kind of suspected that somebody in that office, doctor Nash or one of his partners, might be our biological father. Yes.

Dax Shepard
Supplied the sample. There's been a lot of podcasts about this. Well, race to 35, we had this exact story. Yes. And there was a lot of scandal and lawsuits and people meeting each other.

Suzanne
So that's where my story continues. But this is a happy story, so we're not mad at anybody. Unlike some other people, you can see that I'm, like, a happy person. So Internet rabbit hole was entered by me. I googled Doctor Nash and only found his obituary, but then I went crazy.

I, like, found all of his partners from that time. They're all 90 plus at this point, but one of them was still alive, retired, and living in Florida, as you could expect. And I emailed him, and he agreed to talk to me, and he filled me in on the process. And it sounds like you know some of this, but I'll just give you a summary, and then I'll tell you how I met some siblings. But in 1960, in 1969, artificial insemination was brand new.

There were no sperm banks. There was no, like, donor registry, nothing. So the doctors were the sperm donors? Yes. Really quick.

Dax Shepard
Every time I've heard this story roll out on a podcast or in a documentary, I mean, it's obviously wrong in a lot of ways, but at the same time, I can wrap my head around the fact, like, this woman really wants a baby. I'm a fucking doctor. There's worse sperm donors. She wants a baby. I have sperm.

You could think it was an act of generosity. I think it's positioned a lot of times as, like, egomaniacal doctor who wants tons of replicas of themselves out there. But I don't know that that's my total conclusion on it. After learning all of this. I agree with you, and you're right.

Suzanne
There is the other side of it, too, that we've heard a lot about. There's a lawsuit in Washington right now with one of the OBS nearby, because. A lot of times they tell you it is a sperm donor. They lie, and then they just go jack off in the back. There's almost like a bag.

Dax Shepard
Yeah, there's almost a cutoff. Like, in the nineties when the infrastructure was there and blah, blah, blah. But, like, in 1969, it is a little bit different of a context. Yeah, but they needed just say, hey. Hey, this is mine.

Monica
Yeah, yeah. And then these guys probably didn't want to say, like, oh, this is mine. Cause this guy had a family at the time. Yeah. The wife would have been like, hon, you can't be impregnating all the time.

Well, then that's also why it's not great. Anyway. Okay, so go on. Okay, so I'll tell you my thing, but this is such an interesting conversation, which is why I was so happy to see this prompt, what this guy told me. Florida guy, usually the resident doctors who were in Ob Gyn.

Suzanne
So the ones that are kind of apprenticing, they weren't paid very well. They were paid, like, $35 a week for work at that time. But they could make $50 if they brought a fresh sperm sample to an office on the day an insemination was scheduled. Wow. So the attending doctors, like doctor Nash, could call up a resident and be like, hey, can you bring a sample to my office Tuesday at nine?

I have an insemination scheduled. And this is rare, but getting more and more common in New York City at that time. So some guys donated a lot, like, made a ton of extra money. And I actually met some people who all kind of traced back their dad to this one resident who was, like, prolifically donating at the time, and his fertile siblings. Wow.

And they all kind of looked alike, and they all looked like this guy, but that's not what happened with me. But some doctors donated a lot. There were a lot of babies born. There were no records. So there's a lot of half siblings walking around in New York City at that time who didn't know that they maybe were related to each other and maybe could have gotten into a relationship.

So it's a little bit gross. And that's why my mom was interrogating my boyfriend's parents. Like, just making sure. I know this would be crazy, but what if he's another one and they're about to make inbred grandchildren for me? Interesting.

Dax Shepard
I didn't figure out that piece. Well, that was kind of a stretch for her. Out of all the people in the world, these two New York babies are gonna get together. You never know. But this is her grandchild she's talking about.

Suzanne
So she's gotta be careful. So she was just making sure that I wasn't about to commit incest. But luckily, he was not a sperm donor baby. So then I joined this, like, donor sibling registry, which is this big website where turkey baster babies like me are trying to connect with each other. And the recommendation there is, like, get your DNA out there on all the websites.

So a lot of people do now. And I know you guys have talked about this, too. I sent my DNA to ancestry.com comma 23 andme to see if I had any half siblings. And I mailed my DNA, and I waited, and I, like, forgot my password, forgot to check. But then just a few years ago, I got a notification.

I matched with a half sister. Her name is Arlene. She's 16 years older than me, and she had no idea that she was conceived by insemination. She had just gotten the 23 andmeta for Christmas, and she's like, what the hell? This is increasingly common, this story.

Dax Shepard
Yeah. That means that happened for her in 1956. They were doing that. Yes. 1953.

Suzanne
Crazy, crazy time. So I talked to her. We kind of, like, put it together. We met in New York City. We went to dinner, and she was, like, nonstop talking with her hands the whole time.

Dax Shepard
You guys were similar. Yeah. And my kids were there. They're like, yeah, I think you guys are probably related. And really quickly, does that feel immediately connected?

My children have very little interaction with any of their cousins because of where we live. And my cousin Justin bring his kids over. It's undeniable. They know they're related. It's so weird, you know, it's hard.

Suzanne
To know the placebo effect mixed into here, because we kind of knew that we should be alike, but we did think we were alike. Oh, and I sent Emma a picture. Oh, great. There's more of us. So there's a little more to it.

But the thing I think that was the most alike between the two of us is that we both immediately thought that this was, like, a positive thing. She thought her dad was her dad her whole life and knew him, but for her, she was like, this is cool. I got more family. Everything is good. So the optimism, on some level, you.

Dax Shepard
Could go like, okay, once you find out that the dad wasn't your dad, somehow that would erase the fact that you had been abandoned by your father in your mind for 40 years. But that can't happen, right? You can't just, like, clean the slate of abandonment. I have been thinking about that because someone like me could grow up and think, oh, you know, this guy never even wanted to meet me. And I do remember thinking when I acted like an asshole.

Suzanne
I'm like, well, he must be an asshole. So that's, like, where I got. But I had a pretty good life, and you had. Grandpa obviously was a father figure. Yeah, I don't think I have the sad part of the story that other people in this situation might have.

I had it pretty good being raised by your grandparents. Five stars. Highly recommend. Oh, yes. I know when I'm a grandparent, I definitely want to, like, help out now as a parent, I'm like, oh, my God, how did they do this all over again?

But for the kids, it was great. I mean, I probably have some issues. I'm a little scathed, but not majorly scathed. So we looked at doctor Nash's obituary again, and he was in med school in 1953 at Columbia. That is where and when Arlene was conceived.

And then he worked at Lenox Hill Hospital. 1969, we know that's when and where I was conceived. And then the obituary was like, he had a warm smile, sparkling eyes. Everybody loved him. And we were like, oh, yeah, that's definitely our dad.

Dax Shepard
It's like a horoscope, kind of exactly. Like, oh, I'm reading into this, like, lit up a room. I'm like, oh, my God, it's totally my. So then Arlene and I went down the rabbit hole of ancestry.com, and eventually we figured out that his grandparents traced back and related to us too. So we were almost positive it was Doctor Nash.

Suzanne
So from there, my Internet stalking skills really came in handy. You know, in an obituary, there's a lot of information, and one of the things you can find out is their kids name. So he was survived by these two adult daughters in New York and, you know, listed their names and their husband's names. So then I found their wedding announcements, then I found where they worked. And then you guys, I fucking called them.

Dax Shepard
Yeah. Were you scared? I was so scared, yeah. And I actually started with an email. I'm like, I swear I'm a normal person.

Suzanne
You can google me. I'm not trying to scam you. I don't need a kidney. But I think we might be related. So, like, could we meet?

And they did not at all know that their dad was, like, donating sperm at work, but they did agree. They did, because I was like, I want to point out the context is so different with the other sister. You guys are both in search of something. These people, in a weird way, you're like, dad, why did you go? Do you know it's so only disruptive?

Nicole
Well, unless. And now you guys have a great relationship, then that is additive. But they gotta be pretty confident people and well adjusted to think this is a win for them, that their dad was out knocking women up, and then. You have all these half siblings everywhere. Yeah.

Suzanne
For Arlene, he was kind of a kid. He didn't have a wife and kids yet, but his two daughters are older than me, so I didn't know and my mom didn't know, but he knew. He was, like, a married guy giving sperm to a person at work. So it could be super awkward. But you guys, it's not.

We love each other, and Emma has the picture of the four of us. Oh, that's so sweet. So when I tell the story, I always say they sent in their cheek swabs to confirm the theory. And now I have three new sisters, and none of them is a asshole. Oh, wonderful.

Monica
I think this guy was a very generous, good person. Every sister is nice and kind and generous of spirit. And his daughters agreed. They're like, this is totally the kind of thing dad would have done. He loved people.

Suzanne
He loved babies. He was an ob gyn. He always wanted people to get what they wanted. We saw his office where he had pictures of all these babies, even though he had already passed away by the time we got to see it. So it was actually, like a really happy ending.

Monica
The only tricky thing. Well, there's a few, but the one I'm hung up on is, when did he decide he's like, just cause he thinks your mom's hot, why does he decide to donate his own sperm? Versus the residents? Yes, that's what we're saying. Well, they're not always available.

Suzanne
Maybe it was a down day. Maybe he did kind of think she was cool. Cause she was cool. She was, like, a harpist in the New York philharmonic, but they definitely didn't have sex. I don't buy that he was attracted to her.

Dax Shepard
But what I do think is possible is you're like, I'm gonna combine my sperm to create a kid. So probably I'm not giving my sperm to a junkie that comes in. Why? I do still think you'd have some bizarre, primitive notion that my offspring need to be taken care. So you would be selective a bit if you were in his situation in that moment?

Monica
Yeah. I don't know. I just think that part's interesting. Okay. I wish we could ask him.

Suzanne
Or he's like, well, the resident didn't show up. She's ovulating. Shit. I gotta get this done. But are you and your sister biological?

Lori did a DNA test too, and she and I found out that we are half sisters. And then she found her donor who was like another ob GYn, I think a resident during that time. So she didn't get the same sperm that I did, even though my mom kind of wanted that. And I think that was like, a good call by doctor Nash. Cause he didn't want to, like, have a whole family with this lady.

Nicole
Yeah. Yeah. But also this. Okay. Interesting.

Monica
Wow. Wow, wow. I know you're uncomfortable, Monica. I'm not uncomfortable. I'm just uncomfortable with the fact that your mom thought something was happening and it wasn't.

That feels unfair to me. For her. It's weird. I can't imagine this as a patient. Now there's so much more disclosure.

Suzanne
She said she didn't really ask that many questions, right? Yeah. When you want something, you're not trying to poke holes in it. You're like, I want a baby. Through hook or crook.

Dax Shepard
I'm not trying to talk myself out of it. Exactly. Like, well, I get to ask three questions. This thing, if I ask too many, I'm not gonna get what I want. Yes, that makes sense.

Yeah. This is kind of a very positive story. Other than that you thought your dad didn't care about you, that part's still probably a bit unresolved. Yeah, he was kind of painted as, like, an asshole by my grandparents. I think they probably knew what was up.

Suzanne
Cause they were like, oh, yeah, don't worry about him. We got you. My childhood was actually five stars. Well, Suzanne, this was awesome. Yeah, thanks for sharing.

Nice to meet you guys. Okay, take care. There's a lot to glean from that. You get to choose how you, of. Course, react, how you look at life.

Dax Shepard
Yeah. You're in the driver's seat. She's the hero of her story, not the victim of her story. Hi. Hello.

Where are you in the world? I am in a suburb outside of Toronto. Oh, wonderful. We are nice neighbors to the north. And you have a lot of wonderful, eclectic clothing.

Yes, you are of a vibrant aesthetic. I like bright colors. They look good on me, so I'm not gonna lie. I'm not even gonna lie. Greens and purples are my go to.

Yes. And did you grow up in that area? I did. The story takes place in this area. Oh, it does.

Christine
I haven't gone too far. I did go to school, the states, but I came back. Where? All the way to Buffalo. Oh, wow.

Dax Shepard
You were like, no, Buffalo's not for me. I loved Buffalo, but when I was in school, it was right after 911, so staying was kind of out of the question. It was kind of hard to get visas back then, so I had to come home. I got you. Okay, so your parents kept a secret from you?

Christine
They did. And this takes place here in the suburbs? Back in, like, 1988 or 89. Okay, great. Don't really know.

When I was eight or nine, Monica. Was one or two. Yep. I was coming home from school. It was a short walk, and when I turned the corner, I noticed there was police cars in the driveway.

And I was like, oh, shit, this is not good. We live in a very upscale suburb, so not what I would be expecting to come home to. And I'm panicking, like, uh oh, did something happen to one of my parents? Was their heart attack. So I run in the house immediately.

When I come in, I notice the house is a disaster. Chairs are turned over, things are askew. And I finally see my mom, and she's like, the house was broken into while we were at work. And I was like, what? This doesn't happen here.

What's going on? And she was like, go check your room and see if you're missing anything valuable. Valuable being the key word. I'm eight. Your cabbage patched up.

Yeah. So I go upstairs looking for the one key thing, saying that if it was gone, I'd be devastated, which was my raggedy and all, which I took everywhere with me. But luckily, it was there. My sister checked her stuff. All of our stuff was there.

Obviously, we didn't have anything of value for the thieves to take. So I went downstairs and we chatted, and I was like, no, no, there's nothing missing. So after we've had a couple of hours to kind of digest, with everything's going on, I was like, oh, you know, we haven't checked on our pet guinea pig. Backstory is my father never wanted dogs. Oh, my God, don't do it.

Monica
We're all thinking, but okay, let's keep hearing it. So we have guinea pigs because my father did not want a pet dog. He said it was too much work. We go look over where the cage was supposed to be, and the cage is empty. I was like, mom, what happened to Poppy?

Christine
Poppy being the name of the pet kitty pig. It had beady red eyes. That's why it got its name for Poppy. Anyways. She was like, oh, my God.

The robbers must have taken it in the robbery. And I was like, why would the robbers take a guinea pig? Okay, so you already thought this was. Well, you were suspicious from the jump. Yeah, because I was like, really?

And my mom's like, maybe they had kids that really needed a pet. And I was like, oh, okay. But I trusted my mom. Okay, really quick, Christine. I'm just imagining, like, there was a real robbery.

Dax Shepard
How quickly into this was your mom or dad like, well, look, God gave us lemons, but we've got a real opportunity here. I wonder how long into processing the fact that their house had been burglary before. They're like, fuck, we could get rid. Of this skinny pig right now. I think the whole thing.

Or you think a different thing? I think the whole thing. Do you think even the rod? Yes, that's the frog. All right, let's continue.

I love the idea, though, of them like a rock walking through all the house. Like, are your jewels here? No, they're gone. Oh, my God. Okay, my tools are still here.

And then, like, you get in the kitchen, like, oh, well, this is very upsetting. They hired the ambulance guy, and then they. Okay, okay. Go on, go on, please. So through high school, through university, I would tell the story.

Christine
I'm like, you would never believe our house was broken into, which was first a weird thing for the area, but I was like, they stole our guinea pig. And my sister and I would repeat this story to people, and there were times when I was in high school, and people would be like, there's no way they stole your guinea pig. And it'd be like, ask my mom. And my mom would back up my story that the guinea pig was stolen. I was like, see?

And people like, that's just so weird. And I was like, well, if my mom's still validating my story, it has to be true. So come to, like, when I'm 30 and I'm retelling the story at our cottage with a group of five of my girlfriends, and my mom's sitting there. Listening, and she's like, chris, really quick, are we drinking? Is mom tipsy?

She could have been. Who knows? We're always drinking at the cottage. Sure. Of course.

Dax Shepard
That's why you build a cottage for no other reason. So she's like, Chris, I really, really should tell you something. And I was like, what? She's like, the guinea pig what wasn't stolen in the robbery. It died in the commission of that crime.

Suzanne
Oh. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? She's like, yeah. When I came home, the cage was knocked over, and I guess it had gotten out. But then it was laying dead in the hallway when she came home.

Monica
Oh, no, that's much sweeter of your. Although now we're already on a foundation of deception. And is this part two of the story? She's like, well, she's no longer buying this. How do we.

Christine
She tells me this, and then one of my friends who just happened to have my mom as a professor in college, it was a random fact. I met her after the fact, and then she saw my mom when we came up to the college. She's like, hey, wait, you were my professor? Oh, my God. Okay.

And she's like, this story sounded familiar. And I was like, what do you mean, this story sounds familiar? I'm just learning this. And she's like, your mom. My mom used this story as an example in her organizational behavior class on decision making.

I actually got it from my mom because I was like, I'm sorry. You use this as an example of a moral dilemma, a situation where a person is required to make a difficult choice. The example involves whether you lie to your children to minimize the trauma of a break in and tell them their guinea pig was stolen versus die, or tell them the truth and hope they. They can cope with the news. So, basically, my mom had decided in that moment that she'd rather not have us have two traumas in the day.

Just a singular trauma. So she lied to us for almost 30 years. Okay. Trying to protect them makes sense. And she probably thought you were eight.

Monica
You'd forget about that. And then apparently, you've been talking about it for 30 years. She knew I was still talking about it in high school. Well, so is she. She's teaching a class on it.

Dax Shepard
I mean, everyone's kind of can't move. On to further that. She was like, I would tell my class that if you ever saw children, please don't tell them this story. Oh, my God. This is incredible.

It is. Wait. I am sad, though, that the whole robbery wasn't made up. I wanted the dad mostly to go like, you know, we've got a golden opportunity here to get rid of this. That would be really bad.

But that's what happened. Remember that? The cat? The cat, yeah. Yeah.

Monica
We've now had two armchair anonymous stories that are siblings that just happen to be, like, too random. And the dad is a real hoot in both of these stories. If that was your dad, it would have been my story where they just made up this entire robbery because the guinea pig got out and they didn't want it to be. And you went to there, like, I got you. It didn't want it to be their fault, so it was like, sorry, there was a robbery, and it was robbery.

It was stolen. Yeah. Okay, okay. No, the robbery really happened. Unfortunately, there was a murder.

Christine
There was a murder. I don't know, maybe it died just in complete shock of what was transpiring in the house. It just was crazy. And it was the eighties, so I'm not really sure what they could have stolen. Cause we had one of those really large, like, the tv was a piece of furniture.

It wasn't something you could just haul. Out when you're telling the story. I'm remembering when we came home and our house was robbed, and it was my mom and my brother and I. Yeah. And they stole, like, the two jam boxes we had gotten for Christmas from my grandpa.

Dax Shepard
They got nothing. Oh, wow, that was great. That was. That was. I really enjoyed that.

Christine
Thank you for this experience. It's crazy. I am now the coolest aunt. Apparently, that's what my niece and nephew have told me. So I wanted to shout out to my niece and nephew, Hunter in Scarlet.

Dax Shepard
Oh, what's up, coolest aunt in the world? World. I'm a cool Stan because one, I was on the podcast, and two, I work for a company that makes the canadian version of lunchables. Oh, that is really cool. Very cool.

Monica
Wow. Yeah, what a life. Well, Christine, that was a humdinger. Yes. Thank you so much for that.

Dax Shepard
Gave me a lot of giggles. Thank you for having me. Yes, our pleasure. All right, take care. Bye.

Monica
What a hoot. Oh, man, it's so funny. You and I came to such different. Yeah. Both nefarious.

Dax Shepard
No. You immediately thought it just died. No, I thought the parents accidentally let it out of the house. Okay, so they didn't want to take the trash. Yeah, and they thought the kids would hate them, so they created a robbery and hired a police officer.

Yeah, I thought they were just like, this thing stinks. I'm so sick of this thing. We've been given an opportunity to get rid of them. You wouldn't really take an opportunity. I would never kill my kid's pet.

Monica
Exactly. Most people wouldn't. But I'm a very ethical person. As you know it trend really high on the scale.

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Christine
Here'S Dwayne. Dwayne Johnson. Wouldn't that be great? We've said that before, I guess just a shit talk. Your Jim.

Dax Shepard
Yeah. Hi, Dwayne. Good to see you both. Yes, it's Dwayne. Yeah, it is.

Dwayne
Yeah. And where are you? I'm in Burlington, Ontario, which is about 40 minutes west of Toronto. Yeah. This is gonna blow your mind.

Dax Shepard
Or maybe it won't. We just talked to Christine in the exact same spot. We had no canadian callers. Yeah. Suburb of Toronto.

And now back to back. That's funny. Maybe it could be a meet. Oh, this is what we could do. Are you married?

With our very small sample set, yeah. Married canadian parents are deceptive. Let's proclaim that. Okay. The Canadians, as nice as they are and as friendly and plight, they lie to their kids.

Dwayne
Yeah. And this one's a weird one. Oh, good. So we had a cottage when I was growing up, and it's about 3 hours north of Toronto. We were on this really small lake, really, really remote.

I had lots of great memories there growing up. Like, we water skied, tubed, all that sort of stuff there. Lake life's the best life period, right? It's number one. Yeah.

We were single income family, so, you know, we didn't take, like, big trips anywhere. We had the cottage. We shared it with my grandfather. That was, like, every summer was going up. So fast forward to maybe ten.

So I was around 30 at the time, and I found out that the reason that we bought into the cottage was because someone was murdered there. Oh, wow. Wait. What? We need more to eat.

Dax Shepard
Well, we just ended it there, like. Oh, my God. Thank you, Dwayne. Have a great day. Okay.

Monica
What? The cottage was originally purchased. It was my grandfather. He was a policeman. It was another person, policeman and a real estate agent.

Dwayne
And her name was Maureen. And from the time that I was born, it was only my parents and my grandfather that I knew owned the cottage. And at some point there, I found out that there had been a third owner before. My parents just kind of said, yeah, somebody else used to own it. We bought their share, and that was kind of the end of it.

And then I find out that the woman who had originally found it, which was Maureen, she was the agent, she had gone up there with her boyfriend. They had been drinking. Apparently they got into an argument, and he murdered her with a rock. Oh, my God. Very rudimentary crime of passion.

Dax Shepard
Very primitive. Ooh. Crimes of passion for a prompt. Okay, so they already all owned it at that time. Yeah.

Suzanne
Ooh. Ooh. Okay. Okay. So my parents didn't own it at that point.

Dwayne
It was just my grandfather and the other two there. My parents had gone up there before. My dad's pretty handy, so I guess he had done some work at the cottage, I guess the rock that they used on the door to sort of prop it open there. He had walked past that I don't know how many times that wound up being the murder weapon. So it was something in his periphery all the time.

Dax Shepard
Jeez, so she was killed in the cottage? Yeah. So I think it was 1981 when she was murdered. I tried looking for any kind of news story about that, can't find any more details. But yeah, they got in the argument he murdered her with a rock.

Dwayne
Apparently he stuffed her under the bed and made a run for it. I don't know how far he made it down the road, but the car caught on fire. I think he might have set the car on fire. Police got called out there and again like, we're super, super removed. So the next sort of major city, if you know Ontario at all, it's about halfway between Huntsville and North Bay.

Police get out there, they wind up going down this very quiet road. They go door to door trying to figure out whose car that was on the road that had been set on fire. They get to the cottage there and I guess they find evidence that somebody had been murdered. There was blood spatter on one of the walls there and that's how they figured out there was a crime. Wow.

The guy wound up, he hitchhiked back 200 miles, which is back to basically where we live. It's like two towns over. But he hitchhiked back like 200 miles in the murder clothes that he had been wearing. Oh my God. Yeah.

Dax Shepard
And probably still intoxicated. Probably, yeah. Smelling like booze, covered in blood, hopping the car. Murder clothes is kind of a cool band name. Murder clothes.

That is nice. So in 1981, now this is where your guys politeness might be problematic. Cause 1981, nighttime pick up a guy, he wreaks like booze and he's got some blood. Maybe not give him a ride, but he got a ride all the way back again. It's super remote out there, so to find somebody just kind of wandering the side of the road should raise a few red flags.

Yeah, highly suspicious. So we had the murder there and I didn't know about it till maybe ten years ago. My sister had somehow found out about it and we were just kind of having a conversation one day and my mom brought it up and I said like, what are you guys talking about? And my sister's like, yeah, I knew about the murder. Did you not know about the murder?

Dwayne
No, I had no clue. Who about this? Brothers sometimes don't know. Did you feel insulted? Like, oh, they thought I couldn't handle it?

No. And I'm not even really sure why. Cause I know, like, my sister would be the one that would not be able to handle that. That would totally freak her out. I'm really not sure why they never came forward with it to me.

Dax Shepard
Yeah. Cause my previous house, I found out that the owner had been murdered in it, and it didn't bother me at all. Yeah, I hated that story. You hated it? And I was like, yeah, I don't know.

It didn't bother me. I checked to make sure that the home I purchased, no one died there. You can check that. It's public record. If you think about it, Monica, the odds of someone being murdered in any given house in LA are like, I don't know what they are.

One in a million. Now, you look at the odds of two murders happening in one house, and you're in the, like, one in 10 billion. So I almost feel safeguarded. Not me. Okay.

Monica
Ghosts and all kinds of. You're probably fine, right? Is it still in the family, the cottage? So, no, the idea there was that it was going to be an investment property. I graduated high school in 2002, so my parents sold it off.

Dwayne
And it didn't cover university, like, at all. Sure, sure. Market just wasn't what it was. My wife and I just purchased a property two lakes away from where our cottage was. I've got two boys now, and so that was my thing, was like, yeah, we're going to the cottage.

We only have a trailer on the property right now. So there's definitely no weirdness, no murder scene, nothing like that. Sure. Yeah. Do you think your parents, when they sold it, had to disclose that someone was murdered there?

Monica
I think you might have to. What I think might have happened is Maureen was the previous owner. Who was the one murdered? I don't know if you have to disclose the ad infinitum immediately. Previous?

Dwayne
Yeah. I'm not sure how many murders away before. You have to stop saying that. Yeah. After a few owners.

Monica
Okay. Wow. Yikes. The other kind of weird part about it, again, I didn't know this growing up, and this one probably makes a little bit more sense because my dad and my grandfather were both police officers. Some of the furnishings and some of the finishing touches in the cottage itself came from crime scenes.

Dax Shepard
Oh. Oh. Oh, my God. One of the pieces of furniture we had, it was a really long table. It was probably like a seven, eight foot long table, just a sort of plain piece of wood, and it had, like, a long shelf underneath, and it was just an odd design.

Dwayne
It wasn't made in a store or anything like that. Well, I found out that the table there was actually a massage table from one of those, like, illegal Rubin tugs. Sure, sure. Oh, my God. I want to hang with your dad and your grandpa.

Monica
They brought this to the a house to eat off of. Well, that's the thing. Like, we never ate off it. We had a separate table. They only jacked off on it.

Dax Shepard
Monica. Jesus.

Dwayne
So the massage table was just one sitting at the side there. And then a lot of the paneling that was inside was the paneling that they had used for walls in this illegal massage parlor. Oh, my God. They just kind of looted this. Yeah, I was going through old videos trying to see if I could find, like, a clear shot of the table, and I couldn't find anything.

But the best idea had was there's video of my sister coloring this nice, innocent picture of the family at this table where you're right. Like, I'm sure something like that happens. Yeah, lots more than that happened on that. There's a house of horrors, this cottage. Yeah.

Monica
I hate this cottage, but it's fun. Wow. All right, Dwayne, that was delicious. That was great. Yeah.

Dax Shepard
Appreciate it, big time. Yeah. Thanks for chatting with us. Yeah, no, I want to thank you guys, because my wife and I were huge fans of the show. When we got our property up north there, we basically downloaded a whole bunch of episodes because we didn't have Internet up there.

Dwayne
We first got it, no electricity. So when we were just kind of like, okay, we're sitting in the dark here. We'd listen to armchair. Oh, that's so fun. That is fun.

Dax Shepard
I like being associated with your, like, life in the summer. Yeah, that's cool. Well, thank you so much, Dwayne. Great meeting you. Yeah, it was great to meet you guys.

Dwayne
Thank you so much. All right, take care. Yep. They're nicer than us Canadians. They're nicer.

Monica
Justice system again? Oh, no. You're gonna climb back up on your soapbox. Yeah, sure am. Murder clothes would be screamo, for sure.

Dax Shepard
Hello, can you hear us? Yes, I can. What name would you like to go by? Okay, so I'll do Nicole. Nicole, Nicole, Nicole, Nicole.

Perfect. I know. I have to remember, too. I wrote it down. So, Nicole, where are you?

Nicole
I'm at work. I'm in the Inland Empire area. That's plenty. Enough info for me to get a vibe of where you're at. Monica, do you know about the Inland Empire?

Monica
No, I'm really bad at geography. Okay, you're fine, but I'll look at up later. You have a story about your parents keeping a secret from you? I do. Is a heavy one or a fun one?

Yeah. Should we laugh or should we cry? This one is very heavy, but I'm gonna try to make it light if possible. I went back and forth whether or not I was even gonna follow through with it, because secrets are heavy. And then I kind of felt like, now I'm telling a secret that was kept from me.

Nicole
I kind of felt like I was betraying them, but I was the one betrayed. So, you know, it's like this full circle moment. It is. And then also the only power of secrets is when they're secrets, you can release them. Yeah.

And I haven't told many people this story, so when I was thinking about it, I was like, okay, I kind of have to wrap my head around in myself, so I had to find, like, purpose in it for me, and I think I did. So this was actually a good experience. I'm glad I got this chance. Good. All right, let's hear it.

Okay. Growing up, my family was pretty typical. I would say normal, but, you know, normal is a wide road. It was my mom and dad, my older sister and myself. Some of the things that made it a little bumpy is my dad is a recovering alcoholic.

So lots of fighting, lots of addiction stuff, codependency. And then when my parents would fight, there would be some common themes, but one of them would be this person, Jack. And you're a kid. You can't really make sense of things. But I would just kind of file it away in my head.

And then one night, we were all in the car together. So we're just stuck in this fight, hearing it. And my dad was just like, that's it. I'm gonna tell them. Girls.

I had a son before I met your mom, and his name is Jack and he's your brother, and she would never let me tell you. And we're just kind of like, what? Yeah, right? I'm like nine or ten. So I file it away.

And then the next day, I asked my mom what was he talking about? And she said, oh, you know how your dad is. He doesn't know what he's talking about. Oh, boy. He makes stuff up.

And he thinks maybe he got some person pregnant when he was younger, but don't worry about it. So then I'm even more confused, but just kind of learned. Like, okay, I don't think talk about this. So then as I get older, I do some investigative stuff. He had one of those big honkin next telephones for work.

Dax Shepard
Sure. So I would go through it and look at his texts every now and then, and it would be from this person, Jack. And it would say, like, happy birthday, dad. Happy Father's day, pops. And I was like, maybe it's like someone from work.

Nicole
And that's how they talk to each other because I can't make sense of it. But I'm filing it, really, nothing else until it's 2018 and I'm 25 years old. I had just graduated. I'm a therapist. I'm practicing.

I'm working with teens, like, at risk youth that have problems with their families. So I'm doing family therapy. And then I started thinking, I wonder if I'm Google able. So I google my name because I'm like, I wonder what these teens would see if they google me, right? But I have a very common name, so it was like a very niche search.

Like, only I would be able to find myself. So I'm on Google, and I'm on that page where it shows your addresses, your phone numbers, and possible relatives. And then the first name that pops up is Jack. No way. And so it's like, jack, and we have the same last name.

And then my dad, my sister, this is now bringing back some of those dots from when I was younger. I do a deep dive, and I'm like, what can I find on this person? And then as I'm googling, there's, like, this one video that pops up. It was, like, at the top of the search for history, and I click on it, and it's just, like this compilation of pictures of this guy. And so as I'm looking at them, it was so shocking because I'm seeing a version of my dad, and I look a lot like my dad.

So I'm seeing similarities to myself. And it's, like, pictures of him and his friends. And then there's this picture of a little boy with, like, his arm around my dad. This picture is kind of, like, etched in my mind. And then I just, like, lost it.

And I'm, like, sobbing because all this stuff is not making sense. And then there's pictures of him, my dad and my grandma, and then him with my car, cousins. And age wise, really quick, are you able to tell from these pictures whether Jack is older or younger than you? Yeah, he's older. He's like a 30 year old man that I'm looking at.

And I'm mid twenties, but, like, late thirties, I would say. And so I click out of the video, because I'm like, what is this? And then the heading of it is like, rest in peace, jack. Oh, no. Do I have a brother?

Did he pass away, like, a lot of information all at once? It's, like, 09:00 p.m. so just naturally, I just jump in my car, and I drive to my parents house, because, like, I need to know now. And so I get to their house, I throw open the door, and I'm just, like, sobbing. And my mom's like, what happened?

Did you crash? Because that's what she always thinks. Yeah, like, I crashed, and then I drove 30 minutes, and then I just say, who's Jack? And my dad's head kind of drops, and his shoulders drop, and he's just like, oh, how do you know? And I'm just like, who is he?

And he says, he was my son, but he passed away last year. Oh, my lord. And so he takes me outside, and he tells me the whole story. And my dad is very larger than life. Lots of emotions.

Even if he tells, like, some neighbor's story, he's like, can you believe it? And in this moment, he was so calm. In our therapy world, we would say he was, like, intellectualizing, you know, like, almost telling a story, like, as if it was. Was the news. Like, okay, well, when I was about 19, I was dating someone, and she got pregnant.

And then we had Jack, and I met your mom, and we got married, and she knew him and loved him, and everything was okay. But then we had you two, and things kind of changed for her. She said, I don't want them to know him. Wow. Wow, wow.

Dax Shepard
Interesting decision. Yes. So then I'm kind of sitting with it at the same time. Just, like, my heart is breaking for my dad. Like, this is explaining so many things.

Nicole
Always thinking of him as, like, so angry, and, wow, does he always need all these things? Because he was addicted to, like, lots of stuff. Over time, he would even be addicted to, like, that nose stuff, the Afrin. Oh, sure. Anything that you could overuse.

Then he's saying, like, I kept in touch with him. They actually lived not too far from us. My dad's telling me Jack also struggled with addiction and drinking. And so he had a family of his own. But he called him one night in 2017, and he was, like, drinking, and he was out, out of state.

He was really upset. And my dad was just like, you need to stop drinking. Put your phone away, and just, like, go to sleep. Because my dad had been in the AA for, like, years. He's been through this.

He just was like, you have to keep yourself away from yourself. Like, you're gonna cause problems. Don't make any decisions. So he tells him he will. And then my dad said he couldn't sleep because he just knew, like, something was gonna happen.

And then he didn't hear from him, and he passed away. Gosh, that's so sad. Heartbreaking. The most shocking thing is he's just calmer than I am. I'm, like, crying the whole time.

And then he said, and then your mom organized everything. She put the whole funeral together, and he's like, I was there. Your grandma, your aunts, your uncles, your cousins, and your sister. And I'm like, what? My sister?

Dax Shepard
Oh, I would have. I would have been so. I would have felt very betrayed by that part. Yeah, me too. Yeah.

Nicole
So that's when it kind of became a whole other level of confusion and just, like, more hurt. Like, what is wrong with me that I can't know anything? Yeah. Why am I the only person this is being kept from? And then I said, how could you tell her?

How did she know? And he's like, I didn't tell her. She found out on her own. Like, how you're finding out. You have to talk to her about that.

But she knew him, and she had, like, her own experience with him. That feels so unfair to you that you didn't get the opportunity to know him. No, I agree. So I finished my conversation with him, like, knowing there's a lot more to come. This was just kind of scratching the surface.

I don't talk to my mom because, like, I can't go there right now. And I leave, and then I drive to my sister's house, and I'm just like, I found out about Jack, and she's screaming. This is the part that, when I think about it, cracks me up. She's screaming, no. Oh, no.

Suzanne
Oh, my God. Is she the older sister? Mm hmm. She's four years old and trying to. Protect somehow in some parental role with you as well, for sure.

Nicole
We've never been close. She's always telling me, like, what to do and worried about me. And then she tells me her story. She's like, I didn't know. I was, like, 20 or 21.

And I had this friend, and he worked with Jack, like, in another city. This is all very crazy how it came up. Yeah, I guess you guys would say weirdos. That's when I realized he always knew about us, but we didn't know him. My dad would show him pictures of us and tell him, like, stories and how we were doing.

And so when his friend said, like, oh, I'm gonna go meet up with so and so, they have the same luck name. And he's like, I think that's my sister. And so then he tells my sister, the friend, like, I want to introduce you to someone. And he introduces her to him. Wow.

So she's 21, so I'm, like, starting college at this time. So I think every time it came up, it was just like, don't bother Nicole. Like, she has finals. And so I think my sister basically did the same thing I did that night. Go to my parents.

Like, what is wrong with you? How did you not tell me this? And was like, I need to tell Nicole. And my mom told her, if you tell her, I'll never speak to you again. She won't speak to you either.

This is a woman that kept a secret for 20 years. It's her whole identity sort of wrapped up in this, too. The foundation is already shaky, and she's worried it's gonna get, like, pulled out. Yeah, but I'm, like, an adult. Yeah.

Dax Shepard
It's become malignant, is what I know. It has. It has. It got away from her? Yeah.

Nicole
Like, she was gonna go to the grave with this secret that, like, wasn't even hers, but she was kind of the one directing it. And so my sister says she was talking to him. Like, it would go out a lot because they had mutual friends, and then over time, he would just get really angry and upset with her, because it was just like, I just wanted to meet her. Why can't I meet Nicole? And she was just like, I'm in this pickle.

And I remember that time she, like, moved out. We didn't hear from her for, like, months, and now it's, like, making sense. And did you detect when he had passed, that your father's demeanor was curious or that your sisters was like, they were dealing with a death but not telling you? Was there anything perceptible about that? See, that's the really messed up part, is I was living with them at the time because I had graduated and I was going to grad school, so I was living with my parents, and I did not know any of it.

Monica
Oh, my God. It's very harmful. I would imagine. It's making you question what you're missing. What's reality, for sure?

Nicole
It's pretty layered. I remember that one day they were dressed up, and they were like, we're going to a funeral. It's like a family friend's funeral. And I was just kind of like, okay. And now I'm thinking back, like, was that the day that he's going to his son's funeral?

So then my sister's telling me that when she told him, like, I can't introduce you to her, that he kind of had to distance himself because he was so upset. You know, like, what's wrong with me? Right. Well, his dad already kind of picked another family, and now he's what's so embarrassing or such a blessing. He's also abandoned.

Monica
Cause he was part of that family for a second, and then, like, you can't be here. It's pretty awful. So, anyway, my sister is telling me, like, she didn't really talk to him, but they kept in touch, but he was just kind of going down a bad path. And then, no, I don't think anyone expected him to, like, pass away. I think they thought, in time, you'll meet him.

Dax Shepard
Right, right. I was just gonna ask about your mom. I mean, I'm, like, dying to know how this has resolved with her, if it has, if you've talked to her about it. Yeah. My mom is an interesting person in and of herself.

Nicole
That's why I was conflicted on sharing, because there's really no resolution. You know, it's not like, oh, I met him, and then now we're all a big family, like he said. And when I spoke to my mom, obviously she had her reasons, too, but she's, like, a very defensive person. She gets very anxious. So over time, I just have a lot of empathy for them, to be these young people, and for whatever reason, to have made these decisions, I can't imagine what was going on for them.

I know for my dad, he still says my mom is the reason he's still alive. You know, like, he gives her a lot of that credit. So I think when he's faced with that ultimatum, it's kind of like, if I lose the girl, than her, like, I'll probably die. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. That's always been his logic.

Dax Shepard
And then for her, if we can be compassionate to her. To her, she's a codependent. Linked her cart to a very unpredictable, unstable man that has this other family, and she has now got two children, and she is not going to let this chaos take down this thing that she has. And for whatever weird reason, she obviously evaluated Jack being something that was threatening somehow, even though it doesn't make sense to me or you, I have to imagine she just thought that was somehow a threat to the stability of you for as a family unit, which I don't agree with, but I have to. Imagine, and this is a little bit less compassionate, but I just think for a lot of co dependence, there's also a control in being the person who is the one doing the pills is the one doing it all.

Monica
There's a control in a weird. It's hard to say sad. It's their addiction. Exactly. It's their own addiction.

So I'm sure that was at play here. And if adding another person in the. Mix makes it unconscious. Yes, for sure. I mean, this was all my logic, too.

Nicole
This was how I was trying to make sense of it in my head. And knowing her, too. She told me, Jack's mom, she had known her, and there's just a lot of chaos, and she thought it could pose a threat or be kind of dangerous. And they all died really young. So I think she just didn't want that for us.

I think she was hoping my dad would stay sober and we wouldn't have to be touched by, like, addiction. And somehow that kid in the ex relationship represented the version of him she was trying to make sure never returned. Yeah. I mean, look, no one's in an ideal situation making bad decisions. They're in a rough, bad situation making bad, rough decisions.

I struggled. I haven't gone to therapy until this year. It was the first time I started therapy. Cause I think I just couldn't open that can of worms. I was just like, there's so much.

And then on top of it, like, my own stuff now, but I have a child now, and I'm like, I have to do this work because I just feel like we're destined to repeat it. Yeah. You can't break a cycle unless you're breaking the cycle. When I did the work, it all was so overwhelming. Like, it's so intense.

The therapy program I was a part of, you had to do a lot of work on yourself and kind of like, what brings you to this field? And I was like, I don't really know my childhood, even though I know, like, it had all of these ups and downs and all of this chaotic stuff. I guess the purpose of why I thought this could be important to share my story is all the families I worked with, there was always some disconnection, and a lot of the time, it was secrets. I would say majority of the kids I worked with, a common thing was they were raised by someone who they thought was their biological dad. And then they found out it wasn't really.

Oh, it's so common, you know, another guy came in the picture, and the kid was a baby, and they didn't know. But then later, like, a drunk uncle or a mean older sibling is like, that's not even your dad, bro. And it's usually around, like, teenage years, like, you know, middle school. And the betrayal, it just severed the relationship. And then a lot of the times these kids went to, like, gangs or drugs because they needed to find a family.

Acceptance that they felt like they had lost. My supervisor would always say, I think this comes from aa, too. Like, secrets keep us sick. You're only as sick as your secrets, they say. I mean, the effort they had to go through to keep this from me.

Dax Shepard
I know. That's the thing. It's exhausting maintaining all these. Your memory's not even good enough. Your memory can memorize the real shit, but it has a hard time remembering all the different lies.

Nicole
And so I had to do a lot of that work, just, like, understanding what a healthy relationship is. Sure. Yeah. Well, Nicole, that's a heartbreaking one, but I really appreciate hearing it. It's so common to grow up in that kind of web of deception and trying to figure out what's real and what's not real and makes you question your own, if not sanity, just your ability to see what's going on.

Dax Shepard
And that's a very scary position to be in where, like, I'm not certain what's real. We're all trying to construct some version of reality we can really believe in and maybe predict. And then the absence of that is very scary, for sure. Since then, a lot of other secrets have come out, too. Like, I think everyone just feels kind of relief now.

Nicole
Everything can just slowly come out. What I will say. And this is kind of the end when everyone says, like, thank you so much for changing my life. Right? But I think I started listening to you guys around that same time.

I do do a lot of self reflection, and I'm always mentioning armchair expert, like, in my therapy sessions with families, because I learned so much from you guys. And I did ask myself, like, what is it that I'm so drawn to the show? And there's just this familiarity for me? And then I realized, Dax, you remind me so much of my dad. Like, he's so, like, larger than life and talks to everyone and always has so many stories, and he knows so much.

Probably these past eight years now, that light he had has kind of, like, dimmed. Mmm. That's heartbreaking. So when I listen to you, I feel like I get, like, a piece of it back, you know? Yeah.

Dax Shepard
Like a flashback. Oh, us addicts. I apologize on behalf of all of us fucking addicts. No, I mean, I found an addict myself, and then now we're both sober together. Oh, that's great.

Well, I really enjoy meeting you. Thank you so much for telling us that story. I know that's not an easy one. I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you so much.

Nicole
It's so nice to. We need both of you. All right, be well and take all that bad stuff and be able to connect with other people and help them. I think that's the big silver lining of all of it. That's what I tried to do.

Dax Shepard
All right, take care. Oh, that's a sad one. That's a sad one. Sad for everyone. Everyone lost in that.

I know. That's the thing. From my point of view, it's easy to villainize the mom, but I can't imagine the mom was enjoying any of that ride either. Well, parents have secrets, too, and that's what we know. Kids have secrets.

Monica
Kids have secrets. Parents have secrets. Grandparents have secrets. Babies have secrets. Do you think babies have secrets?

Dax Shepard
They might be the only people that don't have secrets. No, they have secrets. They can't hide their secrets. They poop their pants, and you find out they can't hide it. Yeah, you're right.

What if you went to change your baby's diaper and you saw that it was stained with poop, but there was no poop in there. They had, like, got embarrassed and then cleaned it all out and put it back on? I feel like my baby would do that. I'm so scared of being embarrassed. I love you.

Dwayne
Do you want to sing a tune or something? We know a theme song. Oh, okay, great. We don't have a theme song for this new show, so here I go, go, go. We're gonna ask some random questions, and with the help of arm cherries, we'll get some suggestions.

Dax Shepard
Look. On the fly, rhyme, dish. On the fire, rhyme, dish. Enjoy.

Armchair Anonymous: Parent's Secret

Primary Topic

Episode Summary

Main Takeaways

Episode Chapters

1: Introduction

2: The First Reveal

3: The Impact of Secrets

4: Personal Stories

5: Coping and Conclusions

Actionable Advice

About This Episode

People

Content Warnings:

Transcript