Interview: Rep. Andy Kim, D-N.J.

This episode delves into Rep. Andy Kim's unexpected Senate campaign and his reflections on American politics and democracy.

1. Andy Kim's Senate run was a rapid response to perceived corruption and a call for political integrity.
2. Kim emphasizes the crucial need to combat political apathy, which he sees as a threat to democracy.
3. His campaign addresses the broader structural issues like gerrymandering and the influence of dark money.
4. Kim advocates for enhancing civic education and fostering a culture of public service to heal national divides.
5. The episode highlights Kim's efforts to represent and rejuvenate trust in government despite prevailing cynicism.

1: Introduction

Susan Davis introduces the episode and guest, setting the stage for a discussion on Kim’s unexpected Senate campaign and the state of politics. Susan Davis: "I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics, and we're celebrating Juneteenth."

2: The Decision to Run

Kim recounts the moment he decided to run for Senate, propelled by the indictment of Sen. Menendez and a desire to challenge the status quo. Andy Kim: "I called for the senator to step down. I was the first from New Jersey."

3: Campaign Challenges

Discussion on the complexities of New Jersey's political system and Kim's approach to navigating its challenges without traditional campaign infrastructure. Andy Kim: "What would you say if I launched in 3 hours from now?"

4: Political Integrity and Public Trust

Kim discusses the erosion of trust in politics and his legislative efforts to address civic disengagement and misinformation. Andy Kim: "I believe that the opposite of democracy is apathy."

5: Vision for the Senate

Kim shares his broader vision for his role in the Senate, emphasizing humility, strategic planning, and a reform agenda. Andy Kim: "I want to be able to bring a reform agenda. I want to be able to deliver and show that we're trying to fix this."

1. Engage in Civic Education: Enhance your understanding of governmental functions and the importance of civic participation.
2. Foster Public Service: Consider engaging in or supporting initiatives that promote public service and community involvement.
3. Combat Political Apathy: Stay informed and participate in local and national elections to ensure your voice is heard.
4. Promote Integrity in Politics: Support transparency and accountability in governance to rebuild trust in political institutions.
5. Encourage Constructive Dialogue: Engage in respectful conversations across political divides to foster understanding and cooperation.

Rep. Andy Kim, D-N.J., didn't expect to run for the Senate. But when Sen. Bob Menendez was indicted on corruption allegations, he decided to act. In a wide-ranging interview with NPR's Susan Davis, Kim talks about his decision, his political career, and his hopes for the future of American politics.

The podcast is produced by Jeongyoon Han, Casey Morell and Kelli Wessinger. Our intern is Bria Suggs. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi.

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Andy Kim, Susan Davis

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Susan Davis
Hey, there. It's the NPR politics podcast. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics, and we're celebrating Juneteenth. So something a little different today. I recently sat down with New Jersey democratic congressman Andy Kim to talk about his run for Senate. He went from long shot candidate to presumptive frontrunner in a matter of months. And he did it by taking on his own party's power brokers and indicted incumbent Senator Bob Menendez, who's running as an independent while on trial for corruption charges. Kim's also a Democrat who won a district. Donald Trump won twice. So I wanted to get his take on the Senate race and the state of american politics. Congressman Annie Kim, thank you so much for coming in the studio.

Andy Kim
Thanks for having me today.

Susan Davis
I was hoping we could start with you recalling back to the day that you ultimately decided that you were going to jump into the Senate race, because it does seem like it was a jump. This wasn't a big, long thought out, long running plan of yours to get into this race?

Andy Kim
No, it was definitely not. You know, I have a six year old and an eight year old, two little boys.

I was not necessarily thinking I would take on a statewide Senate campaign, but I saw the indictment of Senator Menendez come out. And like many other people across New Jersey, across the country, just, we saw it. And it just, like, it just unfortunately just feeds into this deep distrust that so many people have of government right now, 84% of people in New Jersey believe that their politicians are corrupt.

And it just broke my heart that just, like, another example that's just going to further weaken and make things more toxic. So I just, you know, I called for the senator to step down. I was the first from New Jersey. And I thought maybe that might be the end of my political career, just given how things often go in New Jersey with our machine politics.

But I remember talking to my wife and just thinking through what it is that is our role. Like, what should we do about this, as we're now in a place where I'm a congressman right now.

So we decided to take the plunge and just jump in. I announced my campaign for Senate within 24 hours of the indictment. Not something I planned to do, but it's something I felt compelled to do.

Susan Davis
You basically had no campaign infrastructure set up before you announced you were going to run.

Andy Kim
No. I remember talking to some of my political advisors my past campaign managers, I talked to them and I asked them, like, you know, I'm thinking about doing this. What would you recommend? And many of them said, oh, well, look, we can build out a six week roadmap here. We can have a launch video. We can have a website and a press plan. And I remember just telling them on the phone, like, what would you say if I launched in 3 hours from now?

Susan Davis
What if I hit send on this tweet that I have sitting on my.

Andy Kim
Phone, which is basically, I read, I actually, like, drafted a tweet, which is actually ended up being what I sent off. I didn't get a single minute of sleep that night. You know, I just. I really felt like I had to do something and really show people that, you know, when there's these problems in our politics, that there are people who want to step up and try to fix it. I don't want people to just feel apathetic about the, you know, the distrust in government. I've been saying this line a lot lately where I say I believe that the opposite of democracy is apathy. And I think that apathy grows so strong when people believe that people in politics are corrupt or not in it for the right reasons, just in it for their own ego and their ambition. I work at the Capitol, and I work alongside a lot of people there that are more interested in being social influencers rather than lawmakers.

Susan Davis
Sure.

Andy Kim
So you can see why people feel like this isn't working.

Susan Davis
So you get into this race, and you're running in a state which has this really prescriptive political process, in the way that candidates are endorsed, the way they run, and the way that they appear on the ballot. I'm hoping that you could articulate what the line is to someone who is not from New Jersey and has never seen a ballot that looked like the ones that most voters in New Jersey have seen for generations.

Andy Kim
Yeah, I mean, I think the best way to frame it is just, you know, we're the last statewide machine politics in America. And what that allows is that it allows party leaders to give preferential placement on their ballots for their preferred candidates. And it's designed in a way that's different than 49 other states. New Jersey has their ballots in a unique way, and it's one that is just inherently unfair. The ballot is paid by taxpayers like it is a sacred document. It is not just. It's not some political partisan document owned by political parties.

Susan Davis
Did you benefit, though, from the line ballot in running in your first three campaigns for the house? Like, did. That was the ballot you kind of appeared on for your first campaigns?

Andy Kim
I mean, I didn't have primary challenges for my first few races, so it didn't necessarily have an impact. It could have meant, you know, it could have potentially had an impact if there was someone who maybe thought about running but chose not to because of, you know, the line issue on that front.

But, yeah, look, I mean, you know, it is. It is a system that I didn't really fully understand when I first came into politics because, you know, that's just a ballad. I knew I didn't fully understand, like, how different it was. I took the step of filing a lawsuit, and that was, I'll tell you, very scary. It was nerve wracking.

Susan Davis
I imagine that made a lot of people mad in the state of some.

Andy Kim
Still quite upset at me. But it was the right thing to do, and it was important to take on and show that this type of entrenched power doesn't need to continue on, that this is not something that allows for people to have the kind of say in their politics that they deserve to have. In New Jersey, what was your message.

Susan Davis
To people that was resonating and was part of it? Like, this whole system stinks. Like there's an element of having a senator under indictment, a ballot system that seems like, intended to protect the people in power. And Nepo baby politics, of having the governor's wife run. It seemed like just the right sort of stew to be able to make the average Joe voter be like, something here isn't right.

Andy Kim
So I think a lot of people felt what I felt, just deep frustration and disappointment in our politics and that it needs to change.

It just cannot. And it's not just about the senator. I mean, people, you know, I've been feeling this for a while, and that's why I stepped up the run. Deep problems structurally of gerrymandering or, you know, big money and dark money and citizens United decision and the filibuster, all these structural things that we get so frustrated about. And I think I was able to channel that frustration. Cause I feel it, too.

Susan Davis
I think about this mistrust thing a lot, as I think, to your point, like, right now, there's so much mistrust, not just in government, but almost in, like, your fellow Americans, like, the polarization and people don't trust you. They don't trust me.

Andy Kim
Right.

Susan Davis
They don't trust government. They don't trust the media. If you had, like, a magic wand, right? Like, if you had unilateral power to try to improve that situation. Like, where do you put your focus? Like, how do you think you start to build that back? And is it something you can legislate, or is it something that you just have to demonstrate?

Andy Kim
Well, there's no single piece of legislation I can write that'll immediately fix this and rid the world. I mean, part of this is an unraveling of what I see happening in our democracy, that we're losing touch with the idea that we're part of something bigger than all of us, that there's some commonality there. You know, the motto above the Oval Office and the Capitol dome is e pluribus unum out of many, one. But we've getten to the point where it's like, out of many, many, like, we're not finding that common thread anymore. And it's demonstrated by the fact that 50% of Americans surveyed believe that people in the other political party are the enemy. They're like, they'll use that word, enemy. And I think that's so dangerous.

Susan Davis
I do, too. I think it's scary.

Andy Kim
Yeah. I mean, that's what allows for January 6 to happen. You know, if you think that other people are the enemy, if you don't have respect for our institutions, that's why you can feel like you can smash the windows and smash the doors of our capital, because you don't respect what's happening there. You know, so, like, it's not easy. I mean, a couple things is just, you know, definitely, you know, deep disinformation that we're seeing right now. And as someone who represented a district Trump won twice, having to work and engage with a lot of people that voted for Trump, you know, I would engage and listen to them. I would do town halls, and, you know, I'd hear a lot of things that I felt like I would ask them, like, where are you getting this information?

Number two is like, I think that we do need to reinvigorate civics education in this country. You know, just a lot of people really struggling to understand what is actually happening down here in DC and what are the roles, like, what we should be trying to hold our elected officials to do in terms of their jobs. I've also introduced legislation that would try to build a national service program, architecture, to try to reinvigorate.

I really do believe, and this is something that after January 6, people ask me, like, are you going to continue to be in politics? Are you going to do this? And I said, yes, I'm actually going to now dedicate my life to trying to solve and address one singular question, which is, how do we heal this country? And I don't know the full answer right now, but I think a big part of that is that we need to reignite and inspire a new era of public service in this country. You know, we need another, you know, ask not what your country can do for you kind of moment in America to try to counteract, you know, this unraveling that is happening right now.

Susan Davis
Ok, let's take a quick break and more with Congressman Kim when we get back.

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Susan Davis
And we're back. Prior to getting into the Senate race, you did have a viral moment of that picture of you picking up trash in the Capitol after January 6. And did it surprise you how much that image resonated with people?

Andy Kim
It did. I didn't even realize I was being photographed.

I originally didn't want to talk about it because what I did was not heroic. It was what I hoped any american would do in that situation.

But I did come to realize I started receiving literally thousands of handwritten letters from people from all over the country. Many of them had never heard of me before.

And I think I realized that on a day where people saw such horrible images of things we never thought we would see, surreal images about that that really made people worry about the decline of american democracy, I think it was refreshing for people to be reminded that there is still decency in public service and people who are trying to do this work.

I remember when the Smithsonian called me and asked me if they could have the suit that I was wearing, the blue suit that I was wearing.

I remember telling them, like, you know, it's just a off the rack J. Crew suit.

Susan Davis
Joshe bank.

Andy Kim
Yeah. You know, I got a half off during the holidays. But, you know, if it can help tell the story of recovery and resilience and try to embody some of the values that I think are important, I'm happy to play a role and in trying to promote that, because I really do think that this problem that we're facing right now as a country is deep to the bone and that it really gets to this fundamental question of what does it mean to be an american? What is it that we are trying to do together? And we saw how collective action crumbled during the pandemic and other things. I think we're at a really difficult moment, and I really do believe that the next four to five years are going to shape the next four to five decades of this country. And I think that a lot of people are worried about whether or not we have people in government that can try to help steer us through these tumultuous periods. And I hope that what I'm trying to do and what others that I respect in government are trying to do gives people a sense that we can't disengage, we can't withdraw, that we have to be able to lean in.

Susan Davis
I'm glad you brought up identity, because one of the things I read when I was, you know, catching up on things for this interview is talking about identity, because if you win the Senate, you would be the first korean american senator.

Andy Kim
Yeah. And I'd be the first asian American in the Senate from the east coast of America. So I'm starting to conceptualize what this means.

Susan Davis
Well, it was, I think, and I don't want, I wanted to ask you about it because I don't want to mischaracterize what you were saying, but that it was like, for a lot of your life, when people would talk about your identity, you would identify as an american first, but that being a Korean American also matters in terms of having a seat at the table and we talk. Identity politics are part of this tension that's happening in America right now. And I wonder how you sort of where you are with that, how you identify and how people who are maybe not white and male should have this space in politics.

Andy Kim
Yeah. When I first started to run for Congress in 2017. I had a number of people, including in my party, tell me I was wasting my time. My district was about 85% white, less than 3% asian that voted for Trump. And they're just like, there's no way you're going to win this.

And so I thought a lot about this. What identity politics means. What does it mean that this 85% white district that voted for Trump twice has now three times elected a Korean American Democrat to be their voice in Congress. And that gives me some hope that actually we can get through this. And it gives me a sense of roadmap of how to build that. And I want my six year old and my eight year old to grow up in an America where, you know, where I, you know, me or other Asian Americans, we can represent not just asian american heavy areas of America, but we have every bit as much right to represent anywhere in this country. And I don't want other people determining what I am or am not capable of accomplishing simply because of the color of my skin and my last name. So that sense of identity that is unraveling, I do feel like a lot of what needs to knit it back together is about that sense of engagement with one another that we're losing touch with. When it comes to just interacting online and social media, we're losing communal space and civic space out there, and, you know, different ways to be able to interact with one another. We're losing touch with just how to interact with each other, with a sense of respect. But it does require a level of investment and engagement. And the way I sort of describe it here is it requires a certain amount of acceptance of discomfort in one's life, like, in politics in particular. Like, if you're only having comfortable conversations out there with people, it means you're not talking to all the people you need to talk to.

But a lot of times, people want to just, you know, kind of surround themselves with those that already agree with them.

Susan Davis
And most lawmakers live in very safe bubbles.

Progressive Insurance
Right?

Andy Kim
Yeah. That's part of the problems of January.

Susan Davis
That's very blue, and most Republicans are in red.

Andy Kim
Yeah. In 2020, I was one of only seven Democrats in the country that won a district Trump won. There were about, what, 223 Democrats in the House of Representatives. Only seven of us won. District Trump won. It requires you to go out and try to listen to people and actually engage and not section off. So I really try to encourage people, you know, it's okay to feel discomfort. It's okay to be uncomfortable when you're talking with people, but you can still respect them and still engage with that.

Susan Davis
Let's assume for the sake of this argument that you win in November, which, you know, we can't be predictive, but you'll well positioned assuming that you win on the primary, you get to the Senate, what do you want to do there?

Andy Kim
Yeah, you know, I can't say I necessarily already have a vision. You know, I think the kind of politics I practice, if there's one word I try to associate, it's humility. I try to come into my work. You know, I don't have all the answers. I don't know exactly how to build and navigate all this, but I hope to be somebody that can bring some strategic vision and planning, you know, try to push the horizon of what it is that we're trying to do. Like, the way I sort of described is like, what does success look like for America? Like, what would we say 2030 years from now? Like, oh, that. That's what we want to achieve, you know, and be able to build towards. I want to be able to bring a reform agenda. I want to be able to deliver and show that we're trying to fix this. And I'm excited. Like I said, I think there's a hunger in this country for a new generation of leadership to step up. I would be, you know, 42 years old when sworn in. I think it's valuable to have the perspective of young parents in the Senate, in our government, to bring a lot of other types of diversity to that mix.

Susan Davis
Do you think that the people of New Jersey are ready to have two senators who are known for just being very polite and nice? Because that kind of goes against the stereotype of your state. And I can say that as a philadelphian born and raised.

Andy Kim
Yeah, yeah.

You know, I think, I think people are ready for something different, and I think we can really show that maybe it was that type of kind of brash and aggressive and machine politics, maybe that was the outlier this whole time rather than us.

Susan Davis
Congressman, thank you so much for coming in.

Andy Kim
Thanks for having me.

Susan Davis
That's all for today. We'll be back in your feeds tomorrow. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. And thanks for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.

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Susan Davis
Dark themes, but in a rare interview on wild card this week, he says he's remarkably content. And you can be, too.

Andy Kim
We're supposed to be like little dogs where our tail is wagging and being happy, little smiles on our face all day long. This is the way it's supposed to be.

Susan Davis
I'm Rachel Martin. Join us on NPR's Wild Card podcast, the game where cards control the conversation.