Could the 2024 Election Be Decided by Memes?

Claire Malone
Democrats think Biden is too old to be an effective president, as do Republicans. So I think it's this innate thing where people already are inclined to say, listen, this guy is old. And Biden does have a lot of falls.

We know that traffic to news sites is way down and traffic to social media sites, short form video sites like TikTok or Instagram reels is up. And so people are just seeing more and more of these videos, and it's kind of coalescing in this very interesting. A vacuum is being filled by TikTok videos and genuine voter concerns about Biden's age.

Tyler Foggatt
That's my colleague Claire Malone.

Claire is a staff writer for the New Yorker, where she reports on politics and America's shifting media landscape.

In January, Claire wrote a piece about the memeification of american politics.

At the time, she joined me for a conversation about how Americans consume the news and why the presidential race might well come down to a few funny videos.

In the months since, our conversation has only become more relevant.

Biden and Trump are competing to go viral on TikTok and Republicans are attacking the president with deceptively edited content.

So I thought it would be a good time to return to this episode about what our deranged media ecosystem has done to our politics.

You're listening to the political scene. I'm Tyler Foggatt, and I'm a senior editor at the New Yorker.

Unknown
So you begin your piece by zeroing in on one of the biggest criticisms of Joe Biden as he runs for reelection, which is his age.

Recent polls show a large majority of Americans think he's too old to be effective in a second term. Biden is 81. He's going to be 86 by the end of his second term. So it's an understandable concern. But you also trace a lot of the concern over Biden's age to videos like the Air Force Academy video when.

Unknown
He took a nasty spill on stage. Take a look at this video. The president went down after shaking hands just before the three and a half hour long ceremony concluded.

Unknown
Those videos are getting millions of views, and it seems like some of them have been edited to have music in the background that enhances the comic nature of the situation, curb your enthusiasm.

Claire Malone
Music.

Unknown
Exactly. Or like the Mario Brothers theme with bananas that have been edited in to make Biden make it look like he was tripping on them. What do you think is driving this interest in these kinds of videos?

Claire Malone
I mean, I think it's a couple factors, most of them simple. One of them is most Americans do think he's too old. And that includes Democrats, which I think is really notable. That's consistent in polling. And then the other thing, the other sort of ambient media factor, is a lot of people aren't reading the news anymore.

Unknown
So why do you think the falling videos in particular have really taken off? Because I feel like if you're concerned about Biden's age and his ability to serve a second term, the more effective memes would be like the video of him on 60 Minutes where he goes, you know, oh, I'm focused.

Donald Trump
How would you say, your mental focus?

It's focused.

I think it's.

Unknown
I haven't, look, you know, when we are concerned about older people falling, it's not because the fall itself is necessarily the problem. It's that, you know, someone can die if they fall.

Claire Malone
I do think that the big driving factor in why the falling videos are so popular is almost the secondhand embarrassment of it. Right. The kind of the cringe factor. There actually are a lot of videos of Biden spliced together, fumbling with his words. I should note here, Biden has a lifelong struggle with the stutter, but the falling stuff is a, the kind of the virality of secondhand embarrassment. I mean, we all, we all grew up watching America's funniest home videos. But then there is the kind of, yes. You know, someone like Ben Shapiro, the conservative radio or podcast personality, can kind of go on there and sort of, you know, there's an undercurrent of I'm concerned, and you should be concerned, too. Joe Biden, that dude's real old. I mean, if Joe Biden were to be reelected, he would be 86 when he left office, which is, you know, four, five, six years beyond american life expectancy. This isn't me just making fun of a guy who fell. This is me saying, whoa, this is a real, yikes, could this guy die on the job? Could this guy become really injured? And yes, could someone that we don't, we really don't like, aka Kamala Harris, go into office?

Unknown
In your research for this piece, did you find any evidence that, you know, these memes of Biden's trips and falls, that there's some basically, like, the result of, like, a larger coordinated campaign?

Claire Malone
It's a couple of things. You know, I talked to an academic who researches memes, which is a kind of fun area of interest.

Unknown
Yeah.

Claire Malone
And he.

Unknown
Dream job.

Claire Malone
A dream job, truly.

He basically said it's both. Grassroots again, going back to the poll numbers, most Americans think he's too old. So effective memes play on people's actual beliefs. They play on stereotypes.

But, you know, the thing about is itare they planted by right wing activists or people who are connected to campaigns? It's really hard to tell in, you know, TikTok environments. It's undeniable that this is a grassroots sentiment, but it perhaps it is amplified by some professional campaign operatives, but it is certainly amplified by right wing conservative media influencers. So Steven Crowder, who's a popular host, Ben Shapiro, if you get some of these memes or topics under discussion on these shows, it really goes out into the bloodstream of a certain type of voter. And I think more broadly, the american audience or democratic voters, we're all on the same Internet. TikTok is sort of cosmically random. I mean, it's not. It has an algorithm, but it allows things to go viral in a different way. So I think it's just being seeded all over while also being amplified by a very organized conservative ecosystem.

Unknown
So what are Donald Trump memes like? Because it seems like he's only four years younger than Biden, and yet he is spared a lot of the criticism about his age.

Claire Malone
Yeah, I mean, one thing I talk about in the piece is how Biden and Trump are actually both very memed individuals in american life. Biden was originally memed in very positive ways during his time as vice president. There was kind of like Uncle Joe, the cool grandpa with the aviators, Obama's best friend. Trump has also always been memed because, you know, he's a caricature of a kind of nouveau riche dude in american life. You know, he's the guy who had a cameo in home alone.

Donald Trump
Two down the hall and to the left.

Unknown
Thanks.

Claire Malone
So even before there were Internet memes, Donald Trump was kind of a meme. One thing that I talk about in the piece, which, you know, it's one of, I think, the funniest things that happened during Trump's time in the White House is, you know, there was a lot of talk about how overweight Trump was, how unhealthy his diet was during the campaign. He had this, like, ridiculous McDonald's order of two Big Macs, two filets of fish, you know, a chocolate malted.

Donald Trump
And then the Clemson championship team, the national championship team will be coming tonight. It'll be exciting.

Claire Malone
Clemson came to the White House after winning the national championship coming tonight.

Donald Trump
And I think we're going to serve McDonald's, Wendy's, and Burger Kings with some pizza. I really mean it.

Claire Malone
It was during a government shutdown, and so instead of providing sort of, you know, the wonderful White House food that you would have, he presented on, you know, silver platters and in the splendor of the White House fast food. So, like, McDonalds and Dominos. And it was memed all over. And it was genuinely funny because it was kind of, he was leaning into his image. And I think theres also this idea that the conservative media ecosystem then picks up in that and likes to spread the Donald Trump memes. Right. Theyre not fighting it. Everyone knows that Donald Trump is a bit of a caricature, including Donald Trump.

He leans into it more and sort of asserts more identity over his meme ability than I think Biden does.

Unknown
It's really funny that you mentioned the Trump burgers meme, because I am also responsible for spreading that in my own family group chat.

My younger sister, she recently had a birthday, and basically parents can go into the school classroom and bring a snack. And she asked my stepmom to get a happy meal for every kid in the class. And so we got these photos of just all these kids with happy meals. And then I sent the Donald Trump burger meme.

So good, which had been on my feed, like, a day before.

And so that brings me to the next question, which is, does it say anything about me that I get a bunch of Donald Trump memes of Trump looking cool and then memes of Biden falling?

Claire Malone
I didn't look into that too much. But I do think we know that the TikTok algorithm just promotes things that people are clicking on and looking at. And if on something like Instagram reels, it might say, Tyler's really into politics, so we're just gonna feed her all the politics reels that are going on, many of which are about Biden falling.

Unknown
Just throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.

Claire Malone
Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I think it is your explore page being a window into your deepest, darkest interior. Life is. I think there's something to it. But I think we are all being fed content that maybe five years ago we would have said, oh, this is a Republican promoted anti Biden campaign, because it's making fun of him. But I just think so many Americans are uncomfortable with it that it is kind of, it's become a really mainstream issue. His age, his capabilities.

And I think, you know, it's unfair to not mention Trump's age and Trump's capabilities. I mean, you know, I know some people who have seen Trump recently on the stump and say he's so meandering now. It's very, you know, it feels a little different from the 2016 campaign speeches. We are just dealing with two historically old candidates for president, and no one in America is happy with that.

Unknown
So I want to go back to something you said earlier, which is that Biden used to be memed in a more positive light. I feel like he's known for sort of, like, always having been a little gaffe prone, but he used to get a lot of love for that. Like, after Obama signed the Affordable Care act into law, Biden was caught on that hot mic.

Joe Biden
Joe Biden was fired up. All right, this is a big deal.

Pardon me.

Unknown
This is a bridge.

Unknown
And then there were all the memes showing how hit Biden was with his aviator sunglasses. Even Amy Poehler's character in parks and recreation had a huge crush on him.

Donald Trump
You're gonna be coming by, and you must be Leslie. No, welcome, welcome.

Claire Malone
My name just came out of your mouth.

Donald Trump
Well, yeah, it did.

Unknown
You know, that was just a few years ago. So when did this change? And is it really just that he became more visibly old or, like, what happened?

Claire Malone
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a couple things, but I think the big thing is Biden's position changed. Biden was the vice president under Obama. Obama was a relatively popular president, and he was very popular with Democrats. And because of that, Joe Biden kind of was grandfathered in with his popularity, so to speak. So he was. You know, he kind of benefited from that sidekick role with Obama. You know, they were an odd couple, right? If there were Obama memes, it was like, Obama's really cool. You know, like, that was the Obama meme, and Joe Biden was looser.

Obviously. One is an older white guy, one is a younger black man. So there was just sort of these inherent differences, and people found it comforting and likable. And then once Obama dropped out of sight, and it was just the Joe Biden show, I mean, you know, Joe Biden is a pretty conventional politician. He has been in political office for decades upon decades. You cannot get more entrenched than Joe Biden. We obviously all saw the democratic primary in 2020 where he wasn't necessarily the favorite. He was kind of the, okay, this guy has the best chance of beating Donald Trump person. So I think a lot of it has to do with that. And then I think we're just even. You know, even from two or three years ago, we're just in a different era of the Internet. It's more. There's less Twitter, there's more TikTok and Instagram. It's just like a more shorthanded, frankly, less information rich environment. So I think it's a couple of factors going into this. The reason why these memes now exist and are at play.

Unknown
It seems like recently the Biden campaign has been trying to respond to all of the negative memes, like they were selling these dark Brandon t shirts and coffee mugs as this sort of soft, reactionary response to the right wing. Can you explain the origin of the dark Brandon meme?

Claire Malone
So dark Brandon responds to a conservative meme that is, let's go, Brandon, which is basically a way to say f Joe Biden.

And so the kind of, like, left wing dirtbag Twitter, Internet, whatever, you know, Reddit Internet, created this meme that was the dark Brandon meme, which is Joe Biden, aka Dark Brandon. Every time he got a policy win or something good happened for the White House, they would put out this meme of Biden with lasers shooting out of his eyes or, like, emperor Palpatine style, you know, shooting lightning bolts out of his hands to kind of be like, Biden. Isn't this goofy, grandpa? He's actually like this very, you know, sinister dark lord who's getting stuff done for the left, right. So that was actually an effective meme because I think it came from, again, organically, from, like, this dirtbag leftist Twitter.

Donald Trump
I'm gonna be fine with your jokes, but I'm not sure about dark Brandon.

Claire Malone
The Biden campaign, I think, smartly, is now selling campaign merch that's playing on that dark Brandon meme, which is a couple years old, more recently, in a more formal way, they're trying to respond to talk about his age with humor. So Biden turned 81 in November and posted on his Instagram feed a picture of him sitting in front of a cake that is just ablaze with candles. I mean, you know, probably not 80 candles, but a lot of candles. And the flames are all sort of melting together. And he's kind of there.

Unknown
It's like a true fire hazard.

Claire Malone
A true fire hazard.

There's definitely someone standing to the side with some sort of fire hose, and it basically says something like happy 146th birthday, or something like that. So I think they are trying to go with humor to address it. And in his remarks, I think he's starting more and more to talk about that. But I'm sure at some point, maybe during a debate or during a town hall, someone will ask him and he will have to give an answer, a serious answer about his age. And I'm sure the answer will be a deflection to say, well, do you really want Donald Trump?

Unknown
So I'm wondering how, you know, if you're someone who gets your news from TikTok, how does this work when it comes to events that are not recorded? Like, you know, Donald Trump's many trials? You can read a New York Times article explaining, you know, what Trump said during his testimony, but it's not like you can meme that necessarily.

Claire Malone
I mean, I think Trump has certainly realized the fact that he needs to maybe fill the void where the cameras aren't. We saw him a couple of months ago during his trials in New York giving these, you know, casual press conferences, which are more just him saying, you know, it's a witch hunch, blah, blah, blah, which actually is quite savvy. Again, if you know all that, the press in New York is there and a microphone is there, you're filling the space, you're giving video snippets for favorable media outlets to replay. So I think that's happening on the Trump side of things.

To me, that's sort of an open question. Will misinformation flower? Because you can get someone who does one of these, YouTube or TikTok explain the news things and they say something that's wrong or they make up something that happened in court. There's a lot more ways that misinformation can go viral and can, frankly, fool very savvy users of the Internet. Right.

You could plausibly fall for something where you're like, wait a second, that sounds right, but is it right? You know, you have to make sure that you're getting your news from, you can't even say blue check marks anymore on all the platforms, but from places that are valid. And I think it's a really interesting open question about what that sort of social media news will look like over the next year.

Unknown
Absolutely. So I want to ask you more about misinformation and about the political impact of these memes. But first, we're going to take a quick break.

You'll hear more of the political scene from the New Yorker in just a moment.

If you've been enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and review on the podcast platform of your choice. And while you're there, don't forget to hit the follow button so you never miss an episode. Thanks so much for listening.

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Unknown
Claire, I want to expand on this point that we discussed earlier, which is that Americans are largely tuning out the news and getting their news from, you know, sites like TikTok. In your piece, you cited a Pew Research center study that showed that one third of adults under 30 regularly get their news from TikTok, which is kind of a crazy number.

Why TikTok?

Claire Malone
We should preface this by saying New Yorker listeners who are parents buy your children New yorker subscriptions.

I mean, TikTok is just the fastest growing app. It is built for virality. That is its sole purpose. I mean, it's addictive. I think all of us have been in the situation nowadays where you, like, you sit down on the couch after a long day, and all of a sudden it's 45 minutes later, and you're just, you're scrolling videos scientifically, algorithmically, built to addict you kind of app.

And frankly, it has the kind of content that people want nowadays, right? People after the 2020 election were super burned out on american news, right? One of Joe Biden's electoral propositions was, I will be so boring that you won't have to watch the news and care about what's happening in DC. So that was a thing then. We've had a lot of, frankly, really awful, depressing world events, the war in Ukraine, the war in Gaza. And whether we like it or not, it is human nature for people after a while, to tune out of that, right? And so apps like TikTok are filled with fun. They're filled with funny things. I mean, they're also filled with misinformation, right? But they're filled with things that people actually look forward to watching. I mean, I'm writing something now, and I'm really interested in the way Americans are sort of thinking about, what do you fill your brain with besides your work and your school? And less and less, it's news and more and more, it's people weighing their news subscriptions against, well, I don't wanna cancel Netflix or Hulu or whatever, Peacock. So I'm gonna cancel my Washington Post subscription. So the news, yeah, I mean, it's a brutal fact, but it is very true. So the news in general is competing with the fact that people, just plain and simple, don't wanna read the news, and they seek out platforms that are specifically designed to let them kind of veg out for a while.

Unknown
It seems like there's an interesting reframing of old content happening on TikTok. Like the other day, I was really surprised to come across this video of. I think it was during one of Trump's debates with Hillary Clinton, actually.

Claire Malone
It's just awfully good that someone with.

Joe Biden
The temperament of Donald Trump is not in charge of the law in our.

Claire Malone
Country, because you'd be in jail, Secretary Clinton.

Unknown
And I remember back when that actually happened, people were horrified by it. And when I was looking at the comments in this TikTok video, it was everyone basically being like, he really? Like, what a burn. Like, I can't wait to vote for this guy this election. I wasn't old enough to vote for him last time, and I'm proud to be able to do it this time. And it's just interesting because it's such an old clip. And yet on TikTok, it has this audience of seemingly young, excited viewers who think it's just absolutely epic. And I'm wondering if you think that there's something about this generation, just the way that they respond to certain kinds of humor or comments. Why is it that you take a clip that was all over Twitter in 2016, and you put it on TikTok in 2024, and people suddenly think it's dope?

Claire Malone
Yeah, it's such an interesting thing. And I will say I need to spend more time with Gen Z. I'm 37, right? So now I'm like, I'm out of touch with the youth. No, but I think that there is an interesting thing that is a really popular format on TikTok or Instagram or YouTube, is the retelling of history. Like, hey, fam, come over here and I'll tell you the story of. And it can be anything from Julia Roberts love life in the nineties to let me tell you, or reframe for you what the 2016 election was really like. And I do think if you look at poll numbers, Trump has support from young people in a way that might surprise some people. He has support from black voters in ways that might surprise some people from latino voters or certain segments of those populations. Like his support isn't as soft among certain groups as you might think. Now, he's still unpopular, obviously, but I do think that people who didn't actually witness the 2016 campaign with their frontal cortexes fully formed are kind of maybe more interested in Trump as this renegade figure. Hillary Clinton is, this hopelessly establishment, whatever lame figure in some people's eyes. That's something that I think I don't, is really, really interesting and I don't know enough about. But I do see constantly this sort of, on these social media sites, these formats of, let me tell you the history of. And it's obviously a very skewed history in certain ways, but people eat that stuff up. People do want to. I mean, people do still want knowledge.

It's just like, how firm and correct is the. Is the framing of it.

Unknown
So I want to talk a bit about misinformation, which, you know, we've already seen the spread of it in this election. NBC News reported on a robocall of an AI generated voice purporting to be Joe Biden telling voters in New Hampshire not to vote in the primary.

Donald Trump
What a bunch of malarkey. Voting this Tuesday only enables the Republicans in their quest to elect Donald Trump again. Your vote makes a difference in November, not this Tuesday. If you would like to be.

Unknown
I'm just wondering if there are any guardrails in place or in the works to prevent misinformation that's created and spread by AI. Cause we obviously had misinformation back in 2016 and 2020 as well. But this feels like, this feels like misinformation that people are even more likely to fall for.

Claire Malone
Totally. I think some of these sites are trying to flag AI generated content for users.

And I think probably if you're, frankly, younger and more just, this is the water that you swim through, the air you breathe, you're probably more able to discern things visually.

AI audio, I actually think, is much more dangerous because I remember when AI was first coming out last year, I can't remember what I was listening to, but it was this whole thing about how fans of musical artists were making these kind of mixtapes using the AI voice of the artist, and frankly, a lot of them really sound like the artist.

Unknown
I love those. Yeah.

Claire Malone
Yeah. So I think that an audio call from a fake AI, Joe Biden or a fake Trump is actually really dangerous, particularly when it's targeting voters in that way. Right. A suppressing turnout. You could see a sort of nightmare scenario where, you know, there's a call that goes out to, like, black neighborhoods in Milwaukee the night before the election saying, like, joe Biden's so far ahead in this state that you don't need to turn out. That could have massive consequences. And how do you litigate that in the fallout? It's really in the aftermath that's really difficult. So I actually think AI audio is really quite scary. AI visual, like, I'm embarrassed to say. Do you remember the pope in the puffy coat? Yeah, I initially thought that was real. Cause it was one of the first, like, really good AI things I had seen. And I was like, wow. I mean, I guess he's like, you know, he's in Italy. Like, it's really. Maybe he's just, like, going for, like, sort of a fashion thing. I was so embarrassed afterwards, but I thought it was, like, a really good lesson for me of like, yeah, you know, this is sort of better than you think. So I am humbled by my own, you know, wide eyed innocence. In a certain way, it'll be something that I think we have to keep an eye on as journalists to see. Are these platforms marking out AI generated content?

Are they marking out content that is spreading a misinformation? I mean, particularly on platforms like x, which have had a sort of core change in identity, to put it lightly, since the last election.

I think that's really, really something we're gonna have to watch.

Tyler Foggatt
We'll have more after the break.

Unknown
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Unknown
You know, we've talked about the role of, like, mainstream tech platforms, you know, Twitter or, sorry, x, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook. But what about truth, social, and more conservative platforms? What do those look like right now? And are they just totally right wing echo chambers where you don't really have to worry about the stuff that comes out of those places because it's not like a swing voter is necessarily being exposed to the content? Or is it actually more concerning than that?

Claire Malone
I do think that conservative social media sites are. They are used by the most hardcore right wing people. So in some ways, I think Trump obviously posts there. And so when you read stuff from truth social. It's a Trump post or a news site is aggregating truth social. I think a lot of right wing personalities and people are, frankly, on Twitter now. X. So they're on the, they're playing in the sort of the bigger sandbox, right? It's, I think those really sort of niche right wing sites are a factor only so much as Trump says something on them occasionally. But really, I think the amplification in the field of play is on Twitter. It's on YouTube, it's through podcasts, right wing radio, sort of like the new permutations of kind of the classic thing we've been talking about for half a century, which is the power of right wing radio and just the new forms that it's taken.

Unknown
What do you think is, like, the sort of the impact of this reliance on social media instead of the news? How will that impact the election and politics more generally? Just like, the way that candidates go.

Claire Malone
About campaigning, how people go about campaigning. I think it's really hard to change, you know, like modify a stump speech. But I think, you know, you see.

Unknown
She might be able. I was thinking about, like, you know, with, you know, when TikTok really started to take off, you noticed artists like Drake all of a sudden kind of like writing songs almost with TikTok in mind. It's like, what's the snippet of this song that's going to, you know, be good in the background?

Claire Malone
Yeah. The syncopation is different or whatever.

Unknown
Yeah. And I'm wondering if there's, like, a candidate, a political candidate version of that.

Claire Malone
Well, one thing that I, that the Biden campaign pointed out to me that they are doing is they're doing more of these mini events that they think will go viral on social media. That is, the president comes to your middle class household and eats dinner with you. Right. And, like, you, a 16 year old boy, films it for TikTok and posts it, you know, and it goes maybe quasi viral.

Unknown
So I would love to see that.

Claire Malone
See, so they are, they're trying, I think they're trying to do stuff like that where it's not Joe Biden sitting in the Oval Office trying to do something funny to go viral. It's, I think, stuff that goes, that also goes viral on social media are like heartstring stuff, cool stuff, things that are sort of, is heartwarming. So Joe Biden going to, like, you know, whatever, a middle class house and having dinner, whatever, Mac and cheese is something that people will click on. And frankly, he's something that Joe Biden is good at.

Unknown
Like, he is actually quite what is where he shines.

Claire Malone
He's quite good at being an empathetic, sort of glad handing, you know, old irish guy. Right. So I think that leans into his strength. So I think that's something that they're recognizing and frankly, trying to promote.

Unknown
You write a lot about the shifting media landscape in this country, and I feel like one thing that hasn't shifted, maybe at all is late night comedy. Basically, for my entire life, it has been liberal. The left really has or has had a monopoly on political humor. And it's interesting to me that we've changed mediums, and now we're looking at social media, and you have the Republicans all of a sudden winning the meme war. I'm wondering if you think that that can be attributed to just the fact that Trump himself is a better muse.

Claire Malone
Totally. That's a great question. I mean, I think Trump is a better muse. That's a great way to put it. Having watched the guy in person at events, he's funny. You know, what's the classic turn? Everyone uses carnival Barker humor, but he's got some timing and humor. So, yes, I think he's amused. There's a conservative influencer, a guy named Benny Johnson, who actually used to be a journalist for Buzzfeed. He has this great phrase, which is the left can't meme, but we can. Right, which is basically him saying the left is so self serious and so sanctimonious. They're so concerned with hurting people's feelings that we're the ones who can say the things that you are thinking, and we can be funny about it. And frankly, I think there's something to that. And I think it's one of the reasons why right wing memes do go viral, maybe on, you know, liberal Internet, too. Right. Because there is a certain aspect of going there. Right. I mean, it's why you see, I think, a lot of interesting conversations in stand up comedy. Like, okay, we're being too. Why aren't we making fun of Biden? Why can't we talk about this? Why can't I talk about pronouns? Right. There's this kind of, like the Dave Chappelle stuff. Exactly right. And the medium of comedy is always pushing boundaries to make you uncomfortable, to make you think. Right. Like, that's, like, actually smart and good comedy.

Unknown
So is it like that the best humor is derived from having some kind of shock value, and right now, conservatives are more interested in shock than liberals.

Claire Malone
I think there's something to that of being subversive to the norms that are frankly set by mainstream media, which we all know leans left. It is like in all of those echelons and social groupings of society that is trying to.

Yeah. Like, change the way people think about gender and race. So people are understandably.

Yeah. Seeking out the people who are talking subversively or, you know, subversively to, like, mainstream thought about those things. And maybe those are tapping into people's real feelings of confusion or a desire to go back to the way things are. Like, that is obviously happening here. And I think it's one of the reasons why people can, you know, people in the right wing can make jokes that I think are offensive to some people, if not many people, but also strike a chord with a lot of people and say, like, yeah, there's some truth in that.

Unknown
It makes sense. I mean, saving democracy is not funny.

Claire Malone
Democracy dies in darkness.

Unknown
Yeah.

Claire Malone
This is not a banger. Yeah.

Unknown
Well, thank you so much, Claire.

Claire Malone
Thanks for having me. It was fun.

Tyler Foggatt
Claire Malone is a staff writer at the New Yorker. You can find her piece, the memeification of american politics on newyorker.com dot.

This has been the political scene. I'm Tyler Foggatt. This show was produced by Julia Nutter and Michelle Moses and edited by Stephanie Karajuki and Gianna Palmer. Our executive producer is Stephen Valentino. Chris Bannon is Conde Nast head of global audio. Our theme music is by Alison Layton Brown. Enjoy your week and we'll see you next Wednesday.

Joe Biden
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Could the 2024 Election Be Decided by Memes?

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Episode Chapters

1: Introduction

2: The Impact of Memes

3: Media Consumption Shifts

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