829: Two Ledgers

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If you prefer a beeped version, you can find that at our website, thisamericanlife.org dot. From WBEZ Chicago, it's this American life. I'm Ira Glass. I want to play something for you today, and before I do, I want to get in front of something. The story is about Guantanamo.

Ira Glass

And I think lots of us hear Guantanamo at this point, and we think, ugh, it's heavy and it's complicated. And is it really still going on? And don't I really know everything I already need to know about Guantanamo? Maybe you've heard our code workers, Sarah Koenig and Dana Chivis over at Cereal. They've been rolling out season four of cereal, and it's all about Guantanamo.

And the premise of the show is enough time has passed that all these people who were there in its heyday could finally talk publicly about what really happened, what it was like to work there, what it was like to be imprisoned there. And you hear all these ordinary people who were thrown into this extraordinary situation where there were guards and interrogators and commanders and detainees in this invented offshore prison with its own weird, brand new rules. And you finally get a very clear sense of what it was like in there. But there are two episodes that they made that are about stuff that's just happened down there in the last couple years and about stuff that is going to happen, that's going to be in the news. And honestly, when I heard these two episodes, I thought, and I know this sounds kind of grand, that really every american should hear these.

They're the kind of stories that when you hear them, it totally changes how you understand the news after that. And they're also just amazing stories. And so what we're going to do this weekend next, we're going to do something we've never done. We're going to run these two episodes from cereal, two full episodes on our show. And so right now, today, here is the first of those two episodes.

Dana Chivas, co host this season of Cereal. She does this one. Majid Khan was 16 when his family moved to Baltimore from Pakistan. He went to Owings Mills High School, smoked weed, worked at his dad's gas station, and thought about becoming a dj under the stage name Bob Dacey. He listened to Eminem and watched law and order and paid attention in Miss Sanford's social studies class, where he learned about checks and balances and due process.

Dana Chivas

So when Majid Khan found himself locked away in a cold, dark cell at a black site in 2003, he told the CIA he wanted to see a lawyer. CIA is just shocked. And he's like, what are you thinking? Who you are and where you are? He's like, you're talking about rights.

Majid Khan

The sun, the gloves came off long time ago. That's what they tell me. I was like, no, no. I still believe in due process. I still believe in due process.

Right or wrong, whatever I did, I believe in due process. What he did. Instead of becoming a DJ, Majid joined al Qaeda. Reported directly to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the admitted mastermind of 911. Naturally, the CIA had questions for him.

Dana Chivas

But the way they asked those questions, they tortured him at black sites for years. And when they were done, they sent him to Guantanamo in shackles and a diaper.

Majid did bad things. He joined al Qaeda, wore a suicide vest, tried to kill the pakistani president. He came up with plots targeting the american government to blow up gas stations and poison the water supply near military installations to sell poison medication. In the United States, he delivered $50,000 to another terrorist, money the United States says was used to fund a suicide bombing that killed eleven people and injured at least 81 others. And then we did bad things back to Majid.

We disappeared him for three years, locked him away for 20, tortured him.

This story is about two ledgers. On one side, what Madid did to us. On the other, what we did to Majid. How do you weigh those against each other in the historical accounting to come? Which is worse?

Majids case is the first time at Guantanamo those ledgers are compared and someone has to render a verdict.

Majids story starts with his radicalization. Unlike so many former Guantanamo detainees, theres clear public evidence that he was in al Qaeda. He admits it. So this is a rare chance to hear how someone made the leap from self described normal american teenager to self described terrorist. Its actually quite simple to hear Madid tell it.

Majid Khan

The reason I joined al Qaeda was a Palestine issue. It begins with Palestine. I had nothing against America. I didn't have it then, I don't have it now. Is your fucking stupid foreign policy that your leaders make right that I criticized?

Dana Chivas

Some people might remember President George Bush explaining September 11, saying that al Qaeda attacked us because they hate our freedoms, our liberty. Actually, what al Qaeda really hated was our support for Israel, that we had troops in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, that we had invaded Iraq the first time in 1991 when I visited Madid last year in Belize, where he now lives with his wife and two kids in a bright green cottage not far from the sea. It was November 2023, just weeks since the October 7 terrorist attacks on Israel and the start of the relentless bombing of Gaza. In return, he had been watching a lot of cable news coverage of the war and TikTok videos. Like so many people, Muslims and non Muslims alike, he was fired up about the atrocities there, the same kinds of atrocities that had spurred him to join al Qaeda two decades ago.

What he was seeing was Americans making the same mistakes all over again, supporting Israel. You guys are so powerful, so smart, and you guys so dumbass at the same time. No offense. I mean, I'm not an american, okay? You know, by citizenship.

Majid Khan

But you guys amaze me every single time. What's the dumbass part? Not getting the basics. And I'm thinking, there could be another magite somewhere right now. No.

Imagine that. Back then, I didn't even. We didn't have YouTube, we didn't have Instagram. And I'm thinking, what are they thinking, these kids? And they're so stupid kids, so they could be easily misled.

And I'm thinking, how many maid Khan out there right now that will become like me? What led Madjid to extremism was a confluence of events. Growing up, he wasn't very religious. He and his parents, his seven siblings, they didn't pray regularly. He says his mother was anti religion.

Dana Chivas

When he grew beard, she made him shave it off. But in his late teenage years, after his family moved to Baltimore, he struggled with his identity. He wanted to fit into american high school life, to be cool. But he wasnt sure that being cool was very mad. He felt guilty that he didnt pray, that he was a bad muslim.

He started learning more about Islam from a group of proselytizers called the Tablighi Jamaat, whod visit him at work and at the mosque. And then when he was 21, Madhids mother died suddenly. She was the most important person in his life, the center of their family. He says he was devastated. He started asking the big questions about life and death.

He felt like he had sinned up until that point, had wasted his life. He decided to devote himself to Islam. No more partying, no more smoking weed. And it was at this point that he started getting more political. At the mosque, they talked about Palestine.

The world seemed black and white to him. At some point in my life, I had to choose path.

Majid Khan

Do you want to be siding with the oppressed or oppressor? I chose to be siding with the oppressed. Nine months after his mothers death, he went to Pakistan for a bunch of family weddings. His family wanted to arrange a marriage for him, too, and secretly. He also had a fantasy of joining the jihad, maybe training at the camps in Afghanistan.

Dana Chivas

Growing up in Pakistan, Majid heard a lot about the mujahideen, how honorable they were, how brave, like the Navy seals in the United States. He says he didnt particularly care which jihadi group he joined. There were a bunch of them. Ill be honest with you. I didnt go to Pakistan to join al Qaeda.

Majid Khan

They came to me out of billion people, billions of Muslims. I happen to have cousin and uncle. They're al Qaeda leaders. It was January 2002, four months after 911. Bin Laden had denied responsibility for the attacks.

Dana Chivas

Though the american government had quickly concluded al Qaeda was behind them, Majid didn't believe it. And then part of it is like, come on, Muslims could do it. And I'm into conspiracy theories. I was like, no way. I told my uncle and my cousin, like, dude, I knew the Jews were behind it.

Majid Khan

I saw on the Internet, I saw Ci. You were behind it? They were laughing at me. His uncle and cousin convinced him, no, it wasn't an inside job. The Jews didn't do it.

Dana Chivas

It was al Qaeda. It was us. But instead of being horrified by this information, Majid joined them. I was already pissed off about Palestine thing. Somehow the word I understood that happened.

Majid Khan

Now I gotta be careful what I'm about to say. It could be misconstrued almost in my mind. And I wasn't alone. There were some islamic community members that I was with that they did not appreciate it, but almost had, like, they had it coming. Like, the United States had it coming.

The United States had it coming because what they were doing in Palestine and islamic countries. And that's how you felt about it. That's how I felt about it at the time. I didn't like it, but it just. I was so mad what was happening in Palestine.

And it's just hard to explain that. I've never killed before. I've never seen suffering before. But somehow that what was happening in Palestine affected me so much that somehow I was okay to say, well, they had it coming, just like I was just watching Fox News yesterday and then everybody in Fox News, well, if the Palestinians didn't like it, well, they had it coming. They were the one who selected Hamas to be operated in Gaza.

Same thing I was in that mindset. I must tell you. I know I'm being honest with you, but I may come across callous, but this is a brutal truth. So please bear with me and try to understand. I am not trying to offend you guys.

I know you guys, an american and patriotic American. I hope you are, and you should be, and you should get a little irritated by these statements, and you should be. But I am just telling you, I cant sugarcoat my statements so that I can please you.

Dana Chivas

Let me be clear. Madid says he has long since rejected extremism. He left al Qaeda while he was still locked up at Guantanamo. He says he doesnt think 911 was righteous or good or justified. But he does understand the twisted logic behind al Qaeda's attacks because at the age of 21, he believed in that logic himself.

He has a unique perspective of a person who has lived fully immersed in both the culture of the United States and the culture of al Qaeda. He can explain both worlds with fluency.

Once he was in al Qaeda, arguably the worst thing Majid did is what Madhid did not do. He did not assassinate Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf in a suicide attack, but he tried to. When he joined al Qaeda, Majid volunteered to be a suicide bomber. I had shown my willingness to my cousin and told my uncle that, hey, by the way, if there's an opportunity, let me know. Did you say that with any kind of thought, or did you just sort of, like, offer yourself up without really thinking it through?

Majid Khan

No. I mean, I was sincere. I truly believed that this is the way to go to heaven. Beyond. How sure are you as night right now?

Dana Chivas

It's very dark out. Yeah. Yeah, I was that sure. That's the way to go. And you wanted that.

Why? Who doesn't want to go to heaven? I mean, you were 20. Like, you had so much of your life ahead of you. Yeah.

Majid Khan

The test is over. See, this life is test. The test is over. Mad's family had arranged a marriage for him to Rebiye. They're still married today.

Dana Chivas

He says their wedding was the happiest day of his life. But while they were on their honeymoon, KSM Khalid Sheikh Mohammed called Majids cousin. He had a job for Madid to do back in Karachi. The job was a suicide mission. Mad would wear an explosive vest to a mosque where the pakistani president Musharraf was expected to attend Friday prayers at a safe house in Karachi.

Madid tried on the vest. Ksam taught me how to wear it and how to reach out to him, how close to get to blow him up and basic training, like, you know, where to sit when he reaches. Try to get as close as possible. The idea was, if you can just hug him, we'll be perfect. And he told me, like, just remember, the idea was to do less damage to the people.

Majid Khan

If you can get clothes and shake hands and just hug him and press the button. Perfect. He says he did ask KSM what about all the civilians who'd be killed? Yeah, I did ask him. I did ask him.

He said, what about the civilians he justified? There was some Hadees was done where the prophet was at war. And in nighttime there was unintentionally some civilians were killed. Basically, in american language, it was collateral damage. We don't want to do it unless we have no option.

But somehow when you are in this cycle that I was in, it's like being tornado. You know, you're just you. There's not much time. You're not thinking, you're not staying. Oh, by the way, let's just think about this, right?

If I could go back and change it, I would. I wish I could go back and sit telling myself, calm down, cowboy. You know, think what you're doing. There's the consequences of your actions. Didn't think about my family and none of that stuff.

Dana Chivas

On that Friday morning, KSM drove mad to the mosque in a red suzuki. He sat through all of Friday prayers in the suicide vest. He told me he was calm. He even fell asleep at one point because he was a little bored. He just wanted to get on with it.

But Musharraf never showed up.

After the failed suicide attack, Madid continued plotting with KSM to blow up gas stations to import explosives into the United States. They talked about Madid becoming a sleeper agent back home. He returned to Baltimore for a few months where he was supposed to recruit others to join al Qaeda. But once he was home, his new path and his new identity, jihadi Madid, were not so clear. When I was in the stage, it was fascinating, you know, I was like, okay, you know, it's not.

Majid Khan

Life is not that bad, you know, living an american life. And then I talked to my cousin and uncle. And then they said, look, your heart has been poisoned again with the west and the love of west. So come back to us, we will purify your heart. I just.

Identity crisis, I don't know, whatever you want to call it. I loved living in America in a sense that my family and friends were there. That's great. But part of me said, look, they're right too. Like, I want to be part of mujahideen as well.

Dana Chivas

According to the United States government and to Majid himself, he never directly physically injured anyone. The plots he and KSM dreamt up were abandoned. He never wore a suicide vest again. The most clear of his crimes, with the gravest consequences, according to the US government, was delivering the $50,000 to another terrorist group, which prosecutors say was used to fund the JW Marriott hotel bombing in Jakarta. Majid says he didnt know about the bomb plot or what the money would be used for.

He was just told to deliver it. But of course, the person who asked him to deliver it was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the architect of 911. By the time the bombing happened, Majid was already in american custody. Early one morning in March 2003, hed been woken up by his brother. He was staying at his apartment in Karachi.

They heard shouting and banging on the door. It was pakistani intelligence. Are you Bob Dacey? They shouted at him. Hed used his dj name on a hotmail account.

They took him into custody, interrogated him and beat him. There were FBI agents and some other unidentified Americans there too. And then after months of this, he was turned over to the CIA. This is where the story of what Majid did ends. And the story of what we did to Madid begins.

The details of Madids time in the CIA black sites have been covered in the news and in the Senate's report on the CIA's rendition, detention and interrogation program, the so called torture report. The torture he endured was intense and brutal, which is why I was surprised to learn that he came away from it all with a respect for the CIA, a kind of opponents respect. It was one of the first things he told me when I arrived in Belize. We were sitting on a couch in his living room. His daughter had just made us some tea.

Two fans were blowing the sticky caribbean air around. And he just launched into it how he appreciated the candor of the CIA. We had a way Frank conversation, I mean, and they wouldn't be us with us. I mean, they were so honest with us, like, dude, I'm. I'm gonna torture you tomorrow.

Majid Khan

They're gonna torture me tomorrow. And they were done torturing me tomorrow. After one week, they're done. Okay, we're not gonna torture you anymore. I mean, they were very frank, very, you know, straightforward.

Dana Chivas

He said all the prisoners with him in camp seven, that's the secret prison at Guantanamo where he was eventually held, along with KSM and other men who had been tortured by the CIA. All the prisoners in camp seven felt that way. I mean, I've talked to KSM, I've talked to all the brothers in chem seven. We actually had a lot of respect for CIM. We understood why they're torturing us.

Majid Khan

We understood they want intelligence. It's part of the business. It comes with a job. And our job is to hold intelligence as much as possible, as much as bearable, and we had a mutual respect for that. Its not that Majid was okay with being tortured, of course.

Dana Chivas

The CIA did horrifying things to him at the black sites. He was held underwater, hanged, force fed, short shackled. He was left naked in the cold and the dark with music blasting. He didnt see the sun for two years, except in the brief moments when he was transported between buildings. He had barely any human contact, just his guards, his interrogators, his torturers.

One of the reasons why Madid wanted me to understand his respect for the CIA was so I would understand how he felt about his treatment at Guantanamo, to contrast it, because for mad, his time in camp seven was worse. He wasnt being interrogated anymore. Sometimes the FBI would pay him a visit, ask him some questions, but thats it. So the cruelty at Guantanamo had no purpose. CIA torture were like, you know, surgical, okay, for a few hours, a few months or whatever, they're trying to.

Majid Khan

There's a reason behind it. They're doing it. I get it where they're doing it. There was no justification what they did in camp 70. You know, it's like just hanging a cat for ten days just for sake of it, you know, it's just the nature, sadistic nature, that I could not understand in camp seven.

I try not to think about it honestly. It just. It was the lowest point in my life.

Dana Chivas

Compared to the CIA. The guards in camp seven could be brutally childish. Majid says they put metal and stones into his food. When he didnt return his tray in protest, they shaved his head as punishment and then took his tray altogether, just scooped the food into his hands. When the international committee of the Red Cross gave him a photo of his three year old daughter, the first time he learned he had a daughter, a guard took the photo away from him.

He says he went crazy, kicked at the door, tried to break the security camera. And then there were the noises, constant noises from the guards knocking on his cell at all hours of the day and night, opening and shutting the prison doors. The building itself made noise. There were high frequency whining sounds from the air conditioners and the security cameras. There were vibrations.

Majid was in isolation, no one to talk to, no distractions, no way to sleep. It all seemed intentional. When he talks about that time today, it still makes him upset. But the guards at Gitmo drove him to the brink, to the point where he felt like he was losing his mind just to mess with him. I remember pulling my beard, right, literally just pulling and banging my head against the wall.

Literally. Literally, literally. And I would to this, I'll show you. This is the archery. I chew, I chew that artery right here.

He was so distressed and so desperate for them to treat him better that he chewed through the vein in the crook of his arm. It was the only way he could get them to pay attention to the pain he was in. They had to respond. His arm was gushing blood. Had to take him to the medical clinic, which meant they had to write reports which the camp commanders would have to see.

Majid Khan

You had to act like a maniac to prove to them there is a problem. Madid said other camp seven prisoners did the same kind of thing.

Dana Chivas

Majid was at Guantanamo for over a year before he met with his attorneys. He hadnt been charged with anything yet. It was possible hed be held indefinitely or charged with crimes that could carry a life sentence. He was barely keeping it together in camp seven. He wanted out of Guantanamo, of captivity, wanted to be with his family.

He told his attorneys he would take a plea deal, admit to his crimes, cooperate with the government as long as he got the opportunity to speak in public about the torture. Thats what I asked for. I asked. That was my number one goal. Allow me to speak.

Majid Khan

Let me tell the world what they did to me. He was pissed. Sure, he understood why the CIA had tortured him, but he also knew it was against the rules. I was mad at that time. I was really mad.

I was like, you gotta pay for this, imma tell the whole world about it. So revenge. But also there was a practical reason he wanted to talk. He figured he could use it as leverage in his own legal case. It was a thought he'd had back in the black sites, you know, fun.

Fact, the CIA told me madhya, we can't let you go. I was like. I was like, why not? They said, look, we think if we let you go, you speak fluent English, and then you're gonna tell the world how american fucked me up and you're gonna end up in opera show or something. And that's the problem.

There's something, it's very honest people when it comes to the. They didn't hire. That was the problem, was it's not. I understood it was not what I did. It's so much what they did to me.

Dana Chivas

Maja guessed that if a jury heard what the CIA had done to him firsthand, they would give him a lighter sentence. Deep down, I knew that this was the silver bullet for me. Wait, what do you mean it was the silver bullet for you? I mean, it was a ticket out of a jail card, basically. It's like, you can't put a person like 50 years in prison and plus torture, right?

Majid Khan

So it just, from my perspective is that this was the only shot I have.

Dana Chivas

He had lived in the United States long enough to absorb an american sense of justice from watching law and order, his high school teachers, he calls it a side effect of being american. He was making a bet that the american public, by way of an american jury, would have the same sense of american justice that he had the other prisoners in camp seven with him. Madid says they did not understand this. It's remarkable to hear Madid talk about these other prisoners in camp seven itself, a place that was so secret, the government didnt even acknowledge its existence until 2008. No reporter has ever been there.

And then theres Majid, the only camp seven prisoner to ever leave Guantanamo. So hes really the only person who can speak freely about what was happening inside those highly classified walls.

The other prisoners with him were considered to be the actual worst of the worst high level terrorist leaders, plotters, and soldiers like KSM. There was also Abu Zubaydah, who allegedly ran his own extremist network associated with al Qaeda. Another guy called Hanbali, who was accused of orchestrating the 2003 Marriott bombing in Jakarta. The plot mad delivered money for. And then there was Majid.

Majid Khan

I was a green horn. The other detainees were older than Madid. He was only 23 when he was captured. Plus, he points out he hadnt done any hardcore jihadi training at the camps in Afghanistan. He hadnt shot an AK 47 or lived in a cave or sworn an oath to bin Laden.

I was the kid on the block, right? Everybody was concerned about me because they understood that this kid, you know, has not been to Afghanistan. He doesnt know much about Islam. He doesnt know. They were worried about me.

Its like, weve got to take care of this kid, you know? And then they did. I mean, honest to God they did. Otherwise I don't think I would have made it. It was so terrible in Guantanamo Bay.

Dana Chivas

Madid wanted to help them, these men he calls his prison brothers. And because he was a little bit american, he understood something they didn't. Just as Madid believed torture could be legal currency in his own case, he figured it could be helpful in theirs too. So I decided to make a torture sheet. He undertook a reporting project to document the extent of everyones torture on a spreadsheet he drew by hand.

Majid Khan

I wrote down all the methods that I knew were used after talking to other detainees. You know, like waterboarding, hanging, hunger, you know, met to sit, met to stand, just met the whole list on the left side. And then I put all the detainee names on the rest of the page. Not everyone wanted to talk about the torture. Some of the prisoners felt that it was better left between them and God.

Honestly, I had to drag it out of them. It was not that easy to even convince some of the brothers to tell me about that. I said, look, I'm just doing this project, let me do it for me. I said, okay, okay. And then they start telling me all about that.

I think the brother didn't understand because most of them didn't live in the states and they didn't understand how powerful LA torture could be an asset in their legal case, right? And I said, look, this, you need to, you gotta put it down. This could be a ticket out of here. And there was a lot of brother were pretty naive about this legal system because on their own experience, they had a legal system in arab countries, which is dictatorship. So, so it doesn't matter.

Every day we get torture. Egypt, Libya, yeah, what's the big deal? No, this is, this is America. You actually do have rights here, even though it doesn't seem like right now, but there's a system out there.

Dana Chivas

Things had gotten a bit more relaxed in camp seven by then. The prisoners could talk to each other through the bean holes, the mail, like slots in their cell doors which the guards left open for them. Majib would ask the other prisoners questions. I said, okay, how many times? Water burning?

Majid Khan

How many days? Okay, I'll remember. Three months. Okay. He interviewed them outside during rec time.

But, you know, he's working out in elliptical. I'm working out and I'm doing push ups, whatever. At first, he took a legal pad with him into the rec yard. But then he says, the guards caught on, said nobody could take legal pads into the rec yard anymore. I said, okay, no problem.

I'm not going anywhere. I'll get time with the brother. I'll interview her. So I would sometimes memorize it, and then I'll go back to my cell. I write it down.

So it took a long time to complete that sheet. He worked on it for months. Some of the stories he heard defied categorization. So then I had to categorize in a way that it just. That it falls in that category.

Right? Do you remember an example of that? Like, Nashiri had unique experience that he was hanged for maybe 18 hours or so. They call it two point restrictions. Like, your hands are tied up and your legs are tied up, right?

So there's two points, restraint.

And his experience was that restraint is one leg and two hands on top and then another leg to the wall. So he's like. Just like it kind of scissored out his legs. Yeah. So he can't move.

Right, left. And so that was unique. I just remember it was unique. I didn't even put it in there. I was like, okay, I'll just.

I made a side note. One of his interviews in particular stuck with him. Mustafa al Hasawi, one of the 911 defendants accused of sending money to the 911 hijackers. I asked him what was the worst torture? And he said, before I answered that, he said, I'll tell you, the world was the best torture for me.

And I said, what does that mean? He said, look, the best one. When they put me in, like, a coffin and they filled it with water, right? And you could just literally just. Or they put me in some box with the bugs and everything.

He said, I loved it. I said, why? He said, that was the only time I felt that I was not naked. For him, being naked from a man or woman, that was the most torture to him. By the end of the project, Majid felt he had done something great.

Dana Chivas

He had a record of the torture. The United States government was so intent on keeping secrets. I thought that this could be the breakthrough that we were looking for in our lives that could alleviate some of the pain that the camp were doing to us. He kept the spreadsheet in his cell, hoping to share it in court someday.

Maja's attorney Spent spent years working on a plea deal. Finally, in 2012, they reached an agreement. Majid would plead guilty to five charges, including murder, conspiracy, and spying, and he would cooperate with the prosecution, help them in their cases. Against the other prisoners. In return, he would get a reduced sentence, a maximum of 19 years.

And crucially for Majid, he would finally get to speak. To tell the story of his torture in court, Majid talked to the other camp, seven prisoners about the plea deal. He told me some of them were against it, but KSM gave him his blessing. But he said, yeah, I'm happy for you because he told me, look, I feel sorry for you. I've killed 3000 people.

Majid Khan

Who the fuck are you? You know, you're nobody in chain of command. I don't know how Majid cooperated, what information he gave the american government to fulfill his end of the bargain. He told me it wasnt much, but a prosecutor in the case told me that he did confess to plots the United States government didnt even know about. Yet.

Dana Chivas

After a decade of cooperation, it was time for Madid to be sentenced in front of a judge. But before he did that, he and his defense team had one more card to play. I guess you could call it the torture card. They would turn the years of captivity and abuse in the black sites to Majid's advantage. According to the rules of the military commissions and to Majid's plea agreement, Majid could call witnesses to support his case, that he should get leniency.

By then, many of the darkest details of the CIA's torture program had been waterboarding, the destruction of videotapes of the torture, even the death of a prisoner at the salt pit, a black site where Madgett was once held. But what were still a secret are still a closely guarded secret to this day are the identities of the torturers themselves. Maj's lawyers knew that the CIA did not want those names revealed ever. So they made that part of their strategy. His attorneys submitted a list of 115 people they wanted to call to the stand.

Some of the names were far fetched. George Bush was on it, along with Condoleezza Rice. Some were lower level, like camp seven commanders and FBI agents who spent time with Majid at Guantanamo. But most importantly, the list included the people who were involved in the CIAS rendition, detention and interrogation program. The torture program, the people who conceived of it, who ran it, and the people who tortured Mad.

Mad and his defense team wanted to put the entire government apparatus responsible for the torture program on the stand.

Unsurprisingly, a legal battle ensued. After years of motions and responses to motions and bickering and the intrusion of COVID the judge finally ruled, said Majid could ask for time off his sentence because of the torture, and he could call some of the CIA witnesses. It was a major decision in Majids favor. The governments hands were tied. They were never going to be able to produce the CIA witnesses.

The CIA would make sure of that. So instead, the two sides agreed. Majid would drop the whole witness testimony thing if the government would shave eight years off his sentence. Eight years. It was a lot.

Plus, the judge gave mad another year off to ding the prosecution for a discovery violation. So that made nine years total. I'm shaving off nine years. You can imagine how desperate they were. They could.

Majid Khan

They know they were fucked. What this meant, if all went according to plan, was that Majid would get out just four months after the sentencing hearing and he would finally get to read a statement in court about what the american government had done to him, which he and his attorneys would write carefully to make sure the government couldnt classify it. The one thing he wouldnt get. He wouldnt get to talk about the torture other prisoners had undergone at CIA black sites, everything he'd recorded in that spreadsheet, because that might give the government a reason to classify his statement. What Majid could do was tell his own experience as completely as possible.

Dana Chivas

That was the best way he could represent what they'd all gone through.

Nearly two decades after Majid was captured at his brother's apartment in Karachi, his day in court was finally scheduled. According to the rules of the military commissions, a jury would be present for Madib sentencing hearing. They would be told Majid had pled guilty. They would be told about his crimes, the money for the hotel bombing, the assassination attempt at Musharraf, his work for al Qaeda. But, and I know how strange this sounds, they would not be told that Majid and the government had already come to an agreement.

Instead, they'd be told to consider Mad's crimes alongside whatever mad had to say for himself and come up with an appropriate sentence. Whatever the jury came back with, whether it was a short sentence or long, it wouldn't have a material effect on Majids case. His sentence was set, but their decision would have symbolic meaning. This would be the first time a prisoner of the CIA's black sites would speak about his treatment in public. There might never be another reckoning for the crimes of that era.

Not in a legal way, at least. The jury would weigh the two ledgers. What Majid did against what we did to mad and decide for Mad, for the country where justice lies. It's what Madid had been hoping for for so many years. But now that it was finally happening, he worried that he was too late.

It was 2021. The country had moved on. The existential battle of the day was with COVID not al Qaeda. Madid worried that the only reason the government was letting him talk was that nobody really cared anymore. I think at this stage, I think CIA and the Americans know that American lost interest, right?

Majid Khan

Honestly, being really pragmatic about it, they lost interest. They know what happens. Bad shit happened. And it was almost like they created a tolerance for this. That is almost, how do you say, desensitized to torture now and its effect.

And I think that's what the CiU is acting. Fuck it. Let him speak. I don't think they care anymore. Honestly, what's the big deal?

Waterboarding? We already heard it turned 100 times.

Dana Chivas

So will they care?

Ira Glass

Dana Chivas coming up, Majid finally gets his day in court. That's in a minute from Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues. Support for this american life comes from Squarespace, the all in one website platform to stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful site, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content to time. Start a completely personalized website with the new guided design system Squarespace blueprint.

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Dana Chivas

Hi, Im Wendy doar. Im an editor with New York Times audio. For me, the magical thing about audio is how it can take you closer to somebody elses life. You feel like you're getting to know somebody that you might never normally meet. And the New York Times audio app is all about bringing those voices to you.

With new stories to explore every day. Download the New York Times audio app@nytimes.com audioapp. You'll need a news subscription to listen.

Ira Glass

This american life and Myra Glass. Today's program. Two ledgers were playing an episode from the new season of serial, which is all about Guantanamo. Dana Chivas picks up the story of Majid Khan, where she left off on the day of his sentencing hearing. The courtroom at Guantanamo is a long, windowless rectangle with six rows of defense tables on the left, mirrored by four rows of prosecution tables on the right.

Dana Chivas

It looks like any other sterile courtroom, except in the back theres a gallery separated by a thick wall of glass and a 42nd audio delay. Thats where the press and the public sit on this day, October 28, 2021. Thats where Madids father and sister are seated. Madid had been allowed to see them earlier that morning for the first time in 19 years. Did anything surprise you in that meeting about either one of them or about how you felt or how they acted?

Majid Khan

Theyre short. I was like, did I get tall? Or theyre shorter, just like this is like, because I thought, you know, they were about my size. This hearing would be the first time they learned the details of Madids imprisonment. Theres no publicly available recording of this hearing, but I do have the transcripts, and ive spoken with several people who were there that day.

Dana Chivas

Madid sits at the front of the courtroom at a defendant's table with four of his attorneys. Court starts at 09:06 a.m. The lawyers spend most of the day selecting the jury. Not a jury of Majids peers, not even civilians in this military court. The jury consists of eight senior officers from across the armed forces, which, if you were once in al Qaeda, tough room.

The sentencing proceedings don't really get going until after five. A prosecutor reads the stipulation of fact to the jury the document that describes in cold legalese all the crimes Madid has admitted to. It's dispassionate but detailed. And it's damning. The story of a young man given asylum by the United States, who turns his back on the country and his family to join the terrorists who attacked us with hopes of attacking us again.

After the prosecutor finishes reading the stipulation of fact, they break for dinner. And then finally, at around 07:40 p.m. Maajid in a black suit and tie his lawyers bought him, steps up to the podium, 39 page statement in hand, and faces the military jury in their dress uniforms. He's nervous. This is the moment he's been thinking about for 18 years.

But it's late. He's tired. His back is killing him. The judge says, and Mister Hahn, you may proceed. Majid proceeds I begin in name of God.

Majid Khan

My name is Majid Khan and for the last 15 years I have been incarcerated at Naval Station, Guantanamo Bay or Gitmo. Mad read some of his statement for. I have a story that I have waited almost two decades to tell. So I want to start by thanking y'all for taking the time to listen to my statement. Today I stand before you meek and humble.

Humble and meek, asking for you to listen to my story with a sensitive and compassionate ear. Madid takes responsibility for his crimes and apologizes to his family. He explains to the jury how he ended up in al Qaeda, how after returning to Baltimore in 2002, his family tried to keep him from going back to Pakistan because they were afraid of what he'd gotten involved in there. How his father hid his travel documents, how he lied to his father to get them back. He's here in court today.

I can see him. I want to tell him Baba, I'm sorry. Im very sorry. And then Madid recounts everything the CIA did to him in detail for 2 hours, hoping that by saying what happened to him personally, he can overcome the apathy to torture, the disgust for al Qaeda because its one thing to read about torture on a page and another to be faced with the person who endured it 20ft away describing it to you. He starts the day he was captured, picking up where the stipulation of fact drops off.

Dana Chivas

He describes how the pakistani authorities took him to a lockup, interrogated him, how there were Americans there too, how the Pakistanis beat him. The first time he was ever beaten. I was frequently hooded and strapped into metal boots. Now these metal boots were, I call them ski metal boots about this high. They would make me stand on those metal boots and they're punching me and beating me up.

Majid Khan

I remember fearing that if I had fell over forward there was no doubt my leg would snap. I was so afraid of what would happen next. I remember an older american, a us interrogator, who would tell me they were not buying my story. You're peeing on my shoes and telling me it's raining.

This man would frequently threaten me, saying like, son, we are going to take care of you. We are going to send you to a place that you cannot imagine. We will take you somewhere and make you talk.

He threatened my family. He threatened to rape my sister. Majid tells the jury about the day his pakistani guard said he was going home, but instead he was taken to an airport and handed over to the CIA. How the Americans cut his clothes off him, gave him an enema, him in a diaper and duct tape, goggles and earmuffs to his head. And then they flew him to another country.

Dana Chivas

He describes the black site he calls the american torture place. The windows of the american torture place were covered in cloth and there was techno music blasting. An interrogator in a black mask asked him questions about al Qaeda plots in the United States and at Heathrow airport. And when he wasnt satisfied with Majid's answers, he counted down on his fingers. From ten at zero, a guard grabbed the chains around Madid's hands, threw them over a wooden beam in the ceiling and hoisted Madid into the air.

Majid Khan

With sudden movement, the guards had hoisted the chin attached to my hands and pulled the chin tight. After a few more pulls, I was hanging by my hands with my shackle, feet barely touching the ground. The interrogators left the room as I screamed in pain and tried to support my weight. After a while, the interrogator Majid tells. The jury they left him hanging like that for an hour or two and then dragged him into a tiled bathroom to a bathtub filled with ice water.

The US interrogator placed me feet first into the ice water and then pushed my body flat to the bottom of the tub. I was still wearing a thin cloth hood. While some USA interrogators held my body under the water, the lead interrogator pushed my head under the water and held me down as I struggled against drowning. As I gasped for air, the interrogator would demand answers to the questions. They repeatedly submerged me when I could get air.

I would beg them to stop and swear to them that I did not know anything. The people I talked to who were in court that day said Majid was stoic as he read his statement. Sometimes he acted out the scene he was describing, like when he talked about being hung from a beam. He put his arms up into the air. He pointed out the scars on his ankles.

Dana Chivas

When he told the jury how his feet swelled so much the ankle cuffs cut into his skin, different details from his statement lodged in different people's heads. For the prosecutor, Colonel Walt Foster, it was hearing how Majid was strung up by his arms. For Majid's attorney, Major Michael Linus, it was the bugs. But I could feel tiny bugs, smaller than mosquitoes, biting me repeatedly until I bled. With my hand shackled, I couldn't swat the bugs or scratch the sores they left.

There's one person from the black sites who Madid refers to specifically in his statement gives him a nickname, a man he calls the torture doctor. In April 2004, Madjid tells the jury he was moved to a different black site, which he refers to as long term CIA prison. He realized nobody was coming to help him. He was on his own. He started a hunger strike to protest.

So the torture doctor and the guards force fed him, sometimes with an iv, sometimes with a tube up the nose and down the throat. I remember the torture doctor right in front of me. He would take the tube and he would sharpen the tube and put a hot sauce, and then he would nose feed me. And then when that didn't break his will, when he continued to hunger strike. After the forcefeeding fell to get me to cooperate, they returned to torture me.

Majid Khan

This part is extremely painful to talk about as a muslim and in front of my parents and my sister. In the month of September 2004, still at long term CIA prison, I was raped by CIA torture doctor while being restrained. They did it in my cell. I was restrained very tightly and secured by at least two guards. The CIA torture doctor was there to administer the insertion, but it was not a medical procedure.

I remember one time in my cell, I asked this torture doctor why he was doing this, and he whispered with viciousness, and he said, quote, you're fucking terrorist. End of quote. I swear to God, I remember exact words. He grabbed me like this, and he says, you are fucking terrorist. This is the hardest part.

They used green garden hoses, regular sized hoses connected to one side to my rectum, another one to the faucet, and they would turn on the water, and I could feel the gush of water going into my rectum. I remember feeling immense pressure in my bowels, a pain I had never felt. The CIA euphemistically called this rectal rehydration. They didn't stop at water. Once, the torture doctor and the guards bound Majid with duct tape and shackles and put two bottles of ensure into his rectum.

Dana Chivas

And then later that same day, they pureed Majids entire lunch, hummus, pasta sauce, nuts and raisins, and inserted all of that into his rectum, too. This was known as rectal feeding. The body cannot absorb nutrients this way, so a more accurate word for it is rape. At least five other CIA prisoners were raped this way, too. According to the Senate report on page 30 of his 39 page statement, Madid stops reading and takes a sip of water.

He tells the jury apologetically that hes nearly done, asks them to bear with him. The judge says, would you like to take a break, Mister Khan? And Majid says, judge, I would like to get it over with. Thanks him for his concern. He picks back up in May of 2006, when things had started to change in CIA custody, ease up a little.

He went on a hunger strike again. But this time the Americans didnt punish him, didnt rape him. He told them he was depressed and they offered him prozac. Majid tells the jury how in September of 2006, he was transferred to Guantanamo, how on the plane ride there, he felt for the first time like he might actually survive. But then he was put in camp seven.

He describes his treatment there, the noises, the cruelty of the guards. Here he goes off script, tells the jury that this is just a, quote, summary of the summary of the summary of the summary, but he has 600 pages of notes about his treatment at Guantanamo, but he doesn't want to bore them. And then he wraps it up. Thanks his attorneys, takes responsibility for his actions and his crimes and apologizes to everyone he's hurt, including his wife Rabia and his daughter Manal, whom he's never met. He apologizes to his father again and to his siblings, apologizes for abandoning them after their mother died.

Majid Khan

I have wanted to tell my story for a very long time. I am so very appreciative for your attention. Thank you for letting me share it with you today. At this point, Madid's been reading for 2 hours nonstop. He says God bless and walks back to his seat.

Dana Chivas

By all accounts of the people ive talked to, the jury listened to Majids statement like statues unmoving. The next day, Colonel Foster, the prosecutor, gives a closing statement for the government. He tries to refocus the trial around the crimes of Majid Khan rather than the crimes of the United States government. He talks about the victims of the Jakarta bombing whove been offstage for most of the hearing and reads their names out loud. Colonel Foster plays down the torture, saying, quote, I would concur that Mister Khan received extremely rough treatment by the individuals that detained him, and it is right for you to consider that conduct.

However, despite what Mister Khan experienced, he is still alive and with us here today, a luxury that the dead and the eleven victims of the JW Marriott hotel bombing do not have. The jury can choose a sentence anywhere from 25 to 40 years. Colonel Foster asked them to sentence him in the upper range of the spectrum. Major Michael Linus, one of Majids defense attorneys, gives a rebuttal. He asks the jury to give Madid 25 years, and then the judge sends them off to deliberate.

Theyre gone for 3 hours. When they come back. The judge asks Majid to stand, and the foreman reads the sentence. Majid Shulkat Khan. This military commission sentences you to be confined for 26 years, zero months, zero days.

Again. Madid doesn't have to serve all this time. His sentence is already set. But 26 years. It's only one year more than the minimum.

It's proof that Majid was right to bet that a jury of Americans would give him a lighter sentence once they heard about the torture.

The judge thanks. The jury reminds them not to talk about their deliberations. And then, just as hes about to excuse them, the foreman indicates he has something else to say. He has a letter for the defense team. He hands the letter to the bailiff, who walks over and gives it to Majids attorney, Major Linus, who leaves it there on the desk, tantalizingly folded in half, while the judge wraps up the session.

Majid Khan

We want it to open right away, right? And everybody's acting like it's not a big deal. Nonchalant. The judge finally says, mister Hahn, I wish you all the best in the future. This court is adjourned.

And then once this was, a judge left the building like a pack of dogs attacked that letter. It's like, let me read it. It's my letter. It's like, let me hold it. The letter is written in tidy handwriting on lined paper.

Dana Chivas

It reads, the panel members listed below recommend clemency in the case of Majid. Shokat Hahn. It's a letter to the so called convening authority. That's the person who's the final arbiter of Madhids case. It's a military justice thing.

I'm not going to explain. It's a letter asking the convening authority to go easy on Madison. It says Majid should get leniency because he was denied due process, because he was a young man when he committed his crimes and is no longer a threat for future extremism. And because he was so badly abused by the United States. This abuse was of no practical value in terms of intelligence or any other tangible benefit to us interests.

Instead, it is a stain on the moral fiber of America. Its signed by seven of the eight jury members, all officers of the United States military, all serving during the global war on terrorism, and who, having compared the two ledgers, rendered their verdict on this era of american history. What Majid did was bad, but what we did to him was punishment enough, I think for lots of people in the military. This conclusion will not come as a surprise. This idea of torturing prisoners isnt some abstract moral debate for them.

Its personal, practical. If they get captured by the enemy, they dont want to be tortured. They dont want other Americans to be tortured. They want that kind of thing to be out of bounds. They need the US to hold the line.

Majid Khan

The clemency letter is framed on my wall in my office. Thats Major Linus, one of Majids defense attorneys. And the original document is in my closet and I still don't know what to do with it. I don't know who you know. Does the National Archives want this original document?

Because it's currently just in my closet. Why didn't you frame the original on your office wall? Why is that the one in the closet? It's not mine. To me it's the public's.

It's a public document. It should be put somewhere where everybody can see it. Its the kind of historical document that could, should end up in a textbook. But it probably wont. It will probably stay in major Linus Closet.

Dana Chivas

I reached out to the CIA for comment on this story, for comment on Majids treatment. In response, a CIA spokesperson sent me a statement, quote, the CIAS detention and interrogation program ended in 2009. The CIA has committed, and remains committed to never again operating such a program of enhanced interrogation techniques. End quote. So many of the players in this story, in all these Guantanamo stories just want to put that place behind them.

The american government certainly wants us to forget about Gitmo, the black sites, the torture, and Majid too. He finally got out of prison in February 2020, 311 months after his sentence officially ended. His attorneys, medim in Belize, helped him set up his new house. Two months later, RbIa and Manal joined him. He helped Manal hang rainbow colored lights around her room.

He spotted her as she put a ladder on a chair on her bed to reach the ceiling. In some photos he and Rabia took shortly after they were reunited, they're both beaming like newlyweds. Majid spent the first 20 years of adult life in prison. Now suddenly, at the age of 44, he's a husband and a father. He has a 20 year old daughter and a new baby.

He's got to learn to raise a kid, find a job, convince the banks to give him a bank account. He doesn't want to be talking about any of this stuff, doesn't want to relive it. He couldn't sleep the week I was in Belize interviewing him. He just wants to move on. I don't give a fuck about history.

Majid Khan

Like, I don't want it to be a part of history. With all due respect, I just want to be forgotten. Who cares who's Marjita? If I die and bury someone with someplace, I will make sure nobody knows where I am. When I die, I just want to make sure only two people come.

My two loved ones. That's it. My daughter and my wife. I'm happy. That's what I prefer.

Dana Chivas

Majid told me the sentencing hearing clemency letter, they were validating in the moment. But rit large, the american public, he doesnt think anyone noticed, and hes probably right. But you know who did notice? The accused masterminds of 911 or their lawyers. Anyway, if Majid got a more lenient sentence because he was tortured, could they?

Next time?

Ira Glass

That'll be next time on cereal and on our show as well. We'll be running one more episode from the Guantanamo series next week.

Majid Khan

Lock and key.

Ira Glass

Season four of Cereal is edited by Julie Snyder with additional editing from Jen Guerra and myself. It's produced by Serial in the New York Times. You can hear the rest of the season, and I recommend it all about Guantanamo. Wherever you get your podcasts. Other people who helped put this season together include Rosina Ali, correct Courier, Sophia Daly, Alessandri Ammagrilla, Mac Miller, Ben Phelan, Carol Rosenberg, Alamein Sumar Nde Chubu, Phoebe Wang, Susan Wessling, and New York Times deputy managing editor Sam Dalnik.

Sean Cole, Mike Kamete, Sarah Koenig, Safiya Riddle, Matt Tierney, and Jessica Weisberg did the work to put this serial episode onto our program. Special thanks to Talia Biochi, Allison Beckman at the center for the Victims of Torture, Nina Lassem, Alvin Melleth, and Tug Wilson. Our website, thisamericanlife.org dot. You can stream our archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free. This american life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the public radio exchange.

Thanks as always to a program's co founder, Mister Tori Malatia. He does not understand why people at the office did not get his Halloween costume last year. He's like, isn't it obvious? A rhinoceros on St. Patrick's Day.

Majid Khan

I was a green horn. I'm Ira Glass. Back next week with more stories of this american life.

Ira Glass

Next week on the podcast of this american life. Most of the people imprisoned at Guantanamo were low level fighters at best. More than 95% were never charged with a crime. But if there was any case at Guantanamo where you think justice would be done, it was the trial for the men accused of orchestrating 911. So more than two decades later, how's it going with that trial answer?

Even that's messed up in some really shocking ways. Next week on the podcast or on your local public radio station.

Dana Chivas

We all have smartphones, and we all know they're pretty amazing, but they also can be amazingly distracting, especially when we're around other people. So us cellular wants us to reset our relationship with our phones by putting down our phones for five. That's right. A company that sells phones wants us to put down our phones and to see what we find. Learn more@uscellular.com.

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829: Two Ledgers

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2: Majid Khan's Background

3: Capture and Torture

4: Legal Proceedings

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