Julia Gets Wise with Billie Jean King

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So in my conversation with einegarten, I talked about my grandma Didi's insanely delicious peanut butter cookies. They're very sentimental to me because it's my grandma. I still have Grandma Dee Dee's handwritten recipe on an old index card. To celebrate Mother's Day, we printed that exact card in Grandma Deedee's own handwriting onto a soft cotton tea towel. This is not your average tea towel.

You can bake the cookies from the recipe printed on the towel and then clean up with the same tea towel when you're done. It's a tea towel double. It's part of our wiser than me merch collection. To check it out, head to wiserthanmeeshop.com dot lemonade I don't exactly know how I became a sports fan because I was not an athlete when I was young. I was born in New York and early on I learned to ride a tricycle.

And I was good at that trike. I rode it in hallway of our building. How much fun is an apartment hallway on a tricycle? It's like, you know, just imagine it's being on a racetrack up and down and up and down. Although as I say this, I am now remembering the shining.

And of course not so fun in that movie, but in reality is in fact a lot of fun. But I lived in the city and so I never learned to ride a bike until I was like, I don't know, eight. And everybody was riding bikes by then, you know, by eight. But I kind of missed that window and I was so embarrassed because I had to have training wheels. I was always unsure of myself on a bike and I still am, really.

I don't really love riding bikes. They scare me. And bikes were the gateway to sports in elementary school. And so I was just kind of fucked. And I just didn't play sports.

I went to an all girls school and the sports that were available to us were field hockey, basketball, tennis, and gymnastics. I did not excel at any of these things at a girls school. You know, the sports girls were popular. And I think thats one of the great things about an all girls school. Women are the very top of the sports world.

You cheer for girls and all my best friends were athletic, so I wanted in on that. So I tried gymnastics. I even competed in an event. I think this was in fifth or 6th grade or something. It was a big meet.

Is that what it would be, a gymnastics meet? I dont know. Anyway, I had to do this routine on the balance beam that I practiced and practiced, got up on the beam, big smile and everything, probably pretending I'm Olga Corbett or whatever. And there is a crowd there. And at that moment, I swear to Lord Jesus, the whole routine went out of my head completely.

Just. I mean, just telling you this right now is making my palms sweat. I could remember nothing. So I just started to make things up. You know, in the movie version of this, I improvise this great routine and, you know, everybody applauds.

But in real life, I got the lowest score ever on a beam. It was like less than one out of ten. By the way, that's my big sports memory. Oh, wait a minute. Here's another one.

Okay, so we had two gym teachers, misses Nevitt, who everybody loved, and misses moody, who was English. And this is probably the best moment of my high school sports career. We were in PE and it was tennis day. And all of a sudden I hear misses Moody, the English one, she goes, cover your eyes, girls, cover your eyes. And a bunch of boys were streaking.

Anybody remember streaking, running around naked? It was the thing back then. It's a federal offense now, of course. But anyway, a bunch of boys were streaking naked across the field by the tennis courts. I don't know who these boys were.

This was an all girls school, so I suppose it was fertile ground for teenage male streakers. So, like, anyway, four boys go running by, and I did just as misses Moody instructed. I covered my eyes, but I remember I was laughing so hard that, you know, I mean, it's not a great come from behind victory. It's not a championship game. This is the kind of sports memory that I have.

And the funny thing is that I consider myself athletic now. I mean, sports and exercise are a huge part of my life. And our family life is totally sporty. My kids are great athletes. My husband is a sports nut.

He's always riding a bike or a surfboard or kite foiling or snowboarding or something. And I work out literally every day, and I love it. And growing up, my dad used to bet on a lot of sports. He had a bookie and everything, and he'd throw fits about the Mets and the New York Giants and the Knicks. And I paid no attention at all, except when he'd get an envelope full of cash, which was great.

That was always very exciting. But then my kids started playing high level sports and I started to see what it meant to them and started to get to know the other kids and their personalities and the stories that came along with the game. And I became a pretty knowledgeable basketball fan, and I fell in love with college basketball and abracadabra. I'm a sports fan. You know, in our current time, when everything is fragile and unsteady and so complicated and where so many things seem like lose lose proposition, here are sports which, despite the dubious character of some of the participants and the corruption of the leagues and, you know, sports always come down to a definable contest.

There's a great line in that old Walter Hill b movie cult film, the driver, Bruce Stern, who's always so good. I love Bruce Dern. He plays this rough cop, and at one point he says, you know what I do first thing every morning? Read the sports page. You know why?

Best part of the newspaper. Winners, losers, how it happened. Final score. I love that. The clarity of that.

God, is that appealing. No bullshit. You can't editorialize a final score. Winners, losers, heroes, heartbreak, elation. What's not to love?

That's why I'm so glad that today we get to talk to one of the greatest of all champions, Billie Jean King.

Hi, I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is wiser than me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me.

Okay, let me set the stage here. In 1966, when today's guest first reached number one in the world in tennis, women couldn't serve on juries in any of the 50 states. They couldn't get an undergraduate degree from almost any Ivy League college. They couldn't run the Boston Marathon. They couldn't legally refuse sex with their husbands.

Of course, there were some things they could do. They could get fired for being pregnant. They could be denied a credit card without a male cosigner, and they could play any sport they wanted, just none professionally, except golf. And thats in 1966, not 1866. Then along came Billie Jean King.

39 grand slams, 20 Wimbledon titles, a lifetime of battling for and winning womens right to equal pay, not just in tennis, but way, way beyond. She founded and led the Womens Tennis association and is the first female athlete ever to receive the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Not to mention, over 90 million people worldwide watched the match we now call the battle of the sexes. I mean, seriously, folks, let that sink in. Almost a quarter of Americans tuned in to watch her beat Bobby Riggs in 1973 in three straight sets.

Might I add, she's a sports icon. She's an LGBTQ icon, a feminist icon, and let's face it, she's just basically iconic. It's no exaggeration to say that Billie Jean King has changed the world. She is arguably the most important athlete of our time. I could not be more thrilled to talk to a woman who is so much wiser than me, the one and only Billie Jean King.

Hi. Hi. After that, I'm going to stop. Don't stop. You got to keep going.

You got to keep going. Oh, no, I'm not done yet. Are you kidding? Everybody says, well, now that you're so old, you know, what are you gonna do? And I said, I'm not done yet.

Billie Jean King
You know, you haven't even started. No, they still have a lot of energy, you know, so I'm well. So speaking of age, are you comfortable. If we say, oh, I love it? I never.

I'm 80. I just turned 80 last November. November 22. But how old do you feel? I don't know what eighty's supposed to feel like.

I always ask myself, like, when I was 60, when I was 50, when I was 40, when I was 30, when I was 20, I'm like, what am I supposed to feel? I don't know. I am what I am. The number is there, but it's really. How is my health, I think, right?

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, your health. Your health. And how you feel. And how do you feel? How do I feel physically, emotionally, mentally?

Billie Jean King
You know, I ask myself those questions. I mean, I still do therapy every week. Psychotherapy. Psychotherapy. What about physical therapy?

I don't need physical therapy. Well, a lot of my wife got me out during COVID to hit tennis balls again. I hadn't for 20 years. I had a lot of knee operations and shoulder everything. And I said, okay, let's try, because I just love it so much.

I mean, I love to hit the ball. So we do two or three times a week. Now she hits. You know, Lana was number one in the world in doubles, and she still plays a lot. So she's.

She's younger. She's in her late sixties. So she hits the ball right. To me, it's just amazing. I meet people who are playing and that we have a 100 and under event category for people that are 100 and under.

And it is hilarious. You know, what shot they use all the time is a drop shot because you can't move, and it's hilarious. But wait a minute. Wait a minute. Who's the oldest?

I don't know. Who the oldest one is. I don't know. I've got to find out. No, I don't know.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
You got to find out. I will find out. Somebody's got to be in their nineties, right? Oh, for sure. Oh, no, no.

Billie Jean King
They're just like probably 98, 99 in there. Yeah, for sure. Hey, so what's your relationship with your body like now, Billie Jean? I mean, has it changed as you've gotten older? Is your brain moving faster than your body?

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
How does that work? Oh, the brain definitely goes a little faster than the body now. But my brain's slower too. I think I've always been in tune with my body. Uh huh.

Billie Jean King
My brother, just so everybody knows, a lot of people do know this. A lot of people do not. I have a younger brother. He's five years, almost five years younger, four years, eleven months. Randy Moffat, Moffat's our birth name and he played professional baseball for twelve years.

Most of those with the Sam Circle Giants. But the third word we learned was ball. You know, mommy ball, daddy ball. We just, we are infatuated. They can roll it on the ground, they can throw it in the air.

We didn't care. And then if you, as you get older though, you start to realize it's science and art together and you want to be playing in front of people. You're a performer. It's so much fun. It's very expressive.

It's like, I love dance. I love ballet. I love all that I like too. My son Charlie was a d one athlete. He played basketball.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
He had a teacher when he was in 6th grade. He had real trouble sitting still. By the way, his first word was also ball. Uh oh. And right.

And so he had this teacher who was incredibly intuitive and she let him bounce a ball during class. Smart. Smart, right. Very. So he was able to concentrate as a result.

Tracy, shout out to Tracy, that was brilliant. Do that. Yeah, brilliant. That's very interesting because in school I got demoted with my grades when I did too well in sports because I'm a girl. Demoted with grades.

Billie Jean King
Yeah, I got unsatisfactory satisfactory in fourth grade because Miss Polachek said that I had done too well in sports and, you know, kind of like braggio show, I guess to her I didn't say anything, I just did it. And she said I'm going to give you an unsatisfactory because of that. Now that would never, to a boy, he would be honored and yeah, he. Would be lauded for it. Correct.

That's the difference. Growing up, always getting negative feedback for doing what I wanted to do. But wait, how did your parents react to that when you got the unsatisfactory? They just let it go. They said just ignore it.

Don't worry, just keep going. My mother didn't want me to play football and other sports, because she wanted me to be a lady at all times. And I said, mommy, what does that mean? And she said, oh, you know, and I said, no, mommy, I don't know what that means. And so I just remember that.

So when I was playing tennis, she was happier. Happier. But my dad understood totally. He was. Basketball's our first love.

So he was a basketball player, and he got asked back in the forties to join the NBA, and he didn't because there wasn't any money in at the time. And he's very risky, that generation with the depression, world war two. But no, he came home and became a firefighter, which I loved that he was a firefighter. Oh, God. Yeah, I love that too.

I loved it. But it was very difficult when he'd go to work because I never knew if he's going to come back. So he was a proper hero, right? Well, to me he was, because he believed in me as much as my brother as well. Yeah.

I mean, he told me to go for it, and everybody else around me is saying, huh, they didn't really care, but I really wanted to change the world through sports, through my sports. I know you did. And that's really what, you know, it's. I wanted us to be a pro sport. We were an amateur sport.

It was so terrible. I used to just go crazy. Hey, listen, let me ask you something. Just because I'm interested about this, because you're obviously so fit, and here you are, 80 years old. You are.

You're right. I am fit for an 80 year old. But I don't, you know, I don't. Come on, give me a break. Oh, I'm also lifting again.

I'm also doing a lot of weight work. This is my. Okay, so that's my question. What's your exercise regime besides playing tennis two to three times a week with Ilana? What else are you doing?

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Lifting weights? I started lifting weights again. I made a promise this year, instead of doing it sporadically, I'd be pretty consistent, which I have been. But we're still working full time. It's not.

Billie Jean King
And work itself and traveling like we do, I think, also keeps me fit, also keeps my mind active, solving challenges, not problems. And I am so happy I was in sports because it's made me strong. It's just helped me be strong in every way. There's something. Well, it must be like you and your acting.

I always wonder what actors go through. In terms of what. Like, the pressure that's on you. Like they say, let's go. You know, and you have to start the scene.

And, of course, if it's not live, which I'm sure you're thrilled with, Seinfeld and others, that you didn't, weren't live, because I don't know how you guys get through a scene without cracking up at each other. Well, sometimes we did. But having said that, there are endorphins that are, you know, the butterflies, whatever you want to call them, racing through. It's the same. Racing through your body when you're working.

Yes. I mean, even now, talking to you, I can feel that, you know, I want to have a good conversation with you. I can feel that driver, you know, that's in place, and it can paralyze you, but it can also be great fuel. And I usually use it for fuel, to tell you the truth. I'm a fuel person.

I like pressure. I have a saying, pressure's a privilege. I know. I love that saying. It is a privilege.

It is a privilege to have our opportunities for you to do what you have done and continue to do. And what I do and what I did. Yeah. You know what I don't like about getting older is people give up on you. Oh, come on.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Who's giving up on. No, there's ageism involved. There really is. Talk about that. Talk about that.

Billie Jean King
All right, let's take commercials on television. Let's just take commercials and not just television, obviously. It's everything now. Yeah. I'd like people to, when they watch commercials, to really pay attention to who's in them.

Let's just talk about the ones athletes are in. It's usually male athletes. They're older, but they are the ones who get the ads. If you'd see a woman, she's usually a lot younger, probably around 30. They don't give us the same opportunities.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right. Do you know how many times they'll have a woman athlete or any woman, and they'll say, she's such a great role model for women. Now go to a male. If a male's a role model, they don't say, oh, he's a great role model for men. They don't say, he's a great role model.

He's a great role model. I mean, hello. It's like everyone can be a role model for somebody if that's what the person likes. Like, for me, Althea Gibson was my first shero, and she was the first to win. And I didn't think of her that way.

Billie Jean King
I thought of her as the number one player. And if you can see it, you can be it, right? So I saw her live when I was 13, and I realized how good I'd have to be. And I went, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna have to be that. Oh, I'm gonna have to practice so hard.

Oh, my God. But you knew you were gonna do it. Yeah. Well, I certainly hope to. Of course, that was my goal since the time I was eleven, to be number one in the world.

There was no question. Still to see Althea made a huge difference in my life in that she was the number one. And if you can see it, you can be it. You know how good you have to be and what made her great. I'm just so struck by the realization that you had when you were twelve.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I mean, you saw that so many people were being excluded from tennis, and you decided to work on changing that. No, it wasn't tennis, it was life. It was like watching Little Rock and like the little Rock nine. Or watching that black kids couldn't go to school with the white kids. And I asked my dad, why is that?

Billie Jean King
That's ridiculous. He says, well, it's the south. And because in southern California, that never happened to me. I mean, you know, it didn't matter. And that really bothered me.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, of course. And you also noticed that it was like, only white people playing tennis, right, when you went to that country? Yeah, absolutely. Just everybody wore white clothes, everybody played with white balls, and everybody played was white. I said, that's not right.

Billie Jean King
This belongs to everyone. It's such a great sport. Although I. I didn't have the know how at twelve years old that there were black people playing, but I had never seen them. But there were.

They formed their own association, the ATA, in 1916. So they had their tournaments, but they weren't allowed to play in the white tournaments. Just like if you go to the US Open today, which a lot of people do, it's huge. It's one of the majors. Yeah.

And, well, black people weren't allowed to play until 1950. And that's when Althea was a player of the fifties. And that's when she won everything. And she won the US nationals. Now, that would be the US Open, and she was the first to win.

Without her, there wouldn't have been an Arthur Ash or Zenith Garrison, or Serena or Venus or all these great players. And so I think that was a good example. It's time for a quick break, but don't worry, there's more with Billie Jean King in just a bit.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
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And I'm wondering where you think, how did that happen? Where did that sort of intuition that you had, where did that come from? Was that the culture in your family or what? I think my parents were good to each other, kind to each other, which I think was huge. Just watching how they related.

Billie Jean King
Not to say it was perfect or anything, God knows that, but they get into it, but not, they're very good to each other and very kind and thought about others. But also, you know, leaders don't choose followers. Followers choose leaders. And a lot of times in sports, you need somebody to choose a team, for instance. And the kids always chose me to be the leader or the captain.

And I was on a bicycle committee, and I was only supposed to be the secretary, but I was. They ended up always saying, you, you lead, you do this. I go, no, no, no, you do. You do. Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Bicycle committee. Yeah. We had a plan in elementary school, which I have no idea what it means now. No, I think we had to keep our bikes in a certain area. We had to take care of them.

Billie Jean King
We had to put them in these racks. You know, you got to just do the right thing and all that at the school. Keep them in the right place. I love that. So I was on that committee, and then, you know, but I was always.

I was always pushed into leadership positions. And finally, in Tennessee, when we're older, you know, the players say, no, you're the one. You're the one. I go, no, no, no. Why not?

You? Why not? You know, typical girls, you know, when they're trying to go out to dinner, where do you want to go to eat? Oh, I don't care. What do you want?

Where do you want to go? So if there's a guy in the group, I always ask the guy, go, where do you want? He goes, I want to go. Here we go. Great.

Someone made a decision, because we're taught always to think about somebody else. Okay. Always take care of the other. So, anyway, the players pushed me. And finally, I just remember one night, just kind of daydreaming, lying down on the bed and just thinking, you know what?

I'm going to not only accept this, I'm going to thrive on it, because I meant to, you know, I thought back to my epiphany as a kid, how I felt about everything. I go, what am I doing? I meant to do this. And that was it. I just embraced it and absolutely decided to be the best leader I could be.

But to be a great leader to me means, for instance, it can't be a me. You have to be we, or you can't be I. You have to be us. You know, or you have to include others in your. It's always about, what can I do to help the people have a better life?

How can I make it better for all of us, but particularly them first? And that's what makes me tick, is creating opportunities for others. That's really what I love, like starting the women's sports foundation. I founded it 50 years ago, and we have our 50th anniversary this year. I am so stoked.

We've given out over $100 million of just helping kids, especially girls of color. Also, we work with the National Women's Law center over title IX. Those are the things that. That matter to me a lot. Have you ever very deeply doubted yourself as a leader?

Oh, for sure. You always wonder, especially when you didn't make it happen. You know, if I didn't make it happen, I go, God, where did I go wrong? But you know what? You're only as good as the team is.

Also, relationships are everything. They really are. Yeah, right. It starts from that. But, like, when was an example where it didn't go the way you wanted and then you had doubts.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
What would be an example of that? Billie Jean? Well, the thing I love the most, probably, in tennis, is world team tennis started in 1974. Ilana and I ended up running it over time. Over the last part of it, we sold it to billionaires because we thought, we really need more money in this if we're going to do it right.

Billie Jean King
And they wanted it, so we sold it to them. But, you know, they let it go eventually. And so I was very upset with myself, and I thought, God, if I could start over, because it's so easy in hindsight, you know, there wasn't, there wasn't the money in 74 that there is now. Now people are investing in women's sports. They're actually investing in it, not helping us.

They think it's a great investment now. For the very first, they think it's an economic opportunity. Yes, they do, by the way, it. Is, which it is. We're over 100 years late.

I mean, it's like, it is really a lot of work in long term investment, but it's worth it because it gives women and girls a platform they didn't have and to help these kids. I keep telling every one of you, is a leader in your town, your state, your country, your world, you, if you decide whatever makes you happy to do things. But look how much you can give back to kids coming up. But more importantly, it's about how can we help others that don't have as much? And women should try to make a lot of money.

I tell women to be ambitious. We need to have more women on boards. Yes, we do. We need more women on boards. We need more women in positions of leadership.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
We need more women, period. Making decisions. Oh, yeah. Which. Oh, God, this reminds me, by the way, I wanted to ask you about renee richards, the first transgender woman to play for the WTA back in the seventies.

Billie Jean King
Correct. Can you tell us that story about how you convinced the players at the WTA to allow Renee to come on board? Can you tell us that story? So good. Yes.

Ilana, my wife, she's the only person ever to play Renee as a male and Renee as a woman. I keep saying it is amazing. Okay. That's, by the way, an incredible fact. But tell.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I mean, how did you get the other women on the tour to let Renee play tell that part? Well, I went and talked to doctors. I said, how should we perceive this? I'm very ignorant. And they said, no, she's considered a woman.

Billie Jean King
I said, okay. I said, do you think she should be able to play as a woman? And they said, yes. I called Renee, which, for me, is hard to call if you know me well. I'm very actually shy, and I have a hard time calling people, so.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Okay. I have. I do have a problem believing what you just said. You can ask Alana. She'll tell you I sucked it up.

Billie Jean King
Also, it's not about me here. It's about others. I'm good when it's about the team. Okay. Yeah, I hear that.

And I called her, and I said, can I listen to you and talk to you and ask? She's great. So, we talked for 4 hours. I listened to her, and I went back to the women. I said, you guys, we really should let her play.

According. I've gone to the doctor. I've done some homework. And they said, no. And I said, okay, I hear you.

And I had this thing with the women that always used to work. I finally figured it out, which is I said, how about if we tried to let her play for two weeks? I would cut the time down really tight, short. So it's like a sample. Yeah.

It won't be too much for them psychologically, emotionally to handle. And they go, okay, we'll try that. Okay. So, she comes on the tour, and within three or four days, they come, and she is so nice. She is so great.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah. Because they were worried about the locker room. You know, there's a lot of things to go through your mind that we. That we're so ignorant, we don't understand. Oh, they loved her.

Billie Jean King
They were fine. They were fine after that. That was fine. Now, it's very different, though, because there's a lot more transgender athletes, and should they be allowed to play in elite competition? Some people are very emphatic about it that they shouldn't.

I'm on the side of inclusion is my first want, so I don't want anyone to be excluded. So we got to figure this out. Yeah, we got to figure it out. Because I don't want anyone not to be able to participate. That's what kills me.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So, you've spent so much of your life making the world, as you continue to do today, a better place for everybody else. Have you always taken care of yourself? Do you think that this is a way of putting off taking care of yourself to a certain extent? Oh, for sure, when I was younger, but I took care of myself when I was playing because it was part of the goal, like, eat so many calories a day, work out, take good care of myself that I have to. It's part of my job.

I see. I was very good then. But then, you know, I have an eating disorder, and I'm a binge eater. Every morning I wake up, I tell myself I have an eating disorder. I still go to therapy.

Billie Jean King
I still think about it. It's interesting with the new injections, you know, with the onsen bakes of the world, right? It's very interesting because my doctor wants me to try it. Do you want to? I don't want to lose weight fast.

Cause I think it looks horrible. I don't think it's healthy. I would like to lose it slowly. But the important thing my therapist asked me, which I hadn't thought about, is that she said, has it quieted your mind? Because I've taken a few injections now.

I went, whoa, that's interesting, because with an eating disorder, I have, like, two voices in my head sometimes that argue. And what do they say? It's two sides. Let's say I want a quart of an ice cream. One side will say, yeah, baby, I'm going to have that ice cream no matter what.

And the other side says, no, don't do that. It's not healthy. You don't need it. You're not going to miss it. The other side goes, screw you, I'm having this ice cream.

So I have this discussion that goes on in my head, and sometimes it's very elevated. I mean, it really elevates. And that's why I thought it was very interesting because this is. We talk about this in eating disorders. And it was such a great question, because if it does do that.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Quiet the voices. Quiet the voice. If that's a part of it. Now I'm talking. Now I'm on it, because that would be really great because that gets exhausting and tiring, and I don't want to fight over these things.

Billie Jean King
You know, it's like, God, do I have to go through this again every day? It's not every day, right? It's just different moments. And then I say, are my under more stress? Is that why this is happening?

No, that doesn't follow at all. No, I've tried that. So the point is I still get it. It doesn't matter. So I got to pay attention.

That's the main thing. When exactly did you start to sort of look after yourself? Take really? I'd say when I was around 50 and I was going through all my sexuality stuff, like, oh, my God, it was a mess. And that, I think, caused a lot of my eating disorder as well.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
So what happened at 50? I went to Renfrew in Philadelphia back in 95 ish, and I went to therapy and I lived there for six weeks. And when you go there, you cannot communicate with the outside world, really. And I would go to therapy three times a week. I would go to.

Billie Jean King
There's also couples you have to go to, which Ilana about fainted. She's what? She goes, what? Wait a minute. Renfrew is an eating disorder clinic, is it?

Yes. You go and live there. Okay. Yeah. And every Friday you have family.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Oh, boy, it's rough. And then you have every hour on the hour, you have a different, like, movement therapy, sculpture therapy, everything therapy, whatever. Did your parents come? They finally came after. I just kept pleading with them to come.

Billie Jean King
They came once. And how did that go? It went all right. It went pretty good. Except my dad leaned over to me and he's so cute.

He goes, Billy, you're not like these other girls here. And I looked at him and I go, dad, I'm exactly like these girls here. What? He started laughing. I started laughing.

Cause we always had a sense, you know, we could always laugh at anything. We started howling. And I go, wait, and there's a. What do you mean there? No, because he thinks I'm fine.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
He thinks I'm great. And I go, dad. Oh. I go, dad, I'm just like them. I'm.

Billie Jean King
I'm struggling. And he goes, okay, honey, I hear you. Or sis. He'd call me when things were good with sis, when it was Billie Jean, if I came to the door, I knew I was in big trouble. And what about your mom?

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
What was that like? A harder time than my dad with my being gay or trying to figure out who I am? Bisexual? In the beginning, I don't know, but no. And I noticed you call your mother mommy.

Billie Jean King
I call my mother mommy, too. And I love calling my mother mommy. She also loved hearing it and receiving it. Yeah, it's cozy, isn't it? It's like a big hug.

It's just adorable. It's like a big hug. That's exactly right. And my boys call me mommy. And I love it.

I love mommy. I call my mom and mommy up to the end of her life. Yeah. And you call your daddy daddy, right? I call him Daddy.

Yeah. I called him dad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously, I'm 80. They're not alive anymore, unfortunately.

I wish they were. They were. I got ran. My brother and I talk about how fortunate we were to have them, and they never really asked us if we won. You know, so many parents go, did you win?

Did you win? Did you win? I know. They go, how'd your day go? Of course, if I lost, I was just crazed.

I said, I lost my match. I lost my match. I was so bad. My dad would go, I just have one question. Did you try your best?

I said, of course I tried my best. He goes, that's good enough. Yeah, you're lucky. You're very lucky. I have to say.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Our son that I mentioned to you, he was a basketball player when he was young, and if he lost a game, my husband and I would negotiate who was going to drive him home if we were there in separate cars, which he often would. I love it. That is so funny, because he would be screaming and writhing in the backseat if they lost. Oh, I should have been with him great time. He was hysterical.

I mean, it was so fucking bad with him in the backseat, I'm telling you. So how did you decide you want to be in entertainment? Can I ask you this? Yeah, you can ask me anything. Yeah, I'd rather ask you questions, really.

I just always wanted to be an actor. Just like, from my earliest memory, I was always performing. Yeah, you were, because your mother explained that you asked her how on Zaya is a girl. Remember in one of your interviews? Yeah.

Billie Jean King
When you talked to her and she said you were dialogue, dialogue going, and you had this going, and she said you were always basically acting. But she didn't say that. When we were in, when we were in nursery school, they used to have nap time, you know, and I would get. I would stand on my blanket and I would dance for people during nap time. Yeah.

So you like dancing, too? Well, I liked performing, so my nap time dance was. It seemed to be a big hit among the nursery school students. It would have been great. Oh, my God.

I remember kindergarten. That's what we were supposed to have these little naps. I'm like, huh? I want to go out and play. Can I go play basketball?

Can I go play baseball, softball? Can I go? You know, I was. I have to tell you, when I was in, I didn't play much tennis. Cause I.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
The one thing that I get, I get. When I start to compete physically in a sport, I get very anxious. It's not for me. And. But I did go to tennis camp when I was in 8th grade or 7th grade, and they gave awards out at the end, and they gave me Miss congeniality.

Billie Jean King
Okay. But it's like I could just see that. But it's interesting that you feel anxious, and when I listen to you, how. When you. How you feel when you perform, it's how I feel when I play tennis.

I don't feel that anxiety that you feel at the tennis camp at all. Yeah, right. I want to be where I am. I love it. I love the.

I want. In fact, I'd love tennis to be more boisterous. I think it's too quiet. I think we should have names on the back of the shirt. I think we are just so out of it because, you know, they keep.

I keep saying, you guys, everybody. I said, you're talking to 40 year olds. You're talking to 50 year olds. I said, what about the 710 year olds? Their concentration spans 7 seconds now.

I mean, yeah, no kidding. We got to do different. We got to do. But I've wanted this forever for our sport, okay. Because I grew up in the other sports, like, having.

Hey, how about have, you know, and Wimbledon went backwards? They go, oh, no, we're going to go back to all white. What? I said, oh, great. So now you turn on you all white clothes.

Yeah. Oh, no. Predominantly white anymore. So I turn it on. I go, oh, great.

Both people have white at each end. Okay, great. Who's who? Mm hmm. It's ridiculous.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
It's ridiculous. We're out to lunch. How do you make that change? That's actually an interesting change to try. To, you know, I'm just gonna keep trying.

Right? Because we have the Billie Jean Keene cup, which is the World cup of women's tennis now, and they renamed it after me. And now we're involved in that, and we want to make that, you know, like the soccer World cup. It's the World cup of tennis, and the men's, it's Davis cup, and we're working with them, and I think there's a real culture to it that we are missing out on. That would be fun for the audience, because when you perform, as, you know, everything is about your audience, and that tennis court is our stage.

Billie Jean King
When I look at a tennis court, I go, oh, that's my stage. Yeah, baby, give me the ball, you know, type of feeling. And so when you walk out there, it's, you know, here's what most players think, or athletes, they think everyone's there for them. No, we're there for the audience. Our job is to make the audience have a great day, a great moment.

And when they go home at night, they go, God, that was great. That was whatever. And I want to go back or I want to take up this or I want to do that. You know, it's like, we are there for them, and everybody in tennis thinks the audience is there for them. And I'm like, oh, my God, you're so.

I I I. It's we them, you know? Like, I don't know. That's how I think. So can we.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Let's talk about for a second female empowerment. Have you always in your life felt equal to men? I've never felt equal to men. Aha. Talk about that.

Billie Jean King.

Billie Jean King
Let me correct that. I do feel equal. The world doesn't feel we're equal. That's what it is. The world looks at us differently.

I don't particularly look at us that much differently, just personally on a personal level. But every single day, I have to deal with. With some misogyny. If I'm around a male athlete, I'm definitely in the background, you know? And yet people who are in the know sometimes will say, hey, bud, you should move over.

You're not even close to what she's done or something occasionally, but I don't. We're second class citizens all the time. Yeah. In pay, in attention. The money we make is always less.

That's why I want women's sports to do well, because I know the more we make, the more people appreciate us, the more they think about every single job, though, it's about thinking, oh, women deserve to have the same. Yeah. We shouldn't have to be going through this. But the way the law, what you started, how you started the program is exactly what the challenge is, you know, not to be able to get a credit card when I was playing. And also.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Right. In 1966, actually, title Ix hadn't happened. Title IX happened in 72. So I didn't get a scholarship. I didn't get paid to go to college.

Billie Jean King
I worked two jobs, and nobody gave. I think it had been reversed. Let's say I'm the one that got to go to school, to college on a scholarship, and the guys didn't. I guarantee you, everybody would be absolutely crazed that the men don't. When the men don't get something, they go crazy.

Well, they need to do that more and more for us, and they're listened to. You know, it's funny, I was talking to my friend Paula about this just yesterday, and we were saying, you know, it's interesting how many times in conversations, just in social conversation, if a man starts speaking and holding forth, right. Yeah. Everybody shuts up. Right?

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Everyone shuts up. And including myself, by the way, which I'm now, as I say, this, very irritated with myself about that. But there is this sort of unspoken. Well, that makes sense that he's bloviating, right? That's too big a word for me.

But isn't it a good. No. Isn't that a good word, though? Doesn't that totally describe what it is? Yeah, it does.

Billie Jean King
But here's what happens. And boards. A woman will have an idea, she comes up with it. But until the guy says exactly the same thing she did, they go, oh, Joe, that was a great idea, even though the woman said it earlier. And they steal the ideas all the time and take credit for it.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I mean, and in my own life, I mean, of course there's misogyny. Well, in entertainment. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. And I had to struggle enormously and really push back to try to get credit as producer on various projects I've worked on.

And I got big time pushback despite the fact that I had had decades, decades of experience. Yeah, and you truly were the producer of the show. One of the producers, at least, of the show. Exactly. And I got pushback from studios, from various other producers.

I mean, it was a. But it's infuriating. And it's also. Sometimes it's just. I'm not gonna lie, it's intimidating.

Billie Jean King
Yeah, it is. You know. Cause there is that little voice that says, oh, really? Do I not deserve this? Am I wrong to be asking?

You know, I hope you don't get that. That much anymore, that part. No, I don't. I don't. But it has been there.

I know, but look how much you've won. I mean, we'd say win in sports. I mean, you know, all the Emmys and the awards and. Yeah, I mean, you really have to suck it up. I suck it up all the time.

Yeah. Cause sometimes you can't. You just have to keep quiet because you're not gonna win. You know that, too. There's certain times you just go, okay, I'm gonna have to let this one go.

I don't like it, but I'm gonna have to let it go. We'll get more wisdom from Billie Jean King after this super quick break. Stay tuned.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
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Okay, let's go back in time for a second for our listeners. Now, it's 1973. That's Roe v. Wade and the equal Rights Amendment era. And women are in a real fight for equality at this time.

And you, Billie Jean, you get approached by this guy, Bobby Riggs, who had been a good player back in the day, but at this point was really more of a showman, right? And he challenges you to an internationally televised match, the battle of the sexes. And this is after he'd already beaten the formidable Margaret court. So you had to win. And people, you really have to understand how big this was.

It was huge. And you played him. And thank God. Oh, my God. I am so happy you won that, Billie Jean.

Billie Jean King
So am I. That was big. It was a huge turning point, really, because title IX had just been passed the year before. Yeah, we were in our third year of women's professional tennis. It was very crucial that I win because we had our tour, and I think if I'd lost, I don't know if the tour would have made it or not, because it really helped enhance what we were trying to do.

Also, men's professional tennis was young as well. The day after that match, you couldn't get on a tennis court. That's when we had the big tennis boom. That's just for tennis, but for society. Finally, in 75, we were allowed to get a credit card on our own.

Whoopi, congratulations. But what it did is it piqued the interest of people. Both genders are, well, all genders, we'd say now, but then both genders, men and women and women, it really helped their self confidence. I could not believe how they changed. They would run up to me, thanking me, and then they go, you know what?

I've been wanting a raise for ten years and I finally had the courage to ask for it, you know, and I said, well, more importantly, did you get it? And she said, I did get it. Because girls are taught not to ask for what we want and need. We are taught, do not go there. Okay?

Do not ask. And they did. Well, there was a cultural shift because you won. And did, you know, did you keep in mind what was sort of on the line, or did you have to sort of tuck that away and focus on the. How did that work in your head as you were actually playing?

Well, I knew six weeks out and six weeks out, I'm a mess. I'm thinking about all the consequences. I'm picturing myself running every ball down. I'm picturing myself making every shot. I'm picturing bad calls.

I picture how I'm going to react to that. I'm not going to react. I'm going to stay. I'm going to get in the next point right away. I'm going to stay focused.

I'm not going to talk. I picture myself making every shot, running every shot down. I picture myself getting every serve in everything, but also responding to things that aren't great. I also go out the day before and meet all the security guards. I meet all the administrators.

I meet everybody there. And nothing is an astrodome. Nothing's worse than not is getting lost in an arena. I get to know everybody. I went in the stands, I went up to the top in the cheap seats to see what it would feel like as a fan, in other words, I totally prepare.

I'm really big on preparation. I think process is just how you win. You stay in the now. You stay in the present. Well, I know when you're acting.

Aren't you in the present? Totally. And when you don't do well, we're not. Right. In that sense, it's like a meditation.

Correct. Because it's just a singular focus, right? Yes. If you talk to other people that are the best in what they do, it always comes down to being in the present. I call it in the now.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Do you meditate, by the way? Yeah, I do meditate, yes. Uh huh. Every day, probably. Yeah, I think so.

Billie Jean King
And I can meditate for 15 seconds. Even help. Yeah. And even in a match, if you're changing ends and you sit down, that's a great time to meditate for 15, 20 seconds. You get about.

You get 90 seconds. So take. Take a part of that and just meditate. Just get. Just get your breathing down.

Get, you know, here. Just be. Just be. And, yes, I can do that, but I can partner Lyz very quickly. My brain goes very fast.

I can compartmentalize really quickly, which I didn't realize others couldn't do, which I think has been a big help to me. I also knew that if I were going, if this were going to be my life, to try to make this world a better place, that I wouldn't win as many titles, and I was willing not to win as many titles if off the court, if it would make the world a better place, that, to me, is winning more than ever winning a match like against Bobby Riggs. But by the way, you've done both. You've made the world a better place, and you've won a gazillion titles. I'm not finished yet.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
I know you're not. Okay. No, I'm kidding. No, I'm kidding you. So it sounds like, I mean, you are obviously an incredibly competitive person, and certainly as a tennis player, but also as a businesswoman and as a leader, you have a sense of, let's get it done.

Let's win this thing. Am I right? Yes, you're right. And to me, what does that mean? Creating opportunities for the generation now and the generations that will follow.

Billie Jean King
That gives them opportunity. It gives them hope. It gives them. And then get scholarships. Just helps them be a better player, a better person, better human being.

Yeah. But because there's, you know, as an athlete, you're done early. So what are you gonna do with the rest of your life? You're like, singers can keep singing. You can keep working in comedy forever.

Forever. We know that at a very young age. We cannot do that. Okay, so what are we gonna do? So those are the kinds of things we have to think about.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah, exactly. Which, by the way, leads me to this question, though. So this is from. I have a niece who's a d three athlete at Emory. She plays soccer.

Billie Jean King
Emory's great. Yes, great. And I texted her, her name is Grace. And I texted her yesterday, and I said, gracie, I'm talking to Billie Jean King tomorrow. And I said, do you have any questions?

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
And she said the following to your point, she said, what advice do you have for young athletes transitioning into the working world and leaving behind life as student athletes? Because, you know, I think she feels, you know, sort of untethered, without the sport that she's been playing her whole life. Well, there's two things, okay, that she could think about. I can stay in soccer, but not play soccer. There's a thousand jobs.

Billie Jean King
That's another great thing. There's jobs all around your sport if you want to stay in it. There's three things that Ed Willard and I, you know, our mentor, Ed Willard, who's the president of Dupont and CEO, and dear friend who just passed. He. He and I.

I said to Ed, I need three things for graduations, but I need three things I can give them that will help them the rest of their lives. You know, I want to do this. I want this to make it simple, easy. The three things are, and they do not have to be in this order. Relationships are everything.

So, while Gracie's playing soccer, meet as many people as you can. Get to know everyone. Really enjoy them as human beings. Get to know them, because you never know, okay? You just don't know.

And it's fun. I think it's fun, and it's fun. Well, I love people, so it works for me. But the second one, to keep learning and to keep learning how to learn, like, technology for my age group is rough, okay? So I'm always asking eight year old, come over here.

Help me. Yes. And then the third one is be a problem solver and an innovator. And that means in real life and in work or whatever you do. And those three things, I think as I go through each day, I know I hit on those, at least one of them every day.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
This is great wisdom, what you're imparting. I mean, for real. Do you think that'll help Gracie, though? That's why I'm letting you know I. Know, I really appreciate it.

I'm gonna tell her. But being in a sport, she can stay in the sport in another, different capacity if she loves it like this and want to leave it. But more importantly, what else does she want to do? But those three things, I think, will cover just about any direction she wants to go. Okay, so now listen, I want to ask you something.

I'd like to know if there's something you'd go back and tell yourself at 21. 21. Let me think where I was. 21. Okay.

Billie Jean King
20 one's right before I went to Wimbledon and all that. I probably didn't understand enough at that time about being my authentic self. Like, who am I? I didn't know who I was yet. And nowadays, I think that's the one great thing with today, is that I think I would have had a chance, a bigger chance, a better chance, to be my authentic self.

Being a younger person today. Got it. Not to say it wouldn't be difficult, sure. Or whatever, because we never know. I think trans people have a really hard time today.

I think the lgbt community is having a harder time. Again. I don't like it. I think that we should just be kind and good to each other as human beings. First.

We all bleed red. Doesn't matter what color our skin is. Doesn't matter how we self identify sexually. It doesn't matter that we be. That we just start.

I always think when I meet somebody that I think of it as a. I go blank. I try to go blank in my head to start with a blank piece of paper, in a way, before I start drawing who this person is and that I really always want to think the best of them first. And then if they prove differently over time, then that's a whole nother discussion. But I think it's really important to start out with just being kind and good to whoever you meet and don't have any preconceived ideas about them, and we're all biased.

But the important thing is to do a gut check when we are. I always go stop. Start with nothing first. Just be kind of good. Unless they prove to you that they're just.

They're bad news. They're bad news. But is there anything. Before we go, is there anything that you want me to know about aging? You know what I found?

I think aging has been, in some ways, the greatest. In some ways is tough. Tough physically. There's no question. And also, your mind, your.

You know, mentally, whether I don't want to get dementia, for instance. I'm scared of that. Because my parents had it, things like that. But I'll tell you what's really been fantastic. What?

And that is emotionally, I am so happy compared to the. My young days, I cannot tell you, really, but I've worked at it through therapy, through thinking, through just going through tough times. But I just emotionally am in such a great place now. Oh, my God. I hope you are now, too.

But I don't know where everyone is. Yes, I am. No, I am. I'm in a very, you know, touch wood. I'm in a very good place.

Sounds like you are. Yeah. Yeah, I am. I totally am. And I'm.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
But I'm so happy that you say that. And you're not actually, you know. Cause on this show, we speak to older women about their wisdom, and that's. You're not the first person who has said that there's something that you're able to sort of sit comfortably in and let go of a lot at a certain age, which is a complete blessing, right? Yes.

Billie Jean King
And also, when you're older, you have perspective that you didn't have as a younger person. You have perspective, you've lived longer, things don't bother you as much. Right. That's why kids love their grandparents so much. Right.

Because the grandparent goes, yeah. And they say, oh, my God, I gotta tell them this, but, oh, my God. And then you tell them, they go, okay. And they go. You're not upset or any.

No. Are you okay. Whereas a parent. What? You know, it's so different.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Yeah. A lot of hand wringing. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, completely. Yeah.

Billie Jean King
They're more understanding. It's true. It's completely true. I can't thank you enough for talking with me today. I really enjoyed every second of this conversation.

Yeah, me, too. It's been great. I really appreciate it. Say hi, everybody, and tell your team of people, because everything starts with team. Really?

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Totally. Tell them, thanks again for all their help. I really appreciate it. Good luck in your lives. Go for it.

Oh, my God. Billie Jean King. That woman is just so impressive. That human is impressive. My mom is gonna love to hear about this one.

It's time to get her on a Zoom call.

Hi, mommy. Hi, love. How are you? Good. It's rainy.

Judith Bowles
Rainy here. Is it raining there? I wish. No, it's full sun. But we talked to Billie Jean King today.

Uh huh. Wow. And you would just love this woman, Billie Jean King. Mom. It was just.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
She is such a positive.

Let's talk about the Bobby Riggs match, because, you know, he originally wanted to have this match with her. Billie Jean King is obviously a serious professional athlete, has no time for this bullshit match with Bobby Riggs. And then Margaret Court, who was another professional tennis player at the time, and she did play him and she lost. And so then when Bobby Riggs came to Billie Jean and say, now I'm going to beat you, Billie Jean King realized what was at stake here. She knew that the symbolism of this match was critical and that she had to win it.

Judith Bowles
I mean, it was sort of a joke match, you know, in many ways. And then it wasn't because. Right, exactly. Because she won. And.

And then that it sort of humorous way, it changed the flow of history. Well, it did, didn't it? I mean, she says that, generally speaking, women's self confidence was lifted up in a way. And it's funny because I think it really seeped into the win, really seeped into the culture in terms of feminism and women's empowerment and sense of. And he was such a braggadocio, and he was going to win, and he was going to win, and he was going to win.

And that made it even more delicious, the fact that she just played the. Game and she played him and killed him in three straight sets. And I asked her, does she feel equal to men? And she says she feels equal to men, but that the world doesn't feel that way. What has been your experience as a woman in a world where men are in charge?

From my generation, I would say that one thing. In the beginning, I just went along with it. I mean, I accepted that. And when I went to Duke, I went as a pre med. Well, all I had to do in the south at that time, in the fifties, was say I was going to go to med school.

And they'd say, well, no, women don't go to med school. And I said, oh, okay. So, I mean, that's. That shows you that whatever they said was fine. And it's only I said to a friend of mine one time that I think my generation was sort of sideswiped by feminism, the feminist movement.

In other words, it sort of happened to us. We didn't. Well, people like Billie Jean King made it happen. But what. But most of us were sort of living, living with the reality of it and sort of keeping our skills and our power to ourselves.

So women with other women could be. Do all kinds of things, but it let a man enter the room, and it was a very charged and different atmosphere. And describe what that means, like, how is it charged and how is it different? The women were sort of the generators when they were together and talking. But if a man came in, there was a kind of a giving over.

It's like, oh, well, we had to say, what do you have to say? What do you think? That's what's really important. And then, in so many instances, even now in a room, it'll be the men that, I mean, for a woman to be heard in a room sometimes even is like, people sort of sit back and, I mean, it's, it's sort of noticed not so much now. Maybe because, of course, we've had maybe.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Now, mom, maybe now. I mean, I'm certainly aware of that. You know, I'm certainly aware of the fact that if, like, in a, in a writer's room, for example, male writers are much more comfortable taking charge and saying what's what and speaking up in a way that women aren't necessarily. I mean, I realize that's a big generalization. Of course, it's not always the case, but it's funny how it's sort of that inequity has tiny little roots that have filtered into the culture in a way that is poisonous without our even realizing it.

Judith Bowles
I think that's really a wonderful way to put it. And, you know, what's interesting is that when you get older, and I would say that there are more women now living longer than men, and they are taking charge. I mean, they do. They take charge and they don't think too much about it. I mean, it's just like, I've sort of been waiting always.

I've always done this, or I've been waiting to do this, or they, it's within them as something that hasn't always been tapped. So you're just waiting for the guys. To die and then they're gonna.

That's one way. But, you know, one thing, one thing that I'm excited about, you having talked to Billie Jean King, is because she truly was iconic. Is iconic. I mean, the figure that represents so much right turning, correct being. And she seemed to have that, like a motor in her that was just going to go, you know, she's got the life force in her.

And I say there's a woman that has used it all of her life. All of her life. And for the greater good, by the way. Well, thanks to her. For, you know, women getting paid in athletics now.

Thanks to women getting looked up to in athletics. Women in athletics, period. Even, you know, back in the day, the only professional sport women could play was golf. Yeah, right. That was it.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
You can play any sport. Professionally, that is. Be paid for it. And by the way, she loves that I call you mommy. Oh, because she calls her mom or call.

Her mother's passed away now, but she called her mom mommy and her dad daddy, just like we do. I love that. There's something so cozy about that. You know? That's what I said to her.

Says it's like a giant hug. It is. It is. And when you hear mommy, you know, like when you hear, I don't know what your boys call you, but when. Mommy, they call me mommy or mama.

Yeah, right. It's just. It's too wonderful. It's too wonderful. So keep it up.

Judith Bowles
For all, for everything. 100% mommy. I always will. All right, Mama, I'm going to say goodbye to you. I love you.

Thank you. I love you too, honey.

Julia Louis-Dreyfus
There's more wiser than me with lemonade Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content from each episode of the show. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. Follow the show at Wiserthanme on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook. Too wiser than me is a production of Lemonade Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Jamila Zara Williams, Alex McCowen, and Oja Lopez.

Brad hall is a consulting producer, Rachel Neal is vp of new content and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittle Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Farber, and our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts, and if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up.

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Julia Gets Wise with Billie Jean King

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1: Early Life and Sports

2: Battle of the Sexes

3: Advocacy and Future Goals

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