#740: Greg McKeown and Diana Chapman

Tim Ferriss
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Diana Chapman
I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over. A metal endoskeleton hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show where it is my job to sit down with world class performers from every field imaginable to tease out the habits, routines, favorite books and so on that you can apply and test in your own lives. This episode is a two for one, and that's because the podcast recently hit its 10th year anniversary, which is insane to think about, and past 1 billion downloads.

Tim Ferriss
To celebrate, I've curated some of the best of the best, some of my favorites from more than 700 episodes over the last decade. I could not be more excited to give you these super combo episodes, and internally, we've been calling these the super combo episodes because my goal is to encourage you to, yes, enjoy the household names, the super famous folks, but to also introduce you to lesser known people I consider stars. These are people who have transformed my life and I feel like they can do the same for many of you. Perhaps they got lost in a busy news cycle. Perhaps you missed an episode.

Just trust me on this one. We went to great pains to put these pairings together and for the bios of all guests, you can find that and more at Tim blog combo. And now, without further ado, please enjoy and thank you for listening. First up, Greg McKeown, the New York Times bestselling author of Essentialism, the disciplined pursuit of less and effortless make it easier to do what matters most and host of the Greg McKeown podcast. You can find Greg on Twitter.

Greg McKeown
Gregory McKeown, people don't do moderation. Well, I decided to go off sugar a year ago, almost a year ago, New Year's Eve, talking to somebody. I've been thinking about doing it for a while. They've been off sugar for twelve years. And I'm like, okay, if you can do twelve years, I can do a year.

I'm going to make this decision. If I'd gone 95% off sugar. Oh, no, I'm out. Before I begin. Everything's an exception.

Well, that's, you know, that's amazing cake. I got to eat that. I mean, that's, oh, this is a holiday. I've got to eat that. It's the weekend.

I'm going out on a date with my wife. I got it. I've got to eat it. Now she's eating that guy. Everything's an exception.

So I think there's a variety of things in life that it's much, much easier to go 100% than it is to go 95% because what you're doing is you're taking out the decision process. It's done. We are not doing sugar now. I don't have to think every time, and by the way, there's crazy amounts of sugar in this world. I don't have to think about it every time.

The decision's already made. So first, I want to just mention one of the concepts in essentialism that I really appreciated is trying to find the one decision that removes a thousand decisions, such as the elimination of sugar that you mentioned is just one example. I will tell you where I struggle, and I think I'm better than maybe average Joe or Jane at saying no to things. I'm quite good. But one of the great ironies of writing a book called, say, essentialism or the four hour workweek is that if those concepts hit and the books do well, you suddenly have a flood, a torrent of inbound requests and all sorts of new categories of things to contend with.

Tim Ferriss
And I find myself struggling to say no to people who probably land on the spectrum of good acquaintance, to reasonably good friend who ask for help with various things. And there are certain things that I feel very comfortable saying no to. Like the book blurbs, but I have hundreds of requests. Those aren't all from friends, but dozens, certainly for promotion of their books on social it's usually book related because people want their books to sell. Being on the podcast, you name it, I feel like friends who do not fully think of the ramifications of their request, oftentimes when it's last minute, where they wouldn't ever go to the New York Times the day before they have something come out and ask for everything to be reshuffled for their benefit.

That is what ends up happening to me on a fairly regular basis. So I think I allocate too much time to trying to explain myself to those people or placate those people in some way. And I would love to hear your thoughts on best practices or heuristics related to that specifically, because I don't view myself as a people pleaser. But nonetheless, with this particular subset of people, I do find it really challenging. And there are times when people I would like to maintain a good relationship with who come to me last minute for help that I cannot deliver without massively inconveniencing my entire team and reshuffling, get very pissed in a way, or they take it very personally.

And maybe that's okay. I tend to think that it is, and I'm going a little long here, but it's I think a challenge that a lot of people face. What are your thoughts? Well, lets just agree on the problem, first of all, because as a CEO friend of mine once told me, he said, I take every time and resource estimate thats given to me now and I multiply it by PI. So hes saying, I thought he was exaggerating at first, but hes saying people so massively underestimate everything.

Greg McKeown
There is another heuristic for this, right? It's called the planning fallacy. The planning fallacy is saying we as humans underestimate almost all the time how long things will take. And we do that even with things we have done ourselves before. Driving from point a to point b takes us 15 minutes.

But if we're in the middle of writing an email, we will convince ourselves we can do it in five minutes. This time we'll get all green lights. Everything's going to work out somehow. It'll be done in five minutes. Of course, it doesn't take that long.

It takes 15 minutes and we're late for the meeting, but we want to con ourselves into it. What you're describing, I think, has two pieces to it. The first is this piece, and the second is the relationship impact of how to handle this. But what you're describing is a problem where somebody is really underestimating what their request is. They're saying in their head, they're going, this is a two minute favor, Tim.

It's not hard. All you have to do is put out a tweet. How hard can it be? Or whatever. And so in their head, their ask is very small, but the reality is that their ask is much bigger.

Tim Ferriss
They also don't think about the reputational risk or anything like that, of endorsing something that I don't have time to read, for instance. Well, that's exactly so. So I think that there is something around this again, before we get to the relationship impact of maybe you already did it, but of actually creating one page where you've got the email bounce back document, having a page that says, look, this is the real cost, the total cost of ownership of me saying yes to this. And maybe there's even, once it's created, it could be used in a variety of ways. One is reactively right when the request comes in.

Greg McKeown
Okay, I need you to read this first. I need to understand. But maybe there's a proactive approach, which is like, look, I'm just putting this out there. This is what this actually costs. Because even what you just said, reputational costs, people aren't thinking about that, they're just thinking about getting their thing achieved.

And so being able to try and calculate all of that, the total cost of ownership, I mean, that's what you have to do with the planning fallacy, is we have to consider the total cost so that we don't start projects that we don't complete. In fact, there's a New York Times just ran a piece about exactly this that I'm aware of because it is quoting essentialism in trying to address the problem. But of all these projects we start, we don't finish. This is just a version of that problem. They maybe are being thoughtless.

Maybe they don't think they're being thoughtless. They just think it's not a big deal for you, and they don't understand the full range of impact. So I think writing this out, almost like it's a recipe, this is the cost. And in that, I think in the helpful side of it, you could say, so in the future, if you want to be considered, this is the process you would need to go through. So again, what's happening is that you've got to help other people's problems be their problem, right?

And there's a story that I came across with a book that I really like on this principle, which is, I think it's a true story. I can't quite remember now, but it's doctor cloud. He's talking about meeting with a couple, a husband and wife parents, and they come to see him and they say, they say, look, you know, our son, we have so many problems with our son. He's on drugs, he's drinking all the time. He's living back at home with us now.

I mean, he's just not got a job, everything, it's just such a mess for us. It's just so concerned. And he says, okay, well, I understand. Where is he, though? You have an appointment here to deal with this.

Where is your son? They said, well, you know, he doesn't really see that he has a problem. And doctor Plaza says, well, I think he's right. And the shock to that, what do you mean that he's right? Or even just described all the problems?

He said, no, he says, he says, listen, he says if you look outside your window in the morning and your sprinkler head on your lawn is faulty and it's spraying on your neighbor's grass, and your neighbor's grass is green and your grass is dying, who has the problem? You've got the problem, right? Because your grass is dying, your neighbor doesn't have a problem. Their grass is fine. Your son doesn't have a problem because he's comfortable at home with you.

He has to do whatever he wants. He's looked after. Life is fine. He doesn't have a problem. You have a problem.

And your job now is to help your son to have a problem. Let your son have his problem. You've been well intended, but you got it all wrong. You've got to let him own it. If he doesn't have a problem, if everything's taken care of for him, he can't move forward, he can't get better.

And so now, obviously it's a bit strong to use that example with the example that you led this conversation with, but it is a similar principle, is that there has to be a boundary and there has to be an education of going. You've made this problem my problem right now. Let me just lay this out so that you can own the problem so in the future we can do this perhaps in a better way. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. I was told something not too terribly long ago, maybe two years ago, which was along the lines of a line you could use with such people, although youd probably have to dress it up a little bit, which is your lack of planning does not constitute my emergency, which I suppose in theory makes a lot of sense, but it sometimes falls by the wayside in practice due to fear of social repercussions, which we can get to in a second.

Tim Ferriss
I mean, I've had some awful experiences and I don't want to turn this into a 100% Tim Ferriss therapy session, but just so people know, for those people out there who may be like, oh yeah, that Tim Ferriss, he never agreed to x or whatever it is, I've had instances where journalists from mainstream publications have reached out for book blurbs or help with their own projects. I've very politely declined because I've been unable to help them in the capacity they required. And they've gone on to write like hit pieces or hatchet pieces or slam pieces about me out of spite. And it's like that kind of shit happens. So I think I'm a little once bitten, twice shy from a lot of those experiences.

But ultimately, does any of that prevent me from doing the essential project that we discussed? Not really. That right there is, of course, is exactly the .1 can say, let's take the opposite argument for a moment and I'll just play non essentialist to the conversation, which is, yes, Tim, you're guessing it wrong. You're thinking about yourself too much. And every single request that someone from media or any friend or any acquaintance, that anything that they want from you, you should be saying yes because, you know, you got helped by lots of people.

Greg McKeown
Therefore you're under total obligation to do it for everybody else. And you got this wrong. So is that argument right, Tim? Is it really right? It could be right.

Is it right? I don't think it's right. And even if it were right, it's not sustainable. Right? Even if.

Yeah, but if something, if something's not sustainable, that's like foundationally clear that it can't be. Right. Because, like, by definition it's something that's not sustainable will not continue. It cannot continue. Right.

So what you just said, which is awesome, is like, it's correct other than it's impossible. Yeah. Right. Right. But you've just done for us a favor, which is that you've helped us to understand the basic foundational error with non essentialism.

Like the problem with non essentialism is that it's the only problem, happens to be a lie. It's just got that inconvenience associated with it. You can't actually do everything. Can you imagine how many books were being sent to Oprah at the height of the Oprah show and everything just insane. The number of warehouses full had to.

Be warehouses full are going that way. And she had to get, somehow, we assume she appeared to get to a level of peace with going, look, there's no way I can even touch any of that stuff. I've got to be truer to this voice within me of clarity about what my mission is and my essential mission and not all of this other stuff. It's not being unhelpful to the world for you to say no to something that's less important is not being unhelpful or selfish in the world that I don't buy that. Your obligation is to the highest point of contribution you can make.

But what I think happens a lot is that people get caught up in the idea that, can I do this thing? It's like they pretend there's nothing else going on in their life. The request comes in and they go, can I do this? Well, yes, I can do this. I know how to do this.

I can make this happen. And that's not life. That's non essentialist junk. That's just rubbish. The question is, if I do this thing, what doesn't get done?

What else gets pushed out? Now, I'm not saying don't be helpful to people that come requesting things. There can be absolutely ways of helping people. I want to help people, but if it's at the cost of something that's actually more important, that makes a higher contribution, we have an obligation not to do it. There's one more piece here which is important, which is that you don't want to hurt these relationships.

And that's where the concern really comes from. So the question is, how can you deal with this in a way that minimizes the damage to you through some media outlet stuff, doing some hit piece or help people to understand the context behind it? And I think that still comes back to, at least for yourself, writing this all out. You know, this is what I am trying to do and why it matters. I mean, in a way, it's having the conversation we've just had, but written out so that it can be expressed again and again and again.

The why behind this answer, the why is the thing that we miss out on. So let's in fact move to step three. So step one was what is essential. Step two is what is non essential. And step three is how do you create a system that makes executing what's essential as effortless as possible?

It's a perfect way to get there at this point, because having this written out document, I mean, how you'll use it is, I'm not sure yet about that in my own head, but if you have it clearly written out, this is what I'm doing. This is why, this is the cost of disrupting that. This is what it does. This is who will lose out if I don't stay focused on this. Now.

All of that becomes like a communication core for yourself, a place to pivot to when the request comes in. And you, oh, maybe I can change everything today to make that possible. And you go, hold on, let's go back to the document. My assistant was away for a little while, a couple of weeks, and the amount of damage I managed to do in those couple of weeks was ridiculous. The number of things I managed to commit to.

I think she came back, actually, she was gone for a month. I'm remembering now it's for her honeymoon. And she comes back. I was very positive. I wasn't saying, oh, I've messed everything up.

I said, let me tell you all the things that happened in the month you've gone. And it was just kind of a little silence at the end of it all, because she's like, she didn't say it, but this is what's in the silence. It's like, what's wrong with you, how are you thinking that you can take on all of those projects and all of those ideas? Like you aren't thinking fully about the cost of doing all those things? And she was dead right.

And what grew out of that is we came up with three rules of things that I would and wouldn't do, and I'll give, one of the rules was no personalization. I don't do any personalization. So if I'm doing keynotes, workshops, whatever, I'll listen, I'll understand what the company or the client at the conference needs. But I'm not going to redo, rethink, rechange. I'm not changing the slides, I'm not changing the, you know, the subtle things you can do in the moment.

But I'm not redoing stuff, because if you personalize everything, as I had a want to do, it's like you're rewriting a book every time. I mean, you have to rethink everything as that was one rule, and we had two other rules, and those are so helpful. Are you willing to share the other two rules? I should know what they are, right? If I say those three rules, and they were really useful to me.

Tim Ferriss
If they come up, they come up. We can also wait for them to surface. Yeah. So actually, one was don't over correct based on a negative feedback, and that's a little more vulnerable to share that one. But I think everybody suffers with that, bets.

Greg McKeown
That's why, you know, which is most persons most universal. So we do an event, do a conference, gets good feedback. One of the people, you know in the comments says x. And I think, jesus. Absolutely right.

That is a valid criticism. Let's change it. Let's redo how we're doing this to address that concern. It's the same sort of thing. It's overreacting to it.

And frankly, when you overreact to this kind of feedback, you really cause a problem for other people giving feedback. And I, in hindsight, can see how that's been in my life. Right. Somebody is trying to be helpful. They're trying to be honest, they're giving the feedback, and I'm multiplying the effect of it.

So that was number two. And I think number three might have been something like, it was like either no new projects, like beyond what we'd identified. Like, we've already identified a couple of really big things I want to go after. It was like, no new projects outside of that. It might have been specifically no workshop business, which is, there's always a demand for it with essentialism.

There's always been interest in it. I always feel an obligation because, one, there's a need, people are interested, and two, just, I think, yeah, there's a full business here, and it could easily be or have been successful business. And those things have keep pulling me into it. And I just, whenever I start working on it, I'm like, been at a supermarket, you see a kid on the floor not throwing a tantrum. They're just lying on the floor like, legs spread out, arms spread out.

They're just like, they have no energy to even get up off the floor. This is how much passion they feel for being in the supermarket on this day. They're just like, nothing here is interesting. Not one part of me wants to be getting up and doing this. That's how I feel in that business.

It's just not what it is, not what I'm supposed to be doing. And my poor assistant has had hear me say that in one way or another so many times, okay, we should do. I know I should do this. Okay, let's do it. We could make it happen.

And finally she's just like, look, there's no part of you that wants to do this. Why are you doing this? And so we managed. I think those are the three rules we got there. Could you perhaps elaborate on what the personal quarterly offsite is?

It's creating space for you to actually think long term about what really matters in the greater scheme of things. I mean, it's the same as any executive team. They have a quarterly offsite, an annual offsite. Why do they do it? Because they know if they don't, they're going to get buried in reacting to approximate issues instead of seeing strategically where they want to be headed and what trade offs they need to make in order to get there.

And it's just the same for the individual level. My wife and I started doing quarterly off sites two or three years ago. In fact, one of the things I did to try and construct a system to make sure we followed through is I did it where we had a few people come together, and I was sort of leading the process. But underneath it, one of the important intents of it was so that Anna and I could actually have a full day once every quarter away from everything else, and to think about the long term goals and out of that process for us. What are you doing in that process?

You're saying, okay, what's happened over the last big picture? You can say, okay, what's happened in my life? What's the long term perspective here. Where am I? Where have I been?

What's been going on? So you're trying to get a clear view of your life, what's been going on with it, and then you say, okay, going forward, long term perspective, what would I like to be achieving? What feels important. Again, it's not just success. It's not just goal setting.

You can set the wrong goals. It's what's essential to me, what it feels like, my mission to pursue. And I remember in that very first official session that we did, Anna, she was going through the process, had identified a couple of things that were really important, and I could tell they were. They had been within her, but they just sort of came to a surface. One of them was a.

I don't know, it might sound funny to people, but. But it was like horses. Horses, right. That's a weird thing to say, isn't it? Horses?

That's not what you expect me to say, she said, I just had this vision of having a place with horses, and it's not necessarily even that we would own the horses. It wasn't even necessarily that. And we don't have any horse background. It's not like horse people, nothing like that. But it was a sense of if we were to achieve what that means, our children would grow up in a certain kind of environment.

It was like a symbol of a certain type of childhood. And our children were at the time, were sort of in the golden years, which means the years before they're driving and after they're out of diapers. And so it's like a magical period, because you can do things. You can make memories together. You can do it.

And we weren't living in a place at the time. We were in the middle of Silicon Valley, which is terrific in lots of ways, but it's not. You're not going to end up with horses, right? You have to think differently. And that single insight in that quarterly off site shifted a whole sense of intent.

And we realized, if we want to do this while our children are still in this golden years, we're going to have to move sooner rather than later to be able to achieve this dream. Otherwise, we're going to achieve it after at least the eldest is out of the house, and then what is the point? And so it was an insight, a strategic insight that has had profound influence on, you know, it's a one decision that makes a thousand. There's a whole series of things we had to do to put in process, to be prepared to organize it, to find such a place and so on. And it took a while to do it, but it took a couple of years, maybe, maybe as much as that.

Now we live in a community that you're required to have space for horses. You don't have to have them. You have to have space for them. And that single criteria, again, makes a lot of other influences change. Right?

You're going to be around a lot of nature. You're going to be even the kind of people in some ways that you're around a certain value system that they care about and all those kinds of things. And so that's sort of a personal example of why to hold personal quarterly offsites. It shifts the whole direction you're going in. It tilts and bends your narrative as you go forward.

Tim Ferriss
Do you have any recommendations for other format best practices or any best practices for personal offsites? Is it an afternoon? Is it a day? Is it two days? Is it in your living room?

Is it off site? Okay. Et cetera. I think. Here's what I think.

Greg McKeown
I think it's off site. It's in nature or thereabouts. It's somewhere that's quiet, uninterrupted. I know of some people, I've never done this, but I know of someone who has a second phone. And their second phone is like one of these little credit card sized phones, and only two people in the world that have the number to this phone.

And so when they go, it means they can be reached for emergency, but that's it. And so they are just gone so that they can have an uninterrupted space, which is very hard to have these days. So you want to be in an uninterrupted environment. You want to not have text and email and all of that available. I recommend you either do it on your own or maybe with one other person, you know, a design partner, that you can really go through the process.

I think that the longer the perspective is, the better. The one I was referring to, we actually started prior to our life. So we started great grandparents, in fact, great grandparents, parents, your own life, and then going forward to the end of your life, to your kids, grandkids, great grandchildren, or if you don't have children, it's just the people that you'd influence generations from now. And it's that kind of huge vision, that kind of level of perspective that helps to draw up within you an unexpected insight, something that you already know but somehow is being buried because you're thinking about life in just sort of reactive ways. The whole idea is to create space to be able to discern that voice.

Maybe we'll have lots of names for it, right? But we'll just the voice, your own conscience, your own sense of direction. And it's to be able to listen to that so that you can discern again between all these good things, all these different tools and so on. And really what you came here to do. And that's the point of it.

Tim Ferriss
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And now Diana Chapman, co founder of the conscious leadership group and co author of the 15 commitments of conscious leadership. Find Diana at Conscious is Diana, welcome to the show. So nice to see you. Thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here.

So I thought I would just establish some bona fides right off the bat. And then we're going to do a little chronological shuffling. So first I want to read a quote from the team portion of the website. So under your namecious is there's a quote from Dustin Moskovitz. Now, for those who don't know who Dustin is, Dustin is co founder of Asana.

Prior to that, he was co founder of Facebook in 2011. He was, at least at the time, the youngest self made billionaire in the history of the planet. As far as I know. And here's the quote. Quote.

Working with Diana has dramatically changed the way I react to challenges and stress in my life, preserving my energy to direct towards more constructive pursuits. As a coach, she has a gift for guiding me through introspection on the stories I create about events and people in a structured way that inevitably leads to perspective shifts. We can't control the fact that bad things are going to happen, but how we react to those events is what really matters and that we can learn to control. When we have the right attitude and resourcing, adversity becomes strictly an opportunity to learn and grow. Okay, so this is the kind of quote that a lot of folks would kill for, maybe die for, certainly amputate a few fingers for before we dig into all sorts of juicy bits that we could pull out of that quote as a jumping off point.

I want to go back to 1997, so I did not expect to find this. I didn't expect to find anything in particular, but this is what I found. This is on critio.com dot. In 1997, Diana Chapman was a stay at home mom teaching scrapbooking in Ann Arbor, Michigan. As mainstream a life as they come, end quote.

She says, I didn't know any of this. So, number one, you can't believe everything you read on the Internet. So is this true? And then assuming some aspect of it is true, could you tell us about the gift from your brother in law around that time? Yeah.

Diana Chapman
So it is true. I was the quintessential stay at home mom, all things. Being with my kids, being part of the school, you know, head of the PTA, all that good stuff. And I was, though, very interested in personal development, spirituality, human consciousness. That was always in the background.

But I was very devoted to my children. I was teaching scrapbooking to other moms. I mean, I was so cute. I was really cute. And my brother in law was a top CEO in the country, and he was very, very devoted to personal development.

And he was a connoisseur of finding great coaches. And I think the truth was that he and my sister in law were concerned about my marriage and wondered if we were going to make it. And so they recommended that we go out to California and take a training with Gaye and Kathleen Hendricks of the Hendricks Institute. And so actually, they gave us five grand. He said, you can do whatever you want with the money, but I'm going to recommend you go out to California.

So I joyfully could not wait to go. I didn't know anything about them, but he said, they're the best. So off we went. And it was a profoundly life changing week. And I thought to myself, why am I just learning these tools?

And I'm going to devote the rest of my life to making sure people get access to them. And that's what I've done. What did you feel or experience, or what changes did you observe that led you to have such a strong reaction? First of all, I learned about this thing called the drama triangle, which many people out there may have heard about, but I realized my whole life is running around on this drama triangle. And the drama triangle was created by Stephen Cartman back in the seventies, and he defined ways in which human beings get caught in victimhood that create reactivity.

And I realized I'm on the triangle most of the time, and there is a big cost to me and my people when I'm on the drama triangle. And so that was the wake up call for me. And then I just spent every day since looking for all the tools I can for how to keep myself out of that triangle as much as possible. Since you mentioned it, let's just jump right into the drama triangle. Could you give us an overview of what it is and how you might use it?

Okay, so Cartman says many of us got trained to live in a state of victimhood, and there are three unique flavors of victimhood in the drama triangle. We call them bases. So the first base is the pure victim. And the pure victim. You know, it's so hard here.

Tim Ferriss
I'm trying. I don't know, it's just any kind of a. Oh, help. You know, it's got this very disempowered feeling, and it's somehow like they've got the power somebody else has it, not me. And I'm very at the effect of things.

Diana Chapman
So I could be at the effect of my bank account, at the effect of this email that just came in, at the effect of the traffic, at the effect of the new policy on going back to work, at the effect of COVID All those things are forms of being a victim. Then the next role in the drama triangle is the villain, and the villain's job is to blame. So I can blame me. God, I should have known that, or I should have been more prepared, or any should have over here on me, or I'm not smart enough, or I can't count on myself. That's all.

Villaining toward myself, or we can villain toward another. You know, you. You're the reason why I'm not having as much fun as I could be having, or we could be a villain to a group of people, which is very popular in our culture. So we all know who's screwing it up for the rest of us. You know, it's that group over there, and everybody's pointing to particular groups who are the bad guys.

So Billen's very popular because it gets our adrenaline really kicking in. I think it's actually in the terms of service on Twitter that you have to play that role when you use the service. Anyway, side note, please. Right, right. Who's screwing it up?

Who's wrong? Yeah. You don't know. You're wrong. I'm right.

And so the last role in the drama triangle is the hero. It's also called the reliever or the rescuer. And the hero's job is to seek temporary relief. So, oh, my God, I had such a hard day to day at work. Let me come home.

I'm going to drink my alcohol or do my gaming or get lost in Netflix or whatever I'm going to do to give myself some temporary relief. And it works, but I got to do it again tomorrow because tomorrow I'm going to come home potentially burn out again, and then I'm going to have to do the same pattern. So heroine is temporary relief over and over again so I can hero myself. I could hero another, you know, oh, you look like you're struggling at work, and let me take over some of your work that you're doing. I could do that from a place of real presence.

But when I'm in hero doing it, I'm actually creating some co dependence where I keep needing you to not be able to handle your work so I can keep helping, and then I'll resent you over time, and then we can hero them. You know, there's lots of philanthropies, especially in the past. They're getting better at this now where we just throw a bunch of money at a population, and then next year they have all the same issues and they need more money, and nothing ever really changes. So the key thing is temporary relief. So we all know the story about you can give the man a fish every night, or you could teach him to fish for himself.

So the hero gives the man the fish night after night after night. And if you're off the drama triangle, you shift to a place where you see people as empowered, and the hero asks good questions to help people get more effective around them. So my next question, I want to share an observation from my rereading of the book. And then the next question, just to plant the seed is, I'm going to ask you why it's called the drama triangle. What drama actually means here, but in my reread, which I'm in the middle of right now, of the 15 commitments of conscious leadership, which was recommended to me by Dustin, and I think it was also recommended in my last book and tribe of mentors by Dustin.

Tim Ferriss
And there's a section that I needed to reread, which was related to the drama triangle. And it pointed out that the villain could take the form of someone in a meeting who, to try to resolve conflict, or maybe not resolve, to try to minimize conflict, always takes the blame. Like, eventually, at the end of the meeting, they just say, you know what? It's my fault. I should have done this, this, this, this and this.

And it's easy, at least for me, to conflate radical responsibility with overly blaming myself for everything. And I don't actually have a great way to approach navigating, discerning those two for me, if that makes any sense. So we could try to unpack that, or we could jump to why it's called the drama triangle, but I'll let you choose the direction. Well, let me do both. So the reason why it's called the drama triangle is because the whole triangle is set up for a na na na.

Diana Chapman
It's I'm right, you're wrong, you're to blame, or I'm to blame. It's not asking everybody to really take 100% responsibility for how they're co creating experiences. So if I'm in the drama triangle, the villain, if I'm taking on, I'm more responsible, what happens is I'll say, oh, I'm here at the meeting, you guys, and look, it's my fault. I'll take some of your responsibility and take it all on me. And so there is a place to say, hey, I have a part in how I've co created this.

Let me tell you my part. That would be me taking my hundred percent. I would also know that everybody else has a part to play, too, so I'm not taking on their responsibility as well. That's the difference between a villain and somebody who's just simply acknowledging I have a role to play here. Got it.

Tim Ferriss
Thank you. We were chatting before we started recording, and you and I have spoken quite a few times before. We've met before, spent time together, and you asked me why I invited you on to the podcast. And there were a number of answers I gave. One of them was related to kinesthetic awareness or what our mutual friend and your business partner, Jim Detmer, have called, at least in his notes, to me for this conversation.

This may be your turn, for all I know, BQ, so, like IQ, EQ, but body intelligence. And I feel like you're very well calibrated for this. And when we spoke maybe a year and a half ago, two years ago, I was working on this no book, you might recall. And then as I kept working on it and kept working on it, I kept coming up with great reasons to say no to the entire book, which was very meta, and I ended up stopping. But we spoke a lot about the whole body.

Yes. And I would love to maybe use that as a wedge to start the conversation, because I found this so incredibly helpful when I am certainly prone to over intellectualizing everything into some extremely complicated matrix or spreadsheet or God knows what. So could you lead us into that in whatever way makes sense? Sure. The idea is that we have these different centers of intelligence, so we have our head, our heart, our gut, and iqeqbq are some of the ways we might be describing those things these days.

Diana Chapman
So body intelligence is a recognition that I have an instinctual awareness that is known by my sensations, known by how the body feels, and that there's a lot actually there that if we start to drop into the body and pay attention, it's got a lot of guidance for us, as does our emotions, as does our intellectual. And so I do have a ton of access to my body intelligence. I think it's what I lead with in my own getting clarity about which directions to go in my life, and I put a lot of attention on it, so it's very palpable to me. My body screams often, you know, no, don't do that. Even though my intellect might have an understanding of why.

Tim Ferriss
Let's, if you wouldn't mind, walk people through how they might understand and use the whole body. Yes. Because for me, when something is screaming, I'm decent at paying attention, but it's not always a scream. Sometimes. Oftentimes, it is a little more nuanced.

So could you walk people through the whole body? Yes. And what the flight checklist looks like? Well, I could have people, if we wanted to go through an experience of starting to feel what their whole body. Yes.

Diana Chapman
And nose feels like. Great. Yeah, let's do that. Let's do that. Should we do that?

It's very experiential, so it'll take about ten minutes, and I'll have people, if they're listening, I'd recommend they close their eyes. Wonderful. Does that work? We have all the time in the world. This isn't morning television.

Okay, so the idea is that your body knows when there's a no, when there's a yes, and when there's a what I'm going to call a subtle no. And we say anything other than a whole body yes is a no. And to your point, it's easy to hear those screaming nos, but not so easy to hear the subtle no. For example, someone contacted our organization the other day, and he wanted to talk. And it wasn't clear to me whether he was trying to sell us something or whether he genuinely had clients that he wanted to connect us with.

And even in my, I had suspicions that it wasn't as clean as he was suggesting. And I asked for clarification. And his clarification still, I couldn't really tell, but my body didn't know. I felt this flat feeling in my body when I thought about having the call. And unfortunately, my head said, well, maybe you're not sure, so let's have the call.

And indeed, it was a sales call, and it was not a good use of my time. And I quickly hung up. That was a time in which I skipped over my no, because it was very subtle. And my intellect started to get worried, like, what if I'm missing something? And, you know, what if you don't know?

So I use this all the time, and I'm still learning, as I did just last week, to pay attention to the intelligences that are outside of just my intellect. And so for you all, if you want to learn more about this, what I'd like you to do is close your eyes, and I'd like you to bring to mind an experience from the past that was deeply valuable to you. It was something that was nurturing. It was something you would gratefully repeat that scene again. It could be a time when you were celebrated.

It could be a time when you were in a highly creative state that made something valuable. It could be a time when you were, in nature, feeling deeply centered. So I'd like you to go back into that scene as best you can and see the images of that scene and hear the sounds.

And as you're in that scene, I want you to start to pay attention to the body and see if you can notice just simply how the body is vibrating right now.

When you imagine yourself in that scene, seeing those images, hearing the sounds, how does your body vibrate? Is there a particular direction in which energy is flowing through the body?

Now, some of you might go. Diane, I'm not feeling anything here. That's fine. Just imagine if you were feeling something. Let it be okay.

That it might feel like. Pretend just for now. Is there a certain temperature that you notice in the body? For some people, they might feel very specific sensations. It might feel like shapes inside the body.

And some people might be auditory and hear tones or see visuals in their mind's eye.

What you're doing here is getting a map of what does a whole body. Yes. Feel like.

Just strolling around inside of the body, feeling what you're feeling. No right or wrong answers here. And everybody's so unique. We all have our own different ways. We feel it for me, my body gets warm.

There's an uprising of energy. It flows up for me.

There's a push in the flow for me, but yours will be what it is. And so then I'd like you to take one last, like a memory. Take a memory shot of this so you can remember what this feels like. And then I'd like you to shake it off and let it go. And then I want you to think of a scene in the past that you don't want to repeat.

And I don't recommend finding something traumatizing. Find something that you really didn't feel like was a good use of your time, didn't serve you. You don't want to repeat it ever again, or you prefer not to.

If you can, bring that image to mind and again, see the visuals of that memory and hear the sounds.

And I want you to notice what happens now in the body.

Is there a different way the body is vibrating? How is the direction of energy flowing or not flowing in this version? Is there a difference in temperature?

Any other significant sensations or shapes you feel in the inner on the body? And again, tones in the ears or visuals in your mind's eye may also be included.

And you're getting a map for what? No, this is a big no. I don't want. I don't want this. I don't think this is going to serve me.

Just mapping the territory in the body for what does this feel like?

And take one last picture of that and shake that one off. And then we've got one more to do. And this is the subtle. No, this is similar to what I was just describing earlier of taking a meeting. You know, it didn't kill me to take the meeting.

It didn't hurt. Lasted ten minutes and I got off the phone, but I don't. It wasn't a yes, it wasn't an alive experience. For me. So this is called a subtle no.

So I want you to think back. Everybody's got in the last two to four weeks, something that's happened in which it was a eh, wasn't bad, wasn't good, eh, see if you can come back and see that scene in your mind's eye and hear those sounds.

And you're going to check and see what's a subtle no feel like for you.

How do you experience that scene? What do you notice in the body? How does it vibrate here? How does energy flow or not flow? Is there a difference in temperature?

What parts of the body light up? Sensations and tones or visuals as well? Trying on here and again, if you don't notice much, that's okay. Just imagine if you did notice. What would you notice?

And this is your map for what a subtle no feels like.

And you want to remember this feeling so that the next time somebody says, hey, you want to go out to lunch? Or could you meet me to talk about ABC, that you, if you feel this likely, it's an invitation for you to try no.

So you can shake that one off and then we'll bring our attention back to the ongoing conversation. How was that for you, Tim? It was a great exercise. It's been a long time since I've done an inventory like that. And I took notes.

Tim Ferriss
I took some notes and I'll share a few things just in case this helps other people. I noticed that all three had different breathing patterns. The breathing was very different cadence and feeling nice. So that seemed to be a very clear variable across the three. And just give an example of the clear no.

The strong no was frontal head tension, chest tightness, feeling hot, none of which exists in the yes state as an example. And then I thought of this subtle no, which I don't think I've spent much time on before, which is hilarious because, of course, it's probably where I need to spend the most time, is assessing that. And I thought of this experience recently. It was the first example that came to mind because I really try not to say yes to things, but sometimes you say yes to things that seem like a yes and then you get into the experience and it's not a yes. The bill of lading was deceptive.

And I ended up at this dinner that was kind of play fancy. I didn't expect it to be play fancy, but it was an expensive dinner and it just was not enjoyable. The food wasn't great and I didn't want to be there. And I was thinking of this experience and I noticed that in contrast to the strong yes and the strong no, both of which have a certain degree of focus, I, in the subtle no, have a very. I wrote down shifty energy and fidgety, just feeling unsettled.

And that then, I suppose, becomes your landmark off in the distance where you can orient yourself with respect to decision making or continuing or not continuing with something. So I found this very. And I should also just mention that this has historically been a. What would we call it? Development opportunity, aka weakness growth opportunity slash massive Achilles heel.

This body awareness. I think we could spend a lot of time on it. We don't need to, but I learned to dissociate very effectively really early on in my life for a lot of reasons. And so it's getting reacquainted with feeling has been a long process. And thank you for that.

I found that very helpful. Could you help us connect this to how people would use this inventory? So I'd recommend starting out using it in really simple ways. So start with looking at a menu. And as you're looking at the menu, just notice, like, does that fidgety come in when you look at the sandwich versus this sandwich and see if you can start to see what yes feels like, or you're driving back home and you've got a couple of different routes to take home.

Diana Chapman
Try on. Okay, I'm going to go this way and notice what happens in the body versus I go this way. So you're just going to make this a practice for things that don't have a lot of meaning. It's not a big deal. And then, as you.

You can also do it with time. Let's say you're thinking about gathering up with a group of friends, and they say, what time? Try on, like, okay, well, what if we met at five, and just notice what happens in the body when I try five, and then 530 and six and 630. And just see if you've got, like, a place where your body starts to hum, like, oh, wow, 630. That's where it really hit.

And then let's choose 630. So that's a way to do it. And then what you'll notice is, at least for me, I really liked the results I kept creating in these simpler options, and then I just kept using it more and more. So with more important decisions. And then now the biggest decisions.

This is something I choose regularly, and I've learned to trust it so that I had a client who I thought was in trouble in another country, and I contacted the family and said, I think you need to go help this person. And they're like, you want us to leave and go check on this family member? And I said my body was shaking with clarity about it. My head was like, I don't know. I'm not.

I couldn't tell you for sure, but my body knew, and they went. And it turned out it was a really could have been a life saving moment that they went. And intellectually, I had some data, but my body was the one that really guided me to be aggressive and getting that person's support. Yeah, this has been really impactful for me, and it seems so simple, and on some levels it is. But very often it's these simple, valuable things that we neglect, perhaps because we think they are simplistic, but that's not the same thing.

Tim Ferriss
I think that it's common also for people who are very head centered, intellect focused, who have been rewarded for that, to just end up being a hammer looking for nails, basically. I had a lot of trouble identifying what yes felt like, and I still do, if I'm being honest. There are times when it's super obvious, when I'm just like, the yes in all caps and marquee lights and neon yes. Okay, fine. Then I.

When it bashes me over the head with, like, awesomeness, I know what that feels like. But if it's in some cases, a meeting or an investment or a person or a dinner with certain people, it's hard for me to identify what a full body yes feels like. But I know what it doesn't feel like. If I go from, like, head to chest to gut, if there's any tension in one of those three, it's a no. Good.

Diana Chapman
Then. Then I would say your yes is a void of those sensations. So let that be what it is. Let yourself go. That is a whole body yes.

My whole body yes is a void of those no sensations. And that's enough. Don't. You don't need to make it any more than that. Yeah, yeah, that's true.

And it makes sense to me that you might not have the whole light up. You know, some people do have this zing. You know, that they feel is a yes, but some people don't. And so just trust your own version of it, so you'll just know. Oh, my yes is just.

Is without the reactive patterns I notice in my body when the no is here. Let's use that as a segue in the fact that I don't have the zing. I'm not sure that the fact I don't have this zing, and I do have it when it's, again, sort of an avalanche of spectacular goodness. But otherwise, my yes. Response can be very muted.

Tim Ferriss
I do think that I have trained myself sometimes in the name of stoicism, I think often in the hope to protect myself from disappointment, to not celebrate. And I do think premature celebration of huge business deals and stuff can bite you in the ass. And that's a good idea, to temper expectations. At the same time, there's a very real cost to training yourself not to celebrate. And one of the notes that Jim, as in Jim Detmer, for people who are listening, sent to me included, I asked him what your superpowers were, and he gave me a number of them.

And one was play as a way to live life, increase learnings, deepen relationships, and lead organizations. Diana is the best of anyone I have ever met at living a life of play and inviting others to play along. So for those who don't know Jim. Jim would not say something like this lightly. So could you please.

This is something that I want to cultivate in myself, and I really am not sure of how to go about it. So I would love to explore this, and you can take that anywhere you would like. When you were talking earlier about not sure you know about that? Yes. You think maybe you'd like to have more of that?

Diana Chapman
One thing I would say is, I think yeses are very. They're about igniting our creative energy, and our creative energy is very connected to our sexual energy. And so, for me, yes. Feels very sexual. I feel turned on.

And so I think there are a lot of people who put that away for good reasons along the way. And so one of the things that I think is important is for people to start coming back and tuning back into letting themselves be a sexual being, letting themselves have sensations that feel igniting. And that doesn't have to mean that you want to go have sex or doing. They're very different things. I know a lot of people are having sex without sexual feelings, so they're separate.

But there's a. I want to invite people to feel how good you can feel in the body. How do you do that? I know that sounds silly, but it's like, how do you, Foster, allow that? I'm not consciously.

Tim Ferriss
I don't have any catholic guilt or anything that leads me to consciously throttle that. I don't have a voice in my head that says, that's not okay. I feel like it's more. If it exists in me, it's more subconscious. Well, just in general, just see if you can find one place in the body that feels pleasurable.

Diana Chapman
It doesn't have to necessarily be named sexual, but just where's the pleasure in the body? And it could just be a tiny little spot, or you could feel something. Like, for me right now, there's like a tickle in my chest. I feel some bubbly kind of champagne bubbles coming up through my spine. Feels like it's coming up through, floating out at the top of my head.

I feel some warmth in my feet. It's pleasurable. And so just starting to put your attention on pleasure itself and then keep attending to it, keep giving your attention to it, and then it starts spreading around, and then all of a sudden, there's this really wonderful, like, woohoo quality that's happening in the body. And then for me, that's part of then what ignites the play. There's so much aliveness, joy, creative possibilities, and then it's like, okay, what are we going to do with this?

How much fun could we have? It's just sort of the water I swim in. Has it always been that way? Is this Diana out of the box? Or is it something that either you've trained more in yourself or that you've seen people train effectively, right, in terms of turning the tide?

Tim Ferriss
Because I'm sure you have a lot of clients I have to imagine, who are doing therapy, coaching, medicine, work, et cetera. And they're like, God, I just need more play. I just need more play. And it's like, okay, well, now what? Right, well, I might say let's play with the fact that you need more play.

Diana Chapman
Like, can we make that bigger? Oh, I need more play. Oh, God, you're like, I tend to say, let's exaggerate everything because that's one of the easiest, quickest forms of play, is exaggerate where you're at. So make wherever you're at bigger. And so if I can't play, it's so hard for me to play, I go, okay, well, let's play with that.

Make that bigger. Until all of a sudden now you're kind of giggling because it seems funny, and then you just played. So exaggeration is one of my favorite ways. So when it, when I am coaching people and they're in some place that they say they don't want to be in, I say, well, then let's make it bigger wherever you're at. And then it always pops them through.

Tim Ferriss
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In parentheses kick you in the ass and love in parentheses support understanding, empathy, and as a result, she's a black belt and practicing candor. So this is something that has always struck me in our interactions. This is not going to be a perfect segue, but I have to bring this up because who knows if what I wrote for the no book will ever see the light of day. I hope it will, maybe in a blog post or an article at some point. But could you please describe the voicemail message that you had some years ago?

Do you know the one I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah. It was something like, hi, you reached Diana. I may or may not respond to this call and I'm gonna just listen to if I feel called, I will, and if I don't, I won't. And it was, you know, just very much of I'm gonna listen in and decide whether I'll call you back and when I'll call you back.

Diana Chapman
And so it was just basically saying, don't have any expectations. So your candor has really jumped out as this sort of defining characteristic of Diana for me. So thats sort of the end of this bullet thats in front of me. But how should people think of loving pressure? Because I find myself flip flopping often between two polar extremes.

Tim Ferriss
This is especially noticeable in my intimate relationships, where either Im like the hard ass Olympic coach, Im kind of like the coach in the Disney movie Miracle, if anyone's seen that in ice hockey, or I am, from my perspective, extremely permissive and overly supportive to the point of subjugating my own feelings. It's not entirely dishonest, but I'm kind of disavowing part of me to be really, really supportive. And this is especially true with my girlfriend, where there are times to, I've learned, I think this is important. There are times for me to listen, to listen for her to feel heard, and then there are times for me to listen, to help with problem solving. And it's very good for me to clarify which she wants in advance.

But how do you think about loving pressure and bringing that to relationships? Well, again, I think in order to do that well, you have to be connected to your head, your heart, and your gut. That's certainly been really clear to me that I have to be fully present to know then what's the balance of challenge and nurturing. So, for example, I had a guy who called me recently who was wanting to know if we could work together. And he was very, very depressed.

Diana Chapman
And I was asking him questions and he was really stuck. And he had a lot of critical thoughts about himself, and he couldn't get motivated to do anything. And I asked him about therapy. He said, yeah, I've been in therapy for a year. And I said, okay, you need to fire your therapist.

I said, because you got a lot of stories in your head that you're believing and nobody's challenging you. And the guy stood up like he sat up really straight. And I felt him pop out of some haze. He was in the challenger, so woke something in him. Story I always make up about that guy is he was just getting so nurtured, but nobody was bringing the challenge that could help him break out of this state he was in.

And so, you know, I just knew that because I was thoughtful of from my own presence here of what do I need to say to this guy that he can hear? I care about him. But I also say, cut it out, because how you're organizing yourself here isn't going to take you to this new place you want to go. And he was really grateful, and he said, thank you. I really hear you, that I need to question these beliefs I'm holding.

So that's my practice over and over again, is being able to listen to my body. I was with another conversation the other day, and people were talking about their opinions about the world, and I just said, hey, I notice I'm contracting. My body's contracting as I hear you guys talking. And that's all I had to say. It was just, I'm just going to report what's happening over here.

And it was a form of challenge to them. And they went, wow, you know, you're right. We're really in some fear based thinking here. So my body helps. Just sometimes I just report.

I notice I'm bored or I notice I'm withdrawing, or I notice I'm getting confused, or I notice I'm contracting. Those are ways I might just express a little pressure by just revealing what's here and not making it mean anything, but just saying, here's what's happening. Maybe this is about something I don't know about yet, but let me just tell you what's happening. I don't think we do that enough with each other. So let me ask a question about that example.

Tim Ferriss
So there are some folks talking about whatever they were talking about and some kind of fear based, or what they recognized as fear based thinking in conversation. And you say, I'm noticing that I'm feeling contracted. I just want to let you guys know, were these people? And they respond. They responded constructively.

Diana Chapman
These are people I know well, and we know we play a similar game. In which you've agreed to this type of interaction. Yes. They would not. I would not do this with just anybody.

Tim Ferriss
Okay, so what would you do if you're in a mixed group or with people who have not agreed or made the commitments? And we could talk more about the 15 commitments and commitments in general. But is there a way that you can give voice to that with people who perhaps don't have the same playbook in front of them? Sure. I might say something like, so what I hear is you believe you're right, that XYZ is occurring, and that could be true.

Diana Chapman
And I'm just wondering if you're open to another possibility that maybe it's not as true as you think. So I might just gently bring a little challenger of asking them to consider that there might be another option. That's another form of how we challenge each other is questioning the stories we tell, because we're all just telling stories all the time. Or I might say, oh, I considered that perspective. I've been holding this perspective, and I might share my perspective, and it just depends on how well or not well.

I know the crowd that would have me be more thoughtful in how I. Might respond when you're working with a client. And I'm coming back to the initial quote that I read from Dustin. So she has a gift as a coach. She meaning you, as a gift for guiding me through introspection on the stories I create about events and people in a structured way that inevitably leads to perspective shifts.

Tim Ferriss
Could you walk us through how you might do that with someone? For instance, this guy was depressed, and he says, you know what? You're right. My therapist sucks. I'm being handled with kid gloves.

But that's making me remain a kid. So I could use, like, an occasional slap in the face from someone who's very supportive and challenging. And you say, okay, great point. Then what do you do with those stories in this person? I'm a huge fan of Byron Katie, and I really love her work.

Diana Chapman
And I do the work with myself, and I do the work with my clients, and I say, okay, is it true? Is it true, this thing you believe? Can you absolutely know it's true? And, you know, I'm wise enough now to know I can't absolutely know anything? And then what's it like when you do really believe you're right, and I help people find there's always some suffering, and then, what would it be like if you just couldn't believe it?

And people find, oh, that's nice. That feels good. And then, okay, great. Could we just go look at the opposite? You can keep your righteous stories, but can we also ask you to hold the opposites as at least as true so that the mind can get to neutral and then something else gets to.

Tim Ferriss
Happen, and you're doing that with turnarounds. Of various types all the time. I'm constantly asking clients to turn around. Let's pick a hypothetical or real example just so people can get a flavor of this. So, Byron Cady, the work I also have found really, really helpful in a number of cases.

And she's an unusual and powerful woman, to put it mildly. So there are times when people will interact. And I remember meeting her for the first time, and I was like, I don't even know if I can do what she does. But when you actually work with the worksheets and people can find this online, a lot of resources are available for free online from Byron. Katie, could you walk through, say, a belief, which I think she defines as a thought we take to be true, or something along those lines, an example of a belief, and then what, how you would do turnarounds on that belief and walk somebody through that?

Diana Chapman
Well, let's see if we can find something real for you, if you're willing to, like, see if we can find something that's irritated you lately, something where it's kind of like, you know, maybe somebody did something that bugged you or you're upset about some policy out in the world or any place where you notice you get a little triggered. It's more of like a paradox of choice issue than anything else for me. Let me see if not, I can find one. I always have judgment, so I can find something over here. Well, I'll tell you, my relationship will actually use one that relates to the client you mentioned.

Tim Ferriss
So I have had extended depressive episodes the majority of my life. And so I have a lot of fear around slipping into depressive episodes and have viewed that whether it's now, whether it's a week from now, whether it's a year, whether it's five years from now, as inevitable and scary and dangerous. So let's use that somehow. Okay. And it sounds like the judgment might be something like I shouldn't slip into depression or depressive episodes.

Diana Chapman
Is that right? Yeah. Or exactly. I shouldn't. It's dangerous, etcetera.

So which one is it? Is I shouldn't or is it dangerous? Because it sounds like that one kind of lit up for you. It's dangerous if I go into a depressive episode. Yeah, I think, yeah, that's.

Sure. Is that it? That is, yeah. Okay. It's dangerous if you go into a depressive episode.

Is that true? I always struggle with the first two questions. The other ones I have an easier time with. Is it true? I think it's true.

Tim Ferriss
Yes, I do. I mean, most of the time when I have my judgments, I do think they're true in the beginning, but then I go, okay, Tim, can you really, truly, I mean, absolutely know it's true. Like you'd put your life on the line that if you have a depressive, that it's dangerous if you go into a depressive episode. Well, you know, it's kind of tragically comic that you would use that phrasing. So here's what I can say.

I can say for sure that it has been dangerous because I almost killed myself in college. Does that automatically mean that I will be at the precipice in that same way in the future? No, I can't say that with 100% certainty. Yes, you can't say that with 100% certainty. So we're just trying to get to.

Diana Chapman
I can't know for sure. I mean, I didn't kill myself in the end where you're here, right. And we don't know if you would want to kill yourself in the future. So we're just going, I can't absolutely know for sure it's true. So the first question is, is it true?

Second question is, can I absolutely know for sure that it's true? You're saying no. Third question is, what's it like when you do believe that thought? So when you sit here and go, whoa, it's going to be dangerous if I have a depressive episode, what's it like for you when you believe that to be true? It's terrifying.

Tim Ferriss
It's awful. Yeah. And anytime I feel even a twinkling of a possibility that I might be slipping into a melancholy state, like, I went to a jazz performance recently and they were playing very minor key music, and I felt myself getting very uncomfortable. And actually, that was the example I used in my own mind when we were. It was the second example that came to my mind when I was thinking of the whole body.

No. Recently, even though there were aspects of the performance I really enjoyed. But as soon as I started feeling myself slip into a sad, what I would call depressive state, there was a level of panic. Sure. So that's who I am.

Diana Chapman
Yeah. When I believe that to be true, I'm hyper vigilant and panic prone. Yeah. Makes sense. I mean, I feel it right now.

If I believed the story that if I get into a depressive state, it's gonna be dangerous, I feel panicky. I can feel that hyper vigilance. I can feel like, ah, like really anxious. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. So that's your experience.

So let's just imagine that I have this superpower and your brain is a computer. And that thought it's dangerous to go into a depressive state is actually like a computer program. And I have the ability to delete that program out of the computer of your brain. It's gone. So right now, I just did it.

It's gone. So we're just going to pretend for a couple of minutes here. And if you just couldn't believe that anymore, what's it like? Oh, I think I would have, almost certainly would have much more calm, much more presence. Right.

Tim Ferriss
I wouldn't be future tripping and stuck in anxiety. I would be much more joyful. I would have more space for other people because I wouldn't be stuck on the me, me show. Yeah. Yeah.

Diana Chapman
And I like to even get yourself even more present, like sit here. And sometimes I even encourage people to close their eyes. But let yourself drop in right here in this conversation, and you're now a man sitting here who can't find that thought. It's a little more meditative this way, using your breath. Keep opening.

What's it like to be here, to be you, to be in this moment without the thought?

There's no thought that's replaced it. You're just here without that one. Relaxed, optimistic, energized. Yeah. Yeah.

And my experience is the more I drop in, the more I get to experience more states of presence. Especially like when you go into that relax, you could even drop in even a little more and it keeps opening up. And these states can keep opening to more and more states of well being. Could I do a quick sidebar question, which is. So I think a lot of people listening and even me right now, I'm starting to get a little secondary anxiety by telling myself the story.

Tim Ferriss
Well, wait a second. If it is actually dangerous, I don't want to just go into a place of denial where I take off my seatbelt while I'm driving 80 miles an hour. Psychically, that sounds like a bad idea. Right? Good.

Diana Chapman
I don't want you to stop thinking. I suppose I just wanted to get your reiteration that this is a, the objective is not to invalidate the belief. The objective is to do an exercise embracing other alternatives. And the objective is to understand that at the moment at least, a depressive state isn't what's creating the anxiety for you. It's the belief that it's going to be dangerous that creates the anxiety.

Right. That's what we're going after here is we're going after the recognition that your depressive state. We actually don't know how you will or will not be. But right now the danger you're creating is in your own head by believing you're right about your story. And so we're helping you question that so that you can now be aware and present for the possibility that you might be going into a depressive state in the future.

And how can you do your best to mitigate that, ride it if you do have it happen so that you're not at the effect of it. Thank you. All right, so what's the next step? So then the next step is we don't want you to get rid of it. Could be dangerous because, I don't know, maybe it could, but we want to help you come back to recognizing that the opposite is at least is true, that it doesn't have to be dangerous.

So we're going to have you go, it's not dangerous. Going into a depressive state is at least is true. Can you give me a real example, one that not just your head but your heart and your body, like there's something that your whole system goes, ah, okay, I can see how it's true that it doesn't have to be dangerous. If I go into a depressive state, can you give me real evidence of how that could be at least as true? So I'm doing two things here.

Tim Ferriss
I am doing the exercise with you and I'm also sort of providing an overlay for people listening. Nice. And please correct me if I'm getting any of this wrong, but what we're doing is we're taking the belief as a statement and we're starting to play with that sentence and the words in that sentence and how it's constructed. Right. Yeah.

Diana Chapman
We're specifically going after the judgment so that your mind judges it's going to be dangerous if I go into a depressive state. It's going to be dangerous. I'm right about how dangerous it's going to be. So we just want to go, can we just look at how the opposite's true is it's not going to be dangerous if you go into a depressive state. So the evidence.

Tim Ferriss
So now we're coming up with evidence. For how is that statement it won't be dangerous at least as true. So I'll start with the present tense that it isn't dangerous because it won't be dangerous. It's harder for me, but I will say the fact of the matter is I'm here and I've had dozens of depressive episodes. Yeah.

And I'm still here. So if the danger is suicide, at least to this point, it's abundantly clear that that has not happened. So. Yeah. Yeah.

Diana Chapman
And I want you to really get that, not just in your head, but I want you to get that in your heart and your body because I feel you get it intellectually. Yeah. But I really want you to drop down and go, survey says I've been in multiple depressive states and I'm here. It hasn't been dangerous in that I haven't killed myself, if that's what you're calling danger. Yeah, that would be it.

Yeah. And so we want you to get that down, especially in the body, like your breath, go, oh, God, really? Look and feel that. Yeah. Okay.

Many times, depressive states, here I am. Okay. Not dangerous. Give me another example of how it's true. It's not dangerous if I go into a depressive state.

Tim Ferriss
I'm having trouble, honestly. I'm wondering if you can help me brainstorm here. Yeah. Yeah. So I imagine people come around you.

Diana Chapman
People help you. Yeah, yeah. I need to get better at actually reaching out, but yes. When I do have supportive people around me, and I'm very lucky to have people who love me who would respond at the drop of a dime. Yeah.

So I want you to feel that. Feel how? Oh, my goodness. I am surrounded by so many people and experts who could help me and have in the past, it was hard to be dangerous if there's all these other folks around me who got my back. Yeah, yeah.

Tim Ferriss
I believe that for sure. And so I can see it again in your head, like, intellectually, part of what I want is for you to come back down in the body and really feel that it's a somatic experience that I'm wanting you to get. How do you, I know this is like the remedial class with me, but how do you help people to do that? Because it's challenging for me. Just imagine one of the last times that you were in one.

Diana Chapman
See all the people who came around you? Really? There were people there. And I want you to just let your body feel that. Like, feel.

Oh, yeah. There were people who came and asked questions and gave guidance and offered support and listened and let your body go, let your breath open up and feel from the body the direct experience of support of non dangerous that you did have in the past. That wasn't just intellectual. It was a direct experience of the body. Yeah.

It's like, oh, my goodness, there was so much support, so much interconnectedness.

Breathe with that. Feel that all the way down through the toes.

Tim Ferriss
Okay, I got it. Yeah. Nice. Thank you. Yeah.

Diana Chapman
It's a whole different ballgame when you include the body. Yeah, yeah. The intellectual side is just like a glancing blow. I mean, it's not, it doesn't fully land well. Yeah.

And you're actually not present here to have the experience of non dangerous, because if you're not allowing yourself to come down into the body, you're not fully here to access the intelligence that's giving you a direct experience of not dangerous. Right. So you go, okay, great. And then we go, okay, so it's not dangerous, as at least is true. We had two examples so far, so we're going to go for one more.

And now you might even get more clarity of how it's not dangerous. If you're listening to your head and your heart and your body, how is it at least as true, true that going into a depressive state does not have to be dangerous? It doesn't have to be. I mean, sometimes the episodes are very short. I don't know if that's.

Tim Ferriss
I mean, that's maybe not as overarching a line item as the last two that we did. Okay, let's say it's long, because since long is the one that scares you. So let's say it's a long one. How is the long one not dangerous? I mean, this is something I've struggled with my whole life, so I'm not.

I could use an alley oop with maybe another. Okay. I'm just trying it on myself because I got to go in there. I'm going to try on being depressed and go in there with you so I can feel I'm not hurting myself. I can feel I'm surrounded by support another way.

Diana Chapman
It's not dangerous. Could be. What I'm noticing is like, there's an awareness in you that knows you're depressed. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. So there's a witness who's there watching.

There's a part that's never in danger who's watching the whole thing that parts. That parts not experiencing danger. Yeah, the witness. The witness is there. Yeah.

So you could go, oh, when I'm in the depressive state and I'm in my witness, it's not dangerous for that one.

Tim Ferriss
Yeah, let me, let me sit with that for a second. Yeah.

It'S challenging for me. I'm partway there. It's like it's partially landing since it's also the witness who panics, it's. Well, actually, I don't think if you're the witness can't panic if you're in witness. If you're truly in witness.

Diana Chapman
The one who's just a watcher without a judgment, one who just says, like, I have a witness that's like, oh, check you out, Diana, you're scaring yourself about being on the Tim Ferriss show. You know, that was, I literally said that to myself this morning. Oh, check you out. Now my witness is just watching, thinking I'm adorable that I'm scared and doesn't have an opinion about it. Just watches.

Oh, there you are. I just wonder if you have a relationship with that part of yourself that just can watch and observe and welcome whatever's happening without judgment. There are times when I do that's. That is a relationship that I want to continue and need to continue to cultivate. Yeah, great.

Tim Ferriss
But I think that's a good third, sort of third leg of the stool on the. Yeah. So now we go, okay, we want you to keep. It's dangerous. Sure.

Diana Chapman
It's dangerous to get in depressive states. That can be true, but it's also at least as true that it's not dangerous. And we can see examples of how that's at least as true. So what we're trying to get the mind to do is to see, okay, we'll give you both, they both can be true and therefore they're both not true. So then what?

Then we get to be with what's underneath all the judgment. There's just, what do you notice if you get to say they're both true? They're both not true. Then what do you notice when you imagine that you might go into a depressive state at some point? Well, if I'm able to hold both of those equally, then the likelihood of panic and anxiety about possible panic.

Tim Ferriss
It's like panic about panic. Right. Right. Is going to be less if I can hold those two things. Things, yeah.

Diana Chapman
I call it walking the line. It's like a walk a line right down the center. Where I'm holding both is equally true and I value both sides. Like, sure. Because I think I don't want to be stupid and I want to dismiss something and be naive, but I want to be honoring that.

Hey, I'm not right. Meaning righteous about this story I have over here. Because if I am, I'm going to cause myself some kind of reactivity. So now I just sit with, okay, depressive episode may happen. And then ideally, if I can walk that line, then all I'm going to do is learn.

I'm going to be able to stay present to what's happening and learn along the way what needs to happen. Yeah, thank you. And then I get to start to welcome, I might, you know, my experiences. I have a lot more trust if I just am willing to welcome whatever's going to happen. Yeah.

With a preference. I have a preference not to go in a depressive state for sure. But if a depressive state is what happens, okay, we'll learn. Yeah. There's a.

Tim Ferriss
I don't want to take us too far off track, but a friend of mine actually just showed me a book which has been recommended a number of times. I have not read it, so I can't vouch for it, but called feeding your demons. But I at least like the title, and it's on this, this exact subject. Yeah, because you feed the demon. Every time you believe you're right, that it's going to be dangerous, you feed the demon.

Diana Chapman
And so then you're just going to keep amping up the anxiety, and then, of course, you have that much anxiety over time, you're going to burn out, you're going to get depressed because the body's going to get intelligent and go, I can't do. I can't run this anxiety all the time. Let's get depressed and just chill out for a while. Yeah. To connect this also for people with the process.

Tim Ferriss
So thank you, Diana, for taking me through that. And also these turnarounds, these rephrasings with the objective of, or at least the step of gathering evidence for each of these turnarounds could be applied. And please correct me if I'm wrong, if we took, let's just say, a belief that's causing you pain is, who knows? My sister is selfish. Right.

So it could be my sister is selfish. Maybe there's something with your parents, and the sister's not pulling the weight, and you're pissed off, and so your belief. Is my sister's selfish, and I might change it to my sister shouldn't be selfish. Oh, yeah, that's great. That's great.

So my sister shouldn't be selfish. And then you could have, you know, my sister should be selfish. You could have. I should be selfish. I should be selfish.

I should be selfish. Exactly. And at the very least, I mean, in my experience, when I am triggered and I'm just so dysregulated that the idea of problem solving or coming up with good strategies is just a joke, because I'm so emotionally dysregulated that doing this type of exercise, at the very least, just turns down the volume on the system reactivity, and then I can just breathe. So I found it very helpful as a pattern interrupt. Yes.

Diana Chapman
And to your point, this isn't a good tool to use if you are really dysregulated in the moment. I would recommend first using breath and movement to relax the nervous system, to get yourself into more calm first. Because if you just try to use this as your first thing, you might likely use it as a weapon and just intellectualize it all. That'll just give you some temporary relief over and over again. So I do recommend first getting yourself, use some movement, use some breath, calm the nervous system.

We say, you know, handle your blood and brain chemistry first, and then this is a good tool. Yeah, for me it's just go lift some heavy stuff, go to the gym, just stop. Well, I also, you know, if I were working with you, I'd have you say I shouldn't have a depressive state. I should have a depressive state. And I'd really go argue for why you should and do that so that you get it in your body, not just into your head.

But I should have a depressive state again because that's the other thing I hear is there's an arguing with it would be bad, or I shouldn't have it, or I'm trying to avoid it instead of. Well, if it happens, it happens. Yeah, and it should happen instead of it shouldn't is at least is true. But that would be a good one to go play with because I think that would also help you be more open to life happening the way it does through you. For sure.

Tim Ferriss
For sure. Thank you. I would like to, if you're open to it, shift a little bit to relationships. And I want to ask you specifically about your partnership with Matt. So here's one of your superpowers, as listed from Mister Jim.

Creating and sustaining a wonderful intimate partnership with Matt, her husband and lover since they were teenagers. Have her talk about the risks she and they were willing to take to keep the relationship alive and vital, growing and intimate. If you are game to talk about that, I would be very interested. Yeah. To hear more.

Diana Chapman
Well, it's a challenge. It's both a great gift to be with a partner since you were young, get to grow up together. There's a lot of shared memories and shared friends, and there's a sweetness that it started out with you get to keep. And there's also a great challenge of the fact that we are different people who evolve and change. And so several times, at least three key times in our relationship, we've been willing to let it all go.

And we've basically killed it off. Just said the relationship as it was, is done. Now let's just check and see what is the relationship that wants to happen moving forward. Maybe it's just friends, co parents, maybe it's lovers staying married. What is it?

And so we have a lot of courage, both of us, to be willing to let go of what's not working trust that the right form of the relationship will reveal itself. And it just so happens that it continues to be us married. And I think we play around often. Sometimes we'll get up in the morning, I'll say something like, hey, you want to be married today? And he'll say, oh, well, what would that mean?

What kind of a husband do I need to be? And we'll giggle and play around with, well, you know, how about this? And this? And then we choose. And that is, for me, we are always choosing over and over again, and we always are willing to kind of, to the point of using the work with Byron Katie, of, I'm willing to open to the possibility that not being married is just as okay as being married.

And what that has created is an incredibly vital, creative, ever evolving, passionate marriage in which we're freed up to keep exploring new ways of being together. And I am really proud of my relationship. I think it's one of the greatest things I've ever done, is the marriage that I have. We get a lot of feedback that it's an inspiring marriage to a lot of people who look to it. And I do think it comes with the courage to say no.

Tim Ferriss
You mentioned, at least, I think you said three times that you've had this type of conversation. I would like to zoom in on the first conversation. Were you both already prepared and trained to initiate that type of conversation? Did one side initiate the, hey, let's decide if we want to remain as is or if we want to take one of these other forms. I'm just wondering for people who are listening who have never had one of these conversations, maybe they've been at the breaking point, but they've never had this conversation.

Diana Chapman
I initiated it. It wasn't Matt's idea. I said, hey, this isn't working for me, the way we're in relationship, and there's a different kind of a man I want to be with than how you are, and I want another possibility. And so I didn't know how to do all this. I was just toddling around, trying to figure this out.

And, yeah, I said, I don't want to do it this way anymore. And so I thought that might mean that we needed to be separated and that we needed to end the marriage. And I was willing to. We actually got some support from counselors about telling our kids that we were going to divorce, because that's the only direction it seemed like we were going to go. And then I had this great advice from a friend who said, okay, Diana, I love you.

Both. If you think divorce is what needs to happen, that's great. But I hear you complaining that there's a certain man you want him to be that he's not. And she said, who is the woman you would need to be to call forward that man? And my stomach dropped and I thought, I don't want to.

I don't know about that. What? And I realized, oh, I would need to be a different woman. So we said, let's kill off this old marriage and let's see if we can create a new one. And I'm going to keep asking myself, who do I need to be to call forward the man I want to be with?

And about six months later, I was with the man I wanted to be with. And I remember saying to him, you really changed. And he said, no, you really changed. And the truth is, we both really changed. But I was really grateful for that first conversation of being willing to let it go and then getting the feedback of, hey, if you're the creator of who's showing up over there, who do you need to be?

And for many months, I felt like I was going to throw up 24/7 learning to be a much more vulnerable, needy woman who called forward the man who could protect and lead in a way that I hadn't been willing to be in the past. Thank you for sharing all this, by the way, and very courageous and vulnerable. And how did you figure out who you needed to be? Who that woman was, to call forth the version of your husband or the man who you wanted to be with? Did you have help?

Tim Ferriss
Was it obvious once you sat with it, in terms of the changes that needed to be made on your side or the things you needed to cultivate or drop, how did you arrive at the answers? At first, I didn't know. I just knew I was really scared when I asked the question. I believe that fear is when we're present, is an intelligence that says, something needs to get learned. Something needs to get learned.

Diana Chapman
So when I had that fear, I thought, oh, wow, something needs to get learned. I don't know, something here. And so that was my first clue that her question was powerful is the fear that arose in me. And then I just kept asking the fear, what needs to be learned? I just kept being really broad in that curiosity.

I got into a state of wonder. I wonder who I would need to be to call forward the man I most want to be with. I just kept asking that I wonder. And I let it be okay, that I didn't have to know because I didn't know. I've been, you know, with them for a long time, and I didn't know.

So I had to be willing to listen and learn from something greater than my own experience so far. And so it was in that level of curiosity that I just found my way. And it was baby steps, you know, a little bit here, a little bit there. And we've had several versions of that often or not often, but the three versions were all some version of me. Something needs to get learned for the next evolution here of this relationship.

Tim Ferriss
Do you have recommended resources or practices that couples can seek out or embrace so that they are better prepared if they get to these decision points or just overall with respect to nurturing a healthy, co created relationship? Are there any books, any particular practices that you would highlight for folks? Matt and I studied with gay and Katie Hendricks for years at the Hendricks Institute. They did a lot of relationship work. They still do a bit of it, but I learned so many tools there on how to get off the drama triangle.

Diana Chapman
I learned about Personas and about how I get caught in these Personas that then unconsciously require the Persona of my partner to show up in a certain way that I complain about. And I learned about how to unwind those or shift them when I wanted to. I learned about the importance of feeling my feelings. I learned about really questioning my stories. I learned about polarity and how important it is to honor polarity that shows up in couples and making sure that I honored both sides of the polarity equally.

For example, a lot of couples argue about money, and almost always there's one that we call the gas and one who's the break and somebody who's more free flowing with money and somebody who's more controlling about money. And that's a, can we honor these polarities and can we see the value in both of them? Because usually I was the one who wanted to spend the money, and my husband wanted to hold on to the money, and we would get into a battle about, you know, you're keeping me from having joy in my life because you're so stingy about money, and he'd say, you're going to make us all broke because you're just so unconscious about spending it. And so honoring that, those two sides of the player are actually allies that are here to create just the right balance, to take care of ourselves and have fun. And so those are all different skill sets.

There's so many different tools. And I would say that our book, the 15 commitments of conscious leadership, we wrote it for leaders. But really, it could be a perfect guidebook for couples if you just apply couple examples in there, because that's what really created the beautiful relationship that I have, are those commitments, and those all have tools and skills that are associated with them. Could you give us a few examples of some of these commitments? And of course, I would recommend people read the book.

Tim Ferriss
I think it's very valuable. But could you give us a handful of examples of what these commitments. We got a lot of these from gay and Katie Hendricks. They were the ones, they wrote the first two commitments, word for word. And the first two commitments, the first one is all around.

Diana Chapman
I commit to take radical responsibility for the results in my life, and that's a cornerstone commitment. And, you know, that looks like some guy who I was coaching the other day called me up and said, my CEO is not giving me the feedback I need to grow as a leader leader. And so I had him teach me the class. How do you create the CEO not giving you the feedback you want? He's like, what?

I'm not creating that. I'm not the effect of it. He's not giving it to me. I said, teach me the class. So he actually thought for a moment and said, well, value the CEO's time more than your time.

Don't reschedule when the CEO breaks your one on one meetings. Don't ask directly for the feedback you want. And he started to giggle and realized, oh, I'm the creator of not getting the feedback I want. That's radical responsibility. So, people, often we say, the thing you're complaining about is often the thing you're committed to creating.

And if you can own that, that's radical. And then the second commitment is all around letting go of wanting to be right. And what we mean by that is the defending yourself righteously that keeps you from learning and growing. Those are the two cornerstone commitments, one and two. I think we even say in the book, like, you could stop right here and just practice these for the rest of your life.

But then there's the commitment to really feel feelings. And specifically what I noticed. And we talked about this, you and I, a little bit when you were thinking about writing this no book was how much we're trying to control each other, feeling feelings. So, like, I don't want to say no, because I don't want you to have a feeling over there. And I really think I'm right.

You shouldn't have them, and I don't want you to have a feeling because then maybe I'll have a feeling see how much of our drama in the workplace and at home is coming from suppressing feelings in ourselves and each other. Candor is a commitment to be able to say what's going on rather than conceal it, which then causes me to have to start to withdraw. And ending gossip is another commitment really being impeccable around agreements so that I do what I say I'm going to do another commitment. Those first six, that's what we focus a lot in the business world. When we come in and work with teams, we have them work on those six commitments to help secure the identity and relax drama.

And then once that's done, then we have things like, let's look at appreciation. The commitment to appreciate, the commitment to play and rest, the commitment to live in our zones of genius. And then the commitments get even deeper into being the source of approval, control, and security, rather than trying to source it outside of yourself, which is probably one of the most difficult commitments of all. And also the commitment of experiencing that you already have enough, which most people also struggle with, especially, at least in the business world. I rarely ever come across anybody who has enough time.

And then they go on from there to being able to create a win for all solution, which is one of my great joys, to work with a team where there's a lot of different needs, and it seems like they can't come up with a solution where they all win and help helping them do that, and finally be the resolution to that which you see missing in the world. So if they're not listening, be a better listener. If they're not taking care of things, take care of things. Do you still use or recommend people use mind jogger? I read that, at least for a period of time.

Tim Ferriss
You used an app, I believe it was mind jogger, that would ask you multiple times a day, Diana, in this now moment, are you above the line or below the line? I still use it. You do? All right. I still use it.

Diana Chapman
I use it every day. And I ask that basic question, where are you? Are you above the line? Meaning, are you in a state of trust, or are you below the line in a state of threat? So I ask that I have it seven times randomly per day.

It pops on my screen, and I pause and look and check. For me, it's like lifting weights every day. So that's one. And then I use other questions that I rotate around like one I'm really liking right now. Is.

Is this exquisite, Diana? Is this moment exquisite? And then it gives me a pause to think about how could this be more exquisite. What does that mean to you? Exquisite is whole body?

Yes. To me, you know, is this a whole body? Yes. Is this, ah. Is this.

Greg McKeown
Yes. I'm in my zone. I feel fully alive. I'm doing what I most want to be doing. I'm on purpose.

Tim Ferriss
What other prompts do you have, or do any others come to mind? Oh, yeah. I have a question for each of the commitments. So I rotate them around like, what are you feeling right now? So if I need to keep checking with my feeling states, another one would be, what do you appreciate about somebody around you right now?

Diana Chapman
And then I'll use that as an opportunity to speak that out loud because I'm really a big fan of lots and lots of appreciation. Another one. Do I have enough time right now? I use that one. Are you experiencing enough time right now as a way to pause and go, oh, good, that's so glad I asked myself that question because I can feel I'm in a scarcity of time and let me stop and pause and get back into the present moment where there's always enough.

Tim Ferriss
If you could email those questions prompts that you have for each commitment, I would love to. I just downloaded mind jogger this morning. I would love to start playing with those if you're open to it. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Maybe we could put them in the show notes as well, and that way people can find them for themselves. I have to say, you know, I really think you are a master of prompts and questions and we don't have to go through it at length. I was actually going to read every single bullet. I'm not going to do that because it'll take a bit of time. But you have a piece on LinkedIn.

It's an article called how to assess self awareness in a hiring interview. Now, people might hear that and say, why the hell are you bringing that up? It sounds so niche, it sounds so specific. It's only going to apply to 3% of your listenership, but it's a great example of questions and prompts for uncommon insight. I was very impressed with the questions.

I'll give just a few examples. Describe a time when you were tempted to blame someone else for something, but instead resolved it by owning part of the issue. What percentage of agreements do you currently keep with the people you live and work with? What causes you to break agreements the most? How do you approach broken agreements?

I mean, these are outstanding questions, not just, by the way, for hiring people, but I found these questions and prompts to be outstanding. So I will also link to those in the show notes, and people will be able to find that article. Well, my clients were asking me, hey, how do we interview? If we want people who want to come and be in a part of a culture that doesn't have as much drama, what should we be asking that would make sure that we knew they were a good fit for the culture we're creating here? And so that was what caused me to put those questions together, and I used them myself.

Diana Chapman
You know, we were just. We just did a couple of big hires at the conscious leadership group, and we almost exclusively focused on self awareness and people's ability to have candor, take responsibility, keep their agreements as one of the primary things we were looking at because, you know, they were already very successful candidates, so we knew they were. They'd had a great pedigree already. So we wanted to make sure they were a good culture fit because we're really committed to no or very little drama in our workplace. Diana, we could go for hours and hours and hours.

Tim Ferriss
Might just have to do around two sometime. I'd love to. Because I'm curious, quite frankly, to know what books, outside of the 15 commitments of conscious leadership, have you gifted the most to other people or gifted a lot? Doesn't have to be the most, but what books have you gifted a fair amount to people? The big Leap by gay Hendricks is probably the book I've gifted the most and the one I've recommended the most of any other book.

Diana Chapman
And also conscious loving for couples, because you asked that question earlier. Conscious loving, I think is a fantastic book for couples who are wanting to get more connected is another one I've gifted a lot. Those are the two that come top. Of mind, two primaries for people who just want to preview what is the big leap about? Or what is it for?

The big leap is all about learning to live in your zone of genius, which I think is just the most fun thing. And to take a look at what are the things that keep us from living in our zone of genius? And so I tell every leader I coach to get it, and 100% of them have said it was a valuable read. And gay has just come up with a follow up book on zone of genius that just came out last month that I imagine will be another book I'll be recommending and gifting, because I find that inside of all of us is some creativity that when we are in that place, time and space go away. It's so fun and makes life so worth living.

And I really am excited about supporting people and living as much as possible in that zone of genius. Well, I think you do a damn fine job of it. It's been fun to get to know you. It's been fun to also get to know you in this chat a bit more and doing homework. It's always fun to do research on friends which would otherwise be super creepy and like Google stalking, but I have a pretext and excuse which is doing interviews and people can find the conscious leadership group at conscious is and certainly all the social and so on can be found from that jumping off point.

Tim Ferriss
You also have a lot of PDF's and resources for people on the website. So I encourage people to check out their website. We'll link to that, we'll link to prompts, we'll link to everything that we discussed in the show. Notes at Tim blog podcast Diana, is there anything else that you would like to see, say or ask? Any request of the audience?

Anything at all that you'd like to add before we come to a close? I feel pretty heartbroken these days about the drama that is happening amongst us. And I'm actually grateful for the heartbreak because it's helping me connect more with love. And one of the things I'm doing is facing, I'm really facing the cost of the drama that we're having. And so I think one of the things I most hope people will do is have the courage to face the cost of the drama that we are creating in our workplaces that has people so overwhelmed at work, the cost politically, environmentally, and that they're willing to face it, let their hearts break wide open and then from that place get curious and excited about what else could we create together?

Diana Chapman
What else is possible? Because that really excites me and I think, I don't want to argue with the way the world is. It's just fine the way it is. And I have a preference for a lot more play and creativity and togetherness and curiosity that I find when we. Drop the drama, that is an excellent place to close and what a enjoyable and I think very helpful for me conversation.

Tim Ferriss
So thank you very much, Diana, for making the time and being so present. Thank you. My great pleasure. I'm so grateful for all the ways you go out into the world and bring forward things that help people live more connected and valuable lives. And it is one of the things that I believe your depression has been a great gift is I don't know that you would have done this if you hadn't have had the depressions that you had and needed to find the tools that you needed.

Diana Chapman
So I'm grateful for your depression and for your own unique journey that has now enhanced so many of ours. So thank you so much. Oh, thank you so much, Diana. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Tim Ferriss
And for everybody listening. Stay strong. Get curious. Check out the show notes at Tim blog podcast. And until next time, thank you for tuning in.

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#740: Greg McKeown and Diana Chapman

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1: Introduction

2: Greg McKeown on Essentialism

3: Diana Chapman on Conscious Leadership

4: Integrating Personal and Professional Life

5: Q&A with Listeners

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