E513 Louis Theroux

Theo Von
Some new tour dates to tell you about. Long Beach, California. July 10. Los Angeles. July 11.

Bethel, New York. July 31. Albany, New York on August 1. Las Vegas, Nevada. July 5 and 6th.

Bangor, Maine. August 9. Bend, Oregon. Spokane, Portland, Maine, and Oregon. A lot of places.

Go check them out@theovon.com. tour and thank you to anybody that's come out in support and seen the show and just can't even believe it. And I'll see you guys there. Baby. Praise God, baby.

Gang. Today's guest is a documentarian, a journalist, an instigator of sorts. He has a new documentary that's trending right now on Netflix called tell them you love me. It's really fascinating if you haven't seen it. He's always splashing in the dark pools of society, and we're grateful for all his contributions over the years that have kept us entertained and intrigued and informed as well.

Today's guest here from the United Kingdom is Mister Louis Theroux.

I'll sit and tell you my story shine on me and I will find a song I've been singing.

Louis Theroux
I like your voice, man. I like your voice. You do? Yeah. Oh, thanks, man.

I'd like to speak like that. Well, I think. Well, it's interesting coming to London, because you see where it started at. Coming to London is very much like going and looking at the roots of America. Yeah.

And the english language. And you probably know this, but they say Shakespeare, if he were alive today, would speak like, kind of like an appellation. He'd be a. I feel like he'd probably be a rapper or something now. He'd probably be a rapper.

He'd talk kind of like this. Yeah, he'd be like wetter hose. Because words like got, we say got, you say gotten in America. Or fall, we say autumn. Those are, you know.

And Shakespeare, he talked kind of like. It's a lot of fun talking to you, Theo Vaughn. Cause I'm kind of a stand up comedian, too. Oh, so he and I make plays. Yeah.

But there is different characters on stage talking and stuff. Are you serious, William? That sounds really. I love words. Yeah.

Weird talking to you. Like, it feels a little offensive. Like, I'm. No, I don't think so. Well, I.

You can hear everything that's wrong with what I'm doing, but to me, it sounded perfect. Well, it's funny. Cause people will, like, joke about a white accent. That's kind of country. But they don't.

Theo Von
Like. They don't. But if you do it about a black accent, it seems like, it gets offensive, you know? Yeah, but I don't. This is.

Louis Theroux
Okay, this doesn't. I don't use terms like, obviously, I don't use racial slurs, but I don't say white trash, for example. And that sounds like maybe prissy, but I wouldn't use the term hillbilly. Does that make sense? Yeah, I think it's true.

I don't feel like I. Maybe. Cause I came from a position of something, like a little bit of privilege in life, and it feels like you're looking down on people. Yeah, well, I think it's like, in the past eight years, I would say, in the US, they made it so the only people they would make fun of anymore were kind of like poor white people or just white people kind of. So they kind of stuck themselves in this place.

Yes. I think it's one of the reasons why podcasting has had a rise over the years, because it still kept us just freedom of, like, well, I'm not. I'll just. We'll talk about whatever we feel like. We'll try to just be our normal.

Selves and actually be loose and free. I used to, in the nineties, I worked with. Do you know who Michael Moore is? The documentary make it so he was my mentor of a sort. Like, he gave me my first job on tv.

I worked for a show called TV Nation in the mid nineties. It was on NBC, and then it was on Fox. But it felt like, because it was a very. It was a left wing, kind of politically engaged, but it felt like the one thing we were okay as we. As a collective on the show, with making fun.

With making fun of was kind of white southerners. Yeah. So it was like, oh, well, we're gonna channel all that into just making fun of Billy Joel and Billy Bob. Yeah. And always.

I always slightly felt like maybe this isn't okay. You know what I mean? Like the lost acceptable taboo. Right? Making fun of the dumb crackers.

Theo Von
Yeah, dude, these damn dumb. They don't know shit. They're dumb as a stump. They're drinking gasoline. Yeah.

Right. They're making little. Doing donuts and driving around thinking that's fun. They're doing donuts in their sister's vagina. That's the scariest place to do one.

But during, for some reason, there was, like, something in the past, like eight years when it hit that, that it. People started to kind of get fed up with it in a way, or they just wanted equality. They just want. It will make fun of everybody. Like, don't just, you know, and I think some of that came with, like, the Trump stuff.

People thought that all Trump supporters were just, like, complete hill, you know, hillbillies, ignoramus. And I think you see that a little bit in some of the stuff Sacha Baron Cohen did. Yeah. You ever watch, like, Borat and Bruno and it felt like. Felt mean to me.

It felt a bit mean sometimes. Yeah. When he was making fun of that, he takes. You remember this one? It's weird because sometimes you feel.

Louis Theroux
It's funny. I feel. I don't. You know, I don't want to be dumb because he's funny. And it felt a little bit like he was beating up on country folk.

Theo Von
Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think as long as everybody's getting beaten up on, it seems good. And that's, I think, where I feel like things are kind of hedging back that way because there's nowhere else for them to go right now, man.

London is marvelous, bro. Oh, you're welcome. I didn't know. I didn't think. I really.

I was always kind of against the British. Like, come on, really? Yeah. We're Polish. My father's from Nicaragua, but his father was from Poland, so my parents.

My father, my grandfather met his wife in Nicaragua doing missionary work a long time ago. So you're kind of Latin? I'm polish. Nicaraguan. That's kind of how I feel the most, I guess, because my father was very, like, you know, he would just talk in Spanish and drink small coffees and, you know, and probably think about, you know, dancing with women that weren't.

Louis Theroux
My mother during the Lambarda. Yes, the forbidden dance. But you were growing up in Covington, and it must have been like you were quite exotic in those terms. Cause that's a fairly, like, that's mainly white and a few black people. Right.

To be nicaraguan. Wouldn't that count for being a bit like. Well, yeah, it even starts with ni, you know. So immediately you were getting kind of lumped in with the brothers, but you. Can pass, like, you look pretty white to me.

Theo Von
Yeah. I feel weird saying that. Just saying that felt uncomfortable. Like I was sounding like David Duke or something. No, I used to share a back fence with David Duke.

Louis Theroux
Did you? Yeah, when he. His girlfriend, he dated the hottest chick that worked at our seafood restaurant. Duke did. They said that was his people in the, you know, who were part of the white nationalist movement, said that was his.

Other than his racism and being a Nazi, like, his other big failing was that he had an eye for the ladies. He was always having trouble shagging the wrong person's. Oh, yeah, I could see that. I thought you're gonna say he had a problem with seafood, but. Yeah, because there's a lot of.

Theo Von
Yeah. And he may be suffering from gout, you know. Yeah, he's pretty old now. It could be just racism built up in his joints, but as a neighbor, nice guy. That's awesome.

For real. Pretty, pretty. Yeah. Like, we didn't see much. You know, we go to the gym sometimes, and sometimes he and I would lift weights.

But seriously. Yeah, but he's quite a bit older. Yeah, yeah, he was older. This was probably 20 years ago. At that point.

He was, you know, just kind of a. Still a healthy guy at the gym, but he wasn't yelling. Racist things are wearing, like, a racist shirt or anything. He. No, his thing was he left the Klan to found the na WP.

Oh, yeah. You remember that? Uh uh. I mean, it might be before your time. National association for the Advancement of white people.

White people. Yeah. His thing was like, you know, black people can do it. Why can't I? It's just the same thing.

Louis Theroux
Civil rights. Yeah, civil rights from my people. Yeah. Was the accent all right? What are you hearing when I'm doing that?

Theo Von
Yeah, I'm hearing just like you just kind of, like, having, like, a country accent. Kind of. What do you do? An English one? All right, good day, friends.

Louis Theroux
Keep going. All right. Oh, nice to see you today, miss. Say. I grew up in Louisiana.

Cause it's hard when you're mixing. See, I grew up in Covington, Louisiana, and most of my. I met just say. Just talk about that. Well, I grew up in Covington, Louisiana, sir.

Theo Von
And I was just a wee fella there with my mom and me. Grandmom. Not too bad. And she died. She had typhoid or she had a black long something.

I don't know. I don't know how british to get, you know? So we ate a lot of, like, war meals. A lot of the food here tastes like a lot of war meals. I feel like.

Louis Theroux
Yes. Which war? Like the second World War. I'm not sure. I'll have to open up.

Do you mean, like, check a reference? So, like, it would be delicious if you were in a war. Yeah. Like, it feels like somebody, like, hurried you into a tent to eat. And this is what the chef had, the cook had.

You know, like, I'm half american. My dad's from Boston. Boston, Massachusetts. And so I feel a very divided loyalty, like, and I. But at the same time, because I grew up mainly in south London, I would come to America to visit my relations.

Many of them lived around Boston or on Cape Cod. We'd holiday on Cape Cod. You know that. Very nice. Yeah.

How are you? That's how they would. How are you? Yeah. That's a different american accent.

Yeah, yeah, it's wicked. And so your american fan base is going to be like, what the fuck is he doing? But my point was that when they would have stereotypes about british people or english people, I would feel slightly offended, because if you grow up in it, you don't notice, like, oh, the food's awful. Or the idea that english people will have bad teeth. And I was like, no, we don't.

But actually, we kind of certainly did then. They're a little better now. But, yeah, I'm interested in what you see from the outside. So the food's not so good. The food is not good.

Theo Von
The food doesn't strike me. This is one thing I noticed. The women, the ladies, they seem to be neatera women. They seem to have more ambiance about them, I think. And this is no disrespect to America or anything, America seems like a lot more kind of social media obsessed and like kind of fake tit kind of obsessed.

Whereas I feel like here, some of the women just seem to have their own. More their own world to them. Do you have a girlfriend? I don't have a girlfriend. So you.

Louis Theroux
You're out here, you know, down for whatever. I'm not just, um, you know, just smashing any, you know, traipser or whatever people call you or whatever. Somebody. What was the term? Traipser?

Theo Von
Somebody traipsing her by or whatever. Okay. Yeah. I'm not out here, like, touching people or anything. He said molesting.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm not. Yeah, I mean, I'm doing everything legal. Legal work here. Yeah, of course.

Yeah. But you're out here thinking like, I'm a free. I'm gonna meet a woman. I could meet a wife. You could meet your future wife.

Yeah, I think I'm in the service. I'm more to the place now where. Yeah, I would like to meet a wife, you know, so. But I just think that. Have you been out going out to clubs and bars?

No, no, I don't go to clubs. We went last. Jimmy Carr took us out the other night to the Chiltern. Chiltern firehouse. Chiltern firehouse.

Louis Theroux
It's high rolling. It was fancy. That's fancy. The drinks are. They're expensive, but they're very delicious.

Theo Von
Oh, and the lamps even had. They didn't have, like, the little clicker on the back, on the cord, they had the actual. Right where you pull the. Yeah. You know, like a little string.

Like a bona fide lamp. Yeah, like that time, like, it was. Like, did I count for a lot? Like a string? Some.

Louis Theroux
That seems like a low bar for both. Like formality. I think the lamps had strings on them. Well, I think reaching behind the little. Desk that it's on, it was so fancy, that place.

I didn't even have switches. They had lamps with little strings dangling off. Theme. Is it offensive if I do that? We can cut that out.

If you feel like your fans are gonna be like, why'd you get that limey on there? And he just rolled you? No, I don't think so. I'll let you know if it feels weird, I think. Cause we're talking about it.

Theo Von
It's fine. If somebody was being like. But I think that's something that happened in America. It was like, people were like, fuck you. You'll try and sell us your television programming, but the only thing that's on it is you're only brave enough to make fun of us.

Like, you're not even artistic anymore. I think that's something that's happening a lot with, like, hollywood is they've become, like, fifth and 6th generation Hollywooders now. It's not. They're not as accepting of, like, people coming in and bringing in different ideas. It doesn't feel like a melting pot of ideas anymore.

It feels like the people that originally came there and had the ideas, some of that's kind of dissipated just by nepotism and stuff like that sometimes. And insularity, they're in a bubble. I'll say, like, you know, because I came up as a, you know, from the outward appearances, being british. But then I got my break in America working for Michael Moore, and then I was doing story first. One of the first stories I did was about the Ku Klux Klan.

Louis Theroux
And I was in. Yeah, I'm familiar with it. Okay. Zinc, Arkansas. And the show that I did, or the phenomenon of the Klan, or both.

Theo Von
I'm familiar with the one, where's the part where the guy, you guys are at the house and they ask if you're jewish or the guy talks to you? That was a different one, because then it was like, it worked. So then that was also. That was, I was with the neo Nazis in California, but the first one was a guy called Michael Lowe. He lived in Waco, Texas.

Oh, yeah. And he said, no, sir. And it was the first time I found I encountered that southern thing of being called sir. But in a way that felt formal to the point of slightly unfriendly. Yes, sir.

Louis Theroux
It's real nice. Come over here, sir. Like, it could have felt, like, polite, but it felt like distancing. You know what I mean? No, just like that.

And he was showing me all his signs and the sign, they were pretending not to be racist. Oh, yeah, I've seen this, actually. But they're in the Ku Klux Klan. So he's leaving out this stuff, and it says, and this is something, an atom we use for our woltz ad sales. And it's called for the discriminating shopper.

And it said, discriminating in red. And I go, but why does it say discriminating in red? It's just like that. Cause it kind of stands out. And I said, but does that mean you discriminate?

He goes, no, sir, we do not discriminate. No, sir. And it was an odd thing. But my point. The point I was going to get to was that when those shows go out in the US, I'm thinking, like, I'm half american.

Like, this isn't me making fun of american culture. But some people didn't see it that way. And I always felt, like, a very divided. And I did one. I had one where I went around Miami mega jail.

Like, the big. One of the biggest jails in the city. Oh, in Dade county. Yeah. Miami Dade.

Fourth floor. Fifth floor. Yes. So you've seen this stuff? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Theo Von
I'm familiar. I don't want you to think that I'm not familiar. I appreciate it. So I thought it was a good show, but then when it went out on Netflix, I guess most people, a lot of people liked it, but some of the comments were, like, from people, I think, black people, who are like, why is this white british guy going in? Kind of making us look bad?

Louis Theroux
Which. It's a valid response, but it's definitely not how it was intended. So I'm conscious of that feeling of being insider, but outsider as well. Yeah, you know, it's fine. I was thinking about that.

Theo Von
I was like, I wonder what it feels like, because once you kind of as somebody who's coming to look at something and explore it and see how you can be a filter or, like, a kaleidoscope for the other people behind you that are gonna watch it, what is that? Is it tough? Like, at a certain point, do you become a bit of a jaded kaleidoscope. Do you become like a. Do you like.

Yeah. How does your funnel change over time just because of doing it more and more and because it garner also, it garners esteem. And so that's, it's just interesting how the different, how different factors can start to. I think the best thing that, the best thing that's happened to me is that I'm not that well known in America and, you know, it's changed a little bit for various reasons. So I have a little bit of a profile, but I think the fact that I can go in where if I did a documentary in the UK, I'd be pretty well known.

Louis Theroux
And it's fine. You can still do it. In some ways, it generates more goodwill because they're like, oh, we like Louis, we'll let him in. And then off camera you're maybe doing selfies and whatnot, which is fine, although it kind of eats into your time a bit. And you think, I'm supposed to be a serious journalist, slightly flying under the radar and here I am doing selfies at a riot.

Do you know what I mean? I'm like, I really need to be filming this right now. So. Sorry, someone's being arrested over there. Oh, just a quick selfie.

Come on, mate. And then in America, however, I'm just, I'm going around Miami jail. No one's going to ask me for a selfie there, do you know what I mean? And I love that part of it. And I never get jaded as long as I feel I'm meeting new people.

The only times where I felt like the dynamic changes is if I go back and do a follow up a couple of times. So I did a story about the Westboro Baptist church. Yeah, I'm familiar. That's in Louisiana, right? It's in.

It's in Kansas. Topeka. Topeka, Kansas. The capital. We have a branch in Louisiana.

I don't think so. Really? Yeah. They don't really do branches. It's really just a one.

A one stop shop. Oh, yeah. Unless there's obviously crazy. I use the term crazy advisedly. But there's other outfits, there's strange churches.

But with Westboro there's only, as far as I'm aware, there's only ever been one of the guys left and moved to Louisiana. I wonder if that's your thing. I think they had a Ford operating base or something in Louisiana. Maybe like a little beachhead. Yeah, like a.

Yeah, let's deploy from here. They. So when I went back. And I did the first one, like, hello, how does it work? Nice to meet you.

So you carry these signs. What's that all about? And then you made the program, and then I went and made a follow up. And when you go back, they kind of have your number. And I don't mean number as in, like, they know you're a prankster or making fun of them.

It's more like they just know who you are. Right. So they don't put up with any nonsense and you know who they are. So the point that the word used was jaded. You get a little jaded, and that creates a different energy.

So you are sort of saying, come on, just stop it. It's racist or it's homophobic, it's anti semitic. And you just cut to the chase quicker, which you have no camouflage, so it doesn't make it impossible to do work. So as long as I'm on a new story, even if it's a related story to some, like, if you put me in a prison in the US tomorrow, I'd be a very happy person. Wow.

Theo Von
So you like that? Sort of. You like being the princess and the pee. You like being the pee under the mattress? Kind of, yeah.

Louis Theroux
Yeah, kind of. I'm working with that metaphor. I'm waiting for it to make sense, but yes. Like, maybe I'm the princess in the sense that I love that fairy tale, by the way. Yeah.

You remember how it works? Like, she's. She stops the night and she says, I'm a princess. And they say, we don't believe you. And they say, here's how you test.

And they don't say anything to her. They say, get a pea. Am I. Do you remember how? And they put, like, 100 mattresses.

Theo Von
And this helps. They put all the mattresses, like, a ton. And the next one, they say, how did you sleep? And they said, I slept terrible. And they watched.

Louis Theroux
I was tossing and turning all night. Because the one pee. But the point is. A point about, oh, she really was a princess. Cause she could feel a pee.

I mean, she sounds kind of like a nightmare, right? Yeah, well, I grew up. Yeah, I definitely. I used to have those buzzer underwear that would shock you if you peed at it. You heard about that?

Theo Von
It didn't shock you. Just buzzed. Surely it was pretty strong, the voltage we got. You went through a lot growing up. We got a pretty high voltage package.

I think my mom wanted me to fucking feel it. Yeah, I got em for Christmas. It was a gift. I remember. And it was kind of fun, because you would be able to, like, just sprinkle some water on them and turn them on, you know, and so my brother would be like, do the thing.

You know, and I would do it. But, um. Do they still sell those? Oh, I don't know. That's a good question.

I don't know. Need to look into that. I think having the electricity and the urine in the pool of urine was a bad. It was a very eighties, nineties thing. But.

No, I meant you're like, you're the pea, actually, that gets put in. Like, you're the thing that has an effect on the. I see, yeah, yeah. I've got the distorting effect of being. Of mixing things up and.

Louis Theroux
Yeah, I very much. I do. I do like that. I. Yeah, I don't know what else to say about it.

Theo Von
Yeah. Like, what is. How does it. How did that ever start for. Start in you that you desired, like.

Louis Theroux
Okay, I like invisibility and I'm an anxious person. And. And because I grew up always worrying about things, I found if I was talking to someone who seemed off beam or just in any way, like, their mind worked differently, like, I was. Maybe all kids are like this, but I was the kid who, if there was a homeless person with his mouth open and I was like, five or six years old, I go, I'd be like, what's going on with that, mum? Why is that man got his mouth open?

What? Mumdeen? And they, you know, things you're not supposed to talk about. Don't talk about it. Or if you read about just weird stuff happening, like guys falling asleep and kind of getting, you know, and then burning to death because they were in the sun and they were wearing too much sun oil.

And it's just like, what does that feel like? I was just kind of. I think there were aspects of life that felt so strange. It took me out of myself and whatever. Inner voices of anxiety and disquiet, I had a.

They were silenced. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. So if you're on location, you're going and talking to someone who, like, the first story I ever did was for Michael Moore and it was called Millennium. And it was about people who think the end of the world is about to happen.

And my main anxiety was, I'm gonna be terrible at being on tv. Right. I just didn't think I had whatever that gift is like. I was very nervous. I thought, yeah, I know.

I always think I know at least five people who are way. Who would be way better at this than me. Like, my best friends were all really funny people I grew up with who went on to be comedians and talented performers, right? And I'm thinking I'm the least funny one in my friendship group, and yet I was 23 years old and I'd been given this break, and the only thing I had that I was clinging on to that I thought, but I'm going to take this opportunity of being a network, being a correspondent on this new show, because I want to meet these people who are part of these crazy cults who think the world is about to end. I just thought, that does sound like, that sounds fascinating, and I will enjoy that part of it.

And maybe in enjoying speaking to them, they'll get some usable footage. And that was really the launch pad. Like, was the fact that I just want to know, like, why do you think that? Like, what part of you, you know, like, when is it gonna all happen? When is Jesus coming back?

And what will he be wearing? And is that a Tuesday or a Wednesday? And the concrete detail or the UFO? There were four different groups, and there was a UFO group. They were landing in southern California that they, the spaceships were going to land in 2001.

And then there was a group in western Montana who were a part of a neo nazi outfit who wore little nazi uniforms. And I remember it was day three. First two days, it went terrible. It went terrible. With the neo Nazis, you mean?

No. Day one was Harold camping. He was a fundamentalist Christian. He talked like this, and then Jesus is going to come back. See?

And then day two was. It was a UFO group, and they were all kind of touchy feely. Like, we're not preaching doom and gloom. We're not fearful at all. But it was kind of like they kept talk.

Like, I just didn't feel like I was clicking with them. Like, they talked too much, basically, and I was too polite and scared to interrupt. But then, day three, the Nazis, bizarrely, were the most polite and the most sort of emotionally available. Does that make sense? So they were just.

I think they were just so lonely and so bored living like two guys living in a trailer in western Montana. Oh, yeah, the me arriving, and they're like, come on in. So great to have you. You know, there's a lot of truth in the prophecies that are written up in Star wars, the movie Star wars. And what about Star Trek?

Star Trek's another one. A lot of truth in that. Different planets for different races. Yeah. And I thought, like, I was.

I didn't want to talk too much about myself because I thought they'd probably assume I was jewish, because a lot of people assume I'm jewish. And I thought that would lead to an interesting dynamic. And it was just really striking how they were just thrilled to be telling the good news about different races going to different planets and how there was this neo nazi cosmic vision. And I would just sort of go like, wow, that's fascinating. Tell me more.

And in the ambience of kind of weird, I don't want to say friendship, but this sort of weird feeling of warmth that infused the room and the ludicrousness of what they were saying, I thought, okay, I can do this. Like, I can do my job. This is funny and interesting and that's cool, man. And I thought that was it. Not only did I think, I've got this, I thought, like, I'm one of the greatest tv performers of all time.

You know what I mean? It went like that. I was like, this isn't a segment. This is a feature film. And in fact, Michael Moore better watch out because I'm hot on his tail.

I'm way bigger than that. Yeah. Oh, it's wild how your eggs are three days in. Three days in. Of course I'm too big for this.

Theo Von
What's so wild? How your ego will kind of be the thing that coerces you, that tickles you enough and prods you enough to even get on stage. And the second you open your mouth, then it jumps right in front of you. Fucking thinks you're Katy Perry or somebody or Benedict Arnold or whatever. Yeah, I don't have a middle range.

Louis Theroux
Like, I'm either this is a disaster or I smashed it. Same. That's probably pretty normal, though. Yeah, I think that's pretty. I think it's, you know, I go to, like, twelve step recovery and they all do.

Theo Von
You. There's a term in there, it's always like, I'm a egomaniac with an inferiority complex. That's a big term that people say in their. It's terrible when you say something about, you think it's unique. And it turns out not only is it not unique, like, it's a cliche.

Louis Theroux
My personality type is actually a cliche. That's kind of disappointing, but pretty chill. It seems that's when you realize maybe we are all already AI's, you know, like we are in a sim. Well, I think there's nothing original about me or you. Maybe you, but not me.

Theo Von
Well, that's not very fair to put it on me, since you made it so sullen. But I will say this dude, one time, Joe Rogan said, I was talking with him, and I'm not name dropping. I know you've been over there before. And he said, you know, there's many of us out there. There's like seven Theo vons, there's like seven Louis theroux.

There's like a whole. There's like. There's just happening at the same time. And I don't know if I believe. And one of them is asian, and a couple of them are probably in Africa, which is crazy to think about, right?

Yeah, it is. But I don't know if I believe that, because it takes away some of your own, like, sense of being value to yourself, you know? That was one of the reasons why I've never said this before, I don't think. But when I went to America, I felt able to be on tv because I thought, well, there's not many people like me here, you know, and I could be the british guy, whereas in the UK, and certainly in London, I feel like there's hundreds of guys who are just like me. Yeah.

Louis Theroux
Do you know what I mean? Whereas you actually. You carved a path for yourself surrounded by people who are somewhat. Probably somewhat similar. There's other versions of you out there, but you're the best.

You must be the best one. Cause you rose to the top. I don't know. I mean, I don't know sometimes why I've been, like, had success in this business or been fortunate. Like, I just hated not having a lot of opportunity.

Theo Von
I felt like. And then when podcasting came along, it felt like you could just do what you. You could just be yourself, you know, that's what felt. And it's like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

I've been, like, a slow evolver in life. I'm kind of a slow learner and, like, a late evolver, kind of. And so are you still fasting? No, because I. You were fasting for a time?

Oh, yeah, I've fasted for a time. I almost bit into a damn employee at a. At a best buy. Yeah. Or a Costco.

It was best buy. I don't go to Costco. Why not? I don't know. Is there a difference?

I don't like seeing that much food at once, because. Just too tempting. No. Makes me feel sad. Have you been to Aldi since you've been here?

Aldi? The supermarket? No. Everything's cheap. You can't spend more than 50 pounds if you try.

Oh, wow. It's wild because you need self checkout. So you have a little plastic bin, and it's a discount retailer, but you don't get a whole cart, like a trolley. Like, you have to pull a little plastic thing around. And then when you get to, you check out and, you know, you do the self checkout, but the barcodes are really big, so it's not too difficult.

Louis Theroux
Is this making sense? Yeah, 100%. Because if you self checkout, you don't want to be fussing with the tiny barcode. You pass it right five times, it's driving you insane. Right.

But the big. And then the bin's not that big. It's pretty big. But you pile it up, and then I. You could get as much in there as possible, and it's like 50 pounds.

Theo Von
Oh, wow. It's wild. I mean, it's not wild, but you save. So if you're. If you're thrifty as I am, you save a lot of money.

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Louis Theroux
Interesting. And it's not a judgment against american women, but it's just something that I noticed. It just seems like they have their own things going on. I think in America, sometimes it feels like a lot. We've created this space where women have to feel, like, this desperation to be seen on social media sometimes.

Theo Von
And I don't know if I feel that here. And I'm not even saying that. I'm not judging the women. I'm just saying that's just something that I kind of feel like we've created in the States more. But you live in Nashville, which is its own culture and its own milieu, right?

Yeah, it's quiet. It's like families. A lot of country and western music. Yeah, a lot of country western music. It's fine.

Louis Theroux
Why not New York or laden? I lived in LA for a bit. It was too much. It just. It stayed closed during the pandemic, and Nashville was open, and I didn't want to start paying the taxes in LA and have to.

Theo Von
And have it be closed. And so I was like, I'm going to move to a place that's open. Is there a big opioid and heroin. Problem in Nashville in all of America? There is now.

Louis Theroux
I did a story in Huntington, West Virginia, and it was. It was. It was. We called it heroin town, and it was one of those places you just arrived. Nicest, friendliest people, and just a terrible, terrible.

I don't. It might be better now, but back then, it was about four years ago, five years ago, a lot of people. Sleeping and walking, kind of sleepwalking, a. Lot of people dying on the streets. And then they get.

They get narcanned, and then they pop back to life, and they're mainly just annoyed because they're like, I was enjoying this, you know. Oh. Cause you brought. Oh, they were enjoying it. You knocked the opioids off their receptors, and they're like, what'd you do that for?

Yeah. Damn it. Let me ride. Yeah, let me ride again. It's almost like it's really become the new bull riding.

It's like. I thought you were gonna say bungee jumping, but, yes, it's like. And then. And then some, like, have you. Excuse me, sir.

Have you taken anything? And, like. No. Yeah. And they just can't keep that.

Theo Von
Like, I'm just praying. Let me pray for a second. Exactly. Yeah, it's wild. Well, one of the things that really.

This is where I think. Fine, would you stop?

Louis Theroux
It's really strange. Well, one of the things that started, they didn't even prosecute that family that did the opioid epidemic. Yeah. The secular family. That's fucking.

But they sued them. They got a civil suit, but they sent us. What does that mean? They're fucking riding around and eating banana pudding or whatever while people are dying in the fucking. They even hit a speed bump.

Theo Von
And they're like, driver, be careful. And like, that's an opioid, man that we hit. You did it. You know, it's like. And once.

That's. That's one of the things that's really started to make people in America be like, there's nobody looking out for us anymore. Oh, big time. That was a huge part of it, I think. I bet that book, by the way, empire of pain.

I haven't read that one. Patrick Redenkeef. Brilliant book about how they started making certain, you know, kind of medical company, three brothers and then the dynasty, how they created various drugs, each of them in different ways problematic, like, with side effects. And then the mother of all terrible drugs, which was the oxy's and whatever. And a lot of them live in stard now, apparently, you know, stard in Switzerland.

Louis Theroux
Like, it's a playground of the. Of the wealthy. Of the wealthy that are hiding from. Yeah, yeah. Wow.

Yeah. That'd be a good documentary. Yeah. If you could get in there, they'd probably don't want to speak. And then it must be tough for the museums are all having to give the money back and take down, you know, because they made all these donations.

Theo Von
Right. But it's. It's. I think you're right. I think the sense of betrayal and the way in which.

Louis Theroux
The way in which it was cynically rolled out and the way in which doctors were induced to over prescribe and legislators were persuaded. Yeah, that's unfair. Sales reps were all incentivized to make inappropriate sales. I mean, everyone knows this now, but, yeah, it was way worse than the pandemic. Right.

In terms of, like, the loss of life. Unbelievably worse. And to think that it was. Yeah. To think that it didn't even hit that big of a crescendo.

I've never taken it. Yeah. Have you? I've never taken it, I'm afraid. Fentanyl.

Yeah, got that good. Fentanyl. God, they got it. That Fenny, they call it. Is it that fenty?

Theo Von
People just. Yeah, just lay there and then. Carfentanil. It's like, each one. Do you know about carfentanil?

Louis Theroux
That's the elephant tranquilizer. It's like it's 100 times stronger. 100 times what, than fentanyl? And fentanyl, if you touch it, you can overdose. Yeah.

You don't even have to take it. And so police officers are bagging it up and then keeling over. Say, this is the best day of my life. It's a sad. That's awful.

And then. Or inhaling it, right. When they used to break into meth labs, and then there was, like, the officers were getting a. During a keeling over because they weren't wearing gas masks. You remember all of that?

Theo Von
Some of them weren't doing it on purpose. I bet after that first day, they're like, yeah, I'm leaving this at home. I'll be back. You leave this one for me. I'll bag it up.

Louis Theroux
You get on with the next hit. Yeah, no, it's. It's awful. That car and then. Car fentanyl 100 times.

It might be ten times. Do you have a guy who can Google? Have you got a Google guy like Joe does? He can do it, right? Can he google it?

Theo Von
He's an import. Who's Joe's? Joe's Google. Jamie, get Jamie. Jamie.

Louis Theroux
Can you check that? Yeah. Can you bring that up? Dude, black people in wishing wells. Is that what you were looking for?

Theo Von
He's always got the crate. Carfentanil is like, I think it's 100 times stronger. That's. It's like, what are we doing? How could we?

Yeah, I think at that point, people were like, no. And so that after that happened and then Covid happened, that's one of the huge reasons nobody trusted any of the pharmaceutical industry, because everybody just seen. I have four friends that died from fentanyl. Right? Seriously?

Swear to God. Absolutely. Deceased people you grew up with off. The face of the earth. Some from adulthood, but some from childhood, right?

Gone. That's just me. And I don't even run in those circles, so I can't even. So once Covid happened, and then it became like, oh, we're gonna trust a pharmaceutical fuck. No.

That's where a lot of America was. I think a lot of people don't have talk about that, but to me, that was a huge link. That's wild. Car fentanyl. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know. You shouldn't be in a car, first of all, if you're in a car. It'S nothing to do with being in a car, right? It's called car fentanyl.

Well, then that's a strange name. It is a strange fentanyl. Okay, fair. Give me that. Yeah, but, yeah, yeah, it's so strong.

Louis Theroux
It's for cars. No, it isn't that. God damn. I just saw a couple tow trucks doing. Yeah, that's not what it is.

Yeah, it's for elephants. They should call it something else. It's confusing. Oh, it's wild, though, dude. But, yeah.

Can I ask, is it. Because this is intrusive, so you must feel. But you're in the fellowship. Are you allowed to talk about that? Yeah.

Theo Von
I mean, I was on. Cocaine was my deal. Yeah, I liked a little bit of cocaine and. Yeah, I liked cocaine. You know, like, if you would have some cocaine, then I would have some.

Louis Theroux
Hopefully, if I had some now, what would you say? I would say, we'll take a break, boys. No. Cause you're in recovery. I'm in recovery.

Theo Von
No, I would say. I would look at it. I'd make sure it's cocaine. Right. And then I'd probably hand it back to you.

And then a few minutes later, though, here's what I would do. A few minutes later, I'd say, let me look at it again. How long are you clean? What's the term? How many days clean are you?

Two years. Congrats. Yeah. Thanks, man. I had a couple years and then went out, and it is what it is, you know?

But I never had a drinking problem, and I had a cocaine problem. Right. Did you ever struggle with anything? I mean, if you go by what the guidebooks tell you, I probably drink too much. I drink more than you're supposed to.

Louis Theroux
They say 20. Is it 21? 20 beers a week? 21 units or 28? It doesn't seem.

It doesn't seem like very many. You know what I mean? I mean, that's the first thing that a guy who has a problem says. No, but come on, that's like, 21 beers a week. Yeah.

That isn't 21 beers a week. That would be a good week for me. Okay, then that's a good. That would be. Maybe if England was playing in the.

No, but as in, like, that would be low. Like, in other words, I'll be like, oh, wow, I had a great. I think. I don't want to characterize it. Like, I don't.

Okay. I'm sounding defensive. Check in with myself. No, I like to have a drink, you know? And I feel like I find it relaxes me.

Theo Von
Sir, we're gonna need to see your license and registration. That's what I'm asking you for, sir. Okay, I understand. You don't drive. Never drive while you drink?

No. I think. And it's more the culture in the UK it's way more of the culture. Yeah. Is the drunkest thing I'd ever seen in my life.

I couldn't believe. Did you do some shows over there? Yeah. Did you have any guests? Were you doing podcast shows?

Nope. No. It was too much. Quickly moving. They like a drink.

Louis Theroux
We like it. Scotland. They like a drink. England. And there's.

It's. What is. What do we say about it? My wife says I drink too much. Good.

Theo Von
I disagree, but they have to say that. Yeah. They're taught to say that as soon as they're born. Do you think so? Your husband's gonna drink too much.

Louis Theroux
You tell her, I think she eats too many crisps. Well, I think it's very. She called chips. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Yeah, but I would never dream of saying that to her. No, she knows I think it every now and then. You can't say that. Why? Is she allowed to say, you drink too much, but I can't say, I think you eat too many crisps?

I gonna. Everyone. All the women are gonna be like, I used to like him, and now I don't like him. No, the women love you. Any woman I've mentioned you to.

Oh, I appreciate that. But then they'll feel like he's coercive. He's trying to stop Nancy from eating those chips. What's his problem with Nancy eating chips? I think it's, as you get older, do you find that you speak, like, women's language a little better?

Like, I feel like I understand, like. You'Re more empathetic with women. You just. There's certain things, you know, that you just. You don't ever say, um, you just should never say 100% do.

Do you definitely want to eat that? Just never say that. You should not even look at a piece of their food. No. Or look surprised or be, like, seconds.

Wow, really? Yeah. Never do that. Also, if they say, do I look good in this or in this, you say, you look amazing in both. Yeah.

Right. You know all this. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, I think as you get older, you just become.

Theo Von
If you look at a senior citizen, most of them could be a man or a woman. They often evolve into the same haircut. Your gender really doesn't seem that old. Are you imagining my wife and thinking that she looks like a senior citizen? Is that where your mind went?

You seem healthy, and your wife looks hard in my imagination. I do want to let you know that. Okay. But not, is she nothing crazy? No, no, she's very well, she's working.

Louis Theroux
At a library I did an AI. I wanted to do an anniversary present in a couple of weeks. I can't remember how many years it is because it's been so magical. That didn't make any sense.

But my point is, I thought, I'm going to do. It'll be funny if I do an AI picture of me and Nancy having a wonderful time together, celebrating our anniversary. You can put that into AI now. Right. And it'll make an amazing picture.

Yeah. But sometimes it's so over the top, it looks kind of. Of funny. Yeah. So Louis and Nancy having a romantic meal to celebrate their anniversary, and it was Louis Theroux.

So there was a guy who popped up in the picture and his beautiful wife, Nancy. The guy looked like me, but she looked like a. Like a 70 year old librarian. And I kept having to fiddle the search terms to make her heart like his much younger, very attractive wife, Nancy. But I couldn't meet.

I couldn't seem to get the AI to make her attractive. Yeah. So I ended up just putting in Liv Tyler lookalike. Ooh, let's get strong. And that did it.

Theo Von
I bummed a cigarette off her one night. Did you? Yeah. She seems like a nice person. She was very nice.

She gave me. I think she was. Yeah. She gave me half of a menthol cigarette, and I was like, yeah, I kept it. I didn't even smoke.

I took a couple hits off of it, then I put it down. Yeah. I really thought that was nice of her. It's funny how you can. You can tell a lot.

Louis Theroux
Maybe not that, but, you know, little encounters with people, chips passing in the night, and that was enough. You get a sense. Yeah. You get a little bit of a sense. It's funny that she smokes menthol, though.

Theo Von
It shocked me. But first time I smoked a menthol, it's like this tastes like it's good for me. Oh, yeah. That's that kind of mint, sort of refreshing. Tastes like you just had washed under your arms.

You're like, God, that's strong. Well, I could see a lot of black guys would smoke them when I was growing up. Yeah. But according to legend, according to legende. I'll tell you straight up, Terry was smoking them bitches do.

When I met him, a lot of the brothers would smoke him. Yeah. Cause they wanted a stronger cigarette. I think black people are just a. They can, they're strong.

They're just a tougher ilk. But they haven't. They banned. I'm not touching that, by the way. Menthol haven't they banned menthol or not?

I don't know if they banned it or not, but people are still doing it, unfortunately, and a lot of. A lot of redheads will smoke them, too. So when you see, that's sort of the, you know, if you look along the. I mean, yeah, redheads are kind of exotic, I would say, you know, look. In the Bible, but kind of.

Yeah, yeah, there's no redheads in the Bible. For real. So have you really checked that 100%? Will you run that up? How many genders are in the Bible?

And also. So obviously they're man made, I think that's safe to say. Right? Engineered. Yeah.

Louis Theroux
That's interesting.

I feel like, I was just gonna say, I feel like this is a good conversation, but I also feel like I've talked a lot about kind of stereotypical gender stuff, and I feel like people might think, oh, he's made all those programs, and he's been to incredible places. And that's what he's learned, is, I. Think, where they think we're just joking around and having fun. I think that's what they think. Yeah, 100%.

Theo Von
That's what I think. And. But I think there's also snippets of reality. I think when you talk with people, like guys who are creatives like yourself, there's. I think even you probably surprise yourself sometimes with what's reality, maybe at times.

And what's your imagination? And a little bit of both, maybe. I don't know. I don't know. My thing is, I'd like to.

Louis Theroux
I'd like to feel like I'm wise, and I'd like to feel like I've gone through life and I figured something out. And, you know, I've been to extraordinary places and delved deep into human psychology, and I've arrived, you know, like, with some elder. So some elder wisdom. Yeah, but I haven't. But I think people of respect that.

Theo Von
You're on the journey, no doubt. Yes, I'm still on the journey. I think a lot of people see that. If they pitch you, they pitch you on the side of the himalayas with a backpack on. Thank you.

Louis Theroux
And I think part of my gift, if I may put it like that, you've really seen some of my programs. That's a thrill. Where would you have seen them? I watched your new. Well, I watched the new documentary, which I do want to talk about.

Shout that out. I want to talk about that. Yeah, I'm not in that one. That one's. I'm executive producer of that one.

If it's the one I'm thinking of, we. Tell them you love me. Tell them you love me. Oh, it was great. It's.

I mean, it's dark, it was fat. I did not see some of the turn that it took. It's extraordinary. Yeah. Can I set it up very briefly?

Theo Von
That's all I was gonna ask you. No, because I want people to go watch it. Cuz it really was good. Yep, it really was good. It's like a true crime kind of psychology.

Louis Theroux
Psychological thriller drama. You will love it. If you like true crime type of stuff. I think you will absolutely love this. In a twisty tourney.

I can't believe what I'm watching kind of a way. It's about a philosophy professor and a very disabled young black guy who's non verbal and has always been assumed to have a cognitive, significant cognitive impairment. And she's a philosophy professor, and she starts working with him and appears to unlock all kinds of special abilities. And his family, the young guy, Derek, his family is obviously thrilled. He starts going to college, he's having philosophical conversations with her.

I don't know if he's writing poetry, but he's sort of writing essays. They have this meeting of minds, and according to her version, they fall in love and they strike up a physical relationship. But then questions start being raised about the nature of the technique that she's using to open up his abilities, his alleged abilities. And then the abilities come under question. And his family, Derek's family, start feeling, actually, he doesn't have the special abilities.

And this isn't a thrilling story about love across the divide, it's actually abuse. And she gets prosecuted and sent to prison. So you're all the way along, you're trying to figure out what really happened. It's on. Yeah, it blew my mind because there's so many little things.

Theo Von
Well, and one of the things that you have to know, or that helps to know if you're a listener, is that one of the ways she. That the teacher, Anna Stubblefield is her name, that she would help Derek? Cause he basically, at first you see him or you think of him and you think there's not a real him in there. Well, there's a. There's a.

Well, I don't wanna say that anymore. Let's look at that. But my people listen. No, I don't know. I'm trying my best.

But when you look at him, there's a him in there, but you don't know how much of him there is. And it's hard for us to see. A lot of times the person that is inside sometimes of a person that has a severe physical disability. Yeah, he's there, but he's, and he just got a profound disability and that's, you don't know the nature of what he's capable of. Right.

And, and she starts, she starts teaching. He, she starts becoming. She. The facilitate the way they did they, that they start to communicate. It's called facilitating facilitated communication.

Louis Theroux
In essence, what happens is she's called Anna. Anna. I can't get you saying Anna, but that's how she says it, so. And Derek's mum's called Daisy. And it becomes almost a custody battle between them.

And the first inkling that something's wrong is that Anna starts saying like, daisy will put some meat and potatoes down and, and Anna will go like, well, Derek really doesn't like meat. He's a vegetarian. And his mom's like, what? And he doesn't listen. And she'll put gospel music on.

They're from a churchy family. And Anna goes like, Derek doesn't really doesn't like gospel. He prefers classical and he likes, he drinks red wine and, you know, and he prefers cabernet and like all these sort of markers of what might be construed as sort of elite or slightly refined. I, oh, I didn't even think about. Yeah, so there's a sort of class thing.

Like, and so Dave's like, what, gospel's not good enough for him anymore? Like she's, she feels offended. Like the son that she's always known is being, is being kind of taken away from her, right. And it's almost like a power play. Like, I know him better than, I'm not saying that as how Anna meets.

Theo Von
But that's certainly how I come across to a mother. And especially, I think, also a black mother. He's not going to eat my cookie, right? Because he's a vegetarian. Like, he only eats nut cutlets now.

Yeah, yeah. He only eats like shortbreads or whatever. He eats corn. And I'm not trying to mischaracterize, not at all. We're joking around.

He only has a booyah base or whatever. Yeah, yeah. He said he was a vegetarian, man. That's insane. First of all, to say that a black eyes a vegetarian is absolutely nobody's gonna believe that.

Dude, name 70 black vegetarians, dude. Okay, maybe Arthur Ashe was one, but that's it. Nobody's buying that shit. So out of the gate, the mom was like, hmm, you know, so. But I, that's where it start.

Louis Theroux
There's a glitch and then it spins out. And then when she says, and then they have the moment where they announce to Daisy and, and to Derek's brother John that they're having a relationship. And they sit down and Anna and Derek sit down with John and Daisy and say, like, I don't know. I think they might have been excited to break the news, of course, but it's a sensitive thing saying, like, not only are we, because they weren't saying, do we have, I'd like, permission to ask for your son's hand in marriage? It wasn't like that was like, by the way, we're doing it.

Theo Von
Like, we're already, they said we've been shagging a bit. Yes, basically. And we're in love. Basically. I don't think they used the term shaggy, but it was along those lines.

Yeah. And I think it felt to Daisy and John, like, they still had a protective, because the kids, he's not a kid, he's a young man. The young man is vulnerable. Right. So they don't know, like, and also they don't want to think about him.

Sexual problem. Yeah. Having adventurous sexual relations, like, with the woman who's basically got a caretaking role. And it's a professional relationship. It's a complicated power dynamic.

Louis Theroux
So the brother John, he's so shocked. He goes and throws up. He's like, he cuts him to the, like, to the soul. Like, he feels so confused and befuddled by the relationship. I mean, a lot of it is just also the awkwardness of, you know, the bigger conversation is erase.

Well, I was going to say disability. Oh, okay. Is that people who are very disabled. I say very, but people who have, who can't walk and in fact, maybe can't actually feed themselves or who have, who need round the clock assistance with day to day life and may have like, cognitive, really, like real cognitive delays, like, where they seem to be incapable. You know, they'll watch cartoons and enjoy life, but they're not going to be reading books and stuff.

A lot of people don't want to think about the sexual relations. It's almost like they're infantilized and it's seen as inappropriate that they have sexual desires. Right. But they do. They could.

Of course they do, because they're full grown people. Right. Yeah. They're going to be obvious. And especially, well, one of the things you have to let people know too, I think, is the way that Anna, or Anna would communicate.

Theo Von
She, there's like this sort of typewriter, type of contraption. It's almost like a first typewriter you would give a child to learn to do typing on. Like a speak and spell. Yeah, like a speak and spell. And she would kind of guide his hand or hold his hand.

Cause his hand would often kind of vibrate a lot. So she would hold his hand as he would write out the different things he wanted to say. So right there. It's just such a. Like, who is the right.

Who is. Yeah. Is it mostly him? Is she guiding based on things she wants? Is she even unknowingly guiding based on things that she may want because there's desires inside of us?

Louis Theroux
So the allegation, the contention by the skeptics would be that because she had long conversations with him using that technique, a little like a Ouija board would be the other analogy. If you wanted to say that it was dubious and non scientific, but the allegation would be that she was, in essence, having long conversations with herself and producing her ideal love partner. Like someone who likes all the same thing. You know what I mean? Like a fan fiction.

Theo Von
Almost writing her own fan fiction or something, creating. And, you know, I'll leave it to people because it's sort of. Viewers could go on the journey and figure out what they think happened. But one version of events is that she was projecting a kind of idealized version and using Derek almost as a. Prop, like a geppetto in a Pinocchio type.

Louis Theroux
She was puppeteering. Yeah. A real life human used as a prop. But then it's so strange, right? And certainly possible, for sure.

Theo Von
It feels so strange to want to go spend all that with someone. Oh, I should shout. I have. I need to mention the director, Nick August Perner, who did a brilliant job. It's great.

Louis Theroux
Yeah, he's. He's terrific. And as much as I'm taking, I'm here talking about it. I was exactly an executive producer on it. But it was.

It's his. His project. He did it. Bring him up. Nick Orcus Parner.

Nick August Parner. August. Let's get a video fit. Picture the man. There we go.

There he is. There he is. What a handsome man. Look at his eyes. Why would I look like that?

Theo Von
Is he Bangladeshi, you think? I think he. I don't know his. I know. I never asked.

Louis Theroux
I don't think August Perna sounds like a bangladeshi name, but I love that he's got beautiful swarthy skin and piercing blue eyes and a thick beard. I used to have a beard like that and then I got alopecia. Did you really? Yeah. My beard fell out.

Theo Von
Oh, my God. And my hair's gone thin. I have patches in my hair. That's an exclusive. I've never spoken about that on a.

Podcast about having alopecia. Yeah. And is it a real thing you have to deal with all the time? Well, it's always there. It's there when I look in the mirror.

Louis Theroux
And if I touch my hair, I used to feel kind of thick, lustrous locks, like, gorgeous. Just enjoyable. Like a bit like your hair. It's thin, though. It starts to get thin, and then.

And then little holes appear. Can you see that? And my beard, it's coming back, but it's white. I feel like one of those guys who's seen a ghost and their hair goes white and falls out. Oh.

Theo Von
Oh, yeah. That sounds very like a Scooby doo. Yet. Does it stress you out or do you care that much? You already have a family.

You have a wife. I care because I think my wife, the last thing I need is to be even less attractive to her. Yeah. Have another crisp Lindsay or whatever. Exactly.

Yeah. Nancy. Like, he's coercive. She doesn't sound like that. He's coercive.

Louis Theroux
And he's almost bald. He's got patches in his hair. You need to leave him. He's no good for you. Right.

Theo Von
You know, and that's your daughter saying that. Exactly. He's no good for you. Your wife's friends, you've got that to look forward to. Is like the toxic friend.

Yeah. You're too good for him. Oh, yeah. My every girlfriend I've ever had has had that friend for sure. And they were right.

Louis Theroux
They were right. She is too good for me. You're all too good for us. When you really, when it really comes. Down to so much better looking than I am, and I'm pitting so.

But I was on tv when I met her, so it was adjusted. It was adjusted for celebrity. It happens to, you know what one thing that I thought was interesting about, tell them you love me. Is that right? Yeah.

Theo Von
Was that so? She kind of has the ability to guide his hand, possibly. Right. Or probably does some ability to guide it. She has the ability.

Louis Theroux
And whether she's doing it is the question. Right. And only she kind of knows. Yeah. Like, there's some studies in there that a doctor or a scientist does.

Theo Von
It helps you get a little bit of inclination, but. But even then you're not fully sure because some people say, like, we're the keys to each other's locks. Right. Like, when we. Maybe when we join hands, something more magical can happen, you know?

But then also I start to think about, like, the ownership now of, like, social media and these bigger corporations that own a lot of the platforms that we communicate on, because they can dictate if we're even allowed to say certain things. You know, it's like, you might write what you really want to say, but at some point they can say, well, we understand what you'd like to say, but you're only allowed to say these things. Are you okay if we format it for that? And you have to say yes, and if you hit no, it just asks you the question again, seriously. I mean, does that happen?

Louis Theroux
Is that real? It just feels like that's very much where we're headed. Like, they give you a certain amount of emotions. You don't get all of them. If you want to feel belittled, you must.

Theo Von
You have to pay $2,000 a month for that emoji. I just wonder if that's what. You know what I'm saying? Like, what color are you in your emojis? Like, when you.

Louis Theroux
You know, the smiley face, did you opt for the white one? I'm sticking with yellow. And increasingly, I wonder if it's very asian. That's a bold choice. A lot of Asians would be upset about it, too.

Would they, though? Because it's a brighten puce yellow. It's no yellow that's found in the human condition. I would agree with you what emoji. Because, you know, there's a certain point where the first time you use a reaction, it gives you a choice.

So now you have a dilemma. Do I go white? Do I go off white? Do I go beige? I think it depends on what neighborhood I'm driving through at the time sometimes.

Really? Oh, yeah. Cause I'll be like, you know, this is what's going on around here. And you're half nicaraguan, so you must. Did you go white or off white?

Theo Von
I'll go off white. I'll go Middle Eastern sometimes. So you keep choosing different ones? Oh, yeah. I'll throw a sand brother out there, dude.

Yeah, I'll do it all, man. Cause you gotta keep people on the edge. I mean, I even choose the pregnant guy nowadays, you know, it's like, what are we even fucking doing? Is there a pregnant guy? There's a fucking pregnant guy.

What are we doing? They're trying to legalize all that, you know? But do you worry about that? About, like, censorship and what will be allowed? I've said this before, but it's like, it used to be like, you wrote on the paper, right?

And now you can still write on the paper. But what if. On a piece of paper. Yes, you can. But what if the paper, what if they own.

What if. I think I got shadow banned. I don't know what for. Well, here you go. I don't know why.

Louis Theroux
Either that or it's so boring that they were like, we gotta stop putting. We gotta. He's making the platform look bad. His tweets are so banal. Just dial them right down.

He's making everyone. You know, when I did Joe Rogan's podcast, I did it twice. And when he moved to Spotify, do you remember that? Big deal. And they gave him like 10,000 million, whatever, dollars.

Yeah. And some of them, they took off. Like, they took some episodes. They took one of yours off. So they took the most contentious.

Like, these are two. We can't put this on Spotify. This is too inflammatory. And one of mine was taken off, but I think it was taken off because I was so boring. I just can't because I said, it's nothing.

But I loved that I might be too spicy. And I was like, they've taken me down, you know, like, I've been made. They made me. They canceled me. Yeah.

But it was, I think. Cause first time I did Rogan, I didn't know how big he was. Was. And you know how he kind of plays a reactive game. Like, in other words, he doesn't.

Go on, say, like, I've watched all your programs. I'm going to do. I was going to do an english accent. I don't know why. Here's Joe Rogan.

I've watched all your programs, and I've done a lot of research. And he's more like, hey, welcome. How's it going? And I was like, I'm very reactive as well. So it's kind of like, how you doing?

I'm like, good. How are you doing? Good.

And then it was like 2 hours went by and it kind of got into a groove a bit. Yeah. I mean, it's probably fine. I haven't got. Listen to the one I listen to I thought was fine.

That was good. The second one, I went back and I was like, oh, I get it. Maybe that was it. Yeah, the second one was fine. So I'm quite glad that they.

But your point was about. So, yeah, I think they shadow banned me on Twitter. I can't prove it. Instagram, I'm okay. I can put a picture of my.

I could just. I can take. I could just do a selfie and put it on Instagram, and it goes viral. I don't know why. But, you know, if I say I've got alopecia and I'm feeling sad, you know, like, cynical, what do they call that?

Theo Von
I put three black dude emojis in there. If you say that, dude, just to. Spice things up, you think that would make a difference? Oh, yeah, dude, you bring a brother in. It adds some heat to the situation.

Louis Theroux
Because I've listened to your content, and you go close to the line. I'm like, I better check out what's the closest theo's got to being canceled? Some of it. But you've never been canceled? No, I've never been canceled.

Theo Von
You know, like, I don't know. Like, I think a lot of times, I'm kind of, like, just having a good time. You get a free pass, I think, because you're a comedian and people are like, he's just having. He's goofing around, and you're like, people know. I feel like a lot of times, like you're saying even just running in a liv tyler for 30 seconds and getting a menthol offer, you sometimes can know where people.

Louis Theroux
But didn't you used to work out with David Duke? They're harder at. Yeah. And, yeah, we just. All we did was fitness, dude, did you, like.

What's it called? Did you spot him? Is that the term? Does that mean something? I don't know if it means anything beyond the fact that you're right there assisting him in that moment.

Would you be like, hey, Theo, would you spot me? Would you. What could he bench? He was strong. Was he?

Theo Von
He was strong. I mean, he. Did you try and be. Were you trying to be a positive influence on him, or would that. Would that have been inappropriate?

No, I was using steroids, I think at the time. I was just trying to frickin be jacked out there, dude. I was trying to flirt with this chick, dude. His girl was so. She was just a gorgeous.

She didn't do anything at the restaurant. Like, she worked there, but I don't even know if she knew what her job was. She was just so pretty. People would just do everything for her, you know, like one of those maidens or whatever, you know? Did you.

Louis Theroux
But did you. You would have been, what, 1920? Yeah. Did you. And you knew he was, like, politically.

Theo Von
Well, I'd seen they used to have signs in Louisiana. It was David Duke versus Edwin Edwards, and he was a famed political figure in Louisiana who had stolen tons of money like most of them. And his. The campaign slogan was don't vote for the racist, vote for the crook. Those were the posters.

So you knew. I'm surprised he authorized them that, but. I think people would rather be stolen from at the time. People would rather be stolen from then have a little bit of racism be going on. He's.

Louis Theroux
But Duke got a majority of the white vote. He might have done. Okay. Yeah. I don't remember.

Theo Von
That's a good question. What was the runoff vote between David do or the. David Duke and Edwin? First of all, Duke, he got the, whatever, was it, the republican nomination. Like, he ran for Senate.

Did he really? Yeah, he got. And then got the majority of the white vote in the race in the final. When I knew him, he was just doing chest and tries, you know, like, that's what he was doing. Was he?

Yeah. I don't even know what. Yeah. How do you. Yeah, I'm trying to work out and be, I'm trying to get more hench.

Louis Theroux
As you get older, you lose muscle mass. I know that's scary about attractive for my wife. Oh, Nancy. Oh, Nancy. Um, what does it say?

Could. Does it. I can't. I can't even read that, but basically. Oh, is he the Democrat?

No. In 75, he lost to Kenneth Osterberger. In 79, he was the Republican. Bennett Johnson. What, is that it?

He was the incumbent. He got 40. Duke got 43% to 53. Yeah. United States Senate election.

I mean, that's wild.

Theo Von
Time. Was he still that guy, though? I don't. He may have been. He was.

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of old. There's a lot of racism in the south, you know? And there's a lot of racism that goes both ways in the south, too. There's a lot of black folks that do not like white people.

Louis Theroux
For real. Tons, dude. Tons. Anyway, it always gets looked at as the other way only. But there's a lot of civic.

But they're making. They're making up for lost time. I agree that there's some of that in there, for sure. They're like, I agree. We gotta get Simone back.

But documentary is called. No. Sometimes one of the tough things you have now is there's so much crime in a lot of the black communities, and it's very unfortunate. I've made documentaries about gangster rap. Yeah, I made a couple and one was in.

Theo Von
Well, I wish they were just rapping. Unfortunately, a lot of these men are shooting each other for no reason. Yeah. It's rapping. Seems like the only heartbreaking, man.

Two of my good friends have died. My black friends have died from. It's the only part of show business. Where, like, died from being killed, obviously, but. Sorry.

Died from just miscellaneous other men shooting them for no reason. It seems like it's the only branch of show business wherever actually killing someone is not necessarily a career ender. Rap music. That's a good call. Right?

Louis Theroux
Because you look at Gucci Mane. He killed someone. They said, yeah, well, it was self defense. Yeah. And no one really minded.

Theo Von
Yeah. Well, what's his name just shot. Killed someone at a Walmart not long ago. Alec Baldwin, huh? Yeah.

Louis Theroux
Again, that would be like, okay, now that's hilarious, dude. Thank you for that.

Theo Von
Every week he's fucking shooting, so he. Wasn'T even shooting a movie. And I think that's his defense. He's like, I thought we were shooting a movie. You know, like, come on, that's crazy.

Louis Theroux
That's too much. I love how he's on trial for this. They hand him a gun. Yeah. Shoots it.

Yeah. And the person who gave it to him. God, it's just the whole thing is just bad news. But, yeah, somebody just killed somebody at a Walmart and they're getting off. Oh, Dababy did.

Yeah. Dababy. Yeah. And I heard he was in duh, adult section. That's the crazy part.

Theo Von
Okay, that's enough of that. I was gonna say, though, it's a. Great documentary that you get. Yeah. And the truth is, is the part one of the things that his mom, Daisy, says at the end, he's like, but now he still hasn't recovered.

Louis Theroux
He masturbates. And if you. And she basically blames Ana for the fact that getting him started, she's caught Derek jacking off, and you're thinking, like, he's a 35 year old man living at home. What kind of world is she living in that she thinks that's pathological? Do you know what I mean?

Theo Von
Right. Like, what. What else? Like, what else would he be doing at home, you know, all day with no girlfriend? Yeah.

I just put two extra ottomans in the middle of the room and let him figure it out, you know, to be honest with you. Yeah. That's what a lot of kids need, you know, if he's at that. That stage in his well being, send. In, like, I don't know if this is, like, considered kosher or not, but aren't there nurses who can do that?

Louis Theroux
And by the way, a nurse can be a man or a woman. But aren't there nurses that can go in and, and isn't that part of therapy? Like that? You, I would agree. You would be allowed, like, someone do.

Theo Von
A milking of them? Yeah. Yeah. I don't see how that's not a service. Right.

You can get. Oh, dude, you can get somebody to deliver you, like, a damn power tools at midnight, but I can't get somebody to come over and relieve my cousin Ricky or something at 02:00 in the afternoon. I totally agree with you. They do that in Holland. You know how Holland's ahead on all this stuff?

Louis Theroux
They would, they'd do that. I think in Belgium probably bring that up. If anybody's milking. I don't know what the term is really. If some people are exasperating the, I think it's called.

There is a word for. There's a polite word. There's a kind of medical word that makes it sound okay. Something very british. Yeah.

Theo Von
If people are. Yeah. Manual relief or assisted ejaculation. Assisted ejaculation. Bring that up.

Actually, no, that's gonna fucking. And I'm 22 days off of pornography right now. So are you. Oh, thank you. Thank God.

Louis Theroux
How does that. As long as I've been in a long time. How does that feel? And you're in a hotel too. Where are you in a b and b?

Theo Von
I'm in a hotel. Oh, I'll, yeah, I'll, doesn't matter what kind of place I'm in. I'll bust. Yeah. But I haven't been, what?

Louis Theroux
Why not? 22 days off of masturbation, something like that. And off of pornography. I just have gotten into, like, this, this other program I have, like a kind of a per, I gotta check in and make sure. Just like, I just don't want to do it anymore.

Yeah. I wasn't having a problem with it, but it just had been a long part of my life where it's like, oh, this is habitual and I don't like it. How does it make you feel not doing it? It makes me feel more empowered and it makes me feel proud, like, a little bit. There's a part of me that makes me.

Theo Von
That feels proud of myself. That crazy.

Louis Theroux
You could get a bumper sticker or something. I wonder the best way of honoring that. Like, a little. I would say, like a little bump too hard. Yeah.

Proudly. What is it? Proudly, 50 days non jacking off. What would be. Yeah.

Is there a support group for that? There are, there is. Yeah. Cause a lot of it's just about, like, just making sure you're not looking at pornography? I just don't want that stuff influencing my thoughts and feelings.

Theo Von
Because then you start to, like, whenever. It intrudes into daily life, 100%. Well, when you're engaged in sex, you think of it in, like, frames of shot. You're not even involved in, like, a real connection with someone, you know. And after years of that and stuff, it's just, for me, it was really unhealthy.

Louis Theroux
So what are your vices now, then? Vaping, probably. Drawing pictures of tits. A lot of times, like, if I'm sitting around and I'm with a napkin or something, I notice I'll just look down and suddenly there's like six or seven sets of breasts or whatever. Tits or whatever.

Theo Von
Some people call them tits, I call them that. What else? Having some chocolates, probably. You don't drink at all? What about.

Louis Theroux
Are you California sober? Mm mm. You know that term? Yeah. You can still smoke pot.

Yeah. And take mushrooms, too. No, I've done, like, the micro dosing or whatever. And I've done ayahuasca, you know. Have you?

Theo Von
And that's really fascinating. That's fascinating. Did you want to see something you never thought could happen on earth? Go try that. It's like getting abducted by aliens.

It's almost as crazy as that. I'm scared. You've never been abducted by aliens? I don't know. Which is.

I think any good man should answer. Louie. Right. It's possible I'm a little scared of the ayahuasca because the people I've spoken to, they're like, yeah, it is really heavy. And they'll say.

Louis Theroux
And the person next to me, they were like, it was a pretty good trip, but the person next to me was screaming and thought they were dying. So that kind of harshed my mellow a little bit. And I'm thinking I might be that. Yeah, that person could have also just been scottish as well, you know, because I know they can get very verbose at times, you know? Yeah, the Scots.

Theo Von
Well, the whole thing's fascinating to me about the British. No, I think you would love it, man. Did we get anything on Carfentanil? 10,000 times more powerful than morphine. 100 times more potent than fentanyl.

Louis Theroux
I told you. The presence of car fentanyl in illicit US drug markets is cause for concern as. And that's the nice thing. If you're going to do cocaine, come to England. What's the look at?

The chemical formula is c 24 h 20 n 02:03 I mean, look up. A little bit more carfin. I'll go to. Go to Wikipedia right there. Who would.

You would just have to walk past it. Effects and side effects in humans are similar to those of other opioids and include euphoria, relaxation, pain relief, pupil constriction, sedation slowed, heart rate, low blood pressure, lower body temperature. You know, a lot of people choke to death when they take these drugs because they. Then they're on it. They think they're okay.

Theo Von
They eat. The muscles in their throat don't work right. And then they choke, and they choke to death. So you just imagine you're having a piece of chicken and you love it, and you can't swallow it. You tried to swallow it.

You did the normal. Your fucking neck breaks down. That's hideous. You don't. You wouldn't think you'd be that hungry.

Louis Theroux
You know what I mean? Like, it's like I'm higher than I've ever been, but what I really want is a chicken sandwich seems a strange. You know what I mean? Yeah, it really does. Like, I'm still not happy.

Theo Von
Yeah. I don't know. No, I think, yeah, that's a very. But every now and then, you'll be shocked sometimes when you'll try to do some food when you're high, you'll just surprise you. Like, oh, I didn't expect.

That's the worst. I remember I'd be all coked up or something and make a nice meal, and then I want to eat it. Just fucking do more drugs. But it's exciting being on Netflix with the doc. And for us, like, it took us six years to make this.

Louis Theroux
I mean, that was just. And I into. I joined Nick. Like, Nick had already been the director, had already been making it for a couple of years. Wow.

So, like, it's a eight, nine year journey. And to finally land it, not just in the UK, because it came out here first, but on a big streamer, like, Netflix. Feels big for us. Feels like a thrill. I know you've got your specials on Netflix.

They're the big game. They're the big game in town now. Yeah, they're good. It's definitely. You have a good experience with them?

Theo Von
Yeah, I think so. They actually made us. They told the fans, like, they were coming to shoot at the. At the comedy special, the last one, that they had to have COVID vaccinations, like, the day, like, literally three days before last time. Really, so.

Or maybe even no joke, two days before. And I thought that that was kind of fucking weird. Yeah. You know what? So everyone.

Louis Theroux
So it wasn't enough that you get tested, you actually had to get vaxxed. Right. And so that made a lot of people be like, fuck them, you know? Yeah. I mean, people love Netflix, but at the same.

Theo Von
Because we're addicted to it. But at the same time, I think people. There's, well, here's one of the things I noticed personally, like, so I went to the last blockbuster. Did you ever have blockbuster videos here? Of course.

Beautiful places. I used to use it a lot. That was Netflix before Netflix. 100%. And it's still functioning.

You can go in there. It looks just like the ones you used to have. There's a kind of disgruntled person behind the desk. One thing I noticed about that blockbuster is the autonomy you have when you're, I think, I don't know if autonomy is word, but the amount of just you, when you're walking around looking, there's so many options of things to look at and see. You're like, oh, I forgot about this.

I'd love to see this. Look at this. And what about this? Whereas once you get onto one of the streamers, it's really only what they want you to see. Like, you have to.

Louis Theroux
Unless you know exactly what you're looking for. Right, but before. But it's so hard for our brain to keep all that catalog. So for them to have all that catalog, but you don't really get to peruse it, really, it was a total different experience. And the joy you felt kind of finding something a little bit physically like, oh, let's watch this.

Theo Von
And things you never even thought existed anymore. So then you kind of get channeled into only what is happening now in a way. So I think it's also going to be tougher for movies to become classics or, like, build up that indie fervor sometimes. You're definitely a victim of the algorithm, and that's a soft kind of influence. It's not censorship, obviously, but what it is is a kind of curating of your experience.

Louis Theroux
Obviously they want you to watch as much as possible, so they don't want to feed you things you don't like. Yeah, but it keeps you in your lane a little bit. Is this is the risk? Yeah, but maybe they'll have, like, when they get further along with things like VR, you will be able to kind of go inside the tv. Right.

And look around on the shelves. That would be. Don't you think you would hope that that's what they're headed towards because. Yeah, just that experience was. So it just brought me back to, oh, I have some say in what I choose.

Theo Von
Whereas this felt like I don't have as much. But I was, though. I was one of those guys who would rent something and then weeks would go by and I would still not have watched it. I think I had Blade Runner for like three weeks. Everybody did.

Louis Theroux
That'll get. That gets expensive. Oh, yeah. Would stack up and you'd be embarrassed taking it back. And you'd say, give me a.

Come on, give me a break. And sometimes they would bring it down a little bit. Sometimes they give you some snow caps or something. Like, I need a fucking financial break here. But do you remember, like, when they.

You're probably too young, but when videos first came along and it was a new technology, it was kind of like before blockbuster, everyone. Everyone thought I could make money with this. So you would pop into the dry cleaners and then have a little v. A video section or your. Or the.

The 711 or like the local candy shop. Right? And they'd have a little, like 15 video library. You know what I mean? I didn't even know that.

Yeah, it was weird. That's awesome. And then there was a winnowing and they're like, you know, we should. This is ridiculous. We need to have some place that just does that.

Theo Von
We had a place called Pat's shrimp and video. And you could get you a pound of shrimp and get you a movie. Over there in Covington. Yeah, it was nice, dude. Get you a little bit of shrimp.

Get you a little film or something. You know what you'll find over here is that I think the chocolate's a little bit better. 100%. If you go in and no disrespect. And maybe they're one of your sponsors, but Hershey.

Louis Theroux
Hershey's chocolate, I'm not a big fan of. And either, honestly. And I'll say that out loud. Yeah. Come on.

Fuck those guys. Well, it's just shit. Chocolate. What are you fucking making for people? I think if I actually think, and you can check this.

They could not legally sell that as chocolate in the EU. Wow. Because they'd be like, there's not enough chocolate in the chocolate. Right? I'm serious.

Theo Von
Oh, 100%. You know, because the cocoa content would be. They'd be like, this is vegliet. We can call it vegilate. Right?

Louis Theroux
If you want to call it coke, Hershey's vegliet. But we can't call it chocolate. Yeah. Because it tastes. It's very sweet, but it doesn't have the richness.

Theo Von
Yeah. Like, we can call it african american butter if you want. You know? And, like, well, it doesn't need to be racialized. We just need it to be actual chocolate.

You know, you would think, though, also in America, that has had a lot of history with African Americans, you think at least they would put the appropriate amount of African American in the chocolate. Dude, that's the kind of shit that pisses me off. Hershey's lawsuit sparks british revolt for superior Cadbury chocolate. But I will say this. When you walk into some of the chocolatiers that are in Britain, it feels like you are.

Louis Theroux
Oh, yeah. It feels regal. It feels royal. It feels real. It feels ethereal.

And if you go to Belgium. Belgium? Forget about. Really? Yes.

Theo Von
Oh. I mean, it's ridiculous. Like, it's actually. It's like being in Tiffany's, like a jewelry store. It's that it's so redolent of class and kind of gourmet values.

Louis Theroux
And the things are exquisite. Like, they just make beautiful objects out. Of the chocolate presentations. Yeah. Presentation is off the scale.

Theo Von
Yeah, we. Have you tried revels? Do you know what? Try some revels while you're over here. It's a.

Louis Theroux
It's a mixture of different. I just, like, you don't know what you're gonna get when you put your hand in. And then they used to have, like, they have a raisin one, like, a crunchy kind of honeycomb one. There'd be an orange one, a coffee one, and they used to have a peanut one. Oh, yeah.

And then they have to. They had. They discontinued that because of the allergy issues. Yeah, but those people, we don't need them on earth. I think people would say, like, the joke was like, you know, people with allergies would use it like it was russian roulette.

Oh, I love that one. I don't know if this is going to kill me or not. The thrill. I don't know if anyone actually would do that. But a little part, I'm not going to be the guy who's like, is health and safety gone mad.

I mean, we don't want people to die from eating a chocolate. But a little part of me was like, well, so we can't have fucking. Peanut revels anymore just because that's a huge part. I think at a certain point, you have to go with the status quo. I was in a movie theater once, and I had my.

I think I had pick and mix. You know what that is? Okay. You just select different sweets and candies you know, a bit of them. Bit of them.

But you make your own bag. Okay. I was like, this is gonna be. And I sat down to eat the sweets, and the woman in front of me and says, sorry, just to say my son has a peanut allergy. So if you wouldn't eat any of your sweets, I'd appreciate it.

Theo Von
What? So of course, I'm like, oh, of course. Yeah, not a problem. I don't want someone to die because of me in the theater. But I was also thinking, like, what?

Louis Theroux
I can't eat my sweets? Yeah. Dude, that's incredible. Who do they think you are, John Wilkes Booth or something? It's not your fucking responsibility to keep this kid alive.

Theo Von
It's her responsibility. What if I go and sit over there? Nope. No, that's not good enough. Okay, dude.

Yeah, that kind of stuff. You know what I did. And we can cut this bit out. No, we'll keep it in. I went to the.

Louis Theroux
I went to far away in the theater, and then I ate them. Yeah. And did part of you eat them out of spite? Almost in a bit. Of course.

No, I ate them because I wanted to eat them. Yeah. But some of you, with each one, you were like, oh, that little motherfucker couldn't handle these.

Theo Von
Yeah. You're just firing them over towards him. Let me think about what else. Oh, do you think what's on your mind these days, louie? Like, what's.

What's something when you think, I've got. A podcast on Spotify? I went the Rogan route. Are you on Spotify? Yes.

Louis Theroux
Are you? But you're only. I know. I don't. I don't own.

Theo Von
I don't have a deal. But they can put you on there. Yeah. And they don't pay you? Nope.

Wow. I know you're making it sound like a horrible situation, but we are all. But we just put it on there just to be everywhere. Yeah. You're not a Spotify pod.

Louis Theroux
I'm a Spotify podcast. Oh, nice. The Louis Theroux podcast. So I've been doing that, and then I've got new shows coming up. I've got stuff that's on.

Oh. I mean, my big thing is I diversified, so I started making more stuff behind the scenes. So I've got a series. Do you remember the Challenger explosion? Yeah.

Theo Von
A lot of people said, those people are still alive recently. Where are they? Huh? Where would they be? Bring some of that up.

People have been saying that. Can you say Challenger people still alive? We did a whole. Do you have it? Is this what yours is about?

Louis Theroux
It's not about. According to us, they're dead. According to our research. Did I say challenger? I meant Columbia.

Theo Von
Okay, Columbia. Sorry, I fucked up. Columbia is the one that. It was in 2001. Oh, yeah.

Those people are dead. The challenger people, I think are alive, though. Challenger is the one that exploded on takeoff. Columbia exploded on reentry. No.

Louis Theroux
Yeah. And not only that, they had. I wouldn't say they knew, but they had an inkling that something might go wrong, and they decided not to tell the astronauts. No. And so the big.

The question at the heart of it is what. What could they have done differently? Could they have sent another rocket up and taken. You know, taken the people out in a spacewalk and bring them back home, you know, in the other rocket, like, send up a russian rocket? Right.

Could they have fixed it, done a spacewalk and fixed the bit that they thought might be damaged? So there's a lot of questions around how it could have been handled so that. So I actually. I wasn't an exec on it, but my company made that. We're very proud of that series.

Theo Von
Wow. And then we've got one about Lockerbie, and we do a lot of heavy stuff. Do you know what Lockerbie is? Lockerbie? That's not the Loch Ness monster, is it?

Louis Theroux
No, but it is in Scotland. It was. It was a village and a plane. It was a Pan Am plane that was flying from London to New York, I believe, and had a lot of american and british people on it, including a whole bunch of students from Syracuse University, I believe, and it was bombed. And there's a lot of conspiracy theories around that, or theories as to what happened.

So we made a four part documentary. That one's gonna be on CNN. So, anyway, I've been making a ton of different. And it's a. Do you do any behind the scenes stuff?

Like, do you have people you're mentoring or. I. Do you have, like, a production? No. Right now we've just been doing this sort of thing.

Yeah. You know, I would like to. Sometimes I think about doing some different. Like, I've had just some thoughts, you know, about stuff, you know, like, sometimes maybe about, like, Alzheimer's. Learning about that, maybe.

I made a documentary about that. That's an interesting. Yeah. It was called extreme love dementia, and about the ways. Yeah.

It's about how we can best look after people with dementia. Yeah. A lot of them are very happy. Like, not to sound weird. No, I think it's fine if they think they're young or a child.

Theo Von
Or whatever, you know? I don't know. But it's just about making them okay and comfortable, you know? Yeah. You just got to let them be them.

Louis Theroux
I mean, that sounds a bit glib, but, you know, if they say one of them was, he was a doctor. No, he was a dentist. And he was in this memory support facility in. In Phoenix, Arizona, surrounded by nurses and other very old people and fairly old people. And he'd been a military dentist.

And he was like, I'm on this base. I'm a dentist. I'm doing something dental. I know that. Like, I'm like, really?

You don't. You mustn't contradict them because that creates. Distress, confusion, you know? Okay. And then you change the subject.

So he thought he was still working as a dentist, fixing people's teeth. And if he was distressed, you would say to him, hey, Gary, would you mind taking a look at my teeth? And then he'd do, like, he'd do a dental inspection, and then he'd forget what was bothering him. So look, he's this. In this bit, we can see he's trying to get out.

He's like, I want to leave. I want to go through this door. But it says, push, and the alarm will sound. And he's getting agitated. And then I'm like, hey, Gary, here we go.

You're always going to be an Indian. Would you take a quick look at my teeth? Yes, sir, I would. They're not very clean, though. Well, I know.

Theo Von
You're a Brit, aren't you? Yeah. Well, you guys don't clean your teeth like me. I know. Lie down, please.

Louis Theroux
You got good occlusion. And now he's fine. I know you're on crossbite back there. Oh, yeah. I wouldn't do anything about it.

Cause it's not gonna hurt you now. Oh, eat my beef. Yeah. Sounds like somebody that's checking in on animals, too. Like, he could be breeding dogs or whatever, some of the commentary he gave there.

But the point being, he's happy and he's living in his own world. He's in a fictional reality of his own memories, and it's kind of amazing. I wanted to do something called children of the porn, right? It was like children that were conceived on pornography sets during the shootings. Right?

I think that's not many, though, do you think? I think you got to get at least seven or eight of them. You only need a decent batch. Hard to prove as well, because there's so, you know, if you're a working porn performer, you're gonna be doing at least three or four scenes a week, maybe more. Maybe not during a strike season.

Theo Von
Maybe if you went and looked during. A strike, during a scare when it's like someone tests positive and they shut down. So there are only a couple of shoots that year, that month, and if. Yeah. I don't know.

Just something that I. Have. You got an Onlyfansen? No, I don't. I don't have it, and I'm glad I don't.

What else did I think about? Oh, morning sex. Maybe a documentary about that. How did we get here? You know, like sex.

Louis Theroux
Because you're bereaved and you're in mourning. No. Morning sex. No. You're talking about, like, funeral, like post funeral sex or whatever.

I can't get out of my grief. Yeah, like. But you mean sex in the morning? In the morning, yeah. I just think.

Theo Von
I don't care what it is. It's just probably just. I think fucking somebody right after they woke up is pretty sick, I think. You know? Sick as in good?

Louis Theroux
No, because sick means good now. Oh. Yeah. Well, I think it just. No, it went back.

Theo Von
Now it's bad again. Yeah. Anyway, I'm coasting out of that. All of that stuff. Yeah.

Louis Theroux
Yeah. I'm pretty old. Well, I think it just also you. Part of you loses interest in some of that. Yeah.

Theo Von
Well, your penis. You've done all the tricks you can do with it. Just try to stay alive. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Louis Theroux
I'm retreating. You know what I like? Gradually, everything is. It's about. We just need to focus on getting to the next day.

Theo Von
Yeah. Do you feel accomplished?

Louis Theroux
Yeah. You're not supposed to say yes, but I do. I do. Because it's a really cool thing to say. I think it's important.

I. I don't think I. You know, there's. People have done way more, obviously, stuff than me, but because I've been so lucky with the career that I've had. And I think maybe because of that, when I came along, it was like.

There was various things happening in tv and documentaries and it was kind of like. It just. There was an opening. Like, there was no one who'd done kind of like. Well, there just wasn't that guy like that.

He's kind of a little bit cerebral, but he likes to joke around and he's curious about this and he's a good listener. And he makes. And then the BBC gave me, like, they just keep making those programs and they didn't really even check up on me. And suddenly, like, 15 years went by, and I'd made 50 programs, and I basically had covered everything. I mean, there's still stuff out there, but there's so much I've, like, I've done a prison.

I've done jails. I've done a maximum security mental hospital for pedophiles. I've done most of the high crime areas, like I say, most of, but I've done Philadelphia, Milwaukee, Johannesburg, Lagos. I've covered so much, I feel like I've had this huge privilege, this gift, and it's pretty cool. I don't want that to sound weird.

Theo Von
I don't think it does. No, no. Well, it's just a lot of times, especially, I think, in the US, we don't feel that. You never hear someone talk about, okay, I feel accomplished. But, you know, it's always just like, this never ending thing that is.

Louis Theroux
But I'm trying to make myself okay with slowing down as well, obviously by one metric. No, like, I'm not, you know, I grew up in a household where we valued Shakespeare. Me again. Welcome back. And so, for me, I accomplished.

My dad's a writer. Yeah. He's a travel writer. He lives in Hawaii and also Cape Cod in the summer. And he's written, like, 60 or 70 novels and travel books.

Like, he's off the charts accomplished, so. And, you know, and the people we looked up to when I was growing up, people like, you know, just great literary figures like James Joyce or F. Scott Fitzgerald. John Irving. John Irving.

He wouldn't have been. He would have been too close in age to my dad, so my dad would have probably. I never read John Irving, but if it was, let's say, Hemingway or Faulkner. Right. Thinking I'm mentioning a southern.

Right, you know who Charles Portis is? He wrote true grit. Oh, wow. And he was from, I believe, little Rock, Arkansas. He's a southerner, and he's dead now.

Brilliant writer. Everything he wrote is a kind of classic. Of a kind. So he was a. He wasn't.

He was just someone who. My dad was like, you should read Charles Port. He's like, true grit's well known, but his other books are equally good, if not better. So I read three of his books, but my point is just. And I totally recommend them.

One is called Norwood. Another one is called the Dog of the Southeast. And so by that metric, no, I'm not accomplished because I'm not a gifted writer. I'm just a tv presenter. I'm not even really a documentary maker, really.

Like, I'm not a director. I'm the guy who works with a director, and we say, hey, I'd love to go to a prison. And then the team says, we'll make that happen for you. And they go and they figure out how we get in. And then we get amazing access for two, three weeks.

Theo Von
Right. Or in a cult or in a, or in the world of adult film or the far right, some far right group. But you're the right amount of curious, though. But I'm curious and in a sense, by being a little bit scattershot, a little bit not ready for prime time, a little bit unfocused, maybe a tiny bit. I don't know what.

Louis Theroux
Maybe ADHD. I'm not sure what it is. I don't want to medicalize it, but whatever that is, I get impatient, I get twitchy. And then, so the people who are focused and on it can get me in there. And by dint of their work I've created, I've been part of making these programs.

Theo Von
It's cool. Yeah, I've been trying to, I'm trying to row back from saying I'm accomplished. I already regret. No, I don't feel. I feel like it's.

You very lightly said, I feel very lucky. Yeah, you very lightly say, well, most people view you as extremely accomplished, so I just think it's interesting to hear your thoughts on that. The pedophilia, man. What'd you learn about it? Because now sometimes people are saying that it's, you know, the next big business or whatever.

Louis Theroux
In what way? Like, it's like the next Apple computer or whatever. You know, I'm saying, I mean, I feel like it's like in America, there's like, there's, there's that NAMBLA group. There's people trying to, like, legalize it. They're saying that the Romans do it.

Yeah, Romans did it. Greeks, I think famously was Greeks, wasn't it? And they said that was normal in those days. And then there was NAMBLA. I remember seeing a documentary when I was coming out of, I used to live in New York, and there was a place called Kim's video, talking about blockbuster.

Kim's was like, it was way beyond blockbuster. They had everything and they had every kind of film. And they were organized by director. They'd be Curosawa, Spielberg, Jean Renoir, like some obscure stuff that you wouldn't see anywhere else. You know, go into blockbuster and say, where's your Curosawa section?

They'd be like, you know, yeah. Oh, sorry. We'll give you some snow cats. But Kim's had everything. And in the nineties, when I was coming up, I was working as a print journalist, and you go down to Kim's and it was like an education in film.

And they had a documentary section that had incredible, like, one film they had that I want to mention, you may even have seen. It was called Dream Deceivers. Have you heard about it? And it was about two kids who listened to a lot of. Is it Black Sabbath?

No, Judas Priest. And they had a song called Suicide Solution. And the two kids decide, like, they think the lyrics are saying, suicide solution, just do it. And so they're like, yeah, we need to. We need to commit suicide.

I know it's very heavy. And they. And they kill themselves. No. Yeah.

And then one of them doesn't manage to do it. He just shoots off the lower half of his face. So he's interviewed in the documentary. I gotta see that. But he can't really speak properly.

And then Judas Priest are prosecuted by the kid's parents, I think, saying, like, it's your fault. It's cause of the lyrics. And then Rob Halford from Judas Priest is on the witness stand explaining, like, it's not. You know, we just made a song. He's from Birmingham, isn't he?

So we just made a song and it wasn't supposed to tell anyone. To me, I can't. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, that's very. And it's a very.

And I remember seeing that and thinking, this is so fucked up. This is exactly the kind of thing I'm really curious about. And it's dark and it's all upsetting. And there's the kid. He's died since then.

Theo Von
Oh, man, I gotta learn about that. We just had a group on called the suicide boys, and they had a pact when they were young that if they didn't make it, that they were gonna commit suicide. Make it as what? As white rappers. So it was a fucking.

Let's just say the deck was stacked against. But there's some. There's some pretty good, I feel like down south, there's. Is it Bubba Sparks? Bubba sparks, he was on one time.

Bubba sparks. A really neat guy. Is he still going? He had some pill addiction. He still does do some work, though.

He still does work, so. But there's a lot of. There's a lot of white rappers out of the UK now. Oh, yeah. I would say white and black.

Louis Theroux
Very talented. In fact. The UK drill scene. Central c. Central c.

Did you have him on central C? No, I thought about reaching out to him, but do it. We had Ed Sheeran and KSI and you, and I felt like it was a good. That's a great mix. I feel like a very, very flattered.

To be in that company. What's. I mean, I feel very flattered to be in the company, so. But on the, on the, on the Kim, because you were talking about pedophiles being the next big thing in tech, which I didn't fully understand, but you. I don't know if I said that exactly.

You seriously like the next Apple product. Oh, yeah. I was just saying, like, it's like it's become this hot thing in America. It's like, it just seems like they try to make it seem more norm, like. Well, so the thing was, I was gonna say was there's this documentary that, in this, in Kim's in the documentary section, and it was about NAMBLA.

It's called Chicken Hawk. All I was gonna say on that was, so back in the day, Nambala was big Allen Ginsburg, the poet. I'm not trying to like what's. Throw shade on him or whatever. No.

Brilliant beat poet, much beloved. But he was a member of NAMBLA, I believe you can check that. But. And Howard Stern in the nineties always used to have, you know how you would have people on who. He had a clan guy who would come on and he'd make fun of him and he had a nambler guy.

He would have on. So my point is, just like, NAMBLA's been around chicken hawk, men who love boys. It's a very weird documentary where they spend time with a couple of guys or one guy from Nambala, and they're just talking to him, figuring out what makes them tick, what's going on with them. Did you confirm the Allen Ginsburg? Yeah, let's look back and just bring up Allen Ginsburg.

Theo Von
I just want to make sure that we're referencing. Yeah, we don't want to make someone part of Nambler if they're not. Well, he was their celebrity. Like, they had one celebrity. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah. Associated with NAMbLA, was a supporter and a member. Good enough. There we go. Nash is a north american man.

Louis Theroux
Boy Love association. So was Michael Jackson in NAMBLA? I mean, I'm sure he definitely performed at some of their events.

Theo Von
You would think. Yeah.

Louis Theroux
Do you get, you know what? Have you ever said, like, I went on Twitter and said, come on. And we all know Michael Jackson was a pedophile. Like, we've seen the program and even before that, like, there was no shortage of evidence. Like, his music's still great, obviously, but let's not be silly, but let's not be in denial about what's happening.

And I got, you get so much comeback, really, on Twitter, like, on x from that. Does that surprise you? Like, no, I'll say, I'm going to tweet that as soon as we get out of here, just to remind people. Yeah, I was really surprised. There's people who are still like, you know, like, that's so shocking that you would say that about Michael.

I'm like, what? Which Michael Jackson are you talking about?

No, but you're so. Your point? So I don't think they're trying to normal, but my perception, my. I saw when I went to Coalinga, it's a maximum security mental hospital for sexually violent predators is the terminal. And they go around in beige suits.

And it's a hospital, so they can't punish the men there. Right. It's a legal requirement. It's a hospital. So they're not incarcerated on the grounds of serving a sentence.

They've done at least two significant terms in prison for sexual offenses. And then two psychiatrists have said, yeah, we're not ready for you to come out. And they're like, hang on, I've done my time. What are you talking to about? I've done.

I've done 15 years. And they're like, yeah, but you're mentally ill. And they're like, I'm not mentally ill. They're like, I'm just a pedophile. That's their.

Theo Von
Oh, I see. Right. They're like, I don't have delusions. And. Which is, in a weird way, is a kind of medical.

Louis Theroux
Arguably a psychiatric gray area. Right. Cause they're saying, I know I'm a pedophile. Yeah, it's not like I'm in the. Yeah, like, oh, I'm not a pedophile.

Yeah, some of them are like. And I don't mean to be like. But they're like. I mean, I, uh. Because some of them are rapists.

And they're like, but I'm a rapist. Why are you putting me in like, but I did my time for that. And also, why are you putting me in with these pedophiles? Right. And this, you know, they're saying I committed a crime, but that doesn't mean I can't.

And, like, why are you letting out murderers but you won't let me out. But the argument goes, well, because you're mentally ill, according to our metrics due to being a paedophile. So anyway, so they're there and they're like, well, I'm not gonna. They're like, and if. When.

If you spend long, long enough here and do enough treatment, we'll let you out. And they're like, no, you won't. No, you won't. So none of them, very few of them are doing the treatment, but they can't be punished. So they play in jazz combos.

They're getting. They're playing tennis, doing art therapy. They can have porn. They can vote. I'm gonna vote for Obama.

You know what I mean? They're living lives, like, in a. It's too strong to say country club style, but like a relatively pleasant mental facility. And everyone in there is a pedophile. Or a, or a.

They've been or a rapist. They're predator. Sexual predator. Sexually violent predator. The term violent implies, like, oh, they don't beat you up, but it's some of its grooming.

It's a kind of legal definition of. Yeah. And then they play softball. They play a lot of softball. Wow.

Theo Von
Yeah, they. Now, if they live stream that, people would pay to watch that. And they sell their hair. Would you think so? I don't know, in a hobby, why.

Watching pedophiles play softball. It looks a lot like anyone else. Yeah, but still, every now and then it's gonna get a little weird and people are like, look at that. You know, people would pay. You'd be surprised, I think, of what people would pay for.

I wouldn't pay for it. I don't think I would look at the highlights or whatever if it was. On sports, like on ESPN five. Like one of the real, you know. Lawnmower races with the dog shows on there.

Louis Theroux
Dog shows? A lawnmower races. I'm saying lawnmower races. Like it's fringe, but that's probably mainstream. You know what I mean?

Like, and, yeah, there they are. That's the worst. Do you think this is a born sickness or a learned thing, do you think? I would say, according to what I was told, a bit of both, I think. But I think there's a component where it's what they term a paraphilia.

Like, it's just. It's like you can't actually cure it. You know, the term cure any more than any other, I was told, like, it's like a sexual orientation which isn't in any way to attempt to normalize it because it's just the idea is like, actually this is just something they are not even have, like, something. They are so. And they need.

And even, like. And what they. They have to. And they. What they do is they convince themselves that there's no victims like that the kids are okay with it.

A bit like Michael Jackson. Right. My theory with Michael Jackson is that the whole time he was trying to tell us what he was like, every interview he would say, like, I sleep in the bed with kids. It's love. What's wrong with that?

You know? Like, in other words, like, he was always trying to come out. You know what I mean? Yeah. Are we talking in his Diane Sawyer interview, or is Michael with Martin.

His Martin Bashir interview? There might have been. Was there an oprah one? He just wouldn't shut up about it. Yeah, I think it had to get.

Theo Von
Yeah. He had to find some way for it to let people know he probably was a nice guy who also had this affliction, you know? Well, that's the craziest thing about a lot of things. It seems like that you investigate. A lot of the stuff you investigate are these people.

It's not like they're. Some of them could be practicing. I think the kids took. I think it took the kids a while to realize they'd been abused as well. Yeah.

Louis Theroux
They thought they were just having fun with Michael Jackson. I don't mean to sound like. No, well, I think. You know what I mean. Yeah.

Theo Von
Well, I think it all just goes to what you believe is okay. You don't know. You know what I'm saying? Like, yes. In the over.

In the bigger scope of things, yes, it seems it's really messed up. And we were able to see that. But at the time, if you're there and you're in it and nobody's told you that it's bad or you haven't told anybody that it's happened, can I. Tell you, I've never said this before, but I heard a theory that, you know, Michael Jackson was on an episode of the Simpsons. I didn't know they pulled it.

Louis Theroux
It was an uncredited guest cameo as a mentally ill man who thinks he's Michael Jackson. Does that ring a bell? It's a really great episode. You can't see it now. They pulled it.

But the theory I heard was that he agreed to be on the Simpsons on the one condition, that he could spend the night with Bart Simpson. So they had to write that into the script. No way. So in the episode, he's, um. He spends the night with Bart, and they stay up all night writing a song together called Happy Birthday called Happy Birthday, Lisa, I think.

Theo Von
Oh, this looks like it right here. Yeah. Wow. I don't know, but I. It's always like, can I spend the night with Bard in the episode?

Louis Theroux
Yeah, but. Because why would he do that, though? Unless he's trying to in some way normalize adults and kids spending the night together? Unless he's trying to eat that. Eat my shorts, you know, or whatever.

Theo Von
God, it's crazy. Yeah. That's what I wonder with, like, a lot of the Epstein stuff and stuff. It's like, is there this overall master arcing thing that's leading us into this depravity world, or did people always used to behave that way? I don't know.

Louis Theroux
I feel like it was always. It used to be like, in this country, in the UK, we used to have page three girls, and you could be 16 and be a page three girl. And that's a. It's arguably porn. Like, they're topless.

They don't do it anymore. But, you know, 16 is very young and, like, to have that in your national newspaper. There's a topless 16 year old. They changed the law in around 2003. My point is just that I think in a weird way, it was more normal in the past to fail.

To fail to police inappropriate relation. Like, there was more sense of, like, you know, when you look at all the Roman Polanski stuff. Yeah. Or stuff that was happening in the sixties and seventies. I think nowadays I almost feel like the Epstein thing is a distraction.

I mean, I might be being naive. I feel like they're trying to make out. Obviously, he was a terrible guy. Right. Who was grooming and molesting teenagers.

But I almost feel like they're trying to make it, like, make us all feel like there's this vip and maybe there are, but. But I feel like it's all. Most of that stuff's actually happening in plain. Look at the stuff that's going on in the regular porn industry. You know what I mean?

They don't really need to hide it. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, well, it's part of. It's like.

Theo Von
Yeah, it's like. Well, I think it makes. Starts to make people think that, okay, the rich and elite are, like, on the island. I don't really. I mean, the island.

Louis Theroux
The idea of the island's kind of appealing. Well, what did island always adds? Mystique. Yeah, it adds a mystique. A private island.

Theo Von
What are they doing out there? What are they doing? And then people would fly out there. I think they were probably out there just eating chicken wings and, you know, rich, being rich. And it was probably quite boring.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Unless there was a group of dudes, because I've been around some real rich people and you start, you know, a lot of them do, like, they'll go on like these kind of sex kind of really romps and tours. Nothing would with. I've heard that and about some of the tech CEO's that they get together.

They go to Romania, just different places. And shoot backpackers, like in hostel. Oh, yeah, I haven't heard that. But I hunt humans because everything else is too tame for them at that point. Oh, I would believe it, though.

I believe that that goes on somewhere. The. They don't value a lot some people. At a certain levels, they don't value human life at all. I don't think the scary part is like, it's a bit like squid game.

Louis Theroux
If you got like a hundred desperate people, like if they were addicted to carfentanil or something. And you said, like, when are you gonna, you're all gonna be hunted. Of the hundred of you, maybe three are gonna get shot and killed, but the rest of you will make a great, like a really big paycheck. You would probably not have any trouble finding guys to agree, don't you think? 100%.

I mean, in a way, it's kind of like what boxing is in a way, because they're saying like, you're good, you're gonna get brain damage, probably, or a lot of you are, but you'll get a great payday. Yeah. And you can. Until you're about 50, you probably won't notice a lot of the side effects. I'm not trying to be down on boxing.

I've got boxes. But we all know that, you know, there's a brain, you know, brain side effects. Yeah. No, man. Just interesting to think about stuff, you know, it is.

And did you ever get to meet Michael Jackson or. No, I shook his hand. He did? Yeah. What did his hand feel like?

Very soft. Hmm. He. I made a film. It was the only time, I think maybe.

Theo Von
Yeah. You made a documentary about something about. Yeah, it was called Louie and Michael, or I louis. Michael and Martin. It was around the time Martin Bashir was doing his interview and I was trying to get an interview.

Louis Theroux
It's the only time I've done one where it was in search of. So I didn't get that close. But I did interview Joe. Joe was his dad, the one who he said messed with his head. The one who, because Joe would call him all kinds of names that later on, people alleged that was part of why he got his surgery, because he would call him pepper nose.

He said his nose? No, I'm not going to do an impression of Joe. That's a bridge too far. But he was. He just like.

He was kind of a bully. Yeah. Then Martin Bashir got fired. He was the guy who did the interview with Lady. Princess Diana.

Do you know all of that? And then turned out he got it on false pretenses by forging a document. And that was why Princess Diana. Princess Diana thought the intelligence services were snooping on her based on that. So she agreed to do an interview with Martin Bashir.

There's majestic, magnificent. So he was Michael's personal magician. Wow. So that right there. So you could say, like, what?

That's the best you could do was talk to his magician. But you could also say, like, well, who has a magician? That's pretty cool to have a personal magician? And God, he must have been just so broken hearted or in so much self pity. He also.

Theo Von
And broken hearted, who, Michael? Yeah. Or something just wrong, deranged with him. He had a personal magician. You need.

Louis Theroux
Ali had a personal magician. Oh, he did. Same guy, I think. Or maybe. Maybe it wasn't his personal.

I mean, I. He lived with the Jacksons. It's. I could never quite. Is this guy still alive?

He's dead, sadly. He was a good magician. Look at that. Do you see that?

And then Joe, my thing with. I thought I said to Joe, what's going on with Michael? You know, the angle I went in, one was like, he looks like he needs help. Like, he seems. He seems.

He's a brilliant artist, but he seems troubled. He's taking surgery, the surgery, too far. And I don't see a healthy relationship in his life. And, in fact, the relationships he did have, you know, with Lisa Marie Presley and what was the. Debbie Rowe.

Debbie Rowe was the other one. Yeah. Who was. He was like the receptionist for his dermatologist, Arnie Klein. I think that's right.

Anyway, I was like, what's going. What? Wouldn't you like to see Michael? And this was the slightly troll like thing I did, although maybe not. I said, don't you want to see Michael happy?

Like, settled in a. You know, in a consenting and happy relationship with a man or woman? Hmm. And what did he say? I think I said, boyfriend.

A boyfriend or girlfriend? He said, boyfriend? I was like, yeah, boyfriend or girlfriend? Boyfriend. And then he went off.

He said, you saying Michael's gay? You saying, michael's gay now. And then they kind of went off and freaked out that I might have. Suggested that he's homosexual, that he was. A gay man, that he was a homosexual man.

He could have been, I think, probably like, if he'd had. If he'd been able to channel his sexual energy into consenting relationships with men. Who'Ve been fine, then, you know, it's all good. I mean, a lot, I think of some pedophiles, when you meet them, like the guys at Coalinga, they're not the most attractive men. Right.

What a surprise. And actually, when I've met pedophiles, I've interviewed them also doing prison sentences at San Quentin. And a lot of times you feel like, okay, these are guys who have socially maladapted who, for them, like to have sex with. I don't mean to belittle it or, like, in any way trivialize it, but that's just an opportunity for them because children are weak and easily influenced. Does that make sense?

Theo Von
Yeah, yeah, no, it does. It's. Yeah, it's like some people prey on women that are weak and easily influenced. Some people prey on whatever they can that's weak and easily influenced or whatever they're able to assert themselves on. It's like, you know, heartbreaking.

Louis Theroux
Yeah. We had a decent amount of pedophiles in our area. Not enough to make a softball team or anything, but we certainly. They certainly had a group of them around. Was it known in those days we called them dirty old men.

Right. And it was called stranger danger. And it was dirty men and don't talk to strangers. Or they were called flashes. Oh, yeah.

You know what that is? Oh, yeah. I saw a flash once at a wine store when I was a kid, my uncle dropped me off at a wine store and a woman flashed me. There's a woman. A woman, yeah.

And what did you. How old were you? Probably twelve, but I remember. And were you upset by it? I don't know.

Theo Von
It was kind of like, by some. I mean, I've had a affinity for cabernet ever since. I know that, you know, for sure. Dude, what does that mean? I don't know.

Just. I remember being in this wine store, and if somebody brings up a damn cabernet, I'm just going to go. Right, because you were in a wine store, winner. Yeah, I mean, she just. And I just didn't.

And my uncle was driving me after and I told him, and he went back to the wine store to look for the lady. Dude, what a fucking pervert. Because he wanted to see for sure he's a pervert. Dude. His wife was on pills too.

Louis Theroux
What was she wearing? Just a kind of a coat or something and nothing under. Was she a customer in the store or she worked there. I didn't look and see if she had a receipt or anything on her. I know she was not, I don't think she did not seem like an employee.

Theo Von
So I think she was just somebody traveling around showing her body to children, you know. Did you like it? I was pretty. Were you confused by it? Mmm.

Louis Theroux
Were you upset? I don't think I was upset. I think I was like, all right then. Oh. Oh wow.

Hello. Yeah. Oh, I didn't know if I, you know what I felt like now? That I really, I felt like I didn't know if I was supposed to do something. Like am I supposed to do something now and then I felt like I didn't respond quick enough to maybe if I was supposed to do something and then I felt bad about myself.

A cousin of mine was, he was, this is his story to tell, but I'll tell it anyway. He was in Washington, DC. Not that that matters. Oh, there was a lot of pedophiles. Over there and a guy called him over to his cardinal, him and his friend.

I guess they would have been maybe eleven or twelve. And the guy was in his car and he was exposing himself in his lap. But you know, things happened quick and it was so decontextualized. My cousin thought that he was showing him his gerbil. So he was like, oh, that's nice.

Like that, that's cute. And then they went off and then afterwards they were like, hang on, that wasn't a gerbil. But you just wonder whether that was the reaction the guy was hoping for, you know, that's nice. Or whether he would have preferred. They were a little freaked out.

Theo Von
Yeah. What the fuck? They act on my penis. A gerbil? Yeah.

What an ass. In a way. Like that was the best reaction because I'm not, you know, I didn't phase him. Yeah. I had a guy come up to me once and he was, this was when I was twelve and it was, I was outside a wh Smith in Putney and he's like, and I used to like smiling at older people.

Louis Theroux
I just thought it was, yeah, you're. Supposed to do it. Yeah. And like, you know, they're nice and you're nice and sometimes they'll give you a little bit of money. Like here's ten p for being a good boy, do you know what I mean?

Theo Von
Yeah, for sure. He's like butterscotch or something. Yeah, go get yourself some sweets. And then you go, oh, I can't take that. And they go, yes, you can.

Louis Theroux
Yes, you can. And my family's all dead. Yeah, I waited. You go and take ten. Here's another 20 p and go buy yourself some sweets.

But this guy was like, I smiled at him and he said, I bet you've got a big one. I said, I still smile because I hadn't taken it in. I said, I bet you've got a big one with lots of hairs on. Oh. And I smiled and then I went off, and then I was like.

And, yeah, I was quite upset by it. We used to have a dude, he'd give you $10, right? And he would. He'd be like 40ft away. He would show you his butthole and all you had to do was look at it.

Yeah. And you got the $10. Isn't that. That's a lot of money, too. I thought it was a crazy amount of money.

Theo Von
We're like, come back tomorrow. How long would he be standing there for? It was just a quick, like, okay. Or, how did you know when he'd. Finished, he wasn't touching himself?

He would kind of bend over and pull his buttocks apart. Yeah. And that's how he would see us. And make sure that we were looking through your legs. Through his legs?

Yeah, and we would kind of. Through his legs. He would show us his butthole. Yeah, yeah, I got it. Yeah.

And you'd have to just do that. And then. Yeah, you got your $10. So I had a. We had a lot of gays that were drug induced homosexuality in our area.

And it was. They would happen behind, like, the rest areas along the interstate, and the men back there would get. Get in the river back there and make out and be high on drugs. Were they. Were they doing it for the drugs or were they already gay?

I think it was a mix. It was a big mix because it. Seemed like guys that maybe were. All that stuff's fluid, like guys in prison. Right.

Louis Theroux
And then you're like, well, you know, there's no gay men in prison, really. I mean, they're all gay. You know, there's no straight. Depends on how you look. Yeah.

Theo Von
Right. It's like, yeah, you might be in, you know, Sherwood for, you know, or where did Christopher Robin live? What was that place called? Sherwood Forest. Oh, Robin Hood.

Louis Theroux
Robin Hood. Yeah. You might be in the hundred acre wood. Acre wood. Okay.

Theo Von
Yeah. But you might not be a, you know, I don't know. I had a good analogy. I can't figure it out. But the.

Louis Theroux
I went to the doctor once because my bum was itchy. And it was. A few weeks went by, and then it was still itchy. And I was like, this is weird. Like, I.

I don't know, maybe there's something wrong with it. You know, you google it. And I couldn't find it. So I went to the doctor and I said, um, I've got a. I've got a very itchy bum.

And he's. I think he was french. But he said, I'll take a look at it. And then he looked at it, and then. That's already quite embarrassing.

Theo Von
Oh, the worst. And then I had the strong impression that he thought there was nothing, he couldn't see anything wrong with it. So I had the strong impression he thought I was just doing it for thrills. Oh, and then what am I supposed to do about. He said, I can't see anything.

Louis Theroux
I said, okay, well, well, thanks for taking a look. It was such an unsatisfactory. And you can't call later and be like, hey, can you let me talk to that guy again? Apologize? Yeah, I just want to say, hey, look, man, there was nothing weird.

Theo Von
Cause then that's weird. It's so hard to follow up. Have you ever had testicle problems where they have to look at your balls and then. No, I had erection problems where they would, like, shoot this stuff into your wiener to see if it worked good or not. And it works immediately, but literally, the guys, like, with a needle just right in here.

And it is harrowing, dude, why did. You, do you know why you had that? Just a lot of stage fright. Just fright from being a kid. Just constant nervousness, you know?

And it would just like, yeah, that was harrowing, dude. So they just needed to find out that it worked. They want to know that it, like, the inner. The ballast tanks or whatever work, you know, and so they would shoot it up and you're like, oh, it works. So it's in my head, it's not in my body, you know?

Louis Theroux
And was it okay after that? Yeah, it was hit or miss for a couple years, but it got better. Past few years, it's gotten better. Just, you get older, things wear off. Even, like you're saying, like, your desire, all that confusion, all the fucking.

Theo Von
You don't know. The paint comes off the car and you're like, all right, yeah, we'll just keep driving it. Keep going. Some porn performers use that, you know? Yeah.

Shooting them up. Shoot. Yeah, they shoot it up, like, because that works every time, and it's quick. Oh, I wouldn't. I would hate that, though.

Louis Theroux
They used to. I don't think they do. I think now the porn industry is so, like, it's all onlyfans and private people and the big set where there's pressure on and people standing around. I did a documentary way back, one of the first episodes of my series, weird weekends, and we followed a young guy called JJ on his first big shoot. I'd read a lot about how people get anxiety, and then everyone's standing around thinking, like, we can't shoot anything until you basically, JJ gets ready to ride wood.

That's the term. And so. And we were like, we're gonna be there filming. Okay. JJ and I didn't mean really to put a hex on him, but because of the nature of documentary filmmaking, you sort of slightly.

I don't know if even hoping is a strong word, but you are aware that you're going to. If you get. You're gonna get a better scene if. If he fails to get wood. And there he was.

And he couldn't get wood. Couldn't get it. Yeah. Oh, he's talking to it. That's the worst.

Theo Von
When you start talking to your own penis. He was kind of. I don't think he was talking to it, but I remember a lot of the people. He was trying to get something going, and it was just not happening. God, I've been there.

Louis Theroux
What a nightmare. And, you know, but nothing on the line. Like, he had something on. That's him more recently. I saw him again.

He lives in. He was living in Ukraine then. I think it was about five years ago, maybe four years. But back then, he was like. He was telling me about his techniques, and he'd done three scenes, and this was his first.

He was like, he didn't want to mess up on his first big studio shoot. It was his first big one. Yeah. It was a sad situation. That's a tough go.

Theo Von
There was one thing I want to ask you about before we leave. Oh, they just had a social media band. They wanted to put a social media disclaimer. I was looking at this. I want to see what you thought about this.

Louie. Can you see that in the news articles? There's a social media surgeon general's warning on social media. Can you. Speaker one.

Louis Theroux
Oh, I heard about this. Yeah. Is that here or in America or both? Not sure. They're basically campaigning to put a surgeon's advisory or a kind of health warning.

A surgeon general demands warning label on social media, and they're trying to make it more sort of childproof so that actually 13 year old, because you can get it. Like, my eight year old got on TikTok when we weren't paying attention. We were on holiday. He started a TikTok account, and then he was going viral. We didn't even know what was going on.

Theo Von
Right. We were just in a restaurant in Greece, you know, talking about this and that. We thought he was just playing on his iPad or something. And then the next morning, like, they came down. They're like, he's gone.

Louis Theroux
My older kids were like, he's gone viral on his TikTok. And there was a picture, and he filmed himself going, blah, blah, blah, making a weird, like, he obviously liked seeing himself, so he was opening, closing his mouth, and he goes, I like, roblox was making a shape with his mouth, and then for some reason, it kind of lit up TikTok. I don't know why. Yeah, it's just, I guess you don't. See many eight year olds on there, right?

Theo Von
No, I don't think so. Yeah. Like, who gave him this? How did he do it? People were giving him bad reviews.

Oh, yeah. And I'm like, he was. You was getting, like, tens, tens of thousands, you know, like, more than a lot of stuff gets on tv. Yeah. And people would say.

Louis Theroux
And then one guy was like, don't harsh on the guy. He'd just be vibes, like, kind of defending. Defending his integrity and. And the quality of his content. That's crazy.

Theo Von
Kid just started. He just. He was only his, like, third post. But I'm also thinking, you know, it's like having a portal in your pocket, like, or in your front room, you know, if you've ever. If you have, like, a million or a couple of million social media followers and then you have a few drinks, it's kind of.

Louis Theroux
I often think it's a bit like if you had a balcony outside your front room and you could wander out, and anytime there's 2 million people standing outside, so you could. I'm gonna go out there, and I'm gonna show them my wiener. You know? Like, you could do anything. Yeah, I'm gonna show them and tell them what's up.

Theo Von
Right now. Yeah, I got a great joke. This is funny. Like, you couldn't. And that's a horrendous.

Louis Theroux
I accidentally, like, also, there's famous people in your phone, and you go, like, okay, Siri, or you use the thing. And he goes beep, beep. And, like, I'm gonna send a text to Bill Clinton. You know what I mean? Like, I don't have his, right, but some famous person, right?

And you're one thumb click away from sending something crazy. Saying something crazy.

Theo Von
And what if it started to do it? What if it started just like, you know what? Fuck these people. Yeah, whatever. I mean, we're already calling it an algorithm.

We're already calling it artificial intelligence. I'm gonna. I'm not gonna call it any. My kids take. They think it's funny to do inappropriate stuff.

Louis Theroux
Yeah. That's part of being a kid. Like, they have a ball together and they. Maybe they. Even if you.

They have a phone and they think it's fun. Like, they take a picture of. Maybe one of them takes a picture of his younger brother naked or something. I'm speaking hypothetically, of course. Maybe they zoom in on his wiener.

His willy. They think it's funny. Like, because they can show it to you or, like, to their. You know, something like. But then one click, like, they have your social media account.

Theo Von
They put it. Put that on social media. Now you're a pedia file, and you'll go to jail. Not even joking. Right?

Louis Theroux
That would be. I'd be put in prison for that. And who. What court is gonna believe. Oh, yeah.

I didn't. My son took a picture of his brother's weiner, and then he posted it. Exactly like your four year old son did. Yeah, exactly. It's just.

Theo Von
That's at the risk. And then one thing like that is career, potentially career ending. And what if the actual owners of these corporate, if they wanted to, they could just post something on your fucking. Account they can hack into? You ever.

Louis Theroux
You clicking all those. What are the terms and conditions? You know, you take the one in Samsung, it was like, you have the permission to leave. Listen to everything I say. Yeah.

Do you remember in the smart tv and they were stockpiling everything? You said, their only get out was, oh, we're not listening to it. We'll only listen to it if you get into trouble. Like if the president thinks you're a spy or a terrorist. But other than that, don't worry, we're just collecting it, like, oh, fine, then.

Right? I think that's still going. That isn't even a conspiracy theory. I. Oh, I don't know.

Theo Von
Did Samsung. Can you bring that up, man? Well, you know, one of my beliefs is that a lot of porno pornography sites are able to record you while you're watching pornography. Yes. So that's how a lot of these people get compromised, I think, for all types of things is because they have video of everybody.

Louis Theroux
Your tv's spying on you, but you could stop it. On newer Samsung sets, go to settings support. Scroll down to terms and policies. Here you can turn off viewing information services, Internet based advertising. You could stop it.

Yeah, but tell me how many people are going to click through all the menus to figure out. I just read how to do it and I'm still not going to do it. Exactly. You don't even read the bit. That's like, quick start.

Here's the thing. You just like, put the batteries in, and if you can't figure it out on its own, then you get someone else to figure out. You assume it doesn't work. Well, even with having a child, people will have a child, not even read anything about them, and just take it home from the fucking hospital. Yeah, yeah, big time.

There's no manual, but you should do some research. You should do some research. They're not spying on you, though. Well, maybe they are. That's when you know you're fully schizophrenic, is when you think your children are.

Theo Von
Oh, yeah. There's a, Shane Moss is a great comedian who, he's like a. He'd done a lot of psychedelics and he wanted to do a documentary while he was on psychedelics, but as he was taking him, he got, like, further and further down the whole of them, and he started to think that the camera crew that he'd hired was spying and working against him. So now he started leaving clues to the camera crew. So whoever would be watching this on the other side would be able to come and help him.

Louis Theroux
But to be fair, it would be quite normal. That sounds quite normal to think that, like, I don't fully, fully, fully trust any crew, any team I work with. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. Because if you did something like.

Like, horrific in a weird way, you would expect them to expose you. Right, right. There's a part of them that would. You. Hopefully they hope that they would.

They caught you. They were doing a documentary about you and you did. They caught you looking at animal porn or something. Yeah. Then maybe that's a better story.

And maybe they should be, like, thinking about, we need to do this, like uncover. Suddenly their allegiance changes. It's no longer about morning sex. Right. The document about morning sex.

This is morning. We did go to, like 60 minutes and think we have Theo von looking at animal pornography, extreme animal porn. Well, so you can just go to any dog park and watch it for a little bit. It's not the close ups you want. Or David Attenborough, right.

That's basically what nature programs are. Oh, the snowfinch. Did you meet him? I have met him. I interviewed him.

Not for tv, but for a magazine. Yeah. What a voice of the times. Yeah. Soon it will die.

It will be weeks before it feeds again. I learned a lot from how sparing he is. Like, he uses the minimal, minimum amount of words in his voiceover. It's winter, the prawns are feeding.

Soon they will die. You know, like, it's just, he just doesn't say anything extra. And there'll be some little rye and then time for a nap. You know, like, you just throw in a little. It's kind of like a little bit of light irony.

There he is. Yeah. That was when I still had my beard. Look at that. That was peaked me when I had, like, a beard.

I had a little gray. It was, that was probably right, the beginning of, like, it was two years before the rot set in. And you met Nancy then? I was with Nancy. She got to, at least she got to be with me during the, you know, the golden years.

Theo Von
That's what counts, man. Yeah. Well, you have a love in your life. That's nice, man. Oh, yeah.

Louis Theroux
Very much so. I feel very lucky, Louie, thank you so much, man, oh, man, it's a real privilege. I really feel it's a thrill being here. For real. Yeah, it's really been nice, man.

Theo Von
I just. So many people were fascinated that we were gonna be able to have you hang out with us. And so a lot of women, too. Load real loads of women. Don't tell Nancy.

Louis Theroux
No, that's, that's nice to hear that. It's nice to be, what's the word? Like, obviously, I'm not on the menu, but. Or I'm on the menu, but I'm not in stock or I don't know what. Yeah, the market price is very high.

Well, the chef doesn't make that anymore, unfortunately, but maybe for special occasions. There we go. I love you. No, that's a joke. I'm fully, no, that's a joke, Nancy.

Theo Von
And you enjoy your Christmas. Yes, I'm sure you're a lovely lady and hopefully get to meet you one day. Louie, thank you so much for your time. Your podcast every week is just Louis. Theroux podcast through podcast.

Louis Theroux
Yeah, on Spotify. And tell them you love me is on Netflix. And tell them you love me is really? Really. It's really.

Theo Von
It's crazy. There's a lot of little things I felt during it. I was like, man, do I feel this. What am I know? Here?

It was cool. Thank you. Yeah. Shout out Nick August Perner. I mentioned him.

Louis Theroux
Enjoy the rest of your stay. Will do, man. Yeah, I'm gonna do my best. And I'll let you know next time I come in town, man. I have to catch up on your part next time.

That would be nice. Yeah. We'd be a reciprocal deal. I'd love to have you on. That's very fair, man.

Theo Von
Um. Thank you for your time, brother. Thank you for yours. Now I'm just floating on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves I must be cornerstone oh, but when I reach that ground I'll share this piece of my life found I can feel it in my bones but it's gonna take a little close.

Louis Theroux
Now I'm just floating on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves I must be cornerstone oh, but when I reach that ground I'll share this piece of my life found I can feel it in my bones but it's gonna take a little close.

Theo Von
Now I'm just floating on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves I must be cornerstone oh, but when I reach that ground I'll share this piece of my life found I can feel it in my bones but it's gonna take a little close.

E513 Louis Theroux

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2: Cultural Reflections

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4: Personal Anecdotes

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