SAY ANYTHING vs SAY ANYTHING

Ione Skye

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Max Bemis

Salad or dolly threw a great party. We all drank Bacardi. It got kinda gnarly. We're Linus and feather we're tougher than. Weather together we'll meet her.

Ione Skye

We're weeding together. Hi, Ernie. Sky. Ben. How are you, my friend?

I'm very good. Today is a very interesting episode. Yeah. Because we have a guest today, now in the legacy of Ioni sky, in what you have put out into the world, into your imprint on culture, possibly the film you're in. Say anything.

Ben Lee

Yes, you may have heard of. It has. It's had a cultural imprint. Right. People love this movie.

Yeah. It's the kind of film that everybody loves. There's no argument. No one dislikes it. It's true.

Ione Skye

It is kind of weirdly hard to dislike. Have you met anyone that disliked anything? No, no, it's true. It's something that. I don't know, there's something about it that just.

You can't really tear it down. That's a lot like my career, too. I think this is an area that we really relate on, that. Like, I'm just universally liked. It's just everyone agrees.

Well, let's say when you are liked, you are very like. But, yeah, I have a lot of things that are naughty. When I'm good, I'm very, very good. And when I'm bad, I'm rotten. Naughty.

That's what we say in the States. I. Naughty. But wait, I thought it was an Edward Gorrie thing or something. Isn't it not?

It's like a victorian. It's probably a victorian rhyme. Well, I. Again, I am like a victorian child. There was a girl who had a curl right in the middle of her forehead, and when she was good, she.

Max Bemis

Was very, very good. And when she was bad, she was Rossett. You're right. That's what I was thinking of. But who said that?

He said that. I don't know. It's like a rhyme. One of those horrible victorian rhymes for children. Now, the reason I bring up your film.

Ben Lee

Say anything is. Did you know there is a band called say anything? Of course you knew that. Yeah. Okay.

I'm not bringing. This is not new information. Well, I wasn't raised. I mean, I don't live in a closet. No, that's true.

You are out of the closet as an appreciator of say anything. Yeah. So in about the year 2003, I was invited on a tour with dashboard confessional, who, at that moment, do you know dashboard confessional? Of course. What is.

Ione Skye

I'm like, I live on Mars. Do you know what music is? Do you know what music is? Okay, I know, I know, I know. I'm older than you.

No, but it could have fallen in the tracks. I know what you're saying. The cracks. The cracks, the cracks. It could fall in the tracks and it'd be fine.

Ben Lee

The cracks are where there's a problem. Right, exactly. Like, you're right. There are spaces that. I do miss being kind of, you know, I'm, like, born in the seventies.

Ione Skye

Like, I get it. Like, you're younger, so there are. There is stuff that you've. It's not just you. Even my age.

Ben Lee

Like, I'm mid forties, and dashboard was kind of connecting with people just slightly younger than me at the time. When I was in my mid twenties. It was like, a lot of teens. Anyway, these are crossover bands. They were massive at the time, and they were on the verge of becoming.

The narrative went that this was a band who was about to become the next you, too. It was like a very exciting moment for this band. Yeah. And I was invited out on tour with them. And the other band on this tour was the band say anything, but, you know, within the name that we referred to with one of your movies.

Did you know? You know what I'm talking about. I do. I don't know why I've taken on this person. This bit is really annoying.

Ione Skye

But did you tour the States in Europe, or just. No, just the states. And it was. It was an exciting time. I was very single after being in a relationship for six years, and that was this tour.

Ben Lee

Yeah, this was one of those tours. And awake is a new sleep was doing pretty well, and there were just girls everywhere. Your version of, like, being a dog on tour is not. I mean, it's. It's.

Max Bemis

You're. You're very. You weren't that crazy. I feel like you're putting me down. I think I was a dog that equaled any other dog.

Ione Skye

Make Jagger on tour, and it wasn't. That bad, but but. But anyway, this tour was really fun because I feel like all of the three acts dashboard say anything, and me, Ben Lee, we were each at these kind of sort of climactic moments in different ways of what we were doing. Yeah. And say anything.

Ben Lee

I'd listened to them before, but I'd never seen them live, and I watched them almost every night, and there were just this intensity to this band that was so visceral and real and happening. It was like Max Bemis, the singer, was someone who is in an actual experience, which is what I love about artists. When you, like, you feel that, you're really like, it's real. You know what I mean? Without further ado.

Without further ado, we have Max bemis joining us on the podcast. Hi. Hey. How are you, man two. Wayne's world, also my favorite film of all time.

Max Bemis

Ironically, not say anything, but another entry is Wayne's world, which I haven't shown my kids yet, but is my favorite known film of all time. But first of all, thank you so much. Just even hearing you be Ben Lee about my band is enough to bring me to tears slightly as a 40 year old emo dad. So I really appreciate you. I didn't know you watched us that many times.

I remember you watching us. And the thing that I remember most about Ben on tour, first of all, just being delightful. That's how I describe it to anyone. He was just, like, so fun to obviously, like, it's the thing you might even be sick of hearing at this point. It just.

He's so positive. He's so nice. He's so happy. It's like, you're like, I know, but you were. And you were kind to.

I was, you know, 22, so you're like, it is kind of rare in the punk or indie world or arts in general to meet, like, the friendly older brother archetype. You're like, I hope I lived this, you know? Like, I hope I get there and feel like that, you know, so. And I related to you in terms of that experience, even being in such a loud abrasive on that tour. I guess, you know, there's been other tours where we're the, like, the sweet band, you know?

But the thing you did most that. That stayed with me is then came up to me and he discussed one of my lyrics on an existential level, even in a challenging but, like, enthused way of, like. And it was like, a particularly negative lyric, and you had recognized, and you're like, I don't know if that is true, but it's so. Well, was that from like, admit it or something? No, it was from.

We have a song called the feudal. And you're like, does the feudal outweigh the beautiful? And I'm like, haven't thought about it since I wrote it. And I was like, in a massive depression, stoned in my room. And now you're right.

I kind of agree with you. I'm glad you think so because I'm starting to think maybe the beautiful might outweigh the feudal and this is kind of just an act. So it agreed with my psyche at the time. Wow, that's so cool. I think I feel like as an artist, as a songwriter, one of the nicest things you can do is just listen to someone's actual lyrics.

Ben Lee

Like, like. And so especially someone I, I admire. If I'm gonna work with, I always give a proper listen. Oh. Because I only know that, like, I really do listen to everything that, like, is.

Max Bemis

Yeah, that's hard. Like, links, you're like, when do I get to have to look? I want to make sure I get it. Yeah, totally, totally. And, and it is funny that.

Ben Lee

What do you. What do you remember? Think about what? I remember you on the phone a lot in very impassioned conversations at the back of these arenas and sheds you were in. I think you were talking to a girlfriend at the time, but you were in like, long distance.

Max Bemis

Not just long conversation. Not just long distance is fun. You guys know this. Or it can be. You know what I mean?

The things that make a bad long distance relationship hell, like the worst, aren't really what will make a normal or very healthy or romantic. You know, I've been married for 15 year. Our relationship was. Our relationship. Our anniversary was like four days ago for 15 years.

And you guys, it's like a similar track, correct? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys also have a daughter, 17. We have a daughter. And then I have a daughter from another relationship who's 22.

So spoiled with only girls. That's tight. Yeah. Type for band, definitely. And then.

So I have five kids and one is a boy and he's amazing. But anyway, the point is I was, if you look at it, and I'm, by the way, I'm going to warn you right now because I'm going to do this throughout the podcast, potentially, and I'm going to try to censor it. I'm the most projecting person ever and I'm kind of good at it, but it's bad. So, like, I did this starting as a baby onto my mom, I think. And then sometimes it's accurate.

Sometimes it's, like, offensive or even. You know what I mean? I'm like. I get it. You're like, but I'm a refugee.

You know? So with you guys, if you can go back to that, how you had just gotten out of a relationship. I don't know if it was dysfunctional or good or bad or whatever, but I was behind on that track getting out of my first real relationship or first one that left a mark and, you know, wrote a whole album about it. So, yeah, that was the state I was in. And then literally, you know, as many.

How old are you been? If you. If you don't mind me asking? I don't know if that's on Tuesday. I'm now 45.

Ben Lee

I'm 45. No, no, no. We just turned 40, like, a few days ago. So, you know, into some degree. Yeah.

Max Bemis

I didn't observe, by the way. You're probably right about Ben because I was similar on tour where, like, the worst the things that I look back and have serious moral misgivings to the point where during the me too era, I called people like, I'm like, did I hurt you? And they're like, max, I don't think about it ever. Like, you're nice and everything, but, God, of course not. And if anything, you need to be, like, just chill a little bit, you know?

So I was a similar person. But experientially, when you're on tour, either breaking up with someone, and I'm sure it's the same, honestly, I don't want to assume, again, projecting, but, like, any artist, when you're making art. So for acting or art, like painting and it's going into your work, it just magnifies the crazy. So, like, I'd be on stage not necessarily thinking of her, but it throws you through an emotional wringer, obviously. And it makes it even more like performance art, you know, and then you go offstage and there's this insane dynamic which on that tour, as you know, it was even weirder for us.

Not weirder. That's like qualifying it. Like, qualifying trauma or good things. But, like, you know, you had this amazing career, which, by the way, there's a lot of similarities and overlap there. This whole thing is very fucking weird.

And met. Yeah. Brad Wood and everything. Brad Wood and then also just your career. We can get into this maybe, if you want, at some point, but there's a lot of similarities as the singer songwriter coming from the punk world but thought of as a singer songer.

And, yeah, it was. So we had. We were at a particular moment too. And how we related to dashboard was very particular, especially genre wise. And it's why I only.

I wouldn't be shocked if you hadn't heard. I'm honored. First of all, I can't even. Come on, say, you know what I mean? Like, what do you want me to say?

Anything. So obviously I'm honored and thank you for making that movie and being you and all that. But, you know, it was a weird zenith and we witnessed each other at that weird crossroads. And it was nice to have someone where it didn't look depressing. Like, when I saw you in your sort of, like, jagger moment, like, to me, you were kind.

You didn't look like you were just, like, not yourself as you are now, if that makes sense. I think I was a little bit more removed from who I am now, but I don't know if you were ever there. But for me, at that age, in my early twenties, it wasn't even, like, mentally unhealthy, bipolar drug guy. It was just like, I wasn't my inner child really much. It was there.

I just wasn't living that. And now as a dad, like, you. Weren'T connected to your playfulness or something. Yeah. And even the angst felt like, certainly that's just being human.

But, like, the angst of a, like, unhealthy relationship is different to me than the angst of, like, even the unhealthiest moments of, like, my relationship now where I'm like, oh, God, am I in an unhealthy relationship? I'm scared. Am I ruining my kids? All these thoughts still in retrospect, I look at it and I'm like, my God, was the first thing I was doing was just so Dawson's Creek and bullshitty. Even though I'm living it, you know, even though I lived it, like, you know, a punk.

Very cathartic. Hopefully it was, you know, whatever more convincing than Dawson's creek, but it was still, in a way, artificial and drama, you know, like, I don't judge it necessarily as, like, stupid for me or that person, but certainly the issues are more. Seem more relatable that I can see my partner going through, or that when I go through something, it feels. I was just crying to a Ben Lee song about my daughter getting. I'm like, I'm gonna listen to some Ben Lee before this podcast.

I'm like, what's this gonna make me think of? Nostalgic? There's something about Mary, 14 year old Max having a crush on a girl. And then I started listening to that song and I was like, this is making me think about my daughter. How I'm like, my heart is breaking because she's getting older.

Oh. Oh. I don't know if you've feeling that at all. Totally. Oh, yeah.

Ben Lee

Mine is a legit. Especially my. Yeah. When my older one, I went through a phase of looking at old baby, baby pictures. Well, my older one's now 22, but when she started turning, amazing.

Ione Skye

When she started turning, like, right, maybe around eleven. Remember, Ben, I got really. You couldn't stop looking at baby pictures. But it was heart. It was a particular heartbreak.

And I was compulsive. And then the same with our goldie. It's. It's similar. It's like I.

It's hard. It hurts to look at pictures when they're babies and little. I describe it to my therapist like, it sucks because I'm caught in one of these depression traps. And I've never known anything like it because usually when you break up with someone or have this, like, feeling of grief or loss, you lose it. But she's just getting cooler and cuter and awesome and she'll do something that's not sad, not even grown up.

Max Bemis

Like, she's just being cute. And I'm like, oh. And it just hits me like, this is now done. That moment's gone. It was the cutest thing you've ever seen.

It's gone now and then. I'm also judging myself for that. But we'll talk about that. It's a different thing. Did you always know, like, back then, when you're in your early twenties and in this, you know, this emo figurehead of angst, did you always know you would one day be a dad?

I wanted to be. I mean, again, when you think of. Or when I talk about kind of my not living the life that I was looking for, that life when I was in that relationship in particular, but not because of that person, really. I'm not trying to be codependent and forgive every time they fucked my life. But I will say I was also pretty nuts at the time.

I will say, you know, I wasn't. I was never like a big. There are people who have partied harder. There are people who have been more divorced from. From, like, their true self.

I've seen my wife get more divorced from her true self since I've been with her through postpartum, through whatever she's been through. But it was more like, I could do it. I cannot do it. Whatever I just want to date this girl and be in a band, and this is fun. And also, when's she gonna call me back?

And, like, you know, as a kid, I had specific desires and dreams. They were so visceral. So I was also. This is maybe dork. Like, it's so stupid that I think this is dorky.

You guys relate to this, I'm sure. I feel like it's dorky that I. I already had watched your guys podcast, and I loved it. I thought you guys were adorable and all that stuff, but the to get in the zone, I watched, like, a recent episode, a more recent episode, and I was just loving it, of course. But I was having a lot of these thoughts.

And I think that at the time, I just, like, again, when I got into the industry, I didn't even want to necessarily be in a band. I wanted to make movies. I wanted to write. My first love was, like, writing and comic books, which I also kind of do. And then music was a part of it.

It was just this love of creation. I was one of these cliche, creative kids, you know, and then say, anything is weird. And I was just talking about this. And I think, ben, you are kind of similar. And I don't know about you, Ione, how you think about it when you go into, like, a project, but there's a lot of thinking and where.

What does this mean and stuff. So, you know, we made music in high school, and then when we put out our first record, it was conceived as, like, a parody of music that I liked. So it wasn't like spinal tap fully where there. You know what I mean? Like, there was like a.

Probably some hatred of, like, white snake when they made that movie, and then maybe they liked, like, black Sabbath or something. But there was some anger and hatred there. Like, I was, you know, grew up listening to punk and indie bands and then especially emo, you know, bands, I guess, if you're going to call it that, that changed my life in an earnest way. But I came from LA and I grew up with a dad who was in the industry, so I had this sort of, like, anger towards any art. And then it got shifted towards the paradigm of music and stuff.

So even being in a band, I had this sort of. It became very venomous, as opposed to just playful. And it, you know, so the music that was initially just kind of like, I'm gonna write about how I feel, became like a who's Andy Kaufman ish thing, you know what I mean? So it took a while to get back, meaning my wife was the thing that brought those things together to the point where they could coexist, where I could write a song about suicide, trying to make it funny. And by the way, dealing with suicidal ideation, I don't mean other people's suicides is funny, necessarily, but I mean, like.

Like, Hitler's is pretty funny. Let's not lie here. We're all tribe, but, like, my own, you know, I like to find humor in my own pain and stuff, but then to be able to weigh that with my love for her or, like, once I started writing about my kids, it became a lot closer to home and easier for me to feel like I could be both those people, I guess. Wow, that's amazing. Did your fans know, do you think, that there was a little bit of parody in there or.

Ione Skye

They probably didn't. I think it was a little. I think it was less divisive than for some people, you know? And I think that's partially because some of those people say it's a joke when it isn't. Like, that's their go to.

Max Bemis

Like. To me, as much as I look up to him in certain ways, bowie is, like, my love and arch nemesis artistically, because I feel like he's a king of, like, doing something or was a genius, but also the king of, like, making an artistic step and then being like, it was all an act. It was a statement about being, like, a really creepy old guy who was acting like a creepy old guy, you know? Like, so I feel like it can be an out, and certainly maybe that was a part of what I was doing on a subconscious level, you know? But I think more.

Ione Skye

There's a fine line. Yeah, totally. And in film, it's worse. In film, it's worse because you get people, like, making bjork. Like, think about, like, a recent death.

Max Bemis

So she cries on Crane, you know what I mean? Like, it's.

And it's really bad, you know, in other forms of art, it's pretty bad. Whereas in music, we can at least, like, there's a. There's just, like, the sound of music, and it's pretty. And you can't, like, pervert. It ultimately has to be good or, like, you feel it.

The emotions have to be real, even if it is partially humorous. So I think most people got it because we wouldn't have, like, we're. I would like to think we're a good ish band, but I think what I've, I guess, traded on or have found the most, like, last, like, staying power with our fans, ironically, is the. What. What determines us from someone, like, dashboard, where, you know, Ben, of course, you saw that experience where it is really weird.

Like, I think you would find it weird, Ione, in a cool way. Like, because it's obviously, like, we've all been around bands where they're singing the music back, and it's this weird, cool, crazy, emotional exchange. But that was, like, what the genre was defined by was this dissolution of. It was, like, whatever. That's what emo is, is this emotional diary of.

Of tortured people on stage and thus becoming the audience in such a visceral way that the audience is louder even than. It's like their show is the concept. It's almost like going to a movie. In that way, in that community experience, even though there's a figurehead, you're not sort of watching the figurehead the whole time. Well, you're having tripping balls.

Ione Skye

That music. Yeah, with that music. Like, it hits in such a way that feels good, even though it's ironic because it's a non. It's. You know, it's music about not feeling good, but it just hits when it's good.

That emo world, whatever you want to call it, it's validating and satisfying, and you're just like, yeah. Thank you. Thank you for. On behalf, so. But I also, like, again, like, I found it funny from the beginning.

Max Bemis

Like, even as it changed my life, made me want to do it professionally and not pursue film or something. And it drew me. Other things drew me into it, though. And I think that was what, the fact that I mostly got into a band to make one girl like me, because I was a different archetypal character, and I was like, no, I like this guy maybe a little bit more and kind of leaned into it, even though it was, like, less a part of me. I couldn't not be honest about that in the lyrics because I felt like such a hypocrite, because I have jewish, like, guilt.

So I'd just be like. I feel like if I don't, if I'm not honest about why I'm doing this and that, there's like. It isn't necessarily all about just making you feel better because you're really tortured. This is also about my weird, selfish needs and projection and all these things. And certainly, I think what I found is it's less dark than I made it to be.

As Ben said to me, you know, it's like I wasn't as bad a person as I thought I was, just by being in a band and wanting to express myself, you know, that was a pretty twisted way of looking at it, but I think it resonated with enough people who, especially millennials, who, you know, we grew up. I was listening to a book, and it was like, how people, even in their fifties, look at millennials is really, I think, pretty accurate when it's, like, growing up with 911 at that exact moment and other things culturally was a bit of a, like, a weirdo thing. And every generation has its thing. Like, y'all had Kurt or something, you know, like, there's always something weird that then affects an entire youth culture. So, like, it became this, like, commodified depression, and so I was depressed, but I, like, felt, like, weird about it.

It felt like it was put on me in certain ways. Some of it was chemical. I have, like, a mood disorder. But then some of it was. Seemed, like, contrived.

You know, I'm like, you know, I don't know. Some of it seemed a little contrived in the way. Yeah, yeah. But that's. That's show business, too.

Ben Lee

I mean, what about the whole, just, like, rock star side of it? Like, you. You know, you were on. Was it on J. You were on jrecords, right?

Max Bemis

Yeah. Yeah. So you were on Arista. You know, you had. You.

Ben Lee

You were in the machine, you were opening for dashboard. You were having a. I don't know. It was. It was, wow, I can get sexual to is considered, like, a hit, a minor hit by mainstream standards.

Max Bemis

It was like, I think you've had bigger hits than our biggest hit. It would, but, like, maybe similar size. But how did you relate. How did you relate to the idea at the time? Sure.

At the time, it was, like, all through that prism. So I was like, what do I do next with this? You know, again, not to project yet again onto another person who's not me and is completely different, but, like, Christopher Gasta maybe would be a good example of someone who, when he did spinal tap and probably was thinking, how can I fuck with them more? You know, what's the weirdest next thing I can do, almost for fun, because it's, like, his sense of humor, because it brings him joy in an earnest way. That's another thing that I've, like, you know, accepted as my thing.

So certainly, like, a level. The level I also grew up. I was going to say this, and, you know, just. It's an observation that a lot of things hit me when I was thinking about doing this, you know, earlier in the day. And it's funny because it's like, I want to know more about your background then, you know, because I grew up, certainly in no way at the level you did, Ione, but I grew up in the Hollywood world in that weird bubble, and that changed.

And I think maybe this was your probably times a million, your experience. It certainly colors any juxtaposition of your own dalliances with that same machine. You go into it. I'm sure every person processes it different who comes from LA? But for me, there was both good and bad that came from.

Coming from a world where that wasn't that foreign to me. Whereas someone like Chris Carrabba, the guy from dashboard confessional, came from Florida. And I've seen people handle that with it made them so much more graceful in the context of fame, you know what I mean? Coming from not. That made them so much better at dealing with it and so much more humble and awesome.

And then I've seen people who came from something that wasn't it, and then it perverted them entirely because it seemed all the more appealing for its. Like, I relate. I relate to both those. I relate to both those. I was gonna say that it's like I'm born.

I didn't grow up. Yeah. Like, I didn't. I didn't grow up with it at all. So I think in some ways, even just being an artist, we talk about this all the time.

Ben Lee

For me, that was a true rebellion. The idea that I could build a life out of creativity was not at all handed to me or expected. And in some ways, I don't know. It made me feel like I owned that as part of my destiny in a way that felt really empowering. But on the other hand, I think I look at my kids and how comfortable they are around show business, and I don't relate to that at all.

Like, I still, when I was on that in that period in my early twenties when catch my disease was doing well, I would go into radio stations because we were going into, like, hot ac and pop stations, and I would kind of, like, choke because I felt not like I knew, like, Beyonce happy the day before. But I saw how, like, people, like, I look at now, how, like, people think of, you know, what they call Nepo babies. I see these kids as, like, very empowered because they've already had their innocence shattered about the, like, holiness of show business. I'm still totally in awe of show business. Yeah, but I'm beautiful kids.

Ione Skye

I just think I'm so starstruck by kids of famous people. Like, I'm enamored because I'm a kid of a famous person, but I find it fascinating. And I don't know, I just see celebrities gagging over each other and still being like that. But I think my brother and I both grew up, like, you know, in Hollywood. But his personality, he went for it.

Like, he was like, how do I get in the business? And he's a Leo. I don't know if I believe in star signs, but he's outgoing. So it also depends on what kind of personality you are. Like, I was.

We probably were insecure, both my brother and I, in the same, like, level, if he weighed our insecurities by the same weight. But I was a shy, introverted, quiet person, so. And I just didn't have a business sense back then. My brother was like, how do I get in? Oh, I can pop lock.

This is popular. I'm gonna start popping and locking in. Pop locking. An underrated road to mainstream single. It was like, in the eighties, you know, they put it in every tv show.

Max Bemis

Da da. And then he became an actor. Then he started producing, and he had a band, and he just was, like, doing it all. And I sort of accidentally fell into it. But I was extremely creative.

Ione Skye

But, like, shy, shy, shy. And you had to drag me to an audition. I was so scared. But I also wanted to get out of my school. I was in Hollywood high, so I did.

I also had a need to get out of where I was. But I did see the examples around me of, like, you know, my mom was beautiful. She modeled, or she dated famous people because, you know, for a woman, it's different. You can use your beauty. And then just.

Ben Lee

People were in bands. Yeah. I mean, for sure. Like, all my. You, my friends, whatever, there was a music scene, and I knew some actors.

Ione Skye

So you do see it as an example. And then my family, I didn't have a pressure. The pressure to be, like, a doctor or a lawyer. No. Whereas for you, like, had you gone to college, that would have been cut now.

Max Bemis

Not this one. God. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, for me not going to college.

Ione Skye

I mean, my jewish grandparents would have loved their kids to have married jewish daughter, but my mom and my aunt never liked. They always dated creative non jewish people. But. But I didn't have that pressure from my mom. You know, it's very.

Max Bemis

I would be. Yeah. And. And I would be your guys weird baby in that regard. Like, I literally lived, like, something that was somewhere in the middle because I also was a very.

Oh, my God. Yeah, I had a. I was a, um.

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Out of place kid in that environment, shy. Felt very scared of life in a weird way. But also, I think, part of its generational. I'm not going to lie because it's weird when you talk to people of the different generations who grew up there, and it's obviously generational when you don't grow up there. When I look at my wife, who was born in a small town in Texas, but then went through the same.

She's in a bit in a, in a band too, and does other stuff, but she went through, at the same time, major label courting. It was like Ben Lee, you know what I mean? People flying to Australia or whatever it was, but it was Texas. And then we had people whatever at our shows, major label people, but it was like they had two other shows to go to on the strip that night, you know? So, um, it was like a weird mix.

Um, I I was around that stuff, but I, like, I was friends with the. I got Nepo baby's a great call. But also I hate, I hate it because, like, some of my best friends were kids of famous people, really grounded, cool people, and in a way, sometimes had to act like the other Nepo babies in order to successfully navigate. Just like normal high school kids. They'd like, come up to you on the side and be like, I hate this party.

And you'd both just share a moment of like, fuck this. And then you'd have to go back to the artifice. And I was just a little bit worse at, or maybe better because in the, in the context of punk, that works, but you know what I mean? Or rock, being the weirdo is good, but I could blend in, but I just wasn't good at it. So I just went with that, you know.

But generationally, I don't know if it was like that for you guys, but it was post. It was at an age where. Cause Ben, I feel like for you, like, Nirvana was close enough to win. It wasn't close. Like, nevermind came out when I was, like, ten.

So for you, you were a teenager, so. Right. So I started my band the day after I saw Nirvana live in 1992. So that was my moment where I. And then the music scene I came into was very much people that had come up with Nirvana and were surfing the wake up.

How surreal that is to me. Like, you know what I mean? So. So even meeting people that know, like, grohl, obviously, to me, is the most surreal thing of all time. He's like a walking weird miracle when I see them or hear playing with them is insane, you know?

So even. It was like a. Like an artifact to me where someone handed it to me, like, listen to this. But it wasn't like. But it was almost normal.

It's like my kids are walking around quoting, like, cardi B without any shame. They're like, mom, Percy, this, like, nine year old. I'm like, okay. You know what I mean? This is normal to them.

Like, rebelling for them. So for me, I went to college and dropped out.

There was. But it was this weird fusion of, like, my parents wanted me to be. Like, they didn't want me to go to college and become a square, nor did they truly want me to pursue the bohemian lifestyle because it meant I could be hurt. Like, I could. You know what I mean?

They were scared because they had seen everyone go through all this stuff in LA and just general parental anxiety. But, you know, the cliche at that point, post, like, grunge and stuff, was like, he will die, you know, he will end up one of these dead. You know what I mean? So it was. It was working against some weird shit I remember hearing.

Ben Lee

I think I've said this before on the pod, but I remember money Mark telling me, I think that he was in the studio on the first Wallflowers album and Jacob Dillon was, like, cutting that record and people had been courting him for years. And the phone rang one day and it was Bobby trying to talk Jacob out of. I remember hearing about and being like, I'll buy you a deli. I'll buy you a deli. You should have a different type of job.

Max Bemis

Yeah, so that sounds like. Like halfway between camera. We've lost your camera. Oh, my God. It could be worse.

When. When it cut out. I said out loud, God, not this one. Like, it's okay. When it's therapy.

I'm like, come on.

Said it out loud. Yeah. So what was the shift for you? Like, into, you know, you guys came up. You were probably the last generation of bands to come up where there was, like, money in the music industry, and we were all at the merch table selling CDs.

Ben Lee

And, like, how, for you, has the shift been into this current era of, like, we're all, you know, in our own way, we're all rubbing two sticks together to keep our careers out of finance? I've experienced it on. So, I mean, it's almost like going, you know, to anyone, you know, how did Trump becoming president affect your life? And you could at first go, yeah, you know, the economy really affected me. Then you could be like, I lost faith in all humanity, and then I got it back.

Max Bemis

But then, I don't know. You know, it's like, you know, it affected me on so many levels that, you know, at first it was really difficult, and I felt, like, really connected to what seemed to be how everyone felt, which is, like, this is really difficult. I was handed a lot of money, basically a child star, and then it. I now have to work for a living. What do I do?

I have no skills. But we found ways to navigate it. I did this thing called song shop. I don't know if you ever saw me on flogging this. Yeah, I did.

Ben Lee

It looked so cool. I still do it occasionally. It now has a pure PTSD attached to it. But what I did was it's kind of like, distilled emo spirits in the sense that the fan, as I. Whatever.

Max Bemis

It's a hate the term, but, like, someone who likes my music sends me a paragraph about their life and something they want a song written about. So whatever they're going through, that's most visceral. But it could be something as innocuous as, like, for my boyfriend because he's cute and he has red hair, you know, and my sort of natural tendency is, like, even with those ones, when I pick up a guitar, it's just like, if I'm singing a love song, I don't necessarily go, like, my wife's name, sherry. So I don't just, like, look at her across room and go, Sherry. Think about Sherry.

But, like, that's what singing conjures in a way. So, like, I can't help but connect to everyone. And I realized I can compulsively do this on command. So I started to improvise them, and it became, you know, I grew up with hip hop music, and I never thought that, like, I could freestyle. And then I realized it's how I write, really, most I could imagine.

Ben could do it forever. Sit in a room with an art, just talking about melody signs and. But we're kind of taught to overthink songwriting in rock bands or pop music, whatever. But in hip hop, you have to kind of do it on command or right when you go into the booth or get an opportunity. In this case, I'm like, you give me $150, I write you song.

I am the song Shop Machine man. And so I would sit there and I. This feels so. It's interesting to bring up on a podcast, and it's pertinent, but it feels braggy, and it is, I guess, but, like, as an example, if this is not good. I wrote 110 songs in one day.

This was the lowest my mental. It was horrible. It was horrible. Never do it. Never do it.

Never do it. It was the day before my son was born, and I was in the midst of my early onset midlife crisis. Smoked weed for the first time in, like, 15 years, and I was just in my studio doing this on autopilot, probably closer to that state of, like, the world is falling apart. But somehow I found a way. This is just.

We're actually making more money like this in ways that people have found ways to navigate the collapse of the music industry. It was my weird, private way of doing it, but it also felt so. It always feels like playing it the most important emo show ever, because when someone writes to you, you know, I'm gonna. I don't know. I'm gonna kill myself.

Write the best song ever. I'm gonna do it at that point. But, like, I deal with suicidal ideation. I'm bipolar, too. When I listen to your band, it gives me hope.

Can you give me some advice? Like, who wouldn't want to sit and then just write an inspired song? You know, like, there's nothing more. Rather than, like, what do I do on my next album? Better be better than the last album.

So it was just a really visceral, distilled thing of what we do, you know, of what any artist does. It was like, commission for art, so that helped. But then to answer it fully, and then I'll shut up. I'm sorry. I talk so much.

Is that how I really took it was. It broke me, and I think that and fatherhood completely severed my identity. That was in my twenties, mixed up with my art and confused with who I was because of that, as I was talking about before. So it was like, that really did it when it wasn't, as you said, going into radio stations, and they're like, come here. Today's, are you like, we're gonna do your makeup.

Max Bemis, jewish, just casual guy. We're gonna do your makeup, and then you're gonna sit there and play. And I'm like, okay. You know, I wasn't that weirded out by it, but I was just like, okay, yeah, I've been doing this since I was 19, put on my makeup, and now I, you know, I spend most of my time not doing anything like that. I mean, we haven't even been on the road in six years.

So I think for a lot of people, that was kind of the. I mean, even, like, seeing you on social media, I just felt similar vibes where it was just like, what are we now? We're dads, and that's over. So what the fuck? You know what I mean?

It's like, it was just a very surreal thing. And it affected my wife too, because she also was in a band with her siblings. She was in, like, an Osmond type band. And then they base not broke up, but she ended up being the only sibling left. And she had five kids in a row.

They're all under eleven, so we both went mental.

Yeah. I think the thing that I relate to you guys, the scrappiness of and the determination to get through is that, you know, I'm sure you get it all the time. I get, like, these interviews where people. Are like, what do you think about. The state of the music industry and does streaming work and all this?

Ben Lee

And I'm like, dude, yeah. The way I survive is by not thinking macro. I think about pivoting in the reality in the jungle that we're living in. Like, I just try and be like, killer Mike. You know what I mean?

I'd just be like, we're in the jungle. We share moments of laughter. We share moments of hope, but we keep surviving. And that's kind of how you got to do it as an artist. And I wasn't like that, you know, around the time that we hung out on that tour.

Max Bemis

But that is so true to why I ever do anything. You know what I mean? Like, I was always an optimist by default. Not even that. That's good.

It's gotten me in fucking trouble in the past few years. I've had to question, is that a toxic trait? You know, I mean, it's real. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like, it's real easy to be like, I'm the one who can just make everything positive.

And then I'm like, wait, is that making it worse. Am I miss assessing everything and thereby. And so I've had to, like, forgive myself and just kind of go, no. It's just kind of how I'm wired. And in a way, like, a lot of the angst came from not being able to embrace that aspect.

You know, it is why I relate. You know, like, tupac was my first, like, lyricist that I learned all the words to and stuff. And I guess I do relate a little bit more to a pragmatic view of it. But I am also, like, a weird. When I say weird, it's also kind of contrived, but, like, overthinking millennial artsy artist whose first album was a concept record.

You know, it was like, I want. To ask you something tangential just before I forget, because I think, like you, I'm super inspired by rap music and also, like, the hustler's spirit of, like, that, you know, getting it done. But I'm. How have you found, you know, this whole thing with, like, p. Diddy and.

Ben Lee

And, uh, like, a lot of the, like, actually. You mean his plot or the fact. I'm kidding. Well, I do know, but all of it, like, a lot of the fact that, like, it's not quite as, like, an inspiring story and, like, there's things coming out about Jay Z, right. Just all of it.

I just kind of find, like, I'm, as a fan, I'm having a hard time with the fall from grace of my. My idealism about the sort of rags to riches story of, like, a lot of heroes. But I just wonder if you can. Thank you. That's a fucking great question because it gets me up in the morning.

Max Bemis

It gets me out of bed, you know, it's. But honestly, so does rock and roll. I don't like to. It's harder as a white guy who didn't grow up fully at all on the streets and went to, like, a private school in LA to even let myself sometimes relate to my heroes, which is fucked up, but it's true. I just grew up too aware as a millennial of the disparity and privilege.

So I'd be like, yeah. And then, you know what I mean? Like, I'd be like, am I allowed to like this as much as I do? Because I feel kind of corny, you know what I mean? That said, as I got older, I forgave myself for being white and let myself relate a little bit more.

But I feel like, um, maybe this will help with that. Um, not maybe I'll wake up tomorrow and feel more because there are days I can't listen to anything. But I felt more like that about indie rock when we broke up because of me, too, you know, so. So for me, white guys like me became the villain in such an insane way because we kind of were more, you know, in the. In the terms of history, you know what I mean?

Like, we have been the actual villain historically. I mean, maybe in Africa, before we imported all the slaves, there was people who were terrible people. I know there were that said, globally, we were the villain more. So when it became so prevalent that it inserted itself into. I mean, it was always heinous.

And when you started to find out the sick facts that we were able to hide from, I couldn't. Especially. That's the thing about talking about bands that were, like, you were friends with and, like, different allegations and both. And those things, as, you know, guys are, like, intermingled, you know? So it's like, my buddy got canceled, you know, like, it's like, whoa, this is a guy who.

I grew up wanting to be in a band because of him. How do I now listen to that music? Anything like that is difficult, you know? And it's all degrees, too, because some people would just come out and be like, yeah, you know, I'm a lot. I was hiding this whole part of myself that I wasn't honest about, and it was.

It was hurtful to other people. Some people were full on pedophiles, so there's a range of, like, everyone kind of came out of themselves, and there were so many degrees of that that I myself was, like, in our last album, if, you know, the first record was written as a character on per. We literally had. I don't know if you know this, but the guy who he co produced, or he did all the music for Hedwig and the angry inch, he produced our first album, or co produced this. Stephen Trask.

Yeah. Wait, Stephen Trask? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's an amazing, talented, kind of great guy. And so, you know, we.

We were going to have talking interludes. It was going to be a full week. Interesting. And then on our very last record when we broke up, but I knew it was so meta that I knew it was a fake breakup. This was like, you know, a couple years after Jay Z, and I literally had to say, like, this is a fake breakup.

I'm sure in the letter, I'll be back in five years, desperate and needing it. See you then. But it was really did because, I mean, I put it, I've been doing this for 15 years. It was all I knew. And in that last album, I killed the character and made him into kind of a Patrick Bateman character because I still questioned the integrity of what I did for a living, what I stood for as an artist, and what being in a band meant, because there were so many people hurting people.

And I guess instead of looking at it like, oh, I may not really. I don't take advantage of people from my perspective. I'm not a predator. I've hurt people's feelings. I've been uncaring and maybe uncouth at times, but I'm not the same as Weinstein.

But, like, the first thing I did was look in the mirror, you know, to an extent that was maybe unhealthy. I've actually, with my therapist, it's funny because I have, like, elements of OCD, whatever. I have elements of a lot. But one of the things that's common is. Is believing you're a pedophile.

It's crazy. So I've read about this. A lot of people. I've watched whole interviews, and it's people who've had any kind of childhood sexual weird stuff, they themselves, even if you never act. I've heard of that, yeah.

Mm hmm. So. So for me, when you happened, I was like, okay, we're. We have to sac why I stopped playing, why I could get sexual too, because it was about phone sex. And that was all was written at the age of 25 about a consensual phone sex thing that I did with, you know, during my solo, been on tour years, you know, like, vaguely promiscuous, completely fun and consensual thing with a girl who was, like, two years younger than me.

But even that age difference, I felt creepy a little bit after because, like, she liked my band before. She liked me as a person. So I felt there was some power disparity even then. But then people came out and are like, this power disparity is the thing that is wrong with the culture and art and everything. I'm like, you're kind of right.

Fuck. And I have some weird small part to plan, you know what I mean? So. So to me, I just. When I look at the hip hop stuff, yeah.

Ben Lee

But I mean, I went through. I went through some of that, too, of being like, because, you know, I covered John Lennon. Woman is the n word of the world. You know.

I thought it was the wokest thing ever. Like, at the time when I did it, and I, you know, it took me, like, a lot of kind of just rethinking of realizing, like, wow, that's so interesting that not only is that not my word to sing, it's not even really Yoko's word to sing, but. Did you also later, like, did you also go, that said I wasn't a bad person for doing it and I was sincere in my, like, that's what I had to get to? I was like, yeah, I think I had fears, though. I did have fears that, like, it was gonna come out in.

So, like, I sort of decided for. Me, my fear was, I'm gonna be. Open talking about it because it's. Yeah, well, my fear was both that and that inwardly I would. In your case, it would be.

Max Bemis

And I've actually had this. I've written lyrics about slavery as a jew and stuff. So I wrote a song that actually referenced how a lot of hip hop artists are anti semitic in their lyrics, and they're saying, this is really bad. So there's a lot that says, well, yeah, oh, my heroes. I worked with Kanye, so, um, fucking.

I wrote a line, and this is uncouth again, which is that my people were slaves before yours invented hip hop. So that's about as insensitive as you can get when addressing a very real talk. You know, it was just. I was mad about it. I, like, pusha t came on saying something about jewelry store owners or something, and I'm like, mother fuck, we're both fucked.

You know, like, and I think there's something to that. But certainly re examining it. I don't like the idea that the only reason I had to re examine it was because some trolls were like, you're racist. If they've been like, max, you're definitely not racist. And the message of the song is to not be racist.

But maybe I'm black. Maybe express it a little bit in a different way, because that doesn't really make me want to listen. That's the different than, like, what we feared at the time, which was obviously the response to, you know, Trump was then the infighting and the meanness on the left. So, you know, that, to me, really did me in. So in terms of all this stuff where we are today with, you're putting out this new say anything record, which is obviously about having built into that, to the reclaiming of a name and of a project, is an element of making peace with the past or forgiveness of your younger self.

Ben Lee

Like. Like, what does this mean to you, putting out this new record and as say anything? Oh, well, thank you. Well, it just became integral again, the only reason. And we can get as far.

Max Bemis

I mean, I don't even know how much time we have. Certainly it's a novel, but things went on during this time that a lot of people have been through. But even if you say it to the average person who. It's kind of one of those stories where certainly I was made to question reality again, and not just because of these social factors that were just so constant. I mean, again, if you grow up in LA, if you grew up coming from Australia and then being courted by major labels and being on a soundtrack of a huge movie, all these things are really surreal and weird.

And that defined the first part of my career. And what I was, as I said, kind of forming a band to it was interesting and fun to rebel against that. And that's where the catharsis came. And to celebrate the fun of rebelling and the joy and the love and not just the negative aspects. Like, you know, that was an important part.

Our other biggest song is about finding love in the holocaust, you know, so it wasn't, um. Wasn't all hating it. But for me, the only reason that I felt like it was pertinent to do was because things in my personal life for the first time. And I do feel like this is maybe has to do with privilege and growing up, maybe in LA. I don't know.

When I talked to my wife about her childhood, in a way, I'm like, if I had your childhood, I would have been in, like, the most hardcore anarchist punk band and. Or a criminal. Like, I might have just been a criminal and so angry. And she had a pretty normal, happy american upbringing, you know, so. But it's, you know, whatever.

Texas. So for me, I got to. I live in Texas. I got to experience some of those things up front. There was stuff involving our kids.

And when it. I don't know if. I'm sure with you guys, I don't know what you've been through, but I do know that. And one thing most parents have in common is, like, someone getting mad at your kid for something they didn't do because they're like, a crotchety, uptight parent or the opposite. Or, like, have a doobie.

I don't know. You know what I mean? And you're like. And then it's coming from, like, a primal lion king place. And so it came from that I had been through stuff with my family, and I needed it as fuel.

So in this case, I feel more noble about the reasons of doing it, but I'm still doing it in a very, like, jokey way. I think if I, if I'd been too self righteous with that and not humanistic about it, I would have maybe murdered someone. You know what I mean? Because I'd be like, they're the bad guy. And that is what the lyrics are.

They're like, go die, but they're not. I don't really want these people to die. I just needed to sing about them dying or me being right and them being wrong, you know, similar to listening to Tupac, you know, because like, if you listen to hit em up, you know, I mean, I guess it's a terrible example, but still, I would like to think the reason I liked it as a twelve year old was because of the beauty of something about the battle rap, you know? Yeah, but so that's what I was relating to. And it felt needed because I just, I mean, I've been.

Yeah, I've been in a state. Let's just say that I've been in a state. I've been in one of my states. Well, man, I'm, I'm. I love what I've heard of the record.

Ben Lee

I can't wait to hear the rest of it. And we're. Thank you, thank you. So happy we got to. This is the, you know, we've known each other for a long time and is the longest conversation we've had.

I'm glad we got. I know, I love it and I'm always up for it. And, um, you know, again, thank you. Ione, like, fuck, you know, again, like, if this is the one thing I will say, I'll try to keep it brief. But like, one thing that hit me when I was listening to this, it came on and I'm in the shower and I'm.

Max Bemis

And I'm trying to. I'm like removing myself through dissociation by just like listening to what's, you know, the podcast. I'm like, take it in. Take in what they are saying. But also maybe it's triggering some weird meta textual thought of the world.

And you said something about, like, I don't really have a concept of my fans because for Ben, like, fandom is such a part of music, you know, or someone like Taylor Swift. But it is weirder if you're like, I imagine an actor or even a painter. Like, you're not engaging with your fans constantly. But that movie made me not only start a band, in a way, it was just the name. It was the perfect name to encapsulate that truer self.

Because later people thought that I did it on purpose because we're known for being overly honest and say anything, which I didn't even think of until, like, five years later. Cause you say anything on your mind? I'm like, no, because I really related to Lloyd Doppler. And I just had a. I had a crush on a girl I couldn't get in high school, and I thought that I could get her by starting a band called say anything.

So, you know, it's funny to that arc, all those archetypes, like, on a level of reading, like Shakespeare, when you relate to a doppler or something, you know, what happened to him after the movie. That's, you know. So I think about that because there's a weird symbolic reason I chose that. And then we became something that's so different from, like, a beautiful, sweet romantic comedy. Like, a band that sings about sex and drugs and all the terrible pain I've been through.

But, like, I found my way back to this thing that when I saw it as a teenager, I felt understood by. And your character as well. And your portrayal of that character was, like, gave me hope. And now my wife is. I deal with a wife who has daddy issues.

Ione Skye

Oh, there you go. Well, this was meant to be. Well, that's a great movie about it. It really puts both people in an empowered position. That's right.

Max Bemis

Yeah. That's so true. Well, man, so good to chat, everyone. Check out the new say anything record. Say anything is out.

Ben Lee

When is it out right now or out in a week or two? Or is that very soon, right? I don't know. I think it comes out in a month. I know it comes out at the same time of the anniversary of that record that we were on tour.

Max Bemis

Gotcha. So that's a beautiful record, too. If you haven't heard say anything is a real boy. Gorgeous record. And love you, man.

Ben Lee

Happy that you. Love you, buddy. Thank you. And happy that you're putting music out there. Awesome.

Max Bemis

Thank you, guys.

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SAY ANYTHING vs SAY ANYTHING

Primary Topic

Episode Summary

Main Takeaways

Episode Chapters

1: Introduction

2: Discussing the Film's Impact

3: Exploring the Band's Influence

4: The Intersection of Film and Music

5: Personal Reflections and Future Directions

Actionable Advice

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Transcript