#2142 - Christopher Dunn

Joe Rogan
Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

All right. Thanks for doing this, sir. I appreciate it. Oh, you're welcome. I've enjoyed many of your videos online, so I'm fascinated by these theories that you have, and that's one.

Christopher Dunn
So I'm excited. I'm excited that you're here. Could you please, first of all, could you tell everybody what your background is like? What did you start off doing professionally? I started as an apprentice in an engineering company in Manchester, England, and worked through the apprenticeship, received my journeyman papers, worked for a couple more years in England, and then I was recruited by an aerospace company company in America and immigrated to America.

And what did you do for this aerospace company? Well, I started out as a lathe turner. That was my specialty. A what? A lathe turner.

A lathe turner. Yeah. Right. So I was a lathe hand, right? So I operated, you know, horizontal lathes, vertical lathes.

Jamie
In England, you know, they had what they call them vertical boring mills. And in the States, you have to learn a different language right there, the cultural differences between. Right. So you pick up different terminologies for things like over here they call it a vertical turret lathe. In England, they call it a vertical mooring mill.

Christopher Dunn
And so you're working with machines. And when did you come up with this theory about the pyramid? Well, actually, I had been in the States for a while. It was, I came over in 1969, and in 1977, I picked up Peter Tompkins book, Secrets of the great Pyramid. And I started to examine that book.

Jamie
And one of the things that Tompkins, he asked to a very significant question in that book, and he said, does the great pyramid enshrine the lost science? You know, is the great pyramid a product of that science? Does it reflect that science? And I took that question very seriously, and that question was in my mind as I read through the book. And then I started to explore.

Joe Rogan
Some. Of the references that he provided in the bibliography. One of them was the work of William Flinders Petrie, and he described lathes being used in ancient Egypt. He described very large coring drills up to 18 inches in diameter. And he also claimed that they were using circular saws.

Christopher Dunn
When he's describing this, like, what kind of metal would they be using? Well, that's the thing. The question really demands that you explore all methods that you are able to when you satisfy the historical record, say the archaeological record, and you say, okay, I'm going to try this. Well, that's not going to work that won't work. So we'll try this.

Jamie
We'll keep improving our methods and tools until we arrive at a solution to the art, to explaining the artifact. That's the important thing. That's basically the demands on a manufacturing engineer, which I eventually became. So, you know, if a customer comes in and they bring a part to the company and said, I want you to make one just like this, what do we do? Well, we have to know what this is.

And to do that, you take measurements, you determine materials, how it was manufactured. You look for tool marks to see what processes may have been involved in it, whether there were dies, whether there's machining marks in areas. You look at the welds. Did they weld some parts? Did they braze other parts?

And then, of course, the geometries. And basically, that's your model. That's like, okay, I've got to make something just like this, right? But when you're making something, like, if you're looking at, say, some of the stone work that was done in the pyramid, where there's not in the pyramid, but in some of the quarries where you see these core drill holes. Right?

Christopher Dunn
Like, how would you reverse engineer that? Like, how would you figure out what could possibly do that? Well, that's the interesting question, and it's one that's been a huge debate going on about that. And it really goes back to 1984. And I had published an article called Advanced machining in ancient Egypt, and it was published in analog science fiction, science Fact magazine in August of 1984.

So you've been at this a long time. Is that before you were born? I was in high school, yeah. You were? Yeah, I was junior in high school.

Jamie
I wasn't. So it was. And, you know, Stanley Schmidt, Doctor Stanley Schmidt, who's the editor of Analog, very respected editor, selected it for publication, and we went through, you know, the editorial processes, suggested changes, stuff like that, and then it went out. And so what did you, when you look at, like, the core, the drill holes, the vases are another, like, very fascinating and real gigantic mystery as to how those were constructed. And we'll talk about those as well.

Christopher Dunn
Is that what it looks like? That's a model of one, but the core holes itself. We had a debate recently with Graham Hancock and Flint Dibble, and one of the things that Dibble had suggested was that they had done something with sand and that that was how they were able to do this, with copper and sand and they were able to drill. Does that make sense to you? Well, I mean, I've heard that theory about how they were done, and I know that there has been work done to prove that that theory is the correct one.

Jamie
But central to explaining at the actual core, if you go back and you read Petrie, he described a spiral groove around a granite core, and he said that it had, like, a pitch of 100,000 per revolution of the drill. And so that's what I was going on when I claimed, well, what kind of a process would you need? Can I stop you there? When you say a pitch of a thousandth per. Yeah.

For every revolution of the drill, it sinks into the granite 100 thousandths of an inch. Okay. So because of that, you know that this thing has to be operating at. A certain speed, not necessarily rotational speed, but the penetration rate. So which each, with each rotation, it will go how long?

Christopher Dunn
How far? 100 thousandths of an inch, which is almost at one 8th of an inch. So that's pretty impressive when you're talking about solid granite, correct? Yeah. And that probably wouldn't be possible with copper and sand.

No, it seems like sand and copper just are not abrasive enough. No. I contacted a company that specialized in drilling granite, and I asked them how many. What is the feed rate? That 100,000th of an inch would be the feed rate of the drill.

Jamie
What is the feed rate of your drills when you're drilling into granite? And I got a response from him, and he said, generally, you know, our drills, they're diamond. They rotate around 900 revolutions per minute, and the penetration rate is about two tenths of an inch per revolution. So two tenths, 210 thousandths of an inch per revolution. Oh, 210 thousand.

210,000. I'm sorry. Yeah, I misspoke. So 210 thousandths of an inch is like, 500 times smaller than 100,000. Wow.

Christopher Dunn
So these drills that they used in Egypt were capable of drilling with each revolution 500 times more than modern diamond drills that were used by people who cut into granite. That penetration rate was 500 times greater. So it might have been operating a slower revolution, but when it's going through its full revolution, it's much more effective. That's what I concluded. Now, is this in.

Sorry, but is this in multiple different drill holes, or is it one individual sample that they found that seems to operate at this depth per revolution? There have been inspections on several different. Cores, and have they all yielded similar results? And they have all revealed that the groove is a spiral. In other words, it's a continuous spiral around the core.

Jamie
The most recent examination of those corps was in 2018 by two aerospace engineers Eric Wilson and Josh Gere, and they asked the Petrie Museum in London permission to examine the cores in their collection. The Petri Corps number seven, which is the most famous corps and the one that has drawn the most heated kind of debate about. Can we see what that looks like? Jimmy, can you find that one? Petri core number seven.

It's on that. Yeah.

Christopher Dunn
Because this, to me, and the vases, obviously, and, of course, the construction, the pyramid itself. Right. Also the symmetry of the faces. There's so many things that are so mind blowing about whatever they did and how they did it. It's.

It's. Right. Forget about all the mysteries. Right. Just what we know in terms of.

Okay, so these are. These are these two core samples? These are these two core. No, they're the same one. And they're from lost technologies of ancient Egypt.

Jamie
And essentially what happened was the. There was a book written, I think it was in 1999. It was by Chris Ogilvy Herold and Ian Lawson, and it's called Geese of the Truther. And so what they did is they had contacted or they had associates that went into the Petri museum and examined the core to see if it was actually a spiral. So they took photographs of it, and they examined this, and they examined those photographs, and they said, no, they're horizontal.

Now, there's a big difference when you talk about a horizontal groove and a spiral groove. And so I was like, okay, I suspend all assertions as far as the methods that I proposed for how it may have been done. I need to go and examine that item myself. And so I booked a flight to England, and a friend of mine in Cambridge picked me up at the airport, Nick Anis. And we went to the peacher museum, and I examined the core.

The method I used was to just wrap a simple cotton thread around it. So you just followed the groove with the thread? With the thread. But I was wearing.

Christopher Dunn
Rubber gloves. Well, yes, I was wearing rubber gloves, but I was also wearing a visor with lenses in it that gave ten times ten. So you can really see where the grooves are? Yeah, yeah. You would find those items in any toolmaker's bike.

So if the lines were horizontal, you would go around in a circle. Then you'd have to cross over the ridge to hit to the next circle. Yeah, but in this case, it was continuous. No, you know, I mean, it was continuous. Right.

So it's. So how did they miss that? That seems like this is such an important piece of history, such a fascinating thing to examine. Look at this mystery. You have this granite core.

Joe Rogan
Right? How do they do it? There's lines on it. Are they horizontal or they're spiral. And then they just go, it's horizontal with, and then you come along with string and you're like, no, it's a spiral.

Right. Like, how did, how does someone screw that up? Yes. I mean, they would say that I screwed it up, obviously. But the thing is, Joe, is that, you know, when you're conducting research, anybody, whether you're a scientist or just a, you know, Joe blow in the tool room, and you are, you say, okay, this is what I found, and these are the methods I used and these are the results.

Jamie
Okay? Right. So you said you describe your experiment, you lay it out and you explain in detail how you did it. Wouldn't, with today's technology, wouldn't it be really easy to scan it? Well, it is now.

Yeah. And then they would. So have they done that? Have they definitively proven one way or the other there? I don't think there is a really high quality scan that would be necessary.

I mean, I've learned a little bit about scanning. It was just being introduced into manufacturing when I retired. Just before I retired, we started to look into it and we bought this white light scanning system. But now the systems now are so advanced, the systems now. And you would feed it through AI and it would tell you exactly.

Well, yeah. I mean, you basically, you could slice it, dice it, examine it any way you wish, but you need to have qualified people to do it. Not anybody that's not qualified could examine that. Right. So either way, these cores and those drill holes represent something sensational, something absolutely amazing, some, some 4500 year old drill that somehow or another was more effective than drills that are being used today.

Yeah, but you know, the, you know, the truth of the matter, Donald? Joe. What? It's probably.

Christopher Dunn
I wish you could just tell me that. We know so many missed.

Jamie
It'S probably the most insignificant artifact I've looked at. I'm sure you looked at so much in Egypt, but to me it's like a corner piece. Oh, people are freaking out over it. How could you? How dare you?

Christopher Dunn
Well, I'm sure because it throws everything into flux. Because how did they. The assumption is they did this through intense labor over long periods of time and it took forever to do. Right. And if they're operating at a pace that's 500 times more effective than a drill that's used by a modern.

Have you talked to other people that go into granite? Are there more sophisticated drills that work better or more. More powerful drills that work better than his. You know, the thing is, in manufacturing, and this is a. This is a fact.

Jamie
You don't know the full scope of what engineers are capable of doing. Right. Because you're not in every shop in every country, in every town in the world. And so nobody. Nobody knows exactly what all engineers are capable of.

There may be somebody actually reproducing the features on that. On that course somewhere using. Using some method. Right. I don't know.

You just don't know. But from the person that you talk to, that does it professionally, that uses high level equipment. His drill was 500 times less effective. It was. The feed rate was less.

The revolution could have been more. I mean, you said it earlier. Said, could it be rotating slowly. Right. It didn't have to spin very fast.

In fact, it's better when you're machining hard material, grinding hard material is that you don't. Because heat. Heat is the biggest enemy of a tool. Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense.

Joe Rogan
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so what do you think, if you had to guess that they were using.

Jamie
I actually created my own core just to experiment. Right. And I learned a lot doing it. I didn't use the same method as some of the other researchers that are out there that did it. I had a copper tube and I had corundum.

Christopher Dunn
What's corundum? Oh, I say a very, very hard grit that you used to grind into hard material. So the copper tube would be flat at the bottom, and then you'd put the grit in, the grit would act as. Right, right. And so you'd rotate it, rotate it, and rotate it.

Jamie
And, you know, I set up a jigger and a tube and just ground it, ground it, ground it, ground it just so that I could see the results of that. For one thing, they say the copper was the only metal that was available to the ancient Egyptians. But when it came to knocking out the core from the hole, I tried copper, and it wouldn't budge it. So I had to use a steel chisel. Is it possible that they use something else, like heat?

You know, I'm actually leaning more towards that because of the difference in the finish. Like, if they poured boiling water in it or something, would that loosen things? I don't think water would be, but the. If you compare the difference in the finish. I'm sorry, what did you.

Yeah, yeah. That is. That I don't think has been discussed. Discussed enough or recognized to be important enough is that when you use an abrasive like sand or like emery or anything to grind out a hole or do whatever. You leave a sanded finish naturally polished.

Not polished, sanded, sanded, smoother. Is that what you mean? It could be smooth, but it's definitely got a sanded finish. And what is the difference you a sanded finish and the finish of a diamond bit? Well, we don't.

We don't know if they were using. The diamond bit, but that's what they do today. Right. That's what they do today. So what is the difference between a sanded finish well and.

Well, you still have the same thing. You're using an abrasive. Right. You're keeping the abrasive as cool as possible as you're grinding away, but you're still grinding it. And so your finish is not going to be polished unless you have a secondary process where you go in and polish it with a finer grit.

You don't start with a very, very fine grit because you won't get anywhere with it. Let's take a look at some of those holes. Jimmy, can you show us some of those holes, the drill holes in granite in ancient Egypt. So, here we could see right here, which is absolutely wild, some of these images. I mean, that is absolutely wild, right?

Christopher Dunn
I mean, how the hell did they do that? Well, that's what just about. This is like an engineers playground over there. They go through there. Right.

And for, as an engineer, you must be just, like, scratching your head. Yeah, yeah. Fascinating stuff. Yeah. Jamie, click on that.

Well, yeah, there we go. That's a good one. I mean, that one's wild. That is just absolutely crazy. That is.

Jamie
It looks like it's at Abu Ghraib and it's in an alabaster. Have you ever measured the circumference of these things? No. Have you measured the diameters? Have you measured the.

Christopher Dunn
Whether or not they're equal circles? Well, they are definitely round. They're perfect. Yeah. Perfectly round.

Jamie
I wouldn't say perfect. No. So, absolutely. You can't say perfect. Right?

Of course, no such thing as perfect. Right. But they're around close enough to. And so this, these. Wow, look at that.

Christopher Dunn
That is amazing. So these circular holes were definitely cut by some kind of a drill? That's agreed upon. Yeah. Okay.

Joe Rogan
Yeah. So if you couldn't do it with the copper, like when you tried to do it with copper, how long did it take and how much. How much results did you get? Circular marks. Man, that is crazy.

Jamie
Here's a few days. That spiral right there is absolutely nuts. I mean, it just clearly looks like a drill hole? Yeah. I think that's my photograph, actually.

Joe Rogan
Is it? I took that one. So how long did it take you to drill a hole? Probably a day and a half, two days. Day and a half, two days.

Christopher Dunn
And how deep was the hole? The hole was probably two inches. Two and a half inches deep. Well, that seems like it's doable then. Right.

If you could just keep doing it day after day, week after week, you'd get a big core. Yeah. And that. I mean, and that's basically the. What everybody concludes.

Jamie
The Egyptologists will conclude that they had all the time in the world to do these things. But wasn't the pyramid of Giza, the great pyramid, wasn't that supposed to be completed inside of 30 years? In that, the hypothesis. I've heard that. Anything between ten years and 100 years?

Yeah, I have nobody. It's just guesswork, right? Yeah. I mean, there's. What is it, 2,300,000 stones.

Joe Rogan
Right. And the heaviest ones in the base. Like, what? What are the heaviest ones? Well, the ones that we know of in the great pyramid, way up to 70 tons.

Jamie
And those are the. In the king's chamber. The granite ones in the king's chamber. Yeah. So, so there's that.

Christopher Dunn
So there's the. The drill holes, which are just absolutely fascinating. And then this pottery we'll talk about before we get to the whole. What you think the pyramid is. So the pottery, like these vases that you're saying.

I shouldn't say pottery? No, they're not. I'm wrong. They're actually solid, carved. Right.

And they're carved out of very hard stone. Right. What is it they're carved out of? Oh, granite diorite. Dior rock.

Granite diorite and igneous rock. And the crazy thing is how well they're done. And if you show it. Could you pick that thing up to show everybody? The crazy thing is that it's not only perfectly symmetrical.

Again, don't use the word perfect. Right. Cause it's within what width of a human hair? Well, you go, it's some crazy. Yeah.

Jamie
Like two and a half thousandths or something like that. Two and a half thousandths of a human. Have you ever used one of these? Yes, I have. All right, so measure.

Measure the lip there. Right. See that? Yes, sir. Measure that and then turn it 90 degrees and measure it.

Joe Rogan
Okay. Obviously, it's not a real one. You wouldn't be. Let me hold. No, that is actually a 3d print.

Right. 3D print from the STL. Right. But it's not real. No, obviously.

Jamie
No, it's a copy of the original. And so, basically. So I'm measuring it here, and then I'm going to measure it here. So it's essentially exactly the same everywhere. Right?

Christopher Dunn
Is that the idea? It's within about a hour and a half. It's got a little bit of a chip in the top. Yeah. Well, you don't, because that's how it was.

Joe Rogan
Right. Don't measure that. And so it's perfect. Except up to what percentage of human. Hair, again, I would say in chop talk, it's perfect.

Christopher Dunn
In shop talk, it's perfect. Yeah, but the. But it's. Yeah, a human hair. Two and a half thou.

Joe Rogan
Three. So this is how you measured it all with this equipment? Well, this was a different. But the thing is, it's like you couldn't spin this on a potter's wheel. This is where it gets really crazy because of these handles.

Right. Now, these handles are also carved into the vase. And people would say, what's the big deal about a vase? The big deal is these goddamn handles. That's a big deal.

Christopher Dunn
Because even if you just slowly and meticulously, with the finest of craftsmanship, spun this to a perfect accuracy, just with, like, high grit sandpaper, you know, slowly, over time, made it perfectly round. And you got so good at it that you get it within. How much of a human? Arrogant about a human. Okay.

Jamie
Two and a half, though. Okay, let's say it's a human hair, which is pretty small. How the hell are you gonna do these handles? How are you gonna make these perfect, too? There's another question that you need to ask, too.

Christopher Dunn
How do you get the inside out? No, what? How do you measure it to be sure that you're within that human hair? Right. What kind of equipment are you?

Jamie
What kind of instruments do you use? Yeah, it seems like this would be a problem. Like, I don't think they had this. And if they did have this, they didn't have this part. How do you know?

Christopher Dunn
I don't know. I'm guessing. I don't know either. No, no. But we're thinking about what they had.

We're not thinking about things like this. We really don't know. Obviously, we don't know if we can't locate that drill. If you can't locate that drill, like, the drills real, the holes real. If you can't locate an ancient egyptian drill.

So there's a bunch of pieces of pottery. Yeah. And all of them have the same sort of similar measurement to them in terms of their perfection, actually, some of them. There's one. I think it's more precise than that one.

Joe Rogan
Really? The original? Yeah, they call it the spinner. I think it's that one at the front there. And we rotated that on the rotor at Danville metal stamping, and we staged it so that we were checking concentricity or run out all around.

Jamie
So we put an indicator in various places and then spun the rotary table to check the run out. And that thing. That one spinner vase blew me away. You know when you have. When you're measuring a diameter, right.

Just a straight diameter, and you check in the run out on a straight diameter and you know you have it. Okay, that's within 2000, you only have that one axis. That is actually affecting the movement of that indicator that you're using on this bowl. When you're on the side of it, on the crown, not right to the top, but just below it, you're at a place where the movement in two axes. Two axes is affecting the indicator reading.

So any error that you have vertically or is horizontally they meet at the top. Yeah. It's gonna. You're gonna get an accumulation of. Of error in run out.

Christopher Dunn
And how accurate was that one, the spinner? It's probably within a thou and a half a. What does that mean? A thousand? Well, about half the thickness of a human hair.

Half the thickness of a human hair. And one of the vases that's incredibly impressive is there's one with a longer neck and a lip on the top, and then it bowls out of the bottom. Yeah. And it's, again, all carved out of granite somehow. Right, right.

And how. How. What did they do to do that? Well, that's. That's the thing.

Jamie
I think we. There's. There's some other ones, Jamie, there's one of them that has, like, a longer neck. See if you could find it online, maybe. Yeah, there seems to.

We seems to be stuck in a time walk where.

Trying to come to terms with how the pyramids were built, with how all these artifacts were built.

Oh, okay. That's a nice posh cup. Can I keep this? Yes, sir. It's all yours.

Joe Rogan
Cheers. Cheers, mate. Thank you for being here. All right, so continue.

Christopher Dunn
So, we're lost in history. So. Yeah, I mean, so we have competing forces. We've got, on one side, you have practical engineers, practical scientists, and they want to. They want to measure everything.

Jamie
Exactly. And regardless of what current theories prescribe, how they were made, they want to explore other methods. However, on the other side, on the side of science, engineers I mean, not engineers, archaeologists, or Egyptologists.

They believe that if you're examining an ancient artifact and you're a modern engineer, that you have to work under the guidance of an archaeologist or an egyptologist, otherwise your work is not. Would not be recognized. That's weird. And that's that. And that is happening.

I mean, that's the fact. And they admit it. So that is. That is the situation. They say.

I think it's a systemic problem because it is certainly not a way to do science well. And also, they're not educated in those disciplines, supposedly. Well, bingo. Yes. I mean, I wouldn't be able to understand what's required to do that.

Christopher Dunn
Now. What, the conventional explanation being some sort of copper and sand? If that's the conventional explanation, there's no evidence of any copper drills. Correct.

Jamie
If you go to the Cairo museum, they have a. I think there's a tube that they describe, a small tube that they describe as a. But nothing that carved those large metals out of grain. Yeah. They're just going on the assumption that only copper existed during that period.

And so that was the metal that was available to them. That was the metal that they had. The tubes that they have in the museum. Are these tubes authentic tubes that were used on the site for something?

I would have to go back and refresh my memory on that because it was quite a while before I looked at it. But the point is, they have a replica of an ancient boat. They know they boats. They know what the boats looked like. They don't have the actual drill.

Christopher Dunn
So whether it's something exotic that we didn't know that they had capability to create, or whether it's what they think it is, neither one of those exist. They don't exist. Okay. No, I mean, nothing exists. Everything right now is theory.

Jamie
And so we're stuck in a bit of a time walk, and we're stuck that it's between two disciplines. So what is the reluctance of the archaeologists to accept the findings of the engineers? If the goal is the truth? So if the goal is to figure out, instead of just having assumptions that you're going to cling to as dogma as to what was done, wouldn't the goal be, let's find out what the truth is, what's capable of doing this? If they talk to enough engineers and especially enough people that actually carve into granite, then you would get an understanding of what we know today.

Christopher Dunn
This is the only thing that can do this. This is how it's possible. Yeah. And then you would try and reproduce the artifacts of the ancient Egyptians produced and then compare the results. Right.

Jamie
That's what you have to do. You have to. So the reluctance is they don't believe that the Egyptians had any more advanced technology than what we assume they had, which is pulleys and ropes and copper tools and sand and the like. Yeah. One would assume that you'd have to ask an Egyptologist, and you may get a different answer depending on who you ask, I'm sure.

Yeah, sure. There's probably a lot more open minded people coming up now. Yes. Particularly in Egypt. Yeah, yeah.

There's a tremendous kind of quiet revolution going on in Egypt because you go where you feel like you're going to be welcome. If you're not welcome somewhere, you find someone. So when I put my work out and I was talking to people in the nineties on message boards, and I could see that I wasn't getting anywhere there, and I thought, well, okay, who has the most to gain and who has the most to lose by opening this up and exposing everything and getting it out in the open? Who has the most to gain if they come down on my side? And who has the most to lose?

And obviously, those who have the most to lose are the western institutions who have written the history of the world and written the history of Egypt. And so I decided, well, I have to appeal to egyptian engineers. And so in my second book, lost technologies of ancient Egypt, I appeal. I put out a challenge to modern egyptian engineers to go out and check the artifacts for themselves. And that's what they did.

One man, one engineer. I don't know how many other engineers were involved, but also I'm talking to Egyptology tour guides. And the message I'm getting is that the primitive tomb theory is pretty much on the way out.

The young people are being energized and looking at their artifacts in a different way. So the engineer that I took up the challenge is called Ahmed Adli. And he followed my path. He went into the serapeum and checked those huge granite boxes. He did a study of the statues.

He presented the geyser power plant theory to a physicist at Cairo University.

And it's like, wow, times are changing. So the egyptian youth are taking hold of the reins and they're excited about their future. You know, just recently there was a, there was a, there was like a stem class. It was put on by Narma American University, and it was held at the grand egyptian museum. And there were over 200 students that took place.

And the professors and teachers of these. Students.

Got Ahmad Adli involved to design experiments, to talk about pyramids as energy sources, talk about the statues, symmetry designed projects that the kids could do, and even to the point of taking a slab of copper and trying to cut a brick using the old method, just so that they could get a hands on feel for what it was like. It's all very well to sit at home in your armchair and come up with a theory, but if you don't go out and test it, then are you just going to buy it? Rope. Okay. I respected.

Respected professor tells me that this. This was done with copper. Copper chisels or copper slabs. And, well, if he says it, then he's got to be right, because that's what he's paid for. He's paid to teach the truth.

Christopher Dunn
What is the oldest known iron that we are aware of?

Oh, in terms of steel? Yeah, that's a little outside my wheelhouse. I don't know. I won't be able to answer that accurately. Right.

But they don't think that the Egyptians had it. Well, there was metal iron found in the great Pyramid. There was? Yeah. I think it was during Petri's time, an engineer called Pering discovered an iron plate that was lodged near the.

Jamie
Near one of the shafts, wasn't there? Also, didn't one of the pharaohs have a dagger that was made from a meteorite, supposedly, yeah. Meteoric iron, yeah. Mm. Okay, so.

So how old is that? I don't know. And. And really, when you talk about. When you talk about the smelting of iron, you know, I mean, I think you had that discussion on with your.

When, Graham. And did we talk about that, Jamie? Like, when. And. Yeah.

Carl
Smelting being. That could have been, though. But let's find out what. What is the conventional date that they use today for the smelting of iron when they start doing that? I think the discussion was the appearance of lead in these ice cores that were.

Jamie
That were drilled. Oh, that's right. Right. Industrial activity, basically what they were looking for. So, 1200 BC.

Christopher Dunn
Okay, the history of ferrous. How do you say that word? Ferrous? Ferrous metallurgy began far back in prehistory, most likely with the use of iron from meteors. Ah, there you go.

The smelting of iron. Bloomeries. Is that it? Bloomeries, what do you say? Began in the 12th century BC in India, Anatolia or the Caucasus.

Iron use in smelting and forging for tools appeared in sub saharan Africa by 1200 BC. So it could be that these pharaohs, that the one that had the iron dagger made out of a meteorite? Maybe that was later. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Two ton comet. Okay. So for sure it was. Look at that. Meteoric iron dagger.

Joe Rogan
Wow. So that's 1334 to 1325 BC. Interesting. Mm hmm. Well, that's earlier.

Christopher Dunn
That's earlier than they said people were smelting. Found it. They don't know when they made it. Yeah, but that's different. Right, but that.

But if it's two ton common, that's his time. Yeah, but that iron came from outer space. Right, but. So they could have hammered it into that position. Yeah.

So, you know, smelt it. So we know they're aware of it, at least. At least at this. At 1300 BC, we know they're aware of iron, but there's just no evidence of tools. Yeah, I mean, I can't.

Jamie
I wouldn't. I don't know if they knew what the metallurgy of these materials that they found, but they had a material that they could shape, and they shaped it. Into a dagger, but we don't know if they shaped it into tools or shaped it into some other things. He says that the iron plate right here says it was unlikely that it was a byproduct of copper. Smelting operations is badly corroded.

Christopher Dunn
The outer layer of the iron have been badly corroded and now formed expanded iron oxide. Significant proportions of gold were found in one of the oxidized layers, and the plate may originally have been gold plated. New data coupled with the original archaeological information strongly suggest the iron plate is contemporary with the building of the pyramid and that it is therefore one of the oldest known pieces of iron. Yeah, I think Petrie described it as having numelites that had somehow been deposited on the surface. So at least that's some evidence of iron in great pyramids.

Jamie
But, you know, as far as what iron was it smelted? Right. And that's the question. Did they have the capability of doing that? And when right.

Christopher Dunn
And when right. Right. So it's just pure speculation as to what they use for the core. What is the conventional thought as to how they made these vases? I mean, there are.

Jamie
There are demonstrations of crafting ancient vases, but I think this recent research and the discovery of the precision of them, which had always been a question mark until just recently. You know, people would go through the Cairo museum or, you know, in any museum in the world, and they'd see these beautiful, finely crafted artifacts made out of igneous rock, and they look extraordinarily precise. And I've done that. The same. I mean, I look at them, and I was like, wow, I'd like to get one of those in my shop and just check it out, you know, quality inspection.

And so for years, that was a. For me, it was like, always a question. Love to know how precise those vases are. And then in 2018, the owner of that original vase, Adam Young, he came on the tour, and he befriended my son Alex. And they were talking about the vases.

And Alex was a quality inspector, quality engineer to the company that I worked at, since he worked at another company in Indianapolis. Now I think he's working in the metrology lab at Rolls Royce in Indianapolis. And so he's like, well, we should scan them or do an inspection. So Adam brought his vase down to Indianapolis and to where Alex was working, and you got permission from the managers at the shop to do an inspection of them. And it seems like, you know, you talk to people, shop people, right?

People who are actually out there every day making quality parts that people do, people's lives depend on. You know, if you fly on an airplane and you. And I told one of the. There's another owner of vase, he's got a lot of them. And I told him, I said, you know, you're carrying in your hand an artifact that is more precise than some of the parts that were installed in the engine that was on the plane that you flew in.

That's going. And he's like, wow, okay. I mean, that's where you bring it home. And so all these guys who are making these artifacts, right? And they're held to exacting standards every day.

They can't slip up. They can't make mistakes. You know, there's no fudging or faking anything. Otherwise you'd be out on your ear or people would be falling out of the skies. Right?

Christopher Dunn
So that's for those parts. And these artifacts are more precise than that, which is just insane. Well, not all of them. I mean, there are parts in an airplane engine or aircraft engine that are more precise. I mean, are features.

Jamie
Features of the parts are more precise. And that's where. And can I. Could I. I want to explain something here, because I think it's a very, very important point, and it has confused a lot of people.

Really confused a lot of people. The apart any part that you have, you know, whether it's, say something for your car, you know, say a crankshaft or something like that, right? You take a crankshaft, it's got very precise features on it, and then there are features that are not so precise. Because they don't need to be. It all depends on what the customer requirements are.

So they don't. They don't build precision or. Or require precision in a product where it's not needed. That just wastes of time. It just makes it more expensive.

But now you have people who are looking at some of these artifacts, like the boxes in the serapeum, and they're finding imprecise areas of the boxes. The photograph of me inside one of those boxes with a. With a toolmaker's precision square. I mean, there's nothing. Nothing simpler, right?

You take a square, you stick it out, and you check to see if the. If it's square, if the surface is flat, is it square? Yeah, that's fine. And now you got guys going around on the outside of the box and finding inaccuracies. Some areas inside boxes that have inaccuracies.

And now they're calling me a liar. They say that I faked and fledged measurements, right? It's like, I don't know, the cancel culture. They want to get away from what is their. Their beef.

Christopher Dunn
Like you used a square. Yeah. And you measured things and you found them to be precise. And I said, holy shit, look at this. And what are they using before?

What equipment are they using that's showing that your equipment, what your measurements are, were inaccurate. They are not. They don't go to the area and show that the area that I was checking is imprecise. They will find some other area that is less precise. Point to that.

Jamie
And lead the viewer to believe that that defines everything. Right. So everything is not precise, but much of it is. Yes. Okay.

Joe Rogan
Yeah. And the areas that aren't necessary to be precise, like the outside of the box, are not as precise as the inside. Is that what you're saying? They don't have to be. Right.

Christopher Dunn
They don't have to be. So when it comes to precision, like the precision of the faces, for instance, in some of the sculptures, what is the conventional explanation for how precise they are? Because these are massive faces that were supposedly carved by hand, but the accuracy on either side of the face is so phenomenal. Yeah, bizarrely so. Like, how accurate?

Jamie
Well, exactly, we don't know. But I mean, as far as the methods that I used, which is like 2d photography, and then comparing features in the computer for symmetry, you know, and some geometric features, nobody had done that before. And so I come along, you know, I said, wow, this is actually, it kind of hit me. Was in the first time I went to Egypt and I was at Saqqara and I was looking down the length of the statue of Ramses at the open air museum there, and I said, well, those. The nostrils are extraordinarily symmetrical.

I mean, they match, right? Most people's nostrils are different if you look at them. And so that's my photograph. There's the measurements on each side. They're exact.

Yeah, they're as exact as I could make it. But, you know, I qualify the work that I did by saying, this is not the final answer. There needs to be more sophisticated measurements taken, more accurate measurements taken. They need to be scanned and then they need to be analyzed where you have a precise scan, where you're not trusting your eyes, you're actually trusting, you know, the tried and true development of laser scanners. But at the very least, the amount of symmetry that exists in these massive statues is spectacular.

It's mind blowing. I can't even express it. It's absolutely mind blowing. I mean, you look at the one with the. How large are these that we're talking about?

Well, there, the one that I measured was, the first one was at the Luxor museum and it's out outside. I would say it's probably about 4ft something.

Christopher Dunn
But there's very large ones too, just. Like the face and the headdress.

Jamie
There are larger ones. Yes. I think the one at the. That was taken from the Ramesseum and is now in the british museum was a large statue. How big was that?

I think. Well, they say that the statues, the statues at the Ramesseum weigh up to 1000 tons. I'm not sure, but they're really big. Really big. 1000 tons.

Joe Rogan
Look at that. Well, I wouldn't want to say, yeah, 1000 tons, but I would say they were extremely heavy. Now, what is the conventional speculation as to how the symmetry was achieved? I've heard different ideas where you take a mirror and then you kind of match it, you know, when you guides your hand and another one where you take a pointer and you set a depth and then you transfer that from one side to the other. And those are, you know, I mean, I don't know anybody who is a, you know, precision manufacturer who would accept such an explanation.

Jamie
And really, at the end of the day, you have to say, okay, well, show me and we'll match, you know, show me and we'll check yours and compare it to the original. That's the only way to solve the problem. And so this is just one example of one of the mind blowing mysteries involved in this culture, that they had some kind of capability of not just doing that and not just making the vases, but also making the pyramids themselves, which are beyond comprehension. They're huge. I mean, you know, the thing is, is that you have.

I don't think. I wouldn't say not all engineers think alike. Right. But I don't. I've never been with an engineer who has examined this subject and been to Egypt that is not absolutely blown away by what they're seeing.

And I saying, no, you can't do it by hand. You can't hold those kind of tolerances by hand. You look at the Ramsey statue and you look at the symmetry. It's not two dimensional symmetry. I mean, I was just measuring a two dimensional photograph.

It's not two dimensional. It's three dimensional. So that radius that you see going around the jawline is moving in three axes, right? X, y, z. And you're still coming up with a radius.

Joe Rogan
Perfect radius. Crazy nuts. Yeah. So let's go to the pyramid itself. So you have a very fascinating hypothesis as to what the pyramid, or theory as to what the pyramid actually was, and it's based on where the supposed king's chamber is, where those passages go through into it.

Christopher Dunn
And what do you think that thing was? Well, my first book pretty much describes what I thought it was in 1998, which was a power plant. The book is entitled the Giza Power Plant. My second book has evolved, and I describe it as an electron harvester. So, you know, it's kind of like you could describe it as both.

Jamie
But today, when you do, people in any decade, they think of a power plant and they see these huge chimneys with smokestacks. Or a new plant. Yeah, a new plant. You know, our power plant. Dirty, nasty, unclean.

But an electron harvester, clean, pollution free. Not a problem. Has that been achieved conventionally? I mean, today, is there a thing called an electron harvester? I think that actually, when you look at a generator that's an electron harvester, because we don't create electrons, we just harvest them.

It's just how we do it. And so, you know, when you say an electron harvester, you could say that, you know, say a wind genome, you have a windmill, you have a generator inside it, and then you're collecting electrons off the commutator in a generator, and. That'S where the electricity comes from, and that's where. That's your electricity. Right.

Christopher Dunn
Or hydroelectric. You'd use the flow of the water. Yeah, you don't. You don't create the elect. You just release them.

You harvest it from a process through a process. And the process that you think they use in the great pyramid involved those shafts. It involves a lot of things. Yeah. It's not just one single thing.

Jamie
It's a system. Not a single thing. So when you look, we show a photo of that. Do we have a photo of the pyramids and the shafts and where the king's chamber is where you. I know you've described this before.

Joe Rogan
Mm hmm. Do you have a photo of. I do. It's, uh. It's in the, uh.

Carl
I was trying to figure out which one you want. Okay, this is perfect. This works. Yeah. So, uh, these names, the king's chamber and the queen's chamber, you don't think that that's actually a king's chamber or queen's chamber.

Christopher Dunn
You think it's something else? Well, out of respect to the Egyptians, I call it what they say, yeah. But I do have a different terminology for them as they function. Now, the initial surface of the great pyramid is covered in smooth limestone, right? So it's polished and shiny.

And apparently it would collect insane amounts of light. Well, the outer surface of the great pyramid mostly is missing, but it has been described as if it was finished. And depending on the polish that it received. Yeah, it could. It could reflect a lot of light.

Do you think that that had something to do with the design of this power plant? I don't think. I don't there. I don't think there's any part of that pyramid that did not serve a practical function. Okay, so this is the image that you have here.

And what this image shows us is the king's chamber, the various shafts, the southern shaft, the northern shaft. And these shafts have been described as portals to stars because people have looked up through there and you go through the shaft, you see stars. But what you're saying is something entirely different. What do you think these shafts were for? Well, I think they serve two different purposes, actually, four different purposes, if you will.

Jamie
Because in the theory that I propose, which is. I don't know. It's a speculation. The whole process is kind of like a heuristic process where you're grabbing information, you're moving here. Doesn't matter what.

What source you're getting it from, right. Because when you are looking for answers, you know, you look everywhere. You try and find, you know, you look everywhere. So when I was going through the. The process of, like, trying to figure it out, I was collecting information from.

Joe Rogan
Every.

Jamie
And one of, you know, for the south, for the southern shaft and the northern shaft of the queen's chamber. Chamber. That was a huge mystery to me, and I. And I tried to fit it into the. What were they doing?

I mean, if you look at the details, the facts of their design and what the ancient Egyptians were doing, why they designed them that way. You have two conduits coming into a chamber, but they're not connected to the chamber. And we didn't even know they existed until 1872 for Waymond Dixon. Can you show me that image again, please? So they're coming into the chamber, but they don't enter into the chamber, so they stop.

Their original design had the shaft's ending five inches before coming into the chamber. So you had, like, five inches of limestone that was left in the block. So did someone remove that limestone? Yes. Why did they do that?

Waymond Dixon because they were examining the chamber and they were poking around and Waymond Dixon, it is reported, so the legend goes, noticed a crack in the wall. And so he took a rod and pushed it through the crack. And the rod, it didn't meet any resistors. It kept going. So he had his worker, a worker, come in, Bill Grundy, with a hammer and chisel and say, chisel?

Chisel the limestone around that. People are stupid. Well, they did, yeah. They didn't have ultrasonic thickness. No.

Christopher Dunn
God damn. To have the arrogance to go and chip away at the pyramid. Because look at how, you know, I don't care for revisionist historians, because, you know, you have to consider what people were doing, their mindset in the day. And then you. I try to look at the.

Jamie
On the bright side, right. It's like, I don't look at it as a negative thing, because if somebody hadn't opened up those shops, we wouldn't know about them. Right. And it's same with the chambers above the king's chamber. Without Howard Weiss and his military expedition blasting his way up into the pyramid, we wouldn't know about them either.

You won't be. I mean, there's a lot there. I think there's a lot there right now. And it's been investigated now, but there's things that are been revealed through scanning, like mu ography, the scan pyramid project. And they found that large void above the grand gallery.

Joe Rogan
Right. And so, you know, which is larger. Than the king's chamber. Right. It's longer than the king's chamber.

Yeah. And so is that. That's not even represented here on this. It's about the size of the cabin on a Boeing 707. Wow.

Christopher Dunn
So if these shafts came through and then they met limestone at the end. What do you think was going on?

Jamie
In order to answer that question, I had to look at the rest of the pyramid. Okay. What was it doing and how was it functioning? And so one of the key pieces of evidence that I used to propose a process that was going on is the northern shaft. And the northern shaft has dimensions and has an appearance that is similar to a waveguide that you would use for microwaves.

And the dimensions of it would be. Would be approximate wavelength of hydrogen.

Christopher Dunn
Explain a waveguide. How does that work? Yes, it's like a waveguide is to transmit microwaves, electromagnetic energy, you know, in the microwave region, and it is passed more efficiently through, like, a tube or waveguide. And that's what they use. I mean, they're very complicated systems, you know?

And so how did this represent in your mind what a waveguide looks like? Actually, you know, the idea of a waveguide came to me from a guy.

Jamie
We were talking about the pyramids. And I wish I carry, I used to carry a schematic of the great pyramid in my back pocket. And I meet an engineer, and I go, hey, hey, come here. Start going through. So what do you think about this?

Because I was looking for answers, suggestions, brainstorming, anything, right? And it's like, so these shafts right here. And he looks at it, he was into electronics, electronic engineering, and he's like, hmm, they look like wave guides to me. And I thought, well, that's interesting. They look like wave guides.

Okay, what if they are wave guides? How did they function? I mean, what were they used for? What were they using waveguides for in, you know, ancient Egypt? And so I started to go down that rabbit hole, and that led me to the queen's chamber.

I say, okay, wave guides, you need a medium. You need wave, you know, microwaves to go through a waveguide. What. What frequency of microwave was it? Right.

And you look at the dimensions and you come up. You come up with a match for hydrogen. Oh, how do you do that? How do you come up with a match for hydrogen through the dimensions? Yeah.

Yeah. The wavelength of hydrogen is 8.309 inches, and the width of the northern shaft is 8.4 inches. And a waveguide generally has the wavelength and then about half of the wavelength in height. So it's a rectangular shaft, just like. All the shafts are.

Joe Rogan
Yeah. And the. Well, the. Yeah, the queen's chamber shaft is a little more square than the king's chamber shaft. So that a different function.

Jamie
Different function, yeah. So these wave guides, you believe, what are they connect, collecting? And where are they getting it from?

Good question, Joe. They. They had. We are bombarded with microwaves every. Every day.

I mean, it's the signal from. They say the big bang. And, you know, there's a. It comes from atomic hydrogen out in the universe, in our space. So we're being bombarded.

Christopher Dunn
And you believe that these passages. We're collecting this? Yeah. So anyway, so then you say, okay, if we build a device and we say and we want to energize hydrogen, we bring it to a higher energy state. And just like, you know, in a laser where you have microwave amplification through stimulated emission.

Joe Rogan
Right? So, so if we want to collect energy that is in a gaseous medium, say that it's hydrogen medium, and the electrons in the hydrogen are pumped up to a higher energy state, and we want to collect the energy in that, introduce a microwave signal, direct it through that gas and stimulate the emission of the energy. Collect that energy and shoot it up the 7th shaft. And so that was like, okay, that might work. So what kind of gas?

Jamie
Hydrogen. And so where are you getting the hydrogen from? Queen's chamber. So there's hydrogen in the queen's chamber. And how does it get in there?

The shafts. But it doesn't come in as hydrogen. That's. That's a part of the theory. In the geyser power plant, was it, you know, there are two chemicals that are introduced into the chamber, and the chemicals mix and they boil off hydrogen.

Christopher Dunn
And these chemicals are just coming from the radioactive waves of space? No, no. The chemicals, I believe, are manufactured and delivered to those shafts and come in. Okay. So they add some sort of chemicals to it.

And what function does the limestone have at the end that keeps it from going into the king's chamber, keeps it blocked off? Well, to answer that question, I was having a chat with a civil engineer who was putting in a septic system for me. And so with a leach field, and he was doing a percolation test, right? This is in Indiana, and Indiana is known for its fine limestone. His name was Roland Dove, a city engineer.

Jamie
And I asked him, I said, well, what do you do? How does this function? If you are in an area where there's not much topsoil, you scrape away maybe a flood of topsoil and then you're on the bedrock. What do you do then? And he said, well, if you are, limestone is permeable.

And basically you follow the same steps that you would as if you were digging into earth. Just dirt. You dig a hole, you cut a hole in the limestone and you determine how quickly the water would disperse or would actually seep out. And I was like, wow. Okay.

Christopher Dunn
So the limestone acts as a filter, not a foot. Well. I mean, it would have filter, yes, but definitely the water would not just stay there, right? It would go through it, but it would go through it at a certain rate. And I said, okay.

Jamie
I said, let me ask you this.

How do you determine the flow rate? How would you determine the flow rate of a column of water going through limestone? And he said, well, that would depend on the head pressure. How much pressure, what weight is pushing against the limestone? And I go, aha, okay, that's interesting.

So then I go back to the drawing boards, I go back to my blueprints of the great pyramid, and I'm looking at the southern, northern shaft of the queen's chamber, and I see that they, both of these shafts go up to an area that nobody knows where it goes. At that time, when I was doing research, nobody knew where they ended. But I was thinking, well, if they are feeding a chemical, they would need to be assured that they can maintain a particular head pressure that would be calculated the weight of the column of fluid. And essentially, as these are on an angle, you know, your calculations may get a little more complicated, but you would figure it out. Or you could do it by trial and error.

But not all the evidence was in to really kind of solidify that theory. Right? It's like, okay, I've got this much data. This is what I'm working with. There's a lot of unknowns I don't know.

So what do we do? And then in 1993, a german engineer, Rudolph Gantenbrink, he was invited to Egypt, and he was working under the german mission in Cairo, and he had permission to. Or they wanted him to actually examine, get a robot, examine all those shafts, both the king's chamber and the queen's chamber?

Actually, no, mostly the king's chamber. They wanted to ventilate the pyramid, and so they wanted to make sure that the shafts were clear and that when they installed their fans, that there won't be any obstruction. And so he built a robot to go through these, clean the shafts out, and then install fans in the king's chamber. But it's always been a mystery in the. As far as the queen's chamber shafts, where did they end?

Nobody knew. Nobody had explored them that far. So he proposed that they allow him to build another robot and examine the shafts in the queen's chamber, which he did, that he had a robot. They called it Upwa. Two, which means the opening of the ways.

Joe Rogan
Right. And so with his robot, he had a, you know, he had a tether behind it and, you know, a camera, lights, and it crawled its way. It was like a track vehicle. And there was a mechanism for the upper track that caused it to grip the ceiling. And it was able to climb up the shaft.

Jamie
And they were looking for where it ended. And they found where it ended after. A few. Kind of obstacles, one being what he called a tank trap, which was like a depression in the floor of the shaft, a drop of about two inches, which is another story entirely. I don't think the full truth of why that is there has been figured out yet or explained, but they're working on it.

And so his robot got so far up the shaft and they discovered that there was a block at the end of the shaft and through the block to metal fillings. Metal? What kind of metal? Uh, we don't. I don't know.

Christopher Dunn
So a person hasn't gone over there and gotten a sample of it. So I don't really know. It's just speculation. I don't know. There's some kind of metal things.

Jamie
They assumed that they were copper. And how far is it from the outside edge of the pyramid? Oh, well, you do ask some awkward questions. I don't have that information in front of me. But I would say that if you are wanting to reach the end of the.

Where that southern shaft is, the shortest route that you could take would be through a horizontal passage that goes directly out to the outer surface of the great pyramid. Just a horizontal passage going up? Going down. Can I see the image again, please? So what we're looking at when you're seeing the shafts.

Christopher Dunn
Hold on a second. No worries.

Carl
More helpful with that part or do you want the whole thing? I want to see what it looks like on the outside. Yeah, that one. Yeah. So say it again.

Christopher Dunn
What would be the best way to access it? Yeah, I mean, if you go to the end of the shaft and just have a show short horizontal shaft going, or passage going out to the outer face, you would have a shorter distance than if you went up or down. So that would be the ideal place to have access to it. But it doesn't go. This makes it look like it goes all the way to the outside edge of the pyramid.

That's not the case. Well, the queen's chamber shaft. No, the king's chamber shaft. Well, the king's chamber shaft does go to the outside. It goes all the way outside.

Jamie
It goes all the way to the outside. Okay. And so the queen's chamber shaft, it stops quite a bit before the outside edge of the pyramid. Right? Right.

Christopher Dunn
So both of them function in a different way. Yes. And so you feel like in the king's chamber shaft that something was poured in, some kind of chemicals was poured into those shafts. Queen's chamber shaft, yeah, but not the king's chamber shaft. Not the king's chamber.

So the queen's chamber shaft, what is the difference? And why do you think that there was chemicals poured in that and not into the king's chamber? Because the queen's chamber was a reaction chamber. So that's where the hydrogen was produced. The hydrogen filled the interior spaces of the great pyramid and also which included the king's chamber.

Jamie
And then through the action, different actions, whether it be the Freund effect, which we can talk about, and that's the release of electrons from the lithosphere or the accumulation of vibration, or the collection of vibration and how it was centered or focused into the king's chamber. It created a highly energized atmosphere. So it was. Have they found access to the northern and southern shafts in the queen's chamber? To the.

Christopher Dunn
To the shafts. Have they found access where the Egyptians would have been able to pour chemicals into those? No, not yet. Not yet. No.

But they have found something that's not represented. Represented on this image. Another chamber. Right. Which is more recent.

Joe Rogan
Right. I mean, the. My. My new book has updated images in it to describe the. What is.

Jamie
What new has been discovered? And that new chamber is above the king's chamber, is that correct? It's actually above the. The grand gallery. Okay.

And it kind of wraps around, or is, you know, close to the northern shaft. That's an interesting place for it to be, too, which prompted my research associate, Eric Wilson, who's an aerospace engineer, to suggest that that actually feature, if it is what he thinks it is, would complete my theory because it would serve as a preamp for the microwave. So the microwave, he said that was the thing that was missing. And my. My theory was that I didn't.

There was no preamp. So is there an image that we can look at that shows where this new chamber, the newly discovered, I should say chamber. Could I take a break? Yes, sure. Sure.

I need to go to. Yeah, absolutely. We'll be right back. All right. So you were just discussing the chambers and how you believe fluid was in the shafts of the queen's chamber and that it somehow or another created hydrogen with these chemicals.

Christopher Dunn
How is the microwave going through those chambers, if it's blocked off from the outside, is it penetrating through the stone? Well, it doesn't go into the queen's chamber. So that's through the king's chamber shaft, which are open. Okay, so the king's chamber shafts is what's collecting the microwaves. The queen's chamber shafts have the, what you believe?

Some chemicals in there. Right. And then what is happening with those chemicals? They're mixing and boiling off hydrogen. Okay, so they're creating hydrogen.

And what is the function of the space in those shafts? Does that help the chemical process? Is that what it is, the space. In the shafts where they're filling them up with liquid? Oh, yes.

Jamie
That is predetermined. To make sure that it maintained a head pressure.

The fittings or the metal fittings, I describe as switches, like fluid switches. So when the fluid or the chemical was covering those. Those metal fittings, I call them electrodes, there would be a closed circuit.

When the fluid level dropped, it would open the circuit and signal the need for more chemicals to be pumped in in order to maintain the head pressure, in order to make sure that there is an accurate supply of that chemical. And so that chemical would pool up inside of the queen's chamber? It would probably, yes. I mean, we don't. There's a lot that is missing from the queen's chamber.

You have a niche in the east wall. We don't know what that was for. I suspect that it had something to do with. They may have been an evaporation tower or something like that, where the. The chemicals may extend wicked up through some materials and, you know, maybe it dried.

Christopher Dunn
Can you show me the image again, please? Yeah. And so here we have. So there's the chemicals that are in the shafts. You have the queen's chamber, which is collecting the hydrogen.

And then what happens into the king's chamber. While that is going on? The king's chamber is vibrating in sympathy with the earth, and it is actually a coupled oscillator with the earth. How so? How does that work?

Jamie
Well, a coupled oscillator is a device that's attached to a larger vibrating device and is in sympathy. And what is causing the king's chamber to vibrate? The passage of vibration through the pyramid of the earth, of the earth, which is assisted, is coupled by using what I call a Tesla device in the subterranean chamber. Because you've got three, four. You've got several systems in there.

Right? So if you got the subterranean chamber that serves one function, you go up to the queen's chamber that serves another function. You go up to the king's chamber that serves another function. And in between, you have the grand gallery, the ascending passage, got the descending passage. All of these things are there for a reason.

Christopher Dunn
And so the subterranean chamber, how do you think that worked? I would speculate that. And actually, if you read Tesla and some of his writings, he suggests that with very little energy, you could build a device that imparts energy or thrusts into a structure. And if it is in harmony or the exact frequency with that structure, it could bring the structure down just by an accumulation of energy of vibration. The amplitude would keep.

Jamie
And if you kept pounding it and pounding, pounding it, eventually it would all come down. I mean, that was. That's why they instructed soldiers when they're on the march, to break step when they cross a bridge, because their footsteps might cause the bridge to oscillate and destroy. It's a very destructive force. Is this frequency oscillating vibrations?

Christopher Dunn
So what would cause. What kind of device in the subterranean chamber would do that? He built a device that delivers thrusts and powers. It was electromagnetic earthquake machine, it's called. Right.

Jamie
You could do it electromechanical, you could electro hydraulic, you know, just anything. But you have to be able to time the action. And so, okay, you think of it like you've got a device, you've got a cylinder, you've got a shaft coming out of it, and you got a hammer or you got a copper pad or whatever at the end of it, and you design it so that that shaft is going to push out at a particular frequency. So you go like a piston. Boom, boom, boom, boom.

And so you put it against a structure. That structure has a natural frequency, right? All structures do. You might hit one with a fist and don't think it would resonate at all. But if you go the first, the first strike may impart enough energy to move something.

Maybe a couple of angstroms, right? And so it's like very, very minute movement, right? The next one will move it a little more. Then you just keep pounding it. Just keep pounding it.

And as you pound it, the oscillations become bigger, the amplitude becomes bigger. And if you keep doing it, you can bring it, bring the whole thing down. So the key is to do it at a rate that is able to utilize the hydrogen well. Utilize. At this point, hydrogen has nothing to do with it.

I mean, this is just a totally separate subsystem. It doesn't care if there's hydrogen in. The pyramid, but this is this subsystem exists to vibrate the king's pyramid just. To connect the pyramid with the earth. Right.

Christopher Dunn
Okay, so it's vibrating the pyramid and the hydrogen in the queen's chamber. Now it makes its way into the king's chamber. Well, yes. I mean, it flows up through the ground, along the horizontal passage, through the grand gallery, and up into the king's chamber. So all this is connected?

Jamie
All that's connected. So the hydrogen goes up, it goes in the king's chamber, which is a phenomenal structure carved out of granite from 500 miles away. Massive stones, the biggest stones in the pyramid. Correct. Right.

Christopher Dunn
And so what happens with the vibration of the pyramid through this thing that's connected to the earth and subterranean chamber constantly hitting. Boom, boom, boom. Vibrating. The hydrogen flows into the great chamber. The king's chamber, or the king's chamber, is vibrating.

And then you have these shafts that come from the outside of the king's chamber into it. So what's happening there? Okay, well, let's go back to the subterranean. Subterranean. And let's talk about not what happens in the pyramid, but what is happening in the earth.

Jamie
And this is where we introduced Tesla technology and also the work of a NASA physicist called Friedman Freund. Just keep that thing up there. Chairman. So Friedman and Freund has did research on earthquake lines, and his objective was to try to determine if we could detect or if we could have an early warning system for earthquakes. And he was using NASA satellites to survey the earth and to observe for when earthquake lights show up.

And his.

His theory, it's not really a theory. It's a scientific fact, is that in the minerals in igneous rock, you have these positive charge carriers that when they are stressed, they will shoot to the surface. And the positive charge carriers are like, they call them holes. He describes it as a new physics, but it's kind of related to semiconductor physics, which is a little above my head, but still, he's talking about releasing electrons from deep within the earth. And those electrons, when they're stimulated to move, they move very, very quickly through the pyramid, I mean, through the earth, and they seek the highest point on the surface of the earth.

So you have Tesla on one side, and he's saying that if you could put an earthquake machine and just drive frequency into the planet, you might be able to release the stresses in the earth's crust and also reduce the possibility of an earthquake. I'm not saying eliminated entirely, but at. Least you would release some pressure. Yeah, you would relieve some pressure. And so, you know, with that, it's it becomes you putting these little bits of disparate information together and you combine them and you say, oh, maybe there is something here.

I think the biggest discovery, which is not talked about very much is Friedman Freund's discovery, the physics behind earthquake lights. And he actually experimented in his lab. You want that? He has a YouTube. There's a YouTube video with him.

He explains it a lot better. Do you want to pull that up and watch it? Well, we could. The problem is we'll get flagged. Oh, okay.

Christopher Dunn
Then uses YouTube video. Oh, okay. All right. So for those you know are listening, you can search freedom of Freud and just Freund. Frenefreund and Tedx talk in Christchurch, New Zealand.

Jamie
It's an excellent video. He explains it. So something is happening in this subterranean chamber. Yep. And this something is causing the pyramid and the earth around it to vibrate.

Christopher Dunn
And how is that affecting the hydrogen? And how is that affecting what's happening in the king's chamber? Okay, so you have a combination of. You got two different kinds of energy now flowing through the great pyramid. You've got electromagnetic energy, and you've also got mechanical energy.

Joe Rogan
Right? Right. Okay. So you've got the mechanical energy of this thing that's striking. You have the passages that are filled with chemicals that's causing the accumulation of hydrogen.

Christopher Dunn
The hydrogen is making its way into the king's chamber. And then what is the function of these passageways that go into the king's chamber from the outside? Well, the northern shaft carries a microwave signal. That signal passes through a amplifier, and then the signal enters into the chamber and collects the energy that has been accumulating in that space. It's like a laser or maser, you know?

So the chambers are collecting microwave energy from space. Yeah, it's going through them, and it's going. Excuse the passageways. Rather, it's going into the chamber, which is vibrating, and it's filled with hydrogen. So what is this reaction that happens when these two things meet?

Jamie
Okay, the action of that is the same as a laser, where you have the introduction of a photon in a laser. Right? That photon passes through an energized medium where the electrons are pumped to a higher energy state. Then that photon collects another photon and then another one, and it just builds and builds and builds and builds. But it does it at the speed of light, obviously.

And so that's why when you say you have a laser pointer, that process is what happens before the light appears on your slide or whatever. You press the button and it's kind of instant. Right. But there's a lot. Been a lot going on since when you press that button to create that laser light.

Christopher Dunn
I see. But it just happens. It just happens so fast. Right. So this king's chamber, when it has the hydrogen in it, you have the electrons, you have the vibration of the thing.

You have the microwaves coming in. What do you think this. You have microwaves coming in, but then you have power output. Power output? Yeah.

Jamie
So the power output is the southern shaft. And this is where there is another piece of key evidence. Jamie, could you show the slide that shows the opening of the southern shaft, please?

Christopher Dunn
It's crazy that this makes sense. Well, that's what I was trying to get. There's a bunch of slides in here that are really interesting, but we haven't got to them yet. Well, we got time. We'll get to those said, Joe.

Jamie
I don't know about me. You're doing great. I may pass out. Have another cup of coffee. Here's the northern shaft.

Oh, that's the northern shaft. Okay, wait a minute. Go. Go to the newest slides. I think there are better images on those.

Yeah, these were created back in the day. Okay, hold on. Go see? Okay, here, just up here. Okay.

Joe Rogan
Okay. All right. So my first book, I didn't have a really accurate description of the northern shift. Okay. And so since then, we got the cad drawings of Rudolph Gantenbrink when he did an examination.

Jamie
And he did a great, great job measuring everything, every angle, distance, all the way to the outside. And so this is taken from his cad drawing. And I just kind of made it a little more striking, clear. Or people could understand the complexity of that shaft. And also to point out some of the details that are pretty mind blowing.

You have four bends, 1234 before it goes into the king's chamber. Okay, now, where is that opening? It is at the quarter wave location. And in a resonant cavity, the highest amplitude could be found at a quarter wave. So it's like if you've got a standing wave in a resonant cavity, it's the quarter wave.

It's the quarter. The distance along the length of the cavity. That's where your amplitude. That's where your energy is the highest. So at least in this placement, it affirms your theory.

Christopher Dunn
That's where it would be. Right. But the other thing is, and this information, of course, is common. I mean, I've talked to people who worked on waveguides. Eric Wilson is very familiar with them.

Jamie
And he did a study of Gantenbrink's drawings. And he said, yeah, this, this, this. And he's pointing out different unusual features in the shaft that seem to appear in the design of modern waveguides. Because you have changes in dimension. You have these steps.

There is a, like a bump in an area and it's all to kind of massage, manipulate the beam as it comes into the pyramid. But then when it comes to entering into the great, the king's chamber, it goes through four bends. He said that's to be able to correct the beam so that when it does enter the pyramid, it is coherent and it goes in straight. Wow. So it's literally how you would design it.

The other thing. Yeah, the other thing is that the. And this is mind blowing and it will tell you a lot. There is another drawing of a planned view of that shaft. Jamie, hold on.

I think.

Wait a minute. Yeah, no, below the one with the. Below. That one directly. Yeah.

Nope, you passed it. Yeah, that one. Okay, so you know the commonly held theory about why those shaft exists is to ventilate the great pyramid, right? Mm hmm. Okay.

And the reason why they have those bends is for it to encircle the grand gallery so that it doesn't interfere or, you know, with the grand gallery. Now, if you're just going to ventilate that place, would you need that many bends? But look at the distance between the grand gallery wall and the north shaft. It is 13.6ft. Right.

If you take the level where the shaft enters the king's chamber and you take it straight past the grand gallery, you're looking at dimension e, which is 41 inches.

So it would clear the grand gallery. It didn't have to go through all those bends. Unless the wall blocks of the grand gallery were so large that they didn't want to interfere with them. And so does that suggest that the wall block thickness? Because we don't know how thick they are.

We don't know how thick they are, but that suggests that they are maybe just a little less than 13ft thick.

That is mind blowing. How heavy are those things? Yeah. So, so this, the way it's set up here now, especially when you're looking at it from this, it really does kind of make sense that this is a passageway for gases and energy. Like the way I'm looking.

Christopher Dunn
I mean, it looks like if you're looking at it like this, it looks like. Like a system. It's a machine. You were. You were pointing about.

You were talking about the southern shaft. Right. And that the southern shaft, there's an outside image yes. From the outside. Yeah.

Jamie
Could you show that one? Which image is it? Oh, it's coming, I think.

Well, I think you're going the wrong way, Jamie. There wasn't another picture the other way. I can google it if you want me to find it, but I don't. Know if it was. It's in there.

Go down.

Christopher Dunn
How many images are in here? Hundreds. How many do you want?

Jamie
Oh, hold on. Oh, wait a minute. No, just. Just above. Right.

It was right below the previous picture that we were talking about. Number 47. There. That's. No, just below that.

Yeah, there. Okay.

Okay, so the bottom left photograph is the opening of the southern shaft. I mean. Yeah. The southern shaft of the king's chamber that I took a photograph of it in 1986. Okay.

The one on the right I took in 1995. And that was after Rudolph Gantenbrink had installed the fan. But if you look at that opening, you see that you have like a bulbous opening. Almost looks like a microwave or an antenna. Right.

So it's not. It's not just a straight, simple shaft. It's like a catches mitt. Okay. Yeah.

Joe Rogan
Right. I mean, it's just all of these different features of this chamber that most. I mean, you would overlook them. Right. But you would design it that way if you were trying to catch microwaves.

Yeah. And so the southern shaft and the northern shaft have different functions. And you believe that the northern shaft is collecting the microwave energy? It is channeling the channel. The microwave, yeah.

Jamie
I mean, they would have some system on the outside to collect them. I mean, they may have a very large area actually collecting microwaves and feeding it to a reflector that is directed down the northern shaft. I mean, you know that there are eight sides to the pyramid, right. Each side it dips in so it doesn't go straight across. It dips in.

I'm not. I don't know where that reflector would have been positioned, but they could have been reflecting microwaves off the surface of the great pyramid to a reflector at a distance away. And that reflector. Channel it down the northern shaft. That would be one way to do it.

That'd be one way to do it, yeah. So either way, you believe that the northern shaft was somehow or another collecting microwave energy and the southern shaft, do you? What would they do with that energy? This is the question, like, well, that's. Yeah, that's the.

Your signal input. That that's what enters the king's chamber and stimulates emission of other photons. Right. But one list. Once this energy is connected right.

Christopher Dunn
Once it's. Once they have it collected, how are they disperse? How are they using it? How are they utilizing it?

Jamie
Your guess is as good as mine.

I can only imagine if they can dream up how to build this system, how they machined those precision vases, how they built the boxes and the serapeum, how they created the statues, and knowing that there is so much missing from that culture. Not only that, but knowing that you have to have something that you can use to make this in the first place. Yes. Like, what kind of material are you using to carry these things? There's so much missing.

You know, it's kind of like. All right, so you're saying that you use the pyramid to create energy, and with that energy, you do powered your power tools to build the great pyramid? That doesn't make any sense. Doesn't make any sense at all. Right, so there was probably some other methods that we're not aware of.

Yeah, obviously. I mean, you build us, you build any power plant, you're gonna have. You, you know, you're gonna have generators on site. They're gonna wheel them in. And also, this is not gonna be your first project.

Christopher Dunn
You're not gonna. You know, you already have some understanding of how this stuff works if you're making something at this scale. Well, I mean, our industrial development, 200 years of development. Imagine if it's 500 years of development. Or a thousand years from now.

Right, Jamie, go back to that image which showed the cross section that he said, we'll stop at this one. That. No, there was one earlier, but that's fine. Either one of them. There was another one that showed, like, sort of a cross section.

That's it. That's it. Thank you. So this gives us an understanding of what it would look like. Originally, there was a gold cap on the top, smooth limestone on the sides.

What do you think the function of that gold cap was? Because gold is used in electricity, in electronic components. It's a great conductor of electricity. Well, this is where you combined the Tesla's technology and also Freund's laboratory experiments. And in the laboratory, what Freund did is he got a granite slab a couple of few feet long, and he put it in a hydraulic press in order to test his theory that if igneous rock is put under pressure, it releases electrons.

Jamie
So he wanted to test that, and he set the granite up in his concrete press. I mean, concrete press, hydraulic press. And then he ran a wire through an oscilloscope and then attached it to a copper cap on the other end. Of the granite. So there has to be some kind of a connection.

So you got electrons moving, you got positive charge carriers shooting through the granite, and then they're handshaking at the end with the negative electrons, and everybody does a happy dance and fires up their microwaves. Just kidding. But that is seriously. And then you combine that with Tesla and his proposal to build a system where you can transmit electricity wirelessly without wires, through the air, through. Through the earth.

And he built the Waldencliff tower, which was like a, you know, a structure that would radiate that power. So that's the inspiration for this image right here. So the idea would be that this whole thing would be emitting wireless electricity. Yes. And so that they would be able to utilize that somehow, like Tesla had theorized.

Tesla. We actually implemented it. Right. In tests. Right?

Yeah. I mean, Tesla power, Tesla. Tesla cars, too, probably. So have you debated anyone about this, as any egyptologist or any person who doesn't agree with your theory sat down with you and tried to pick it apart? I am not a fan of debates myself.

I mean, I know it's good theater and some people are really good at it.

And you were able to demonstrate that the other week. But I'm not a big fan of them. I'm not sure, as far as scientists go or science or, you know, putting work out there for examination by your peers. I'm not sure that it is helpful to, you know, set up a shouting match or a.

Christopher Dunn
But I'm just interested to see what other people have to think about your theory because this is really fascinating to me. I'm looking at all this, and I'm like, wow, this makes so much more sense than having this thing there as just a tomb for a dead guy, which there's not a lot of evidence that that's the case because they've never actually found. No, no. I mean, you know, if you ask me what was. Well, Chris, what.

Jamie
What the hell were you thinking when you came up? What were you thinking? You know, I mean, and that. That is actually a key question because, you know, if you are, you're an examiner or if you are pleading you, something or somebody is challenging you, what your state of mind was when something happened, an event happened. What was your state of mind at the time is important, and my state of mind at the time was the tomb theory is a dead theory.

I don't accept it. The pyramid, because of its design, its features, its precision, it looked like a machine. Perhaps it's a machine. And if it is a machine, how did the machine operate. So that's basically what my state of mind was.

And the evidence that I was looking at was evidence of a level of sophistication and structure that actually demonstrated the highest level state of the art that that civilization or that that culture produced, or any culture, any culture. And, and it hasn't been replicated since. How is that possible? How is it possible? The whole thing is so impossible.

Christopher Dunn
Like, if you wanted to have the best evidence that we don't know shit, you've got it. You got it right there. It's like, how much do we know about what they knew, if they could make that? Yeah. People ask me, well, why haven't you built a model?

Jamie
And I was like, you don't understand, because I couldn't even afford one of the blocks that goes into the king's chamber, let alone a thousand of them. And also, like, how much time would it take you to build that? Good lord. Not only that, it's like, you know, if you're gonna, if you're gonna replicate. I was asked that question when I was in Egypt in 2021, and I was with Hamada Anwar and Doctor Hayne Halal, who used to be the minister of science and higher education, both extremely, extremely good guys, and they are both on the Scampiramid mission team.

So I had a meeting with them, and I gave my book to Doctor Halal, and Hamada already had one. He'd arranged the meeting. I gave my book to Hailey Alal, and I described it briefly, and he asked me a question I never thought I would hear, Egypt. And he says, well, could the great pyramid be restored and function as you envisioned that it did? And I was like, I pondered that question before, and I thought, I can't see that happening.

You know, I mean, if you, if you were going to, if you're going to replicate it or create another one, I would do another one. Because of the political climate, there is so much focus on the great pyramid, and everybody who's focused on it is an expert, and most of them have YouTube channels.

So you have a hyper focus on that area. I mean, just, just the simple thing, like, okay, we're going to recover the third pyramid, we're going to restore it, we're going to recover it, and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I mean, it was a whole shit storm that came after that. I mean, they finally killed the project because I saw. Do you think that it's good they killed the project?

Christopher Dunn
I mean, isn't it good to leave that stuff in the state in which we found it. I think, you know, people with the best of intentions and working with the information that they have can make mistakes. And a lot of times, and I've made them myself a lot of times, it's because I am making decisions not having sufficient information. Right. So it's kind of like they were.

Jamie
He was the new, the new chief of the Supreme Council of antiquities, the director, chairman of the Supreme Council of antiquities. And so he was, he had a gentleman who was going to help him restore the, the third pyramid. And so he goes out and calls a press conference and tells everybody what they're going to do. And then there was a firestorm of criticism that came and just flooded in.

And then finally the, I think it was Zahi Hawass who pulled his influence to shut the project down and. And then, so they backed up on it. But, you know, if he had touched all the bases, I mean, you just never know because relationships in any culture, you don't understand them. You know, you don't know who knows who is related to who. Right.

You know, you got all these. All this activity. But. But I think people, rightly so, were upset at the idea of covering that thing. Just like they covered up the pause of the sphinx.

Christopher Dunn
Well, it wasn't very controversial. Right. Not necessarily covering it, but restoring it. Restoring it. But you are covering it.

Right, because you're doing well. You're modern human. You're trying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're.

You're ruining what is left, because what in the state that it is, it represents the erosion and the earthquakes, the looting of the limestone. This is what it is. So this is. Yeah, but to cover it up with 2024 work seems gross. Right.

Jamie
And that's what a lot of people think, is that it is. It is not respecting history or, you know. Right. So if they did that with the great pyramid and covered the whole thing. Well, I mean.

Yeah. I mean, that. That would certainly be more possible than building another one. Yeah, well, you would certainly. It's a lot easier.

You won't have to quarry as much. Limestone, not even close. So if they did that, let's just imagine a world where people say, hey, we're going to do this, but we could always reverse it. We're not going to do any permanent damage to the pyramid, but it's possible to restore it to the exact state and find out if this theory is correct. Yeah, but how do you do that?

I mean, I don't think you would have to have a lot more research and evidence produced to convince people to invest so much money, right? Because, I mean, this is a process, okay? The Igiza power plant and Giza, the Tesla connection, it's a process, right? And I'm pretty much at the end of. Of that process.

So I put. You put it out in the universe, and then other people are picking it up, like Ahmed Adley, you know, Ashraf Scubini at Chiron University. But let's. Let's imagine we enter into a world where people say, you know what? It's better if we know.

Christopher Dunn
And there's only one way to know, and it's possible to do so. Let's cover that thing the way it was done before. Let's put a gold cap on it. Let's follow the plans as if this is a power plant, right? But first you have to qualify, verify all the subs, all the systems, the subsystems and their function.

Jamie
And it's complicated. And would you qualify that? Could it be more possible today through. The AI you would need. Well, whoever is in control of the AI, who's driving.

Joe Rogan
Right. But let's look at best case scenario. Let's pretend there's some objective scientists that are not ideologically driven at all, and they're in control of this AI and they utilize it the exact way we would like it to be utilized. What I would love is for some PhD student to take on as a dissertation project the acoustic modeling of the interior of the great pyramid. Get all the dimensions, scan everything, find out all the dimensions, what they are, and then you start to simulate the behavior of the movement of sound within that space.

Jamie
I mean, we have, you know, we're using human instruments to detect resonance and report on the vibrations and how they feel when they hear it. And, you know, there's a lot of, like, magical experiences that are happening. But the magic, I mean, if you. If you've ever read Arthur C. Clarke is kind of like sufficiently advanced technology is first seen as magic, right?

So if you have an alien race and they have sufficiently advanced technology, you would look at it as magic. Right? Our cell phones, sure. If they appeared in our culture a hundred years ago. Magic.

Magic. Yeah, yeah. People wouldn't know what to do with them. And if this culture had something that's not where we are, but 500 years more advanced than us, which is why they were able to create something like that. Right.

Christopher Dunn
I mean, it looks like magic. I talk about the recent disclosure by the ODI on the uaps in here. Really? Yeah. Think they're connected as an example.

Jamie
As an example of what is possible physically. Because if you consider that those uaps can descend from 80,000ft to sea level in a few seconds. The G forces that they would pull on a 90 degree turn would be like 1000 G's would destroy any of our craft and the people inside it. If it was even possible to make such a turn, which is not. We don't have anything to match it.

And then you see how they function. You see, what can we observe on how they are propelled? You know, on f 16, they've got afterburners. And we see these afterburners kick on and fire belching out the back. Those uaps, they just seem to have some kind of aura around them.

And they defeat gravity and move through space in a way that appears like magic. But sufficiently advanced technology would be magical, right? Almost less impressive than a cell phone. Yeah. Right.

Christopher Dunn
Because all it's doing is flying around my cell phone is sending instantaneous video to the other side of the world. Well, that little UAP could be doing the same. Yeah, but except to other planets, right? We just don't see. Or the mothership, which is.

Or language. We don't see it. It might be american. It's all science fiction. Right?

I really wonder how much of that stuff is ours, how much of that stuff is. Black ops projects, they've been. You don't think so? No. You think it's from somewhere else?

Jamie
I mean, I can't prove where it's from, but if it is from somewhere else, I'd like to follow it home. You and me both. I'd like to. I'd like to see the. I'd like to observe the civilization and the culture that created.

Go in the manufacturing plants. Hey, how are you making this? And, you know, say, okay, where are you getting your power from? I don't see any, you know, train cars carrying tons of coal and belching chimneys out in the distance. Right.

Christopher Dunn
Well, if there's a time machine, if there was ever a time machine, I've always said if I could go back to one place, it would be I'd go back to Africa. When they were doing that, I'd go to Egypt. What were you doing? For sure, what were you doing? How are you guys doing this?

What the hell is going on over here? And where did it all go? I mean, I know the burning of the library of Alexandria. They lost so much, we have no idea, like, what was in there and what knowledge they had preserved. So now it's all lost.

And if you're correct, and if they really did have some sort of a machine that makes electricity that to this day, when we're. I mean, you want renewable electricity? There you go, kids. Right? It's right there.

And somehow or another, someone did it 4500 years ago. How, how. What did you guys do? And how. How are you so much more advanced than all the other humans on earth?

I'm so much more. I'm digging through an article right now of some audio engineers that got access to the great pyramid. Like they took in a bunch of high powered speakers and whatnot. Very first thing this guy recognized here, he says he noticed that there's a very specific, precise frequency when the wind blows across some of the air shafts. It's f sharp.

Jamie
Yeah. And that appears in the, I think Tom Danley, who was a NASA engineer and he was on a team and did acoustic testings inside the great pyramid. He measured the frequencies in the king's chamber and reported that even with all his equipment turned off, the king's chamber was still vibrating. And he actually go back chamber. Look at this right here.

Christopher Dunn
It says, ancient egyptian texts indicate that this f sharp was the resonant harmonic center of planet Earth. Yes. Yeah. That's the connection. That's the seismic connection.

The f hash is also, coincidentally, it says in question marks the tuning reference for the sacred flutes of many north american shamans. Yeah. The hope is. Yeah, so the f sharp is very important. It's also, it's also found in human DNA.

Jamie
And there was a doctor, David Deamer, who actually mapped the frequencies of DNA. As an engineer, I will note 16 hz is just below the human threshold of hearing. The best you can hear is 20. Interesting. Can dogs hear that, Carl?

Christopher Dunn
Hear that? They're known for hearing higher. I suppose they could probably hear lower too. Dad. What is this?

Jamie
Dad?

In around 2003, I was contacted by a very talented physicist. His name is Dustin Kerr. You could google Dustin Kerr if you like. He got his PhD at Cornell University and his thesis, dissertation was actually creating a nano guitar. Well, yeah, the nano guitar.

The strings are just about 100 atoms wide. Whoa. And you have to have a tunneling electron microscope to be able to see it. And so anyway, he contacted me and I was really impressed with this guy. How would you strum that guitar with laser light?

Christopher Dunn
Whoa, whoa. It's two microns. Oh my God. That, that scale is two micron. Yeah.

Wow. That's bananas. And so you used a laser to. Play this guitar you would need. Yeah.

Jamie
I mean, just a very, very subtle laser which, you know, is like micro heat. Expand, expand the strings and you would, you would get. They would vibrate but you couldn't hear it, of course, right? Of course. No way.

Joe Rogan
Right. But it exists. So the frequency that's in the great chamber is below the threshold for humans to hear. Yeah, it's infrasonic. Right.

Christopher Dunn
But if this machine was running, it would probably be a different frequency, right? All those frequencies would be playing a part, plus more, I would say. And besides his nano guitar, when we were communicating, Doctor Carr did a model. Model the finite element analysis of the great pyramid. And guess what?

Joe Rogan
What? 16 hz showed up in that. Wow. Fascinating. So, wow.

Christopher Dunn
The whole thing is just so crazy. It blows your mind. It really does. There's so many questions and so many places to take it to. The real question is like, how did they do it?

Where did they learn all this stuff from? And did they implement this somewhere else? Is this the only power plant they ever created? The other pyramids, do they have similar function? I think they're fundamentally, perhaps they, the science of tapping into or harvesting electrons through stimulating movement in the lithosphere was probably known and that knowledge was advanced and developed.

Joe Rogan
Right. But if you have with this design what you believe, the great pyramid, how it was used as a power plant, what do you think is going on with the other two pyramids that are near it? Same thing, except they have different interior designs. They're all part of the system, so. Oh, so it's all connected.

Christopher Dunn
All three of them are connected somehow. Yeah. And have you observed similar situations in those smaller pyramids where it seems like they would be utilized in a similar fashion? Is there shafts and. No, I just think, you know, if you are, if you are considering it as a, as a project, okay, so you design a project, you propose a project, you gather the resources to complete the project, you describe it to, you know, your investors.

Jamie
I mean, ultimately it's about follow the money. How much is it going to cost and what's the return on investment until you have. Okay, I want to build a great pyramid and we're going to have all this, you know, we're going to have all this energy, and I'll build another few pyramids around it and they'll just be tourist attractions. No, right. No, no.

I mean, if you've got the whole plateau and the lithosphere beneath it. I mean, Freund said that the lithosphere is actually a giant battery. It can, it could turn into a giant battery if it is stimulated. Right, right. And so if you've got that condition, you got all that potential energy under your feet, all you've got to do is shake it a little bit, you know, and just go, hey, send me a few more electrons, and.

And you build a system on the surface. Perhaps you survey the area, just like, you know, NASA satellites surveyed the area for freedom of pride. And you build a pulse generator deep under the Giza plateau, and you start that system up, and you survey the area, and you look for the hotspots where the maximum number of electrons are coming through from the lithosphere. And then you say, okay, we'll build a pyramid there. Build one there.

We'll build one there. Those are your hotspots. You know you got a hotspot in Texas, right? Oh, really? Yeah.

Marfa, Martha, Texas. What is it? It's a town, I think you. Oh, no, I know. I know Marfa.

But how's it a hotspot, Martha? Lights. Have you heard of those? No. Yeah, pull up the Marfa lights.

Christopher Dunn
Is it like ball lightning? No, it's kind of like a light show. Really? Yeah, it's very famous, and it's from the electronics in Austin, obviously. Well, I know, Martha.

I have a friend who has a house in Marfa. Really? Yeah, he loves it there. So it's like a kind of an artist community, right? Probably the energies, right?

Joe Rogan
Mm hmm. Like Sedona, right? Yeah. That's where all the weirdos go. Yeah, I'm one of those weirdos.

Jamie
I can't afford to live there. Oh, it's gorgeous place. Sedona's gorgeous. Gorgeous. So what is this?

Carl
So there's this interview. I think I'm imagining what they're trying to say here without listening to everything. What? So these lights. What's going on with these lights?

Jamie
What is this? It's a marvel. I interview on the marvellites. Oh, okay. Okay.

Christopher Dunn
I don't know exactly. When you see those things flying around the sky, what are they? Is that like ball lightning? Yeah, I mean, it's the electrons coming from the earth and ionizing the air. It says, according to Judith, the Marfa lights of West Texas have been called many names over the years, such as ghost lights, weird lights, strange lights, car lights, mystery lights, or Chianti lights.

My favorite place from which to view the lights is a widened shoulder on Highway 90, about 9 miles east of Marfa. The lights are almost. Are most often reported at distant spots of brightness, distinguishable from branch lights and automotive headlights on 67. So primarily distinguished by their aberrant movements. So these things just sort of fly around.

The first historical record of the Marfa lights was 1883, when a young cowhand Robert Reed Ellison saw a flickering light while he was driving cattle through the paisano pass and wondered if there was a campfire of the apache. Other settlers told him they often saw the lights, but when they investigated, they found no ashes or evidence of a campsite. So what is happening again with these lights? How is it? It's electrons going through the earth.

Jamie
If you consider Freund's theory, from the Freund effect, it's the release of positive charge carriers from the lithosphere shooting up to the surface and ionizing the air. Ah, okay. And so it creates a light that way. So it creates a light that way. A lot of people have speculated that it could be like piezoelectric activity in quartz bearing rock.

But Rhine doesn't support that idea, I don't think. But it would sort of support this theory that if you could find places where that is happening naturally, like Marfa, and you establish the pyramid there. You had one other thing that you had just said to me when we took a break that there was some evidence that you knew about this dibble Hancock debate that had come to light. Oh, yeah. That was interesting.

A fellow researcher, Manu Seifaday, he wrote the book under the sphinx. He had posted on Facebook a paper that had been published. I think the discussion was the existence of industrial activity during the ice age. Right. Okay.

And so, you know, I talked to him and he sent me several papers where other studies have been done and that show the same kind of markers that you see in that period of time in the paper that he presented on the podcast. So, you know, everybody should have a chance to fix their mistakes. Right? They are. Could you pull them up, Jamie, and we could just go through them and then they would be on record.

Christopher Dunn
Okay, so what is wrong? So what you're saying is that. What he was saying is that the evidence of industrialization only occurs after a specific time in the core samples. Right. There's no evidence of them in the ice age.

And is this lead, what is it in? Right, right. So, I mean, I. This is out of my wheelhouse, right? I am not an expert, but this.

Gentleman posted this in response. I'm just saying that if there is, you know, another body of evidence or other papers that have been conducted that where research has been conducted that goes further back into the past, in the period of time that Dibble's paper deals with, then they should be introduced into the record. And how far in the past did these go? 150,000 years. And how far in the past did the ones that Dibble introduced.

Joe Rogan
Go. I think it was about between 1000 BC, 1000 AD or something. It was just like a. A narrow window. Narrow window.

Christopher Dunn
Okay, so did you find it, Jamie? Well, I have. I don't have Glenn's stuff. Cause that was on his computer. Well, there.

Jamie
His paper. His paper is. The paper that he referenced is in there. The one that you brought? Yeah.

Carl
Okay, well, I have then what? I have what you brought. This is what you have. That's not the one that he presented. I don't know which one that was.

Jamie
It was the 2000. I think it was a 2018.

Yeah, just. I mean, just pull them up.

Christopher Dunn
Atmospheric lead in antarctic ice during the climactic cycle. Yeah. Is that it? That's one of them. I don't think it's the one that dibble presented, but what are the one.

The one that you're presenting? The one that you. The one that manu sent me. Let's see what she's. That one.

Jamie
See that one? I think it goes back 149,000 years. So. Yeah, just send it. Just.

Oh, this is the one. Yeah, this is the one. I think that. What date is on that? I don't know.

Carl
2018, maybe 20. Yeah, I think it's 28. Right. So it said the. The title of this is for anybody who wants to find it is lead pollution recorded in Greenland ice indicates european emissions tracked plagues, wars, and imperial expansion during antiquity.

Joe Rogan
Right. Okay. Okay. So if you look up the other papers, they treat a different period of time, and when you go back to the ice age, you do find.

The. Same kind of evidence. Is that what this paper is showing? This is. Which one is this the same?

Christopher Dunn
This is the one we were just looking at. Oh, no, this is. This is that short time period. So 1100 BC to 800. This is the one that dibble presented then.

Jamie
Yeah. Okay, so what's the one that you're presenting? I'm not presenting, but what was the. One that you referenced? The ones that I.

That were sent to me. Okay, where are those? They're on. They're in the folder, Jamie. And what are.

Christopher Dunn
What is that one called? Okay, go down to the next one. I believe it's this one, right where it says highlighted, and it says, like, the highlighting area. Yeah, I mean. Okay.

Jamie
I think they're all. They're all kind of similar. Yeah, well, the two. The first two. You sent me five things.

Carl
The first two are the same. It's just this. This is highlighted. Oh, I see. Yeah.

Jamie
Okay. Okay, let's go to that and make it a little bigger. I sent them to you. They're on there as they were sent to me. So.

Carl
So it says very low during the holocene era, probably during the last interglacial and part of the last ice age. They were very high during the last glacial maximum and at the end of the penultimate. I love that word. Penultimate. I love that word, don't you?

Christopher Dunn
It's a great word. Yeah. So the concentrations were high of lead during the ice age. It's saying. Yeah.

So this does counter what he was saying. Seems to. Okay, but I'm not the expert. I mean, I. I understand what you're.

Saying, but this goes far, far back past when he was talking about. So the possibility could be that what Graham was saying might actually have some weight to it, that there was a highly advanced civilization before the ice age and that it went away. And then when you see lead in the future, you're just seeing sort of a re understanding of this process. That's one way to put it. That could be, yeah.

Jamie
And it doesn't have to be a really highly advanced civilization like ours. It just means that there is industrial activity, whatever that shape or form that takes. Well, the real fascinating thing is if the egyptians had figured out how to generate power without any damage to the environment, which is really wild. We haven't yet. No, but if they figured that out with that great pyramid, that process is how they generated electricity.

Christopher Dunn
I mean, that's about as green as you're ever going to get. I mean, pretty amazing. Yeah. Here's a little factoid for you. What do you know?

Jamie
In 2021, they quarried enough coal by weight to build a pyramid 76 times bigger than the great pyramid. Wow. Whoa. So we know how to extract. Extract rock.

Joe Rogan
Yeah. Right. Collectively, at least. Yeah, yeah. Especially in China.

Right? Oh, yeah. Which is hilarious. Very efficient. They're not.

Christopher Dunn
Not just that. They're really good at making coal plants. They got hundreds of new ones opening up. Yeah, well, we're over here freaking out. Anything else before we get out of here?

Jamie, you said that there was a couple other slides you thought were really interesting. We kind of ended up getting to them. I was kind of really curious what that fan was all about, but he described what I had about someone. There was one other thing I would like to address, if you don't mind. Okay, so the other thing that Doctor Dibble mentioned was when you raised the question about the core drilling.

Joe Rogan
Right, right. And Doctor Dibble said that. Well, that's been debunked. I'm just paraphrasing now. That's been been debunked.

Jamie
And he referenced two sources. He referenced scientists against myth and world of antiquity. Okay, so scientists, this is where, you know, if you don't give it enough information, people will fill in the gaps. You know, of course, you leave a vacuum. Engineers are very well known for leaving all kinds of vacuums.

They don't explain everything completely because they assume everybody knows it. Because they know it. Right. And so it's the simplest thing. And basically, scientists against Smith, they sent me their paper on the methods that they used, which contradicted my methods.

And what they did is they went to. They got these photographs, two dimensional photographs of the petrichor, and they rejected the method that I used, which was just a simple string cotton thread with magnification. With magnification. And with the artifact in my hand. So you've got best evidence in your hand and against evidence secondhand.

We taken with photographs. So what's wrong? What is the problem with that? And when I saw what method they used, I didn't take it seriously. Perhaps I should.

And then we won't be here talking about it, but I didn't take it seriously. And it's like it kind of failed on its face just after the first two pages. Plus, it was very insulting and mocking. Right. Not very professional.

But basically what they did is they took a 2d photograph of a 3d cone. Okay, I want to show you two things. This is a flat blank, and this is a cone. Okay? So aerospace manufacturing engineers know all about how.

How cones are made, and they know how to measure them, and they know how to transmit geometric data to the customer. Right. Our customers would never accept a 2d photograph of a 3d object as evidence of geometric accuracy or precision. I mean, a 3d camera with, you know, like a scanner or something like that, but just a simple two dimensional photo, it wouldn't work. Right.

Christopher Dunn
Too limited. Too limited. But what happens to the. What happens to the evidence when you take a. A 2d photograph?

Jamie
I'll show you.

You have a corruption of the evidence right away.

What happens with a 2d photograph taken a 3d object? You can go through these series of cones that are made. This is a. A cone that has horizontal lines around it. Right.

And you can see that they're horizontal. So you can assume, okay, you take it. I took a 2d photograph of this. Okay. I took a 2d photograph of that, and then I brought it into my computer.

But there are. There are some things that happen to the arc length, the arc length on the original. If you take a 2d photograph, you are using the chord length as the arc length. You got all that on camera, Jimmy? Is it on both cameras?

The other one. Pick it up. Oh, okay. Right. But there's another problem with it.

And it's not just geometry. Well, ultimately, it's geometry, but it's more. More involved with how the eye works and how a camera functions, and that's the lens. And basically, what you're doing is you're capturing an image and cone. And if you focus your camera here.

Right, the lines here curve that way, the lines down here curve this way. Okay. Right. So you take those and you lay them out flat. You've got corrupted evidence.

You project those images onto a cone in the computer, and this is what happens. You've got a bunch of wavy lines. Did you get that? Which indicates that it's a spiral. No, it doesn't.

This is not to prove that it's a spiral. This is to prove that the evidence that they have produced is not the best evidence. Right. Because it's only two dimensional. To really get the.

Christopher Dunn
To refute your evidence, they should look at the thing and measure it accurately, scan it. But it also. It's too limited. It also describes the state of mind of the investigators who are working on this, and that is, they are driving to a conclusion that is directly opposite to mine, so they're not acting in good faith.

Jamie
If you read a scientific paper or if you are working on a scientific project, if you're in school or if you're anywhere. And so you prepare your report, you publish your report, you describe the methods that you use and the tools that you use, how you did it, and then you publish your results. I did that. And then somebody comes along behind you, and they say, well, I want to see that for myself. That's what you call falsification process, where, you know, a science, any theory, it has to be falsifiable.

So somebody's. If they confide anything wrong with what you did, then, you know, they have to follow the same steps you did, right to the letter. Right. But they didn't do that. They didn't do that, clearly.

Christopher Dunn
And also, they didn't have access to the actual physical object because it's. It doesn't indicate that they did. They were just the only way you could really test. They were just drawing down photographs from the Internet. So they were just trying to debunk it.

Jamie
Exactly. And they're doing. And what they're doing is silly, but. Then you have a college professor who scoops up all that research, and they become cited sources in their work. Well, he probably was just respecting their work and thinking that your work is one of those alternative guys that's not.

Christopher Dunn
Not a part of the system, not a part of the academic system. And so he just, and he obviously he works with seeds and things along those lines. That's his area of archaeology. So he trusts the other. Yeah, yeah.

Jamie
You know, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that, but what he said is his own, you know. Right. You're just saying that the sources of. I'm just saying that.

I mean, he was, he was certainly well schooled and he had the answers to some of these mysteries. Right. And he had been given information and pretty much he reeled it out when the question was raised. The other thing that I thought of after the fact, and we actually kind of covered it, but I never connected the dots, was that one of the things that we were talking about when we were talking about Gobekli Tepe? Gobekli Tepe was created by these people that didn't need agriculture because the place they lived was so bountiful.

Christopher Dunn
Yeah, but what if they just didn't, what if agriculture to them wasn't plants? What if agriculture was animal agriculture and they fed their animals with wild plants? If the wild plants were in such abundance that they could just go out and chop down the wild plants and use them to feed their animals, that's still agriculture, but it's not plant agriculture. Yeah, so that's the difference. I forgot that while it was happening, and then afterwards I was like, ah, why don't I connect those dots?

Because Gobekli Tepe, no one is disputing the time period of it. It's 11,000 years ago, right? That's when it was covered intentionally, 11,000 years ago. So no one's disputing that. But that puts it into the term of pre agriculture.

And so what he was saying was that maybe where they lived was so bountiful with food that they didn't need agriculture at the time. Possible. But also, are we only thinking of agriculture as plant agriculture? And do we have to grow plants in an agricultural setting to feed animals? Well, doesn't that entirely depend on how we're raising these animals?

Because if these animals are free ranging and you have an enormous area, then no. All right, then you could harvest them out free ranging. You could have agriculture in terms of animals and you could have these animals that you're farming, you're just farming them with wild plants. And if you could do that for Gobekli tepe, which is what they're saying, and at least they're saying that either they just hunted all the animals that were around. There were so many animals around them, they could hunt them very easily to feed everybody so they'd have enough resources to build this thing.

Or maybe they had some kind of agriculture in terms of animal agriculture, but just hadn't planted things. Yeah. Or hadn't had the need to plant things if they're living in such abundance. Yeah. I don't know.

Jamie
I don't know. It's a good question, though. It is a good question. Yeah. All of it is good questions.

All these good questions. Citizens coming forward and asking, raising their hands and saying, oh, wait a minute. What about this? What about this? And that's what you've done.

Christopher Dunn
And listen, I think you've done an amazing job of it. And the way you explained it today, I really appreciate it. It's great for a person like myself to be able to ask a person like you questions and get to the heart of how this whole thing would work. And I think you laid it out amazingly. It's such a fascinating subject and so many mysteries and so many questions.

And I just want to thank you for putting in so much time and having so much energy of your life dedicated to trying to figure this thing out. Yeah. All right. Can I go take a nap now? Yes, you can go take a nap.

You did great. Tell everybody about your books, though, so you get them. So anyway, yeah, we've got, the first one was the Giza power plant. Okay. Technologies of ancient Egypt.

And then the newest one is. What does it say on that one? Giza, the Tesla. Can they see it from there? Yeah.

Joe Rogan
Okay. Cool. Geese with Tesla connection. All right. And those are available now.

Jamie
Acoustical science and harvesting of clean energy. All right, well, thank you, sir. I really appreciate you coming here. I really enjoyed it, and it's. You're doing a great service.

You should give those to Elon Musk. Why? He needs them. Well, if he's going to build electric cars, he's going to need electricity for him. All right, I'll let him know.

Christopher Dunn
I love that. All right, thank you.

#2142 - Christopher Dunn

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1: Background and Introduction

2: Theories on Ancient Machining

3: Debating Conventional Views

4: Technical Descriptions and Comparisons

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