Jealousy: Glennon & Abby Share It All

Glennon Doyle
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Welcome back to we can do hard things. Hi. Hi. It's just you and me, babe. Today I know.

Abby Wambach
Just you and me. Just you and me. You and me, babe. What we're gonna talk about today is something that we have talked about, oh, lo, so many times by ourselves. Can you tell us in our bed?

You and sister say, oh lo, so many a lot. I don't know what that means. You're probably just jealous because it's kind of like old fashioned victorian term, which is more in your lane, because you are a victorian on the inside. Yeah. Okay, so what is my jealousy about?

Glennon Doyle
Oh, here we are. Okay, so this episode, y'all, is about jealousy, okay? And we thought we had one question from a pod squatter about jealousy, and we thought we would just answer it in ten minutes and move on. We ended up talking about the depths of the jealousy in our relationship and what it means and what it doesn't, and we've come to many low. So many conclusions during this conversation, and it's been so helpful.

Abby Wambach
I know. I actually am so grateful that we. Because in marriage, you, whether you're in couples counseling, like, we process so much, but we've never done it in a way that we knew that this stuff would go out into the world. And so, to me, it was extraordinarily helpful because we were very conscientious of our words, which is really good for therapy, really good for communication and marriage, number one. And number two, we hadn't talked about this in a long time.

It's like the undertone, the knowing, like the. And I wouldn't say an elephant, but this thing in our relationship that we've never really kind of broken down into the details of what we really think and feel about it. And so, to me, I'm grateful. I feel like I learned a lot today. Yeah.

Glennon Doyle
And it feels like podsquad. Listen, you tell us what you think, but for me, what it came down to is trust, not just of each other, but of ourselves. And what I realized at the end of this conversation is I am really starting to trust the pod squad. Whoa. I think that that has, as always, boundaries helps trust, and I think I have gotten us a little bit off of social media.

And so the pod squad feels safe and real to me because I know that most people don't hate listen to podcasts. Podcasts hate listen, but they do hate follow. So I don't know. It's kind of a beautiful thing. I realized, oh, my God.

I'm saying things that I don't normally say out loud, and I think it's because I actually trust this community, but that's also because I have self trust enough to be like, actually, the social media thing is no good for me. Yeah. And you got you. I got me. Okay.

Abby Wambach
We can't go into the whole thing. Okay, okay, okay. They have to listen, y'all just listen. Tell us what you think. We love you.

Glennon Doyle
I don't know where this next one's gonna go, but I'm very curious to hear what you have to say. Abby, let's hear from Sarah. Okay. My name is Sarah. I am calling because I have not heard an episode on jealousy yet, though I have heard you touch on it a little bit throughout other episodes, and I would love to hear your experience with jealousy, how you manage it, what you do, what comes up.

Sarah
What are your major issues with jealousy also extension. Question for Glennon and Abby. I would like to know how you handle friendships with other women as a queer couple. I'm also queer. And I've noticed in the heterosexual system under world, there's a little bit of a clearer line.

Like, I'm a guy, I hang out with guys, I'm a girl, I hang out with girls. And maybe a guy taking out a woman to dinner who's not his wife would be a cause for concern. But in queer relationship and a lesbian relationship, how do you navigate who is a friend and a safe person and who is someone you might feel threatened by given that you're hanging out with mostly women. Thank you. I love your show so much.

Glennon Doyle
Oh, no, Sarah, if you could see us like squirm, processing our emotions in real time right now. Abby is squirming, we are stretching, we are moving, we are sweating. I would like to say that I wish that my answers would be different. So you're going to tell the truth, but you, you have. Okay.

Okay, but that's interesting. So you have an ideal self and you have an actual self. Yeah. I don't even know where to start with this. We have jealousy issues, Sarah.

I feel like they're getting less and less. Yeah. As we get, what? Older. We trust each other more.

I don't know what. Yeah, well, I mean, little context though. Our jealousy issues are kind of fair because of where we came from. Okay. Yeah.

So here's the deal, Sarah. I have never. I'm just going to give you my trauma first as an excuse for my jealousy because context. And then I will also. Okay.

I have been like a kind of serial monogamous my whole life. You too? Yep. But whenever I've been in a monogamous relationship, I have been the only monogamous one. It's been very mono.

Okay. It's just me. So you've been cheated on in every relationship? I'm never single. I have never, ever since high school.

And I've probably been in about like seven, six or seven long term relationships. Right. I mean, long term meaning some of them are high school. Like I was in 10th grade and. Right, yeah.

Abby Wambach
I mean, I would say you probably. Had three or four, but no, I think it's been about five. Okay. Okay, great. Five.

We will land on five and talk about it later. Okay, great. I feel jealous because I feel like I don't think that math adds up and my jealousy is like, okay, let's. Who are we talking about? Okay, thank you.

Glennon Doyle
We've got. When I was in. Okay, well, I want to start early then. When I was in 8th grade, I was very in love with someone named Adam. Okay.

He cheated on me. Okay. How long were you in that relationship for? Who knows? It felt like a very serious relationship to me.

It might have been a week. Okay. Okay. Then I dated a person named. Should I change their names?

I'm going to start with the first letter. That's right. And then change it. Sorry, Adam, I already did. You.

There was a Joe. Okay. And I was a sophomore. Okay. That was like a year long.

Abby Wambach
Okay. Two years, maybe. I don't know. Yeah, and we will never know because sister would be good with the facts right here because she would know all of these dates. And then there was.

Glennon Doyle
We'll call him Bill. Okay, so that's three. Right? And then there was, well, Craig. And everyone knows Craig.

You're right. It's four. Ah. I knew it. Okay.

Abby Wambach
There wasn't a secret one in there. The point is that I thought in all of those relationships that I was in a exclusive relationship. And it wasn't just my feeling like that had been discussed and not a one of them ended up being exclusive. All of them were cheating on me in one way or another.

Glennon Doyle
I'm not here to judge them or myself at this moment because I have done lots of judging in privately over the last. Whatever. It's interesting. I do see that there's one common denominator in all of those relationships, and it's me. So I assume there's something there.

But I present all this to say that when I entered the relationship with Abby, I was absolutely certain, even though I don't think I would have known this, but my body was certain that I was going to be cheated on again. So I was preparing myself because I knew I couldn't control the cheating because I never had been able to before. But I felt like I could control my vulnerability to it. Like I could control whether I was stunned and wiped out again by it. No, that's not true.

You can't really control that. But that's what I told myself. So the way that I protected myself was to just be ready and often to search for evidence of it. Cause it's better to be the detective that discovers it than to have a detective knock on your door and say, we have discovered this thing about your life. Is that true?

That's what I. That's what you thought. That was my old way. Got it. I've told this story before, but, I mean, it got to the point where, Abby, I think you walked out of the shower once, and I was going through your phone, and this is very early on, like, there were no signs that anything.

I just was protecting myself. And I used to be so crazy jealous. Oh, my God. I think something that is interesting about the jealousy between the two of us is that I am. And still, still I get jealous.

When you have any apparent connection to someone who, quote, looks like me. A parent connection. Apparent. Like something that I can see. Oh, not a space parent.

No, apparent, like, clear. A clear, clear connection. Like, even if it's just you like them or you're friends with them or they like you or whatever, I feel alarmed when it feels like that person is in my femme lane. You tell the people, let's just get me out of the hot seat and move to you. Yeah.

Tell us your jealousy origin story. My jealousy origin story? Basically, I was in a lot of relationships with bisexual women, which many of whom left to go be with their husbands. Not that they were with the husbands, but we would split up and then they would end up being with men. And, you know, I've had partners who emotionally and physically have cheated on me before, and it left me feeling like I was the problem.

Yes. And that there was something that I was unaware of that I was doing in the relationships that was causing this behavior, that I wasn't good enough, that I wasn't lovable, all this stuff. So knowing all that, when we first got into, there's this tug, push, pull where we have incredible connection that I am terrified that anybody else will come into our lives and even a millimeter separate us. And so I have been very vocal with you about some of the people that have come into our lives that I have an insecurity about, that I feel insecure. And early on in our marriage, I think I would say something like, be careful with that one.

Abby Wambach
It would be so passive aggressive. Be careful with that one. And I'd put all the onus back onto you rather than honoring my insecurity and owning my own insecurity. And that's unfair. But we all have our trauma, and, like, when trauma rises, like, it's hard to know how to navigate that.

So we have had a couple of people that have come into our lives that I feel really uncomfortable and insecure. Maybe I have not said the word insecure. Cause that feels less cool and strong. So I'd be say I feel uncomfortable in some way around it. And many of these folks are still in our lives.

We just had to work through it. Yeah, that's interesting. Sometimes you've been right. Yeah. Where the person actually eventually did cross a line that we were uncomfortable with, but oftentimes that wasn't true at all.

Yeah. The thing that works for you and me is, like, true transparency. Like, I feel 100% confident to come to you and you not freak out. In my past, I would come to the person with a fear or an insecurity, and I would feel like I'd be gaslit. And that's something that you don't do.

You're like, oh, wow. Okay. And you really think through it and hear me and see it from my perspective, and then also the way that you handle, because when I come to you with an insecurity, you then have a choice. You get to either continue that relationship with no difference or you can kind of come at that relationship with a little bit of difference so that it makes me feel more comfortable and more secure. And you are really good at doing that.

And so I don't know. I just think that that's really been helpful because it's given our relationship and the relationship with another person space to be what it's supposed to be rather than my imagination of what it could be. Worst case scenario, you know? And I do think when we're watching a show and somebody who presents more masculine, a woman who presents more masculine and wears the clothes that I wear, and you're like, oh, my gosh. You said one time, that is a beautiful human.

My feelings got hurt. Yeah. Do you remember who that was? No, I would never. Even if I did, I would not say it out loud.

Glennon Doyle
Right. I remember that moment. And then you just looked at me like I had just stabbed you in the arm. Yeah. Cause it was a non binary person.

Abby Wambach
I thought that that lane was kind of solely, like, my attraction was, like, in that lane was, like, me and only me. Oh, wait a minute. Okay, so is it when I allude to something like that? Is it that you suddenly feel like my attraction to you is less individual? It's like, oh, no, she just has a sexuality that is this type, and that's not what we are telling ourselves.

Glennon Doyle
We are telling ourselves, like, early days, when I said onto a freaking magazine reporter, when they were asking me, what are you? What are you? And I said, I'm Abby sexual. Like, I can't, first of all, believe that I said that. That's so cheesy.

But you like that vibe. I do. It makes me feel safe and good. And also, I will be totally honest right now, and this is gonna make me feel, like, a little bit icky and cringy for my own self. Okay.

Abby Wambach
I actually feel that way about you. I know that I have claimed myself to be lesbian, and I have been in many lesbian relationships. But the way that my brain and my heart work because of my extraordinary monogamy, I, like, literally have no eyes for other people. Doesn't matter what they are. Okay, so let's say you watch a show, your truest honest self here.

Glennon Doyle
Pretend this chair will shock you if it's not totally true. Okay, so you're watching a show and there's someone who is beautiful. You don't think that person is beautiful? Oh, no, I do. I think they're beautiful, but I don't.

Abby Wambach
It's not on the same neural pathway that makes me go, oh, I want to have sex with them. Like, their kind of beauty is a kind of beauty I would want to sleep with. That's not something that I have ever thought since meeting you about another person. So you notice the beauty, but it's like noticing a beautiful flower. That's right.

Glennon Doyle
Or something. You can appreciate the beauty, but there's no desire attached to it. Yeah. And there's no meaning to it. For me, it's just like an open, like, oh, a factual thing.

Abby Wambach
And maybe your attraction for other people is different than my kind of attraction, but I don't associate it with what maybe other people do when talking about attraction, like, oh, I'm attracted to that person. I want to be with that person. I want to see them naked, and I want to sleep with that person. Like, I know that's generalization on attraction here, but I'm like, oh, interesting. That's it.

It never goes a step further. Yeah, I always think it's so interesting when we're hanging out with a couple and they are freely expressing their appreciation for other people's beauty or in the relationship, and we are so, oh, no, I feel that that is a very, whenever I am around it, I feel like that is a very evolved way to be. Yeah, we're not there yet. We're not evolved about this. No, we're not there yet.

The other day, I think I said something, and as soon as it came out of my mouth, I felt bad about it because I thought that maybe it made you feel bad. Oh, it was Craig's sister. I was like, she's so beautiful. And that was, like, real for me. Then I thought about it through your eyes, and I didn't want you to have any feelings about it.

And so I think I probably stumbled my words after that, but it was just like a factual statement leading and having no other meaning. I think you probably read my energy in that moment. And I did stiffen a little bit. But the reason I stiffened is because. And this is not correct.

Glennon Doyle
Okay, don't be like this, people. But the kids were there, and in my head, I was doing mental gymnastics about. I don't like. Oh, for them. Yeah, for them.

I just don't like beauty standards confirmed by us in front of the kids. I don't know how to explain it. I just don't like when we define what is beautiful and it matches what culture has defined as beautiful, and then we say that to the kids. I don't know how to explain that in a way, but that's what was going on in my body in that moment. I get it.

Abby Wambach
And that sounds right. Really? Yep, you're right. It's like, if you see, like, someone who's, like, a, you know, six foot two, blonde, big boobed, whatever, like, whoever's, like, the standard. Six foot two, blonde.

Glennon Doyle
I don't know, whatever's the standard. I don't know, like, the standard of white supremacy, giant. Okay, whatever. I don't know. Height.

I'm very strange. All of us tall girls. Tall girls around are, like, clapping so hard. Cause none of us. Six foot two, blonde, big boobed.

Abby Wambach
And maybe I'm wrong, but I think that a lot of us tall girls don't like our tallness because. Yeah, we just don't like whatever we have. Yeah. But my point is, I feel like there's something that yabba talks about that always makes me, like, talk to yabba, blight. Like, unfurl inside.

Glennon Doyle
Like, I'm like, oh, that's true. I like when beauty is something that we. Because beauty should be something that's so idiosyncratic, you know? It's like something inside of us sees something that lights us up from the inside. And so beauty is so personal, and so I love it when people notice something that's beautiful to them, that it feels personal.

It doesn't feel like, oh, yeah, the culture has taught her that that's beautiful. So she says, that's beautiful. I don't know. Do you know how? Yeah, I mean, it really makes sense.

Abby Wambach
And especially in front of the kids. Okay, here's what I mean. This one time, we were in Hawaii, and we were on a family vacation, and we had just gotten done with a day on the beach, and we were all together as a family. And we stopped by this, like, pokey stand on the side of the road, and we were just all sitting there. We were all, like, salty.

Glennon Doyle
And. And tish looked at me across. Or maybe it was Emma. I don't remember, across the table and said, mom, you're beautiful. And I felt it.

I felt like she looked at me and she saw something that made her unfurl from the inside that was true to her. I could accept that. Like, I felt it when I am dolled up, hair bleached. And by the way, I don't do this anymore. But the decades I spent with my anorexic self, hair bleached, lashes on, spanx on, walking out into the world, and somebody would say to me, you're so pretty.

I never, ever felt that as personal to me. What I felt like they were saying is they were looking at me and they were thinking, wow, you did a good job matching yourself to the cultural expectation in our white supremacist world of beauty standards. Yeah, you must have worked your ass off for that. Good job looking outside yourself, gathering a bunch of data about what this world decides it has worth, and painstakingly molding yourself to that model. Like when people said, you're so pretty at that time, I heard, you're a good soldier.

You're a good soldier. It had nothing to do with beauty. Like true beauty, how I feel about it.

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Abby Wambach
So I think we've digressed a little bit. Yes, but I liked that digression. No, I know. But I do want to get a little bit to more of the question that Sarah asked, because I think it's important. How do we discuss our jealousy?

How do we get through our jealousy? What is jealousy? Yeah, what is jealousy? I think it's the belief, the fallacy that we own somebody else and nobody else is allowed to be a part of that ownership. Yes, I get that.

Glennon Doyle
I think that's right. Cause I do. Also, I do believe that I own you. And I don't want anyone else thinking that they can even rent you. Yes, exactly.

Yeah. Damn it. And it's not healthy for sure. And I think that we have some work to do around this. I do, too, because I do think it's taken us both a long time because of our backgrounds.

Abby Wambach
Like, first couple of years, it was so love and everything, but we were both kind of, like, still side eying each other to see any break, look for any kind of chink in the armor. Yes. And I think that we've gotten far. Here we are, like, seven years later or eight years later, and I think that we're just now starting to believe. I truly think that this is true, that this is it, that I actually am starting to trust you.

I did a therapy session, and I couldn't say it out loud. You couldn't say I trust Glennon because it was too terrifying. It was too terrifying. And then I forced myself to come to say it to you. I want you to know that I trust you.

And what I meant was, like, don't fuck this up. Yeah, yeah, I know. You said, I trust you like it was a threat. It was. It is a threat.

And that's an uninvolved way of explaining. Maybe it's not even a true way of saying I trust you. Cause I'm threatening you. It's like, with narrow eyes. I trust you, motherfucker.

Yeah, exactly. And so, like, I wanna get to the place where it's like, no, I trust her with every relationship she will ever have for the rest of her life. It's so terrifying, though, because it's like, true trust is like, here I give you the power to annihilate me. Yep. But that is true anyway.

And that's just true. That's love. That is the definition of love, is that when you get into a relationship with anybody and you love them and you truly love them, giving them access to truly annihilating you, I think that is the risk we all take. Yeah. And you just have to do it over and over again.

Glennon Doyle
Because if you don't do it, even if you've been cheated on in every relationship of your life, like me. Not this one. Right. If you don't give over the power of annihilation, you're already annihilated. That's exactly right.

Abby Wambach
Then you're not fully there. Then you're always waiting for the shoe to drop. Then you're always looking for evidence and you're always even keeping your eye open. I just wanted to say also that Sarah called out. How tricky.

Yeah, friendships. This is in queer relationships, but it should be this tricky in all relationships. It's just that in heterosexual relationships, it's easier to be like, that's a guy. So, no, you can't hang out with him. That's a girl.

Glennon Doyle
So, no, you can't. It's a fake power control. That's right. Right. It's a fake safety mechanism.

It's like the manifestation of the bullshit christian rule. Like, I don't hang out with women for more than ten minutes, which is really just a complete denial of everyone's full humanity. And, like, the goal, I think, for us, as we keep going through our marriage, is to, when insecurity rises, try to handle that so we don't even have to go to the other person and to completely trust. And, like, over these last seven or eight years, I have learned to really trust you. And so the more we keep going, I think that the less the jealousy will happen because the more certain, I guess I don't even know if certainty is the right goal to look towards.

Safe. The more safe I will feel and the more healed the wounds inside of me we get. But for now, it's a beautiful thing that we are protecting each other's trauma. Yeah, that is exactly right. If somebody was attacked by a tiger and then they got into a marriage, it would be okay for the other partner to be like, I know it's weird to never go to the zoo, but I'm gonna choose that because it's your particular trauma.

Abby Wambach
Yeah. That was something that was really important in our vows, that we were never going to use the deepest wounds against each other. Yeah. Because it's like the should of it all can really fuck you up. Like, we should be able to do this.

Glennon Doyle
We should be able to do this. Well, the thing will always remain that we are human beings and should helps us. Not at all. I also think that there is a way that jealousy has actually. If you're a jealous person in some ways, it has actually nothing to do with your relationship, and it's stuff that you can help in your own individual work.

Because for me, letting go of trying to control other people's brains is part of this. And what I mean by that is. Okay, I'm just going to give a total random example, but let's say you're at an event and there's a bunch of femme women just like me. Yes. Okay.

I'm annoyed even talking about it, but just, like, gaga ing over you, what I'm saying to the pod squad, because I love you and I'm gonna be vulnerable with you, is I know Abbie's not gonna cheat on me with those women. I just don't even want them thinking. I get it. That they have a chance that they have in that they might if they tried hard enough. I don't want them to even think it.

That is my jealousy. Now, listen to how insane that is. What I would like to do to solve my jealousy is to just control millions of women's brains. If I could just control your brain. Don't even think it.

Abby Wambach
Yeah. So what I'm trying to connect that with is my work has largely been to understand and accept that I cannot control other people's thinking. That's right. I cannot control other people's narratives. I am not responsible for changing or controlling the narrative of anyone except for my own.

Glennon Doyle
So I have to allow everyone to think whatever they want. That is insanity to me. I have to let everyone think whatever they want. Want whatever they want. Imagine whatever they want.

Wow. I need to tell you something more embarrassing. Okay. And I don't know if you can relate to this. I think that you can, but.

Abby Wambach
And this is so unhealthy, and I know it, but I kind of love when you get a little jealous. It makes me feel like you love me. I love when you get jealous because it makes me feel less crazy, because I'm always the jealous one. You're more jealous than me outwardly. Oh, it's because I tell you the truth, when I feel vulnerable.

Glennon Doyle
Yeah, that's not fair for you not to. No, I know, I know. I go through a process of insecurity that I think through and I'm like, you're fucking crazy. Sometimes I go through my process of insecurity and I come out the other side and I talk to you about it. Recently, I had to have a conversation with you about something.

Abby Wambach
And the fact that we can come to each other with this jealousy is everything because it's going to happen. We're human beings for whatever reasons, for whatever our backgrounds are, the way that we hold space and hold each other's jealousy when it shows up. That's why I think it works is because you don't fly off the handle. I wasn't. When you first were looking at your phone, I wasn't.

Give me my fucking phone back. Like, what are you doing? I was like, oh, what else do you need to see? I mean, pod squad, if you have not heard that story before, when she caught me with her phone in my hand, going through her texts, she looked at me and said, oh, honey, what else do you need? Do you want my email password?

Glennon Doyle
What else do you need? Which I don't even know what to say about that. Yeah, I understand that for some people, that's an invasion of privacy. I totally get it. But based on your wounds, based on me knowing your wounds, based on my wounds, that felt like such an easy thing to do.

Abby Wambach
That felt like the easiest thing to do. The thing that I think that most partners would really benefit from by just really being like, oh, what do you want to know? Is jealousy like a deferred trust? Like, what I do think is interesting is while I am working on trusting you, which I do now, what I trust most and forevermore is myself. And I think one of the things that infidelity does is it's not just about breaking trust with the other person.

Glennon Doyle
It's not just that you go around not trusting other people your whole life. What's so fucked up about it is that it makes you not trust yourself. Yeah, you're gaslighting your own self because. You have been allowing yourself to gaslight yourself. Or I have had relationships where I kind of suspected the other person was cheating, but then they told me so many times, and then I talked myself out of it over and over again.

I have had that experience. I have had the experience where I was completely and totally blindsided by it, and I didn't have any sex. Suspicion. The cruelty of it is that it makes you think that you can't trust yourself to know other people or make decisions about yourself, because there were probably. So many different signs and intuitive or instinctive feelings that you had prior to the telling of it, prior to the truth coming out.

Abby Wambach
And those moments, I think, are where the wounds are created, because those moments, you have this instinct, whether it's fear or jealousy or whatever something is happening, some part in you is coming up. And when you get gaslit or lied to for a considerable amount of time, you start to not trust your own instinct or your own feelings that arise. And so then when the house of cards falls down and they come to you with the information, the actual truth, or even half of the truth, or a 10th of the truth, or a little bit of the truth, or, oh, no, it was just an emotional affair. Those things make you feel not only devastated by the actual trauma, by the betrayal, but it makes, to me, it was more devastating. Because I knew it.

Glennon Doyle
Yes. And I lied to myself, and I pretended not to know it. And then because of all of those circumstances, then I don't really trust myself anymore or the feelings that arise. And so you end up keeping people so far away, not just because you don't trust other people, but because you don't trust yourself. You think, I have to keep you so far away because I don't even trust that if I start feeling suspicious, I'll handle my business.

Abby Wambach
That's exactly right. I will be totally annihilated. That's exactly what I'm. I will gaslit myself. I will get to the point of ruin again.

Glennon Doyle
Yeah, but I think there's an and both here. I think that my work has been okay. There's enough evidence here with you that is not just outside, but inside my body that I can trust you. And one of the reasons that I can trust you and let you close is that I know that I have my own back, that the second I start to feel something is off, I am going to honor that. It's not going to be a slippery slope anymore.

I am going to not gaslight myself. If I'm in a relationship where somebody betrays me or my trust in whatever way, I'm going to get my ass out. Right. So it's like sometimes the only people who can actually trust other people are the people who deeply trust themselves. It's a very big act of power to trust another person and let them in because it implies I've got my own back here.

I can let you in because I can get you the fuck out anytime I want to. For me, that's probably too belligerent, but that's where I am now. That rings true. That rings really true. And also, I'm sure everything that we have been saying is couched.

Abby Wambach
And I just want to say this. It's couched all in our own idea and our own experience with the traumas that we experience throughout our life. And so it's very personal to you and me. Yeah. So I just want to make sure that we're not claiming this is the way jealousy is.

Glennon Doyle
Oh, God, I hope not. I hope not everybody is this. I hope there's more healthy versions of it out there. This is just kind of how we run through it. And it's not a perfect circle.

Abby Wambach
It's like some days it just shows up. And I think that we have found a way to communicate that isn't scary. I think we have also, when in doubt, we have prioritized each other's comfort over what is normal or sane. That's right. And that is right.

Glennon Doyle
That is what we might be moving towards. Like, in a lot of ways in our life. I think that's kind of how we've built trust. We've had situations where you tell me, I don't like that. I don't know why I don't like that blossoming friendship.

And I have, well, forever. I didn't trust my own gaydar or whatever about this because no one has worse gaydar than me. I didn't know I was gay. I didn't know my kids were gay. I'd never know anyone's gay because I think that we.

Abby Wambach
Yeah. Yep, you're right. But it's so confusing. I've had situations where I have looked at that blossoming friendship or that whatever and thought, oh, I really like this person. I really like this friendship.

Glennon Doyle
I think this would be a good thing for me. And I have thought really carefully about. And truthfully, I'm thinking I don't want to hurt that other person's feelings. Yeah. I'm thinking that person needs me.

Or, I don't know, maybe I like being needed in that way. I'm not sure. It's usually somebody who needs something from me, right? It's a random new person who showed up in your life, that they have some sort of crisis or problem, that you're the person they've selected. That is how I always start my friendships.

Abby Wambach
I know. And so then, because it's starting in such an intense way that also feels out of balance to me. It's like intimacy skipping. We haven't even met. You know what I'm saying?

Like, we. We don't even know each other. And here you are, like, diving into the most intense shit of their personal lives. And that is hard for me because there is a way that you interact with folks in this way that is so beautiful and so loving, and it reminds me of the way that you parent our children, that you are just, like, so much love, and it's so beautiful. And if I were on the other end of that, I wonder if any of it could be confusing to them.

Glennon Doyle
I think that it is simpler for me and easier and more controllable and safer has been over time. I'm always, like, the EMT friend. Like, I am the person who you should come to when you have a crisis. Yeah, I will get in it with you. It won't even make sense.

I will get in it with you in a way your best friend won't. Yes. I will show up for you. You're the best. Who the hell is this person?

Coming in like a tornado, helping me with my shit? But then you must know that you will never hear from me again. Yeah. No, it's true. But that's not normal.

Abby Wambach
No, I know, but I just want you to know that there are people that fall in love with the emts that saved their lives. Yeah, I hear that. And I think it's not totally healthy. It's like, I don't know how to slowly and deliberately, insanely build friendship. I don't know how to do that.

Glennon Doyle
It feels stressful to me. It feels like it's gonna take too long. It's gonna take too long. I'm gonna. What is it called when people fall in love with their therapists?

Trauma bonding? No, it's mirroring or some sort of. Anyway, I understand why that would cause. Is that jealousy on your part? Because you're also trying to control that other person's narrative.

You don't want them to think that I love them. Yeah. I'm scared that some of the ways in which you communicate with these very new friends that are in a crisis could be perceived, from their perspective as little drops of real feelings. Okay. Are you worried about me getting wrapped up in that and also feeling little seeds growing with that other person?

Abby Wambach
No, I'm worried about the other person feeling feelings for you because you're amazing and you're beautiful, and if anybody in the whole world understands that it is this guy. This guy. Like, I am the one who understands how, especially when you're in a crisis, how wonderful you are and how loving you are and how if I'm them, that's the thing. If I am those people, I'm falling in love with you because I did. And so that's part of the thing that I get a little confused about, is I don't want anybody to fall in love with you.

But then I'm also like, how has not everybody fallen in love with you? I think we're both trying to control other people's brains, then totally, I don't. Want to do that. Of course, in my, like, capital s self, I can't do that. I know that.

But then again, I also feel like if we really want to keep protecting the marriage, our connection, our love, there are times where I've called marriage and I'm like, mm mm. I don't feel good about it. And you're like, okay, great. I don't know why I can't locate. Why?

Glennon Doyle
Well. Cause that's the moment. You know, it's trauma. Yeah. And you just say, okay.

Abby Wambach
Yeah, yeah. But that's also because you're not trying to control me. That is something that some couples could use against each other is just constantly say, it's trauma. Yeah, but no, we don't do it often. It's like once every three or four years that something or someone comes into our life that I'm like, I don't.

This feels off. Like, it just feels a little bit too much. And so you change, because the other thing of it, too, is like valuing this non friendship with somebody else more than our marriage. It doesn't make sense to compare the two in a way, because we would always choose our marriage more than anything. But I think that's too simplifying it.

Glennon Doyle
So if I were like, look, value our marriage. Don't go to those places where all those femme women are falling all over you. Value our marriage. That's oversimplifying it because, no, what you're doing is your work out in the world. And for me, I think it's not about the friendship.

Clearly, I'm never going to talk to this person after I get help them through the crisis. For me, it's about my self worth in the world. It's like, oh, I know how to do this. Even if it's not healthy, which, as I'm hearing myself talk, I don't think it's the most healthy form of service or connection, maybe. But it is what I know.

It's like how I know how to be important. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Okay.

What we can say. Sarah. Sarah, if your point was to call in and be more confused after you heard the response than you were before, you're welcome. You are welcome. But what I do think is true is that jealousy, we put it in this teeny little category, like it's just one thing we have to worry about.

And the reason why it's complicated is because it's about everything. It's not one little thing. It's about trust. It's about self trust. It's about love.

Abby Wambach
It's about communication. It's about connection. It's about being annihilated. It's about friendship. It's everything.

Transference is the word. Our producer just texted it. Transference is the word that happens when you are, like, in therapy and you fall in love with your therapist.

Glennon Doyle
Well, if it's true that people fall in love with a person that swept into their life, helped them with the crisis, and left. There are so many people in love with me out there. I know. That's my problem is I do think that there are a lot of people that might think they know you, that might think that they have real feelings for you. Well, as a public person, it's just a thing.

Abby Wambach
I know that that's true for me. Exactly that people think that they know me and they think that they actually have real feelings for me, but it's just. It's not true. And I also want to thank you for honoring my trauma through all of this. Oh, same.

Because I really don't think that I could be in a position to even start thinking about really trusting you. Yeah. It's like people think that what will help people out of their trauma to more normalcy is if they just keep telling them that's not how they should be. Yeah, like you could have when I was looking through your phone, the more logical response would have been, why do you need that? What are you doing?

Glennon Doyle
And instead for you to take the approach of, what else do you need? You didn't think, why the hell did you need that, you loser? You thought, oh, it's so sad, but also precious that you need that. And what else can I give you that you need that will help build trust. Yeah.

Which is quite a beautiful thing. And I will say this. I trust you. I really. No, aggressive, passive aggressive threat.

I trust you too. I think you're the first person in my whole life that I have ever truly trusted with my sincere happiness and with my sincerest. Like, the love that I have. Like, you protect me and you hold the love that you have for me, precious. And I do think that jealousy is real and a human.

Abby Wambach
And I think that we're going to keep working on this forever, you know, and keep talking about it, and I'm sure it will evolve and morph into different things. But more than anything, I feel stunned that I could trust somebody. And you've gone through it. You've gone through it all. And you've proven to me more times than are required.

And it's like the relentlessness to continue to prove it is what makes me know. It's not like a one time thing where you're like, oh, no, now, because I told you you could look through my phone, now you must trust me. It's like, no, it's constant. And because we're lesbians who work together and are together twenty four seven, I know that I'm constantly codependent and meshed in ways that my work, too, is to not try to manage and worry so much about any kind of disconnection for fear that it could threaten the relationship. Right.

And that's ultimately, I think, what jealousy is, too.

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Glennon Doyle
I also think there's just letting the world love your person is okay. Like when I think about what little moments that I get jealous, like when someone comes up to us and they this is annoying of me, but, like when someone comes up to us and I can see that they're not seeing me at all. Yeah. And they're only seeing you. And the eyes are locked in and they are like, I love you.

I need a picture. I need a whatever. And I'm like, oh, my God. I think what's happening in my body is I'm like, they're not seeing us as a unit. I don't even exist.

They're just seeing Abby. They only know Abby without Glennon, right? And I think I'm getting closer to the point where I'm like, oh, my God, that's so beautiful. Yeah. But there's always a part of me that feels like I'm going to disappear.

Abby Wambach
That makes a lot of sense. Like, oh, my God, am I visible? Like, do I exist? And when we first met, that was more profound. I think now the tides have shifted a little where it actually happens.

The reverse, where people come straight up to you. And because I have had this established fame ish thing that people know me for what I did on the soccer field, I have not had that insecurity of becoming invisible. And so when people come up to us now and they're like, Glennon. And then ultimately, it always is like, oh, and Abby. But it's this thing.

Like, I love being your wife, particularly yours. And I can imagine what it must feel like to feel that people don't see you. And so I don't know how to help in those moments. I mean, maybe yesterday felt really good for you at target. Oh, my God.

Glennon Doyle
Let us end with this gem. Yesterday at Target, I went in for something, candy for the kids. So $380 later. Oh, my gosh. It was 190.

Yeah, whatever. We just. You don't even stand by the cash register. I can't look. She goes away.

I cannot look. I. And the cash register. I'm so upset by how much we spend there. We pull in line, and the cash register's kind of giving me the.

Abby Wambach
Looking at me, looking back to the stuff, looking at me, looking back to the products, scanning the items. Why? Because you thought. Because he was recognizing you. Recognizing me.

And I'm like, okay, here it comes. Right? And he was, like, mentioning you didn't happen to play soccer. And I said, I did. And he said, are you?

And I said, I'm Abby. And he's like, oh, my gosh. And so he then goes into his history, and he was a coach, et cetera, et cetera. And then I walk back up. Cause I'm trying to miss the total.

Glennon Doyle
So I make myself busy, and then I come back after the total is done. It's not good. It's a sleeping beauty approach to finances. I know that. Okay.

Abby Wambach
It's bad. I know. I'm working on it. Maybe I'm thinking about working on it. Yeah.

There you go. And then the man looks at me, then looks back at Abby, and he. Says, no, no, hold on. He doesn't say he looks at you. Looks back at me, and then he motions with his hand back to Glennon as if.

Glennon Doyle
Who's this right? But then he says, oh, is that. Your, is that your. And what he was going to say, which was very apparent to both of us, what he meant was, is that your child? The man at target thought, and I did have overalls like I did.

Look, I don't know. Anyway, he thought, well, you're smaller than I am. Was Abby's child. Yeah. And so I tried to put this guy out of his misery because I knew it was gonna end badly for him.

Abby Wambach
And he kept doing this waving motion with his hands. Is that your, is that your. And he did not mean wave. Just so you know, it was very obvious. And I go, that's my wife.

And he was like, oh, oh. And then he started to kind of, oh, well, oh, oh. And right at that point, the receipt comes right out. And he hands me the receipt, and I said, I hope you have a good day. Yeah.

Glennon Doyle
And, like, there was no malice. There was no for sure. He. His mind couldn't compute that we would be married. So it went to child.

But he was a sweetheart and no pod squad. If you knew. What's the first thing I did before we were out of target? I was texting the family chain saying, you all the target man just thought I was Abby's child. Like, Craig was laughing so hard.

He's like, what did you say? I said, I love you. That is what I said to that man. I love you. And then I said, if I had a nickel for every time somebody thought I was Abbi's child, I would have five cents.

Abby Wambach
Oh, you guys. Okay, let's end this very strange but episode that I loved. Babe, you did this conversation? Yeah. Let's hear from a pod squatter of the week.

Abby
Hi, my name is Abby, and I live in Minnesota. And when I just heard Abby talk about how she moved behind the goal in your daughter's game, memory instantly came back to me, where I was playing hockey when I was, like, ten years old, and it was overtime, and I split the defense, and I scored top shelf. And I remember just looking up above the net and seeing my dad there. And all he did was just nod once and give me a grin. And I will never forget that moment.

And now I'm wondering how often my dad moved to that goal, met just like Abby did, and wondering if he knew what he was doing, because I always thought he was trying to get away from the catty mom. But now I'm thinking, holy crap, I was gravitating towards him, and we had this moment of just, like, pure joy and proudness and, oh, I can relate so much. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, I. That makes me emotional.

Abby Wambach
I don't think. I don't know if I mentioned this, but I do. Can you tell the story, though, so that everyone who didn't listen to that episode knows? Yeah. Okay, so, the episode that I'm talking about is episode 289, the sports.

The kind of embarrassing psychology of winning and losing. Check it out. So, oftentimes, during Amma's game, her soccer games, I basically. If it's just kind of like a stale period of time throughout the game, I will get up and move my seat for a few reasons. One, because as an athlete, I remember how conscious I was of where my mom was, and that being kind of a stability, a stabling force, and also a security blanket.

And I think during Ama soccer games, I get an intuition is really what I get. And I believe kind of what you just said, that if I move closer to the goal, I believe that my energy that moves closer to the goal that we're trying to score on will help Emma and her team score a goal. Now, I know how weird that sounds. I don't think it's weird. I just think that there's more to sports than just, like, tactics and technique and physicality.

I think that energy plays a big role. And so, yeah, that's kind of what I've done, and sometimes it doesn't work. PS, of course. But when you think about, first of all, the beauty of Abby revisiting those memories and realizing that her dad was there because he knew that she would come towards him like a magnet, energetically. Is so beautiful.

Glennon Doyle
Like, it makes me get the chills when I think about your dad. Actually, when I think about you remembering that Abbie and, like, seeing your dad's little smile and realizing what was behind it is so beautiful. But it's also the most beautiful metaphor for parenting. Yep. There are parents who just stand on the sideline and scream at their children to run towards the goal, just tell them what to do.

And there are parents who move and go where they want their kids to go, because our kids will go where we are. And so the parenting approach of stopping, telling them what to do all the time and instead just being who we want them to be, just calmly going where we want them to go, knowing that they will end up where we are and who we are and what. We model, well, they will end up where they should be, and they will end up who they should be. I don't believe that any of my movement is to tell Emma that I'm the magnet here. And if you just follow me over here, then you will become me.

Abby Wambach
I want her to learn the lessons of individuating and also the lessons of deeply trusting herself and her own intuition. And, yes, energetically. I'm, like, hoping to pull her along, but not to become me or to be next to me, but to become herself and to prove to herself over and over again that she's got herself. Because the parents who are standing on the sidelines yelling, come on, go, go. That has, unfortunately, its place in sport, but the parent who's silent on the sidelines, who might move their body so that their kids can energetically become themselves, it's like.

I don't know how to say this, but I think it's an important element in watching our kids play sports. We want our kids to play sports so that they can figure out who they are. Yeah. And when somebody's just screaming at them incessantly, they're not discovering their inner voice. No.

Glennon Doyle
They're scared of yours. No, I mean, if you are screaming, it just needs to be positive. Like, good job. I see you. How about good idea or good hustle?

Those are the two I alternate because, or good afternoon, somebody's already. I don't say effort. That feels too sportsy for me, but I feel like someone's always hustling. So if you yell, good hustle could always be true. It could be to any team, could be to anybody.

It's just your general support of what is happening on the sports field. Good idea. I'm not even actually sure what that means, but I think it's a nice thing to yell. It means that you tried to do something that might not have worked out, but the idea itself was great. But then do you think that's not a thing we should yell at them?

Because then does that just show that whatever they tried didn't work? Depends on your kid, right? Emma does not like, good idea. Tish liked it because especially, too, based on the position in soccer, a lot of central midfielders will have to try new things, play balls into passing channels that are. Are tight, that get closed down, that get picked off.

Abby Wambach
And if you just say, oh, bad, no, that's not good because you're now training that player to not pass and try that ball again. So are you seeing their thinking? It's like when I was teaching, when I was teaching and somebody would do a long, long division pro, never was like, this is right or wrong. That's right. Because you don't always end up with the right thing.

Glennon Doyle
But if you're showing your work, and I can see that you get the process. Yeah. That you just mixed up a little number at the end. That's right. I can see your thinking that you are truly starting to understand division.

Abby Wambach
That's right. You should get almost all the points. That's how I felt as a teacher. That's right. And as Emma progresses throughout her life, I think that what she will understand is good idea is a real compliment.

Glennon Doyle
Yes. Because it means good soccer thinking. I can see you're developing. Yes. And it also means keep trying.

Yeah. Do that again. We would rather you keep trying that and not get a goal. Then stop trying to be safe. Yeah.

Abby Wambach
It's an exercise in failure. Yes.

Glennon Doyle
I say brava to both abbeys, you, and to this Abby pod squad. I had so much fun just doing this with you today. I miss sister, but I feel like it was great. I loved it. I actually feel like we don't go into the depth.

Abby Wambach
I mean, we have, but we haven't gone into the depths of our marriage. I know about some of this stuff, and it's helpful. It makes me feel like we are making progress, babe. And look, I do think we've got a long way to go with the jealousy piece and other things. However, I actually really appreciate talking about this stuff with you in this forum.

It might help if Sister were here. I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe Sister can listen to this and displace in facts and fact check us. I'm feelings checking us.

Glennon Doyle
There's always fact checking us. Pod squad, we love you. We want to hear your thoughts about jealousy. Actually, I think it's a fascinating topic. I could talk about it all day.

Abby Wambach
I did, too. If you all have thoughts after this, which I know you always do, call them in. If you can keep your voicemails less than a minute, just because it becomes impossible for us to use. And again, it's 747-200-5307 747-200-5307 I really, really love you. I really.

And I really, really trust you.

Glennon Doyle
It's like somebody handing you their very, very, very delicate, fragile china heart, and you're like, oh, God. But it's actually. It's like the. What's the japanese art? That when the vase breaks, they recreate it?

Yeah. It starts with the k. Yeah. And they put the gold in it. Yes.

Abby Wambach
The gold. Like, they connect the shards together to refill. Like, that's what my heart looks like. Well, I feel like we are each other's gold filling. We can't make it so it was never broken.

That's right. But we can just keep. Oh, my God. Our producers are Lauren and Allison. Right away.

Kintsugi. Kintsugi. Kintsugi is the art of japanese like repair of pottery. But the way they repair it is that they don't try to minimize the cracks like most repairing of things does. They accentuate the cracks with gold filling, which is counterintuitive because we think you're supposed to hide the cracks and things.

Glennon Doyle
This illuminates the cracks and things, making the cracks gold and shiny and the actual most beautiful part of the pot, meaning all of our trauma, when loved well, can actually become even more beautiful than had we never been broken. Yeah, you lit up my cracks with. Gold, which could be taken out of context in so many ways. And with that, we love you, Pod Squad. See you next time.

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to we can do hard things following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the we can do hard things show picture on Apple Podcasts, Spotify Odyssey or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

We appreciate you very much. We can do hard things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lagrasso, Alison Schott, Deena Kleiner, and Bill Schultz. I give you tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle. I walked through fire I came out the other side I chased desire I made sure I got what's mine.

And. I continue to believe that I'm the one for me and because I might I walk the line cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks are met a final destination we laugh we've stopped asking directions some places they've never been and to be loved we need to be known we'll finally find our way back home and through the joy and pain that our life spring we can do a hard thing I hit rock bottom. It felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem? Sometimes things fall apart?

Amanda Doyle
I continue to believe the best people are free? And it took some time but I'm finally fine?

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks are mad? Final destination?

We stopped asking directions to places they've never been? And to be loved we need to be known? We'll finally find our way back home and through the shore? Pain that our lives bring? We can do hard?

Adventurers and heartbreaks are map we might get lost but we okay with that? We stopped asking directions to places they've never been? And to be loved we need to be known? We'll finally find our way back home? And through the joy and pain that our lives bring?

We can do hard things, yeah? We can do hard things, yeah? We can hardly.

Jealousy: Glennon & Abby Share It All

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1: Introduction to the Topic

2: Deep Dive into Personal Stories

3: Listener Interactions

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