Esther Calling - Love is a Trap

This episode discusses the impact of past relationship patterns on current romantic engagements, with a particular focus on how unresolved emotional issues from one's upbringing can manifest in adult relationships.

1. Emotional Residue: Past relationships, especially familial ones, heavily influence current romantic dynamics.
2. Recognition of Patterns: Identifying and understanding one's behavioral patterns is crucial to breaking them.
3. Role of Childhood: Early experiences with parents can set templates for later romantic attachments.
4. Mindful Awareness: Being present and reflective can prevent past traumas from sabotaging current relationships.
5. Communication is Key: Open and honest communication about fears and desires is essential for relationship stability.

1: Introduction

Esther introduces the episode's theme and the caller's background with recurring romantic issues. Esther Perel: "What brings you to call today?"

2: Unpacking Emotional Baggage

The caller discusses his pattern of fleeing relationships and its ties to his childhood experiences. Caller: "It's like I'm running from something, but I don't know what."

3: Analyzing the Impact of Parental Relationships

Esther explores how the caller's relationship with his parents influences his romantic life. Esther Perel: "Tell me about your parents."

4: Strategies for Change

Discussion on strategies to confront and alter deep-seated emotional patterns. Esther Perel: "It's about changing the narrative, isn't it?"

1. Reflect on your past: Understand how your upbringing influences your romantic relationships.
2. Mindfulness in interactions: Stay present in your relationships to prevent past traumas from resurfacing.
3. Communicate openly: Discuss your feelings and fears with your partner to foster understanding.
4. Seek therapy if needed: Professional help can provide tools to deal with unresolved issues.
5. Break the cycle: Actively work on not repeating the patterns you recognize from your parents.

He gets to a certain point in relationships before he starts fantasizing about his ex-boyfriends or other future partners. Esther talks him through what he might be holding onto from his childhood that makes his otherwise healthy relationships feel stifling.

Esther Callings are a one-time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to producer@estherperel.com.

For the first time on the U.S. stage, Esther invites you to an evening unlike any other. Join her as she shines a light on the cultural shifts transforming relationships and helps us rethink how we connect, how we desire – and even how we love. To find a city near you, go to https://www.estherperel.com/tour2024

People

Esther Perel, Caller

Companies

Leave blank if none.

Books

Leave blank if none.

Guest Name(s):

Leave blank if none.

Content Warnings:

None

Caller

In my initial email, I referenced a scenario where I was in a new relationship with a guy who was perfect. We had an amazing relationship. The communication was good. The romance was there. There was a curiosity between us.

But, you know, after a couple of months, this feeling crept in of desire for my ex. And that desire slowly just got louder and louder and louder. This voice in my head telling me that this ex partner was my soulmate, that I needed to be with them. I start new relationships. They start well, they start healthy, they're fun, they're exciting.

And then either the past creeps in. So I have a hard time letting go of either previous partners or previous flings, or I start to fantasize life with other people that I may not even necessarily know. And it just erodes the relationships that I do have, and I usually end up exiting those relationships. I end up in this pool of, like, regret that, you know, I've just let this amazing person go. And it's just a continuous cycle that I'm looking to explore, hopefully break, or become better equipped to deal with for my future relationships.

Joy is the first glimpse of blue sky peeking through the overcast of a late winter day. Joy is the first brave tulip of the season, the first harvest of fresh blueberries. All the little pops of color to. Remind you that spring is on its way. New Yorkers know this better than anyone.

It's time to bring the spring back into your wardrobe. And nothing says New York spring like Kate spade New York. Their new spring collection is perfect for all your adventures, day or night. Discover and shop the spring collection at Kate Spade New York.

You know how to book flights and hotels. All you're missing is a tool to help you plan that unbelievable travel experience. That's why you need Viator book guided tours, excursions, and more. In one place. There are over 300,000 travel experiences to choose from, so you can find something for everyone.

And Viator offers free cancellation and 24/7 customer support for worry free travel. Download the Viator app now and use code Viator ten for 10% off your first booking in the app. Find travel experiences for you. Do more with Viator.

Esther Perel

Anything you would like to add? No. Look, it is still very relevant. It's accurate. It's, you know, I can't hide from it.

Caller

That's exactly how I feel and the kind of scenario that keeps repeating itself. What do you know about it? I mean, you're describing a pattern. You're describing a sequence. What do you know about what drives the secret?

For me, it's I understand the timing of it. It usually happens when you kind of start to pivot out of that, I guess, honeymoon phase. You know, we haven't had our first proper fight. We haven't really had any kind of test of the relationship in any way. I think that it's also to do with my ability to kind of cut, like, shut out the external.

Well, the feelings that do pop up there to do with, you know, desire for other people as well. So in the example that I referenced there, I referenced two partners, a current one and an ex partner. The reality of that scenario was that when the ex partner, in my mind no longer going, like, no one desiring me as a person, that's kind of when those intrusive thoughts came in. I think it's a loss of desire from someone. And that triggers me to start to think, maybe I should be with them, maybe I should be with somebody else.

In my mind, that's kind of the tipping point. Usually. There's one thing I would suggest we switch. None of this is external. Even if you think that other people access or potential other partners or imaginative imaginary figures are external, what drives this whole thing is internal.

Esther Perel

When you want me, there's a moment at which I suddenly feel like I need to flee. When you stop wanting me and I begin to feel the anxiety of the rejection or of the aloneness, then I become the pursuer. Yeah, it does sound essentially how it happens. As I've gotten older and I've had more experience with relationships, I have become more aware of it. But in.

Caller

I guess, in previous relationships, I. Instead of talking to my partners about it, I just exited because I've had this notion that, you know, I can't put them through this. I can't, like, explain this to them out of some fear of, I guess, confrontation or maybe even rejection. Are you in your late twenties? In my late twenties.

Esther Perel

You don't do this with friends? No, my friendships are strong. They're long lasting, other avenues in my life. I have consistent, long relationships with people that I would perceive as healthy and, you know, very fulfilling. And it's just.

Caller

It's my romantic relationship, so I am falling short. There is a saying that there are only two relationships who really resemble each other, and that's the one we had with our original caregivers, our parents, and the ones we have with our romantic partners. Most of us manage to elude our patterns when it comes to our friends because there's just enough distance that allows us not to have to repeat certain things. An obvious question then becomes where else have you known this besides in your romantic relationships? Not the similarity, because it's not about desire, but it is about the in out, push pull, pursuer, distancer, and the kind of fraught experience around your attachment to them.

You know, I think when I do hear that question, my automatic response is obviously my parents. It was pretty awful. You know, it was a loveless relationship. They are amazing people as individuals. They did an amazing job raising their kids, but as a couple and as an example of what a relationship should be, they were never meant to be together.

They. They got together when they were in their early twenties. They had kids, and they just never were able to navigate being able to either split or make a healthy relationship work. And, you know, what did you see? A lot of anger, a lot of resentment, a lot of fighting, a lot of crying, a lot of emotion, a lot of volatility.

Just such small, insignificant things would trigger these gargantuan responses. So, you know, my dad was late to dinner. It would be World War Two. You know, it was never physical, but, yeah, some of these fights were massive. And as a young child, that was kind of like my first view of what a relationship should be, I guess.

Esther Perel

How many kids? Just two. But my brother is significantly older than me, so, as you know, by the time I was ten, he was already living out of home. So it was kind of like an only child situation for a significant period of my early childhood. And did they sometimes kind of draw you in, as in not in the middle of a fight necessarily, but in telling you how they felt?

Caller

No. It's definitely one thing that my family are not brilliant at is telling anyone how they feel. It was always maybe go and cry in a bedroom or leave the house. It was never, let's talk about this, or, you know, let's explain what just happened. Did you have equal sympathy for both, or did you find yourself leaning more toward one than the other?

I think as a child, my automatic, my sympathy went toward my mother. Tell me more. At that point, probably coming to terms with being gay, my default, or I would kind of just go towards my mother. She was very nurturing as mother. She was very open and loving, and I think that's where I would just kind of place myself.

I think it was just easier to relate to her as a child. As I've grown older and I've become more aware of my parents and who they are as people, I sympathize with my father more, just him as a person. He's a brilliant man, he's funny, he's caring, he's kind. And a lot of these big fights there were my mother reacting to dad not coming to dinner on time or. Yeah, as.

As a young child, it was definitely the nurturing mother, kind of that feminine energy that I guess gravitated towards. If you were to describe the sequence between your parents, how would you describe it? It's kind of hard for me to describe what their sequence is because they're sequencing that. They. They just stayed together like they.

Esther Perel

Yes. Their sequence is that they are trapped. They're trapped. Yeah, exactly. Being trapped is what makes you bold.

Okay. You come in that two month period, it's just on the edge. It's before the first fight, it's before the first argument. And once the first one arrives, all you can imagine is mayhem. And you go from honeymoon to trap, and you're describing your parents in a state of entrapment, and you're describing how you, somewhere along the line to yourself, maybe to others, but primarily to yourself, made a vow that you would never be trapped, you would never be in that kind of a misery, but you don't really know how not to be in the misery, except fleeing.

And so it's meant as an act of self protection, but it becomes such an expression of avoidance that in the end, you find yourself alone. And so one of the tricks for not being alone is to fantasize about the ex or about the next. Yeah, that's definitely the sequence. When you have a fight with friends, I'm just curious, you know, to disagree, you know, to get into an argument, you know, how to repair, you know how to say what you want, I imagine. Yes.

With friends. Yeah, I. I would say that I communicate well, I resolve conflict well, I nurture my friendships well. Beautiful. So this lives inside of you.

You dont approach friendships with fear and trepidation and foreboding, whereas you approach romantic relationships with that.

We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad free, click the try free button to subscribe to Astaires office hours on Apple Podcasts.

Support for this show comes from art Beats and lyrics, a new documentary from Vox creative along with Jack Daniels, Tennessee Honey, and cult creative. Directed by Bill Horace, art Beats and lyrics showcases how a humble art show has grown into a cultural phenomenon. The film unveils the origin stories of the events founder Chabari Graham and its curator Dwayne W. Wright, exploring how Atlanta has shaped their individual past while also revealing their distinct roles within art beats and and lyrics. The documentary follows Jabari W and several of this year's feature artists as they gear up for AB and L's 20th anniversary tour, captivating thousands of fans at each and every show.

Stream art, beats and lyrics now on Hulu. Please drink responsibly. Whiskey specialty 35% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniels Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee Jack Daniels and Tennessee Honey are registered trademarks. 2024 Jack Daniels all Rice Reserve.

Support for where should we begin? Comes from Masterclass. Your mind deserves as much care and attention as your work or your relationships, but many of us neglect to care for our intellectual well being. Learning a new skill is a great way to nourish your mind, and Masterclass makes it easy to study with genius level instructors from every industry. A Masterclass subscription unlocks an entire world of possibility with unlimited one on one classes that you can access at home or on the go.

Masterclass offers more than 200 different courses taught by world class instructors like Ron Howard and Lewis Hamilton. You'll also find a class that I taught about relational intelligence. My course combines a conceptual framework with practical skills to strengthen your relationships by focusing on communication, conflict resolution, resolution, and empathic listening. We all live in relationships, and so this is suited for all of us lifelong learners. And right now, our listeners will get an additional 15% off an annual membership@masterclass.com.

Begin get 15% off right now@masterclass.com. Begin Masterclass.com begin.

Esther Perel

Let me ask you something. Did your relationships to the men change when your relationship with your dad improved? Yes, they did. There was a lot of resentment towards my parents, and I think that was probably a byproduct of me not being fully comfortable with myself and not being fully out of the closet. And I think once that process started for me, where that process of self acceptance and obviously being okay with who I was, I was able to build that relationship back with my dad, and I see him as the brilliant person that I see him as now.

Did he accept you? Yeah, there was like, early on, I always knew that my parents were never going to like, being gay was never going to be an issue. I have a gay older brother, and my parents have always been very forward with their support of the gay community, even when I wasn't a part of it. But I think what made it difficult for me was that I think there was an expectation that I was going to be the straight kid just purely because my brother had already came out. He'd been accepted.

Caller

They're like, okay, you know, one. One is gay, but, hey, we got one more to go. And that's how I kind of perceived the situation at the time. And then. And then I spent a lot of time going back and forth, hiding who I was.

I think it made it probably a little harder for me because I was actually dating women up until the point where I did come out. Same pattern with the women. No, not necessarily. I had long term relationships, obviously, with this voice in my head saying that, hey, you find men attractive, so no. Risks of getting entrapped there.

Esther Perel

Exactly, because that's not where I belong. I think I knew at some point that this wasn't going to be my life story. This is. But, yeah, to answer your question, my relationship with my dad did get a lot better and has continued to get better with age as well. And how did it change your relationship with your partners?

Did it? Well, yeah. So obviously, the first few months of me dating a man, seriously, I wasn't out to my parents. You know, I think I used that relationship as kind of a leverage to have that conversation. I don't think I would have been at a point to just go, hey, I'm gay.

Caller

And, yeah, so I use that relationship to come out to my parents. Was your brother helpful? Not really, no. He's lived overseas for a significant period of time. And in a similar fashion to my parents, I had a stranger, strained relationship with him after I came out.

His response was, I've known for a while he never offered any kind of, like, support, which I think to his, I guess, sort of defense, you know, was allowing me to find my own way and to kind of take my time and not feel pressured. But for me, it felt like I was kind of just left on my own. Yeah. To kind of deal with this and work through it. Yeah.

Esther Perel

Have you ever spoken with your parents about their misery, about what it was like to grow up with their incessant fighting, about how you perceive their loneliness? No, I haven't. And I think the conversation would be easier with my father than my mother. Why is that? I think for my mother, it's just for a long time now, like, probably since my early childhood, she's been medicating with alcohol.

Caller

She's been through quite a lot. And I think a way for her to deal with that is with alcohol. I don't think she has the tools or the desire to kind of seek external help. I just. I worry that that conversation too much and it would, I guess, trigger this alcohol consumption, this self medication.

Esther Perel

I hear you. I hear also that you see your mom as the more brittle, the more fragile and the person who sees herself as the victim. He comes late for dinner, and she feels diminished by his lateness. But it never occurs to her to ask herself if there's something in the way that she reacts that may make him want to stay out later. Yeah, definitely.

He stays out later. And pays the price of not knowing his son as much as he would like and as much as his son would like to know him. And so the son is home with mom, for whom he has developed very deep feelings that are very mixed. A part of him resents her for her reactivity, and a part of him feels very responsible to make sure that he doesn't make it worse for her because he never knows what she can actually handle and what she can't. And a part of him feels deeply caring for her because she's the nurturing, kind, accepting mother.

And a part of him feels guilty because sometimes all he wants is to get away from her. But he feels guilty about it because he knows that she may not be able to take care of herself well and that she's self harming. And so between the guilt and the resentment and the love and the sense of responsibility, he finds himself entwined in a complex set of contradictory feelings for her. And all of that sits in the background when he falls in love with any other man. Yeah, I can't put it any different.

Caller

That's exactly how it is. But say it in your voice. In my own words, I would say that I am overwhelmed with these feelings towards specifically my mother. It's kind of almost a feeling of helplessness in some ways, because I just don't have the tools to kind of navigate feelings that I have toward her. And I don't have the tools to kind of help her either.

And it's this one of the pieces, one of the. I guess the parting words that my parents always said to me when I moved out of home is that, you know, we'll be fine. Go and live your life. We will be okay. And it just feels like I can't do that.

And what I think is this sense of being, like, helpless and overwhelmed and confused. It just filters into my romantic relationships because I see myself when I'm in these relationships and they're good and they're healthy, and I feel like I'm in love. It feels like at any particular point, point or any unspoken point, that that might just turn and I will end up being my mother or my father. And that's. I think that's how I.

Yeah, how I kind of liken this to relationships. And how it impacts me. When you tell me this is happening in all my relationships, I recognize the pattern. I basically enter a state of panic. I don't know what the panic is about, but I have a state of panic, and I start to deflect the fact that it has to do with desire and fantasies about the next or about others.

Esther Perel

That's just the mechanism with which you're doing it. Don't get caught there because you get along with the people, because the relationship is good. You can't say, I have communication issues. So you find something about. I start to fantasize about others, but basically I start fleeing.

And if you think it's a conversation about desire, you may miss the point. So then the first question I have is, what are you replaying? What makes you bold? What's the panic? And if it's recurrent, it's a logical next step to say, tell me about home.

Caller

I think in my most recent dating, my last relationship that I had, it moved very quick. And up until a certain point, I was thrilled with that. It was kind of like this whirlwind. There was a point that I remember quite vividly, and it was a discussion around my partner started to feel anxious within the relationship and about wanting to. Know where it's going.

No. So we were committed at that point. We traveled overseas. We said we loved each other, and that was all very genuine. And when I reflect on me in that relationship at that period of time, that's how I want to be, you know, consistently, I suppose.

But the anxiety conversation came up that my partner at the time didn't really understand what that anxiety was or what was triggering it for me. I was comfortable with that conversation to try to offer my assistance, to try to kind of get an understanding of what the trigger points for that anxiety could be. And he didn't have the answers, and he didn't really want to be in a position to kind of talk through that with me. And I think after a few failed attempts at trying to, I get an understanding of what that anxiety was and what it meant. I think that's when I started to pull away, and that's when I know.

Esther Perel

So when he talked to me about his anxiety but was not willing or able to explore it with me, what happened to me? Don't tell me just what you did. Tell me also, if you can, what you experienced. I think I experienced at the time frustration. And shortly thereafter, I think I started to wonder whether this relationship was right and I should start to have that thought process of should I stay.

Caller

Should I go? And then eventually the thoughts of this person that I was with before my ex, I think we were really well suited. I get it. But I'm gonna slow you down for a moment. Is that okay?

Please. All right. Because you can describe the steps and I would like to see if we can go underneath the surface for a moment so that you get a different awareness of what is driving you.

Esther Perel

We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

Support for the show comes from Zocdoc. We often have a long list of to dos and going to see a doctor is usually at the bottom of the list until it's unavoidable. And it's not just the visit itself, it's the scheduling, the insurance loops, the referrals, the reports and all the logistics of our healthcare. It can be overwhelming. Zocdoc is a place where you can easily find and book doctors online so you can prioritize your health.

Zocdoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare hundreds of types of highly rated in network doctors and instantly book appointments with them online. You can search by location, availability and insurance so there's no compromise. Because with Zocdoc you've got more options than you know. Go to zocdoc.com begin and download the Zocdoc app for free. Then find and book a top rated provider.

Today, that's zocdoc.com begin. Book.com begin.

Vacations can be tricky. You already know how to book flights in hotels, but now the only thing you're missing is you know the actual travel experience. Because is it really a vacation if you're just sitting around like you would at home? You need a tool to get the most out of your time away. That's where Viator steps in.

You can book guided tours, activities, excursions and more in one place to make your trip truly unforgettable. Vallator has over 300,000 travel experiences to choose from. Everything from simple tours to extreme adventures and all the niche interesting stuff in between so you can plan something that everyone you're traveling with will enjoy. Real traveler reviews give the inside scoop from people who already been on these experiences you're considering so you can plan with confidence. Free cancellation helps you plan for the unexpected, and 24/7 customer support means you can travel worry free.

Download the Viator app now and use code Viator ten for 10% off your first booking in the app. Find travel experiences for you. Do more with Viator.

Esther Perel

He says, I'm anxious. Your first response is, I'm curious, I'm interested, I care.

And as you try to go back with him in the conversation and he isn't able to join you, you get frustrated. That frustration is like an open door to the history with your mom entering inside your internal home. From frustration, what follows? Responsibility, fear, annoyance, impatience. Resentment.

Which one? I would say fear. Fear of shit. I'm gonna find myself once again. Yeah.

Caller

In a position where I'm going to start pulling away from this person, I'm going to be. No, no. Before I'm going to start pulling away. Pulling away is a response to something. It's not the initial behavior.

Esther Perel

Pulling away happens to me when I'm in front of this man who I thought I love freely, and I suddenly start to once again experience this overwhelming sense of responsibility and helplessness and burden and weightiness. Yeah. I think burden is a good way to describe that. This feeling of, like, my parents and all those complex feelings, it's an additional burden on top of that. I think when I'm in a good, like, healthy relationship, not healthy, like in those early stages, it's easy.

Caller

There's no baggage, there's no additional stress. And then when I start, when anxiety creeps in or whatever the trigger is, I think I just see that as potentially the straw that's going to break the camel's back in regards to stress or burden. Right. So remember, the desire to flee is commensurate with the size of the burden and the responsibility that creeps up inside of you. Oh, shit.

Esther Perel

I'm once again gonna have to take care, carry, hold, feel responsible, but then not be able to manage the responsibilities or feel overwhelmed and helpless. Oh, gosh, I gotta go. I gotta get out of here. I gotta get out of here as fast as I can because if I stay one extra minute, I'm gonna be swallowed up alive.

Caller

Yeah. Yeah. You feel it in your body? I do, yeah. Where it's kind of like a clenching inside of my stomach when I hear that said out loud.

Yeah. Can you stand up for a moment so I can see the belly and the clenched? It's okay. Just stand by. Yes.

Yeah. And just. Just put your hands there. Right there where you had them. And just breathe into this because it takes over and there is just nowhere to go but out.

Yeah. Yes. And see if you can breathe inside into. You can sit. You can sit back if you can breathe into your hands, not just up here, but literally expand your ribcage and just make space, because your whole experience is an experience of contraction.

Esther Perel

And you don't differentiate between your mom, your dad, especially your mom and your lovers. It's as if the past and the present collapse. It's, um. It's hard to hear because you thought, I'm gone, I'm out of the house. I left all of this behind.

Caller

Yeah. I think, what the fuck? This is all inside of me. What the fuck? Yeah.

I think I felt it's. By the time, like, you know, me moving out, me having my independent life, having this, you know, relationship with them that was, you know, not there every day, you know, I'm. I can kind of come and go as I please and regulate my interactions with them. I think I thought, oh, I definitely thought that that was going to help, but I don't think it has. And, yeah, it's.

It is just a. What the f.

Esther Perel

But the good thing about this, what if. What do you call it? WTF? Yes. Yes.

I spell it out. That's why, you know, is that, you know, now, with a little bit more clarity, what is actually playing out inside of you. When I get close to someone, the closeness triggers a reenactment of the trap that my parents were in and that I experienced in the overwhelming sense of responsibility. I carry it for mom.

Esther Perel

And I need to learn to experience closeness and bring in different associations. You know, my logical mind has always. There'S nothing logical about this thing. This is all in your belly, in your gut, not in your head. Which is why the story you tell about me coming close, honeymoon, then moving away, fantasizing, that's the storyline.

But that doesn't tell the actual driver underneath, which is another story. Yes. So when you want to flee, you'll ask yourself, what just happened to me? What did I just feel? How did the past just intrude on the present?

And what can I do in this moment to anchor me in the present, in my life? Because maybe this guy was anxious, but that doesn't mean he was becoming another version of your mom. Yeah. And you another version of her son. Or he was becoming whoever he was, and you were becoming mom or dad.

See, there's very few characters in this story. We need new characters. It's a small story. Yeah, yeah. No, it's a deep story.

Caller

Deep story. It's a deep story. It's a painful story, but it can open up and bring in new characters, new parts. I think I'm ready for some new characters. Can I tell you something?

Esther Perel

The beauty of. Of making this a story about sex and about desire is that it puts you in an adult storyline. Adults talk about desire and sex and fantasies for others and all of that. And so it covers up the fact that it is the story of the little boy because it plays itself out in a pseudo version of an adult. Sex is a good cover up for that.

Caller

I agree. I think when I, like, even when I described that relationship, I was like, the sex was amazing. The adult connection was amazing. But I still fled. I still had those.

That process. Is he around? The relationship is strained. There was a lot of hurt. There was a lot of, you know, I think, in a sense, blindsided by this sudden departure.

You said that, you know, he preferred that if we didn't talk. And that does hurt. Unless you can one day go and tell him what you've learned about yourself that he became the subject of and had nothing to do with him. I still have very strong feelings towards him. But for us to respark that, no.

Esther Perel

We'Re not talking about resparking. We're talking about accountability. Talking about just clarifying and apologizing sometimes. Like to say he was recruited for a play that he didn't audition for. Neither did I, by the sounds of it.

Your drama. You are able to begin to connect the dots. And that's the beginning that really. So that you actually know what happens to me. What happens to me at the end is that I flee.

But the first thing is a host of very old feelings get triggered inside of me and they bring me back to a place of overwhelmed, helpless. Anger, guilt, fear. It's a big maelstrom of contradictory feelings. It's a mess and it's intense and it's painful. I first need to go and clear that up a little bit so that I can free myself to be in my own relationship and not feel like I'm branded.

Caller

Yeah. I imagine it's a story that's well told by not just myself. You're not alone. Yeah, you're really not alone. But we have strange ways to protect ourselves.

Esther Perel

Sometimes we create other storyboards to not see the real story. And we all do that. We include. I'm gonna let you go here. Thank you so much.

Caller

Thank you, Esther. I hope this was helpful. It was. Thank you.

This was an Esther calling. A one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minutes phone call. Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producerstaraparel.com dot where should we begin?

With Esther Perel is produced by magnificent noise. We're part of the Vox Media podcast network in partnership with New York magazine and the cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walshover, Destry Sibley, Huette Gatana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristin Muller, and Julianne. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of where should we begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.

We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler and Jack Saul.

Support for this show comes from art, beats and lyrics, a new documentary from Vox creative along with Jack Daniels, Tennessee Honey and coke creative directed by Bill Horace. Art, beats and lyrics showcases how a humble art show has grown into a cultural phenomenon. The film unveils the origin stories of the event's founder, Jabari Graham, and its curator, Dwayne W. Wright, exploring how Atlanta has shaped their individual past while also revealing their distinct roles within art, beats and lyrics. The documentary follows Jabari W and several of this year's feature artists as they gear up for ABN L's 20th anniversary tour, captivating thousands of fans at each and every show.

Show stream art, beats and lyrics now on Hulu. Please drink responsibly. Whiskey specialty 35% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniels Distillery Lynchburg, Tennessee Jack Daniels and Tennessee Honey are registered trademarks. 2024 Jack Daniels all rights reserve.