Community and Capital: Investing Insights with Ben Lang [Ep 34]

This episode focuses on Ben Lang's experiences in angel investing, highlighting his strategies, insights from the field, and his journey from making personal investments to managing a larger fund.

1. Investing early (pre-seed or seed) allows for significant influence and growth potential in startups.
2. The value of community engagement in generating investment opportunities and supporting founders.
3. Importance of founder qualities such as responsiveness, passion, and a clear commitment to their venture.
4. Strategic angel investing involves more than just providing capital; it requires active engagement and support.
5. Navigating investments requires a blend of personal insight and professional network advice to identify promising opportunities.

1. Introduction

Harry Campbell introduces the episode and guest Ben Lang, setting the stage for a discussion on angel investing. Harry Campbell: "We've got a fun one today with Ben Lang, who's got some great insights on investing."

2. Investing Strategy

Ben discusses his transition to using a larger fund for investments, focusing on early-stage startups. Ben Lang: "I mostly do 100k checks now, focusing on pre-seed and seed stages."

3. Importance of Community

The conversation highlights how community involvement has been crucial in Ben's investment strategy. Ben Lang: "A lot of my deal flow comes from community engagements and networks I've built."

4. Fund Management Insights

Ben shares insights into the management of his investment fund and how he handles the responsibilities and challenges of angel investing. Ben Lang: "Managing a fund adds a layer of responsibility towards the investors and the startups."

5. Closing Thoughts

The episode concludes with Ben giving advice to new investors and sharing his outlook on the future of investing. Ben Lang: "There's never a bad time to start investing if you're optimistic about the future."

1. Start Small: Begin with smaller investments to learn the ropes without significant risk.
2. Engage with Communities: Participate in or create networks to discover and support promising startups.
3. Focus on Founder Qualities: Invest in founders who are responsive, driven, and transparent.
4. Consider Pre-seed and Seed Investments: These stages offer the potential for significant impact and returns.
5. Stay Informed: Keep up with industry trends and insights to make informed investment decisions.

Thank you to Sydecar for sponsoring today’s episode! Read more about the SPV product that both Harry and Colin use for their investments below.

In this episode, Harry speaks with Ben Lang. Ben is a community builder and angel investor formerly serving as the Head of Community at Notion. With a passion for cultivating powerful networks, Ben has transitioned into angel investing, focusing on early-stage startups.

You might recognize Ben’s name as he recently went viral for sharing on Twitter the Notion template that he and his wife use to manage their relationship. I actually thought it was pretty cool..

Wannabe Angels, begin your venture capital career with Sydecar--the go-to platform for those new to managing SPVs and funds. Sydecar is on a mission to make private markets more accessible, transparent, and liquid by standardizing how investment vehicles are created and executed. Our intuitive software empowers you to launch SPVs and funds instantly, monitor funding in real-time, and offers hassle-free opportunities for early liquidity.

As you close your first deals and begin building your portfolio, Sydecar acts as your silent operating partner. We handle all back-office tasks in one centralized location, allowing you to focus on deal-making without the burden of managing subscription documents, tracking wires, or distributing K-1s.

Given the unpredictability of private markets, you need back-office support that's reliable. Sydecar's responsive and proactive customer support team is always at your service, ensuring you have the stability and assistance needed to successfully navigate the complexities of managing SPVs or starting your fund. To learn more, visit Sydecar's Wannabe Angels page: https://www.sydecar.io/wannabeangels

Ben's angel investing approach is centered around supporting startups that emphasize community engagement and technology-driven solutions. His portfolio includes diverse ventures, from innovative community platforms to tech tools enhancing user connectivity.

With a rich background in community management and strategic investments, Ben shares insights into effective community building strategies and the evaluation of startup potential. He also discusses the importance of founder personality in venture success and offers advice for aspiring angel investors.

People

Ben Lang, Harry Campbell

Companies

• Mentioned: Notion (Ben's previous association)

Books

• None mentioned

Guest Name(s):

Ben Lang

Content Warnings:

None

Harry Campbell
Colin, how are you doing today? I'm doing really well, Harry. Really well. You're dressed very professionally. You must be doing something important these days.

Colin Gardiner
I am. I've been invited to speak at a conference. I was just as surprised as you that they invited me. But you know, there's certain standards and dress codes you gotta, like, gotta do. When you go to these things.

Harry Campbell
Yeah, well, we must be making it to the big time, because that's a perfect segue because believe it or not, we've got our first sponsor for the podcast. How does that sound? I mean, I'm excited for them. It's obviously a company that we've both worked with and done a lot of things with in the past, so I'm excited. I'll let you break news on who it is.

Definitely. Well, we are now partnering with sidecar, so we've got a little blurb here that we're going to read, and then maybe you and I can chat about them because I think it's a cool one because it's such a good fit for our audience and what we talk about. And also, you and I both use the product, I would say quite frequently. I do every one of my investments with Sidecar, and I think you do quite a few syndicates too. So let read the blurb and then we could chat about it.

Sound good? I'm in. All right. Attention wannabe angels. Begin your venture capital career with Sidecar, the go to platform for those new to managing spvs and funds.

Sidecar is on a mission to make private markets more accessible, transparent, and liquid. By standardizing how investment vehicles are created and executed, our intuitive software empowers you to launch spvs and funds instantly monitor funding in real time, and it offers hassle free opportunities for early liquidity. That's always important. As you close your first deals and begin building your portfolio, Sidecar acts as your silent operating partner. We handle all back office tasks in one centralized location, allowing you to focus on deal making without the burden of managing subscription documents, tracking wires, or distributing k one s.

Given the unpredictability of private markets, you need back office support that's reliable. Sidecars responsive and proactive customer support team is always at your service, ensuring you have the stability and assistance needed to successfully navigate the complexities of managing spvs or starting your fund. To learn more, visit Sidecars wannabe Angels page. That's Sidecar IO forward slash wannabe Angels. And of course, if you don't want to type all that in, we will leave a link in the show notes and in our email newsletter.

How does that all sound? Colin sounds amazing and sounds kind of spot on to my experience besidecar. I talk a little bit about it and I want to hear yours experience too. But I think I looked really hard when I first got into doing syndications between platforms. There's Angelos Carta number of ones out there and I think the thing I kept coming back to is one I wanted control over it.

Colin Gardiner
I didn't necessarily want to broadcast it to everyone out there. And realistically, the cost was pretty exorbitant across the other platforms for what it was. And it just felt like there had to be a better way. And so the way I got introduced to sidecar is I was just asking around friends and a lawyer friend of mine was like, you should check out this company sidecar. And that was how I ended up finding them.

And here we are, I think ten spvs later and then also building my own fund on their platform as well. Yeah, well, I think we're sort of going to tease them in this episode, but we'll be chatting about them over the next couple months. Probably have a representative from the company on. So if there's any topics you want to learn about when it comes to spvs or funds or you're really kind of the ecosystem, we'll have some cool experts at our disposal over the next couple of months. And then, you know, obviously there's no better company to partner with than one that you actually use.

Harry Campbell
So really excited to work with the team at Sidecar and I think that you hit the nail on the head. I think for me, with my investment vehicle going forward, I'm syndicating every deal from my LP and my GP commit, and so I literally have to syndicate every investment that I make. And so sidecar was definitely, I think, the most affordable option I found. And I think what I just really liked about their product is that I feel like a lot of the SPV game is like if you're naval and talking about these products like you can raise millions of dollars. For most people, thats not the situation.

Its a grind, its hard work. And so I think seeing what they charge, for example, in the low thousands of dollars compared to the high end, if youre struggling to raise 25, 30, 40,000, which I think is the more realistic path, a lot of times when you do these syndicates, you got to start somewhere. I just feel like its more in line with the actual experience of syndicating a deal. Its tough. I dont think anyone were ever going to say its easy but it can be very rewarding and puts you on that right path, I think.

To me, it just seemed like they were a lot more in touch with the everyday man or woman's experience of raising an SPV. And I think their sort of product, customer service, everything reveals that. So excited to dig in over the next few episodes. Me too. It's going to be fun.

Awesome. Well, we're going to get into this week's episode right now. We've got a fun one. So I actually didn't want you involved in this episode, Colin, so I got you out of it. So it's going to be me and Ben.

Ben Lang. And this is super timely because he's now sort of mini famous on Twitter right now for this notion template that he shared. So I will, will own up to it though. We booked him before he went viral, so I don't know if he would have said yes after he went viral, but got a great episode and a great guest coming. You ready?

Colin Gardiner
I'm excited. And I think our users are going to benefit from the marriage advice they get from his mission template if they go find it on Twitter. Awesome. We'll hit them up real quick for a bonus question and see if we can get that going. So big thanks to sidecar for partnering with us on this episode and the next few.

Harry Campbell
And without further ado, let's get going. The last investment I made was from a cold email. The person who put in the first check was someone I had known for a long time and done some deals with in the past, so wasn't like totally out of the blue, but, you know, we had some conversations and chatted on WhatsApp a bunch and I just came up really impressed with this founder. You know, he was a repeat founder, had done an incredible job before, was super responsive, was just like clearly very, very hungry and like, you know, this is a cold email, so those kinds of things do happen.

So Ben Lang has spent his life hopping between New York, Tel Aviv and San Francisco. He's a builder, former founder and community guy, always in multiple places at one time. Ben was an early member of the notion team where he led community for nearly five years. He actively makes angel investments and advises a few select startups. And today we have the pleasure of having him join the wannabe angel podcast.

So, Ben, how are you doing today? Great to be here. Thanks for having me. I haven't updated that bio in quite a while, so it's funny hearing that. No worries.

I actually, you know, I think we queued this episode up a while ago and I was just thinking, I was like, did he send me this or did I pull this? I can't remember, but I'm gonna look at his face while I read it off and sort of see what he says, how he feels. And I think it is, you know, it sounds like it's pretty much on point. Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Awesome. Well, we're gonna dig into the details of, you know, kind of what you've been up to and what you've got going on. And I think the impetus for this was I saw on LinkedIn that you had mentioned you wired your first angel investment of 2024. You're traveling a bit, as your bio kind of implied, but luckily we able to got you on and, you know, I think it was like a quick post you did, but you just seem to have like a good excitement and enthusiasm for investing and sort of what you're seeing. And so that was really kind of the, you know, reason why I wanted to have you on.

So excited to dig in. Yeah, totally. Awesome. Well, I love to give our audience a quick insight into your history with investing and sort of how you got started. So I've got some rapid fire questions and then we'll get into the show.

Sound good? Yeah. All right, so how many angel investments have you made to date? I think probably between 50 and 60. Nice.

How many angel investments have you made this year, or do you plan to make this year? This year? I think maybe two or three so far and hoping to make probably ten to 15. Cool. All right, so you got some work to do.

What's your average check size? I mostly do 100k checks now. I raised a bit of money, so I have a vehicle that I invest out of now. I used to do ten k checks before that when I was investing personally, but now I'm trying to kind of stick with these larger checks. Cool.

Well, we'll definitely ask about that. And what type of startups do you look for and at what stage? So I'm trying to do pre seed and seed, but really leaning in more like as early as possible, as much pre seed as I can, trying to get into the first round of funding as much as possible. I do seed as well slightly later and very, very people driven. Yeah.

So, yeah, let's dive in there. On the community side, you mentioned in your bio a lot about community. Explain what is community for maybe someone who doesn't know or what's your definition of community? Yeah, I think for me community is just bringing together people around shared interests and values and so I've done that at notion. I've done that with other companies before as well.

Ben Lang
It's kind of broad, so it ties into a whole bunch of things on the marketing side, but I also pretty actively do a bunch of things in the community world personally, and those kind of are all very helpful on the angel investing front. So that's really where a lot of my deal flow comes from. Very cool. What's a good real life or tangible example of something that you're working on or have worked on in the community space? Yeah, so I think right now something I'm spending a bunch of time on is this thing called next play.

So it's nextplay. So I've been hosting these dinners and gatherings for quite a few years now for people who are exploring what's next. So people who are openly or secretly thinking about starting something, joining something, they're confused types of people that come to these are like repeat founders who sold their last companies and like want to start something that have no idea what. Or engineers who want to leave or they work at some hot startup or large company and they want to leave and start something and they, you know, or they want to join something and I'm not sure what. And kind of people are just like exploring and thinking about what comes next.

It's a really hard phase and also not so easy to talk about because you can't really be open. And so we try to create an environment for people to be open about it. We'll do smaller ones with ten people, we'll do some larger ones with 2025 people. And through that I've just been able to meet really incredible people who are starting things, joining things. It's great because I get to meet future founders.

I get to meet people who want to join companies that I've invested in. To me, that's a great example of community just bringing together around shared interests and shared values. Yeah. So it's definitely a super cool and unique idea. Do you sort of feel like, what do you think kind of gives you your edge here?

Harry Campbell
Is it because it's tough to organize? It's a lot easier to do like a webinar or Zoom that 14 people show up to and kind of doing in person. You got to get commitment and what do you think kind of makes these events? You do stand out and it seems like you're having good success. And I'm on the website now, we'll leave a link in the show notes.

I don't know if people can get involved or if it's invite only, but maybe you can dive in the details there. Yeah, so people apply and we try to be really thoughtful about curating and keeping the bar really high. So not everyone who applies, we invite. And I think that's just how we kind of create a valuable and helpful environment for the people that come. So really the work that I'm doing is just the curation, making sure we're bringing the right people.

Ben Lang
And now what I'm really excited about is, so I've been hosting these in a couple cities myself now, but I've, I've found a few hosts in different cities who are going to be organizing these events with the same brand, same playbook, same database of people. And that way I don't have to travel everywhere. I think it's a lot more scalable. So now we're working on getting these going in London and Austin and Boston. Very cool.

In Miami and a couple other places. I'm pretty excited about that. Do you see this as a business for you or is it more of a legion and flow for your angel investments? Yeah, it's definitely not a business. There's no money coming into it.

The actual gatherings are, they're always sponsored by a VC who, you know, and that VC will end up joining. So we've partnered with a bunch of really great VC's to make it happen over the years. For me, I mean, I try not to look at it as like a lead magnet. I honestly just really enjoy doing it. I think it's something that's really valuable for people and I get a lot of, you know, I just get a lot out of it personally and, you know, met great friends through it over the years and I mean, I definitely have made some investments through it as well.

But it's not the, you know, it's not the only reason I'm doing it, for sure. No, I think that's fair. It's sometimes a little callous to say that, you know, I'm putting these dinners together for lead Gen, right. Maybe that's not the best, you know, marketing term, right? I'm sure you could phrase it better, but I think the best kind of endeavors in life hit on a few different areas.

Harry Campbell
You know, like your passion for community, your passion for investing. And obviously we all need to live and make money and, you know, pay the bills, right? So that, you know, may not be anywhere near 100% of the reason, but if you can kind of squirrel that in, you know, like, to me, I guess, like the best things in life, it's like, you know, are part of my business and it's something I love and I'm helping people. Right. If I can kind of tap all those three, it's kind of a cool thing.

And it seems like events and gatherings are kind of in right now. What do you, what do you think about that in 2024? Yeah, I think. Well, I think there, there was a lack of it during COVID and I think people are definitely craving being. Being together in person, being online, being on Zoom is just not the same.

Ben Lang
I think people realize that people got very burnt out from events. I can't recall last time I went to an online event. It's just not enjoyable for me personally. And so I understand why there's kind of a desire for more in person. For sure.

Harry Campbell
Are there other people that you consistently work with or respect or look up to either kind of in this events and small gathering space or just kind of community at large? Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, they definitely are. I would say someone we worked with that notion who was really incredible was a woman named Erica Kuhl who had started and run Salesforces community for 15 years, and trailblazers and their annual conference in San Francisco. And she just very, very inspiring.

Ben Lang
And I learned a lot from her. There's definitely others, but she is like, definitely. She's top of mind when I think about this. Very cool. Yeah.

Harry Campbell
You know, I think you and I are both active on Twitter, and I feel like on a smaller scale, there's a lot of these folks, you know, that are hosting little curated omakase dinners for founders and others, throwing big events and parties. I just played golf with a buddy here in LA, Morgan Barrett. He runs tech breakfast club. So there's kind of these cool little angles and edges. So, yeah, we may be.

Maybe you'll get a few people, like myself included, hitting you up to talk about these satellite events, because this sounds pretty cool. Yeah, totally. I love, I mean, I'm all for folks kind of finding their niche and just bringing people together. I think it's really great. Very cool.

Well, let's pivot a little bit to your investments and fund because I will say I mentioned you off air when I was reading the questions we send you ahead of time. I was like, whoa, 100k checks. Man, this guy must be rich. And so it's funny that you mentioned your fund. So talk a little bit about that initial angel investing journey and then sort of maybe we can get into the details and mechanics of your fund, your investment vehicle.

Ben Lang
Yeah. Yeah. So I started probably, I think, five and a half years ago, maybe six years ago. And the way I started was actually, I met a founder who was a pretty active angel investor, and he was pretty busy running his company, but wanted to be angel investing more and kind of had the capacity to be the resources to be investing more. So he had worked with someone for a year who was helping him with sourcing and just, like, outbound and kind of keeping track of things and getting deals through the door just because he was so busy.

And that person ended up leaving. And so we just kind of spent some time together, and at some point just decided that I would kind of continue doing that. And so I spent probably a year and a half, maybe two years doing that with him, and we maybe did 20 or so deals together throughout that time. And all of his capital was really great because I just got to learn a lot, just the ins and outs of what this world looked like. I didn't have to risk my money, which was really helpful at that time.

I got to see his thinking process behind making investments. And also, he was also well known in industry, and so he had a lot of access, and so it was helpful to just get a foot in the door that way. Jeff. Well, you know what's interesting? I don't think I've ever heard of someone kind of getting their foot in the door that way.

Harry Campbell
But I feel like it might be one of the best ideas I've heard. You know, people are like, oh, you know, invest in a bunch of syndicates or, you know, make some small, and, you know, and it's like, oh, that's a lot. You know, you're spending your own money. And so it sounds like you found a founder. I don't know if you can share who it was, but, you know, you found a founder who sort of was well respected in the industry.

So I'm guessing a lot of people were coming to them with sort of the best and early deals. Cause they were an industry expert and someone you want on the cap table. And then I'm sure they had some good exit or secondary or something where they had real capital to sort of go and invest, and maybe they could even help a little, but just didn't have the time because they're busy running the day to day of the company. So it sort of feels like if I'm someone looking to get in, like, I want to find, you know, that's like a good little formula to look for someone like that. Yeah.

Ben Lang
Yeah, exactly. I actually, when people ask me how to break into angel investing, I always tell them this is the best way to do it. I think it's just, it's a win win. It helps. I mean, it's incredible for you like to break in.

It's, it's can also be incredible for the founder, operator, whoever it is who has this time crunch. So I would certainly recommend folks try that for sure. How were you compensated for this? Was it kind of cash or was it a little bit of carry or a mix of two? Yeah, I got a little bit of carry in the deals that we did together.

So I still had a full time job when I was doing that. And this was more of a, for me, it was more of like what I would consider like an apprenticeship where I was more so just optimizing for learning. And I think in the long run, I benefited a lot from doing this. I probably wouldnt be angel investing at. All today if I hadnt done this, Clay, definitely.

Harry Campbell
Well, I settled on a very similar structure for my fund where we do 25k angel checks. And I actually just hired sort of what Im calling an associate or intern. Hes in college and very similar profile. Hes got 510, 15 hours a week to do this stuff on the side. I definitely like that.

Im similar. I might not be as legit as this founder you worked for, but ive got a lot of stuff going on. Its fun to have a little help in that situation. About the, I think you referred to it as an investment vehicle. So what are you doing now when it comes to your investments?

Ben Lang
Yeah, so for a while after I stopped working with this founder, I spent time just doing my own angel investing. I was doing 1015k checks, pretty small, and I did that for a while. And at a certain point, well, I realized I wanted to kind of take it to the next level. And also, you know, at a certain point, I was pretty active and just realized it wasn't feasible to do this forever. So do you mean you're running out of money or.

Well, yeah, yeah. Meaning like, liquidity wise, it wasn't, it wasn't the smartest thing. Well, because I will say, you know, I think that's one thing we've seen over and over. I was similar. I was doing ten to 15 and sometimes more, you know, 25K LP type checks.

Harry Campbell
And it doesn't seem like a lot. I mean, it is a lot, but it doesn't seem like a lot. But, you know, you're doing five to ten a year and then, you know, seven to twelve years of no returns and it can add up, right? Yeah, totally. Yeah, it definitely adds up.

Ben Lang
So, yeah, so, you know, at some point I decided to just, you know, raise some, some outside money. I set up, I set up a fund on angellist and brought together some, some LP's, some, some founders, investors that I was friends with. And I don't really have a name for it. I've never actually shared it, so I, you know, I, at some point I will, but until now, I haven't really shared it anywhere and I just, you know, I don't even know if I'm going to come up with a name for it or not. I always kind of like the idea of just investing you as a person.

I think people really like the idea of having a person with them versus some fund name. So that's why I've never really put so much effort into coming up with a name and going down that path that I feel like a lot of investors. Yeah, it just always felt very unnecessary to me. I like that. I was in a similar situation.

Harry Campbell
I've got a 500K fund and one LP, so it's not a real fund and technically it's just a side letter. And I think I sort of, in my Google Doc, I just named it, oh, this my RSG fund. Here's how I'm investing, but because after my business, but I kind of like that as investing as a person, I feel like that's because that's really what they're getting in this situation. And I don't know, do you kind of consider this like a real fund or do you sort of think of it as like, hey, I'm investing, sort of doing what I was doing, but just with other people's money now, like, how do you kind of, you know, if you had to define it, what would you, how would you define it? Yeah, I mean, I do feel like I'm still doing what I was doing before, just larger check sizes.

Ben Lang
I am obviously responsible for other folks money and I know at the end of the day, there's a lot of risk with angel investing and it's impossible to guarantee good returns. But obviously I feel a sense of responsibility and want to make sure I do the best possible and keep in touch with the folks that gave me money and share updates. I think that's all really important. Yeah. Well, I guess one thing I've been thinking about lately is for folks that are in this phase where on one end of the spectrum, maybe if you go and raise some vehicle, let's say you have one LP, 500K or a million bucks, and they're just like, they know you, they love you, they trust you, they give you the money and let you do your thing.

Harry Campbell
That might be a best case sort of, like, high ROI scenario. So not a ton of updates. Or if you do update, you grab coffee or have a phone call periodically with them. And then as you go down the spectrum, right on the other end of the spectrum is the whole song and dance you have to do when you're raising a fund. Like, oh, look at our returns and look how awesome.

You know what I mean? And hyping up and kind of doing, like, I was just at an LP day, right? And kind of that, and I'm, like, sitting to myself, like, okay, you know, I don't know. It's a lot of song and dance, I guess you would say. I don't know.

Where do you think you are on that spectrum and where do you think is, like, kind of maybe the optimal point? Like, I don't know. I'm kind of leaning more, like, towards the high roi. Find one or two or three really good lp's who really know you and trust you if you can. Yeah, I mean, there's a balance of how much money do you need to raise and do you need to go out and find more lp's, and if you have the ability to just kind of have less folks and keep in touch with them more consistently in more efficient ways, I think that's great.

Ben Lang
Everyone has kind of, like, a different setup. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess I'm curious to get your point of view on that because, like, I think people usually either angel invest or kind of raise a fund. Right.

Harry Campbell
And there aren't a lot of people, like, in between. I don't know if you think of yourself as being in between, but I'm curious, like, maybe that in between is, like, a good spot to be. You know, usually if no one's doing anything, it's either a really good idea or a bad idea, and I'm not sure yet, so I'm trying to figure that out and using your help. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Lang
I think I would consider myself, like, in between because, well, I don't even really have, like, a. You know, I don't have a name for the fund. Right. I just call it my name. Yeah.

Harry Campbell
But it is technically a fun. Because it's on angel list and. Right, right. Technically just because there's no other real way to set it up or no easy way to set it up outside of that. So.

Ben Lang
Yeah, I mean, you know, I guess, you know, my hope is, like, in that I'm just kind of optimizing as much as possible to make great investments and doing what I can to do the best possible investments. I think that's the most important thing at the end of the day, whether or not I go out and raise more money later on, that I have no idea. Yeah, makes sense. Makes sense. Well, for the final part of the show, I want to dig in and find out what you're actually excited about and investing in going forward.

Harry Campbell
Are there any themes? You know, we're here sort of still at the beginning of 2024 ish, you know, what are you sort of, like, most excited about? Like, theme wise, company wise, space wise? Like, you know, one or two things that, like, get you. Get you up every day.

Ben Lang
Yeah, I mean, I think everyone's saying it, but, you know, AI, of course, is AI isn't every bitch. So. Yeah, I think right now, yeah. So I don't even know if it's, like, fair to say that because it's really just every pitch out there. I'm less, like, thematic and more people driven.

I get much more excited about meeting incredible founders and people who I really just want to back. And that's kind of really what I look for. I also kind of, I do, like, exploring, like, products, things that I'm using myself, spaces, like, you know, areas that I'm kind of looking for better products, you know, some, like, the productivity that tools I've invested in the past maybe, like, you know, have kind of come from that. But I'm not really out there thinking about, like, you know, by vertical or space too much. I just don't think for, like, for pre seed.

I just don't think it's so, so helpful because you don't really. You could invest in some pre seed company that just changes, like, their domain and everything within a year. So it's much more about, like, the founders. Are they, you know, are they going to figure this out? And does it seem, they seem like people are going to want to work on something, you know, for the next ten years and obsessed about it?

Harry Campbell
Yeah. Well, so let's start with founders, because I think we hear that refrain over and over, find the best people, the best founders. They're so dog. They're so passionate. Right.

And all that. I guess to me, it's kind of easy when you get a founder, a pitch. You know them, you've worked with them forever. You've seen them in action. You've seen them start a company.

They come to you like, I got you early. It's like, okay, that's pretty easy. Yes, a lot of the time. Right. If you have that, like, special insight, what about for the people who maybe aren't in your network?

Right. Like, what do you think? Like, have you invested in many people who maybe someone else is here telling you, like, oh, my God, these founders are great, or how do you think about, how do you kind of determine if you don't know them that well? Yeah, I definitely will lean on input from other investors or people that I trust, maybe folks that I've known for a while. I find that to be pretty helpful.

Ben Lang
But also, I think sometimes even the last investment I made was from a cold email. The person who put in the first check was someone I had known for a long time and done some deals with in the past. So it wasn't totally out of the blue, but we had some conversations and chatted on WhatsApp a bunch, and I just came out really impressed with this founder. He was a repeat founder, had done an incredible job before, was super responsive, was just clearly very hungry. And this is a cold email.

So those kinds of things do happen. Of course, it is a lot easier when it is a founder that you've known for ten years and you've seen what they can do. But I try not to limit myself just to that. Yeah, well, I like that. I think one of the things that I sort of look for, I think of it as, like, if I get someone cold pitch or cold email or get intro to a founder, I kind of look for multiple data points, right?

Harry Campbell
Like, hey, okay, I meet them, I take the call, I ping them on a Monday, on a holiday, see if they reply. You know what I mean? Like, I see if they're sending updates, or I kind of want to, like, gather a little data over, like, one, two, three months so I can sort of, like, get to know them. You know, even if they say they're going to do something, do they follow through? And even if not, that's totally okay.

Do they have, like, a good excuse why they didn't follow through? What do you think about, like, I mean, obviously if you have the time to do that, it's great. But, like, how do you kind of get to know founders quickly?

Ben Lang
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think, you know, I try to, I try to just have kind of an ongoing conversation. So I find, like, texting to be pretty helpful. I like the WhatsApp texting idea. Yeah, yeah.

I think, like, you know, just having, like, a random Zoom conversation can be a little. A little tough to get an idea of, like, who they are, are so, you know, just, like, talking a bunch, you know, not making a decision within, like, a day or two, you know, and really maybe spending, like, some time getting to know them a bit better. I, you know, at the end of the day, like, there's, there's a limit to what you're able to do. I think kind of pairing that with, like, maybe mutual friends, like, doing some references. That company I spoke, like I mentioned before, like, I did reach out about the founder to a few other people who knew, who knew this person and asked them, like, hey, do you know this person?

Did you, did you, like, what do you think of them? And getting some references can also be really helpful. So just doing the most you can, I think on that front, it can be pretty helpful to get a good picture. Yeah, no, I like that. So you also mentioned exploring products and things that you use yourself.

Harry Campbell
So I just invested in a golf startup. I'm a big golfer, so I definitely, I'm guilty of that one. In a good or bad way. Do you think it's a good idea, bad idea? I mean, obviously you're doing it, so I don't think you think it's a bad idea, but do you think it's, like, optimizes for best returns or, you know, why?

Do you kind of, like, invest in stuff that you like or use? Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's a great idea. I think, look, I think if it's something that, if it's an area that you're passionate about or that you know really well, like, you'll just have, you know, more insights than maybe other markets or other areas. You know, obviously you want to, like, give it fair judgment and not, like, have it, have it, have it clouded by your own personal feelings. But I think I've made some pretty solid investments through that, and I definitely do recommend folks start with that versus just some random vertical that you just know nothing about, I think that's actually a lot harder to get an understanding of what is going on here.

Ben Lang
What should I be investing in? Yeah. Very cool. Do you think now is a good time to angel invest? I think now is a great time.

I think 2021 was a lot harder because there was just 2022. There was just so much competition, deals closed so fast. Valuations were crazy. Now there's less of that, more reasonable timeframes. I think it's a really good time to get, to get started with angel investing.

Harry Campbell
Yeah, I guess if you think about, especially if youre on the earlier, the fresher side, the things that we just talked about, getting to know a founder a little bit, coming in, you probably have a smaller check. So obviously if theyre raising a ton of money, they care less about the small checks. So it does seem like in that context now is a good time to start because theres good opportunity for that typical profile of a new angel investor. Yeah, totally. And also, like, technology is not stopping, it's only accelerating.

Ben Lang
And there's just like, I guess that's there's no time. Yeah. Is there ever a bad time to angel invest, though? Exactly. Yeah.

I think if you're like, as long as you're like an optimistic person, bullish in the future, then, you know, then it's never, it's never a bad time. And I think there's good reason to be optimistic because, like technology is always changing and there's always going to be like, you know, no one's going to like, there's never going to be like a standstill moment. So it's, it's always a good time to be investing in technology. Clay. Yeah.

Harry Campbell
The other thing I noticed in your bio, you said that you do a little advising. How do you kind of balance the advising versus investing? Is there a crossover there or how do you handle the two lanes? I assume you mean advising for equity. They'll give you options or shares if they're early or obviously investing, you're giving them cash.

How do you sort of look at the two? Yeah, I've done a few of those. The advising, for me, it has just meant more like hands on work. And sometimes it can be a mix of putting in money as an investment as well as getting more equity and some sort of advisory shares.

Ben Lang
As an investor, I also try to be as hands on and helpful as possible. Obviously, as an angel, I'm not the most active as much as maybe a full time VC would be who is putting in much larger checks. I think advisory opportunities are just a good way to get more hands on and be on the ground, working on stuff in notion docs and meetings and building together a bit more. And I think it's fun just because I really enjoy that and I like being on the ground as well. What do you think an angel investor should offer?

Harry Campbell
If they're on the phone with a founder, and obviously the founder is pitching you because you're giving them money, but sometimes you need to pitch them. Is there anything this is too much to offer or you should just be, here's my check and I'll try to be helpful. What do you think a typical angel investor or should offer to a founder? Yeah, I mean, I think it really depends on, like, your background and kind of what, you know, what you kind of have on your plate. I do think, you know, founders do appreciate kind of something beyond just like the capital.

Ben Lang
So if it's, you know, if it's an audience, if it's customer introductions, if it's hiring opportunities, I think those are all great. I mean, honestly, what I always do is I just kind of keep an eye out for, like, any investor updates of great companies will send out monthly investor updates, and they'll have a section in there with their asks. And even if you can't help out with any of them, just responding and saying, hey, this is great. Keep up the great work. I think founders really appreciate that, just being there and showing that you're reading their updates.

And if you can occasionally help out with something, that's great. If not, it's fine. Very cool. I think that's one of the things that I delineate. I'm an advisor for 20, maybe 20 companies more for equity and then invest in a bunch of others.

Harry Campbell
And I think one of the things I delineate is on the investment side, I'm not promising anything. It's like, I'm going to try and help. I'm going to be involved. I'm going to be there. But on the advisor side, it's like, no, here are the things I'm going to do.

You know what I mean? Here are the areas where I can help. But obviously it is a little tricky because it goes from advisor, you're getting options or shares to investing, you're giving them money to do a little bit of the same thing. It's always an interesting interplay. Yeah, yeah, I think, I mean, that.

Ben Lang
That breakdown makes a lot of sense. Very cool. Well, Ben, I really enjoyed chatting with you and hearing about everything that you're up to. Is there any final words that you want to leave with our audience? Anything we didn't get to opine on or you want to just tell them where they can follow you and find all your work?

Yeah, I mean, I'm on Twitter on LinkedIn. Just search my name. Ben Lang. I'm trying to build out my newsletter, so feel free to. Feel free to join my newsletter.

Harry Campbell
I think I just accepted an invite to that on LinkedIn, so I'm in. Great. Great. So Twitter, thanks for having me on. Yeah, definitely.

And then we'll also mention the nextplay, so. And I guess if there's any founders out there. It sounds like you might have taken a cold email or two in the past. What's the best way for them to get ahold of you? Yeah, I mean, finding my email or dming me on Twitter or LinkedIn.

Ben Lang
Like, totally happy to do that. All right, we'll leave it at the first challenge right there for anyone listening. Exactly. Not hard to find. Sounds good, Ben.

Harry Campbell
Appreciate it. Take care. Thank you.

Ben Lang
Thank you.