What Post-Verdict Polls Show, and How "Apprentice" Made Trump a Megastar, with Hogan Gidley, David Pakman, and Ramin Setoodeh | Ep. 812

This episode discusses the political implications of recent verdict polls and how the television show "The Apprentice" transformed Donald Trump into a prominent public figure.

1. The cultural and political impact of "The Apprentice" on Donald Trump's image and subsequent political career is profound, shaping public perception.
2. There is a significant division in how different political sides view America's historical and current roles in global affairs.
3. Post-verdict polls indicate complex public feelings about recent political and judicial outcomes, reflecting deep national polarization.
4. The episode highlights the evolving definitions of bravery, comparing historical military actions to modern social activism.
5. Discussions also cover the implications of political leadership on public policies and their effects on everyday Americans.

1. Opening Remarks

Megyn Kelly opens the show by reflecting on historical bravery and its relevance to current political and social climates. She sets the stage for a detailed discussion on modern heroism and political polarization. Megyn Kelly: "It's hard to take in the risks that those boys took on... They knew that this was a suicide mission and they did it anyway."

2. Political Analysis

Guests Hogan Gidley and David Pakman discuss the political landscape following recent polls, analyzing shifts in public opinion and media portrayal of political figures. Hogan Gidley: "We used to share a common thread of respect and love for one another because we lived in the greatest nation." David Pakman: "The definition of bravery has really taken a hit in the last several decades."

3. Media's Role

Ramin Setoodeh provides insight into Donald Trump's media savvy, particularly through his involvement in "The Apprentice," and its impact on his presidential campaign. Ramin Setoodeh: "Americans love Donald Trump because of the character he played on 'The Apprentice'."

1. Engage in Historical Education: Learn about past events to understand their impact on current society and contribute to more informed discussions about national identity.
2. Critically Evaluate Media: Analyze how media shapes perceptions of political figures and events to better understand bias and influence.
3. Participate in Civic Activities: Engage in local and national civic activities to contribute to community and national policy-making.
4. Promote Cross-Generational Dialogue: Encourage conversations between different generations to bridge understanding on evolving social and political views.
5. Support Veteran Causes: Recognize and support veterans' causes to honor past sacrifices and promote continued service awareness.

Megyn Kelly is joined by political commentators Hogan Gidley and David Pakman to discuss the 80th anniversary of D-Day, teenagers who put their lives on the line for our country, how wars brought America together in the past, the change in the definition of "bravery," illegal immigration under Trump and Biden, the political implications of immigration in 2024, inflation as a campaign issue, whether the Trump guilty verdict will help or hurt him, what the polls are showing so far, details of the Hunter Biden laptop scandal, what issues are going to bring people to the ballot box, and more. Then Ramin Setoodeh, author of "Apprentice in Wonderland," joins to discuss the impact NBC's hit show “The Apprentice" had on Trump’s career and cultural relevance, how his notable catch phrase "You're Fired" came to be, behind-the-scenes details of the show, how the program helped lead him to become president, the real reason Trump decided to bring Omarosa to the White House, how Trump thrives on chaos, Trump's legacy in media, entertainment, and politics, and more. And Megyn concludes the show by paying tribute to those in uniform who served on D-Day, the emotional moment from one service member, how Hillary Clinton had to go political on the occasion, and more.

People

Hogan Gidley, David Pakman, Ramin Setoodeh

Companies

None

Books

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Guest Name(s):

Hogan Gidley, David Pakman, Ramin Setoodeh

Content Warnings:

None

Megyn Kelly
Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show live on SiriusXM, channel 111 every weekday at noon east.

Hey, everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show. Today is the 80th anniversary of D Day. Gosh, think about that later in the show. We're gonna pay proper tribute to the men who fought and died on the beaches of Normandy. You know, it was.

It was. I was there this time last year we went. Remember this? Maybe you do. With my family. We went to France and that was our first stop was Normandy. And, man, what a thing to be standing there on Omaha beach and see what those boys of Pont Dahawk did. It was truly amazing. Even then, 79 years later, and we just can't let it go by. You can't let it go by. We need to continue teaching the next generation what this day means in world history.

We're just. The only narrative they get now is that the US are the bad guys. And the United States. We're not the bad guys.

We are the liberators of Europe and the world.

And Normandy stands as a shining example of american courage, liberation, sacrifice for others and standing up for what's right.

It's hard to take in the risks that those boys took on. When you actually stand on the beach and you realize how exposed they were. You stand on the beach and you see that there are these cliffs behind you, these large cliffs. And that's where all the Germans were standing up there with cannons and machine guns firing down.

So these boys wrote, you know, not rode, but boated up to the beach with nothing to guard them. Literally nothing. The backs of the boats were pretty much all they had. And then as they came up on the shores, the backs of the boats flipped down. And so there was nothing between them and the gunfire that was raining down upon them from these cliffs that they were running toward.

They were running toward. They knew that this was a suicide mission and they did it anyway. Average age, 19.

Think about that. Think about what the 19 year olds are doing today.

They're on TikTok.

They're tweeting out about their latest disorder.

It's just a completely different set of values, seemingly.

And that's what's sad about where we are today. And this is an inspiration for what we'd like to get back to. Not war, but courage and values and honor.

Today there was a ceremony, as there always is in France, marking the anniversary, and we're going to share it with you. It happened today because there was a remarkable moment that happened. Our president is there now. And while most politicians today are paying tribute to the veterans, thanking them for their service. There are still, there are just a few World War two veterans who served on D Day. Still, with us getting fewer and fewer, this could be the last year.

Wait until you hear what Hillary Clinton tweeted about today's anniversary. For today's show, we're going to bring you something a little bit different from what we normally do. We have strong voices from the right and the left to have a deeper discussion on today's political headlines, including the meltdown in response to this Wall Street Journal report on President Biden's mental health. And the two guys we're going to use today to walk you through all of this are Hogan Gidley. Hogan was White House deputy press secretary during the Trump administration and press secretary for the 2020 Trump campaign.

And David Pakman. David is a progressive political commentator and host of the David Pakman show on YouTube.

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megan Hogan David, welcome to the show.

David Pakman
Thank you.

Hogan Gidley
Great to be with you.

Megyn Kelly
Great to have you. Oh, let's just kick it off there. We're going to do talk about D Day in just a bit. But, you know, whenever I see these ceremonies, very stirring. Makes me proud to be an american. Makes me wish we had the kind of unity and love of country that was near uniform back then. We don't. Things have changed. But I don't know, Hogan, how do you think about the 80th anniversary today?

Hogan Gidley
I was over there actually with President Trump, I think at the 75th anniversary. Still something that stirs my soul to this day, talking to those people who were there. I did some work with Elizabeth Dole in the past, too. She has honor flights bringing people from that war over to DC to check out their monument.

It's just so interesting to see how many people sacrificed everything they had to go stand up for freedom. The alliances we built as a country, the common thread. We shared, the love of America. Regardless of the dark days that every country faces, we had something unique and different. We came out of those dark times more united, more understanding of our common enemies, our common friends, and we've lost so much of that. You touched on it there in the open. It's so frustrating, because when you see an event like this and this occasion marks such sobriety of what these teenagers did, what they left, and you compare that to today, I think the definition of bravery has really taken a hit in the last several decades.

You can go march in a parade. You can stand up, and for any political topic de jour, and that's somehow brave. It's not the same bravery as those kids had going and storming into that beach. No question about it.

Megyn Kelly
Yeah. What do you think, David?

David Pakman
Yeah, I mean, I agree with a lot of what Hogan says. Big picture.

It's interesting that he left out the example of how bravery has been perverted. I'm sure he knows that. Trump once said avoiding STD's was like his Vietnam, which, of course, is another example of what I would point to as a degradation, so to speak, of what counts as bravery these days. But, no, I mean, listen, that was humor. Big picture. You know, with. With Trump, it's hard to tell, isn't it? Um, bigger pic. Big picture. I do have a real concern, not just with the way in which a lot of young people aren't learning history. They're not learning critical thinking. They're not learning a lot of different things that. That I wish they were learning. And certainly world War two history is part of it. I'm with Hogan right there.

Speaker one
Mm hmm.

Megyn Kelly
I know it was. Brit Hume was tweeting today about having covered the 50th anniversary and how it was just one of the most stirring things he's ever done. And then you go to the cemetery, which is right there, and you see just the rows and rows and rows of crosses and american names all over them.

And we always think about the 40th anniversary, which was when Ronald Reagan was in office and went over there in a speech written by Peggy Noonan, who's, God bless her, still with us. And, you know, it just makes you feel the thing, you know, when you said teenagers, Hogan, it made me get that, like, you have, like, a chill, like, oh, my God, you think of our teens today doing something that big. And here's just a reminder for those of you who haven't heard it, a little bit of Ronald Reagan at Pontahoc talking about it.

Ronald Reagan
Their mission was one of the most difficult and daring of the invasion, to climb these sheer and desolate cliffs and take out the enemy guns. Soon, one by one, the rangers pulled themselves over the top, and in seizing the firm land at the top of these cliffs, they began to seize back the continent of Europe. These are the boys of Puente ho.

These are the men who took the cliffs.

These are the champions who helped free a continent. You all knew that some things are worth dying for.

One's country is worth dying for. And democracy is worth dying for because it's the most deeply honorable form of government ever devised by man.

All of you loved liberty.

All of you were willing to fight tyranny, and you knew the people of your countries were behind you.

The Americans who fought here that morning knew word of the invasion was spreading through the darkness back home.

They fought or felt in their hearts, though they couldn't know, in fact, that in Georgia they were filling the churches at 04:00 a.m. in Kansas, they were kneeling on their porches and praying, and in Philadelphia, they were ringing the Liberty bell.

Megyn Kelly
Oh, I mean, just that kind of. That's exactly what happened. Right. But I can't help but watch that, Hogan, and think, how do we go so wrong? You know, that was the 20th century american military, and this is not a knock on our military, God knows, but on our leaders and our policy choices in the 21st century, I think, has got many people in both parties. In a way, this is something that is unifying us today.

Very feeling very reluctant to be pro military in terms of our endeavors. Not the guys, but like, pro war, pro american intervention. We've just learned to be very distrustful and to see these missions as about something very different, maybe money, you know, the so called military industrial complex that the leaders don't necessarily have, our boys and young women now in best interests at heart, the forever wars that take us nowhere. I don't know. It's like, look at the difference, the difference in those 80 years between the way America and Americans feel about the military and our endeavors.

Hogan Gidley
Yeah. And David went political off the top, so let me do the same. I think that's hard to accomplish in today's society because you have an entire political party who continues to tell the american people that our country is the cause of the world's problems. We're the root of all evil. And I mentioned the difficult times we've had in the past. That's not unique to America. It is unique, though, that we come out of those times usually more unified.

But that's hard to do because Democrats, writ large, basically apologize for America all the time. They go on the global stage and they talk about how bad we are.

And while we do have issues, don't get me wrong, we used to share a common thread of respect and love for one another because we lived in the greatest nation, the greatest idea ever realized. And so this, there's a reason that countries like Cuba and people around the world walk through their streets holding our american flag and chant liberty and freedom, because they know what so many on the left don't believe, which is America's still the beacon of hope and of strength and of goodness and of democracy all over the world. And that's hard to unite behind when half of the country doesn't believe it.

Megyn Kelly
What's your response, David? What do you think?

David Pakman
No, I think, I mean, listen, there's a reason why Hogan and a lot of other former Trump folks and wannabe Trump folks and current Trump folks are saying things like what Hogan's saying Democrats are a huge problem and they're apologizing and all these things. These folks are desperate because they've lost everything since Trump won by 77,000 votes in three states in 2016. And let me lay this out, Megan, if I can. It's been eight years after that squeaker. In 2016.

They blew the 2018 midterms. Trump got defeated in 2020.

The 2022 red wave led to Democrats growing their margin in the Senate. 2023 was a disaster. After repealing Roe v. Wade, every referendum on abortion has gone the opposite way. So there's an incredible desperation. And I have to say, Hogan, this is not a personal attack in any way. You seem like a really nice guy. We don't know each other. There's almost an affirmative action with these Trump folks where if these were football coaches that had lost everything for a decade, they wouldn't, Kayleigh McEnany wouldn't be on Fox News, we wouldn't be going to Hogan and saying, give us your state. They've lost everything.

And somehow, through some kind of affirmative action, I guess we still hear from them. But they're desperate, Megan, because this has gone, gone sideways for a decade.

Megyn Kelly
Wait, what are you, what are you suggesting, David? That because the Republicans have had a rough couple of electoral cycles, everyone who is on Team Trump should just go underground? They shouldn't speak anymore. By no means going to be the republican nominee.

David Pakman
No. I'm glad to hear from Hogan. But there's a degree to which we would say, wait a second. How could his analysis. Or it's not about Hogan. How could any of these analyses really accurately reflect reality when. When these are the analyses that lost them everything in, what, four or five elections in a row? I would approach it with caution.

Megyn Kelly
Go ahead, Hogan. What do you think of that?

Hogan Gidley
Yeah.

Okay, let's unpack that. By that rationale, I guess we should never hear from Hillary Clinton again either. Cause she lost.

Any Democrat who loses an election, you can't hear from them. Anybody who worked in a White House, worked in an administration, shouldn't have a say so. And what's going on in this country. Of course, this is a battle between those who love America and those who hate America, because the positions of both parties, they've been clearly articulated now for a long time. And so I think moving into 2024 as we kind of reset, and now we've lived under the failed policies of Joe Biden for the last four years, where Americans have been kicked in the teeth.

They can't afford gas and groceries, crimes are spiking all over their communities, wars are breaking out all over the world, the southern borders, bringing in, you know, fentanyl, killing our american citizens, human trafficking, child smuggling. It's all up.

I think the stark reality of the fact that we've got an upcoming election where these two men, uniquely have a record, not as a governor, saying, if you elect me, I promise I'll do this. I'm a senator. I did this for my state. Both of these folks were president. The records are stark. And the juxtaposition where we used to have to point back to Reagan. Megan, you just played an incredible speech. Remember how good it was in the eighties? We can say we had record setting success in record setting time three years ago. It took one guy and his demented policies to tear us down this quickly. So this election, no question, is going to be significant for the future of America. But to say someone who lost an election or wasn't part of the winning team shouldn't have a say so is so insane.

Megyn Kelly
Go ahead, David.

David Pakman
Yeah, no, of course I'm not saying they shouldn't have a say so. What I'm saying is, at this point, it seems clear the american people see through it, and the people who lost five elections in a row are not the ones I'd be listening to on policy. Now, with regard to a lot of the stuff that Hogan mentioned, there we can go. But one by one or. Or not. I mean, just to pick a couple of things, because there was a lot there, you know, on inflation. I mean, listen, groceries and gas, they were even cheaper under Obama. They were even cheaper under Bush and cheaper under Clinton. I mean, yes, there is inflation. We have not had a deflationary spiral, but inflation's at about 3% right now, which is what every serious economist says is the target with regard to the record right now, unemployment. I mean, it's like, it's almost silly for me to do this because the american people know, but we've never had unemployment percent. We've never had unemployment below 4% for this long in 50 years, and it remains there. Wage growth has outpaced inflation. GDP is a completely normal and healthy 3%. You know, it's like, people know this.

Megyn Kelly
In the news today. David, take, take that one up.

David Pakman
Well, what, I mean, ask me a question about it. What's, what's the question?

Megyn Kelly
Are we, are we doing better under Joe Biden when it comes to is illegal immigration than we were under Trump?

David Pakman
Speaker one, how do you define better?

Fewer, fewer people continue to cross over illegally as they have for what, 100 years, 200 years.

Megyn Kelly
So it's the same.

David Pakman
I think that one of the funny things that has happened is that for months, I'm sorry, I think we're talking over each other.

Megyn Kelly
No, I'm, I'm saying that's dishonest. You're just like, you're saying don't trust the Republicans on their messaging, and you come on here and want to tell me that it's the same, like they're just continuing.

David Pakman
There have been periods of the, I'm glad.

Megyn Kelly
10,000 a day crossing the southern border. Go ahead.

Hogan Gidley
Yeah, sorry.

David Pakman
I think we're all talking over each other.

Hogan Gidley
Speaker one now, you know, you realize.

Megyn Kelly
Too, I don't wake Hogan. I'll bring you in, but let me defend that. Go ahead. Speaker one.

David Pakman
Oh, okay. No, listen. I mean, based on the border Patrol statistics, there have been times during the Biden administration where crossings have, on average, been below where they were under Trump. At some points, they were above that. The funniest part to me about immigration is that now that Republicans themselves torpedoed the bill they wanted because Trump said, no, no, no, I need something to run on. I need something to do. Biden puts in place this limitation, which, by the way, doesn't solve the reason people are trying to come here. We need more immigration judges. I'm glad Biden made this point. Now that he did it, they're still not happy and they're saying, well, it's only for political reasons. Why do you think Trump wanted to do this? It's also for political reasons. So this seems like a political game to me when the reality, Megan, is we never permanently deal with DACA. We never permanently deal with the reasons people even want to come over here in the first place. It's a lame political football.

Megyn Kelly
Wow.

Hogan Gidley
You notice.

Megyn Kelly
Go ahead. It's fascinating to me, for me here, I have to say, david, I appreciate you coming on the show because we don't get a lot of progressives and they know I don't really agree with them.

David Pakman
I don't know why not.

Megyn Kelly
I actually really, I appreciate you being here and saying, you know, the way you see these things and the way the left views these things. Cause it's actually, well, I don't know.

David Pakman
About the left, but listen, I'm on the left. Countries have a right to enforce, force immigration policy. If you're here illegally, of course you're subject to deportation. I mean, I think that there's a caricaturizing that happens of the left on this issue. I'm an immigrant from Argentina. We came here legally. I'm now an american citizen. People still write to me and say, you should go back to Argentina. But listen, I don't want the left characterized as something that it isn't on this issue. You'll never hear me say a country doesn't have a right to enforce policy rights.

Megyn Kelly
Otherwise we'd have different policy. I mean, Hogan, you work for the Trump administration. The first thing that Joe Biden did when he took over was to reverse the three principal things that Trump was doing to stop the flow of illegal migrants across the southern border. The remain in Mexico program, the asylum seekers en masse, and the construction of the border wall. He shut it all down. He sold off all the parts he couldn't even try to rebuild. There was no construction to what he did.

Yeah, there was. Go ahead.

Hogan Gidley
All right, first things first. You noticed, Dave said most economists will tell you that the correct percentage. I know that's a bad impression, Dave, but nonetheless, yeah, economists don't matter in this scenario. The american people do. They're paying more for simple goods and services that they weren't paying under Donald Trump. And they know that it's like a tax heaped upon their head as far as the border is concerned. Because I was in the White House during this, and I had a lot of fights with press folks about this very topic.

Joe Biden looks around and acts as though these things are just happening to him. They're happening because of him. In large measure because of the policy. He wants the border open now, I would argue, wants to flood this country with people illegally to get them on the government dime and then have them vote Democrat in perpetuity. But this whole show press conference he had the other day is insane for so many reasons. First of all, I was told the border was secure, so what are we even talking about? Second of all, I was told he couldn't do anything. He, from the executive branch, made all these changes, but somehow that requires a legislative solution that doesn't make any sense. He did it because you know it's going to get enjoined and the courts are going to step in and say, no, you can't do this. And he can say, see, I was going to do something, but the Republicans wouldn't do it because MaGa and Trump said they couldn't. You realize the Senate had a bill that could not pass the Senate. The House had a bill that was hr two. The Senate won't take it up. And the reason, you know, what Joe Biden wants to do won't secure the border at all. Forget the nuance of it. Even though we could go through point by point and show you how it does it, the media and the left love it. If it actually secured the border, they'd want no part of it whatsoever. So to hear the left try and rewrite history that somehow immigration was just as high under Donald Trump is absolute insanity. The american people know it because back then, it was just along the southern border.

Now, thanks to Democrat republican governors who had the guts to send people into these communities that say they wanted it. When they got there, that lasted about 15 minutes. And then they realized it was a strain on the education system, the health care system, the first responders, etcetera, they realized this is no good. Now all of a sudden, he's coming to pretend as though he's trying to do something. And one more thing about the courts, he's going to back down because somebody will enjoin this. He doesn't have a problem. When the Supreme Court says, you don't have the right to forgive student loan debt and pass off someone else's college tuition to another person, he doesn't care about that. He goes right through it. When a court says, hey, you can't mandate vaccines on 80 million people, he says, out of hell with the courts. I'll go through OSHa and try to force the american people to do that. So spare me the pearl clutching. This is all his fault and the american people know it. Because when he did overturn everything.

Every single person in the media said this is the humane way to do it. He's doing the right thing. The administration joked and said too many executive orders for us to even understand. I don't even remember it. We've done so many. They know it. They broke it, they bought it.

Megyn Kelly
Go ahead.

David Pakman
I have to say that there's so much there. I don't even know that we could go through every single thing. But just to pick where Hogan started on inflation and kind of ridiculing economists and this and that, Hogan just said that because certain things were cheaper under Trump, it's a failure of Biden. Will Hogan acknowledge, therefore, that because those very same goods were cheaper under Obama, Trump also did something wrong?

Hogan Gidley
Well, I'm sure they were cheaper under Grover Cleveland, too. That's not the point.

David Pakman
That's exactly the point. The point is you're just making we.

Hogan Gidley
Get the inflation back to where we were, and the answer is yes.

David Pakman
Are you calling for a deflationary spiral? I mean, here's the thing I don't understand, Megan, and I really, I'm not asking this rhetorically. I actually want to understand this as someone with a background in economics.

If inflation goes below zero, you create a deflationary spiral where people expect things to be cheaper in the future, and so they wait to buy anything, which hurts the economy. This is why.

Megyn Kelly
So even Trump said this on a stump just last week. He said we were around 1.4%, which is even better than zero for the exact reasons you just cited. Keep going.

David Pakman
Speaker one, two to three is typically what, what you want. That's where economic growth comes from. So the thing I struggle with, and I really do want to understand it, because for me, people who know me know, I don't play political games with gas prices. I don't play political games with inflation. I really, my view on this is just from economics, the goal from which traditional economics, not marxist, left wing stuff. Traditional economics says you want around 3% inflation because that is an incentive to buy now rather than later. And it's where wage growth and economic growth comes from. Hogan seems to, I guess, want deflation, which doesn't seem to be good. So just maybe someone who knows more can explain it to me.

Megyn Kelly
No, I guess that's not happening now. Ok, let's, let's go back to immigration. Oh, go ahead if you want to. Speaker one.

Hogan Gidley
No, all I was going to say was regardless of where the target percentage would be, and economists agree and have these conversations all the time, the american people are suffering and they vote on their pocketbooks, as we all know. And if they realize that prices for things are through the roof compared to where they used to be, they're looking for someone to blame. And while Joe Biden tries to pass the buck consistently, he's the president. And so people will, rightly or wrongly, according to you, blame Joe Biden for it. That's the fallout. You make the decisions.

David Pakman
I agree on the political analysis, 100% so on that people vote on their perception of the economy. No argument for me whatsoever.

Megyn Kelly
Hogan and Trump's got a 20 point lead over Joe Biden on that, according to the latest poll. So they're definitely blaming Joe Biden. And, you know, that is tied to some of the spending he did when he first took over. Trump spent a lot, too.

I want to stay on immigration for a minute, though, because Joe Biden is now issuing the executive orders, which he said he couldn't do. And what struck me was he's now going to do, let me get the numbers in front of me. He's going to allow, all right, asylum will be suspended when the threshold reaches an average of 2500 migrants each day. So he's not going to allow asylum seekers. If we have an average of 2500 migrants each day. He would lift that suspension when there's a daily average of less than 1500 encounters. What's amazing to me is I remember anchoring in the chair on Fox when Barack Obama's immigration head said, 1000 a day is a crisis. That that is a true crisis. Whatever we do, we can't let it get to 1000 a day. And now here we are with an influx of over, what, more than 8 million since then. That's not even counting the numbers that did come in under Trump, though he was committed to trying to stop that.

So now here we are with what, let's call it 10,000,011. I know the numbers are vastly bigger than that, but let's just call it 10 million. With this president saying 2500, definitely 1500 is fine, we won't suspend asylum, which is nuts. I mean, that's absolutely nuts to me. Dave, why is the threshold anywhere near this high?

Speaker one?

David Pakman
This is to me.

Megyn Kelly
Yeah.

David Pakman
Oh. So here's my view on immigration, and I already laid out part of it.

I believe that without immigrants, the country collapses. And I think it's abundantly clear, if anything, as far as legal immigration, we probably need to increase it significantly to remain globally competitive, especially as birth rates are starting to decline.

Big picture. I think that that's a big issue here. In addition to this, when it comes to the sort of crime narrative we know from very good studies, both state and federal, both documented and undocumented immigrants commit crime at lower rates than natural born citizens. Now, I know Trump loves the lurid.

Megyn Kelly
Let me just take you on in that. Well, even one is too many. Why do I have to deal with these illegal immigrants committing felonies against my friends or family when they shouldn't even be here? American born. That's one thing. I got to deal with Americans. Why should I have to deal with somebody from Venezuela who snuck in here illegally and committed a felony against a family member?

David Pakman
I'm not denying that if they are here illegally, they are subject to deportation. But I'm trying to build up my view to try to have a conversation that goes beyond the talking points on this. So if we start, that's not a.

Megyn Kelly
Talking point, that's actual crimes. Just ask Lake and Riley's family down in Georgia.

Hogan Gidley
Yeah, all right.

David Pakman
I guess it doesn't really, if you don't want me to talk, it's fine. I just.

Hogan Gidley
Speaker one.

Megyn Kelly
No, I want you to talk, but you're casting an aspersion that I'm spewing out some sort of talking points to you. And I'm saying actual.

David Pakman
I'm just saying we're not really digging more deeply here. We're not really digging more deeply. So we have a situation here where obviously, we are completely understaffed when it comes to immigration judges and being able to adjudicate these asylum claims. We also have circumstances in people's home countries that we could be better working on at a fraction of what it costs to deal with the problem domestically, which no one ever wants to do. I actually think that one of the great tragedies on this issue is that both Democrats and Republicans, for different reasons, have been unable to get us closer to what we might call a more semi permanent solution on some of the low hanging fruit. I mean, even most Republicans I talk to acknowledge the individuals brought here undocumented when they were minors.

We're not going to send them back. They need a path to normalization here, whether it's a permanent residency or there's so many things everybody agrees on and for different reasons, either because they don't want their political enemies to get the credit for it or because they want to save it for when they get elected as something to run on. We could deal with probably 80% of this. I think this might be crazy. I think Hogan and I could agree on 80% of this if we were in charge of this. And it's disgusting to me how both sides, to different degrees, end up getting in the way of permanent solutions for political reasons. Now, obviously, as someone on the left, I'm more partial to the view of immigration that I think is more on my side than Hogan's. But that being said, I don't see any progress on this issue because everybody wants to keep reserve and use it to their advantage in a way that goes beyond other issues. And I think it's about that.

Megyn Kelly
Hogan, let me ask you about that, because Trump, as you well know, his biggest critic on immigration is Ann Coulter, who is a dyed in the wool conservative. And she's as angry as anybody about the fact that, as Dave just said, the wall was not built. Now, Trump had constructed some wall, but it was not completed the way Trump promised. And to Dave's point, Trump had control of Congress and the White House. The Republicans had control of Congress and the White House for his first two years of his presidency. He actually could have pushed massive reform through on immigration and did not do it.

Hogan Gidley
Yeah. With Paul Ryan as speaker one, I don't think so. I mean, some of the biggest fights we had internally at that, at the White House were with Republicans who didn't want to change the system, who didn't want to build the wall. Remember, we had to use military money to do it. Nancy Pelosi stood up many times and pounded her fist in those meetings, or walked out and said, I'm not giving a single dime to this border wall, and then went on to sign multiple budgets that had border wall funding in it. So Dave's right. The whole thing's a political sham and theater for the most part, I would argue more on the left than the right. But even still, the solution here has to do with preventing people from coming into this country illegally. We already let in more than a million people a year legally. So how many should we let in? I guess is the real question here. And as far as what you pointed out at the beginning, Megan, think of it this way. Every rape, every murder, every burglary, every assault, every DUI committed by an illegal alien is 100% preventable because they should not be here in the first place. And while our citizens may commit crime at a higher rate than legal or illegal immigrants, we got our own problems. Why would we import more? And now with people flying in from other nations, the chinese nationals spiking from a few hundred in the first couple of years of Joe Biden, now 35,000, I think already in this year, we're not even halfway through the year. That shows you we are in line for some serious problems that we're going to have to face and address in the future.

And it's going to be a difficult task if Donald Trump were to win reelection to fix all of this, because we're in such a hole now. The american people hate where we are with immigration. We're going to have to fix.

Megyn Kelly
That's why Joe Biden's doing something. That's clearly why. I mean, he's feeling the political pressure. But just as Megan, I know you probably want to.

396,000 illegal migrants come in. That's not including the gotaways, the ones who weren't. But we had just about 400,000 come in 2023 under Joe Biden. Add 2 million to that 2.4 million. It is not the same. It is nowhere near the same. We are at true crisis levels as defined by not Megyn Kelly, but the Obama administration. Right.

This is a crisis that needs something done about it. Joe Biden's done. Here is teaspoons in the ocean. I got to take quick break. Hold your thoughts. We'll come back after this. More with Hogan and David. Straight ahead, guys. Let's talk about the post Trump verdict polling. Starting to get a flavor now. About a week, well, exactly a week after the verdict on whether it moved the race. And this could change. Of course, it's only one week out, but here's where we stand real clear. Politics averaged the three polls so far that show it's basically tied. It's still tied. Uh, Trump's up one, Trump's up two, Biden's up two, and another one. And here's from YouGov, which is which polled 1100 registered voters. We haven't seen likely yet. Likely voters. Uh, the question was, has Donald Trump's convict conviction made you more likely to vote for him? 2% yes, less likely to vote for him. 3% say less likely. Neither two, uh, 93% say it has not caused them to reconsider at all. So, if anything, that's a Trump lost one percentage point.

But most people aren't moved in any way. There was an interesting poll just looking at Georgia, and the question was, how does it impact your vote? 22% it makes me less likely to vote for Donald Trump. 23% it makes me more likely to vote for Donald Trump. And the rest say, doesn't make a difference to my vote. So what we're seeing here is basically, they don't care. Are you surprised at that, David? I'll start with you on that?

David Pakman
No, this seems pretty much in line with the, with the pre verdict polling, maybe a small shift away from Trump. I do think it's important to remember that Trump always says everything is great for him. He said the mar a Lago raid was great for his fundraising, and yet he lagged Biden's fundraising. And then he said that the indictments were great for his fundraising and polling, and he still continued to lag Biden in fundraising. And he's still lagging Biden by about 50% in fundraising. So I think the results are more or less what it seemed like they would be pre verdict, but I would take the claims that this is just doing such great things for his fundraising with a bit of a grain of salt, because when the actual FeC disclosures come out, Biden's about 50% ahead in any period you look at in fundraising, which is a pretty good proxy towards enthusiasm.

Megyn Kelly
Do you agree with that, Hogan? I mean, I think it's interesting that David went to the, like the money piece of it, because if you zoom out, this whole law fair campaign was not about snuffing down Trump's money raising and increasing Joe Biden's.

Hogan Gidley
Yeah, I think you've done such a great job on your show, kind of outlining the nuances and the issues with all of these cases.

David Pakman
Thank you.

Hogan Gidley
Over the past several weeks. And so it's been fascinating to watch.

David Pakman
Oh, he meant you, Megan. I'm so, I thought he was talking about the great job I've done. I'm so sorry, Hogan.

Megyn Kelly
But, you know, we're going to tune in coverage.

Hogan Gidley
I'm sure David has a great show, too.

But it's interesting because I think people who watch your show, right, left and center, are getting a better flavor of exactly what these whole, these, these attacks are all about. And when 67% of the country believes that they're politically motivated, 59% believe Biden is involved in them. You kind of realize we level set. So once the, the verdict comes down, what they wanted to do was bleed him dry financially, keep him from the campaign trail. They did that. I don't think they really thought they would get a conviction because as everyone said, on the right and the left, this was the weakest of all the cases. But that was the cherry on top, and they got it. But you saw reaction from the Biden campaign and the administration after the verdict, basically saying, no, this is going to be about November. Donald Trump said the same thing. Because I don't think the american people care that much about this type of stuff. As we talked about in the first segment, they care about their own ecosystem, their own environment, and what they're paying for goods and services now versus a few years ago. That's what the election's going to come down to.

And while weaponization of government and three letter agencies against average citizens, including Donald Trump, will be an issue in the campaign, I still think it comes back to the economy and immigration inflation more than anything else.

David Pakman
Can I say a couple of things?

Megyn Kelly
Yes, I can. But let me just tee this up, because I wanted to get to this point, too. Dave Ehrenberg, you know, Palm Beach County DA, a Democrat, he comes on the show and he and I were talking about how this verdict was going to affect the electorate. And I said Republicans are having the same kind of moment right now as they had when the attacks were launched on Brett Kavanaugh, where it had a way of uniting the Republican Party. And he said, well, Democrats are having the same thing. They're, you know, I've had Democrats stop me in the street saying they've never felt more enthusiastic about getting to the polls to vote for Joe Biden. So it was an interesting window into my world and his world. But the Times, the New York Times has a poll out today that captures exactly what's happening. And what it showed was, okay, there was a swing in the overall numbers. Trump pre the verdict was 48, Biden was 45. Now Trump is 47, Biden's 46. So went from a three point Trump lead to a one point Trump lead. But on the enthusiasm shift, Trump dominated. It shows that 18% of those who said that they support Trump but they weren't planning on voting like, they just, they like him, but they weren't that into him, have now decided they must cast their ballot for Trump. Just 3% of the comparable voters for Biden said the same. So go ahead.

David Pakman
So a couple of different things that were mentioned there that I think are important to mention. Hogan said that I can't speak to folks on the right, but that folks on the left were saying that this case was the weakest. It's not that we were saying it was the weakest. We were saying it was the least serious compared to the other ones in terms of the charges. But that doesn't mean the case is weak. And obviously the jurors didn't find it weak. Second thing I want to know, many.

Megyn Kelly
Democrats said it was weak. Did you? The New York Times had full op eds by former prosecutors saying this case is an embarrassment.

Hogan Gidley
Yes.

David Pakman
Okay. I didn't see that particular op ed. But I'm representing the views. My views and what, and what others.

Megyn Kelly
I speak to say on weaponization came out. I mean, you saw his piece. He said on weaponization, embarrassment. It's a Frankenstein. I mean. Okay, keep going. Though.

David Pakman
The claim that this is a weaponized Biden DOJ, to me, is very much undercut by the prosecution of Biden's own son, of Bob Menendez, of Henry Cuellar. The investigation into Corey Bush and Biden's not getting involved on unity. It's tough for me to see the republican party as united, thanks to the indictments based on almost 40% of the primary voters voting for someone other than Trump. And then last, I was talking about the verdict. Go back to.

You were talking about the verdict. Okay. The effect of that is the indict. The indictment certainly did not seem uniting. The last thing I've heard, Hogan mentioned the 67% of Americans believe the attacks are politically motivated. I looked everywhere for that poll, couldn't find it. I know he repeats it, and it's rarely challenged. What I did find is a poll from Ipsos yesterday which finds overwhelmingly that Americans think the prosecution upheld the rule of law and was not motivated by politics. So I couldn't find what Hogan's claiming. But the most important question I have about the public opinion pieces. Listen, public opinion is we should have some minimum standard for abortion. I can't imagine Hogan wants Roe v. Wade reinstated just on that basis. So I don't even know why he keeps bringing up the public opinion.

Megyn Kelly
Go ahead, Hogan.

Hogan Gidley
Yeah, it's a McLaughlin poll, by the way, cites a 67%, very low end.

David Pakman
Somewhere close to pollster.

Hogan Gidley
But nonetheless, I'm citing the poll. You cite a poll. It's up to the american people one way or the other.

I think weaponization is a serious issue. I don't think it's going to be a top five issue. But one of the reasons it's so important to, to our side is that it just seems as though if you hold a difference in opinion of those who have power, then you're targeted. Because if you're sitting outside of an abortion clinic singing and praying, you get arrested. If you go to a school board meeting and say, why are you teaching my children that they're racist? You get arrested. If you go to Loudoun County, Virginia, and say, why was my daughter raped in a bathroom with a transgender kid? You put there, who's a man, you get arrested. If you're a former president of the United States who participated in an NDA, that happens all of the time and the statute of limitations had gone past, and now we're going to try to make it a federal case. The whole thing reeks. The american people understand it. But again, regardless of the nuance at its core, what the american people want is fairness. And you pointed to the Hunter Biden case as an example of how. No, no, it's not biased. I point to it as an example of how it is exactly biased.

David Pakman
I figured you would.

Hogan Gidley
Reason we're there is because they had a sweetheart deal that somehow prevented Hunter from ever getting charged for any of the other many crimes he's committed in the future. And the judge goes, uh uh, I'm not falling for this one. So now we're in a court case where Hunter Biden clearly has committed this crime, and we'll wait and see the outcome. I, for one, don't think he's going to get convicted because it is Delaware. But nonetheless, that's a weak example to point to. For what about the other DOJ is not biased?

Speaker one
Speaker one?

David Pakman
Yeah. I mentioned three other examples. If one interesting thing to me about the Hunter Biden case is, and by the way, I think if he did this, then he should be found guilty and punished. Like, I. You know, when that congressman ten years ago was found with money in his freezer, or Anthony Weiner. Like, I don't go out of my way to defend people because they're Democrats. I'm not even a Democrat. But there is one interesting statistic about the Hunter Biden case, which is, if you want to talk about selective prosecution, only 0.04% of instances where someone puts incorrect information on a gun application when they should not be allowed to have a gun, 0.04% over a ten year period are even prosecuted. So if there's any sort of arbitrary selection of who to go after, it seems that that's a great example of it.

Hogan Gidley
Can we, can we please talk about this trial, Megan, for a minute?

Megyn Kelly
Yeah.

Hogan Gidley
Is this, is this where we're shifting this interview to? Because I would love to have a conversation.

Megyn Kelly
Love to talk about Hunter Biden's trial.

Hogan Gidley
Okay.

The rich irony, the, the, the beautiful truth that submitted into evidence was the hunter Biden laptop.

For the whole basis of this is so wonderful.

51 intel agents came out and said it was russian disinformation, had the markings of some type of russian operation.

Only one of two things could be true at the time.

Either one, these 51 intel agents have no idea how to spot russian disinformation, which is terrifying, or two, they knew it wasn't and lied about it. Either way, it's a very significant problem. And while this gun charge is important in the here and now, and let me digress for a minute, I don't want to hear one Democrat say a single word this election cycle about gun control, paying your fair share in taxes or white privilege. I think that's off the table now because of Hunter Biden. I'm less concerned about this topic and I'm way more concerned about the millions of dollars he received from foreign governments. 10% for the big guy, the 21 shell corporations, the $20 million. I'm way more.

Megyn Kelly
We won't be hearing about that because the statute of limitations on those crimes was allowed to expire by David Weiss, us attorney for the district of Delaware. Go ahead, Dave.

Hogan Gidley
Yeah.

David Pakman
It also just so happens that James Comer and his cronies have been waxing poetic about all the stuff they're going to find and they're going to get him and all these things, it's led to nothing. And comer, privately or not privately, in fundraising emails for six months now, Comer has been writing to people begging for money, saying, we're not actually going to find anything we can impeach this guy on. Instead, you've just got to donate money so I can get reelected and keep doing more stuff starting in 2025. It is the biggest ruse. And what's fascinating is even a lot of Trump supporters that we've interviewed at rallies see through it and they go, there's nothing there. This guy's been in politics 50 years. They've looked at it. They've got nothing on the gas.

Megyn Kelly
It does not look like the comer investigation is going anywhere. But I do think it's interesting that, you know, the question about, we opened our show with this yesterday.

You had the 51 intelligence agencies, the experts saying it's russian disinformation, all the earmarks, et cetera. Politico, with its big blockbuster article russian disinformation, it got suppressed. The New York Post reporting on the laptop. And then the government opened its case. The government opened its case with an FBI agent saying it's real. And we knew it was real. At the same time, all those so called intel experts were saying it wasn't real. We'd known for a year. I mean, the american public were misled actively by multiple organizations and so called experts connected with the Democratic Party because it was Joe Biden's emissary, Anthony Blinken, who got that letter pushed out there. And then they have the gall to turn around and say, oh, the Republicans are the ones who interfere with elections.

They do. I mean, this, yeah. This happened three weeks before the 2020 presidential election. And like you look at that, how do you expect the american people to trust any of these experts or the Democrats claiming they have clean hands on this stuff?

David Pakman
You're asking me?

Yeah, I don't think the american people are voting based on what intelligence agents say about Hunter Biden's laptop. I have a couple on the story. It's. I don't think there's any other show.

Megyn Kelly
They did show me a poll show.

David Pakman
Paying attention to that.

Megyn Kelly
They were, there are multiple polls. I mean, honestly, there's. Hold on. I have right here now, there are multiple polls showed to the 100. Let me give you one that you would like, okay. From your side of the aisle. Politifact. They're constantly fact checking only republicans. They were checking somebody who said that the polling was as much as 50% of the voters saying, I might have voted, changed my vote had I seen it was on that laptop. Their fact checked said it was more like 20% of the electorate who would have changed their vote had they seen a laptop. And there's multiple polls on it, Dave. Multiple.

David Pakman
You're telling me there's polling right now that suggests the american people may base their votes in November on what intelligence agencies?

Megyn Kelly
We're talking about 2020. We're talking about 2020 and 2020. Stealing. Speaker.

Speaker one
Speaker one.

David Pakman
My understanding about 2020 is twofold. Number one, that the, a lot of the suppression that people are talking about is illegal, explicit images that violate both state law and the rules.

Megyn Kelly
No one gives a shit about Hunter Biden's genitals. It has to do with his corruption.

Hogan Gidley
Yeah, there is a. There is a reason that the mainstream media's popularity sits somewhere between Congress and Covid.

It's because for decades in this country, they've been lying to us about everything. It's not just about who the left or these agencies prosecute. It's also about who they protect. And this is a clear example. You mentioned the statute of limitation has gone past on Hunter Biden's taxes. Yeah. So the statute of limitations on Donald Trump, they changed the law to get him. And then now we find out they slow walk the potential charges in the Hunter Biden case to prevent it from coming forward. This is so obvious to so many people. And it's not just that they're hearing the news. They don't like it. It has impacted their lives so negatively. Whether it was the Russia collusion hoax or Covid lies of course, up one side, down the other. Hunter Biden's laptop, Ashley Biden's diary, the Lafayette square, whatever it had to do with, if it's on the right, they tried to suppress it and they colluded with the government to do so. The people are terrified by that. And I think it's going to motivate them greatly in November.

Megyn Kelly
We're going to get cut off in 18 seconds. But that was fun, you guys on a tight wire. It's fun having you both here.

David Pakman
I don't know that you needed me, Megan.

Megyn Kelly
I think you did a great job. Dave, thanks for being here. Back next with Rameen Satuta of Variety magazine. Don't go away.

So there's a new book out, and it's about Donald Trump and his time hosting the Apprentice and with some comparisons to his time as president of the United States. And it was written with the cooperation of Donald Trump himself.

And we've got the writer on now. But here's the backstory. He was already, as you know, a household name when he walked into the boardroom of NBC's reality show the Apprentice and then later the celebrity Apprentice and all of it. But that program thrust him into unchartered waters of fame. Truly, he became internationally known. Looking back, the show proved to be much more than just a hit. It ultimately changed american history.

I mean, many would argue that it laid the foundation for and made possible his successful run for president.

Ramin Satuta, who's co editor in chief of Variety, is author of the new book. It's called Apprentice in Wonderland, how Donald Trump and Mark Burnett took America through the Looking Glass. It's out June 18, and it's available for preorder right now. Ramin joins me now in this exclusive interview to share the untold story of the Apprentice. Ramin, welcome.

Speaker one
Hi, Megan. That was the perfect encapsulation of my book. I think you and I need to go on book tour together because you described it perfect, set it up perfectly. And this is the first interview I'm giving, and I'm so excited to be talking to you.

Megyn Kelly
This is a great idea, Rameen. It was a great idea. Like, all I could think when I was reading this was, we need to, like, reboot the Apprentice. It made me want to see all this cast of characters again, because you go into some of the ones who became stars and the controversial, quote, firings of them by Trump and how Trump negotiated his way through all of it. And it's like a fascinating window into his real rise to stardom. Like, we knew him in New York, generally in America, people had an idea. It was like this Playboy real estate mogul, but it was this show that not only made him a household name, but really, this is what made him rich. Like, the real estate empire was one thing, but, like, the real money came.

Speaker one
From the show he made. According to filings, he made $213 million over the 14 seasons that he hosted the Apprentice. But I think even more importantly for him was that the apprentice made him into a national hero. Americans love Donald Trump because of the character he played on the Apprentice, this tough, smart, funny boardroom boss that would go in every week and fire people and hire people. And he was always in charge. And I think that really set the template for the campaign.

And that's what Eric Trump says. That's what Donald Trump says. I spent a lot of time interviewing Donald Trump for this book because I really wanted to talk to him about his memories of the show, what the show meant to him, and it still means a great deal to him. The reason he gave me so much time, we talked starting in 2021 through 2023, through the winter, we talked six times. I sat down with him four times. I was in a boardroom in Trump Tower. Clips of the show together was that this show still means very much to him, and he has such great memories of hosting the show.

Megyn Kelly
Wow. All right, so let's take us back, because the way he got the show and his deal for season one versus season two is actually very interesting. So how did. How is it born?

Speaker one
It was born, actually because of survivor, because Mark Burnett, the super producer that created Survivor, was looking for a place to shoot one of the finales of Survivor. And he came upon Woolman Rink, which Donald Trump had renovated and owned at the time. And so they met there. And Mark Burnett was looking for a different kind of reality show like survivor, but set in his city, where instead of competing to see who would survive, it was competing to see who would thrive. And upon meeting Donald Trump, he had this idea that, oh, maybe Donald Trump could be the boardroom boss in the first season of the show. But in Mark Burnett's mind, he was going to change the boss every season and have a different celebrity in the same way that he also is behind the voice. Voice. And on the voice every season, there's a different celebrity singer judging all the contestants. And so in his mind, he thought, okay, we'll do this with Donald Trump for a year. They paid Donald Trump for one season. Jeff Zucker was running NBC Universal at the time. Zucker later went on to run CNN went on to fight a lot with Trump publicly, but at the time, he was running NBC, and they were only paying Trump $25,000 an episode.

And he came.

Megyn Kelly
And by the way, you point out in the book that before this offer, Trump had received a number of offers to do reality television, but he was not interested. They were too small ball.

Speaker one
This was the era of the Osbournes, where it was like you saw the Osborne family interacting and Sharon yelling at the kids and fighting with her husband. And so I think there was concern for Trump. He didn't really want to do something with his family or his kids or him trying to be a good dad or a bad dad or whatever they were going to capture on air. And so this appealed to him because he got to be in charge and he got to talk about his businesses, and he got to film it in Trump Tower. And it was really an advertisement for not only him, but his entire family.

Megyn Kelly
And you think about it now, it makes perfect sense, right? Because he. What is Trump above all else? He's a marketing genius. Keep going.

Speaker one
And so he comes in. He does the first season in 2004. It premieres in the winter of 2004.

There were.

Megyn Kelly
Stand by, stand by. Sorry to interrupt you again, but we do have a little clip from season one and the opening. Watch it.

Donald Trump
New York, my city, where the wheels of the global economy never stop turning.

My name's Donald Trump. I was billions of dollars in debt, but I fought back and I won. I'm looking for the apprentice.

And who will be the apprentice?

Megyn Kelly
Wow, that's 2004. So different from where it would ultimately wind up, right. With a money, money, money.

Speaker one
Very, very different. Well, the theme song comes after that, but that is the intro to the very first episode. And he, that's how Americans got to know him. And he seems powerful, he seems cool. He seems smart.

He seems very likable. And Donald Trump and I actually watched that opening together, and we watched the theme song together. He hadn't seen it in years, and it brought so much joy to him. He smiled. He was very happy, reminiscing about how popular he was. But it became very quickly one of the biggest shows on tv, not as big as maybe sometimes he says in terms of his ratings, because he sometimes inflated the ratings. But it was a huge show. The season finale for the first season was the biggest show in America that week.

And Donald Trump became a megastar.

Megyn Kelly
Yes. Okay. So did this show take off immediately was an instant hit.

Speaker one
It was actually an instant hit. The first episode did very well.

And the second episode did very well. And then NBC made the mistake of programming it against American Idol in the first season, and it stopped doing well. Donald Trump was very upset about that. And then they quickly fixed it and moved it back to Thursday night. But back then on NBC being on Thursday night, that was for friends, that was for Will and grace. That was for the best programs. And they didn't think reality rose to that occasion. And one of the things that Jeff Zucker did at the time, he thought, no, this makes sense. On Thursday nights, richest, most expensive advertisers are going to back the show because it's about business and it's going to attract a smart audience. And it did.

Megyn Kelly
Okay, so now we get to season two, and it's, it's a whole new ballgame, because Trump intentionally did not do a long term deal and NBC didn't want a long term deal. Oh, and before I get to that, can you just spend a minute on how Trump overruled his agents? His agent, Jim Griffin, who I used to know a little who did not want him to have anything to do with this.

Hogan Gidley
Yeah.

Speaker one
So he got his agent through Regis Philman. Trump was very much a New York figure, loved hanging out with a lot of celebrities, was very liked by a lot of celebrities at the time. And so he got his agent, Jim, at William Morris, and Jim said, you absolutely shouldn't do this, Donald. This is going to be terrible for your career. They're going to make fun of you. It's not going to be successful. The tabloids are going to make fun of you even more. And Donald Trump, actually, there was a moment where he wasn't quite sure, and then he decided to move forward because he had given Mark Burnett a handshake and decided to move forward. And there really wasn't an understanding when he signed on for what the show actually was gonna be. Mark Burnett kind of pitched it. There was a soft pitch. He brought in George and Carolyn, two of his advisors from the Trump Organization. But no one really had a real understanding of how these. Cause the contestants were separated into men and women, and they would run around New York City doing all these tasks, and Trump would appear at the beginning of the episode, at the end of the episode. But there was real, they couldn't really visualize what this was gonna be until that first season aired. And then they realized this was braiding's golden. And then we get to season two because NBC doesn't have a contract with Trump.

Megyn Kelly
And now, and also, I should spend 1 minute on, you're fired because you write about how that famous phrase you fired came into being.

Speaker one
So Trump says that it was supposed to be something much milder. And he was in the first boardroom. He's firing a man named David Gold for the very first episode. And he said that he ad libbed it and it came to him kind of in the moment. And according to Trump's memory, when he said it, the entire crew cheered, the entire cast cheered, and they knew that that was the catchphrase that was going to end every episode. And it was a very effective catchphrase. Those Trump dolls that everyone bought in the early two thousands would say, you're fired. And it really followed him everywhere for many years. People would point to him and say, because they love that. They love the fact that he was tough and he could make decisions and he was decisive. And it really, again, set the template for the kind of president that he campaigned as.

Megyn Kelly
Yeah, I hear a rumor, it's unconfirmed that James Comey sleeps with one of those little dolls next to his bed. And when he rolls over and hits it, he. Oh, but it's like part of his trauma therapy. Sorry, political joke. Okay.

Yeah. You write in the book that it was originally supposed to be a phrase, something like, you won't be joining us for the rest of the season, or something like wordy and too mild. And he changed it something to the.

Speaker one
Fact that, yeah, you're not going to cut it. Um, something very, very weak. And he changed it to something that stronger and much catchier.

Megyn Kelly
Ok, so now comes. So season one worked out beautifully, but when we last left off, Mark Burnett was thinking he would replace Donald Trump with a different celebrity type mogul. So what happened?

Speaker one
So they realized that this wasn't going to be a good idea. Once you have a huge hit, the scale of the Apprentice, you need Donald Trump to stay on the show. And so that's when things got very nasty between Trump and Jeff Zucker.

And Trump asked because he was looking at the landscape of tv. He didn't know a lot about Hollywood, but he was very informed, interested, followed all the ratings. Very, very interested in the ratings. He'd get the ratings by fax, he'd fax it to people. Everyone in Hollywood was based in, obviously, in LA, and Trump was in New York. So he'd get up extra early, get the ratings, and share the ratings with everyone else. So he knew how big the show was. And there was a period where friends was in reruns as it was about to end. And Trump saw that the apprentice was doing better. Than friends. And so he demanded, because there were six actors on friends, and at the time, each of those actors were making a million dollars an episode. Trump demanded $6 million an episode from NBC to come back to the Apprentice for season two.

Megyn Kelly
And this is 2005 numbers, which, you know, 6 million. It sounds like a lot per episode now, but it was even more 20 years ago. So what happened?

Speaker one
And you're filming 24 episodes a season, so that he's asking for $90 million to be on the Apprentice for three months.

Even by now, that's an astronomical amount of money. That's. Movie stars don't even get paid that. And so Jeff Zucker said, absolutely not. They got into a huge fight. That was the first time Donald Trump probably fought with Jeff Zucker. They got into a huge fight. Jeff Zucker said, forget it. We'll get someone else. Trump said, fine, get someone else. They went back and forth, and then a few days later, Zucker called Trump and said, you know what? Actually, we need you. And they. So they signed a deal. But the thing about the apprentice that I found really interesting, because a lot of people talk about it, and they're not really sure how Donald Trump made so much money off the show. But Mark Burnett, who created the show, had this very smart thing that he did when he sold the show to NBC, in that he said that all the product placement revenue, because they were brands that would come in and sell jeans or food or cereal or whatever it was as part of the task, all that revenue, he said, went to him as the creator of the show. And then to appease Trump, Mark Burnett split that revenue with Trump.

So every episode in the second season, as this was one of the biggest shows on tv, as they were having General Motors come in and show off their new car or Mattel come in and show off their new toy, that money went directly into Trump and Mark Burnett's bank. And that is really where Donald Trump made his fortune from the Apprentice. There's a lot of confusion and back and forth and questioning about how much money Trump actually made on the show, but he made a significant amount of money because of this deal that Mark Burnett had engineered, and it really allowed Trump to become rich in a different way from all the revenue that he was making off the Apprentice.

Megyn Kelly
It's fun. Mark Burnett has very strong selection powers because I'll tell you, not only did he see Trump in this role, but he owns my sweet thunder. She's my good dog.

He owns Thunder's sibling. So his wife and I sometimes share pictures of our dogs because they're siblings. So he chose from a, from a great litter, just like I did. And then things went south after my. After Thunder trigger. Ok. Anyway, so Mark Burnett is rolling in dough. So is Donald Trump there? They've got a deal set for season two. And what was Trump like? So this is like, he wasn't, I mean, as comfortable on tv, I'm sure, in the early days as he ultimately would become. What was he like? Especially early on, what was interesting was.

Speaker one
I really wanted to write a book that was fair to Trump, which I know there's been a million Trump books out there and everyone, a lot of them say similar things or have similar stories. I wanted to write a book that was fair to Trump and also told the definitive origin story of who Trump was. And I actually was writing for the Apprentice at the time. That's how I came up with this idea. I was a young reporter at Newsweek and I was writing about the show. And so I would call Donald Trump up. He would always take my calls at the time. He would give me a quote to. He didn't even know necessarily I was from Newsweek. He would think I was from Newsday or whoever I was from. It didn't really matter to him. He just loved talking to journalists and loved talking to press.

And he still. I think he still does, because that's why he kept talking to me and wants good press. That's really very, very important to him. But at the time, Donald Trump wasn't really familiar with Hollywood and how the industry worked. And he channeled a lot of time in these contestants and he, in a lot of reality shows. It's not really what you see, obviously. It's all edited and created, and there was a lot of that on the apprentice. But off camera, Trump became friends with the contestants, tried to mentor them, would invite them to his office, would hang out with them, would ask them to work for him for free.

He got really attached to the contestants in season one and two. And what's really interesting is that although some of the contestants don't really politically like him or politically want to vote for him, they almost all universally say how welcoming he was, how warm he was, how charismatic he was, even though many of them didn't think that he would be or had preconceived notions. So there is a quality to him. And Donald Trump and I talked about this. He calls it his own star power and compares himself to Clint Eastwood in the same way that Clint Eastwood makes dirty, hairy movies. But he had, believe it or not, big surprise there. But I'll let your listeners decide whether or not that analogy holds. But there was a real alchemy between him and the contestants. And he loved this show. He loved being on camera. He loved the attention, he loved the press. He did every interview he was asked to do, didn't matter who it was. And he also didn't employ a publicist so journalists could call his office, get him on the phone, and he became this tv star. That was really, really exciting. It was a very exciting time for him.

Megyn Kelly
So he did have, I shouldn't underplay the amount of pr exposure Donald Trump had had prior to launching the Apprentice. I mean, he was all over the news, as we saw recently, we're talking about that central park five case. You know, he, he would see something, he would write an op ed, he would go on television, Larry King and elsewhere to talk just about his views. He was always very outspoken, politically and culturally, and would constantly be interviewed by press, local and national. So it wasn't like he was a stranger to the media. But this is his first time hosting a big show and being actually like a paid kind of actor star of a show and what do people say, like the production staff and so on, that he was difficult to work with or that he was nice to work with?

Speaker one
Yeah, this is the first time he was really front and center. He'd been in home alone. He'd done a lot of cameos, but always he was kind of in the background. So this made him into a star. And also in New York, people knew him, but this made him a star in millions of homes around the country.

Truthfully, in the early days of the show, the biggest issue was that he wanted to spend so much time with the contestants. And the producers were trying to, once the contestants were fired, they really were supposed to go on their way. And Donald Trump kept trying to hire them, bringing them into the Trump Organization, using them for publicity, using them to advance his own brand. And it was almost like he had these adoptive kids that he really, really wanted to be with all the time. He would throw up his birthday party and invite them.

But the stories that I had from the early seasons, and certainly there have been stories that have been reported when he ran for president the first time, and we've heard from people behind the scenes and producers and things, not everything was perfect, but in the early days of the Apprentice, there was a lot of goodwill towards him, and he was very, just very excited to be on the show. He didn't necessarily understand what was happening sometimes because he wasn't watching the tasks. So there was a lot of work in the editing room to get the narrative of the show to work. But in the early seasons, it was, people thought he was a character, and it was fun to be around him.

Megyn Kelly
I've interviewed Trump multiple times, and every single time when we've sat down for the interview or just before, he directs the lighting, he makes sure the camera shot is the way he wants it. He looks at the set, he clears it of debris like he cares. He approaches it like a seasoned television veteran, and you almost forget. That's because he was the host of the most popular show in America. For how many years did it run?

Speaker one
It was 14 seasons. It's a long time. They do two seasons a year because it was so popular.

But he is someone who feels very comfortable in front of a camera and loves being in front of a camera.

Megyn Kelly
Yes. So just. I forgot to play this, but here's a little walk down. You're fired. Lane, watch this. Saat 26.

Donald Trump
You're fired.

You're fired. You're fired. You're fired. You're fired. You're fired. You're fired. You're fired. You're fired. You're fired.

You're fired.

Megyn Kelly
And, Ravine, you actually write about the little hand gesture, like, you're fired. Like, in and out with the hand. For the listening audience, it's like your, your kind of fist, your open fist is up by your shoulder, and you flick it forward and pull it back.

Speaker one
He was so. We watched that clip, too. We were showing the same clips. It's like you. You're reading my mind. But Trump and I watched that clip and your book, and he was so happy to see himself deliver that line. And he also talked about how, you know, I didn't need very many takes. I was really good on camera. I would just deliver it, and everyone would agree with what I said. It was really. It's, you know, it's his calling card. He's very, very proud of what he accomplished on the show.

Megyn Kelly
So you spend a little time in the book on the greatest star of the Apprentice ever after, Trump. And that is Omarosa, who achieved first name only status. Here's a quick look back at some of her antics.

Speaker one
Can't tell that, Katrina, because we sleep.

Megyn Kelly
In the same room.

Speaker one
Yet you couldn't say to me, I had a problem with XYZ because I felt like you were being fake. I think being fake is waiting until I'm sitting in front of seven women. And then, you know, I'm very nice to everybody. I get along with that.

Megyn Kelly
I get along with. You know why? Cause I'm a good person.

Speaker one
I am. Truth, in my opinion, this is where.

Megyn Kelly
The personal attacks come in.

Speaker one
I didn't come here to make friends.

Megyn Kelly
I said that from day one.

Speaker one
And if you all stop being so freaking sensitive.

Megyn Kelly
Okay, so Omarosa was the reason to tune in, but she was on multiple times. She came back, and Trump knew it.

Speaker one
They loved Omarosa. And even watching that now, like, when I went back and rewatched the show, it's still an incredibly entertaining show, especially that first season. It's like the perfect season of reality tv. It's fun. The challenges are fun. Trump is the perfect person to host the show. It's just really, really entertaining. And with Omarosa, she came in, she had some very limited experience in the Clinton White House as an aide, and she came in, her career really wasn't going the direction she wanted to, so she tried out for the show, and she became the character that everyone loved to hate. She would say one thing to one person, one thing to another person, and they made her out to be this huge villain on the Apprentice. And Trump really liked that because she got so much attention, but not any attention that would take away attention from him. So they all thought that Omarosa was great for ratings. They brought her back twice when there were celebrity editions of the Apprentice in later years. And she obviously went with Trump to the White House. But Trump said something.

Megyn Kelly
Yeah, and then he brought her back another time. He had her working in the White House. I actually interviewed her during that time, and she was talking about she was doing real policy at points, like trying to increase the refugees from Haiti she'd been taught. I'm trying to remember some of the agenda items that she said she'd been put in charge of. But then ultimately, it ended, as it did repeatedly, between Omarosa and Trump, in ruination and despair, where she was fired by John Kelly, too, just as she was on the Apprentice. Here, I'll show you the Apprentice. Firing in sat 27.

Donald Trump
By the way, all my life, I've been hit on the head with plaster.

I just don't get it.

Megyn Kelly
Come on.

I've been running around, have problems.

Donald Trump
Life is full of problems. You're fired.

Megyn Kelly
I was a little tough with that. Was a tough one. Go ahead, Ramin.

Speaker one
So I asked Trump why he took Omarosa to the White House, because I think that's a question that many of us had at the time, because obviously there was so much drama around her. And he said, sometimes he does things as an and this is going into sort of looking at him as a reality star and then also looking at him and the choices he makes as a politician. He says he likes to do things as an experiment just to see, he knows they're not going to work, but he just likes to do it as an experiment just to see if it's not going to work. And I think he likes the trauma. He likes the chaos.

This book is called Apprentice in Wonderland because Jared Kushner and some reports from the White House once compared Trump to the Cheshire cat from Alice in Wonderland. And that he really embraces confusion and likes to see people scramble and likes to see things turned upside down. And I think by introducing Omarosa to the White House, he was programming a reality show, right? He knew that she would be good for, quote, ratings, and he probably also knew, or at least he said to me, that it wouldn't end well, but he thought it would be something interesting just to watch. And he's really interested in that. He's interested in creating a spectacle, and he's also interested in creating so much of a spectacle that there's no room for or headlines for anyone else, which is what we're seeing right now. And, you know, obviously.

Megyn Kelly
Okay, this is where the rubber meets the road. This is where the book gets really interesting, because I love talking about the apprentice. I used to love the show, I'll be honest. But what's really interesting about this book is that it shows us how all the things you and I have just discussed are preludes to and windows of insight into President Trump, how he got it and how he managed it when he had the presidency. And that's, that's such an interesting way into him. Of all the bios that have been written about Trump, that's such a new and interesting way into understanding him. This is one of the things where even prior to becoming the host of the Apprentice, he used to pit, you write this in the book, like the New York Post and the New York Daily News against each other. And then he gets on the apprentice, and he picks to, to try to pit against each other there and then. We did see him do the same thing in the White House, and he.

Speaker one
Treats his advisors in the White House like they're contestants on a reality show, and he does pit them against each other. And he does love firing people, and he does love being obviously, the boss in every room that he's in. But this created the template for the politician that Trump became. And this is a really underestimated, undervalued comparison. I think often when political reporters are writing about Trump and the Trump White House, it goes from real estate to politics. And Eric Trump and I talked about this. Even Eric Trump said that this, this is part of his father's legacy. This taught, being on the Apprentice, being in the boardroom taught his father how to react to candidates when he debated them in 2016 in a very crowded republican field. It taught Trump how to use and.

Megyn Kelly
Moderators, you point out in the book, and moderators.

Speaker one
Can I wait? Actually, can I ask you about that? Because I wanted to get. Yeah, so Eric still mentioned the question that you asked Trump in 2015. He called it a, quote, sabotage question, which was a great question, by the way. And why is it ten years later, they're still thinking about that? I mean, you really, like, asked him a great question right out of the gate. But why are we still talking about that question? To me, I think it's because, it's because he's used to being on a reality show. And when you're on a reality show, you create feuds and you create fight and you create unnecessary drama, and you're really mean to people and say completely crazy things because it's good for ratings. And I think he follows that playbook. And unfortunately, it was very hurtful and awful and, and everyone came together to talk about how inappropriate that was. But it, it's, it's what he's been conditioned to do because he was a reality star.

Megyn Kelly
Well, that's fascinating. I mean, I will tell you, it was like, it's crazy to me that we went through all the thing, and I remember you and I did an interview at the time. We talked about it, but, but, you know, all this time passed. And I interviewed him in September, last September. So it's, you know, 2023.

And I first I saw him in July at a turning point event, and then I sat down with him in September. And both times, the very first thing he said to me was, did Roger Ailes know that you were going to ask me that question? That's the first words out of his mouth both times at the debate.

And like I had answered, by the time I saw him in September, I had just answered it in July. But it still on his mind. And all I could think was, you've been the president since then.

Move on. Why would you still be thinking about that?

But he does, he brings it up still in his public events. It's incredible to me. I don't know why he's so obsessed with it. But I would suggest for the record that me suggesting in that question that Trump may have some issue with the Democrats using his history with women against him did prove valid.

Speaker one
You were absolutely right. You were. You, you nailed it. Like, you were. You were. That was exactly the question to ask him in the first debate. And you were right because you're really.

Megyn Kelly
Kind of going over, like, what are your weaknesses? What are people going to use against you? Why should the Republicans nominate you or not nominate you? And you could see it coming like a Mack truck. I can see what they're going to use against you, sir. But he took it very personally. I think now we know why. Because, because we've heard even in this Trump trial that behind the scenes he was very worried about the woman issue. He had already been worried about it. And it wasn't because of anything I did. It was because he understood he was playboy. And this is what the Democrats do. Look what they did to poor Mitt Romney just because he said binders full of women. And so he saw it coming and he thought that this would open up a floodgate that he didn't want open. So I don't know why he still thinks about it, but I do think he, you're right. He likes drama. And he saw an opportunity to create drama between the two of us. And he definitely had fun with it. It was not fun for yours truly, but thank God it's pretty much over. He's, you know, he's, he gets mad at me sometimes, but overall, I think we're fine. And I think Eric Trump was right. He had a great response to my question with the Rosie O'Donnell, you know, like, they were cheering him on in it. So you would think he would just kind of move on, but he didn't move on. I think it was a combination of genuinely being irritated and worried and loving drama and needing it.

Speaker one
But he also always needs to face off against something or someone.

And so in all the time that I spent with him, he still remembers, even after he's been president of the United States, he still remembers that Deborah Messing was once nice to him and now she's not nice to him. He remembers that once came to his house and now she says the nastiest things. He really keeps track of every single, I mean, it's extraordinary that he has the time to do this. He keeps track of every feud, every negative comment that anyone said.

He actually would ask. Sometimes one of his advisors, what have they said about me? And try to weigh how hard he should punch at a certain person or a famous person based on what they've said about him, it really is part of his image of, if someone says anything negative about me, he's going to strike back so hard.

Megyn Kelly
But it depends on the person, right? Because even recently, he was on the campaign stomp, and I had said something about him losing a step, you know, nothing in comparison to Joe Biden in my view. But, you know, that I didn't think the Trump of 2024 was quite as fast as the Trump of 2016. I mean, by political commentary standards, it was rather mild, but he clearly heard it and didn't like it. And so he went out there and started hitting me. And, which is fine, that's politics. But I have to say, it did occur to me, like, why would he call out so something like that? A relatively benign observation of mine, when look at what they say about him every day, all day on CNN, up and down the lineup, MSNBC, up and down the lineup. Take any single Sunday show, ABC, NBC Nightly News, like we get. Who cares about a passing mild comment? So it does depend on the person. The people, I think he thinks ought to, like, be uniformly in his camp and, like, on his side because he was nice to them or whatever. He gets mad. And, you know, I've tried to explain to him many times, like, I'm not in your camp. I'm a journalist. I have to cover you fairly. That's my only goal.

Speaker one
Well, he listens to your show, clearly. He's probably listening to us right now.

Megyn Kelly
He certainly watches some clips here and there. That's for sure. Okay. But anyway, so he's out there doing in the campaign for president the same thing he did on the Apprentice than before. And now he gets into the White House. And this is the most fascinating part of the book to me.

You really zero in on how he did not get happier.

Trump's life really was not improved by this move from being the host of this huge show to being the leader of the free world.

Speaker one
No, it wasn't. And when we talked in all the times we talked together, when he told stories about the Apprentice, there was a different demeanor. He was cracking jokes. He was more relaxed. He was more like the old Trump. And then sometimes, because I went in there and I said, this is really about your connection to the media and television. It's about, this is about this period of your life. We don't have to go through every period as president. We want to talk really about the Apprentice. But then you've interviewed Trump. You know that his stories can't be contained to one topic. He says one thing, and something else, he goes something else. And so then he would sort of go into these cascading stories about, you know, how people didn't listen to him as president, people didn't value him as president. There was a lot of negativity associated with his years as president. And I think that's because the image that he has now is not of someone who is widely beloved. It's more of a figure that there's, half the country loves him and half the country doesn't. And so I think he misses the days where everyone in America loved him, and that was when he was a reality star. When he was a reality star, everyone looked up to him and we're excited to see him, and things are different now. And I think that is really, that really triggers this frustration with him as a politician, because he wants to be broadly popular and he wants to be liked by everyone.

Megyn Kelly
Yeah. And it's just not a possibility. And, in fact, he's been so demonized. Like, that's what's so crazy about Trump, that people are not able to, like, conceive of the notion that he likes to be provocative. You know, it's much better to look at what Trump does than at what Trump says when trying to figure out what he will do right in the future. He likes to be provocative, but they can't bake this into the cake when assessing him. So the thing that made him a star also makes him one of the most controversial figures we've ever had in the presidential, in the presidency.

Speaker one
And people always wanted to know, because I told a small circle of friends that I was doing this book, they wanted to know, what is he like in the room? Is he mean, is he scary? Is he, uh. Does he say offensive things? Does he use slurs? And it's in the room like it is. It's like in the room. He's very charming, he's charismatic. He is, he has this Bill Clinton quality where it's like you're in the room and, you know, he's funny.

And he kept extending our time together. He enjoyed talking to me, even though he would, you know, write about how awful journalists are and how terrible they are. As he was sitting and talking to journalists, he would then invite me back, or he would, you know, say, this is, you know, I don't have very much time, and then we would have extra time.

He really loves to hear himself talk. He loves to tell stories, but he's, you know, in the room, there's something very charismatic about him. And I want to make sure that that's also conveyed in the book. And he's very funny also in real life. And sometimes I don't know if he's intentionally trying to be funny or if he's just funny, but there's a lot of things he says that are ironic or unexpected or surprising. It's always very entertaining being in the room with Donald Trump.

Megyn Kelly
Yeah, that's true. I have had exactly the same experience. All right, now stand by. We're going to take a quick break, and then we're going to come back and we're going to talk about some of the things that are in the news right now. We discussed this a bit yesterday, but there's now a former staffer on the apprentice who was pretty high up coming out and making, renewing some incendiary allegations about Trump and things he allegedly said or didn't say. We'll get into that next with Ramin, who stays with us. You could be going into your 78th year enjoying this beautiful golf course, Mar a Lago, your lovely family.

No, you don't have to be running for president, sitting for four criminal trials, some civil and possibly looking at jail time.

Hogan Gidley
No.

Megyn Kelly
Is it worth it?

Donald Trump
Yeah.

Make America great again. Our country's going to hell. Our country's going down. You don't realize it. I don't believe you realize it, but our country's going down. Our country, and I used to say we're going to end up being, if we don't do certain things, we're going to end up being Venezuela on steroids. How about we're buying oil now from Venezuela? How about that? We're making Venezuela rich. Okay? Think of it. The people running Venezuela, which were total enemies. What we're doing is so crazy. We're not using our oil. We're making Venezuela rich. But the country, I believe, has one last chance, and that's this is the most important election we've ever had.

Megyn Kelly
Welcome back to the Megyn Kelly show. That was a bit from my interview with Donald Trump in September. I'm joined today by Ramin Satuta. His book, which is coming out on June 18, is called Apprentice in Wonderland, how Donald Trump and Mark Burnett took America through the Looking Glass, written with the cooperation of the former president and a fascinating window, speaking of windows, into the man, the president, and honestly, his effect on the country. It's available for preorder now. Again, celebrity or apprentice in Wonderland. So that's the real question, Ramin. Like, do you think he regrets it? Do you think he regrets leaving the apprentice? Because that's you know, he left the apprentice. The next thing we knew, there was all speculation, will he renew or will he run for president? He ran for president.

Speaker one
I think that that question that you asked, and I remember thinking it at the time, that is the question. He could have been so much happier if he just stayed on the Apprentice. And a lot of the executives at NBC, when Trump announced that he was running in 2015, thought this was, you know, this. He's just going to do this to get a little bit more publicity. He's going to try to negotiate for a little more money, and then he's going to go back to hosting the Apprentice. And so one of the questions I asked him in our last meeting together was, if you had not become president of the United States, would you have tried to go back to the Apprentice?

Because I believe that that is what made him happiest, and that is the job that he liked doing the best. And he said no. Because I think Donald Trump isn't one to admit that he's not doing the thing that he loves the most at this moment. But I really do think that he never really wanted to say goodbye to the show permanently when he ran for president. And I do think he misses the show. And I really do think they left the boardroom intact when Trump was running for president in 2015. That's one of the things I uncovered in my reporting and talking to the Trump family and executive producers who worked on the show and Eric Trump, they left the entire set, which was on the 14th floor of Trump Tower, in place as Trump was running for president and seeing whether or not this political thing would have longevity. They were, you know, they clearly had plans for potentially going back. Donald Trump wanted Ivanka to take over and become the next host, and he wanted Eric and Don Junior to be the boardroom advisors. So this was something he really did want to keep in the family and wanted to keep extending future season of the Apprentice with the Trump brand continuing to be part of it.

Megyn Kelly
Wow. But then he shocked the world and won and won. That's, I mean, it's just so crazy. Now he's back again.

So one of the things you cover in there is something that I remember well, and that is NBC turned on him short. Very shortly into his run, they turned on their biggest star. God, they're terrible over there. But anyway, they turned on their biggest star because of his comments about, well, Mexico is not sending their best people and kind of said, we'll never do business with him again.

Did you ask Trump? I think you did. Right? About that and whether he believes the door was actually shut.

Speaker one
I did ask him about that. He thinks, he says that the one lesson that he learned from working in the industry is that regardless of what you say or what you do, as long as you have ratings, you will be hired. Now, I don't know if that's necessarily true, but that is his impression.

His memory was cloudy in terms of getting the call because I asked him specifically about what it was like that day when he received the call from NBC saying they were completely cutting ties, they wouldn't air his pageants, they would never have him back on the apprentice, and he couldn't remember that day or that memory. But he thinks in his head, he thinks that if he wanted to go back and do something, there would be many offers. And, but more importantly than that, I think he's also very hurt by NBC. He feels like NBC, again, this, I don't know if this is logic that's true, but he feels that NBC covers him or it's not logic that's true, but he feels NBC covers him toughly because they're upset that the apprentice, he didn't stay on the apprentice. So he thinks that NBC thinks that Donald Trump betrayed NBC by leaving the show and now has a personal vendetta against them, and that's why they don't cover him favorably as a politician or as president.

Megyn Kelly
Wow. No, I don't think that's that. Having worked inside the building, it's genuinely ideological. It's not the apprentice snub. That's my take on it. Okay.

Speaker one
It's also a completely different division, the music division and the entertainment division. It's not like the journalists in the building are going to be covering Jerry Seinfeld differently because Seinfeld once aired on NBC. It doesn't add up, but in his mind, he equates the two.

Megyn Kelly
Well, I mean, there's some logic there because it's like, had he continued doing the apprentice, he would not have run for president and they would have liked that much better, I think. But, you know, it, that's not how it went. So you get into whether he thinks he would have won and whether he would have won the presidency without the apprentice. What do you think? What did he say?

Speaker one
So he that answered changed slightly because we brought it up. It came up almost in every conversation. So initially, he said, he told me that Mark Burnett and a lot of people around him said that there's no way he would have been president without the apprentice. He still thinks he would have been president, but in one of our later conversations, he actually revealed something he's never said before, in that if he had not been on the apprentice, he probably or may not have run for the presidency and he may not have entered politics. So clearly, he is aware of the connection, he acknowledges the connection. And I think everyone in his orbit believes that because of the show, he became president, and without the show, he probably wouldn't have been president of the United States of America.

Megyn Kelly
Well, it's funny, because now his detractors, including some who may have worked on the show, blame themselves. Right? Like, we participated in his rise to fame and power, and we atone for the sin. And one of those people may or may not. I haven't heard him speak to this exactly, but is this number three guy on the show who's making the rounds right now? He has a book out. His name is Bill Pruitt, and he is a former producer of the Apprentice who's got a book out, and he's saying that he heard Trump use the n word on the set of the Apprentice. Trump has denied this vehemently, but this man claims there was a tape of it, but that also has been claimed for years. It's never been produced. Did you talk to Trump at all about this? I mean, renewed news?

Speaker one
We did. It was actually something that he brought up on his own again, when Trump starts telling stories, like, I was wondering how I'm going to bring it up, and then he just started to talk about it.

Trump says that if the tape had existed, it would have come out by now.

He claims that he was not mic'd. He did not use that word. He said if he, then he hypothetically said if he were to use that word, he would not use it when it was Mike, but then, once again, denied the entire thing. Mark Burnett also claims that there is no tape that exists. I think that if the tape existed, it probably would have come out by now. But Bill Pruitt has. He was after the access Hollywood tape. Bill Pruitt tweeted that the tape exists. And that is when I think there were a lot of theories about whether, where it existed. A lot of journalists looked into the existence of the tape and tried to find the tape.

There were speculation that there's some bunker somewhere where they're holding all the footage and keeping it from journalists. Trump denied that and said that that doesn't exist. Mark Burnett also denied that and said that doesn't exist.

But in the new version of the story, I think that Bill Prut's saying he's now, I don't know if it was specific that Trump was Mike. This was now a recollection of being in a conversation with him. So there are different recollections of what exactly was said and what happened. But as far as my investigation went and my questioning went, I was not able to find a tape or produce a tape, as many other journalists haven't either.

Megyn Kelly
It's not going to happen. Ramin, what a good idea. What a fascinating bunch of insights into the most famous man in the world. The book is called Apprentice in Wonderland. You can pre order it now by Ramin Satuta. All the best to you.

Speaker one
Thank you so much, Megan. This has been great talking to you.

Megyn Kelly
Likewise. Ok, we're going to be back with a closing d day message. I'm Megyn Kelly, host of the Megyn Kelly show on SiriusXM. It's your home for open, honest and provocative conversations with the most interesting and important political, legal and cultural figures. Today you can catch the Megyn Kelly show on Triumph, a SiriusXM channel featuring lots of hosts you may know and probably love great people like Doctor Louis, Laura Glenn Beck, Nancy Grace, Dave Ramsey, and yours truly, Megyn Kelly. You can stream the Megyn Kelly show on SiriusXM at home or anywhere you are. No car required. I do it all the time. I love the Sirius XM app. It has ad free music coverage of every major sport, comedy, talk, podcast and more. Subscribe now. Get your first three months for free.

Hogan Gidley
Go to siriusxm.com to subscribe and get three months free. That's siriusxm.com mkshow and get three months free offer details apply.

Megyn Kelly
Finally today, under the beautiful blue skies of France, a remembrance of the heroes who quite literally saved the world 80 years ago. This very well may be the last major D day ceremony attended by those who actually stormed the beaches of Normandy. About 150 american service members managed to make the journey to France today. Sadly, one of them died en route. It's a stark reminder that less than 1% of the more than 16 million Americans who served during world War two are still with us.

Once there, they received the hero's welcome that they so richly deserve. But if you've ever spoken to a veteran of world War two, they never want to be called hero. And yet, heroes they were. Absolutely.

French President Emmanuel Macron honored eleven Americans with the Legion of Honor, France's highest civilian and military award, each veteran standing, some needing some assistance as Mister McCrone pinned it on them and on behalf of a grateful nation and embraced them. Time may have slowed down. These veterans, their bodies may be failing a bit, but the pride in their eyes was something to behold. These are the guys that did it.

One of the most poignant moments coming when a young service member read the watch. It's a poem that's traditionally recited when a naval officer retires 80 years ago.

They stood the watch so that we.

David Pakman
Our families and our fellow countrymen and women can sleep soundly in safety each.

Megyn Kelly
And every night knowing that these veterans stood the watch.

Today we are here to say, world War two veterans, the watch stands relieved, relieved by those you have trained, guided.

Speaker one
Led.

Megyn Kelly
American world War two veterans.

You stand relieved.

We have the watch so teared up. I love those moments.

God bless our servicemen and women, the guys in uniform, the guys who liberated the world.

Such a great reminder of the best America has to offer and the responsibility we all share in securing our nation's future.

Unfortunately, this being political season, not everyone took the high road.

Take a look at this tweet from Hillary Clinton.

80 years ago today, thousands of brave Americans fought to protect democracy on the shores of Normandy this November. All we have to do is vote. She can't let it go, even on a day like this. Well, to her, because for the rest of us, our minds and our hearts are in the right place. Let us always remember and honor the sacrifices of our men and women in uniform, their families, and take the watch ever to heart. Wow, what a day. Hug your kids. Make sure they know what D Day is all about, what their forefathers have done not so long ago, just a lifetime ago, and that some of these heroes still roam this earth and need a prayer or a thought. And certainly all of our everlasting gratitude. Thanks to all of you for being here with us today. See it again tomorrow.

Thanks for listening to the Megyn Kelly show. No b's, no agenda, and no fear.