Julia Gets Wise with Debbie Allen

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So in my conversation with einegarten, I talked about my grandma Didi's insanely delicious peanut butter cookies. They're very sentimental to me because it's my grandma. I still have Grandma Dee Dee's handwritten recipe on an old index card. To celebrate Mother's Day. We printed that exact card in grandma Deedee's own handwriting onto a soft cotton tea towel.

This is not your average tea towel. You can bake the cookies from the recipe printed on the towel and then clean up with the same tea towel when you're done. It's a tea towel double. It's part of our wiser than me merch collection. To check it out, head to wiserthanmeeshop.com dot lemonade.

I absolutely love to dance. It's funny because I really don't get to dance much, which is my loss. Dancing is the most joyful thing to do. Dancing and singing. Yeah, these are the most natural expressions of human joy.

Really. I mean, if there's an upside to social media, and. Okay, that's an open question, obviously, I think that it's all these videos of those little babies dancing. You know, babies sing and dance before they walk and talk. That's how primal dance is.

And then to get to see a baby dance with rhythm, give me a break. I mean, it is just the best, isn't it? I grew up going to all kinds of dance performances. My mom took us to the ballet a lot, to see the New York City ballet. Alvin Ailey Abt and I got to see some great dancers when I was little, too.

Judith Jamison and Gelsey Kirkland. And when I was little, I think this was a nutcracker. And I remember very vividly that I could not stand my seat. So I would go out into the aisle and I would dance along with the dancers on the stage. And somehow my mother allowed this.

I mean, my memory is, it just wasn't a disruption in any way. I was just contributing to the performance. I guess that's what I thought. And then decades later, when we took our boy Henry to see savvy and glover, to bring in de noise, bring in defunct, he was about four, and Henry went out into the aisle and he danced, too. So I don't know, maybe it's genetic or maybe it's just human to want to move rhythmically.

I took ballet when I was young for a bit, and the thing that I liked the most was the tutus. Because, I mean, come on, who doesn't like a tutu? But the truth is that I've always felt inside that I'm a dancer. Not trained or anything. But, you know, I just.

I have an inner confidence that I'm good. I'm a good party dancer. But I never really studied dance other than taking movement classes. Movement is actually a big part of my comedy. I love physical comedy and I incorporate physicality into my performances.

I mean, well, I mean, obviously a lot of actors do that. That is nothing new but it's something that I work on a lot. And then in 1995, might have been 96. I don't know. I have to look that up.

But one of our Seinfeld writers, Spike Farriston wrote an episode in which my character, Elaine, had to dance. And this was based on somebody that he actually knew. And I know who it is, but I'm not telling you. Anyway, this person was very respected and admired and looked up to. And then at a work party, this particular person danced.

And all of that respect and admiration instantly vanished because this person's dancing ability was so God awful. Was, like, non existent. So Spike built this into a Seinfeld episode and I was the lucky recipient of that lack of dance ability as Elaine. And in the script, it says something like Elaine gets up to dance and does these little kicks. And so the little kicks is actually what the episode is called.

And I remember the night before rehearsals began I stood in front of a mirror and I tried to come up with moves that were weird and didn't resemble anything graceful or rhythmic. And I came up with a couple of options and I went downstairs to where my mom, who happened to be staying with us at the time and my husband were in the kitchen. And I said, okay, you guys. So which one of these is the worst? And I did the tube movements and both my mom and Brad picked the same one.

And that's the movement, ladies and gentlemen, that I incorporated into the episode. And it's what people now call the Elaine dance. So then when we started to rehearse they had this music track going. And as soon as I heard the music, I couldn't block out the beat. You know, those weird kicks and putting my thumbs out.

They're gonna look pretty bad, obviously, no matter what. But they're gonna look so much worse if they're not on the beat. And I really wanted it to be bad so I had them turn off the music so that I would dance with no beat at all. And then they put the music in later so that my sort of very erratic herky jerky movements wouldn't have any sense of rhythm whatsoever. And ever since that episode aired and it became one of the more popular episodes of Seinfeld, honestly, I can feel eyes on me any time we go to a wedding or any kind of dance anywhere.

I can feel people watch me because obviously they're expecting me to dance that horrible dance, the Elaine dance. And the truth is that if I actually stumble on that episode on tv, I can't even watch it because it's just so God awful ugly it just makes me wince. But, you know, it did do the trick in terms of getting the laugh. So many years later, I was the lucky recipient of the Mark Twain award at the Kennedy center. And, you know, they line up people to say nice things about you or whatever and Abby Jacobson and Ilana Glaser without me having any idea that they were doing this.

They got some real dancers and they choreographed a whole modern dance based on the Elaine dance. They did that awful move, but they made it into a real dance number and it was stone cold genius and hilarious. And they're just the best. And I'm sure you can watch it online someplace. And really it's worth it because it's just fabulous idiocy.

They really rehearsed it and it was just such a bold move. What a treat. I love those women. So when I really think about dance, I realize how much dancing has meant to me almost without knowing it. And I wish I'd dance so much more.

Of course, I ain't dead yet, so there can be as much dancing in my future as I allow there to be. And, I mean, how beautiful is it that in cultures all across the world we dance when we're happy. We dance when we're sad. We dance to be funny. People dance to express what can't be expressed in any other way.

I mean, in the end, the body is the best communicator. So how lucky for us, then, that today's conversation is with Debbie Allen.

Hi, I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is wiser than me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me.

We all know that if you can sing and dance, they call you a double threat. If you sing, dance and act, you're a triple threat. But what do you call someone who can sing, dance, act, choreograph, write, produce, direct and run her own dance academy? You'd have to call them Debbie Allen. Born and raised in the segregated south, she is the youngest in a truly prodigiously talented family.

One of her brothers is a jazz musician, and the other is a banker. Her sister is the actress Felicia Rashad, and her mom, Vivian, was even nominated for a Pulitzer Prize in poetry in 1952. Dance was her first love. She overcame deep racial barriers to become the first ever black student at the Houston Ballet school. After graduating from Howard University, she made her way to New York with her sister Felicia.

By the way, do yourself a favor, please, and look up the video to their song, more than a man. The outfits are so quintessentially eighties and just totally friggin fabulous. Once in New York City, she scored the role of Anita in the Broadway revival of west side Story, and she earned her first Tony Award nomination. And no, no, no, let's not forget the little tv shows, Fame and the hit Cosby spin off a different world. Both of those series were cultural touchstones in the history of entertainment.

Not only did she star in them, that's where she started directing. But how many other women were even directing television in the eighties? Guys, the answer is not a lot. And black women, even fewer. She didn't stop there.

She went on to produce movies like Amistad and direct about a million episodes of major league tv shows like Scandal, Insecure, Jane the Virgin, and we. Please, we can't talk about tv without talking about freaking Grey's anatomy. That show is a behemoth. It's on its 20th season, and Debbie has been integral to the show's continued success as an actress, director, and executive producer. Above all, she is a teacher, a mentor, the tide that lifts all boats.

She spends most of her time working at the Debbie Allen Dance Academy, Dada for short, and just fulfilled her dream of opening a middle school. She has dedicated her life to nurturing not just her own children, but the next generation of talent. Holy shit, folks, does she have the same 24 hours in a day that the rest of us have? It just. It does not seem like it at all.

And as for awards, they're plenty, from emmys to a Golden Globe, not to mention a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. But her impact truly goes beyond all of those accolades. Her daughter calls her tough, talented, effervescent, and a mother to truly all goodness. I am so excited to welcome a woman who is a whirlwind of energy and creativity on stage, on screen, in school, and in life. And this is a woman who is definitely wiser than me.

Debbie Allen. Oh, Debbie. Wow. Wow, Julia, that was more than a mouthful. It's so much.

Debbie Allen
I know. Thank you for this glorious introduction. Well, you deserve it. And I want to say I feel as I was reading and looking into your life, I have to say, I feel like this show, this podcast, was built for you. We have so much to learn from you, and I'm dying to talk to you about so many aspects of your life and life in general.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Before I do, though, I have to ask, are you comfortable if I ask your real age? Yeah, I'm 74 and kicking. And kicking. So that's my next question. How old do you feel?

Debbie Allen
25. Yeah, that's what I thought. Well, because it's really a mental state of mind that really affects your physical being. Yes. And I've always, you know, from high school, I was missing most versatile.

So I've always had many things to do at the same time. But right now, my life is just infused with things that are vibrantly creative and inspiring for me to do. Yes. The Debbie Allen Dance Academy is a whole purpose in my life. Of course.

With these children. Yes. And raising generations of human beings that can uplift and change the world. My play that I did last summer, fetch Clay McMahon, is headed to. Going to New York.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Nice. I'm going to see a new play this weekend that they want me to direct, that wants to get to New York. Grey's Anatomy is on the cusp of season 21. How mind blowing is that? So I couldn't be more busy, if you will, and more inspired to do what I do and engaged in everything that I'm doing.

Debbie Allen
And then I have two grandchildren that I'm so in love with. Oh, nice. How old are they? Three and five years old. Oh.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh. And the three year old is gonna make her acting debut on Grey's Anatomy in episode seven. Oh, my God. We have to look out for that. It's just too much.

Debbie Allen
It's great. Well, I was gonna ask you what's the best part about being your age, but I think it sounds like everything is the best part. Am I right? Well, you know, if you live a life like I've lived and you are healthy and you have all your faculties, you only get sharper at what you do. Yes.

I mean, you know, how old is Steven Spielberg? Yeah, exactly. You know, you get better at what you do, and you get more economical with where you spend your time, and you're more effective in really great ways. So I feel really good about it. And I'm happy to talk about my age because so many women, you know, coil up and go into a corner.

Yes. They're ashamed. They're shamed, and they shouldn't be. I don't know why they should be so happy. People are dying left and right, and we are living.

We woke up vertical. Child, calm down. Wake the hell up. So I learned that your mother, who is not only a poet, an artist, an activist, a scholar, a playwright, but she's also 100 years old. Debbie.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah. We're gonna have the 101st birthday in July. It's incredible. My mom is 100. I'm gonna take her today to.

Debbie Allen
We've been doing a whole month of celebration of women, and then we're gonna have a listening party with Ondra day. She's the incredible actress that played Billie Holiday versus the United States. Yes. Her album is to die for. Wow.

And mom is gonna go with me. She's gonna be my date. Oh, that's brilliant. That's beautiful. I would imagine you've learned a lot from her about aging, Debbie, right?

No, we don't talk about aging. What are you talking about? Nobody. Well, living, may I say. That's right.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I talked to Diane von Furstenberg. I talked to her on this podcast, and she said, let's not talk about age. Let's talk about living. Not aging, but living. So how long have you lived?

So you've lived 74 years. So what has she taught you about living? What has she modeled for you? Her poetry, her book Hawk, which you can get on Amazon.com. Yes.

Debbie Allen
Her legacy work, which she wrote in 1957, is about man's transcendence to a higher level of existence and being, man's search for freedom. It's really her story. It was her story. It's an allegory with various characters, and there's a mantra that we've lived with since we grew up. Tell me.

And it's in. It's in her writing. It's know your own worlds of being and be true. Be beautiful, be free. That is the palette of how we grew up.

Knowing your own worlds of being. Me. Who are you, number one? What is it that affects you? What is it that you connect with?

What is it that's important to you in life? What is it that inspires you to wake up and do something about it? Yeah. Know your own worlds of being. And so I've been living in my own world for a long time and shared worlds with my sister Felicia.

My brother Tex, and I also have a younger brother, Hugh Allen, that's a banker. And we've all grown up with a sense of ourselves, with mama kind of at the helm of that. Yeah. You know, I have a similar experience with my mother, who's 90, and she's also a poet, Debbie. She used to teach poetry and writing.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And then when she was, I'm gonna say, 75, she started writing poetry herself, and she's had two books published. And for me, her poetry, well, first of all, it's an insight into who she is emotionally and intellectually. But it's also. It models an enormous amount of strength to me that's been formative, really formative. And I think you're talking about your mother's strength.

It has clearly taken you along the way in a very profound and meaningful way. I mean, she's obviously a remarkable person. So I wanted to ask you, in 1959, when you were nine years old, this remarkable mom of yours took you and your sister to live in Mexico, right? Yep. Yep.

And I read this quote because you were, and I want to be clear, you went to live in Mexico because she wanted to get you out of the segregated south, and she wanted to get herself. And we always went with mama. This is something I'm trying to help parents try to understand, okay, that they have to take their children on their journey. Oh, interesting. You have to take your children on your journey, and then they will be a part of it, and they will grow as a result of that.

So let's talk about your growing then. When you were in Mexico, you said, mommy always told us that we were children of the universe and we had no boundaries. Once we got to Mexico, we were able to see it. So, talk about how living in Mexico broadened your horizons, your view of the world, and your place in it. Well, there was no racial segregation.

Debbie Allen
It didn't exist. Yeah. I mean, it's like going from white to black. All of a sudden, everything was wide open. Yeah.

Restaurants, movie theaters, all the things that we couldn't do at home. You know, when I finally played Anita in West side Story, west side Story came out in, what, 57? I was seven years old at the time, but I was already indoctrinated into the musical. I didn't see west side Story as a young girl. It wasn't part of the fabric of my life till later, because every movie theater was segregated in Houston, Texas.

So when I got to Mexico with mom, all of a sudden, we could. Theaters, dance classes. We were able to be people. Yeah. Not black people.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, I hear you. In segregated white America, we were able to be people. And that was, you know, what mama said was true, that the universe is so much bigger than this little block, the city, this street, and that you have to, you know, get out in the world. And I really wish people had the opportunity to get out of our country. So they could also understand the power of the influence of this country and also feel grateful for everything that we have.

Debbie Allen
But see, what else? What other realities exist? There are other realities outside of America that are really things we ought to know about, and they can change our perspectives and open up people's lives. So we were in dance class. We were in school.

I was in the school speaking, you know, half day English, half day Spanish. Are you fluent in Spanish still? I used to be more, but when I speak it, they say I don't have an accent. I'm sure of how I learned it. I do need to go and delve back into it, especially since we live in California, which used to be Mexico.

I know, let's call it what it is. Yeah. And. But then what about coming back? You have that just extraordinary experience living there.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
But then what was the transition like coming back to the states? We were in Mexico for a year. Oh, only a year. And we came back. Well, we went back and forth for a year and a half, let me put it that way.

Debbie Allen
But the civil rights movement was just taking this country like a brush fire. And so by the time I was back, you know, everything was happening. I remember Doctor King coming to my dad's house for dinner. He was friends with my stepmother, and we were in the streets marching for, you know, just basic human rights, to go to a restaurant, to go to a movie theater. You know, when you think about segregation, it's not that long ago that everything was segregated.

Everything couldn't go to school, couldn't go to ballet class, all of these things. Right. And we take. We can't ever take that for granted, especially in the climate right now with the, believe me, the erosion of civil rights, the erosion of women's rights, the erosion of human rights, human compassion. Yeah.

We have to really look at this carefully and as a people, as a nation come together, because I'm telling you, when you get outside of America, we are the hope for so many millions of people outside of this country. That's right. And what happens here is what is possible there. Right. Also, I want to say that, of course, segregation nowadays, it's not called segregation so much, but it's subtle and it's ever present.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And, you know, I had the blessing to talk to Gloria Steinem, and we were talking about community. And she said, well, now, look around at your community, who is in your community, and if everybody looks like you, you're part of the problem. And it's an interesting thing to really consider in a meaningful way. Yeah. So explain what it was like then when you came back to the States and you were the first black student at Houston Ballet school.

Can you talk about, did you feel othered, or did you feel apart? What was that experience for you? It was both. The person in charge was Russian, Madame Tatiana Semenova, and she did not play. She kicked everybody's ass.

Debbie Allen
She didn't care what you were. She kicked everybody's ass. She certainly kicked mine. Yes. So she was tough.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Tough. Tough as nails on me and everybody, but she was tough on me. And I was the only black kid in the whole school. Yeah. And there was.

Debbie Allen
I don't know, it was such a matter of pride that I was selected to go there, and it was a Ford foundation grant that deemed it so that I should be there, which I found out later, which was amazing. And so there were some kids that were a little put off. But, you know, when you get in the dance studio and you start dancing, you have to drop all that. Right. And did you love her?

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Did you love her? I came to love her so much, I bet she used to kick my ass. It's why I taught on fame. With a cane. With a cane.

I saw that. Yes. That's where it came from. Because she did. I have her cane.

Debbie Allen
They gave it to me. Oh, that's so meaningful. They gave it to me when she died. She used to whack us with that cane. Ooh, child.

Maybe you can't do that today, but it certainly did work. Right, right. And so there was a certain feeling about being the only one. But then there were two sisters, Patty and. Oh, what's the other one saying?

They were two beautiful, tall white sisters who had a Cadillac car, and they would pick me up on the way to class on Saturday, and they just adored me. And so I made really good friends. Yeah. And at the end of the day, which is what I teach my kids, dance was my friend. I was there to dance.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes. I wasn't there to socialize, but I was there to dance, and I did learn to dance. Yeah. And it helped me become Debbie Allen. Yeah.

Debbie Allen
That everybody loves seeing dance. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with more wisdom from Debbie Allen after this quick break.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
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So, when you were 16, you auditioned for the highly respected North Carolina school of the Arts. Mm hmm. Is that right? Yep. And that did not work out, right?

Debbie Allen
No. That was a very painful experience for a young woman to have to be the whole hope for your whole neighborhood, your community. Flying for the audition, going to the audition, being used to demonstrate to other students of what the routine, the combination was, and then being told, no, you're not right. You should go into something else. It's very painful.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
What was your take? What did you. What did you learn from that? I learned a very hard lesson. That I couldn't let someone dictate my future.

Mm hmm. I couldn't let one person say no to me, stop me. Nice. Because it did stop me. But my mom wasn't having it, so.

Well. I know. I read you said that your mother said, I can't believe you failed. Yeah. So that was tough.

I bet that was tough from your own mom. She said that to me in the airport. You know what I have to say? Parents need to learn tough love. Cause mom was loving me.

Debbie Allen
She was not letting me be a victim. Right. She was not letting me go. Oh, they didn't want me, which was true. I don't think they really wanted many black, any black.

There was one black person in class I saw. Mm hmm. But she was not letting me. But it motivated you? It motivated me, and it took a moment for me to understand that, but I did come to understand it.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
What do you mean, a moment? Like a year or two. Well, I didn't understand it. It was hard. I went to Howard University, and then I was there a whole year until I started to understand what mama was talking about.

Debbie Allen
It took me almost a year to understand it because I was still the dancer that needed to go on. Yes. And I was discovered at Howard University as the. Ooh, that girl can really dance. Come over here.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah. Then I started acting. Then I started choreographing. My whole world opened up. Then I met Alvin Ailey, and I met, you know, Kathryn Dunham's protege, tally Beatty.

Debbie Allen
And I met Martha Graham. All of that happened because dance was always such a big part of who I was. Right? And I had to reclaim that on my own without anybody's measure of, you know, anointment or, you know, encouragement. I had to encourage myself.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, you had to own it and be it. And do you? I know the answer to this question. I'm assuming that you give feedback to the kids that you teach in the same way. I mean, I can see that you're obviously a very tender hearted person, but I'm assuming also that you're tough with them.

I am. Yeah, I bet you are. Talk about giving feedback to your students. How would you characterize it? I know that's kind of a weird question.

Maybe it's not a good question, but. It'S a good question because in today's climate, children have rights and you can't say certain things. But sometimes things that are tough need to be said. Straight up, no chaser. Boom.

Can you give me an example? Okay. There was one kid who was really talented, and I could see that they could become even a director or choreographer. I could see that in how they moved in the class, but they started becoming a bully. Oh.

Debbie Allen
And so I pulled this child aside and I said, do you want your peers to follow you because you're creative and inspiring or because they're afraid of you? And that made that child stop and think. And did the child change their behavior? Yeah, the child changed. Oh, good.

Yeah, they changed. I suspended them for a little while. And sometimes you have to do that, you know? Or I can say, sometimes I've had to make people understand who they are. One girl in my class, in my rehearsal, beautiful black girls.

So beautiful. Dark complected beautiful, but never dancing with the sense of how beautiful. I said, why are you dancing like the ugly duckling? Stop it. Mm hmm.

Look in the mirror. You are an african goddess. Look in the mirror. Look in your DNA pool. Who are you?

Stop it. Did it work? Yeah, it worked. It hurts.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
That's so good. I mean, the parents say, why are you calling my child ugly duck? Because she is acting like that and she needs to be told and has to be clear. You know? We have to.

Debbie Allen
It's a time right now with all that's going on in education and the truths that are not able to be told or don't want to be told. Right. This is a time where kids need to get it straight. So you're giving it to them straight? I am.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So you started your career, essentially, when you started your career on Broadway. Can you talk about the rigors of that? Like, I mean, that is cuckoo bananas, is it not, in terms of what is demanded of you for however many shows a week? It is, I'm assuming eight shows a week, nine shows a week. No, it's not like being in a dance company.

Debbie Allen
If you're in a dance company, you are dancing straight up. Maybe 30 or 40 minutes. In a Broadway show, you might be in two numbers, three numbers. You got time to put your feet up, go outside, steal something, get arrested, and come back. I don't know what.

I'm just saying, it's not like a dance company. There's nothing more demanding than being in a dance company, which is why I'm trying to make young people understand that. Cause there's a lot of competition schools out there that are great. They're really teaching wonderful things. But you have to do more than tricks for 45 seconds.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right. You have to be able to dance. You have to have the stamina hard for 30 minutes. 30 minutes. Look at Judith Jameson's cry, Alvin Ailey's masterpiece that he choreographed for her.

Debbie Allen
That piece is 15 minutes long, and it's just her. Whoa. That. I think I saw that when I was little. I think I saw that because my mom used to take us and we saw Judith Jameson.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And I'm pretty sure. Cause I remember. Yeah, I know. Gosh, she was so long. I know.

Debbie Allen
She's over here on my coffee table. That's a sculpture of her right there. Yes, that's right. Arms up, right? Yes.

There's a sculpture of her doing cry. Oh, my goodness. Tina Allen, a fantastic artist who passed way too soon, was the artist that created that. Well, that's a beautiful. That's a beautiful piece of art.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
No doubt as she was. So I am, as the Brits say, gobsmacked at your career from a female perspective, that you started directing in the eighties. And I mean this because you're a woman. I mean, and even today, women are obviously still severely underrepresented in directing. Do you remember that first episode that you directed?

Debbie Allen
Very well. Oh, good. Tell me. Tell me. Well, I was certainly the beloved choreographer of fame.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yes. The crew came to really love me. The DP who did not like me at first came to love me. Why did he not like you? Because I had all these ideas, and I was not from film school, so I didn't have limitations, and I was trying to push the envelope of what we could do.

Yes. And then I had the blackest girl and the whitest boy dancing together. I can't light that. I said, well, child, you gotta find a way to light them. Cause they gonna dance together every week.

Debbie Allen
Sometimes directors would go home and I'd finish it for them. Cause they didn't understand how to shoot dance. And I gladly did that with no credit. Just wanted to get it right. So then the crew was like, we need Debbie.

So then the Bill Blinn, who was our showrunner, said, okay, Debbie, you're gonna get your shot. You're gonna get your shot. And that episode was everything. And I was up all night trying to figure out, okay, what should I wear? What should I wear?

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Do not tell me that. Really. I swear to God. What should I wear? Okay.

Debbie Allen
Should I dress a little mannish so they'll, you know, listen to me? Or should I go in sexy? Yeah. And just, you know. What'd you wear?

I wore some pink overalls and some lace socks and a t shirt, what I usually wear. I just came as myself, as yourself, and realized that that's who they really wanted and that's who I am. And I was. They were so impressed. And I remember one day when in my episode, we rapped at 03:00 early.

They said, oh, bring her. She needs to direct every episode.

And it wasn't that I was rushing, but I always. You just did what you wanted. Yeah. Well, I had studied film by watching movies. Movies had been my, you know, into the musical and dance world.

When I was a kid, watching the Nicholas brothers and Ruby Keillor and Gene Kelly and, you know, the Red shoes, all these Norma Shearer, all these great dancers, Katherine Dunham. So I was very much always paying attention to what they looked like in the shots. I didn't even know I was, but I was paying attention to how they were being shot. The big shots. Yeah.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
It got into your bones. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. Yeah. So you went in and you had a real.

You had a strong sense of what you needed and what you wanted when you and bam, bam, boom, there you were. Yeah. And I didn't have anyone there to tell me how to do it. Mm hmm. And who became my dear friend was Bill Spencer, my DP, who, I tell you, he didn't like me to start, but he came to love me.

Debbie Allen
And I created the Debbie note, and that would be the time code of the music, the lyric of the music, the movement of the dance, the camera, how it was capturing it. I made that up on my own. It was my way of communicating with people, what we were going to do. Then one day, Bill Spencer took me into the archives of MGM and showed me the notes from the movies that I had grown up on, how they had done the same thing you didn't instinctively, and no one had taught me that. No one told me that.

He showed me that. I was like, wow, I should have taken those. I should have stolen that. I should have stolen them. I should have stolen it.

They probably burned it. Who knows what they did with it? But I wanted to ask you about coming up against Hollywood execs, mainly white, male Hollywood execs, and how did you make sure your voice was heard, and where did that courage come from? Cause you had to come up against it a lot, I'm sure, in your career. What was your power in those moments?

Well, my experience is really what you're asking that. Yes, I had some of the most powerful men as my supporters and fan of my creativity. One of the toughest meetings I ever had was with a female, a woman who was very high, high, high, high up. Which I was so surprised. I'm just saying it out loud because it's true.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah. This happened when I was working at MGM studios, and we were having a really hard time because, you know, any studio has the right to rent out sets to other companies and other places. Yes. Even though it's your show, they can do that. Yeah.

Debbie Allen
And so we were having this problem on fame, and then we got this really scathing letter from someone very high up, denigrating our crew and how we do things and we're costing money. And then I wrote her a letter back that said, we're doing this because of your bad decision making. What you're doing, to our extent, our crew is top notch. You have no respect. And that created, like, a, you know, oh, my God, who is this that's writing it?

And I copied everybody. He copied. Good. So then I was called, how do you write such a letter? I'm like, well, you wrote it.

I was just responding to the audience. That's part of this conversation, I said, you came at us. I'm just letting you know what's the real truth? So then I got called into the. I called the principal's office, and it was with the woman who was the main person, right ahead of this person.

And in this meeting, I just watched her playing into her femininity and with the guys, you know, the way she was sitting and talking all like that. And I just looked at her and I was like, whoa, I'm not gonna be like that. That's not gonna happen. Oh, my God. So it wasn't always men.

It wasn't just white men. Okay? It was who was in charge. If they don't have a sensitivity to the creative process, and if they're someone who is just really pushing their own, you know, name on the door or credit, which is sometimes the case. I hear you.

It was the system. It was the system. But in this case, it's a woman who's sort of perpetuating misogyny. Right, right. The kitty cat.

She was a kitty cat. I was like, so I want to. Know what you did in that moment. I mean, how. How did you.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I mean, because she's undermining you. How do we stop doing that to each other, number one. And how did you handle her in that moment? I just really looked at her in a way that I know she could feel. And then when we were in the room alone and she was telling me, you know, you can't do this, I said, well, how do you do what you just did?

Debbie Allen
How do you do that? Oh. And we left it. She knew what I was talking about. Oh, Debbie, that's incredible.

So that's my problem. That's always been my problem, that I was. I grew up with my mom having to fight for everything, and I grew up being a person who is creative and honest and not afraid to speak my mind. And that was not always welcomed. So you saw right through to her and you said it.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I love that. I love that. So. So that's like, applaud it now. But when, you know, back in the day, when you by yourself, you just have to stand up for who you gotta stand up for.

That's right. And you might be the only one. We'll be back with Debbie Allen in just a moment.

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So in 1988, you were brought in on a different world, the hit Cosby show spin off to turn that show around. And you were 38 years old. And then again in 2015, you were hired on Grey's Anatomy to help turn that show around. Which you did. You did.

In both cases, you are absolutely, in addition to everything else, a fixer. Debbie. So was it clear in your mind that you could do it? And if you had uncertainty at all, how did you power through that? I'm wondering, did you know or did you have any feeling of, like, insecurity about coming in?

Debbie Allen
Well, different world was a world that I knew like the back of my hand. I went to Howard University, and when I was called in, I remember meeting with Marcy Carcy and Tom Werner. Sure. And I asked to see every episode. They said, you want to see every episode?

I said, yeah, I need to see what this is. Yeah. And I saw in an instant what it was. It just had no cultural identity, and that was just the first place to start. And then there was just such, you know, this happens in this town that what was happening on set was the actors were not being included in decisions or how things were being done.

I had done one episode of Family Ties with Gary David Goldberg. Yes. Who was a dear friend. Oh, really? Yeah.

I learned so much from him. Yeah, I did, too. He cast me in my first pilot. Oh, my God. He was the best guy.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
The greatest guy. Yeah. What I learned just being there when I was observing, before I started directing, they did a table ready. Then they opened the floor for the actors to respond to the material. Sure.

Debbie Allen
And they actually listened to them. That was not happening at a different world. A different world. Scripture being written here. You say this, you say that.

If you say, ooh, instead of, ah, we gotta take it again. Oh, my lord. No, no. There's no spontaneity. There's no joy.

There's no fun or funny. In that kind of climate. It can't happen. The biggest fight I had was to knock down that barrier between the writers and the cast, because they needed to be able to have a common dialogue about how they were doing things and finding things. Cause I remember one scene we did with Khadim Hardison and Jasmine guy.

That was Whitley and Dwayne Wayne. It was a fantasy moment where he was envisioning kissing her, or she was envisioning kissing him. And what I did was I did it all in slow motion, and it was. The audience died. It was not how it was scripted.

I just added something to it, and then I played a song, the audience laughed for five minutes. It stopped the show. It was so funny. So that's a gift to the writers, right? Don't be talking about.

That's not what's on the page, child. Come on. You're talking about collaboration. Major leading. Yeah, because, so, you know, you can write it, I can direct it, but at the end of the day, the actor has to find it.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah. So I know Bill Cosby obviously gave you your big break as a showrunner on that show, and I know you've been thinking, apparently, about doing a reboot of a different world, but it seems it's been stalled because of his conviction. How do you. If you don't mind talking about it, how do you reconcile the opportunity that he gave you, which was enormous, with what he's done? How do you square that if you can, in your own.

Debbie Allen
I don't know if you can square it. I don't know if you can reconcile. I think you have to look at it for what it is, and there's no good outcome on either side. The things that you wish did not happen. Yeah.

And then you look at the times in which these things happened and what else was going on. You know, I used to say, you know, I was always plagued with this on the red carpet. It made me not want to go anywhere, honestly. I understand that because I didn't. I don't have anything to say.

I don't. I really didn't have anything to say. I mean, yeah, I think one things I wanted to know was. When was he gonna get some company? When were some of these other people gonna go to jail with him?

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Mm hmm. You know? Mm hmm. But a different world was a show that, you know, had its merits and stood on its own legs, separate from the Cosby show, separate from anything else. Oh, no doubt.

Debbie Allen
And so it's worthy to continue because Bill Cosby handed me the keys to that kingdom and said, go. And he was not a part, really, of everything that we did. The one thing he did do was when we did an episode about AIDS, he stood behind us and said, it ought to happen. That was the one thing he did. So the show right now is more relevant, I think, than any time in history is what is a college campus talking about right now?

Because in any country, when the young people are quiet or silent, the country is just dead. What is important to young people right now? How are we seeing the future and seeing it through the eyes of a predominantly black university? A black cast would really be a great thing. It's why the shows right now still are relevant.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, it totally is. You know, we did shows reclaiming the image of Aunt Jemima. We did shows about the voter registration. We did shows about date rape. We did shows about so many things that they still have relevance.

So you. You've worked so hard between your. You know, between Greys and your academy and everything, and the movies, everything that you've done.

I want to know how you've done this and had a family, actually. How have you managed that, for real? I mean, I. Yeah, yeah. Tell me about that life balance for you, Debbie.

Debbie Allen
Life balance is tough. It's very tough, because there's only so many hours of the day. Right. And in this last few weeks, it's been crowded, really crowded. Between Grey's anatomy, the development of the projects.

I'm working on, what's happening in the middle school. I have so many talented. I'm gonna leave you now to audition three kids that want to become a part of my middle school. And I audition every child that comes in. Wow.

And they have to, you know, meet a certain level of ability and their desire. They don't have to be all on the same level, but if they have the potential, they have to reap. Let me rephrase it. A certain level of potential for me to accept them, and then I have to go raise money. And so I have a few angels that are coming in.

Then people are starting to recognize the power of education in the arts and helping me. And hopefully, this will become a model to create, because there are no middle schools that have the arts. They're always high schools. They're never the middle. The middle school is when you need to get them, though.

Yeah, that's where you need to get them. And it's a critical time of child development as well. Yeah, but I want to ask you about your own self and taking care of yourself and taking care for our listeners. She just throws her hands up. No, but I mean, how do you do it?

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
What about your self care? Can you just talk? I know you have to go, but I want to hear about how you look after yourself. How have you been able to look after your own personal life with your family in the midst of doing all these. All these miracles, frankly, that you're performing in the world and they are miracles, tell us.

Debbie Allen
Well, I've tried to carve out time, especially on the weekend when we're not shooting, although we're shooting grays today, too. I gotta go there to spend that time. Family, grandchildren, family, that. So I try to get my grandkids every afternoon, every Saturday, and keep them till Sunday. And we do whatever we do or not.

Roller skate, cook movies, walk the dog, whatever we do. Read books. But I need. In terms of Debbie time, that's something I have to work on. I really am knowing that I need to work on it, because just having time to just go to the doctor and get regular tests.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right. You know, when was the last time I had a doctor asked me what was the last time he had a mammogram. I was like, I don't know. He's like, you better go, Debbie Allen. I said, so I'm gonna, you know, just take a day and just do a lot of tests just to be current.

Right. Or just to take time. I wish I had more time to just go to a yoga class, that hot yoga, which I love so much. Well, I don't want to take any more of your time. Cause I actually think you need to find that Debbie time.

I want you to find that hour for hot yoga or that hour just to meditate or not. Or 20 minutes even to meditate. I do. I want to. Just before you leave, I'm going to ask you some really short questions.

I like to ask the wise woman that we speak to on this show. Is there anything you'd go back and tell yourself at 21, Debbie?

Debbie Allen
I would just say, stay on the path. Oh, nice. You're doing good. You're doing good, kid. Yeah.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
That's beautiful. What are you looking forward to? I'm looking forward to actually having some time with my husband. Because there are times where I see him in the morning, I see him at night. He just walked in here and I waved.

Debbie Allen
I can't talk to him right now. Having a little more time with my husband. And we were talking about going away somewhere to a kind of spa environment, you know, not someplace where we, like, we want to go to New York and see all the shows, the restaurants, but we need to go somewhere and just. Just chill. Yeah.

Where we can read a book that we really want to read. That's something we have to read. He's always reading books. I got to get caught up with that. Well, I hope you have the time to do that, but it's been a blessing to talk to you.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Is there anything you want me to know about aging?

Debbie Allen
Stop worrying about aging. Just live. Okay. That's perfect. That's perfect.

I'm not looking at it that way. Yeah. Love it. Okay, thank you. Thank you.

Bye bye.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Alrighty, let's get my mom on a Zoom call. I can't wait to tell her about Debbie.

Hi, mama. How are you? Hi, love. I'm fine. How are you doing?

I'm good. I just talked to the incomparable Debbie Allen. I'm so interested to hear about her. Well, mom, she is a force and has been doing everything, and I do mean everything, for decades. I can't believe how she powers through her life.

And she's been a mentor, and she has this dance academy. I mean, she's extraordinary. And I. Well, first of all, mommy, I want to talk to you about Alvin Ailey. You took us to see Alvin Ailey all the time when we were growing up.

Do you remember that? Loved it. I loved his work. Yes, right, right. And didn't we see Judith Jameson dance, mommy?

Judith Bowles
Absolutely. She was unreal. Those legs that seemed to go on forever. Her. Her force, her strength, her beauty.

It was such a combination. Combination of everything. She had it all. In fact, as I was talking to Debbie, she has a statue of Judith Jameson on her desk. Remember that?

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Judith Jameson was like. It seemed to me, anyway. I mean, I'm very short, but she seemed very tall. Enormous, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Enormous. And so she has a statue of Judith Jameson with her arms up. And that's how I remember Judith Jameson with those long arms, right? Mm hmm.

Yes. Yes. Yeah. Mom, didn't you study dance? I did.

Judith Bowles
I took dance all through high school. And my teacher was Carolyn Cates, and she had been a Rockette. And I have to tell you, that was as good as it got to anybody. We were just so taken with her. Carolyn Cates, I adored, but I never really considered myself a dancer.

Like, that was not something I was going to pursue. That was not something. Well, what is it about dancer? You liked the movement and the fact that I could do it. From the time I was little, when I saw somebody do it, I could do it.

I just, you know, I could copy it. And I sort of knew what to do with my arms and my leg. I mean, just, it was something intuitive that I was, and I loved it. I found great freedom in it. By the way, her mom is going to be actually 101, apparently, in July.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Can you envision yourself getting that old mom? Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think I can envision it, too.

Judith Bowles
I mean, I may not, who knows? But I have recently talked to a 98 year old woman who is here. Yes. In the retirement community we live in. And had some wine with her in her place, then ran into her at the, at a wonderful jazz trio that we all had.

She's very much into music, although I didn't know too much. And so then the jazz trio is playing some jazz improvisations with some sort of old fashioned songs like lovely, just the way you look tonight. So then people said, marian, her name is Mary Marion Marian, come up. So they wheeled her up, and she's spry and sprightly and very beautiful. Very.

I mean, she looks 80. And so she began to sing. No, and I'm telling you something, my jaw dropped. Everybody took a deep breath. It was perfection.

And she sang two songs. I can't remember the second one. Every note was perfect. And I was so nervous. I was thinking, oh, God, make it, make it.

And afterwards, I went up to her, I said, marianne, I'm so envious of you. I said, that was so wonderful. And she said, and I said, I had no idea you had this kind of voice. And she said, oh, I used to sing at the blue Note, the famous. New York jazz club.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
No way. Yeah, her voice. I can't tell you, Julia, if you. When we, when we see each other next, if I can possibly get hold of her and, and if we could possibly get her to sing, you would die. You would die.

Oh, my God. We got to get ahold of her. But all of a sudden, then the 98. And I was, oh, by the way, she went to Duke, where I went. And then I was thinking, well, she was just eight years ahead of me, and you know, that, that's.

Judith Bowles
And then I thought, and by the way, she said, we're in a sorority. And I said, oh, yeah, but they didn't amount to much at Duke. And she said, well, I was in one, too. And so we were both in the same sorority. No way.

Debbie Allen
Yeah. Yeah. Well, mommy, that is incredible. I said to her, you know, we had a handshake in that sorority. I said, I can't remember.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Can you? And we. So we're trying to fiddle out with our fingers. You entwined your fingers in some way. I can't get over it.

Judith Bowles
Yeah, I can imagine. Well, I'm ready. I'm ready to book you with the blue Note. Now I'm going to book you with the blue Note. Maybe I can start carrying a tune since it's never before.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
No, exactly. This is what not to do. One thing you won't be doing at age 98 is maybe singing with the jazz truth. Although, if you want to sing, mom, go ahead and sing. No, I'm not going to.

Judith Bowles
But you know what I am thinking of doing? What? Two are harmonicas. And I'm thinking of learning to play the harmonica. Okay.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Why do you have two? I don't know.

I think you should learn how to play harmonica. That's a great idea. But I can try. You know, I think you should try. And then I think you and Marian, you got a group going here.

Okay, mommy. Well, this was fun to talk about. And I love you tons. Oh, thank you, honey. I love you.

Judith Bowles
And I love talking about it, too. And forgive me for getting on my bandwagon. No, that's what we're here for. We need you on your bandwagon. Oh, you do?

Okay, well, let's start over. Okay. Love you. Bye.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
There's more wiser than me with lemonade. Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content from each episode of the show. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. Make sure you're following Wiserthan me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok Wiserthan me.

And we're on Facebookiserthanmepodcast. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonade Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louie Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Jamila Zarago Williams, Alex Mcoan, and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is VP of new content, and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson.

Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry hall, who you you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up.

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Julia Gets Wise with Debbie Allen

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Episode Chapters

1: Dance and Early Influences

2: Breaking Barriers

3: Artistic Leadership

4: Legacy and Mentorship

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