Julia Gets Wise with Vera Wang

This episode is an engaging dialogue between Julia Louis-Dreyfus and fashion icon Vera Wang, discussing the intricacies of fashion design, personal history, and professional development.

1. Fashion is deeply personal and can be a powerful expression of individuality.
2. Comfort and self-expression are paramount in design, according to Vera Wang.
3. Personal experiences and backgrounds significantly influence one's career and creative output.
4. The challenges of balancing professional success with personal life are a common theme for many successful individuals.
5. Persistence and adaptability are crucial in navigating career transitions and personal challenges.

1: Opening Reflections

Julia Louis-Dreyfus opens the episode by reflecting on the importance of learning from experienced women, announcing new merchandise inspired by the show. Julia Louis-Dreyfus: "We really do have a lot to learn from the glorious older women in our lives."

2: Introducing Vera Wang

Julia introduces Vera Wang, touching on her transition from skating to fashion and highlighting her influence on the bridal wear industry. Julia Louis-Dreyfus: "Oh, my God, what a thrill, making people feel beautiful. It is an art."

3: Deep Dive into Design

Vera discusses her design process, her take on modern fashion, and how she tailors her approach to fit the personality of her clients. Vera Wang: "I think a woman never looks more beautiful or more confident than when she's comfortable."

4: The Challenges of Fame and Fashion

They explore the pressures of fashion, particularly in high-stakes settings like red carpets, and the personal touches that make significant impacts. Vera Wang: "It really depends on the artist or the actor. It just really depends."

5: Concluding Thoughts

The episode wraps up with reflections on personal growth, fashion's role in life's rituals, and a teaser for future insightful episodes. Julia Louis-Dreyfus: "Fashion is for, to just carry us away."

1. Embrace Individuality in Fashion: Consider how your clothing choices reflect your personality and make you feel confident and comfortable.
2. Learn from Life's Challenges: Reflect on how personal challenges have shaped your decisions and use these insights to guide future actions.
3. Balance Professional and Personal Life: Find strategies to manage work-life balance effectively, especially when facing personal challenges.
4. Explore Creative Outlets: Engage with creative activities that connect with your personal interests and professional skills.
5. Seek Growth Through Mentorship: Learn from those with more experience and different perspectives to enhance personal and professional growth.

This week on Wiser Than Me, Julia connects with 74-year-old fashion designer and visionary entrepreneur Vera Wang. Get ready for some serious insight. Vera shares wisdom on good sleep, redefining herself after marriage, and her perspective on aging in the fashion industry. Plus, Julia and her mom, Judy, delve into the influence of mothers' style on their children and reminisce about their all-time favorite outfits.

Follow Wiser Than Me on Instagram and TikTok @wiserthanme and on Facebook at facebook.com/wiserthanmepodcast.

Keep up with Vera Wang @verawang on Instagram.

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Maker’s Mark is a proud sponsor of Wiser Than Me. Celebrate the wise women in your life by creating a custom, personalized label from artist Gayle Kabaker today at www.makersmark.com/personalize.

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This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/wiser for 10% off your first month.

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People

Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Vera Wang

Guest Name(s):

Vera Wang

Content Warnings:

None

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
We are so excited to be back for a second season of wiser than me. I have been, and I really do mean this, truly blown away by the support that this show has received. We really do have a lot to learn from the glorious older women in our lives. And to celebrate, I've got a super fun announcement to share with you. Wiser than me now has its very own merch.

Yeah, merch. Our team has whipped up some items we think you're going to love. We're kicking off the collection with a beautiful wiser than me cross body tote bag that even has a zipper. Oh, sure, you think you've got enough tote bags, but if you get one more tote bag a wiser than me tote bag, you'll have room to buy so many more heads of organic lettuce at the farmer's market. Or to carry that second six pack of Mountain Dew from your local 711, all while brushing your teeth with both hands.

Because it's cross body, hands free, baby. What I'm saying is that this could be a life changer. And this bag is made by Bagu, so it's super high quality. And its beautiful design features some of my favorite words of wisdom from the show. Head over to wiserthemeshop.com and get two for yourself.

And then a bunch more for friends and family. And presto. Holiday shopping done early.

Vera Wang
Lemonade.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
You know, if you look at old pictures of me as a kid, you're gonna see a little girl who thinks that her white go go boots and suede fringe vest are the bomb. Or my white crocheted dress with a ribbon that my mom added to it at the Empire line. Or my blue seersucker suit that I wore when I flew on airplanes. Cause that's what people used to do. They would dress up when they.

When on airplanes. I remember exactly what it felt like to wear those clothes. They made me feel exceptional dressing up. Oh, man. How I loved it.

And how I still do. The ultimate real life dress up has got to be the wedding gown, right? This may be low key. One of the best things about legalized gay marriage, because now everyone's in on it. It's dress ups.

It's playing princess. I got married in 1987. I was a child bride, obviously. I was actually kind of young, and my wedding dress was very Lady Di inspired. I wasn't a big lady Di person or anything, but her wedding dress kicked ass.

It had a room with a view vibe. And I was just so crazy about that movie. Lady Di's dress had these poofy sleeves with two layers of lace that came off the cuff. And I totally stole that from my dress, which was a sort of study of everything awful in the eighties. Well, I mean, that's not fair.

It was fine, but it was so eighties. That's one of the great things about clothes, right? They identify an era. Those clothes that I love so much as a kid. There is no question that that's the sixties and seventies.

Just look back through history, across the globe, across cultures. And the clothes that people wear. They say so much. They absolutely tell the story of the time. Lincoln's hat, Queen Elizabeth's big lacing around her neck, Cher's tummy, prince's purple, everything.

It's time travel. It's all a pageant. It's just Cinderella at the ball, right? And that's how I felt at my wedding. I was Cinderella at the ball.

And so maybe I'm a tiny bit embarrassed when I look at that dress now, but it was a statement of a particular moment. The huge sleeves, sweetheart neckline, the fabric flowered wreath in my hair. I'm pretty sure Brad wore a suit. Anyways, man, it was romantic. And I was getting married.

And for that, okay, I admit it. It was perfect. Oh, and, okay. And you know what I did? I had this tiny little dolphin that was hand carved out of stone.

Sort of a charm, like a little talisman. And I had them sew it into my dress. Cause I thought it was a good symbol of joy. You know, dolphins are so joyful. Cool.

But get this. I told them not to tell me where they sewed it. And I still don't know where it is in the dress, which I think is kind of fabulous. It's in there somewhere. Fortune's whisper.

Sewn in with lucky threads of grace. Now that I think of it, clothes wise, our wedding was really, honestly, it was a hell of a production. I had a reasonable number of bridesmaids. Five and God, the bridesmaids dresses, they were fantastic. They were drop waisted, and they were a heavy linen.

And a very particular green, a celadon green. It's a color straight out of shabby chic. And Laura Ashley and ladies and gentlemen, that green does not exist in this century. But they were gorgeous. My friend Rosemary Warren made them.

And she is the most whimsical, lovely artist. And that's what these dresses wore. They had a kind of a sailor collar. Beautiful. And then after the reception, I changed out of my wedding gown into my going away dress.

That was the same pattern as the bridesmaids dresses, but it was in a kind of a cream color. And the sailor collar, oh, it was made out of this exquisite antique lace. And I had a cloche hat, for the love of God, and new flowers and, well, anyway, you get the idea. I kind of got carried away, but that's what fashion is for, to just carry us away. We dress up for our rituals.

The clothes we wear convey import, and they're a huge part of what makes an event special. And I love it, I gotta say. I mean, there's really, honestly, nothing like chic, well tailored clothes to make you feel confident and different and unique. And someone actually designs all those incredible clothes. And I have been so lucky working with insanely talented designers for red carpet looks.

So when you see what a truly gifted fashion designer does up close, oh, my God, what a thrill, making people feel beautiful. It is an art. And these designers, they are masters. They capture a feeling, a whole era, everything that leads up to that moment, they capture all of that in a single garment. Just, wow, how lucky then, that today we are talking to Vera Wang.

Hi, I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is wiser than me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me.

Okay, so what do Victoria Beckham, Jennifer Lopez, Kim and Khloe Kardashian, Ariana Grande, Issa Rae, Mariah Carey, Karina Gore, and Chelsea Clinton all have in common? Yep, their wedding gowns were all designed by today's guest.

Before she started designing wedding dresses, she was a world class figure skater, missing the 1968 Olympic team by, like, one double axel. So cow or something. And when the skating door closed, she graduated from Sarah Lawrence and quickly became the youngest editor at Vogue magazine. Anna Wintour said of her, no one at Vogue was funnier or more industrious or louder or more neurotic or more endearing. She left Vogue after 17 years to join Ralph Lauren.

And then at 40, when she was about to walk down the aisle herself, she noticed there was a lack of fashion forward looks in the bridal landscape, and she saw an opportunity. She left Ralph Lauren and became a designer in her own right, starting with a sweeping makeover of the bridal industry. In a flash, she was sitting high atop her own fashion empire. Oh, yeah. She's also designed costumes for Olympic skaters.

Michelle Kwan, Nancy Kerrigan, and for Nathan Chen, who won the gold wearing Vera Wang in 2022. Her business mind is kind of unparalleled. She's on all the Forbes magazine lists you can think of, and her work ethic, persistence and drive are legendary. She said her designs don't really have a signature look, because in life, there is no signature woman. And it's true.

Her designs are for the demure, the good girl, the dramatic, the punk rocker and the Kardashian. I am so happy to talk to this incredible businesswoman, the winner of the national medal of the Arts from President Biden, also the winner of the legion donner from the French Republic. I think that makes her a knight or something. And I went in on that action. She's a mother and a creative juggernaut who is so much wiser than me.

Vera Wang. Hi, Vera Wang. Hi, Julia. Louie. And I'm not wiser than you.

Vera Wang
Oh, my God. No, I'm intimidated. No, no, no. Not at all. Now, first of all, I've got to ask you, are you comfortable if I ask your real age, Vera?

Sure. I'm 74 years, and I'll be 75 on the 27 June this year. So I'm 74 and three quarters good, I think. And how old do you feel, do you think? Some days 200 and maybe some days 18.

No, 28 30. How's that? 28 30? You're running the gamut. Yeah, running the gamut.

It's kind of broad. You've had a huge life. I can see why that would be the case. What do you think the best thing is about being your age? That I'm here, as they say in golf metaphor, I'm on this side of the, of the lawn or the putting green or whatever.

I think that's. That's kind of a big deal. It's kind of startling because when you think you're three quarters of a century old, that's sort of like, you know, I went across the Atlantic at least six to eight times with my mother, and she never wanted to fly. And so I was on one of the sister ships of the Titanic. Get out of here.

Swear. The Mauritania only was cunard lines, not white star. So I've lived through a lot of massive changes, real changes. I mean, I feel like I'm on some massive lsd trip or something. Well, that's thrilling.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
It's a thrill. You're on a joy ride. I don't know if it's joy. I don't know if the word is joy. Well, it sounds like it to me.

I mean, you've persevered. You've had an enormous, huge amount of experience, which is why you're here today, because we're dying to talk to you about your life experience. I had the great fortune of being dressed by you both for the 2012 Emmys and the 2020 Oscars. Yep. And actually, it's kind of funny.

It's sort of a new thing. Yes. In my lifetime. Right. Yeah.

Because when it started, when I went to the Emmys for the first time in 1992, you know, you would buy your own stuff. Yeah. And then since then, the idea of somebody dressing you and connecting you with a designer, that's a business all into itself. Yeah. And this process of getting new dresses is just, it's just all new.

How does your team at Vera Wang decide who they want to dress for an award show? Red carpet? How do you come to those conclusions? I'm actually really curious to hear. I think it's, you know, sometimes kismet and sometimes we really do try to approach someone.

Vera Wang
It really depends on the artist or the actor. It just really depends. Back in the day, I know that I developed a friendship with Sharon Stone way before I ever dressed her. And we sort of mentioned, she said, if I ever go the Oscars, I'd like you to dress me. And that was right when she hit it on basic instinct and she really did call me and say, you know, I never thought it would really happen, but it really did.

And it was a very memorable moment in my career after, beyond as a designer, because here I'd had these other 20 years, you know, working in vogue and then working for Ralph Lauren, and it was pivotal. And she came out and everybody had sort of, at that point, been wearing Armani, and they were wearing a lot of, you know, very important jackets with trousers like Annette Bening and a lot of Armani's at that time, his real clients. And I put in a ball gown, which is kind of retro when you think about it back then. And, I mean, I guess it was a big boost for my Persona and for my work and for everything else in Hollywood, believe it or not, more than anywhere. Well, I mean, I think the thing that's so incredible about your designs, Vera, I mean, there's so many things that are incredible about them, but I think that they're, you make dramatic choices.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Can we pull up the dresses that I wore that you. Yes, yes, yes. I want to see those. Okay, so that was 2020. And for the people listening, we're looking at a picture of me in a blue sheath dress that Vera designed that I wore to the oscars that year.

Vera Wang
So I'm going to comment on you. Well, that's really, that's really a sheath with a modified mermaid. It's a slip dress. In essence, and I'm going to say I prepared something about you because really, in a way, you are a minimalist from what I've seen. Certainly when I remember that Narcissa dressed you for a long time, I was studying that before I ever dressed you.

And I think that at your core, you personally are a minimalist and a modernist. And there's always an intelligence to who you are as not only an actor, but as a woman. And I think one tries to respect, at least I try to respect who the woman is as a person, not simply the different roles they play, because obviously Seinfeld and fife, all those things, those amazing roles. But when you're not in those roles and you are yourself on the red carpet, I think it's nice to be able to show another dimension to who you are. Totally.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And I appreciate what you're saying. I think a minimalist looks best on me because I'm very small, I'm short, and I think a lot of poof and stuff can sometimes not work. But something tight to body, maybe less, is more. I guess in my case, every woman. Has to edit for themselves what they feel.

Vera Wang
I think a woman never looks more beautiful or more confident than when she's comfortable. And so I think comfort, both physically and also emotionally and artistically and creatively. I think that's when a woman feels true to herself, whatever that Persona is to me, that's when they look their best and feel their best. That's incredible wisdom. I couldn't.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I know you're right about that. Of course you're right about that. And so it can be anything as long as you're comfortable in it. Right? Hey, have you had collaborations?

I don't know if you want to say, but have you had collaborations that ever backfired? I have. I won't name a name, but I, too, really bad episodes. And one was with a very, very wonderful young actor. She was incredible, and I made her something, but the eye makeup that she wore to the Golden Globes, I believe, was so heavy and it started running down her face.

Vera Wang
And I was, in a way, blamed. They said, how could you do that to her? But I didn't do the makeup. I had nothing to do with it. Another one is, I won't say the name, but an ex Oscar winner.

And I dressed her for years and she wore something that I was really proud of because it took a chance. It was minimal, geometric, all those kinds of things I loved. And yet her hairdresser did something very strange, very strange. And we got really in a lot of trouble for that as well, though. We had nothing to do with it, believe it or not.

And those two times were upsetting because I felt upset. That really speaks to how important hair and makeup is. I'm sitting here with makeup for you. I caught my hair. I put makeup on for you, Vera.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I am wearing makeup for you. Look, see. And I have a great makeup person who literally, I call her, she puts my face on my face. And I never used to wear makeup. You know, very few vogue editors ever wore makeup for 21.

Well, it's a pain in the ass. Makeup is a pain in the ass. I don't. And I like naturals some days I like sometimes how I look without any somedays. Yeah, well, sometimes what I'll do, I don't wear makeup really in my everyday life, except I'll wear litter stick.

And I think that's. That can help sort of pop the face. And I have to say, just so that people know that working with you and your team is unsurpassed, I will say that. Thank you. That's such a compliment to everyone.

And I really mean it because you are so collaborative, you're so thoughtful, you're so. Well, your artistic sense is obviously sublime. And I don't know, I have a feeling of I trust you. And that's a big deal because that's a huge deal. So much is on the line.

That's the thing that I want to talk about for a second. So much is on the line for us as celebrity types walking the carpet. It is hard. It's brutal. I've had clients I've taken to the Met Gala.

Vera Wang
And that stairwell going up that first stair, I mean, they've just been intimidated by it. I can't get up those stairs. Terrifying. And also, so many things come into play when you're going to these events because the dress has to function as well. People don't realize that.

They think maybe it's just a beautiful gown, but an extremely long train when the room is mobbed is whether it's Fanny Farrell, whether it's the governor's ball, whether it's all the big dinners for, obviously, Oscars. Anytime I've worn a train, anytime everyone steps on, it's gotten ripped at the bottom. Everyone steps on. It's so irritating. It's like somebody's pulling your pigtail from the back.

And I think you don't see that. They don't understand their logistics involved as well. There's a lot to consider. There's a lot. But hey, Vera, what do you do when you have somebody who has somebody you're working with who has anxiety about their body.

I think everyone does. Everyone does, everybody has it. But like, somebody who's really anxious about what their body looks like, do you find yourself being in a position of trying to sort of talk them down? No. You know what I think it is?

I mean, I've had some experience. I won't name names, but I think I'm fairly good as a woman designer. For other women that understand women's, I feel I understand them instinctively and how they want to look. You know, for male designers, they've often said this in interviews. They approach women with muses and they have, perhaps they, they use their muse through which they can filter and receive different concepts.

But for women designers, it's so personal. Whether you're me or, you know, Donna Karan or Miutroprada or Jill Sander, we relate to our clothes on the first level we wear, we put them on physically, and that gives you an entire different take and understanding what a lining should be, what alignment shouldn't be, should it be stretch, should it not, should it provide support or should it be loose, you know, and very open? It really depends. This is amazing. You're talking about having the female perspective as a designer is.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
It's a game changer. I am, and I think that's fabulous. I mean, and it's a real window into design. I think that's fascinating. I'd never considered that.

And I think it's important to consider. Men bring certainly an abstractness to it. They're not wearing the dress, they haven't felt the dress. A different perspective completely for a woman designer. I pretty much see how woman can look.

Vera Wang
I do see that. Yeah, that's right. Don't go anywhere. There's more with Vera Wang after this short break.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
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I want to talk about how your personal style has evolved as you've aged. How has it? I'm going to say that most of my life, I've been a collector of clothing. And I have to say, putting together clothing for me on myself is how I experiment and grow as a thinker, as an artist, as a designer, I experiment on myself. But now when you say you're a collector of clothes and fashion.

Vera Wang
Not just clothes, accessories, everything. I wear jewelry, the history of jewelry. I mean, this is all true. I would like to come to your house and look in your closet. That sounds like a shit.

Anytime. Hey, listen, also, your hair is so long and jet black. It's so gorgeous. It's like, now I dye my hair. You dye your hair.

I'm 75 years old. Okay. But so here's my question. Have you ever considered going gray? I can't.

I look into it. I'll tell you what, my hair is not evenly overall, like that. Beautiful. One of my best friends in London went fully gray, but her hair is the color of it and the cut and the tech, and it's even. She doesn't have to color parts.

Mine is not. So I would look like a bad skunk. Okay, got it. Okay. So keep it as is.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Why do you think women, by the way, as they get older, why do you think women very frequently cut their hair short? What's your take on that? I think women were told that. I'm gonna be very honest. They were told, you know, if you keep it long past this, women are told.

Vera Wang
Women are told a lot of things. All. They're told too much every time, ever. And I can speak headed towards 75 that I don't believe. I believe each woman is individual.

She is herself, she is unique. And no one should say, you're not this, you're not that. I do believe also women should be their best selves. I really hope for that. But I'm also saying that everyone is unique.

How can you make a blanket statement about all people? I mean, it doesn't make any sense, particularly as an ex editor and certainly designer. I mean, 55 years this year, I will have been in fashion. 55 years. Oh, my God.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
That is crazy town. It's my 75th birthday, my 35th year owning my own company, which tried doing this for 35 years. That's all I'm going to say. And it is my 55th year in fashion, from when I started. Was your mom fashionable clothes?

Vera Wang
Horse. She was my first influence. And she always. She had so much. What did she wear?

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
What did she wear? You know, there was a store back day called Hattie Carnegie on 49th street between Madison and Fifth. There was also Sax Fifth Avenue. And in those days, you couldn't get european clothes in America. You had to go to Alexander's.

Vera Wang
If you see funny face with Audrey Hepburn and Fred Astaire, buyers went to Europe to buy the rights to copy clothing. How's that french clothing in America? Alexanders. Oh, my God. And that's where you bought the copies.

You couldn't get Saint Laurent, you couldn't get Dior, you couldn't get any of those houses. Amy. And did your mother wear those copies? My mother got some copies. But we also started going to Paris pretty much every year, every few years, so she could shop in Paris.

And she really introduced me to Yves Saint Laurent because he was a young guy, and she fell in love with it. She always admired artists. She was a real woman, truly a woman of substance. And I know that from my mother. I learned.

She used to say to me, every age, I'll never forget. And I was young. I was like, 1415, 1618. She said, every age has its unique time and beauty. Oh, that's lovely.

Not unlike Chanel. And she said, it's not the same. It never will be. But you find your way through every. She didn't say decades, but she said every stage, and I always took that with me.

And then I remember Chanel said the same thing. When you're young, you know what you look like. It's God given, but as you age, it's how you've lived. I think I might be misquoting Chanel. But I think what your mother said is so gorgeous, and it really speaks to how you've aged.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I mean, you embody that. That's so phenomenal. What a gift your mother gave you. That's so. See, I think when people say, I dress young, I think I'm really just dressing expressively as a designer, as someone's devoted 55 years of my life to dressing women.

So you're growing up in New York, you're living this fabulous life, and around this time, you also fell in love with figure skating. Yes. So remind me, how old were you when you started skating? Six. Wow.

Vera Wang
72Nd street, Central park. The sailboat pond froze over. And here's a crazy story. My father skated in China. What are the chances my dad could figure skin?

You figure eights. Really? It's insane. So he bought me skates for Christmas, took me to Central park. We lived downtown at the time.

We lived on 20th street. Brought me up, and that's whenever I go to Central Park. I remember that was when I first skated and I fell in love with it. Are you still in love with it, by the way? I'm still in love with it.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, that's nice. It's the most freedom. It's the only sport that exists where you can be an artist and an athlete, and you can skate to music, and you can have choreography, and you can have speed, and you have athleticism, and you have discipline, and you learn a metaphor for life in skating. You fall so much to learn, and that's what you take with you the rest of your life, that you can fail but pick yourself up. My life's defined by missing many goals.

Vera Wang
I've always said that I didn't make it to the Olympic team. I worked at Bogue for many years, and I never really got the top job. And someone far more, far better for it in hindsight and more qualified than me got it. But I was there for 17 years, and then I went to Ralph Lauren, where I worked. I was just honored there to be a part of his team, grateful to work for him and what I learned.

And then I went in my own company. And that has been, at times, exhilarating, but I would say 85% sweat and 15% more. So, in other words, all of those. I don't know. I don't want to call them failures.

But they're not failures, but they're limitations. The limitations or the experiences that didn't work out the way you thought they might informed how you made decisions and what you've done with your life in a very, very significant way. I know you've talked about it when you didn't make the Olympic team. That was a wicked blow. I had a nervous breakdown.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
You did? Yeah. I did drop out of college for a year. I had a breakdown. I mean, here I've been.

And what did you do? What did you do? Did you have to go into therapy for a long time? I left Sarah Lawrence. I moved to Paris.

Vera Wang
I was able to do that. Not everyone is. And it was devastating when you are so consumed by something that realize that the first 20 years of my life, I trained at Balanchine school of american ballet, and balanchine was still alive at that point with all the russian teachers. And I did it to help my skating. I did it give me more line, more connection, more extension, more movement, more knowledge and choreography and movement.

When you do that and you skate, you know, in the summer, 10 hours a day, and in the winter, that. Was what training was like, 10 hours a day. By noon, I'd already skated 5 hours, and I loved it. I was the last to get off with the Zamboni machine because I loved it. And when you fail and there's nowhere to go because I didn't really want to perform an ice shot.

I was in college. I was at Sarah Lawrence. I had a breakdown because there's nothing to fill that void, not only physically, but creatively, emotionally. And so then what? And how did you pivot out?

I'll tell you. I was in Paris, and at the time, I was dating the champion of France of figure skating, Patrick Perrault. And he educated me on french fashion. And one of his best friends was an editor, French Vogue, Natalie de la Noire. And I didn't know what an editor even was.

I mean, I saw my mother dress fashion, but I didn't think of working. Fashion never even occurred to me. And I saw what an editor was, and I creating pictures, and it was like making movies. And I said, God, I want to do that. So when I got back to New York, I went back and finished college, and I took a job in the summer sales assistant at Yves Saint Laurent on Madison at 71st.

And a lot of my life was played out in the seventies, I guess. Seventies, the streets. And when I was there, I met this woman, Frances Stein, who said, when you finish your studies, college, call me. You should come to Vogue to work. And I went to my mother.

I said, this woman said she would, and my mother read Vogue, obviously. And, yeah, I said, this woman said she'd get me a job at Vogue. And my mother said, no, she won't. She's just being polite to you. But that's my parents, they were tough.

Boy, were they tough. And they only wanted me. They wanted me to achieve. They wanted excellence. They weren't into fluff.

That was not their thing. Vera, Vera, you did it. I know. They're into excellence. You did excellence.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
You did that for them. Yeah, but after Vogue. So then you left to. And you became a design director for Ralph Lauren. Yes.

Vera Wang
I wanted to be a fashion designer also in the beginning. And my father wouldn't pay. After the paris stay, I got all into fashion. Yeah. And I said, maybe could I go back to school and learn about design?

He said, no, I'm not paying for any more tuition after Sarah Lawrence. And there was an extra year locked in there, too. He said, if you think you're so hot, go get a job in fashion. See if you even like it. Right?

And so I say to a lot of the kids that I speak to a week ago, in fact, to a high school, I say, go get a job because I'm always being asked and get paid to learn. Yeah. And see if you really like it. Because a lot of interns we've had through the years, young women and men, had said, I want to be in fashion. Some of them were the children of friends or other designers.

And sometimes they've said after their stint, I don't want to go near this. So. But that's good. I do. Right?

Or I do. And I'm wondering if it's my company that did that to them or if it was me that did it to them or whatever. But you learned that. You really see them. Do you really want to work in it, or do you want to just shop, or do you just want to photograph yourself?

I mean, it's not the same thing. No, it's not, right? That's hilarious. And we love people want to shop. We need that.

We need more of it. Bring it on for us. But you don't need them working for you necessarily. So what advice would you give to people who are listening today, who want to have a career pivot at the age of 40? Is that that old?

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
It was 40. That old. Everyone says 40 is young. 40 is young, but still, like. But I mean, I wasn't married.

Vera Wang
I didn't get married till I was 43 days shy my 40th. I made it under that 40 wire, and I got married. But I never even. I grew up in an age. We never thought about that stuff even.

Maybe I was too busy working. But I know all my mother's friends said, what's wrong with her? She can't get a husband and I end up dressing brides. I mean, you have to admit there's some irony there, right? I mean.

Oh, wait a minute. I have to show you something. So I got married in 1987, right? I got married tears after you, and I'm much older than you. Okay, but wait a minute.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
You need to look, we're gonna. I wanna show you my dress, which we'll also put up on our socials. Look at my dress, Vera. Oh my God. Yes.

Vera Wang
You look beautiful. I love the bouquet. I always tell brides, be careful, the bouquet. Because they never look at the bouquet for all the fittings. And then, you know, sometimes the party planner, the florist, who's quite detached from the bridal dress process.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes. Gives a bouquet that doesn't resonate with the dress and can really ruin all our hard work, sorry to say, but I'm being honest. But you look fabulous. The scale of. Thank you.

The thing is, is that the one thing I'll say about this dress, it was around the time lady di got it. I know. So it has. So it's sort of a nod to a lady die dress with the puffy sleeves. Yes.

It's also, I loved, loved, love the movie room with a view. Do you remember that movie, Vera? Yes, I loved it. So this was sort of in that vein of room with a view. It was corseted top and a big poufy skirt.

And my veil was, you know, went well beyond the train. No, this has stood, this has stood the test of time. I'm so happy you think this, you know, who designed it? Who? Well, I sort of made it up myself.

Well, I worked with a guy who was at the time the costume designer at SNL. Wow. Why not? Why not? I mean, it's who I knew.

I mean, I didn't know anybody. I mean, I have to say, I love your hair. There's a romance to this picture. I love your face. I love the light.

Vera Wang
Light like makeup. It's beautiful. Oh, good. I'm so happy that you like it. It's not incorporating too much stuff.

In a way, the bouquet is speaking and it brings a feeling of nature to the dress. You know what I mean? Doesn't look like it's a centerpiece for a table. I so appreciate that. And then one of my very best friends, Paula, who actually produces this podcast with me, she got married ten years later, and look at what she wore.

Vera, let me see. Ah, that's your dress. I know. Yeah, we got very minimal, there's no question. But look how that has stood the test of time.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Does it sound exquisite? Yes. But the difference between in these ten years, the reason I'm showing you these two pictures is because it speaks to your influence in this bridal industry and design in general, of course. But I mean, there it showed up in our lives and wow. Anyway, I just thought you would get a kick out of that.

Stay put. My conversation with Vera Wang continues in just a moment.

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Vera Wang
Is that correct? Yes, I do. Okay, so what is your relationship to your daughter's sense of style and oh God, rough subject. I mean, I have a daughter that loves fashion, but I guess Oprah said when I was, like, going through parenting issues, and I remember saying I'm having this particular problem with my older daughter, because she's very headstrong. And she said, don't you want her to be that way?

In a way. I said, we're not really living it every day. But anyway, so she loves fashion, but as an individualist, which I hope every woman is, she likes fashion through her own lens. Sure. It isn't my lens, but she's very accommodating.

If I say, you have to go with me to an event, you have to wear me. She thought, she will do it, and she's glad to do it. She'll do it. Well, that's respectful, right? I have another daughter that really hasn't worn me very much ever.

Ever. I'm hoping I get the wedding before I die. Both weddings, because I've done most of my friends kids weddings. But wait. Well, you will dress them for their wedding, correct.

I certainly hope I'm alive and well and can do it. I don't want to exert pressure and say, hurry up, but. Because I had none on me. But I mean, the young. My younger daughter actually works in your industry, and she's extremely conservative and quiet, and she doesn't want to ever look too sexy or anything like that.

And whatever I buy her. I just finally gave up after 15 christmases and birthdays. I said, you know what? Why don't you just choose, and I'll pay for it? That became the modus operandi for many, many years.

And when I ask a favor of her to do something with me on the red carpet, she will concede, begrudgingly. She doesn't like any of that. Got it. So I'm dealing with very different. Very different.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah. You would think that. You know, maybe it's because I design clothing for women that they both have their own take. That could very well be the case. Sure, of course.

Yeah. Makes sense. They have to find their own path, their own identity. Yeah. And I think that, for me, it sometimes is frustrating.

Vera Wang
I can't say it's a mom. It isn't. So early on, they were their own people, and I guess I love that. I guess I've got to love it. Yeah.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
No, of course you've got to love it. That's who you are. If that's what I say to women, then I have to accept it in my own home. That's exactly right. You do.

How did you balance your professional life and, say, designing the bridal line, the awards season, ready to wear, and you had these two children. How did you do it? And sick parents. Very sick parents. And sick parents.

Vera Wang
The last 13 years of each of their lives was brutal. Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. I was never going to let my parents die alone in a hospital or in a bed, and I wanted to be there as much as I can, and I was, and I have no regrets. But it did get very, very, very tough. I mean, building a company, two young children, and both parents, unfortunately, suffered a great deal.

They were not easy deaths, and they were long and drawn out. And at one point, they crossed over. So I was running at New York Presbyterian, I was running between floors because one was pulmonary and the other was a stroke. So my dad had stroked many, and my mother eventually died in pneumonia. My father died of prostate cancer, so I've become a bit of an activist for that.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And so here you are. You've got these two kids. Yes. Your parents are ill and dying, and. My husband's commuting a lot for business.

Okay, so your husband was going to London, so wasn't around. How did you hold it together? What did you do? And then how did you manage your grief? Let's.

Because I think talking about grief is always a part of these conversations. Always. How could it not be? How could it not be? Right?

Vera Wang
Life is grief. You reach a certain. Yeah, life is grief. I talk to my. I talk to a lot of the people I work with who are like my day family.

We talk. I talk to them about these things. They're much younger, but I try to say, prepare yourself. And Jane said it fonda on your podcast. That's right.

She said, yeah, this is not easy. And I just kept on. I didn't even think. You literally put yourself on the 10th burner. You run to your parents.

You run to them whenever a nurse calls or doctor calls. Then you also try to be there for your children. And I think during that period, which was very formative for them, I wasn't there enough. And I regret. I mean, I was up against moms, and I have nothing but respect for women who choose to make that their life's work.

I mean, I have so many friends that have. I mean, I couldn't do the best brown bag lunch and the best sandwiches. I couldn't do enough library book drives for the kids at school. I couldn't. I would come to the volleyball matches at the gymnastic matches, and I'd have to leave early.

And one time my daughter just started to cry. Why do you always have to leave early? And so, you know, women are not only as far as we've come, we still assume so much of the burden of life. And now that we throw work into it as another part, anyone who says it's easy is not being truthful, because something has to give. And very often it's us.

It's us that has to give. And people don't understand. We're all superwoman. I mean, it. Yeah, I mean, I, in my, and it's exhausting.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
It's exhausting. It can be exhilarating at the same time. Yes, at times, but that was a huge bounce. But for me, because I was working full time when I had both of my boys, and for me, it was a constant struggle. Me too.

Figuring out how to straddle the world of motherhood and a professional life. Yes. And when you're on top of it, juggling, making your kids feel safe and protected and offering them every opportunity you can possibly offer, because that's based parenting, is to prepare them, I think, for the world ahead as much as you can, as unpredictable as it is. Have you been able to with your girls, have you been able to sort of reconcile that deficit from their youth to a certain extent? Do you talk about it with them?

Vera Wang
I think one would have to ask them, to be perfectly honest. I really think you'd have to ask them. I think that, you know, they, you know, are certainly grown up now, and so they see things in a different perspective and, you know, they're maybe more forgiving or they maybe understand better that also. I mean, maybe people don't realize this about me. What, the perception, I have no idea.

But I had to work to provide the lifestyle that they lived. It wasn't purely an ego or my passion for women in clothing and dressing. It was also necessity. Can you talk about transitioning into being single because you got your marriage, you were married for how many years? 20 something years, I think.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right? Yeah. I'm trying to think exactly what the years were. I think maybe at that time, 22 years. Mm hmm.

And what was that transition like? Very difficult, I have to be honest, because it wasn't when we literally separated, it was prior by about five or six years. And I'm one of those people that never quits. So I'm up for therapy, whatever, clinging on with my fingernails, praying, hoping, wishing. And that's who I am.

Vera Wang
I mean, you know, I, I'm not someone who says, next or, you know, f you, and I'm out of here. You know, I don't give up. And that's, that's not always healthy. I mean, it can be very detrimental, your emotional health and your, and your psyche and your sense of yourself and your own self respect and dignity. And I think I was a clinger and I tried here.

I had kids and people say it's always about keeping the family together. It isn't. It's also about yourself, if you're honest. Of course it's about your health. Yeah.

How do you go from making a commitment to someone that you think you're going to build a life with? Yes. And then all of a sudden or some incident or some deterioration makes you realize that it isn't going to work because there's someone else involved and they may not want it. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Or they may not want it in the way you want it. Right. Yeah. Fair. Is that fair?

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, I totally get it. Everybody's a different expectation level of a marriage and, you know, marriage is hard. Yeah. Marriage can be very hard. It can be wonderful, but it can also be very difficult.

Vera Wang
Yes. Metaphor for life, you know? Yeah, no kidding. Bigger is getting up when you fall, when you're going through bad patches and then have to try somehow work through it, you know? Yeah, but it was brutal, but you got through it.

It seems I'm trying still to get through. I mean, I've dated. You have dated? Yeah. I mean, literally date.

Not what date implies. I don't know what date means anymore at my age. No, no, I have, obviously, I've tried to have relationships. It's not easy. And I think that when you're a working woman, to the extent that I am and other women are, that I know and love and respect sometimes maybe.

Maybe can be a bit intimidating. Yeah. I was about to say men can be intimidated by that. Totally get it. But do you like.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I would imagine you kind of like being single, too. That's a sense. I will say one thing. I started to be able to have. Well, awesome.

Vera Wang
An empty nester. Big difference. Then kids running around, their friends running around and running a daycare center, which I loved when I, you know, I loved it. Everybody come to my house and get Big Mac, you know, happy meals and all the mothers would be angry at me, but I thought it was a treat. You know, I'd bribe the kids, but I have to say, because I love McDonald's, but I think that one thing that's good is I began being alone to be able to give myself permission to take a little bit better care of myself, which I could never fit in.

When you're running a company and you got kids and they're growing up and going through their stages, you know, like first bomb mitzvah bat mitzvah, getting into schools, sat acts, getting tutors. I mean, all the things you have to do with kids at every stage, from potty training all the way through. All the way through. I mean, a parent doesn't end until they die. Yeah.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So taking better care of yourself, which I wanted to ask you about, so let's talk about that. I don't feel all the time. I don't feel tense. I did start to realize I was losing lung capacity and muscle strength at one point a few years ago because I've always been an athlete, but I never worked out consistently after I broke my ankle on 37. After that, I couldn't.

Vera Wang
I couldn't really do what I liked. I was a runner, and I'm very knowledgeable about the. Obviously, I dance. A balance sheet. You have to be a skate other level of knowledge.

I mean, in all fairness, truthfully. But, you know, I pride myself on trying to whenever I could with the schedules I had, I call it sporadic, working out, not consistent all the way through. But I really decided last August because I had a particularly difficult schedule last year. We had two moves, our corporate move, and then we changed stores in LA, and that was just the added cherry on top of running the company. And I made a decision for myself that I would really try to gain strength again.

So I'm happy to say I'm pushing 80 to 100 pound leg presses now and not crazy. I mean, I don't do it. You know, I don't work out in the gym 3 hours a day. I don't have time, right. But if I can fit in a 40 minutes walk, like my sister in law loves to walk, and, you know, she's more retired, she'll walk 2 hours with her, with my brother.

But I try to fit in that I make an effort to make that happen now, where other times everybody needs you. They have to talk to you at this hour. You can't do it any other time. You bend yourself in two for every other appointment, and I finally say, you know what? I'm gonna be 75.

And if I can't figure out an hour a day for myself, then there's something really wrong. So I've gained a lot of strength. Because you're talking about sleep, too. I love sleep. It's so divine.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
How much sleep do you get a night? I would say minimum eight. And on a very good day, there are days I can go ten. Is there anything that you do to ensure a good sleep? Is there any?

Vera Wang
I've changed. I have changed. I used to watch tv and someone fall asleep with the click on the tv on. Mm hmm. But now I've changed.

I turn the tv off and I read a bit. I have a friend who brings me books who actually works for me as well, and he brings me books, which I started reading again, which I kind of really love. And even though I can't get through maybe four or five, six pages, not, you know, maybe a chapter or two, depending on the book, but that helps me calm down. Yeah. Well, speaking of calming down and relaxing, I want to ask you about your vodka.

I always like to have a cocktail at night. I mean, I like to have one. Although I was having, you know, a lot of dental surgery this past year on antibiotics. So you really can't do that. I mean, the efficacy of antibiotics doesn't work with alcohol.

So I, you know, basically had to stop for quite a while. But I like a cocktail. I don't mean five, I don't mean three. I like a cocktail at night before dinner, and I just like it. Well, I would love to have sometime, we have to have a vodka cocktail together.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
That would be really nice. Yes. It'll have to be my vodka. It will have to be my vodka. Without question.

I need vodka. Sorry to push this. No, no, I'm happy to push it, and I'm happy to try it, and I can't wait to try your vodka. Okay, vera, is there something you would go back and tell yourself at 21? Yes.

Vera Wang
I would be more premeditated in how I approach life. I've been more of a person that was organic. Things came my way and not came my way that way. I mean, things occurred, and I just think, God, that seems like a good idea at the time, like the vogue drop. I didn't run into conde nast thinking, oh, I'm going to be a vogue editor.

I was, in a way, discovered, and I think, and also Richard Abaddon, I have to thank him, God rest his soul, always recommended that I become an editor because he believed in me from the time I was an assistant at Vogue. But I have to say that I have learned to be more, not even strategic, but to think in steps, which, when I was young, I didn't. At 21, didn't even occur to me. Nothing. Steps.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
That's very, very good. It didn't occur to me then. Building blocks. Totally. Is there something you're looking forward to?

Vera Wang
I'm looking forward to having more personal time. That's something I've really discovered. And I don't know if it's because of my age or because of fashion and the workload, it doesn't leave a lot of room to think about yourself. You're very busy externally trying to relate and to create and to sustain. Yeah, that's a challenge for people at any age.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, it is a challenge. It's a balance. You're talking about balance and wellness and. And all of it. And keeping your sanity.

And keeping your sanity. Holding on your sanity. Seriously. Cling to it with your heart and soul. Vera, this has been the best conversation ever.

You've been incredibly generous, and I just admire you beyond. Well, I can't articulate how much I admire you. I think you're a hugely wonderful person. Love you. Thank you very much.

Vera Wang
Thank you for including me.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, wasn't that a treat? Okay, so I'm gonna call my mom on Zoom so I can tell her all about this conversation.

Hi, mom. Hi, love. How are you? Good. How are you doing?

I'm good. So, mom, today we spoke to Vera Wang. You know what? There's just something about her clothes. Simple, and they are so classic, and they are just so, so flattering.

Yes. It's funny you say that, because she was talking a lot. She was certainly. We discussed the dresses that she's done for me, and they've been very, at her word, minimalist. Yeah.

And was. Was your. I want to talk to you about fashion for a second. Was your mother's fashion style influential to you? Because I can tell you, it was, to me, your mother.

Judith Bowles
Oh, really? Well, that's so interesting. Yes, it was. My mother, she looked wonderful, glamorous in clothing. You dressed glamorously?

And sometimes it made me feel uncomfortable. Why? I felt that she was overdoing, and I think that Grace did overdo. I mean, she wore a lot of costume jewelry. She had an old thing on.

All she'd do is take. Put a big sparkly paint on it and think that had dressed it up. I mean, she would do one thing, one dramatic thing to make it, to turn it around, and I didn't think that that worked. But when there was something that was called the new look, and the new look, I think, came out in the fifties, and that's when the sort of dirndl skirt, the big skirt, the poodle skirts came out, and the suits that had big shoulders and were long and had, like, long jackets, sort of a Joan Crawford look. It was called the new look.

And mother had some suits that were in the new look. And I remember that we went over to Culver, where my brother was, and thanksgiving, and my mother was dressed in the new look. And I remember my brother was thrilled. He just said mom looked like a moth. And she did.

She looked wonderful. And in the clothes. And she. She loved clothes. She loved them, loved them, loved them.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah. All these formals that you would keep in the closet. I think I've told you that. And she in the guest room closet. So Judy, a and I, my best friend growing up, when we would dress up, we would go and we sneak in the closet.

Judith Bowles
We would put those clothes on, put her dresses on, and we would sort of tie them up and try to make them fit. And it was just hysterical what we did. And then mother one time had, I can't remember what, whether they were her dresses or they were somebody grown up dresses, but she had them cut down to fit us. Oh, and guess what? What?

We hated them. Why? Something about you putting your mother's dress on. It was a big hanging thing, and then we'd make it fit, and we thought it looked perfect when we had arranged it. But when it was made for us, I mean, that was like, you know what your sister Lauren said one time when I took her, I just seen the Matisse cutouts.

She was ten years old, and she said, I could do that. So in other words, we could wear that. We wanted to wear the things that were out there. Up there. It's so funny, because I have the same experience with Dee Dee, my grandmother, who I called Dee Dee, your mom, because when I would stay with her, she would.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
What I loved about staying with her was that she would just let me go in her closet, and so I would spend hours in her closet trying on her shoes and her dresses and her jewelry and her purses. She had so many purses. And it's so funny, because then I remember when she died and there were all these clothes, and they didn't have the same allure as they had when I was little. But I remember thinking that she was just the glamorous of the glam. Yeah.

Judith Bowles
She had a lot of that quality about her. A lot of sheen. A lot of sheen. Yeah. Right.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Mom, are there any pieces in your closet that you remember vividly as being fabulous, that you loved? And, you know, looking back on clothes? Looking back on clothes? Yeah. I tell you what I love were the poochy.

Judith Bowles
The poochie look. I knew you were going to say poochie. Yeah. I had a two piece sort of this slacks and the, you know, and the top. And I had a dress that was poochie like, which I adored.

I wore it at my 50th birthday party. Had long sleeves and it had, it was sort of had. And it had kind of a line skirt and it had, if I can see a picture of it, it had some geometric designs on it. And I love that. I loved it.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I love the poochie stuff that you wore. I remember the pants suit. I believe it was sleeveless. Am I remembering that it was sleeveless? Yes, exactly.

Judith Bowles
Exactly. Yes. And by the way, if you have that now, it would be still good. Talk about timeless. Oh, absolutely it would.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I wish you did have it, mommy. Why don't you have it? Well, I would wear that. Try to predict what is going to look good, you know, in 40 years. I know.

Judith Bowles
Try to predict the castle and put all those clothes in it. Just have nothing but clothes in that. Okay. Note to self, get a castle for your clothes. Yes.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Okay, mommy. Well, listen, I'm going to go, but I'm going to call you later. And thanks for talking to me about Vera Wang. Well, I am so happy to talk to you about Vera Wang, about you or any other thing. So let's do it again.

Okay. Okay. I'll see you next week. Love you. Love you.

Vera Wang
Bye bye.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
There's more wiser than me with lemonade Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content from each episode of the show. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. Make sure you're following wiser than me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok Wiserthanme, and we're on Facebook at wiserthanmepodcast. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonade Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louie Dreyfus.

This show is produced by Chrissy Peace, Jamila Zara Williams, Alex Mcoan, and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a conservative consulting producer. Rachel Neal is VP of new content and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Farber, and our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music.

Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts, and if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up.

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