Talking To The Wisconsinites Who Haven't Made Up Their Minds

This episode delves into the political landscape of Wisconsin, highlighting the significance of undecided voters in swing counties.

1. Swing counties like Sauk and Columbia are crucial in elections due to their history of switching political allegiances.
2. Economic issues and personal business impacts are significant factors for voters deciding whom to support.
3. Voter fatigue and disillusionment with political rhetoric are common among undecided voters.
4. Campaign strategies in swing states focus heavily on maximizing turnout and persuading the few remaining undecided voters.
5. The personal stories of voters illustrate the nuanced reasons behind their reluctance to commit to a candidate.

1. Introduction to Wisconsin's Political Landscape

The episode begins with an exploration of why Wisconsin's swing counties are critical in elections, highlighting their unique voting patterns and historical shifts. Elena Moore: "There are these things called boomerang counties... they have correctly voted with the winning presidential candidate in the last few elections."

2. Personal Stories from Swing Voters

Insights from residents in swing counties reveal the personal and economic considerations that sway their political decisions. Sharon Wade: "I often vote for what's best for my business... what's motivating me this time to flip and vote for Biden is because of all of the legal drama that is surrounding Trump."

3. Challenges for Campaign Organizers

Discussion on how local campaign organizers address the difficulties of engaging voters who are disillusioned or fatigued by politics. Don Gagne: "They are desperately trying to figure out ways to get more republican voters to mail in their votes early."

1. Engage in Local Politics: Understand the issues at your local level to make informed voting decisions.
2. Educate on Voter Impact: Spread awareness of how individual votes can sway significant outcomes in swing counties.
3. Encourage Voter Registration: Help others register to vote and understand the voting process.
4. Facilitate Open Discussions: Create spaces for open, non-partisan discussions about political concerns.
5. Promote Fact-Checking: Encourage critical evaluation of political information to combat misinformation.

The state is vital in both candidates' path clearing the 270 electoral vote threshold necessary to win the presidency. Wisconsin went once for Donald Trump and once for Joe Biden. How are voters in the state feeling this year?

This episode: national political correspondent Sarah McCammon, national political correspondent Don Gonyea, and political reporter Elena Moore.

This podcast was produced by Jeongyoon Han, Casey Morell and Kelli Wessinger. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi.

People

Sarah McCammon, Elena Moore, Don Gagne, Sharon Wade, Marissa Flick

Companies

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Guest Name(s):

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Ryan
I'm Ryan from Charlotte, North Carolina, and I am on the way to my college graduation ceremony.

Thank you to the NPR Politics podcast team for helping me get through all those long nights of studying over the last four years.

NPR Politics Podcast
This podcast was recorded at 12:36 p.m. eastern time on Wednesday, May 22, 2024.

Ryan
Things may have changed by the time you hear this, but I will officially be a college graduate.

NPR Politics Podcast
Oh, congratulations.

Elena Moore
Big deal.

Don Gagne
It's exciting.

NPR Politics Podcast
Hey, there. It's the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Sarah McCammon. I cover the presidential campaign.

Elena Moore
I'm Elena Moore. I also cover the presidential campaign.

Don Gagne
And I'm Don Gagne, national political correspondent.

NPR Politics Podcast
Today, the state of Wisconsin. Elena, you have brought back some reporting from that state. So we'll start there. Why Wisconsin? And how did you decide where in Wisconsin you wanted to go?

Elena Moore
I mean, why Wisconsin? Because as we've talked about, it's one of just a handful of states that we will be obsessed with for the next several months until the election. It's a key swing state. And within this swing state, there are very swingy counties.

There are these things called boomerang counties, which are not unique to Wisconsin. There's like a handful of them, them in crucial states, probably more like 20 or so in the country. These are places, counties that voted twice for former President Barack Obama and then flipped to former President Trump in 2016. And then this last election, boomeranged, bounced back to Biden, say that five times fast. And so they're, they're called Boomerang counties because they have correctly voted with the winning presidential candidate in the last few elections. So I was in Wisconsin, and there's a county outside of Madison, Wisconsin, called Sauk county. And this is a boomerang county, but right next to it is Columbia county, which is called a pivot county. And the pivot counties are like cousins of the boomerang because they also voted for Obama twice. Obama, Obama and then Trump in 2016, that big flip drama. But then in 2020, they did not boomerang back, stayed with Trump. But the thing about Columbia is it barely stayed with Trump. So I was like, ooh, spicy. I need to go to these two neighboring counties because they both just barely voted for different candidates. And they kind of, you know, exemplify this split mentality, which is in a split state.

NPR Politics Podcast
And dawn, how significant are these types of counties, whether it's boomerang or pivot or whatever you want to call it, these counties where that tend to go back and forth.

Don Gagne
For the record, boomerang sounds a lot more fun than pivot, right?

Elena Moore
That's true.

Don Gagne
But I think from experience, the people who live in these places do not particularly enjoy any of it, especially if they are an undecided, kind of swingy voter in one of these places. But they matter because while there are 25 of them across the country, only a small handful of them are actually in states that are also what we like to call swing states or battleground states. They're those states that, as Elena noted, we are focusing on so intently because it's pretty clear that these are the states where the election will be decided.

But here's what happens in those states, in the counties that aren't pivots or aren't boomerangs, the local county officials work on driving turnout. Even if it's a county that they expect to win easily, they hope to drive big turnout in their respective strongholds. That leaves it to these boomerang and pivot counties that are close. And the voters in the middle there who have not made up their mind can tip the balance. And that has proven to make the difference in state after state, in presidential election, after presidential election.

NPR Politics Podcast
Now, there are a couple of big factors when it comes to swingy places. One is turnout and the other is persuasion. And I think we talk less about persuasion because, frankly, fewer people are probably persuadable. Most of the time, elections are about turnout.

Elena Moore
Right.

NPR Politics Podcast
That's a cliche. But did you meet people who were either, you know, truly undecided or maybe had just gone back and forth?

Elena Moore
Actually, yes. When I was in Portage, Wisconsin, which is part of Columbia county, that pivot County, I met Sharon Wade, who's a small business owner. She runs this antique furnishing craft store downtown. And she told me, you know, she often votes for what's best for her business. And in the past, that's meant voting twice for former president Donald Trump. Before that, she voted for former president Barack Obama.

And she told me right now, I mean, business has been slower than usual over the last year, and so it's still top of mind. But what's motivating her this time to flip and vote for Biden is because of all of the legal drama that is surrounding Trump. I just feel like there's so much going on with his life, that how can he focus on our country? So I think that's part of it for me, is just we need someone who's gonna be dedicated to what's happening for us. So that's somebody who, like, literally could embody what happens in Columbia county. Maybe not, but I think that there are people like that throughout this place and obviously in Sauk, right next door.

NPR Politics Podcast
And, don, you know, I think all of us who spend time reporting on voters get a little excited when we do meet one of these admittedly relatively unusual voters who are truly swing voters, because we know most people tend to align with one party or the other, even if they're independent.

What is your sense of why people fall into this category when they do? I mean, what do you hear from voters who aren't really settled on one major party or the other?

Don Gagne
We do get excited when somebody says to us after we ask them who they're voting for. I don't know. I haven't made up my mind yet.

So we immediately start, like, running through the list of questions we have. What issues are most important to you? How do you typically vote? How did you vote last time?

Why did you vote that? What's different this time? You know, we go through all of these questions, and I guess somewhere inside, you hope they're going to give you a very concrete and specific answer for how they're processing everything, and they don't. These people, as you talk to them, tend to just be dissatisfied with how things are. The person they voted for last time maybe isn't delivering like they anticipated. The cost of gasoline is too high. The cost of groceries is too high. They tend to be, you know, a little bit vague, except to say that they thought things would be better. They're not better. So now they're looking for a way to make them better. And if this person isn't working, maybe that person will work, or maybe this person hasn't done all I want, but maybe I need to give them a little more time. But to hear that is important because there are people in every state and certainly in every one of these boomerang counties who are thinking about things in exactly that way.

NPR Politics Podcast
And we know there's a lot of broad dissatisfaction among american voters across the board about the political system. Elena, before we take a quick break, what are some of the issues that you were hearing about in Wisconsin?

Elena Moore
I mean, they're the issues that you've probably heard in North Carolina and in Georgia and Arizona and Michigan. They, you know, I had people bring up concerns about the economy rising prices. I heard about concerns about the border and immigration policy. People are concerned about protecting reproductive rights, especially if they are leaning more towards the democratic side. I did hear, you know, this idea of if you are solid in your choice, there is a disdain for the other side, and that's not new or revolutionary. But I heard the idea kind of hammered home that not only are you voting because of these policies, but you are voting against the other side.

NPR Politics Podcast
All right, let's take a quick break, and we'll have more in just a second.

Elena Moore
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Rachel Martin
I'm Rachel Martin. You probably know how interview podcasts with famous people usually go. There's a host, a guest and a light q and A. But on wild card, we have ripped up the typical script. It's a new podcast from NPR where I invite actors, artists and comedians to play a game using a special deck of cards to talk about some of life's biggest questions. Listen to Wildcard wherever you get your podcasts, only from NPR.

On this week's episode of Wild Card, actor Chris Pine tells us it's okay not to be perfect.

Chris Pine
My film got absolutely decimated when it premiered, which brings up for me one of my primary triggers or whatever is like not being liked.

Rachel Martin
I'm Rachel Martin. ChRIs Pine on how to find joy in imperfection. That's on NPR's new podcast, Wild Card, the game where cards control the conversation.

Elena Moore
Climate change fuels hurricanes. China promises to stop. The big lie persists.

NPR Politics Podcast
Butterflies have hearts.

Elena Moore
Singers die, plumbers win. Persevere.

Don Gagne
Your world speaks.

Elena Moore
We listen. NPR podcasts, more voices, all ears. Find NPR wherever you get your podcasts.

NPR Politics Podcast
And we're back. And, Elena, in addition to talking with voters who are trying to make up their minds this year, you also talked to the people who are trying to persuade them one way or the other. Those are the organizers and the base voters trying to rally other people to their side. So let's start with the Democrats. What are they focusing on?

Elena Moore
Yeah, so I actually got the opportunity with NPR producer Jung Yoon han. We got to do kind of two mini roundtables with local organizers on both sides. And so when I talked to the local Dems in Sauk county, it was very clear early on that the democratic organizers know the challenges they have. One of the members there, Judy Bry, she goes out canvassing every week in her town, the border and immigration and cost of living over and over and over again. They say, our president is doing nothing about it. I'm not going to vote for him. And these organizers say they will be trying to address those issues, but at the same time, they're going to try to make this election about a few other things, too. They say it's about protecting democracy and, you know, safeguarding abortion rights.

NPR Politics Podcast
Yeah. And what about the Republicans?

Elena Moore
I think it's kind of in the same way, it's the offensive of what the Democrats are playing defense, going to hammer home that this election is a referendum on Biden in the same way Democrats did that four years ago about Trump. You know, they're going to talk about the border. They're going to talk about rising prices on the economy. Gordon Stotts, who was a member of the Sauk County Republicans, he kind of put it best to me, you know, when thinking about how to address this election to some of these swing voters in his county.

Chris Pine
People now have seen the alternative. They've seen what Biden has done. They've seen what the Democrats are doing. They've seen the impact. To me, Joe Biden is doing more campaigning for Trump than Trump is for himself. He's laying the stage for. Here's what happens if you don't elect someone that has our country's real benefits in mind.

Elena Moore
That was a sentiment we heard talking with the other members in that group. It was actually kind of an amazing scene. Sao County Republicans meet in this repurposed old bank in this 300 person town of Rock Springs. Their campaign headquarters is full of campaign posters. There's literally an old bank door still in that space. And so they're talking politics around this, like, pretty amazing, amazing space.

NPR Politics Podcast
So we heard from a Republican in Wisconsin who, you know, obviously is unhappy with President Biden, is a Trump supporter.

At the same time, for Trump supporters who want to get out the vote, want to persuade their fellow voters to support their candidate, there are some challenges on the ground, particularly when you talk about the things coming from Trump and the Trump campaign. Don, what are some of those challenges?

Don Gagne
That is absolutely the case.

We all know Trump's rhetoric by now, and so much of it focuses on 2020 and the lie that the 2020 election was stolen from him and that a lot of the quote unquote fraud that he refers to was rooted in early voting and mail in voting. But when you get on the ground and start talking to these county chairs, they are desperately trying to figure out ways to get more republican voters. Again, these are the republican county chairs to get more republican voters to mail in their votes early to sign up for mail in ballots. They know that that is what they need to do to drive turnout, especially in these boomerang counties. They are trying not to talk about it too much with people and trying to talk about it in a way that doesn't contradict a lot of these voters own beliefs that mail in balloting is the source of all fraud in elections. So they have to kind of elude those differences but still get people to sign up because they need to get those votes in the bank so they can focus their efforts on swing voters or other voters who might need a little extra push to get them to turn out.

NPR Politics Podcast
You know, Elena, this is a unique election. These are two major party candidates who are both extremely well known quantities.

We talked a moment ago about sort of a boomerang voter who's gone back and forth between the parties. But did you meet people who are truly, at this point, still undecided?

Elena Moore
Yeah. And I don't even know if undecided is the right word as much as they just, this isn't what they're focused on. And when they're asked about it, they're like, why are you asking me about this Marissa Flick, who is, you know, a mom to an under two year old son. And she told me she's a caretaker for her sister. And I asked her about politics. And, you know, she kind of just explained that she feels disconnected from it all. She's busy. She's caring for people.

Marissa Flick
I don't really know what to look for.

I feel like every time you see, like, a video of someone, they're always just bashing the other side side, not saying, like, oh, what they're gonna do to make the country better.

Elena Moore
And, you know, she actually voted for Biden. It was her first election four years ago. She voted for Biden. And she admits it was partially because her mom told her to. Her mom is, you know, a Biden voter, a Democrat. And when I said, what do you think this year? She said, I'm not voting because I don't want 80 year old men running our country. She's not interested in the Biden Trump rematch. And I said, is the door closed? And she kind of just shrugged and said, you know, if someone gave me good enough reasons, maybe I would vote for Biden again. And I think that kind of sums it up. Right. Of like if there's a motivator and bring someone to enter into the politics discussion when they're very busy and they have other things going on, that's what could push him there. And it's unclear what that could be for someone like Marissa or other undecided voters in really, really crucial states.

Don Gagne
And that's the thing. I mean, how do you reach a voter who doesn't want to be talked to about the election at this point? Her mother was the main influence on her in the last election. Maybe this time it'll be a friend. Maybe it'll be somebody she knows and trusts, or maybe not. But she is the exact voter that these party officials are going to be trying to find and trying to reach and trying to get a message to.

NPR Politics Podcast
Particularly in a state like Wisconsin.

Elena Moore
Exactly.

NPR Politics Podcast
All right, we're gonna leave it there for today. I'm Sarah McCammon. I cover the presidential campaign.

Elena Moore
I'm Elena Moore. I also cover the presidential campaign.

Don Gagne
I'm Don Gagne. I cover national politics.

NPR Politics Podcast
And thank you for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.

Don Gagne
Wait, wait.

I
Don't tell me isn't just jokes about the week's news. It's also life hacks. For example, here's actor Karen Allen revealing how she got her starring role in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Elena Moore
He said, how well can you spit? And I just found it coming out of my mouth. I said, oh, I can hawk him with the best.

I
I'm Peter Sagel. If you want to increase your self confidence, then listen to the wait, wait, don't tell me podcast from NPR.

Elena Moore
In any great story, there's a moment that sparks your curiosity, tells you there is more to uncover.

How did this happen? How did we get here? That's where embedded comes in. We are NPR's home for documentary journalism, immersive and intimate stories. I was stone cold speechless.

Don Gagne
Nothing will ever, ever, ever be the same here.

Elena Moore
Find embedded wherever you get your podcasts.

The embedded podcast brings you eye opening reporting.

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There's something that hasn't been disclosed yet.

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