Costanoa Ventures: Amy Cheetham on transitioning from Operating to Investing, building a venture partnership, and the role of hiring in scaling early startups

This episode delves into Amy Cheetham's transition from finance and operating roles to a career in venture capital, and her experiences and insights on building and scaling startups.

1. The transition from operating roles to venture capital requires strong networking and mentorship.
2. Effective hiring and quick adaptation are crucial for startup success and scalability.
3. Early-stage investing offers unique opportunities, especially in a fluctuating market.
4. AI continues to transform fintech, predicting significant integrations across all fintech operations.
5. Personal resilience and adaptability are key in navigating career changes and venture success.

1: Amy’s Background

Amy Cheetham discusses her early life and initial exposure to finance, emphasizing the role of networking in her career transitions. Amy Cheetham: "I cold emailed 150 alums until I found one that could help me find my way to JPMorgan."

2: Venture Capital Transition

Detailed insights into Amy’s shift from finance to venture capital, including her motivations and the influences that guided her career. Amy Cheetham: "The energy on the trading floor was so fun, it really started the ball rolling on finance for me."

3: Hiring and Scaling

Amy shares her perspective on the importance of hiring velocity in startups and its impact on growth and adaptability. Amy Cheetham: "The number one indicator of success post investment is the velocity of hiring."

4: Market Dynamics

Discussion on the current state of venture capital markets, focusing on the challenges and opportunities presented by economic conditions and technological advancements. Amy Cheetham: "Now is probably the best time in my career ever to be an early-stage investor."

1. Leverage networking to navigate career transitions effectively.
2. Focus on swift hiring processes to enhance startup growth and adaptability.
3. Utilize early-stage investment opportunities in fluctuating markets.
4. Integrate AI technologies in fintech operations to stay ahead in the market.
5. Cultivate resilience and adaptability to thrive in dynamic career paths and business environments.

"I firmly believe that for-profit technology companies stand the best chance of solving many of the world’s toughest problems and venture lets me be a part of that process."

Amy is a Partner at Costanoa Ventures where she focuses primarily on fintech. In addition to deepening the firm’s fintech portfolio in the US, Amy has driven the firm’s expansion into emerging markets, specifically into Latin America and Africa. Her primary focus is on seed and series A stage B2B fintech companies, which encompass everything from fintech infrastructure to payments to application-layer tools. She has led multiple investments, including Assis, Malga, Highline, and Highnote.

Before joining Costanoa in 2019, Amy ran North American sales strategy and operations at Zuora, a public enterprise software company. Prior to that, she spent three years investing in growth stage technology companies at Summit Partners, where her investments included Podium, InfoArmor (acq. AllState), and onXmaps. Amy began her career on Wall Street, working at JP Morgan where she spent time as a technology investment banker and as an equities trader focused on financial services.

People

Amy Cheetham, Brian Hollins

Companies

Costanoa Ventures, JPMorgan, Zora, Summit Partners

Books

None

Guest Name(s):

Amy Cheetham

Content Warnings:

None

Brian Hollins

Welcome to the Road Untraveled podcast, the show where we share the amazing journeys of exceptional investors making an impact across the vc industry. Our guests come from tech ecosystems around the globe and each have their own perspective on where innovation is headed. We'll explore the different paths that these investors took to get to where they are today, the challenges they've faced, and the lessons they've learned along the way. A little bit about me I'm your host, Brian Hollins. I help lead an early stage venture capital firm called Collide Capital.

If you're a founder building software for the future and want to share your idea, please check us out at ww collidecap.com and find a way to get in touch. But for now, I'm thrilled to take you to our latest episode of the season. So thanks for joining us and welcome to the Road Untraveled.

Welcome back to the Road Untraveled. Super excited to have Amy Cheatham of coast to no adventures here with me today. Amy, thank you so much for joining me. How are you doing? I'm good.

Amy Cheatham

Happy Monday. Thanks so much for having me on Monday. Indeed. Amy's joining us early in the morning from the west coast. I appreciate you being here and hopefully we can get you some exciting questions that get you really diving into your incredible background.

Brian Hollins

You've done a bunch of really cool things and I'm super excited for our listeners to get a chance to hear from you. Amy, maybe just start at the top, a little bit of your personal background and how you got to know a. Bit of a cirque in his path. I grew up in rural Maine and both my parents are scientists, so I don't think I'd ever even heard of venture capital or even a startup, probably until I was a sophomore in college or maybe even a little bit later than that. But I really wanted to not go home to Maine the summer after my sophomore year of college and was trying to think through what are the jobs that pay enough money that I don't have to go back to Maine and can afford to live New York City.

Amy Cheatham

And that list is basically consulting or investment banking. I went to a small liberal arts school that doesn't send that many people into finance, or at least didn't twelve years ago. And I decided I was going to find a job at an investment bank and I cold emailed 150 alums until I found one that could help me find my way to JPMorgan. And it worked. And I found a job as a sophomore intern at Morgan on the trading floor and that really started the ball rolling on finance, and I just loved it.

The energy on the trading floor was so fun. It was like nothing I'd ever experienced. I'd never been to New York City before I interviewed for that job, and so I just felt like a tiny fish in this huge pond. And it was so exciting and really fun. And so that started two summers working on Wall street, ended up getting a full time offer at Morgan on the trading floor, and then from there, realized that while I loved kind of the fast paced component of trading, really wanted a little bit more of an analytical background.

So found my way to the investment banking side, and from there got introduced to venture, and have spent the last ten years working across banking, latest stage venture, and then the last four years at Costa Noa. Yeah, we'll jump into a few of the different roles that you've had, but I'm curious, as someone else that also spent a little too long inside of an investment bank, the route from trading to the investment bank is actually not that easy. You made it sound like you just kind of, like, leapfrogged over and opened the door. But talk a little bit about what you learned about sort of the networking components and some of the things that come into being. Someone that can actually make that jump.

Brian Hollins

When, again, as someone that spent seven years at Goldman, I know it's actually not as easy as you just made it sound. It's not easy, and I shouldn't gloss over that, because I do think it's a really challenging move. And I would say I owe that move to probably one person in particular. There was a woman on the trading floor who I was absolutely terrified of. There were 50 of us on the trading desk, and she was the only other woman.

Amy Cheatham

It was literally me and her 50 people. And her name was jeannie, and she was one of the mds, and she was terrifying because you kind of have to be in order to be the only woman on this male dominated trading desk. And she pulled me aside four months in, and she goes, amy, you don't want to be a trader 15 years from now. Trust me, you have to leave. And I think I cried.

Like, I remember talking to her and being like, jeannie doesn't think I'm good at my job. Like, I have to leave. This is horrible. I must be so bad at this. And really, it was probably the best thing that's ever happened to me in my career was her scaring the living daylights out of me by telling me that this wasn't the right path.

But all jokes aside, I think what that catalyzed for me was a very serious set of conversations with her around. Hey, well, you're kind of joking, but what do you really mean? And her point was basically, hey, margins are compressing. This team is going to get smaller. You're really smart and really capable.

Go talk to people in other groups at the bank. And she helped me, a few of the other mds helped me, and they were really kind. But it was a nine months process, probably to get from trading over to banking. And I ended up in all transparency. I ended up taking a step back.

And so I started as kind of like a junior analyst on the investment banking side. And I think they thought that I wasn't going to be able to cut it. And I did, and I proved everyone wrong, and it was a great experience. But I kind of came in with an axe to grind of like, oh, they don't think that I can cut it here because I didn't go to Wharton undergrad. So it was definitely a tough transition.

I don't think it's impossible, but you have to really want it to make that trend happen. I love the anecdote of the serendipity of genie being just caring about your future. Right. I think so much of our job now in venture is just that. It's actually, yeah, I want you to make a billion dollars.

Brian Hollins

But if your company doesn't work, I think there's a lot of other roles that I can play in making sure that you land on your feet and that you find other opportunities to continue to succeed. Oh, yeah, I'll never forget that. Even though it was only a couple of conversations. And then I think the hardest part of that whole transition was once I went to the, there was a rule at Morgan where if you were going to move groups, if you were, know, the third or fourth interview, you had to tell the head of your desk. And so I had to go to the head of my desk and say, hey, I'm interviewing.

Amy Cheatham

And he said, great. If you don't get a job, you're not welcome back here, because clearly you're no longer invested. And thankfully, there were so many people like Jeannie and others that were so amazing and so supportive, and I think it would have been fine. But in some weird way, that also kind of gave me the kick in the ass to be like, well, you got to take the leap. And there's no, like, I do this 50%, it's like, you have to go find this job.

And if you don't, then I don't know what you're going to do. So sort of a terrible construct. Like, I don't think that's a good way to operate, but it worked for me in that situation. Love it. Let's fast forward a little bit to some of your other roles.

Brian Hollins

You actually kind of flipped sides. You left the finance and banking side and spent a little bit of time at a company that was scaling. Talk a little bit about that experience and maybe just some of the anecdotal lessons that you learned there for the first time that weren't obvious to you when you're at the bank. Yeah, I joined Zora right after they'd gone public. So they were eight or 900 employees kind of in that weird space where you went public and everyone thinks you're a grown up company, but you're probably not really yet, right.

Amy Cheatham

You're still a startup, but now you have public investors scrutinizing everything that you do. And it was a really interesting experience. I joined to be the chief of staff working on go to market strategy, kind of working for the president who ran go to market services and had a great experience, but transparently joined just at a really tumultuous time for the company and learned a ton. But we were in, I think, a really tough transition from being a late stage startup to being a public company. And that scrutiny and that challenge of keeping results quarter after quarter after quarter consistent was really hard.

And so I joined in a period where the stock had a downward trend for eight or nine quarters in a row, maybe even more than that. And it was challenging. So I think my biggest takeaways were, being a public company is extremely hard, especially if you go public probably a little bit earlier than maybe you should have, and then two large organizations. It is so hard to drive motivation and drive organizational connectivity in a way that keeps big sets of people motivated and working together productively. And I already had, had a lot of appreciation for how hard it is to build a company, but I think I thought once you got to scale, it was easier.

It's not, it's just hard in different ways. And so I left with a lot of appreciation for how hard it is to run a larger company and then especially that transition to going public. How hard that is. Yeah. And then talk about that transition, then into venture.

Brian Hollins

And so you then come back to the other side of the table. You stop building a company, you start building a lot of companies. What sort of motivated you to come to venture? And maybe the second piece after that is what motivated you to go to. And.

Amy Cheatham

And there's maybe one step in there that we missed, which is I went to summit partners between Morgan and Zora and spent three years doing later stage investing. And I think during that experience fell in love with this ability to be relatively early in your career, but getting to talk to, I think, the smartest people in the world, which are founders and operators and other investors, and really felt motivated and drawn to this idea that I got to just be curious all day, every day, and learn about new things and have this really unique position of talking to these really smart, motivated people. So at Summit, I think I fell in love with that feeling of sort of. I like to joke that it's like intellectual add, right? Like you're always talking to new smart people about new interesting things.

And that just felt really captivating. And so when I went to Zora, I learned a ton, but I think missed that diversity of intellectual stimulation that you get on the venture side, where you're constantly thinking about new ideas, constantly thinking about new problems, and always talking to new people. And one thing I felt at Summit was that even though I liked where we were investing, which was companies with north of $10 million of revenue, I was finding them really early. And it was always really frustrating to me that I couldn't just invest when I first got them right. And one of the companies that I invested in at Summit was a company called podium, and we led their series a, but they were already double digit revenue at that point.

But I had met them right when they were leaving YC and starting this business. And look, we still invested, and I think it'll be a fantastic outcome. And I feel really, really happy that we led the series A, but clearly I could have maybe gone in at the seed, and I think that would have been really exciting. So that led me to be excited about earlier stage. And so when the Kosanoa opportunity presented itself, felt really excited about flipping a little bit earlier, talk a little bit.

Brian Hollins

About the DNA of Kosanoa. Just kind of. I obviously know Mark well. Shout out to Mark and the whole team at Kosanova. Talk a little bit about the team there and what you all are building.

Amy Cheatham

Yeah. So the firm was founded in 2012 by Greg Sands, who came out of Sutter Hill. And the ethos has really been, let's build a seed in series, a firm that is boutique in focus, that only does b, two b software. And we want to be your early stage partner that has a concentrated enough portfolio that we can spend a lot of time with our companies. And so boutique, keep our fund sizes relatively consistent.

Always be those early stage partners that are there for our companies. And that's meant that we're five partners and really are thoughtful in the concentration ownership, how many companies we invest in out of each fund so that we can be at that early stage value add partner. And we invest across b two b software. I spend the bulk of my time in fintech and SaaS, but we'll invest from anything kind of from fintech all the way to data and developer infrastructure. Super cool.

Brian Hollins

Talk about coverage. Because I think Summit does a really good job and I'm sure you brought some of your skills from that experience to Cosignoa. Now that you can go look for things that come out of YC, it's not as obvious. Right. I think part of the cheat code and growth is that if something's doing 5 million of ARR, there's probably some way to find out that it's doing five and also some way to find out it's going to 15.

It's just non obvious in the early stages. So talk about some of the signals and things that you use to build top of funnel as you're thinking about identifying companies now. It's a really different skill set. And I've been a coastal for four years now and I think there is always ways to improve your top of funnel as a seed investor. And most of what we do is at company formation.

Amy Cheatham

I think 14 out of the last 17 deals that we've done have been company formation. So these are founders that we have to find even before they're starting companies. To your point, that's an incredibly different motion than, hey, let's go see who's rented office space recently in San Francisco. Because you assume that company who has. A billboard on 101, that's what we used to do.

Oh, absolutely. No, that's exactly right. And so to me, I think what's been different at Costa Genoa is that so much of this has to be much more network driven. And I don't necessarily mean other vcs. Right.

This is getting to know operators that are at late stage, mid stage, early stage fintech companies or SaaS companies that might just maybe leave and start something three years from now. And I think the thing that can be really hard is have to just have faith that those relationships are going to pay dividends. But you may not see the payoff from those investments for several years as you're starting to build that network and build that community. But for me, I think the things I get most excited about are when I'm able to be there from the first day that someone says, hey, I think I want to start a company and I get to be there as they start to pick a co founder, decide what they're going to build. And then it gives me the ability to watch them go through that process, which means that when I go to make the investment, I've hopefully already been helpful.

And on the other hand, I've also been able to watch them in that ideation process, which gives me a lot more information to be able to invest. Early on, I'll point to kind of the one or two mistakes that you see folks make now that you spend time at that stage. Because I think something that is unique about sitting in a growth seat is like you do have visibility into what a company is supposed to look like. Maybe they shouldn't all look like this, but relatively you have directional experience around what it should look like at $10 million of ARR. And so talk about some of the early mistakes that folks who have never scaled to ARR, but what things they probably should hear.

I think the number one indicator of success that I see immediately post investment is velocity of hiring. So if I invest in a company and it takes them three months to hire their first person, and not because they're not focused on it, right? Like if they say, hey, we're going to go hire our first person, to me that says you're trigger shy and you're nervous to make a mistake, and that's probably going to permeate through the rest of the company, whereas I'd much rather have them go out, run a quick process. Let's say you hire the wrong person, okay, well, you correct your mistake, you move on. And I think that proves that kind of resilience, the ability to accept mistakes and learn from them.

And the worst thing you can do, I think, is be so nervous that you're going to do something wrong. You're going to make mistakes. That's what building a company is. You're going to do many things wrong, but being able to learn from that and really quickly change direction is really important. I'd way rather have someone make hopefully not too many, but a couple of mishires rather than not do it and therefore slow down the velocity and slow down that learning.

The hiring is one example, but I think that velocity is such a telltale sign and the best companies are ones where they truly believe that done is better than perfect and they're willing to put good product but not perfect product out there. They're willing to have good go to market conversations, but not perfect go to market conversations and same thing on the hiring side. And so then let's reverse out of that a little bit and say, what are the things that you can do on the VC side to identify that or spot that early? Are there triggers for you ahead of writing a check that could help you understand whether or not that team's going to be successful in doing that? It's hard.

The biggest thing we can do is references, right. We think a lot about how we assess founders, right. Because most of the deals that we're doing, there's not much else other than the founding team. And so trying to learn that both either in spending time with the team themselves or through references to understand what has this person done in times of uncertainty in the past? What's their velocity looked like when they've made mistakes, how have they reacted to it?

Has a mistake been an existential cris or has it been a learning opportunity? And how do they articulate that? How do they talk about those mistakes? And look, sometimes we get to back second time founders where we're able to really see that in real time, but a lot of times we're not. And it's hard.

Right. Those are really hard things to assess prior to investing. Yeah. If I were to remove Amy from Kosanoa and then sort of ask her handful of founders that she spends time with, why they would take money from her alone if she kind of, like, went and started her own thing, what would they point to? What are the one or two things that you think you really do for teams that make them excited to work with you?

I think the through line of maybe my whole career has been that I know I'm probably never going to be the smartest person in the room, but I'm hopefully always going to be the hardest working. And so my pitch to the founders I work with is like, look, I'm still early in my career, and I'm just going to work harder than all the other vcs around the table. And if you want a vc that's going to make introductions, be there at 07:00 a.m. On a Sunday morning when you're having an existential cris to talk about it and make introductions and help you with fundraising. That's been my ethos, and I think that matters.

Right. Like having a partner that shows up and my success really rides on the success of the companies that I work with. And I think especially because I'm still relatively early, seven years into this game, right? I don't have a ton of ipos, so I can't rest on my laurels. The next Ted deals that I do are going to define my career.

So for me, I think it really comes down to working really hard. And I think the second component is that when you are the first investor, oftentimes in these companies, there's something really special about that relationship. And maybe there was angel investor, maybe there are friends and family that were there first. But I'm often the first institutional investor that's really believed in a founder. And I think there's something really special about the relationship that that creates.

And to me, that relationship ends up being probably 30% therapist and 70% investor as a result. And I think there's something to me that's really gratifying about that, where you really feel like you're on a team and really feel like even though you have really hard conversations, there's something really special and unique about that relationship. And I value that a lot. Yeah, super cool. Maybe let's zoom out a little bit and talk about just market dynamics and where things are right now in venture.

Brian Hollins

Curious sort of your perspective on pacing and pricing and just how you all are assessing markets at Costa NoA right now. And maybe what you're looking forward to in the back half of the year. Kind of a tale of two Cities right now, I would say, where series b and beyond feels incredibly challenging, as I'm sure you know, having been a growth investor. Right, that is just a really hard place to be raising money. Prices are getting reset, expectations are getting reset.

Amy Cheatham

I think we'll see a lot of distress continue over the next probably one to two years in that market. And then on the flip side, it's a bit weird because the seed market feels as exciting as ever. I think now is probably the best time in my career ever to be an early stage investor, where there are so many smart people that their economics no longer make sense at late stage companies, and they're not sitting around vesting. They don't need to hit that cliff before they leave. And so they're ready to leave these companies and start things in a way that they just weren't two, three years ago.

So the quality of the founders that are starting things and then the quality of the talent that they're able to access feels unparalleled, at least for my career and especially for the last four years as an early stage vc. So our velocity this year, I think, has been steady and consistent with what we've done the last couple of years, but we're all really excited about the quality of things that we're seeing. And what's so weird is that bifurcation where it's very hard if you're a later stage company, but I think now's a great time to be a seed stage founder. Yeah. I know you spend most of your time in the enterprise software markets.

Brian Hollins

Curious if there's any piece of those markets that people are either really starting to build in or that you're really starting to spend time watching. I don't think we could have a conversation in August of 2023 without talking about AI. So, of course, AI is probably the one place right where it feels like that correction has not happened. Right. And Carta, I think, had just published a study a couple of weeks ago about the Series A market and valuations are down 20% or something like that year over year.

Amy Cheatham

But I bet if you stripped out AI, it would probably be a more significant bump down than that, because I think we're still seeing so much stuff in AI that looks like 2021 prices. I spend a bunch of my time in fintech, and I think we've all been joking for the last few years, especially at the height of this hype cycle, that every company is going to be a fintech company. And to some extent, I think we've seen that happen. But I think every fintech company is going to be an AI company, and I think that is happening probably more quickly. Right.

And financial services has been using AI since the, like, FICO was using neural nets for fraud detection starting in 1996, which sounds crazy, but it's true. And I think people underestimate how advanced some of the artificial intelligence has already been in financial services. And I think we'll see that proliferate across all categories of fintech. And I don't know that you have to be looking for specifically, like, AI companies in fintech. Right.

I think everything that is interesting in fintech is going to have some component of that embedded in what they're building. Interesting. So is now a good time or a bad time to start a company? It's a great time. You should start a company.

Brian Hollins

It's a great time. I mean, it's hard to get money. It's hard to get your attention. It's hard to get any type of valuation to make a first 510 employees. Excited to join you.

Why is it a great time? I don't know if I agree with that. I think right now there are a lot of seed investors that believe that this is a really interesting time to build companies. And I think a lot of people that they're definitely distracted by the portfolios, right? There's a lot going on in portfolio management for all vcs, but I think right now, because there's so much more talent on the market and there's so many more interesting people that are loose in the saddle at later stage companies, it's just a great time to go look for a co founder.

Amy Cheatham

It's a great time to look for those first few engineers in a way that it wasn't three, four years ago where trying to rip those people out of Google, meta stripe, et cetera, was so challenging. And so I think the tables are turning on the talent side and that's leading to seed investors like myself being really excited about early stage companies right now. And I would also say that I don't know that valuations at seed have come down as significantly as they have in other categories because of the quality of the talent that we're seeing. And that may mean that these companies are going to make their Runway last a little bit longer and maybe move a little bit more slowly out of the gate to kind of account for that funding gap between seed and then a and b. But seed does not feel like it has changed meaningfully over the last couple of years.

Brian Hollins

Give a little bit of advice for some of the folks listening who might be taking you up on that offer to go and build a company. Like what is the right way to get in front of an Amy or just anyone in the seed market who's looking as early as PowerPoint idea, pre revenue, pre concept, even sometimes. What are some of the do's and don'ts that you'd give to an early stage aspiring first time founder? One, you can email me Amy at Cosanoa VC. Two, I would say build relationships with a small set of vcs early.

Amy Cheatham

For me, I love meeting founders before they have a co founder or before they've decided what they're going to build. Because as I said earlier, it gives me that ability to get to know someone on deeper levels so that I'm not showing up on a Thursday afternoon. I meet you for the first time and you're like, oh, I think I'm going to get a term sheet on Monday. And that makes it so hard for me to move quickly enough to feel confident in a large seed investment or even a small seed investment. Right.

That process is so tough. And so I had dinner with someone last night who I've known for a little while and the person has decided they want to leave their company and was really excited about chatting through what they're working on. But the person doesn't have a co founder and I feel really privileged that I get to be there for that. And so to me, I think if you are in that phase where you think you want to start something and you can find your way to two to three or four vcs that you can talk to and start building a relationship with, I think that's higher value than trying to get to the point where you have the pitch deck and you have everything perfectly buttoned up. I think you're going to build more authentic relationships if you do it a little earlier in the process.

And hopefully you're going to get some meaningful help along the way and meaningful feedback right before you get to that. Mortgage baked idea and probably some different feedback. I think that's another good quality piece of talking to a few different folks is venture funds look for different things and different investors care about different parts of the concept. So I think that's super tactical advice. One more for you, Amy.

Brian Hollins

This has been really know as someone that's built a really fascinating career and a successful career, give it a little bit of advice for people that are still trying to figure out what they want to know. I don't know if costa Noah is what you're doing for the rest of your life, but you certainly have landed yourself in a really quality seat that's allowed you to have autonomy and build the career that you're now building for someone that hasn't necessarily found that yet. Maybe talk them through the one or two points that you'd leave them with now on how they can go and do that from here. Well, thank you, number one. And I don't know that any of us ever figure out exactly what we want to do.

Amy Cheatham

I will say that I love my job and I feel incredibly privileged to work with the smart people at Coast Snow, but also all the really smart founders that I get to interact with. I think the through line for me has been relentless curiosity and finding a way to have that kind of guide where I spend my time. And so if I'm giving advice to people, it is go meet people and network and be relentless about building relationships. And if you leave positive impressions on the people that you talk to, you never know how that is going to pay off. And I have a friend that I know from Morgan that when I was a sophomore intern that recently resurfaced and is starting a company.

Right, like these things just come back around. And my biggest piece of advice is just remember that you never know that first person that you meet in college or your first job or your first internship, how they're going to impact your career later on. And so if you can leave positive impressions and keep in touch with people, right? Like keep in touch with the smart people, you never know where that's going to lead. So it's a networking community.

Building is probably number one. And then number two is, look, if you have a goal, even if it seems unattainable, I think finding ways to continually move towards that, whether that's in your current role or outside of it, and continuing to pursue that, it's never too late and you're never too old, I think is kind of the mantra that I try to remember, and I think that's true whether you're trying to start a company or change jobs. Amy chief, I'm a partner at Cosano Ventures. Thank you so much for joining me. It's really fun.

Thanks, Brian. Really appreciate it.

Brian Hollins

That's it for this episode of the Road Untraveled. I hope you enjoyed it. And if you're interested in learning more, please check us out at the road untraveled. You can follow me on Twitter at bhalls one, and you can follow the road untraveled on Twitter at VC perspectives. My one ask to you is to share this with someone that you think might enjoy the episode or any of the episodes that we've had.

We've really enjoyed building this community and hope to continue building going forward. Hope to see you at the next episode. Thanks for listening.