Best of the Week: Harris Picks Radical Walz, Males Dominate Women's Boxing, Inside the Supreme Court

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Megyn Kelly
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Welcome to the Megyn Kelly SHow, live on SiriusXM Channel 111 every weekday at noon east hey, everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show and Today's Weekend best of special. Another busy week in the world of politics. Oh, gosh, it's never ending, right? But it's kind of cool and interesting. But cringey. There's so much as the Democrats made their vice presidential selection and we were sold a bunch of nonsense, it was a bit of a surprise. And when the news broke that Kamala Harris had picked Minnesota governor Tim Walls, we brought on rich Lowry and Bhatia Ungar Sargent for instant analysis about this guy's truly radical policies. Oh, he's just folksy, we're told. Cool dad, I guess, with her wine. Mom or aunt? Sure. Okay. But it was more serious than that. And this week we also had on the veteran who replaced Tim Walz in what should have been Waltz's 2005 combat deployment to Iraq, but wasn't because Waltz quit on the National Guard knowing that they were getting deployed. He was the commander. It was his unit. He sent them off with a sia.

This guy told me his name is Tom Behrens. Why Tim Walts? And his view is a traitor and deserter.

I also talked to Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuch to give some behind the scenes details about the life and work going on at the Supreme Court and why we have too many laws in America. We got into some really interesting ones. And just the way our government harasses us all. How did we let it get like this? Neil Gorsuch has answers. And I asked him about that moment that Trump was almost assassinated. Trump's the one who appointed him. It was an interesting exchange. Plus, I set the record straight about the men competing in women's boxing in the Olympics. You are all being gaslit. Yes, these are two males, and it's outrageous. Thanks for watching. See you Monday.

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Megyn Kelly
You know, bhati, I'm thinking about the imagery, right? You've got former Marine and he did deploy young guy, you know, semper fee, you heard the whole thing. And on the other hand, you have Tim Walts, who did serve for 20 years as national guardsman, but has this significant black mark at the end of it and who's, you know, effectively running to be stand in for commander in chief. And as we're seeing right now in real time, being in the vp role actually can foist you into that role, whether officially or unofficially, sooner than expected.

Meanwhile, and the reason I think it's interesting, in addition, is because I mentioned in the intro, Tim Waltz changed the Minnesota flag to look almost exactly like the somali flag. I mean, it's a dead ringer for the flag of Somalia. It's got the highest population of Somalis than any other state in America. And you look at Kamala Harris's website, we noticed this the other day.

Good luck finding an american flag on there. Good luck finding one policy, one nothing. You know what it is? It's LGBTQ pride merch.

That's what's on her website. You go to the Trump website, it's covered in american flags. His motto is Make America great again. It's his campaign slogan. He's got his former marine out there. They talk about America and their love of country at every turn. And so I do see this dividing pretty quickly into the pair that loves America and what it stands for and the pair that doesn't.

Batya Ungar-Sargon
Yeah. On the policy front, it really is amazing. Of course, which policies should she put on her website? The ones that she held a year ago or five years ago or 20 years ago or five minutes ago. Right. She's such a flip flopper that it would be very hard to pin her down. The split screen is very, very significant. Here you have Kamala Harris reportedly choosing the less charismatic, less of challenging of the potential mates. Whereas Donald Trump went for a man who is clearly going to be the standard bearer for the future of the MAGA movement. You have the Harris agenda, which amounts to basically a yossification campaign, right, a yas queening right to the top with no actual policy. And then you have Donald Trump's record on the economic front that really made working class Americans feel like they had a shot at the american dream. Again, you have the Democrats caving to the elites in their party. You know, President Obama, George Clooney, Nancy Pelosi, effectively choosing the next president on their ticket as opposed to the voters. And then you have Donald Trump again and again sidelining the elites in his party, whether it's project 2025 or whether it's the donor class who picked Nikki Haley. Right. They are really two visions for the future of America at stake here. One of them says, I'm going to be a perfect reflection of my voter base. I'm going to represent the multiethnic, multiracial working class. And they're shot at the american dream. And the other side says, no, I'm going to reflect no policy.

I'm simply going to be a reflection of, you know, elite energy. Right. Elite vibes discourse. Right, exactly. Elite vibes. The vibes that the elites want to see out there and hope to trick the american people into going along with it.

Mark Adams
It.

Megyn Kelly
But, you know, this selection, rich in a way, telegraphs exactly which Kamala Harris we're dealing with. Is she the 19 one who proposed getting rid of private health insurance and who wanted to ban fracking and all the things open the border? All of it. Is that her, or is she this new moderate, as the campaign written statements have suggested, that she's reversed herself on all of that. We have yet to hear from her at all.

This election tells us everything we need to know. This guy waltz, oh, he just went through the list. Okay, first of all, Minnesota schools have dropped from 7th in the nation to 19th under his gubernatorial reign. Um, he wants driver's licenses for all illegals. He wants free tuition for all illegals. He wants free health care, has provided. Not just wants, has provided free health care for all illegals. And as I said in the intro, free is not free. Uh, he wants to make Minnesota a sanctuary state. It's not yet, but he's on record saying, yes, I would like that. That makes sense to me.

He has supported the Biden Harris economic agenda. And here's the capper.

He's as radical as we can get on the trans and children issue. He is Gavin Newsom with white hair. That's who Tim Waltz is. He signed an executive order that says the state can take your child away from you, away from you if you don't, quote, affirm their gender identity, meaning they say they're a girl when they're really a boy and make sure they can get access to puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgeries, chopping off their healthy body parts. If your 13 or 14 year old comes home and says, I want to be castrated and you say, no, Tim Waltz wants the state to take your kid away from you, that's as radical as we have anywhere in the world on this issue. Rich.

Rich Lowry
Yeah, just shocking. And to the 2019 point, Tim Waltz would have been totally comfortable in that primary, right? He wouldn't have had to change any positions he has now. Kamala became more or less and that now she's telling she isn't anymore. Waltz is still with all those 2019 positions. And ultimately, you know, it's Kamala's positions that matter more. The case you can make against her is that this reflects her values, this reflects where she really is. And the idea that the state is going to be weaponized against parents who want their disturbed or ill children who have gender dysphoria to be treated in a rational way, where you try to wait it out and hope it's a phase that passes rather than introducing these radical measures that, you know, western Europe, UK are now rejecting because there's no science behind them whatsoever and we still have it in America and in the heartland. That's stunning. It'll be part of the case against them. And JD Vance was already making it this afternoon.

Megyn Kelly
But look, Bhatia, at how the media is already rolling out the red carpet for this guy. We're get used to this because we're going to have three more months just like it. Take a look at sat nine.

Waltz appears to fit the all american definition of a man from middle America, high school teacher, teacher, football coach, member of the Army National Guard before becoming a member of Congress and now governor. Exactly.

Batya Ungar-Sargon
He really has that perfect backstory. He's the one, George, remember, who labeled JD Vance and his republican allies as.

Megyn Kelly
Quote, weird, which gained a lot of.

Batya Ungar-Sargon
Steam with the Harris campaign.

Megyn Kelly
He has this folksy, personal, informal vibe.

Batya Ungar-Sargon
That has really appealed to a lot of Democrats. And they believe that his rural backstory.

Megyn Kelly
The fact that he was a former.

Batya Ungar-Sargon
Member of the NRA, as you say, he is this high school, former high.

Megyn Kelly
School teacher, he was a football coach, that this can help appeal to those independent swing state voters, independent swing state voters budget. They're going to love him because he's folksy and was once a member of the NRA. And then they're going to say, here, have my child start chopping.

Batya Ungar-Sargon
The media thinks that because they don't care about policy, because they are rich and elites and don't have to worry about pocketbook issues or issues like, you know, what's going on with their kids in public schools because their kids are on private school.

Megyn Kelly
Right.

Batya Ungar-Sargon
Therefore, the only thing that matters is vibes.

Megyn Kelly
Right.

Batya Ungar-Sargon
Therefore the only thing that matters is does somebody give off a folksy vibe? Right. What is their backstory? Same thing with Kamala Harris. They don't care what she represents. They only care what she looks, looks like. Right. They only care about the story because they are not facing the kinds of struggles that average Americans are struggling with every single day. Now, walls did do some things that are, you know, pretty good for working class Americans. You know, he established a standard for nursing homes. Very important. He banned non compete clauses. Very important for working class Americans. And he also required a certain level of transparency in warehousing, which is really important for Amazon workers. This is all stuff that really matters. Matters and stuff that, you know, republicans really need to be paying attention to because that is the only threat that he actually represents. And honestly, it's clear that that is not what they are putting, that is not the basket they're putting their eggs in.

Megyn Kelly
Right.

Batya Ungar-Sargon
He's not being trotted out as somebody who's good for workers. He's not being trotted out at someone who can restore the american dream for the struggling working class. He's being trotted out as someone who can support, you know, the Yas queen effication of Kamala Harris. And on that front, obviously, that split screen we've been talking about, I mean, how could he possibly compare to someone like JD Vance? One of the only people in the elites who cares about the forgotten american.

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Megyn Kelly
Let's go back to you. It's 2005. Instead of going with the unit and being the command sergeant major in Iraq, he quits.

And what happens next to you and the other guys you're serving with?

Tom Behrens
Well, in the fall of zero four. Just stepping back a little bit. When the selection process was done, I was selected to, to a position in Devarty, which is division artillery, which is.

He was selected into the, one of the 125 field artillery battalion, which I was a member. We were both first sergeants together. So, you know, I went one way. I went to Devarti, to division. He stayed in the 125. And then when the warning order came out, the 125 ended up being part of the first brigade. So they were the ones that were actor notified that they were going to war. And I was at division and division wasn't notified. So I was kind of like, well, it must not be my time. You know, I'm in division. I'm, I'm here. I'm just going to keep working and, you know, division gets activated, I'll go. But that's, that's what happened with that at that point. So I really. I wasn't in the 125 at that .1 of the 125 field artillery. And he was. So when, when zero five rolled around, he got notified. I mean, they all knew what was going to happen. I mean, it was right on the documents. It was going to be Iraq. The warning order was out there from March until May, and then may roll around.

And the rumor came out across the state that he had, he had quit, turned his stuff in and slithered down the steps out of the armory and had quit and retired.

And everybody was in shock because senior NCO's don't do that. I mean, that you basically train for years and years. You're with your soldiers. Your soldiers are literally like your kids almost. I mean, you, you've watched them grow up. You helped them shoot guns and learn how to do the radio stuff and, you know, fix wounds, if you can and different things. And then all of a sudden when it's time to go, go do your thing with that, you quit. I mean, that just absolutely was just, it was just disgusting. It was.

People were like, well, what is he, a coward? Whatever. Nobody knew what the answer was. And then I pretty much knew, well, I'm all afraid you have to get the call because I'm a 13 bravo artillery guy. And, you know, and then I got the call about not quite a month later, I mean, it was a few weeks. And then they, you know, they, my colonel called and, you know, it was just weird. I was out in one of my farm fields and I was talking to him and he's like, well, you know, we're asking you to go. And then there was a horseshoe laid on the ground. And I always call it my lucky horseshoe. But other people said, how can you say that's lucky? You went to war. And I was like, well, I got to serve my country in a greater capacity, and I got to help protect my soldiers and do whatever I could to make the deployment as.

As good as it could be, because it was, like you said, it was a tough time in the country then.

Megyn Kelly
So you went. And how long was the unit deployed for?

Tom Behrens
We were gone all the way until July of 2007. So when we started in, it was 22 months total. We had a six month train up at Camp Shelby, Mississippi. And then we ended up. We're supposed to be a year in country.

It was supposed to be an 18 month deployment. But then all the sectarian violence started in, you know, in zero six, late zero six, and in January of seven, and we got extended to help out. We were involved in the surge, basically, but we were already in country, so they just kept us in place and moved more soldiers in to try to quell the violence.

Megyn Kelly
Can you. Can you just give us a feel for how rough that time was? I remember covering it as a reporter in 2006 was when the beheadings started. It just started to get very, very dark, even darker than you'd expect for war.

You were there. So were the men who had served under him. He was supposed to be there, according to these documents.

What was it like for you guys?

Tom Behrens
Well, I. When I got home, I kind of looked at. At some of our ground squirrels running around, and, you know, they're always on the alert. They're looking for a hawk to fly down or a badger to dig them out of a hole. I mean, you're all. You always think you're gonna die when it boils down.

I mean, I didn't. We didn't even. We didn't know, really, that we were ever gonna get out of there until we got on the last Chinook to fly out. And even then, there was stuff lying in the air at us, chasing us out of country almost. I mean, it was really a trying time. And, you know, it was. It was.

They. They are a thinking enemy. I mean, Iran was behind all of the crap that was shot of us. I mean, it was from the explosive form projectiles to the mortars to the Katusha rockets to the training of the people that went across the border and then came back and then used all those tactics, techniques, and procedures against us. I mean, they literally were the, you know, the people behind the scenes in our area. We were Shiite, so they were the, they were the, you know, the people killing us were the proxies of Iran. And when Donald Trump got rid of salami or whatever his name was, he was the architect of all the people in my area that died. I mean, he was the, he has 3000 people on his head, I think. But, yeah, it was a, it was a, it was a rough time. We, we did what we could and kept everybody safe as much as we could. We, we drug out some old 120 millimeter mortars and shot them back at them and, you know, kind of got them.

They didn't like getting shot, I'll tell you that.

That kind of put them on their toes.

Megyn Kelly
But. Well, bet I know that you wrote in October of 18 on Facebook, you've been trying to raise this issue. I should point out you've been trying to raise this issue since he first ran for Congress. Once he ran for governor, you tried to tell the media in Minnesota, you need to know the truth about him, that he left us, he quit, and almost nobody picked up the story. The papers that you sent your letter to wound up endorsing him like the Star Tribune and ignoring you.

And so this is the first time you're really getting, I think, a national audience to say what you say is the truth about Governor Walsh. And Alpha News confirms you posted something in 2018 when he ran for governor, along with two others.

With another, another retired army command sergeant major who is named Paul her.

And before posting the letter, you wrote a message on why you wanted to bring this story out. It reads in part, as follows, on 911.

As I lowered the flags to half staff at the Brewster Veterans Memorial, I gazed at the bronze likeness of Sergeant Kyle Miller, who was killed in action in Iraq on June 29, 2006, at age 19 while serving in the 125th Field Artillery Battalion. I wondered what that patriot thought that day in 2001, a teenager in school. And I wondered what all the other patriots who had joined the service after 911 thought on that day when they joined. We were at war, which we still are, and getting the call to go is probably going to happen.

What if everybody said, sorry, I've got better things to do.

We are the land of the free because of the brave. We are not the land of the free because of those who ran.

The citizens of the state of Minnesota deserve to hear this side of the story, not just a slithery politician's version of what he wants people to hear.

Do you feel, Tom, that he cut and ran, that he abandoned the unit?

Tom Behrens
Absolutely. I look back on what took place then. I mean, it wasn't like, oh, I just happened to get out. And then a week later, the paper came out and the warning order came out, and I just happened to time it just right. And I knew that was going to happen. I mean, the, the pa, the warning order was already out. Everybody knew they were going. And I don't know if he's never responded why to anybody, really, except that, well, I had to quit to run for Congress, which is a lie, like a lot of the other ones. A lot of the lies he can't tell.

But he basically said that. But, you know, I don't know if he was a coward when he originally did it or if he felt, well, I'm in over my head. If I go there, I'm gonna get people killed, or I'm, you know, maybe deep down he felt, I'm incompetent. You know, I mean, you can't talk your way out of somebody shooting at you in, in a scenario like that. And, you know, he's very good at talking and, and, you know, doing that. I mean, I got to give him credit there. He loves hearing himself talk, but I don't know, you know, and on the end of it, I think the reason he quit was political because it was, you know, back then, one side was kind of, it was George Bush's war and it was an unjust war, and why were we there? And all this stuff, you know, when it was like. And I think. I think the bottom line is maybe it's all of the above. Maybe there is some cowardice in there, too.

But, you know, that was the thing. It was like we were there, and I was at a huge bunker complex where there was bunkers that were blown, all the pieces, but then there were some that were locked yet. And I told the EOD explosive ordinance disposal guy, I said, well, maybe there's weapons of mass destruction in there. And he said, well, I ain't open up. He said, I got enough work to do cleaning all these rounds that are laying all over the desert out. And it was like, well, where's the media when it comes to this? I mean, they didn't show any of that, but any. There was all kinds of possibilities that there was more there than anybody said. But, you know, everything got skewed then. And, you know, it was just, it was like an unjust thing. And I think that's the bottom line. But, yeah, he, he literally, you know, when I, when I looked into, you know, the Star Tribune reporter I talked to way back when, he actually said, well, isn't that treason? And I said, well, treason is probably one level over and above what he did. I said, because that's selling your country out to another nation. You know, if you're a double agent spy or something, I mean, that. That's one thing, you know, he is a traitor, because a traitor is basically a person who betrays a country. And that is what he did. And then I, you know, I got thinking about it about, like this, that bird doll guy that just walked away from his unit in Afghanistan, and it was like, you know, that literally is what Tim Walls did.

He is a deserter, too. You know what it is? It's a different version of it. But a soldier who leaves or runs away from service or duty with the intention of never returning, that is exactly what he did. He had no intention of ever coming back in the guard or filling, filling out one more day in combat.

When he pulled the plug and was gone, he basically said, tough crap, United States. I'm getting the heck out of here. And, yeah, that's. I'm not ashamed to call him a traitor or deserve.

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Megyn Kelly
We have got to get what's happened to what's happening over in Paris with the Olympics and this boxer. I don't know about you, but I was flabbergasted at the amount of gaslighting going on in the media and by the IOC about the true sex of these two boxers who are competing in women's boxing. They're male.

You trust me. I believe you trust me. You wouldn't be listening to this show. They're male. They have xy chromosomes. They have testes. That's male, period.

The IOC doesn't deny it, and we'll get to exactly how they're trying to thread the needle, but that's what you need to know, these are men competing as women.

They're not trans. From what we understand. They suffer what's called dsds, and that's a different thing, which we'll get into. But I'm going to walk you through it, okay? I'm going to give you the facts you need to know. But a little bit of background for you first.

The IOC has been aware of this problem in women's boxing for years, and it's done nothing because its number one goal is, quote, inclusion. And it's made that clear. It's woke. It doesn't care about women's safety or women's fairness. It just cares about making the trans or the dsds feel welcome and safety of women be damned. But this particular case has escalated the mat, escalated the matter because it's now in combat sports. Leah Thomas was bad enough that was swimming, but he was in his own lane.

Now we're actually endangering women.

This has been banned in sports like rugby because that's another combat sport.

And the, the entity that controls boxing for women, the International Boxing Federation, has also said this is a no go and disqualified these two athletes before, and they notified the IOC that these are males, and the IOC ignored it. Its only response has been to attack the boxing federation and to say, you know, hands over the ears. It's not true. We're just not going to listen. They have female written on their passports. It's insane what they're doing. Let me kick it off with what we heard from Mark Adams, who's the IOC comms director, last week when this controversy first erupted with the boxer from Nigeria, there's another one from Taiwan. Take a listen to him. Sat 21.

Mark Adams
They are women in their passports. And it's stated that that is the case, that they are female.

They're competing in the women's category. Again, I don't want to mention their names or whatever, but these athletes have.

Tom Behrens
Competed many times before for many years.

Megyn Kelly
Okay, so they're female because he says they're female. By the way, Algeria, not Nigeria. And they've competed as females for many years. He skips over the part where they were disqualified from worlds in 2023 for being men.

Okay? So basically they got away with it for a number of years, therefore they are female. That doesn't hold up. It got to the point where the organization that oversees women's boxing, the International Boxing association, felt the need to come out publicly and say, the IOC is misleading you. And this just happened over the weekend. And they explained this past weekend that this thing started in Turkey in May of 2022, when they were in competition. Tests were taken, and they said the results were inconsistent with femaleness.

Next thing they knew, they had championships in 2023 in New Delhi, India. The world championships come in New Delhi, India. Female world championships. There were 324 boxers from 64 nations. It was a ten day competition. And Taiwan's Lin Yoting and Algeria's Amin Khalif were two of those 324 boxers. Now, they and others, this is not that uncommon. It's not common, but it's not unheard of for people participating in this sport and others like it, to be concealing that they suffer from what are called dsds. Suspected differences of sexual development. Differences of sexual development. We used to use the term hermaphrodite, then they changed it to intersex. Now they go by dsds. And what it means in this case is you're someone who's a male. You have xy chromosomes and testes, but you don't have descended testes, and sometimes you don't have a penis.

But then when you hit puberty, something might start growing.

But there's no doubt that in the vast majority of these cases, the guy knows he's a guy, at least by the time he hits puberty. And certainly these two know because they had an xy chromosome test done repeatedly, including a blood test, according to the officials in that world championships, that told them they're men. They know they, according to the experts, would not have any female interior, you know, internal organs. No uterus, no ovaries, no fallopian tubes. There'd be no period, no breast would grow. And that's consistent with what our eyes show us when we see these two compete. But they do have male testes that usually are undescended. So when they are born, they may look female in the genitalia, and therefore, many of them are raised as girls in the beginning by well meaning families who don't understand what they have here.

And then it becomes apparent later on as they continue to look more and more like boys. And then they hit puberty. And often the testes do descend, and something approaching a penis could start growing. And all of that deserves empathy and understanding and kindness and non bullying, and I think we're all there.

However, it gets a lot trickier when they enter female sports, especially combat sports, and then remain in them after they know, because this is not a question of elevated testosterone. They have perfectly normal testosterone for men.

For men, they haven't done anything to manipulate their testosterone. It's not a matter of doping. You know, in a way, it's a matter of biology.

And this would be the same thing as an olympian going and competing in the Paralympics. That's not allowed. They have able bodies and you can't compete against people who don't have those same physical advantages. It would be unfair. We would recognize it clearly in that context. We choose not to hear because the IOC is woke.

Let me go back to the facts.

They were asked to take these further blood tests. They did. They demonstrated chromosomes. This is from the IBA International Boxing association presser that we refer to as ineligible results.

That was further ratified and they were removed. He said, we've got a document that was sent to both boxers, refers to the blood test. We're not able to give the actual blood test results here due to medical privacy. But both boxers signed our letter to show receipt. They had seen the XY. Both had the opportunity to appeal.

The taiwanese fighter chose not to appeal.

But Iman Khalif did appeal.

And he said, we had further discussions with Amon and we paid for most of that appeal. But Iman dropped it and therefore it was never actually adjudicated. Now I ask you, if you were an actual female, why would you drop your appeal?

You were deprived of boxing in the gold medal round. You had made it through all the other rounds. You're about to fight for gold and they dq you for being male, and you drop the appeal. Why?

Why isn't that in all the reporting wired? You've been absolutely disgusting. You're a tech magazine, for the love of God. Stick to writing about computers because you don't know shit about fairness in sport.

The IBA then sent a letter to the International Olympic Committee on June 5, 2023, informing them of the test results. Summary abnormality interpretation chromosomal analysis reveals male karyotype, which means chromosome.

Male chromosomes have been found.

What happens with the IOC?

They come out and double down. They don't care. They couldn't care less that the boxing federation is saying they're men. We tested, it's a blood test. And we told the IOC, here is the IOC again trying to gaslight us. Thomas Bach, the worst. He's the president of the IOC on Saturday.

Tom Behrens
Let's be very clear here. We are talking about women's boxing, and we have two boxers who are born as women, who have been raised as a woman, who have a passport as a woman, and who have competed for many years as women.

And this is the clear definition of a woman.

There was never any doubt about them being a woman and how can somebody being born, raised, competed, and having a passport as a woman cannot be considered a woman?

Megyn Kelly
That man sitting there knows that they tested positive via blood test for xy chromosomes.

He's a liar. He's got an agenda.

Moreover, the IOC at that presser came out, the same guy and said, I repeat, this is not a DSD case. It's not a DSD case. Okay, so he's trying to say, no, they're not intersex, et cetera. This is about a woman taking part in a woman's competition. And I think I've explained this many times. Guess what happened after the presser? The IOC had to issue a paper correction.

The correction reads as follows.

He said, I repeat here, this is not a DSd case. What was intended was, I repeat here, this is not a transgender case.

That's it right there. That's the admission. It's a DSD case, which we know because they have xy chromosomes. They are men. It's not about elevated testosterone, it's about them being actual men. Xy chromosomes, which you cannot get around.

The doctor for the IOC, who's on the board of it, it's not the IOC, the international Boxing Federation doctor Iannis Filippatos came out and said it explicitly. Listen to this. I try to say that the medical result, medical result, blood result, looks and say the laboratories, that this boxer is male.

So he gave it up, even though the first guy who spoke for the IBF was like, oh, he can't be specific because of privacy. Then on comes the doctor, who's a board member for the boxing federation and says, they're men.

You've got not for nothing but a guy named Alan Abramson, award winning sports writer, prior sports columnist for NBC News, saying he's seen the test himself. And the letter, which the IBA concluded showed the boxers were male and said, it shows that Amand Khalif has the DNA, which is that of a male consisting of xy chromosomes. The lab results for each athlete to pick the xy chromosomes photographically.

And on and on it goes. The proof is overwhelming. And the IOC was told there is no way around this. I am sorry that these two got all the way to the metal rounds. Now they're both guaranteed to medal because they've been beating women over and over, and they did so well that they're going to win. I'm sorry that they were allowed to do that and were falsely led to believe it would be okay. It's not okay.

It's not okay.

The one woman who was defeated by one of these over the weekend. You saw her hold up the xx with the fingers, xx trying to say I'm a woman. This is a woman's competition and that's how it must remain if we are going to protect the safety of american women and all the other women who have to go into this already dangerous sport. This is not one of the risks they assume. Look at her. Right on. But you know what really needs to be done. I'm sorry. Don't box the italian woman who's defeated by a main Khalif last weekend. She wound up issuing an apology. Charlie Kirk predicted it, an apology for speaking out against him. If the IOC let him play, I guess it's fair. Well, no, it's not fair and I'm sorry. I guess these women have to worry about blowback to themselves. But they should also be worrying about the women who come up behind them because they too are in danger and someone's going to get killed.

The boxing federation and the boxing officials who've been polled, one of the, one of the old female world champions, former said Emain Khalifa's not, not even a very good boxer. He's winning because he's male, and female pronouns are inappropriate in this context. The co founder of the Independent Council on Women's Sports condemned the IOC. The COVID up and championing of male athletes in women's Olympic sports is the greatest sports scandal of our lifetime. Heads must roll within the IOC to account for this unthinkable justice against women.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I'm Megyn Kelly, host of the Megyn Kelly show on Sirius XM. It's your home for open, honest and provocative conversations with the most interesting and important political, legal and cultural figures. Today you can catch the Meganehen Kelly show on Triumph, a Sirius XM channel featuring lots of hosts you may know and probably love. Great people like doctor Laura, Glenn Beck, Nancy Grace, Dave Ramsey and yours truly, Megyn Kelly. You can stream the Megyn Kelly show on SiriusXM at home or anywhere you are. No car required. I do it all the time. I love the Sirius XM app. It has ad free music, cars of every major sport, comedy, talk, podcast and more. Subscribe now. Get your first three months for free.

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Megyn Kelly
Do you guys ever hit news of the day with each other? Is it chummy in that way?

Mark Adams
Megan, you're not going to be surprised that you're not going to get me to talk about politics during a presidential election year.

We often eat lunch together. It's true.

It's the government. So bring your own lunch.

And sure, we'll talk about everything from baseball to politics to when Justice Breyer is around some pretty bad knock knock jokes that he gets from his grandkids.

Megyn Kelly
Is it like when we all go home for Thanksgiving and we have leftists and rightists and conservatives, Republicans, everybody, liberals, you know, debating these kinds of things over the potato salad, or is it, I would imagine it's a little bit more elevated than that of, well, it's.

Mark Adams
Certainly like a family.

You know, there are nine people, we work together for long periods of time. We do easy things and we do hard things together. And it's a, I always think it'd be nice if the american people could take a peek at our discussions in the conference room. Now I'm glad they don't because it gives us an opportunity to speak candidly with one another and work through difficult problems. But I think they'd be very proud of the level of discourse and the thoughtfulness that goes around that conference table.

We have a rule, we speak in seniority, and everybody goes around the table and says their piece before any further discussion. And then it's just a conversation back and forth. And it's amazing how often that conversation yields something that we can all agree on and that becomes our starting place for our work.

Megyn Kelly
Is it true that you all shake hands with all of the other justices every time you see each other?

Mark Adams
That's one 50 year old tradition, Megan. And yes, we do.

And I think that's a wonderful icebreaker for us and for all people.

No matter how difficult the matter of the day is, no matter what disagreements we might have had yesterday, we're always greeting one another with a warm welcome and a question about their family or what they've been up to over the summer. And yes, it's a great tradition.

Megyn Kelly
That's really nice. I think about it sometimes in church where it's time to say peace and make peace with your neighbors. And I appreciate the return of the handshake like human touch in congregation with your neighbors, even strangers to you, but with whom you have a common belief there's something to it. And you hit on this in the book, like that tradition of going to church, some of the themes of bowling alone.

That's really kind of interestingly part of the problem in the knee jerk over regulation of everything.

Mark Adams
Well, now, Megan, I'm a lawyer, so I like laws. And I think they're very important to our freedoms, right? Without them, we can't be safe.

We don't know what our responsibilities and our rights are without laws. But James Madison a long time ago asked the question, all right, some law is essential. But is there an irony in law? And can there be too much law in ways that actually hurt our freedoms and our aspirations for equality and our rights?

And just as a judge now for about 18 years, I've just seen so many cases in which decent, hardworking Americans just trying to make their way, just getting overrun by laws that they didn't know about. And I felt it was important to take a moment to just tell their stories.

I've reflected on it for a long time, and many of them were kind enough to share their stories with Janie, my co author and former law clerk, and me.

And the book really is about them and it's dedicated to them and it's their stories mostly.

Megyn Kelly
But it's incredible the way that you've chosen to approach it. And Janie obviously is brilliant because I'm sure she did the bulk of the research. And the stories are spectacular. The ones that you've chosen, just to put a little header on it for the audience, you pose the central question of the book as follows. What happens? This is my phrase to the little guy and their foundational freedoms, like the right to speak, the right to pray, the right to gather freely. When our laws increasingly restrict what we may say, they monitor what we do and tell us how we may live. You write in the book about how rich people, people with connections or popular people, they'll do okay. If you look at history, it's when the unpopular or unconnected, unwealthy guy or gal gets dragged into the courts that all of this regulation becomes a problem. And you feature front and foremost the story of Sandra and John Yates. I told my family the story. We're still talking about it. Even my kids were completely baffled by what happened to John Yates. Can you outline it for us quickly?

Tom Behrens
Sure.

Mark Adams
So John and Sandra Yates are high school sweethearts. They moved to Florida. He pursued his life's dream of becoming a commercial fisherman, worked his way up from Deckhand, captain of his own small crew, and he's out. One day, somebody comes alongside, flashes a badge, and says, I'd like to measure your fish. John says, well, we've been out for some time, and I've got thousands of pounds of red grouper in the hold. He says, fine, I got all day. And he sits there measuring the red grouper one by one, and he determines that there are 72 fish that are less than 20 inches long, a limit at the time. Now, John's not convinced this fellow knows how to measure red grouper because he doesn't account for their long, lower jaw like he should. But put that aside. 72 it is. The agent says, put those in a crate, and I'll deal with you when you get back to doc in a few days. John does that well. When he gets back, the agent measures them again and finds 69, now, not 72, that are undersized. And he's suspicious. But John doesn't hear anything more about it. For three years, when a group of agents surround his house, his wife's doing the laundry and arrest him, take him 2 hours away. He has no idea what this is about. And he's charged with a violation of the Sarbanes Oxley act, which was, as you know, adopted after the Enron accounting scandal.

And it's designed to prevent people from destroying documents when there's a federal investigation. But the law reads, you can't destroy things like accounting records and spreadsheets and other tangible objects.

And the government's Sarbanes Oxley theory is that John had thrown overboard 72 undersized Red grouper and replaced them with 69 still undersized Red grouper.

And John thought that was about the silliest thing he'd ever heard. But they pursued the case even after the size limit for Red Grouper was dropped to 18 inches and all of his fish, by anyone, everyone's estimation, were longer than that. They spent years pursuing him, secured a conviction. He spent 30 days in jail over Christmas when he and his wife were trying to raise two young grandchildren.

And he was ready to give up. He was done.

And Sandra said, no, we have to fight this for the next person so it doesn't happen to someone else again. She took it all the way to the United States Supreme Court and won by a single vote. Now, that kind of spirit I admire. But look at the costs that it came to that family. John was no longer able to pursue his lifestream as a commercial fisherman, put out of work. His wife now supports the family, and they live in a trailer. So that's the human toll of too much law. Right?

And, you know, it's something that's happened in my lifetime. Megan, I don't know about yours, but our laws have just simply exploded. The federal criminal code has more than doubled in my lifetime in length. There are so many federal crimes now in regulatory provisions that nobody can be sure because it would take years just to read them. There are at least 300,000. We know.

And everybody says Congress isn't busy. They write two to 3 million new words of statutory law every year. And the federal regulations, forget about Congress. That's just the tip of the iceberg. The Federal register used to be 16 pages long when it started in the 1930s. Now every year, we see 60 to 70,000 pages added annually.

Megyn Kelly
John's wife Sandra is really the heroine of the book.

I agree.

She brought this case, notwithstanding the enormous challenges to doing that when you don't have a lot of money. As you point out, it lasted eight years, three courts, 13 different judges.

And John was forced to do the time and pay the price, even though he was ultimately successful at the US Supreme Court.

You point out in the book, all of this is very contrary to the founder's vision of what America would be about. And you say that one of the essential purposes in our founding documents, as recognized by Justice William O. Douglas, was to take government off the backs of the people and to keep it off.

And somehow that's been turned on its head with the numbers that you just espoused. That by 100 years ago, all the federal government laws fit into a single volume. This is all from the book. Overruled. By 2018, us code was 54 volumes, 60,000 pages. There are 300,000 federal agency regulations, many of which have criminal penalties. And on and on, it's just spun out of control to where no one could ever understand what all the laws are out there and how many we violate in a day.

Mark Adams
Yeah, some people say. Some academics say that anyone over the age of 18 in this country could be charged with a federal felony. And that does raise a lot of questions in my mind. Right.

Our founders wanted for us written laws.

They wrote a constitution. That was a novel idea in human history at the time, and it was designed to divide and check and balance power and make lawmaking difficult. We forget that they saw law as restrictions on freedoms, and so they wanted lawmaking to be especially a difficult task. And that's why we have two houses of Congress, why you have to then get the president to sign it or override his veto. And we've kind of taken that process where we're supposed to have the wisdom of the masses, all the people involved, their representatives coming together, compromising, working through problems and passing laws that we can all maybe understand and agree on. We've outsourced a lot of that work to federal agencies where there are experts and they have very important contributions to make, but there aren't the kinds of checks and balances that Madison had in mind for us.

Megyn Kelly
Yeah, they're not elected, and as you point out in the book, overruled. They often not only will be the promulgators of these basically criminal statutes that we're going to have to abide by, but then they're the judge and jury, too. They will create the regulation. They'll charge us with violating it, and then I, they'll try the case, and surprise, surprise, they're not the most objective judge.

Mark Adams
Well, you know, when Janie and I sat down to work on the book, we wondered how many federal agencies there are, Megan. And it turns out federal agencies can't agree on how many federal agencies exist. There are at least three different published numbers of how many of them there are. And you're right, they, they write rules, very important work. They prosecute people for violations of those rules, and then in many cases, they serve as the judge for the case, too. Jonathan Turley, professor at George Washington, says that the average American is ten times more likely to be brought before one of these administrative judges. They used to be called hearing officers, but now they call themselves administrative judges.

Great than they are to be, than an American is likely to ever face a judge and a jury. And what's at stake there?

Why do we care about this? Why do we write about this in the book?

Well, when you're before a judge, you're before somebody who is pretty independent, who's been appointed and confirmed and been through that process, but after that, doesn't owe anything to anybody.

His only job or her job is to apply the law as faithfully and fairly as they can.

And you have a jury, a jury of your peers to decide your case before an agency. Your administrative judge or administrative law judge is likely to be somebody who works for the very same agency that's bringing the charges against you. You're not going to have a jury.

And many of the procedures that you'd get in court, including basic rights like cross examination, are not always given to you the way they would be in court. It's a very, very different system, and it's unsurprising as a result that agencies almost always win before their own judges in ways that they wouldn't win in court.

Megyn Kelly
That fierce independence of the judiciary is going to come back into this discussion as we get into some of the criticisms of the courts these days and the push to make them more accountable and whether that's also inconsistent with the founders vision.

You go through, you do an excellent job of outlining the problem in terms of the volume of law, the impossibility of understanding the laws, real men and women stories of how it's impossible to navigate the system and how people have gotten caught in this web. But I do want to tick through a couple of the passing references because they bring it home.

Justice Gorsuch goes through the six year old you may have heard of who landed in court for picking a tulip by the bus stop. Ten year old whose lemonade stand was shuttered for lack of a business license. We talked about those kids all the time when I was on Fox. It's a federal crime to enter a post office while intoxicated. There goes my Saturday night to sell a mattress without a warning label. I never knew that was real. We all rip those off of our mattresses thinking that's a joke to injure a government owned lamp in DC, and I mean, absurdly, to consult with a known pirate, which is right on point, who spends their time coming up with this stuff, never mind enforcing it.

Mark Adams
Well, that's the thing. I used to think those were like stray anecdotes, and then I started seeing them in my courtroom. When I was a 10th circuit judge, I had a case, I think it was a 7th grader, certainly a middle schooler, who was trading burps for laughs in his classroom. And I might have been guilty of that in the day. And instead of being just taken to the principal's office, or maybe his parents called or maybe detention, he was arrested and handcuffed and it went to court.

Now, I don't know what's happening in our society that leads to things like that. Another one, a small healthcare company in Kansas was accused of Medicare fraud. Big, big deal. That's the kind of thing that can put your company out of business.

And it went through six years of those kinds of administrative law proceedings we talked about a moment ago, got to my court and the three of us, we sit in panels of three on the courts of appeals. Usually we looked at each other and said, we think, gosh, I think they complied with all the rules that were in existence at the time. They provided their services and the government's accusing them of violating rules that it didn't even promulgate until years after they provided the services. Are we missing something?

And we got the government lawyer in front of us and heard argument, and it turned out the government had just become confused. It was producing so many rules so fast, it had no idea that it was accusing somebody for violating rules that didn't even exist at the time.

Megyn Kelly
The theme I see out of the book, again, overruled, is these government entities overreact to problematic behavior, minor problematic behavior, and they punish good or neutral behavior over and over and over.

There's so many examples in the book, but one of them that our audience may be familiar with is Hemingway's cats down at his estate, which some regulator deemed a problem. Everyone was perfectly happy. No one was suffering.

But then they were once the regulators stepped in.

Mark Adams
Yeah. So there's this law that said that if you're an animal exhibitor, like a zoo or a circus, you have to have a federal license for your animals. Fine.

Then the agency took that and kind of ran with it and said, basically, animal exhibitors include everybody from children's magician Marty Hahn. I talk about him in the book, too.

Megyn Kelly
That's a crazy story.

Mark Adams
That's a crazy story. But the Hemingway museum, turns out they needed a federal license. And somebody from the US Department of Agriculture went down there and said, okay, you have these cats. They're all descendants of Ernest Hemingway's original six toed cat that he got from a ship captain is good luck. And they've been taking care of him for years down there.

They even stayed during hurricanes to make sure the cats are okay. And they have a little cat cemetery with tombstones. I mean, these cats are loved and they're all named like Marilyn Monroe and Cary Grant. And anyway, this person from the Department of Agriculture says, you got a problem taking care of these cats because the wall isn't tall enough. So the cats kind of wander into town. People love them, but you know that you got to keep them in and so you got to put the wall higher. And the museum said, well, we'd love to, but there's another federal agency that says we're a historical site and we can't change the wall.

So, all right.

Then the agents said, well, maybe you need to put a hot wire on top of that wall. So they put the hot wire in, and of course that fried the cats.

And the agency got very angry about that. And the museum said, well, hold on. You guys are the experts. We're just trying to do. Anyway, they went through three rounds of applying for permits, the american government spent hundreds of thousands of dollars sending agents to Key west.

They rented an apartment across the museum, took surreptitious photos. They're labeled like, could be a cat from Hemingway museum on them. And PETA did a study. They brought in PETA, and PETA said they saw a bunch of fat and happy cats down there.

It took years, and ultimately, of course, it got resolved. But the museum tried to fight it and said, this regulation is too broad an interpretation of the statue. They fought it all the way to the 11th Circuitous and lost. The 11th Circuit said, you got a pretty good reading of the statute there, but there's something called Chevron deference, which requires us to favor the agency when there's any question about how best to read the statute. So you lose.

Megyn Kelly
And you point out, too, I want to get to Chevron. But in New York City, for an example, opening a restaurant in New York, citing a New York Times article, you'd have to go through eleven city agencies, often with conflicting regulations, get up to 30 permits, registrations, licenses, and certificates, and passed 23 different inspections. That's exactly the kind of bureaucracy that they were running into down at the Hemingway museum, where they just wanted to love these cats and not electrify them or electrocute them. Same thing as the poor magician who had similar problems. You got to read the book to find out his story, Marty Hayne, where he's just trying to pull a rabbit out of a hat, and if he wanted to pull an iguana out of the hat, he could have done whatever he wanted to it. But ultimately, they were actually getting down to the nitty gritty of, well, if a tornado comes, the cat needs to go into the holding shelter first, before the dogs and cats. I mean, it's insane.

Mark Adams
Megan, Megan. When he had a. So, yeah, he got whacked just like the people at the Hemingway museum. An agent came up when he was doing a show, children's show, and pulled the rabbit out of the hat and said, do you have a license for that? And he said, no, do I need a license? I mean, he's an law abiding guy. He wants to do it right. They told him, if it's an iguana, you don't need one. And if it were rabbit meant for stew, that's okay. You don't need one. But for the children's show, you need a federal license. And he got one, of course. And then later, after Hurricane Katrina, they said, well, now you need to have an emergency preparedness. Plan and for chemical spills and hurricanes and all manner of disasters. And he had to hire a disaster management expert to help him write a 28 page disaster management. He lives in Missouri. He says, we do have one thing I'm worried about, and that's tornadoes. And my plan is to get the family in the basement, then the dog and the cat. And if there's time, I'll get the rabbit. And, of course, the agent. No, no, I don't care about the dog or the family or the rabbit's got to go first. He even had a home visit. He had a home visit when they wanted to see how he carries the rabbit to the shows. And he showed him the cage.

The agent said, well, now, how do you know which way is up when you carry the rabbit? And Marty says, well, I've got a handle. I carry it from the handle. And they said, no, you have to have one of those stickers that says this way up on it. And he said, well, where do I get some? And the agent said, well, I'll send you some. And two weeks later, he got 200 stickers in the mail, thanks to your tax dollars.

Megyn Kelly
It's so we have to laugh because it's truly just absurd. But it's one of those laugh or cry situations, you know, of all these cases, because they wound their way through the judicial system, these people were forced to defend themselves against an overreaching federal government that does not understand those founding principles of how limited it was supposed to be and how we formed the whole country because we didn't want that boot on our neck inside of our homes. And when we do a magic show, not everything has to be over regulated. And one of the examples that's the most heartbreaking in the book, not the least of which, because we actually went there for a short time during the COVID lockdown, was what happened in Butte, Montana. It's where you may not know this justice. Rob O'Neill, the guy who shot bin Laden, is from Butte, Montana.

And, boy, I've talked to him many times, but I've never talked to him about the history of his hometown and how this government over regulation stopped people from helping themselves.

Mark Adams
Yeah. So Butte, Montana, 100 years ago, 150 years ago, is one of the richest places on the planet. They discovered copper there. And the wires for our telegraphs, our telephones, bullets for world War one, they came from Butte, Montana. It was so important in world War one that Omar Bradley was sent there to guard it.

And, of course, over time, the plant closes, the smelters close, and it becomes it's a tough place to grow up these days economically. And they also discovered that that smelter had poured a lot of arsenic into the air that had settled on the land. 300 sq. Mi around Butte became a superfund site.

And EPA did a good job with industry trying to clean it up. But they set the acceptable arsenic ranges to be left in the soil at 250 parts per million, in residential yards, and in many municipalities today, you cannot put anything in a landfill that's greater than 100 parts per million.

And about 100 people in Butte said, wow, I don't feel comfortable with 250 parts per million. Where did this come from? And can we do better than that? And EPA said, well, we think that's an acceptable cancer range, that 250.

And the people at Butte said, well, we'd like to clean up our own land or get this company to help us do better. I mean, we're talking about daycares and kids backyards.

And of course, the industry fought it fair enough. But EPA came in on the side of industry and they said that federal law preempted any efforts by the states to clean up the land or even by the people themselves in Butte, Montana without EPA's permission.

The case went all the way to the Supreme Court and we held that the law was exactly as EPA and the industry read it.

I dissented, but I admit my colleagues had a pretty strong reading of the law.

I guess my question just is, suppose that is what the law is.

Is that how it should be? What do we think? Of course, environmental regulation is very important. And maybe if there had been some earlier, we wouldn't have had the problem that we had in Butte. But at the same time, while expertise is important and Washington regulation is important, isn't the local knowledge of Butte also important?

Can't those people, aren't those people entitled to think about cleaning up their own land without asking people 3000 miles away in Washington for permission?

Megyn Kelly
Thanks for listening to the Megyn Kelly show. No b's, no agenda, and no fear.

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