What She SAW in That Locker Room | Riley Gaines x Megyn Kelly

Megyn Kelly
Welcome to the Megyn Kelly SHow, live on SiriusXM Channel 111 every weekday at noon east.

Hey, everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly SHow, coming to you live from SiriusXM HQ in New York City. Today we have a first time guest to the show, which I cannot believe, and one you surely know. It's Riley Gaines. Yay.

She is a former collegiate swimmer at the very, very top of her game. She rose to fame after she. Well, she placed fifth in the NCAA finals, and she tied with a man, Leah Thomas, who was posing as a woman and was allowed to compete with the women and entered her women's race, not to mention her women's locker room. And she and the other women were told to just deal with it or they'd be labeled as bigots.

But Riley did not stay quiet. She left a career behind that she hadn't entirely planned for herself, to fight for fairness in women's sports, even though she'd left them, she understood about the young women coming up behind her. She continues to lead the charge today and works to implement change across the country for your daughter and mine. Today, she's here to share her story in a new book that goes into her childhood, the unfair advantage transgender athletes have, and her advice for not just women and girls, but everyone. The book is called swimming against the current. Fighting for common sense in a world that's lost its mind. And it's out tomorrow. Okay, Riley Gaines, swimming against the current. Please support her. This is her first interview on the book. I'm so happy to meet you.

Riley Gaines
I feel like I know you. Of course, you have been at the forefront of this issue, a voice that I constantly look to. So I am a huge fan. Like I said, I can't believe we haven't done this sooner, but I'm thrilled to be in this chair next to you.

Megyn Kelly
Thank you. And, you know, your story helped activate me on all of this, because while I was speaking out and I'd had a change of heart from where I used to be, it was when you got attacked in San Francisco that, I mean, for the first time in my life, I said, I might need a forum, like a 501 c three I might like, because, you know, as a journalist, you're not used to being an activist. I don't really like that word, but I couldn't believe what they did to you. As a woman who has standing to speak about this issue, as a woman who was directly affected by a man competing in her sport at the highest level, and they treated you like a villain. You were literally assaulted. How pivotal was that moment for you? Because I know you write about it in the book.

Riley Gaines
It was a huge defining moment for me.

Up until that point, I kind of just figured I would speak to this issue, say my piece, speak about the unfairness of the competition, the locker room, the silencing that we face, but swiftly move on. This is not something that I ever wanted to do. I still don't necessarily want to be doing with my life.

But when I was ambushed, I mean, I was being shoved, I was being pushed. I was punched in the face by these men wearing dresses, which fortunately for me, their punches really don't hurt that bad.

They held me for ransom throughout the night. I mean, 4 hours held me for ransom, demanding that if I wanted to make it home to see my family safely again, I had to pay them money.

You might be wondering, okay, well, where are the police?

It's San Francisco. The police were being held for ransom with me. It was a wild experience, and it was in that moment I realized, oh, my gosh, this is what we're up against. And let's be very clear.

My message from the beginning has been that there are two sexes.

You can't change your sex, and each sex is deserving of equal opportunity, privacy and safety. Nothing controversial, nothing hateful. I mean, it's really the bare minimum what I'm advocating for. But for saying that the amount of vitriol and violence that I was met with, that's when I was really reassured that what I was speaking to was in fact the right thing, the fair thing, just moral, ethical thing.

Megyn Kelly
What was the name of the university again?

Riley Gaines
San Francisco State University.

Megyn Kelly
We pulled the tape just to refresh the audience.

It was bad. Here's a little.

The mob's chasing her.

Riley Gaines
I'm coming. I'm good.

Megyn Kelly
I'm good.

Oh, my God.

Riley Gaines
So that's only a snippet of what I endured for hours. Hours, hundreds of these protesters, again, so disorienting at that, because they come in the room, that's after I had been escorted, kind of carried off out of the room after having already been ambushed. But they come in the room, they turn the lights off, rush to the front. The lights are flickering before they're indefinitely turned off. Again. Men in dresses running at me, women with beards. I was so confused.

Megyn Kelly
Oh, my gosh.

Riley Gaines
Incredibly disorienting. And again, that's what I endured for hours. Some of the most heinous, profane things you could possibly imagine being said were said to me. They were yelling at the officers calling the officers racist pigs for protecting a white girl like me, for ours.

Megyn Kelly
That chant, trans women are women is behind all of the problems we're seeing. That they believe that's true and we don't. We know it isn't.

Riley Gaines
That's the whole premise of the entire gender ideology debate. So whether it's the sports side, whether it's what we see in corporate America, whether it's the medicalization side of things, that's the premise of the whole debate. And we spend so much of our time on this issue saying or hearing trans women are women. But it only seems like it goes one way, especially in sports and prisons in different places. We don't hear of women identifying as men, infiltrating into men's spaces. No, this is only happening one way.

Megyn Kelly
I know you went. Our audience may remember we covered the Kappa Kappa gamma lawsuit.

They claimed that this man, biological man, well, we know that he got into Kappa Kappa Gamma out in Wyoming, and a bunch of the sorority sisters objected, and they objected mostly to their own sorority allowing it. And then they filed a lawsuit against Kappa Kappa Gamma national saying, you've changed the definition on us. You've done a bait and switch. You said we were only going to allow women, and now you haven't. You've allowed a man. And you went to the arguments that that simple concept of what is a woman, does it include more than women?

Is now being argued in front of the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals. That's one step down from the US Supreme Court. And they were really wrestling with it.

Riley Gaines
Well, we shouldn't be surprised, considering when a sitting Supreme Court justice was asked this question, what is a woman? By Tennessee Senator Marsha Blackburn? She said, well, I can't answer that because I'm not a biologist.

Well, guess what, Ketanji Brown Jackson. I'm not a biologist.

I guess thinking of an analogy here, I'm not a veterinarian either, but I know what a dog is. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. And it's no surprise that this is the same Supreme Court justice who recently said she felt like our first amendment rights were hamstringing the government.

Precisely. That's precisely what our first amendment rights are supposed to do. But nonetheless, it was wild to sit in that court. They pulled a panel of judges, three judges.

One was a Biden appointee, one was a Clinton appointee, one was an Obama appointee. So they.

Megyn Kelly
That's a nightmare.

Riley Gaines
It's like some sort of like, joke, like you walk into a bar. And this is your scenario, but that's what the girls drew. So we don't know the verdict yet, but I'm not overly hopeful, just based on the panel of judges. But to sit there and listen to the Kappa attorney say that woman has multiple definitions. It's not a word. With one. Singular definitions, it can mean anything. She was even then pushed back by the Biden appointee judge, who said, okay, well, if you're sitting here telling us that woman can mean anything, does that include the definition of cisgender? Men. Men who identify as men. Is that a reasonable definition for women? To what she responded back with, I don't have enough research right now to tell you if a male who identifies as a male, if that's a reasonable definition for the word woman, it's a.

Megyn Kelly
Promising thing that the judge. That the judge pushed back a little. I mean, she's recognizing that there must be some limitations, 100% on how we define it. But I don't have high hopes. I mean, the 10th Circuit normally is not the most liberal court in the country, but I don't have high hopes. I do have high hopes for this Supreme Court. I realize the audience is thinking gorsuch, title seven. He said, you have to be able to hire trans people. But that, I do think, is very different from this issue. Totally, totally. It's just very different. I do not like the chances of the trans activists if cases like this go up to the high court.

Riley Gaines
I agree.

The Supreme Court hasn't heard a title IX case yet. There's a couple, I think, that are on the docket that could hopefully get there. And I say hopefully because I am in full agreeance with you. I think the Supreme Court would rule in our favor on this, that they would understand that sex based categories and protections and rights are necessary when, again, opportunities are threatened, when privacy or safety are threatened.

Megyn Kelly
How do you think about that, Riley? So if the Supreme Court were so to rule, or if we just had complete sanity reign at the Olympic level, at the NCAA level.

I know. I've read the stories in the book about your dad. You don't look backward. You only look forward. But how do you think it would make you feel as somebody who actually came up in the time of madness, in the time where we were forcing young women to deal with this?

Riley Gaines
Well, it's wild to me that so much of what we see now by the Biden administration, this new title IX rewrite from the administration and the Department of Education, not to mention all of the other things, whether it's the sports issue or not that they're doing under the guise of progress, right. Indicating we are moving in the positive forward direction.

Let's be very clear.

What we are seeing is not progress. This is regressive. It's taking us back in time at least half a century. Title IX was implemented in 1972, so 52 years ago.

That's what we're going back to. By asking women to smile, to step aside, to allow these men onto our podiums, telling us that we're the problem if we don't want to or feel totally comfortable undressing next to a fully naked, fully intact man. That's not what progress that actually happened.

Megyn Kelly
To you, that you were at the NCAA championships where Leah Thomas was present, who was 550 something as a man, but was coming in fifth in your race, quote, as a woman, you had to change in a locker room with him.

Riley Gaines
That's right.

Megyn Kelly
Fully intact. And there was no surgery.

Riley Gaines
Fully intact? No, not at the time. I don't know now, but no, not at the time. And keep in mind, we knew going into this meet, this was in March of 2022. We found out a couple weeks before the meet, the NCAA, of course, they were pandering back and forth, sitting on the fence. Do we let him compete with the women? Do we not? Ultimately, they just. They decided, like, three weeks before they announced that his. His participation in the women's category was non negotiable. So we knew we would be competing against him.

We did not know we would be changing in the locker room. There was no forewarning. There was no ways that we could have made other arrangements for ourselves if this was something that we felt uncomfortable with the first time that we became aware we would be undressing next to this six foot, 422 year old man, fully intact, fully exposing himself, was when we were inches away from said man, fully exposing himself.

Megyn Kelly
Oh, my gosh.

Riley Gaines
And I'll kind of set the scene because a swimming locker room, it's not a place of modesty. These suits that you put on, I mean, they're skin tight, they're paper thin. It takes about 1520 minutes, your racing suit, to really poke and prod yourself into these suits, 20 minutes of which you're fully exposed, very intimate. You have friends oftentimes helping you get yourself into these suits. Then I think we can all agree, you know, a locker room is not a comfortable place.

But growing up a swimmer, you almost become comfortable feeling vulnerable in that environment.

But I want you to put yourself in our shoes, or your daughter in our shoes.

You have your back turned again, putting on your suit, and all of a sudden, you hear a man's voice in that locker room.

You turn around, you look up because he's so tall, and there's a six foot four man undressing, taking off his women's swimsuit, and putting on his street clothes.

Megyn Kelly
Wow.

Riley Gaines
It's feelings of. Of course, it's awkward. It's embarrassing, it's uncomfortable. It was innate, inherent for every girl in that changing space to cover themselves, whether it was with their hand or their clothes or their towels, and to get out as quickly as they could.

But I think the best way to describe how we felt was, I mean, it was an utter violation. It felt like betrayal. And really, it was traumatic, and not even just traumatic because of what we were forced to see or how we were forcibly exploited. It was traumatic for me to know just how easy it was for those people who created these policies, enforced these policies, to totally dismiss our rights to privacy without even a second thought, without even bare minimum for warning us that this would be the arrangement.

Megyn Kelly
And when you think back about the messaging, before he got to u, he was swimming with the UPenn swimmers on their team.

And those girls had quietly tried to raise objections because they'd been going through this all season and were told they needed therapy to work on their bigotry.

Riley Gaines
They were told they were the problem. 16 of the girls signed on to an email to University of Pennsylvania. Some of these girls, even victims, previous victims, survivors of sexual assault. I know of one girl who was raped in a bathroom setting prior to going to college, and so this was understandably a very triggering and traumatic experience for her. And so 16 signed on to the school expressing their discomfort in the locker room, to which the school. I swear I have a screenshot of the email. The school responded back with, if you feel uncomfortable seeing male genitalia, here are some counseling resources that you should seek in an attempt to re educate yourselves. They had to go to mandatory LGBTQ education meetings weekly to learn about how, just by being cisgender, they were oppressing Leah Thomas.

Their school even went as far as to tell these girls that if they did speak out and any harm whatsoever were to come towards Thomas way, whether it was physical harm, mental harm, emotional harm, self inflicted, for that matter, they said, then understand, you girls are solely responsible, and that would make you responsible for a potential death, and that would make you a murderer.

Megyn Kelly
Oh, my gosh.

Riley Gaines
And you don't want to be a murderer, do you? No. So I suggest you be kind, and I suggest you be inclusive.

Megyn Kelly
This is so stomach turning. Just to hear you describe it is deeply alarming because it's happening right now to much younger girls too. Not that it was easy at the college level, but you and I both know it's happening to ten year olds, to twelve year olds who don't have any sort of maturity yet to deal with this kind of a thing. And not for nothing, but there is no question in my mind and in the minds of many experts on this issue that it's not normal in any way for an actual gender confused person, an actual trans person, to show off his penis in a women's locker room. The people who make up the 2% of trans people who are legitimately gender confused and have been since birth and have lived their lives like that, they don't want you to see their penis. They're actually trying to hide that and to blend in with women. People who do what Leah Thomas did tend to be overwhelmingly autogonophiles, who are aroused sexually by dressing as women and being around women while they're pretending to be women. 100%. And so the odds of this guy getting off on the fact that you were uncomfortable are extremely high.

Riley Gaines
100%. And yeah, to your point, which I haven't really thought of it this way, but it's such a good point, because someone who is gender dysphoric, they're so uncomfortable with their own body that they would never expose themselves, never in the open in that way, because they're dysphoric about that. Right.

That was not the case with Leah Thomas, which he's actually been on social media and liked posts and commented on posts and reposted things that say he is an AGP.

Megyn Kelly
Oh, they're very dark. Oh, I mean, they make it very clear. The daily wire did a whole expose on it, pardon the pun, and it was deeply alarming. And we've invited Leah Thomas to come on the show and talk to us about it and deny it if he wants to. He hasn't taken us up on that. No, but what we're doing to our young girls, it's morally wrong. It's evil. There was just a story. I know you saw this out of West Virginia.

That's so that court ruled against the young woman, that's a 13 year old girl, I think, who was playing against a male. Hold on, let me get my notes. And this young boy said, I'm a girl, and I've been a girl. I've been taking the hormones and all that. But the young actual girl said, okay, you may say you're a girl, but you keep threatening to do things to me with your penis in the most vile and offensive terms possible.

And you keep winning races with faster times than most of the girls have in all of that. And the court in West Virginia sided with the trans student.

Riley Gaines
It goes to show you, no one is immune.

And this is something I see across the board. I live in Tennessee, which is a very, for the most part, conservative state. We've got great leaders in our state who do wonderful things.

But I, in talking with people, community members, parents, even kids in the state, they say, oh, well, that's not happening here. We're in Tennessee. Oh, that would be your first. That would be your first mistake. Because it certainly is. I think complacency is ultimately how we've got here, because we said, oh, it won't affect me. This isn't happening to me.

And then it does.

But those West Virginia girls, that case is.

Megyn Kelly
Those are the girls who refuse to do the shot put against this guy.

Riley Gaines
It is, right?

Megyn Kelly
You were there for that, too. Yeah.

Riley Gaines
You're everywhere. I feel everywhere. But really, I couldn't be more proud of those five girls because, look, these are 513 14 year old girls in middle school.

They reached out to me a few weeks prior to ultimately conceding in the video that went totally viral. And they said, riley, we're set to compete against a boy. He's also in middle school. He's 13 years old. He goes by the name of Becky Pepper Jackson or Becky Jackson Pepper, whatever his name is. And they said, but we don't want to compete against him. They said, riley, it's not because we don't like him or that we're hateful towards him or people who act in the way he does. No, it's not that. But, Riley, are we not worthy of being called champions? Why do we have to fight for second place?

And my heart broke. Middle school age girls, how sad is it that they're left to contemplate if they're worthy enough to be called champions?

But anyways, they decided on conceding. Five of those girls, they got up in the circle, they had their shot put, they loaded up as if they were going to throw, and then they stepped out. I could not be more inspired. I mean, I hate to even say that. I hate to say I'm inspired by girls not competing in sports, because I know the benefits of playing sports.

Megyn Kelly
It's like taking a moral stance, for.

Riley Gaines
Sure, for something far larger than just winning that one meat or far larger than even themselves.

Megyn Kelly
The allegations against this man, claiming he's female, included that he, again, haven't received his response to this, assuming it's a denial, but alleging that he made multiple sexually explicit remarks to this one girl in particular. Adelia Cross, two to three times per week, was looking at her saying, suck my d. Same thing to her other teammates as well, saying, I'm gonna do this with my d. And to you here, there and elsewhere, that he would taunt her after beating her in competitions. You have more testosterone than I do, and I'm still beating you.

And then he eventually took her spot away from her. By her 8th grade season, puberty appeared to be setting in, and he was suddenly taller than her and throwing 20ft farther than she could.

And the school did next to nothing. That looks like they worked to get the comments shut down. But he was never removed from the team. And these girls, too, were forced to change in a locker room with this intact young man. Now, the problem is the courts in that one case in West Virginia seemed to say, well, it's somebody who tried to live as a girl for, you know, since age nine. And if they go on the puberty blockers and then cross sex hormones, I mean, the court's basically saying they're kind of a woman except for the penis, and so they have no advantage. Yeah, except for that thing. And so they have no advantage. And I was. I had a couple of left wingers on my show recently who I like, but they were like, do you think jazz Jennings should have to use the boys room and play in the boys sports? And I said, yes, I do. I'm 100% there.

Riley Gaines
Yes.

Megyn Kelly
So what's your answer to the people who say, well, he started a puberty blocker, didn't have male puberty, or jazz Jennings had the operation. It's really kind of a girl.

Riley Gaines
Now, here's the thing.

Every decision has consequences, first and foremost. Even a decision as simple as if I don't get out of bed in the morning, it has a consequence to it. And so, look, I'm not here to police on what someone does. I think a child, anyone under the age of 18, chemically or surgically cash rating themselves, I think that's criminal. But an adult, that's the beauty of America. You can do what you want as long as it's not costing my taxpayer dollars and it's safe for everyone else who cares.

So I'm not here to police that, but that decision has consequences. So if you're a girl, let's say, who begins taking testosterone.

No, I don't think it's fair for you to compete with the girls because that's cheating. That's called using performance enhancing drugs. What do we call Lance Armstrong? We called him a cheater.

But that might be a decision that you have to make. That's a consequence of the decision. Okay, do you want to transition?

Fine. But you might not be able to play your sport anymore. And so I hear all the time. Okay, well, what about a third category?

Honestly, I thought for a while, sure, let's just have a third category. But the more I think about it, if safety and fairness still matter, which to me, every person, whether trans identifying or not, I think every person is entitled and should strive for safety and fairness.

If we create a third category, it's still very much going to be males competing against females.

Therefore safety and fairness.

Megyn Kelly
Wait, why do you think that? Because you think female people posing as males will go into that category and just get beaten by the guys who are.

Riley Gaines
Yeah, I mean, the binary still exists. Even if you have this third category for nonbinary or males identifying as women or females identifying as men who have begun taking testosterone, it's still going to be males versus females.

Megyn Kelly
I don't think we're gonna have the females who, posing as males who compete in that. Right? They haven't done a lot of the competition. They're not the problem. That's another thing my leftist friends were pushing me on. They're not leftist. There's center left, but they were left a little bit on a couple of things. And, you know, it's, look, it's not, the problem is not with women who pose as men making their way into men's spaces, nor is there a danger posed by that. Nor is there an unfairness issue posed by that. It's always the other way around. I don't know whether the third category could work. I just know it shouldn't be my daughter's problem until they figure it out.

Riley Gaines
No, I don't care. It shouldn't be up to the women to create a solution.

Megyn Kelly
Plus, it's like, look, my daughter loves sports, but she also really likes to act in the school plays. They happen at the same time. So she has to make a choice. She has to create a hierarchy of what is most important to her on her value list.

Riley Gaines
Exactly.

Megyn Kelly
That's what these trans people are going to have to do.

Riley Gaines
Exactly. Yeah, no doubt. And then let's say a third category. Okay, you have, do you then split it. Okay. Males who identify as women, women who identify as men. Okay, then, if fairness and safety still matter, do you split the men's division? Men who began taking hormone blockers before puberty and men who take HRT after puberty?

Megyn Kelly
If you really want to get there.

Riley Gaines
One place that you go to abandon all identities. We don't look at religion. We don't look at race. We don't look at sexual orientation, and rightfully so, because those things don't matter.

Megyn Kelly
But we're starting to look at the blowback against Caitlin Clark.

Riley Gaines
I know.

Megyn Kelly
Like, somehow she's committed a sin just by being so popular within the WNBA. Well, now, after the WNBA.

Well, what do you think of the testosterone thing? Because in the book, you address, what does it really mean when there's a biological male who's taking estrogen to lower his testosterone or puberty block, whatever they're trying to lower their testosterone, and then there are still many athletic bodies that say, that'll work. Yes.

Riley Gaines
I think that's the most misogynistic thing, reducing women down to a testosterone threshold. Is that all we are? Is that what makes someone a woman? How much testosterone you have? What a silly standard.

So, by no means. And even if. Even if a male could get to zero nanomoles per liter of testosterone, which is incredibly dangerous for a man to reach and achieve these levels that are being set by these governing bodies, but nonetheless, if a man could get to zero, there are still advantages that males possess that testosterone doesn't affect, that women will never have, like, lung capacity, like your heart size, like your height, like your limb size. It even sounds silly. But in swimming, your throat, size matters. This is a sport where you're grasping for air.

Men, on average, have a 40% larger throat than women. Wow, that's a huge advantage.

So these. I think the whole testosterone threshold, again, it's just incredibly misinformed as to what it is to be a woman.

Yeah, it's silly.

Megyn Kelly
I remember we did a show on sexual health. We did an hour on men's, and then we did an hour on women's. And I was asking the expert about women taking testosterone, because a lot of the women I know, I do not take testosterone, but some of the women I know are taking it. It helps with libido and whatever.

And she said, you can do it, but you certainly couldn't let your child get anywhere near it, because those patches are powerful, and you wouldn't want a child coming near you. And I remember asking, well, what about your husband? And she was making the point that if you had any idea how much testosterone is raging through the average male body. Your husband can rub the patch all over him and he's fine. He's breaming with it. The average man. Not guys who have a problem, but breaming with testosterone. And we're just not. We're just not. And the refusal, because there's still many sports out there that don't require any lowering of testosterone by these men.

Riley Gaines
Like soccer. Which. Soccer?

Yes.

When talking about swimming, I often forget the safety aspect of things because swimming isn't a sport where you're colliding or running into one another or throwing something at one another. But in sports like soccer or softball or volleyball, again, where you're hitting a ball at each other or what have you, you do have to worry about safety. So could you imagine on a soccer field, a male running up with his forceful and powerful kick ten times? I imagine the amount of power a woman can exert with her kick. Kicking you in the shin. Or volleyball. We've seen several instances of this. Now, what about Peyton McNabb in North Carolina? Yes. A high school senior who, playing on a girls team, has a boy playing on the opposing team. The boy jumps up, spikes the ball, hits Peyton in the face. She's immediately knocked unconscious where she laid for minutes before finally coming back around.

This was in September of 2022.

Still to this day, I mean, almost two years later, a year and eight ish months later, she's partially paralyzed on her right side. Her vision is impaired. She has to have special accommodations for testing at school because her memory is impaired, she can't retain information like she once could.

Megyn Kelly
And he's never apologized to her?

Riley Gaines
Oh, no. He's actually done the exact opposite and has continued to mock her through social media, messaged her and said, oh, my gosh. You know, you can't stop talking about me, can you? I'm living rent free in your head. I mean, awful. But it goes to show the narcissism.

Megyn Kelly
Yes. My gosh. This is why we have to fight. This is why Riley is not in dental school right now. Which was your plan?

What were you gonna do? Exactly? What was your endodontics?

Riley Gaines
Which is basically root canals.

Megyn Kelly
Oh, gosh.

Riley Gaines
I know.

Megyn Kelly
Well, you're kind of doing that in a different way. In a metaphorical way.

Riley Gaines
Yeah. Getting to the root of the problem, coming out of people's mouths.

Megyn Kelly
That's right.

Riley Gaines
It's probably just as painful as one.

Megyn Kelly
You never. All right, I'm gonna take a break, but I wanna get into your backstory because I love some of the stories in your book about you and your dad and creating mental toughness, all of this is. These are the building blocks of the Riley Gaines we now know are all in there. And there's some good advice on how to toughen up your kid lest he or she wind up being forced into activism on an important story or cause. Her new book is called swimming against the current. Quick break. Back with Riley right after this. Go order it today. Swimming against the current. Riley Gaines here with me still, Riley Gaines, author of the brand new book, it's out tomorrow. Go get it now. Swimming against the current. And there's all sorts of amazing facts and stats and reality in this book about what's really happening with the gender cult. But it also has some fun stories about Riley and how she got here. And you're so young, a lot of people may not know any of this stuff, so tell us about mental toughness and how your dad made sure you had it.

Riley Gaines
Well, I am so fortunate to have. I didn't realize this at the time, but of course, as you get older, I realize now how fortunate I am to have two amazing parents who love each other very much, who taught me how to be an independent thinker, how to call out an injustice when you see it.

So I could not be more grateful for my parents, who were both high level athletes. My mom, she was a division one softball player. My dad, he's an SEC hall of famer football player, went on to play for the Eagles.

It's been a good bit in the NFL. And so them having that background inclined was a big part in me playing sports, I guess I'll say. But when I was young, probably eight years old, my dad, he did some different business endeavors, and so I went with him on a business trip to Memphis, Tennessee.

And I will never forget we are at this hotel. I normally, of course, you know, never really traveled with just my dad. It was always all of us as a family, but it was a fun little bonding trip. So we're at this hotel, and he says, riley, come. Come down to the lobby with me. And I'm like, okay, you know, what are we doing? He takes me to the pool at this hotel. It's outside, it's in the middle of December. And he's like, jump in. I'm like, dad, I'm not jumping in that pool. It's freezing. He pulled back the tarp. He said, no, you're going to jump in. This is your first lesson of mental toughness.

You're going to jump in and you're not going to say, you're cold. You're not going to shiver. And I'll tell you when you can get out. I'm like, dad, this is child abuse. You can't make me do that. I'm calling mom.

But I listened to him. I jumped in, confused. What is this for?

Finally, after five minutes or so of treading in the water, he said, okay, you can come out. And then we go back to the room. I'm still shivering. I'm like, dad, what was that about? He said that, like I said, you need to learn mental toughness, because physical toughness, yeah, it's important, but mental toughness will take you further.

There's no such thing as cold, Riley. He said, there's such thing as an absence of heat, but there's no such thing as cold. It's a mental state. You think you're cold? He said, you're not really? And I will never forget that. It has stuck with me since. And every time when I was swimming or practicing and I began to, you know, your legs burn, you feel your body filling with lactic acid. You're tired, you're in pain. I thought to myself, pain isn't real. Just a feeling that I'm having. It's fleeting. It's in the moment, but not real.

Megyn Kelly
So this is the difference between you and virtually everybody. I mean, I remember talking to some Navy SEALs about this, and that's how they get through training. Like, I don't feel the pain. I don't feel the lactic acid. I tried that at my very next workout, and it was not true.

Riley Gaines
It's not true. We mere mortals do feel pain, but it's those lessons that I learned when I was young.

My dad was right, because they have transcended beyond athletics.

I'm able to do what I do now with a smile on my face, with an incredibly light heart. Not worrying, not caring, not feeling anxious or stressed about what we're up against, because I know what I'm standing for is the right thing.

Megyn Kelly
This brings me to something I've always wanted to ask you so my audience knows.

I used to be on the wrong side of this whole issue, you know, and I played clips of myself at NBC feeding into all of this. You know, I was still in the mindset of be compassionate. It's a very small group. They're very badly bullied. And using the pronouns, even when I launched the show, not so much on the other side, but on the pronouns I was still using when I launched this show. And then I started, you know, I.

Riley Gaines
Remember when you like. It was a defining moment for me to watch you kind of go off on.

It was very powerful. It was very fiery, but I needed to see that. So I don't know if you know just how many people you've inspired and influenced since taking that stand.

Megyn Kelly
That was a big decision for me, to turn on the pronouns naturally. And, you know, like you, there have been so many women who have inspired me. You're one of them. But Kelly J. Keene, Helen Joyce, Abigail Schreier's book, there's just been, you know, all these other great women who were to this party nice and early and have been waving the flag, saying, hold on, hold on, hold on.

JK Rowling, how brave she's been, all of it. But I always wanted to ask you about when you were swimming and Leah Thomas, you found out you're gonna have to swim against him.

So what? How did your mind work at the time to say, I'm gonna do it?

Riley Gaines
So we found out in about November of 2021, actually, let me take you a little further back. So I finished my junior year at University of Kentucky, ultimately placing 7th in the country, which, it wasn't the best time, but I was proud of this. You're top eight, you're an all american. It's a pretty high honor, but I knew I was capable of more. So it was kind of right then and there that I placed 7th my junior year, that I set a goal for my senior year to win a national title. And so I'm right on pace to achieve this goal. About midway through my senior season, I was ranked third in the nation in the 200 freestyle, trailing the girl in second, a girl I knew very well by a few one hundredths of a second.

But the swimmer who was leading the nation by body links, might I add, was a swimmer that none of us had ever heard of before. Not me, not my teammates, not my competitors, not my family, not my coaches, none of us. It was the first time we became aware of a swimmer named Leah Thomas.

Lots of red flags at the time. Keep in mind, we hadn't seen a photo of this person, or else things probably would have been a little more clear.

But we really continued to stay in the dark until an article came out disclosing that Leah Thomas is actually Will Thomas and swam three years on the men's team at UPenn before deciding to switch to the women's team. Whereas you said ranked, I mean, was mediocre at best. He was a less than average male swimmer still competing at the division one level. So obviously he was a good swimmer.

Megyn Kelly
Yeah, but just not compared to the other men.

Riley Gaines
But not when it came to national rankings or achievements.

When I found out about this, naturally we were shocked.

But really, when I think about how I felt, it was like this overwhelming sense of relief, like, oh, that makes sense. Duh. It's a man. That's why he's beating everyone in the country by so much in multiple events. Duh.

And I didn't think much about it because I thought surely, I mean, it didn't even cross my mind that the NCAA wouldn't see a problem with this. They won't let him compete with us. At NCAA's the pinnacle of our sport. They'll put a policy in place. I'm sure they already have one in place. This isn't really an issue. He's a man.

So I was very relieved until I found out that the NCAA did not see it that way. They didn't see it the same way that me, again, my teammates, my coaches, anyone with any amount of brain activity saw this issue. They saw no problem with it.

But even still, those three weeks I mentioned how we found out about three weeks before that meet in March of 2022.

Even after finding out leading up to that meet, I am almost ashamed to admit it, but I still felt this, like, sheer sense of curiosity, almost intriguement, you know, what is this going to look like? Is he as tall as Instagram pictures make him look?

Is he going to sandbag it? Will he be in our locker room? I mean, there were so many questions that we didn't have answers to that there was a sense of intriguement. But I'm ashamed for feeling intrigued. I really am, because upon getting to that meet, seeing the tears that I saw from the girls who placed 9th and 17th and missed out on being named an all american by one place, seeing the tears from the moms in the stands, watching as their daughters are being obliterated in the sport that they once loved. Feeling the extreme discomfort in the locker room, hearing the whispers. Cause that's what they were. They were whispers of anger and frustration from these girls who, just like myself, had worked our entire lives to get to this meet.

I remember specifically, actually, when my feelings really shifted because this was like a week long meet. You swim prelims in the morning, you have to qualify top 16. You come back that evening, you swim finals, and that's where you'll achieve your overall national ranking. And so that first day of competition, I'm watching prelims of the 500, which is the event that Thomas would that evening go on to win a national title in. And I'm watching prelims. There's about eight heats or so.

My team was sat next to Virginia Tech, one of the swimmers from Virginia Tech. She swam in one of the earlier heats. She had just finished. She came back to the pool deck, stood by me. I knew her. I didn't know her that well.

I really only knew her name and what event she swam.

We're watching the final heat swim.

This is the event where she knew she was right on the cusp of making top 16.

The final heat concludes. Thomas is swimming. Thomas dominates. She looks up at the scoreboard and she realized she placed 17th. And I will never forget because she looked at me again, not even really knowing her, and she grabbed me, my hand with tears running down her face, and she said, riley, I just got beat by someone who didn't even have to try. I mean, I have chills telling it again.

Megyn Kelly
I have chills listening.

Riley Gaines
And that's when those feelings shifted to utter heartbreak and I realized the severity of what we were dealing with. This wasn't just a circus or a funny, haha, like, snl skit moment anymore. This was real life. And that's when I decided what cowards we have leading us, our coaches, even coaches who I love and respect and who knew this was objectively wrong and.

Megyn Kelly
That it was very hard for you to say anything about it as the competitors. They knew what would happen to you, of course. Yeah, but they were more worried about their own heights, of course.

Riley Gaines
And again, I understand, because the risk and the threats, they're real. I'm not sitting here saying that it's easy. Well, actually, I am. It is easy to say that there are two sexes. That's not hard to say.

Megyn Kelly
But very few have said it right. Paula Scanlon spoke out, you pen swimmer, you spoke out. But almost no one else. No one else that I know of.

Riley Gaines
No, there's been very, very few. Very few people think it's either either. Of course they're terrified. They're scared. They believe it when their universities or administrators tell them they won't get a job or they won't get into grad school, they'll lose their friends, or people genuinely think it's not their problem. They think, oh, well, I'm done competing. It happened to me, but I'm moving on. It's on to the next thing. It won't happen again.

Really?

No.

Megyn Kelly
It's incredibly selfish.

Riley Gaines
Yeah.

Megyn Kelly
And there's a story out of Oregon that I saw, I know you've seen it and have tweeted about it, but this is kind of reminding me of this. It's a track star.

There were the Oregon track and field state championships for this past weekend. High school track and a biological male, 10th grader at McDaniel high School, ran.

He ran as a woman.

This guy comes out and wins. He just won the 200 meters state championship.

He was booed, thank God, when he crossed the finish line against the girls. He was booed when they announced the first place winner because these girls fully understand, understood what had just happened to them. Similar to your 17th place friend.

And this guy came out of nowhere, too. He had a background in weight training, reports the Washington Times, but had not even competed in track and field before joining the girls team this season.

Riley Gaines
And now he's a state champion. The fastest girl or woman in the state of Oregon. The whole state. And he's never ran before. It's the same story every single time. Mediocre men, less than mediocre men, become record smashers on the women's side. It's the same story every single time.

Again, it breaks my heart. I think we should take a minute and recognize the real state champion, Aster Jones, the girl who got second but the rightful state champion.

Megyn Kelly
That's right.

Riley Gaines
He also placed second in the 400 meters behind a girl who is going on to be an SEC runner. So, I mean, these aren't scrubs. It's not like these girls are bad at running.

No, these girls are incredible.

And him being mediocre is still able to beat even the most, I mean, the fastest girls in the state.

Megyn Kelly
The mother of one of the female runners told the publica publication that the Oregon School Activities association threatened to ban any students who complained about this male. She said, my daughter is in her senior year. She has to compete against this person who just won at state and took spots away from our girls. And he doesn't deserve it. He needs to be with the men.

And, you know, more and more, what we're being told by some is the girls don't mind. They didn't say anything. Look at the Upenn swimmers. They didn't mind. It's just you bigots who complain. They're much more tolerant. And look at Megan Rapinoe.

She says, it's fine. Like this isn't happening. They're not just entering to steal the medals. So take a seat.

Riley Gaines
It's so silly when people say that because first of all, it's people who have never played sports in their entire lives who are saying that. And second of all, that could not be further from the truth.

Again, 16 of those you pinned swimmers signed on to an email saying that they weren't okay with this, but their voices aren't heard. They're stifled. Their speech is stifled.

They're forced into submission through emotional blackmail and gaslighting, being told they literally have blood on their hands. If they speak out, telling them that, they will be murderers.

That's why these girls are quiet and.

Megyn Kelly
The loss of everything they've trained their whole lives for. Everything.

Riley Gaines
Exactly.

Megyn Kelly
And the number of hours in the pool, I can only imagine.

Riley Gaines
Oh, gosh.

Yeah.

I mean, at the collegiate level, we practice 6 hours every single day, with three of those hours being before 08:00 a.m. so you wake up, you go to the pool, you swim from 05:00 a.m. to 08:00 a.m. you go to class, you come back, you practice again from 130 to 430, ate your dinner, did your homework, iced your shoulder, went to bed, woke up, did it all again the next day.

Megyn Kelly
It's very easy for people on the outside to say, you should stand up, and that's why it's so hard for those girls. You know, you showed the shop pudders. We talked about them in West Virginia. But it's really, ideally, this comes from the outside. It comes from women and men totally on the outside to stand up for these athletes who shouldn't be asked to sacrifice everything to stand up against the insanity. Riley, you're so brave. I'm so happy you exist and that you've taken this on and that you're not in dental school and not doing endodontics or whatever. I am thrilled this was your calling and your purpose, and I can't wait to see what you do with all this talent and drive.

Riley Gaines
Well, I'm inspired by women like you. So thank you again. This was long overdue, but I'm thrilled to be just next with you in this fight with you. And I imagine we'll see each other again soon.

Megyn Kelly
Right on.

Thanks for listening to the Megyn Kelly show. No B's, no agenda, and no fear.

What She SAW in That Locker Room | Riley Gaines x Megyn Kelly - The FULL Interview

Primary Topic

Episode Summary

Main Takeaways

Episode Chapters

1: Introduction and Background

2: Core Issues and Incidents

3: Responses and Reactions

4: Looking Forward

Actionable Advice

About This Episode

People

Companies

Books

Guest Name(s):

Content Warnings:

Transcript