Biden Struggled, Trump Often Lied, CNN Didn't Fact-Check

This episode dissects the presidential debate performances of Joe Biden and Donald Trump, focusing on their respective strategies and the absence of real-time fact-checking by CNN.

1. Joe Biden's performance did not meet expectations, impacting his support among Democrats.
2. Donald Trump's portrayal of a dire America resonated with his base but was off-putting to moderate voters.
3. CNN’s lack of fact-checking during the debate may have allowed misinformation to spread.
4. The debate's format, which lacked real-time checks, potentially misled viewers about the candidates' true stances.
5. Public perception of debates might be overly influenced by viral moments rather than substantive policy discussions.

1: Opening Remarks

Overview of the debate's impact and initial reactions, with a focus on Biden's struggle to reassure voters about his capabilities. Mara Liasson: "Joe Biden didn't even surpass the low expectations that had been set for him."

2: Trump's Campaign Strategy

Discussion on how Trump's messaging targets his base with a grim outlook of current U.S. conditions, possibly affecting his broader appeal. Stephen Fowler: "Trump's vision for America...is just this dire doom and gloom vision."

3: CNN's Moderation Strategy

Critique of CNN’s decision to not fact-check during the debate, questioning the overall effectiveness of the debate format. Mara Liasson: "The vast majority of claims he made were demonstrable lies."

4: Aftermath and Public Perception

Reflections on the debate's long-term impact on voters and the potential consequences of the media's portrayal of the debate. Stephen Fowler: "Debates typically don't move the needle. This one could be different."

1. Evaluate Sources Critically: Always cross-check debate claims with multiple reliable sources to avoid misinformation.
2. Stay Informed: Follow multiple media outlets for a broader perspective on political events.
3. Engage in Political Discussions: Use debates as a starting point for deeper discussions on policies and candidate positions.
4. Understand Media Bias: Recognize the influence of media biases in shaping public perception and learn to identify them.
5. Participate in Democracy: Stay engaged in the political process, ensuring your decisions are well-informed by factual content.

President Biden fumbled in the CNN Presidential Debate, offering often rambling answers in a hoarse and quiet voice. Donald Trump, who also rambled, painted a characteristically dark vision of the country and repeatedly lied about his and Biden's records — which went largely unchallenged by CNN's moderators.

This episode: voting correspondent Ashley Lopez, campaign reporter Stephen Fowler, and senior national political correspondent Mara Liasson.

The podcast is produced by Casey Morell and Kelli Wessinger. Our intern is Bria Suggs. Our editor is Eric McDaniel. Our executive producer is Muthoni Muturi.

People

Joe Biden, Donald Trump

Companies

CNN

Books

None

Guest Name(s):

None

Content Warnings:

None

NPR
This message comes from NPR. Sponsor the Nature Conservancy. By working across communities, oceans and isles, the nature conservancy is delivering solutions for the planet and building a future where people and nature thrive. Learn more@nature.org solutions.

Madeline
This is madeline here with my dad, Jon. And we're missing the presidential debate tonight to see the Rolling Stones in Chicago. This podcast was recorded at 11:32 p.m. eastern time on Thursday, June 27, 2024. Things may have changed by the time you hear it.

Mara Liasson
And here's the show.

Ooh, congratulations.

Madeline
That's much more fun. Good for them.

Hey, there. It's the NPR Politics podcast. I'm Ashley Lopez. I cover voting.

Stephen Fowler
I'm Stephen Fowler. I cover the campaign.

Mara Liasson
And I'm Mara Liasson, senior national political correspondent.

Madeline
The CNN presidential debate has now concluded. You can hear Steven in the spin room with his ambient noise back there. And I want to go ahead and talk about what stood out to both of you. Mara, let's start with you, though. What stood out to you from tonight.

Mara Liasson
What stood out for me was that Joe Biden didn't even surpass the low expectations that had been set for him. And I've never gotten such a stream of texts from heartbroken and panicked Democrats as I have tonight.

The reason this race has been so close is not because Donald Trump has been outperforming or overperforming his numbers from 2020. It's because Biden has been underperforming his numbers from 2020. And he called for this debate. He asked for it to shake up the race. And his performance in the debate failed to do that from the start, from the very start, the first 30 seconds, because his bottom line, his number one job tonight was to show people who were worried that he was too old, that he was up to the job, and he failed. Here's a pretty early on example of.

Joe Biden
That, making sure that we're able to make every single, solitary person eligible for what I've been able to do with the COVID excuse me, with dealing with everything we have to do with, look, if we finally beat Medicare.

Donald Trump
Thank you, President Biden. President Trump.

Madeline
Yeah, a combination of hard to hear and hard to follow is not good.

Steven, what stood out to you during tonight's debate?

Unidentified
Yeah.

Stephen Fowler
And so I'm sitting here in the spin room where right now the surrogates from both campaigns are being mobbed by cameras and reporters and questions about everything that just happened in the last 2 hours or so. The thing that stood out to me is something that I've seen time and time and time again on the campaign trail, is that Trump's vision for America, how he's attacking Joe Biden and how he's painting his presidential run this time is just this dire doom and gloom vision. I mean, to hear Trump tell America is in shambles right now, and it will maybe cease to exist if he's not elected again. And I think that's something that has resonated and really rooted itself in the psyche of the Republican Party right now. And it's something that is very motivating for a very, very devoted base of his. But it's also something that is off putting to more moderate voters, to people who, you know, don't necessarily feel like they can't walk outside of their door because everything is terrible under Joe Biden's economy. And I think in a bit of a contrarian take from Maura, I think Biden's performance was not great at the beginning. Overall, still not that great. But I don't think in the long run it is going to matter as much as what Trump is saying and doing is presenting himself because, I mean, remember, part of the reason that Joe Biden won the first time was because he was not Donald Trump. And that's kind of what we're seeing in this rematch here in 2024.

Mara Liasson
Yeah. And look, if voters are trying to decide between the guy that they think is too old and the guy they think is too dangerous, I don't think that Trump necessarily quieted their concerns tonight. He certainly came off as more vigorous than Biden did, but he didn't pivot to offering a positive vision for the future. He still came off as angry. And even though the moderators didn't fact check at all during this debate, I would say the vast majority of claims he made were demonstrable lies.

Stephen Fowler
And, Mara, I would also say that in this fog of war, immediately after the debate, there's a lot of hot takes, there's a lot of thoughts. There's a lot of people texting and tweeting and everythinging saying 25th Amendment now, or we need a brokered convention, or, you know, but what is going to be important is what trickles down, not just to the pundits and the reporters and the people shaping the coverage of this campaign, but to those people that are maybe on the fence about voting or the people that still could conceivably choose between the two candidates or a third party candidate or not voting at all. You know, if you look at things in isolation, for example, the comments at the end of the debate were very different than the beginning of the debate. And so I think it's still too early to say what effect this is going to have. I will say, though, debates typically don't move the needle. This one, in this election year with these two candidates, could be different.

Mara Liasson
Yeah. And, you know, when you talk about the things that trickle down to voters and really stick with them about debates, they're those moments that become viral. They're the memes. And there were just a lot of camera shots of Joe Biden with his mouth open, and when he talked, he sounded like a desiccated husk. Those are things that are going to be replayed ad nauseam on social media, and they might be the things that voters end up remembering because they're just going to hear about them so much.

Madeline
Yeah. And, you know, I try to watch the debate at times through the lens of, like, the kind of voter that Steven just described, like someone who might be on the fence, maybe unsure of how to vote, and hasn't really been paying that much attention to the election up until now, which I think is a lot of voters. This was an opportunity for both Trump and Biden to make a pitch to those voters to provide maybe some clarity on big issues, policy wise, that the country is facing. And I gotta say, I don't know how anyone walked away from this debate with, like, a better picture, specifically on policy. Some really important issues were brought up, like inflation and child care costs. And I don't know, I didn't hear many lucid, clear policy proposals. And, I mean, a lot of this got mired in, like, kind of tangential conversations. Like, I mean, what was that conversation about? About Gulf. I mean, I can't even. How is this, in the 90 minutes we have to debate the future of this country? How is this taking up this much time? It was really, it was really kind of striking to me.

Stephen Fowler
You know, there's the hypothetical meme about, oh, what does the average voter in a diner in the midwest think about this? I mean, honestly, they might talk about the bickering back and forth over the golf scores and who's more physically fit, but honestly, not in a good way for the future of democracy, which also was a topic of discussion.

Madeline
And we're definitely going to talk more about that soon. For now, a quick break. More in a second.

Unidentified
This message comes from Schwab. With Schwab investing themes, it's easy to invest in ideas you believe in, like online music and videos, artificial intelligence, electric vehicles and more, Schwab's research uncovers emerging trends. Then their technology curates relevant stocks into over 40 themes to choose from. Schwab investing themes is not intended to be investment advice or a recommendation of any stock or investment strategy. Visit schwab.com thematicinvesting this message comes from NPR sponsor Saatva. This year, many Americans will make a decision that will affect them for years to come. The which mattress to choose? SaAtva luxury mattresses are meticulously handcrafted to lull you to sleep and to keep you sleeping soundly. And they cost a fraction of the price of retail. Visit s Aatva.com NPR to save $200 on orders of $1,000 or more.

NPR
Support for NPR and the following message come from the American Cancer Society. Doctor Alpa Patel leads a team that researches cancer risk factors, and she shares one reason this work is so important.

Alpa Patel
We need to know what's the optimal way that you would dose physical activity just like you might a medicine. And without research to be able to understand that, we can't maximize the benefits of physical activity for cancer prevention.

NPR
To learn more, go to cancer.org dot.

Madeline
And we're back, and I want to pivot to talking about the moderators, Jake Tapper and Dana Bash. There seems to have been a choice made by CNN to let the candidates speak and not interrupt them, even to offer sort of basic fact checking. Steven, can you talk to me about the kind of position this put specifically Biden in, but also how this kind of framed the debate?

Stephen Fowler
It's never easy to wrangle a live debate. It was definitely a choice during this debate to just let the two candidates largely go and largely say things that weren't true and largely just let it happen and let it ride. What this does is it doesn't really give people a sense of what's actually true about these major topics like immigration, about the economy. I mean, both Biden and Trump said things that weren't true. But if you're listening to that in real time, which, let's be honest, most people aren't, it allows them to fudge the record a little bit and kind of create moments that aren't as grounded in truth and reality. And it's honestly another negative against the utility of debates because you don't get their stances. And as another point, along with the fact checking element of this, there were plenty of times where Trump and Biden were asked questions and re asked questions that they just decided not to answer.

Mara Liasson
Right. And voters will have to decide how important those non answers are, such as the times that Trump was asked, would you accept the results of the election even if you don't win? And he refused.

Jake Tapper
Will you pledge tonight that once all legal challenges have been exhausted, that you will accept the results of this election regardless of who wins, and you will say right now that political violence in any form is unacceptable?

Donald Trump
Well, I shouldn't have to say that, but of course, I believe that it's totally unacceptable. And if you would see my statements that I made on Twitter at the time and also my statement that I made in the Rose Garden, you would say it's one of the strongest statements you've ever seen, in addition to the speech I made of in front of, I believe, the largest crowd I've ever spoken to. And I will tell you, nobody ever talks about that. They talk about a relatively small number of people that went to the Capitol.

Mara Liasson
Donald Trump has never said since 2015 that he would accept the results of an election that he lost. He said it all. It depends if it's fair. Fair according to him. But I do think, Stephen, we have to be fair. They both said things that weren't true, but there's no comparison between the number of lies, flagrant lies that Trump told compared to Biden. To say that he was responsible for insulin coming down to $35 is just false. And there were, like, dozens of other things. But I agree with you. The fact that the moderators decided not to fact check helped Donald Trump because he's the one for whom lying is a superpower. Unchallenged lies are even a bigger superpower. And the other thing that helped Trump was the new rules of shutting off mics after your time is up. In 2020, Trump probably was perceived to have lost the debate where he continuously interrupted Biden. But this time, the microphones being shut off gave him a kind of discipline that he might not have brought on his own.

Stephen Fowler
And, Mara, this is where I think I go back to my takeaway of the debate and why I think that it might be a little bit different than how it's playing out in the immediate aftermath. Trump's core identity of his 2024 campaign is this doom and gloom vision of America. But Biden and the Democrats are painting their campaign and his candidacy as this defense of democracy, as, look what Trump might do if he's elected again. And, you know, Trump's response to 2020 and January 6 and the other things that we heard in the debate has been consistent, like you said. And I think I, that's what Biden is trying to hammer home, that Trump doesn't respect democracy. He's going to stomp all over the constitution if he's elected. He's already done it once, he'll do it again. That I think might ultimately win out with the right voters.

Mara Liasson
Well, with that tiny slice of persuadable voters now, you know, 70% of Republicans, of course, think Trump won in 2020. And they say that democracy is a very big concern for them, but they define it quite differently. But I think what's going to happen in the near term is there's going to be a tremendous amount of attention on democrats.

Madeline
Which brings me to my next question, which is like, also in the somewhat future, Mara, there's supposed to be another debate scheduled.

Mara Liasson
Well, that's a good question. Will there be one? Because Donald Trump certainly doesn't need one. Joe Biden needed this one, but he didn't get what he needed, and I don't know if there'll be another one.

Madeline
Yeah, definitely something to watch. All right. Let's leave it there for today. We'll be back in your feeds Friday afternoon with our usual roundup. And, of course, let it go. I'm Ashley Lopez. I cover voting.

Stephen Fowler
I'm Steven Fowler. I cover the campaign.

Mara Liasson
And I'm Mara Liasson, senior national political correspondent.

Madeline
And thank you, as always, for listening to the NPR Politics podcast.

NPR
This message comes from NPR sponsor Allianz Travel Insurance. Whether you're planning a weekend away or an international adventure, alltrips annual travel insurance can protect every trip you take for the next 365 days. Get a quote@alianstravelinsurance.com.

Unidentified
Dot support for NPR and the following message come from Ixl Online. Is your child asking questions on their homework you don't feel equipped to answer? IXL learning uses advanced algorithms to give the right help to each kid, no matter the age or personality. One subscription gets you everything. One site for all the kids in your home, pre k to 12th grade, make an impact on your child's learning. Get Ixl now. And NPR listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today@ixl.com. npregh.