Amy Liu | How a Battle with Eczema Led to Tower 28

This episode explores how Amy Liu's personal struggles with eczema inspired her to create Tower 28, a beauty brand focusing on clean and sensitive skin-friendly products.

1. Amy's entrepreneurial spirit was influenced by her father's passion for his work, despite his warnings against the hardships of entrepreneurship.
2. The contrast between her parents' careers taught Amy the importance of finding work that is both fulfilling and passion-driven.
3. Amy's struggle with eczema and the lack of suitable beauty products in the market led her to create Tower 28.
4. Amy emphasizes the significance of creating products that are safe for sensitive skin, which has become a cornerstone of her brand.
5. The discussion highlights the challenges of launching and scaling a beauty brand in a competitive market.

1: Early Influences

Amy discusses her childhood and early influences, including her parents' contrasting careers and her upbringing in California. Amy Liu: "Growing up, I saw my dad's passion for his work and knew I wanted that for myself, even though he advised against the hardships of entrepreneurship."

2: Career Path and Shift

Amy talks about her linear career path initially in consulting and how her desire for more fulfilling work led her to the beauty industry. Amy Liu: "I was always searching for work that felt as passionate as what I saw in my dad."

3: Founding Tower 28

This chapter focuses on the inception of Tower 28, from the idea sparked by Amy's personal skincare struggles to the development of the brand. Amy Liu: "My own battle with eczema was a key motivator in starting Tower 28. I wanted to create products that I couldn't find in the market."

4: Challenges and Successes

Amy discusses the hurdles she faced in the beauty industry and the successes that followed the brand's commitment to clean, inclusive products. Amy Liu: "Facing industry challenges head-on and sticking to our brand's mission has been crucial for our success."

• Consider how personal challenges can be turned into business opportunities.
• Seek fulfilling work that aligns with personal passions and values.
• Embrace the entrepreneurial journey despite potential hardships.
• Focus on creating products that address unmet needs in the market.
• Maintain persistence and adaptability when facing industry challenges.

For over 15 years, Amy Liu worked as a beauty executive at some of the fastest-growing prestige companies, including Smashbox, Kate Somerville, and Josie Maran Cosmetics. But as a longtime eczema sufferer, she couldn’t even enjoy the best part of working in the beauty industry: trying out all the products!

Even the clean alternatives were super expensive or too clinical, like they were coming straight from the doctor’s office. Amy saw this white space as an opportunity and set out to create Tower 28, a beauty company inclusive of all skin tones, skin types, budgets, and beauty philosophies.

Tower 28 is the first beauty brand that’s 100% clean, vegan, and free of every known skin irritant. Everything is rigorously dermatologist and allergy-tested (formulas adhere strictly to the National Eczema Association’s guidelines).



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Unidentified Speaker
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Amy Liu, welcome to the show. Hi. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here. You know, you've obviously built an incredible company and had an incredible career in beauty.

But I want to kind of take it back to Amy the person and talk about your early days a little bit. Cause I think it really sets the tone for how you ended up, where you ended up. So tell me a little bit about where you grew up, what young Amy was like. What did you enjoy doing? Yeah, so I was born in Minnesota.

Amy Liu
My parents immigrated from Taiwan. I was born in Minnesota, grew up in, I would say inland La mostly. So they moved at some point when I was, like, five years old. And so I very much feel like I am asian American, and I very much feel like a californian in a big way. Growing up, I had two, obviously parents, a mom and a dad.

My mom had a job that was, she was an auditor. And honestly, I still don't really know what that means, but she left at the same time every day, came home at the same time every day. She never talked about her job. Yep. Did she work for, like, the IR's or the city?

No, she worked for, like, you know, Kaiser Permanente and SoCal Edison and Bank of America and, like, really large corporate companies. But it just never felt like it was like, her passion. You know, it just, it seemed like something that she did. And on the flip side of that, I had my dad, who was and is an entrepreneur. He's a property developer.

And it's funny because he would tell you. So he was very much an entrepreneur and very, so passionate about what he did. Like, I remember on the weekends, we would go. He did a lot of commercial real estate development, but small, like, three story buildings, or he would do, like, small scale condo developments. And on the weekends, we would go look at spec houses, and, you know, that's if we would go to Vegas.

And he would be, like, looking at the elevator, like he was so into what he did, but I would. What was his story? Like, did he just start the business? Kind of, when he moved here? So he came here for a graduate school.

He went to University of Illinois, and he got graduate degrees in, like, architectural, architecture, engineering, et cetera. And what he would tell you is that he was an entrepreneur, but that he did it because he had to. He wasn't doing it because he thought it was so sexy and exciting. Yeah. Back then, it was, like, born out of necessity, not.

Well, it was born out of necessity, especially as an immigrant, right, where English was a second language, and he didn't feel like he could kind of make it in the corporate world on his own, and so just, like, in a company environment. So instead, he became an entrepreneur. But then, even then, he felt pretty relegated to working with basically other chinese people because English was his second language and he was successful. But then at some point, he felt like he hit a ceiling here. And he actually, since the nineties, since I was in high school, he moved to China, and so now he lives in China, and he continued his career here because he really felt like he could only do so much here.

And so it's funny because when I growing up, I always thought, like, I want to do what he's doing. He's so into it. Like, he's so invested, not in the property development way. Like, I've never wanted to be an architect, but just I wanted to feel that sense of passion and that sense of every day you wake up and, like, this is what you're doing. You're so excited.

Unidentified Speaker
That flow state. That flow state that I really felt like I watched him have, but at the same time, he was like, don't do this. This is too hard. Go work for someone else and have, like, a cushy life and. And not have it be.

Amy Liu
So he figured, like, oh. Cause you're growing up here and all that stuff, you might be a little bit more, you know, it might be a little bit easier on you to, like. I mean, I feel like every. Every immigrant story, right, is where your parents move here because they want you to have a better life than the one that they had. And I think he felt like he had worked really hard to be able to, like, listen, I was lucky he paid for me to go to college and that I could go get, like, a nice job and not have to work so hard.

And so I did that. I graduated from UCSD. I got a job. My first job was in consulting, which was at Accenture. I studied economics.

Unidentified Speaker
What was the thought behind that? Like, you might go work in, like, banking or something? No, I think, honestly, my path was really linear at first, and it was really, like, I would say I was just trying not to make wrong decisions. Yeah. I wasn't necessarily trying to make right ones.

Amy Liu
I just was so worried about being successful in other people's eyes, and I was so worried about building up my resume in a way that other people would think well of me, including my parents, frankly, that I think I made a lot of decisions, honestly, for my whole life up until I did this, that were pretty less for me and more for them and for society and the way that I thought other people thought of me. Yeah. And so consulting was the job that everybody wanted. That was, you know, you had a good salary coming out. It was not the wrong thing to do and.

Unidentified Speaker
Right. And it's interesting because I'm the same way. I think, you know, my parents are also immigrants, and growing up, you know, you maybe show all these interests in different things, and you're like, I want to be. I want to do something that I'm passionate about, whatever. And then you become this age where you realize, you know, or I guess maybe our generation, it's like, when we were younger, we're told either by our parents or society that we have to go down a certain path to have security in life, and that maybe some of the things we're passionate about aren't great careers, like art.

Or, like, I remember back then, it was like, do not study art. Do not go to. Also, like, I didn't know growing up. I grew up in a small town. I grew up in Claremont, where the colleges are, and I didn't know that these were real jobs.

Amy Liu
Like, I didn't know anybody who was an entrepreneur or founder. I knew people who are doctors and lawyers and teachers, etcetera. Nor did I even know that working in the beauty industry was a job, because I didn't see it. Nobody around me had that job. I thought you could only do that on tv.

Like, people who lived in New York could go work in beauty. I didn't know that those were real things that people actually made money doing, and I didn't know how to do it right. So I think early on, younger, you asked me, like, what was younger Amy? Like, I think younger Amy was so scared and so worried about what other people thought that I was so fixated on branding, I guess, is probably the right word. So whether it was, like, what college I was going to, what grad school I was going to.

Unidentified Speaker
How come you didn't go to the colleges in Claremont? Oh, my God. I wanted to get out of there, really. Never even a consideration. Well, you grow up in a town, you don't really.

Amy Liu
I didn't even know, actually, how good the colleges in Claremont. I was about to just say, like, you know, growing up, I never had that on my radar. Cause I didn't think, like, liberal arts colleges were. I was like, oh, I'm gonna go to USC, or, like, one of these large. But then I, you know, grow, like, the age I'm at now.

Unidentified Speaker
Like, I have friends that went there and they have such great relationships with the other students. It's like these small knit small. Yeah. I actually married. My husband, went to Pomona College, and I had no idea what a great school it was.

Amy Liu
And he has so much love for Pomona college. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, you go. You study, or you study economics, you do consulting. What was that time of your life like, being in, like, consulting?

Unidentified Speaker
Did you enjoy it? Did you enjoy it? I mean, I mostly did it because I didn't know what I wanted to do. Yeah. I think something that was really formative for me in my younger years was really just this idea that I did not know what I wanted to do, but I wanted to, again, not mess up.

Amy Liu
And so I tried to pick things that would give me exposure and an opportunity to learn different things. Consulting at the time, like, I mean, my projects were everything from, like, I worked on Amgen, but I also worked for, like, the New York, the state of New Mexico, working for the child support services. So it was, like, kind of anything and everything. And I think the thing that I think has really been good for me in my career is I'm just genuinely a very curious person. And so I kind of feel like.

And I feel like this even when I hire people, like, just, it smart enough is, you know, everyone. There's a lot of people who are smart enough, but you have to just want to be, like, curious enough and learn something so then you can kind of do anything at that point. But I think consulting, for me was that first bit, but I very quickly realized after being there for two years that it wasn't what I wanted to do. I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do. So, frankly, I went to business school in an effort to give myself, like, to press pause, give myself a chance to figure out what I wanted to do and to change my career.

Unidentified Speaker
Yeah. And I know you went to USC, which is also my alma mater, and I'm curious what your experience was, like, not just at USC, but, like, getting an MBA. Like, was it worth it for you? Did you feel like you did get that experience there? You know, I think it was worth it for me.

Amy Liu
But again, I went two years out of college. I went when I. I actually wish now, looking back on it, I was in such a rush to do things, and I was in such a rush to, I don't know, be quote unquote successful, that I didn't learn as much as I could have had. I had more experience. Like, if I went back today, I think business school would make so much more sense for me.

But at the time, all those case. Studies, you'd be like, I've seen this. Yeah, I know what this is. Well, you would just be able to have context and be able to apply it where, like, at the time, I didn't, frankly, have that. And so I went.

I was the youngest person in business school at USC at the time. It was a great experience for me because I feel like I got exactly what I was looking for out of it, which was, I changed my career. So my first year in business school, I sat down with my career counselor, and by the way, this was what I considered my, like, quarter life crisis. Like, I was reading what should I do with my life and what color is my parachute? And I was doing all these exercises and trying to figure out, like, what is it that I want?

If it's not consulting, it's one of the things I've seen. What were some of those exercises? Can you kind of walk me through those? Cause I'm curious. Cause there's so many people I'm sure listening to that maybe are in a position.

Unidentified Speaker
They're like, I don't know what I wanna do. I'm in a job that might be a dead end job. Like, I don't really have direction. Well, let me tell you the thing that freaked me out the most is that you would, by the way, I weirdly love commencement speeches, and so I would listen to commencement speeches all the time, and everyone says, like, don't do a job. Do your passion.

Amy Liu
Do something you love. And I was like, I don't know what I'm passionate about. It's a really hard thing to know. Like, it's not something that just hits you. No.

And I had. I had. I still remember this in college when I had best friends, who's still one of my best friends today. And the day I met her, she was like, I'm going to be a doctor. Yeah.

And by the way, she's a doctor today. But, like, she knew. I envy those people sometimes. I envied her so much because I thought, like, if I knew what I want to do, I could tell you all of the steps. You'll figure it out.

It's so easy. I know exactly what I have to do, and I'll do it. Yeah. And I was so worried that I was taking steps that had nothing to do with anything. And now, in hindsight, now that I'm much older, I can look back on it and be like, oh, it all made sense.

Why was I so anxious? Why was I so worried that the path I was taking was, it was definitely a little bit more windy, but it still made a lot of sense in the end. So I guess for the looking back. Speaking of commencement speeches, Steve Jobs famous one. I literally just listened to that again recently.

Yeah. He talks about looking back and connecting the dots, which is exactly what you're saying. Basically 100%. It all makes sense, but it may not make sense in the moment. So in terms of, like, the questions, a lot of those questions are around.

Like, what is it that you feel passionate about? What are the things that you care about? What do you like to do? What are you. I always think about that.

Like, the intersection of what are you good at and what do you like to do? And that is where you'll find success. Because I'm assuming you've read ikigai or know about ikigai. I don't know what Ikigai is. Oh, really?

Unidentified Speaker
Okay. I have the book somewhere here, I'll show you. But it's basically like a double Venn diagram. Actually, we had Vicky Tsai of Tatcha. Oh, yeah.

Amy Liu
I love it. And she's the one that originally brought that up. This is years ago. And I'm like, what is this? So I bought the book and I read, and it was fascinating.

Unidentified Speaker
Have you heard of blue zones? Okay, so basically, it's like, it kind of correlates with the story of, like, in blue zones, folks find their ikigai, and that's why they really live long, is because it's the intersection of what you're good at, what the world needs, what you could be paid to do, and what you love. Oh, wow. And it's like the double. It's like the intersection of that.

So you kind of do this exercise. I've tried it, and it's still hard for me to, like, figure out the middle part. Um, like, I haven't really been able to deduce, like, this is exactly, you know, what. What it is for me, but I'm sure a lot of people have gotten a lot out of it. So, anyways, you were.

You talked about it, and so I thought maybe. Yeah, no, I mean, but that was definitely the headset I was in. And I think, on a really basic level, what I came up with is, I think the things that I find interesting are the ones where when you. When I was at accenture, I was doing a lot of programming which I couldn't see in the real world. Right.

Amy Liu
Like, it didn't affect my everyday. It wasn't something I could share with my friends or see in a consumer way. And so I kind of distilled it to the things I was looking for was I really like women. I really am someone. I was in a sorority.

I was. I really value my friendships with my girlfriends. I love that side of things, and I love women as consumers, too. And so I wanted to do something that had to do with being in the mindset of women, and I wanted it to be something where I could see it in real life. And specifically, I loved beauty and fashion.

I just didn't know how to get into those worlds. I didn't know what that would be like. But tell me about the, like, how you even became interested in that. Was it just when you were a kid, it was around, and you naturally just had an affinity towards beauty and, like, what was happening in the fashion space, or was there, like, something that you remember, like, a moment or something that was like, that's interesting. I don't have a specific moment.

And I would say that, oddly, I'm actually not someone who is obsessed with makeup either. So it's not like some people, there's girls on my team, and I love this about them. Like, you can put them inside of a sephora and they cannot hold themselves anyways back. They just want to buy everything. I feel almost none of that.

I love beauty, and I love the industry, but I love it because it's my community, and I love the way it makes women feel. And I think that was actually the through line that came through for me because I'm actually not like a. It's the actual product. It could kind of be a lot of things, I think, for me, yeah. As long as it was something that I felt like.

Like, in the industry, we often talk about how when you're making makeup, you're not, like, curing cancer. Right. So sometimes when things are stressful, inevitably somebody always says, guys, let's all calm down. We're not carrying cancer. And I always say, we may not be curing cancer, but one, we don't need to give people cancer.

We make products that are clean. But two, like, I actually do think that what we do is very important. The products that we are creating and selling, if it can really make you feel more confident about your skin. And a lot of people, a lot of women, people in general, I would say, when they wear makeup, when they put skincare on, feel like their best self, and your ability to feel like your best self, be confident, and go out into the world is hugely imperative. Like, it.

It takes away the fear, and fear is, I think, the thing that makes us not able to be our best selves and achieve the things that we want to do. So I actually think that what we do is super important. And I think, for me, I've had very troubled skin for the majority of my life. So from the time I was graduating from college, I've had eczema. And I don't know if you know much about.

You don't seem to have any skin issues. Oh, I mean, I like dry skin and stuff. Or is it. Eczema is more intense than dry skin. It is almost like.

And sometimes it does present a super dry skin that then becomes a rash that then becomes. It can become weepy, it can become. It's basically. I would call it, like, rosacea, psoriasis, eczema, or even acne, honestly. These are all forms of inflammation.

Unidentified Speaker
Yeah. And when unchecked, and if you can't maintain them, you know, your skin barrier breaks, you get rashes, and then it just exacerbates from there. Yeah. Um, and you. You hadn't been able to find, like, a solution for that from a young age or.

Amy Liu
Well, I had eczema on my face, and I had it on my hands, and I. At times I've had it on my legs. So they say you get it in almost like your, um, your crevices, so your armpits, behind your knees, that type of a thing. Right. And that's.

That's definitely how it was for me. And for me, it actually gets a lot worse when I feel stressed out, too. So the trick, I don't know. Nobody knows the cause of these things, but I can tell you the things that make it worse. So, for me, it's stress.

Poor sleeping habits, poor eating. Basically your twenties are not very good for. It's like going out late. You noticed a pattern. Like, if you were feeling stressed, you're like, I'm sorry.

Unidentified Speaker
If you were having bad eczema, you're like, oh, I must have been stressed, like, earlier today or something. Yeah, I mean, it's that slash, like, I think, again, I don't know. I'm not a doctor. I don't know what causes it. But the frustrating thing about it is if you go to a doctor, they're like, sorry, there's no cure.

Amy Liu
And I don't know why you have it, but it sucks. And so the only thing you can do is try to learn how to manage it. And so for me, I was always trying to cover it up because the thing that I, you know, really wanted to do was make it so other people couldn't see it because I felt so insecure about it. And I think that was kind of the genesis for tower 28, because I felt like there's a lot of skincare in the world that is made for sensitive skin, but in the color cosmetics world, there aren't a lot of products that are made to be safe for sensitive skin and highly efficacious and clean. And then I would say that the last kind of pillar to that is what I consider to be an affordable price point.

Unidentified Speaker
Yeah. Um, and so that's really what. What made me start tower 20. But that was much later. Yeah, yeah.

So you spent, like, I think, 20 years in the beauty industry. It's 21 now. Yeah. So, uh. Or I guess, yeah, a little bit less than that.

Before you started tower 28. So what, what did you. I know you were doing marketing, kind of share a little bit about, I guess, what that experience was like working at these different beauty brands. What did you see? What did you learn?

Amy Liu
Yeah. That eventually helped you when you started tower 28. So I graduated from USC. I had majored in. I double majored in marketing and in entrepreneurship.

I was in a club, which I don't. I think they may have had the undergrad version of this, too, the EVMa, the entrepreneurship venture management. I was president of the entrepreneur, the USC entrepreneur club, which is the undergraduate entrepreneur. Oh, got it. Okay, so we had something again, a long time ago.

Unidentified Speaker
Yep. We had a program called, or a club called the EVMa. And I was in that and when. So when I was in business school, I got my first internship at Maybelline. Then my second year, I started.

Amy Liu
Do you ever, do you know who Dean Ellis is? Ellis? Yes. Yes, Dean Ellis. Such a fan of his.

And he called me into his office when I was at USC, and he said, hey, I'm going to go play golf with this guy named Dean Factor, who is the founder of Smashbox Cosmetics. And he's like, can you, like. I just want to make sure I don't look dumb on the golf course. Can you tell me a little bit about Smashbox? And I honestly did maybe ten minutes of research.

I was like, this is what they do. This is where they're sold. This is how they position themselves. Here you go. He went and played golf, came back, and he was like, you need to go.

He gave me a business card, and he was like, call them. I think they have a job for you. And I just started my second year. I called, I interviewed, they hired me so quickly. Wow.

And I started as. They're full time. So then my second year, I started full time as a director of international marketing, and I became a PM student at USC. And then the day I graduated from USC, literally, I started flying around. I went to Singapore almost like, literally the next day.

And so that was my first real job in beauty. So that was a long time ago. I went from there. I went to. And I went from there, and then I went to Kate Somerville skincare.

And I did that when we were first time in retail. So Kate had just brought on private equity for the first time. She and the private equity team hired an entire executive team at the same time. I actually was not hired as the head of marketing. I was hired as a director.

But my. It was like 2008, and my financial crisis was happening. My boss, for whatever reason, got fired within the first month I was there, and I said. I was like, just let it be me. I want to do it.

Let me be the head of marketing. You don't have to pay me anymore. And they were like, great price. It's you, right? Cause they probably fired or laid that person off because of how much they were making.

Unidentified Speaker
It was probably not. Yeah, I'm assuming. I don't know. I mean, I never. Honestly, she just, like, dipped out one day.

Amy Liu
I never saw her again, so I never even had a conversation. Yeah, they probably thought they had to pay this high price for another head of marketing. You're just like, I'll do it. Yeah, they were paying me like beans, but they were like, great. Yeah, but you felt like it'd be.

Unidentified Speaker
Good for your career to. Honestly, it was great for my career. So I went from Smashbox to Kate Somerville to Josie Marin, all of them being indie founder based beauty brands in LA, which at the time, like, certainly back in the day of Smashbox, it was really like department store brands. So it was Estee Lauder, Clinique, Shiseido, like, really big companies. And so this was kind of the beginning of that.

Amy Liu
And I felt like, for me, I. I was always risk averse. I always wanted to do this, and I told everybody I wanted to do it, but I also said, I'm just going to learn on someone else's dime. And so I felt like if you look at the companies I went to, the companies got smaller, but my role got bigger, and I got a closer seat at the table, and that's what I was really looking for. But then I had kids, so I was at Josie, I had two kids at the time, and I just felt overwhelmed.

I had. I don't know if you know a lot of people with kids, but I actually think this is a big problem for women in general in our society, is that women are kind of hitting their stride in their career around the same time that biologically, we need to be having children, because, like, let's face it, our bodies are actually meant to have kids younger. It's quite hard on your body to kids. Yep. And so if you look at that and then you take women and you pull them out of the workforce because it is so expensive to have childcare, certainly in a city like LA.

Right. Like, to have children to whatever all of these things are, it's just really hard, frankly. And so this is something I actually. Care a lot about, and it's something that I feel like maybe we don't even talk enough about. But, like, I don't know, like, what.

Unidentified Speaker
What has to happen there. I mean, there really. Is there, like, any way? I think some of it is we just have to, like, normalize. Like, that's okay, right?

Amy Liu
So it's like. Yeah, like, yeah, exactly. Like, like, if. If someone is out of the workforce for. Because of per year or two even because they're having kids like that, that should be, like, a good thing.

Like, because to me, I would. A million times over, I would rather have, like, this idea of, like, quiet quitting really bothers me. Like, the idea that people would just stay in a job that, like, not be 100%. I would rather like you go do you, and then come back when you're ready and you're fresh. And I would rather have somebody who, like, went and, like, took care of their kids or did whatever they needed to do because we all have personal stuff and then, like, be ready for it because, you know, like, I think it's too hard to do so many things at once, and I think that's what I essentially did.

So I I was really unhappy at the time. I felt like I was. I don't know if you've ever had that, but I felt like I was doing lots of things, but not, and, like, so busy but not still and not feeling the not my best self in anything I was doing. Yeah, you were just sort of on the surface of everything you were doing, like, you didn't really feel like you were going too deep into one or two. One of the things, I just sort.

Of felt like I sucked, you know what I mean? But yet I was, like, from morning to night, just, I felt like I was grinding. Right? Like, you're. And not super.

And when I'm with my kids, I'm not present. And when I'm at work, I'm thinking about, you know what I mean? I'm curious at that stage in your life, too. So when you're younger and you're kind of thinking about, what should I do for my career? You.

Unidentified Speaker
I think. So you decided, like, oh, this is what I'm passionate about is, like, this beauty industry and all that stuff. But I think once you get a little bit deeper in your career, you hit another crisis, which is like, what am I working this hard? What am I working towards at this point? Am I trying to be the CEO of the company I'm working at?

Am I trying to learn enough and, like, do you have this really clear goal of, like, getting enough experience and then just pivoting and starting your own thing? Like, but sometimes people don't have that. And so I think you hit this another wall, and it's not really, like, a, like, a glass ceiling of, like, work. It's more of, like, your personal glass ceiling of, like, where am I going with this? So, obviously, you have purpose in your life because you have kids and you're, you know, you want to be a great mother, but then also with work, how were you, what were you thinking in terms of what you were working towards?

Did you know that you were going to leave and start another company or start a company? I wish I could tell you it was that deep. I think at that point, I was just, like, treading to stay above water, right? Like, I was just I didn't want to lose this thing that I felt like I had worked so hard at, which was my career. And I felt like it was something that I really.

Amy Liu
It was a huge part of my identity. And so I quit. And when I stopped working at. I quit working at Josie, and I stayed at home with my two kids. I had a third child.

I remodeled a house. Like, I was really busy, but that whole time. And I took four. In the end, I took four years off from working full time. I consulted, and I did other things, and I kept my toe in the water, but I felt really.

I don't know if the right word is stress, but I felt like a crisis of identity, to be honest with you. I was so worried I wouldn't be able to get in when I wanted to. I think when you have kids, you're meeting people a lot of times for the first time, whether you're talking about preschool or kindergarten or whatever, it's a new community for you. And people would. In America, I think this is so part of our society.

People meet you and they're like, what do you do? Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's the first question. And, like, people size you, like, you know, and implicit in that is like.

Unidentified Speaker
Are you worth my time right now? 100%? And I was like, oh, but want to know what I used to do? You know, I could feel myself being insecure, like, yes. Yeah.

Amy Liu
And so, basically, I did that for. And now if I could do anything, actually, if I could go back to that time, the only thing, and again, this is back to your connect the dots of, like, Steve Jobs. Like, I just wish I enjoyed that time more, that I didn't worry so much about, like, coming back into the business, because obviously, I've now done that. But at the time, I couldn't have known. Yeah.

Unidentified Speaker
Once you realize everything turned out okay. Yeah, actually, everything turned out great. Then you. Then you want to go back and be like, I wish I knew that back then, 100%. Like, but I think I wished at the time, I was so worried about becoming irrelevant.

Amy Liu
I was so worried about my skills. Like, the world changes really fast, right? And so, like, quite honestly, I didn't even have an Instagram account until I started Tower 28 because I was, like, just not. Like I was taking care of kids, and I just wasn't in that mode at the time. You don't want to post all your kids on.

No, I'm not really. And in general, on social, like, I'm actually. I have to learn how to be. I'm not someone who, in public, in a certain way, I actually quite. I quite enjoy having conversations with people like you.

Unidentified Speaker
Yeah. But I don't, you know, take pictures of myself getting ready. I don't, you know, I think we all do what we're comfortable with. Yeah. But, yeah, so I, for four years, I consulted.

Amy Liu
I was at home taking care of my kids, and then I essentially wanted to go back to work. Once my youngest one got into preschool, I was like, okay, I'm ready. I want to go back to work. I met with a friend of mine from business school, and we were talking, and he was like. I was like, these are the things I'm looking for.

I want something funded. I want something senior. I want something where I have equity and upside. And he was like, or you want to do something on your own because you've been saying this for such a long time. And what year is this?

Just for content, this is 20. 1818. Okay. 2018. Also, I was turning 40, and he was like, you're turning 40.

Either you're going to do it or you're not. And I was like, wow, that was kind of like the swift kick in the butt that I needed. And long story short, he ended up becoming my first money in because I was like, great. Easy for you to say. Yep, I don't have money.

I don't have. I don't have a partner. And he said to me, and this is the thing that I will never, I will always be so grateful to him for, is he was like, if you don't have money, that's fine. He's like, if you have money, you don't need a partner because you can hire people. I was like, well, I still don't have money.

Like, we just bought my, in LA, I bought my first house at, like, basically 40. Yeah. We were sending three of our kids to private school, which I recognize is, like, champagne problems. Yep. But we.

He was like, then why don't you raise money? I was like, I don't know how to raise money. I didn't think that was something everyday people could do. I don't. I didn't know anything about private equity.

I had seen, like, in the news, you saw, like, glossier and away and, like, these, like, it was in that girl boss era, I remember. Yeah, I had Sofia Amarouso on the show recently, too. So I. I wasn't, you know, you. Were in that scene.

Yeah, I was an employee. You know what I mean? And at the time, I was like a stay at home mom. So I was like, I have no idea what you're talking about. But he offered to invest half of whatever I needed.

Unidentified Speaker
And what did he do for work? So he was my co president of the EVMa that we just talked about. But after we graduated from business school, he started a SaaS company and sold it. Okay, nice. So he had some money.

He wanted to angel invest. It wasn't like he was working at. A VC firm or something, but I didn't know he had sold this company. Okay. So, like, we were just in earnest, having a conversation.

Amy Liu
I didn't even think about doing any of this. Yeah, yeah. And turns out, which. Maybe you already know this, but I didn't know this. When you sell a company, you can defer capital gains if you invest in something else.

Unidentified Speaker
And so it's like a 1031 exchange in real estate. Correct. The same thing as with a house. And he was like, he only had a certain amount of time that he could do this. And so he was like, if you can, I'll give you the money, half of whatever you need, if you can raise the other half in 30 days.

Amy Liu
And I was like, what? That's a. That's a short timeline. Totally. Especially when I didn't have an idea.

Unidentified Speaker
Cause you gotta do a rodeo. You gotta go to all these firms. I didn't. Well, and I didn't know anything about any of this. I was like, I don't even know what terms look like.

Amy Liu
I don't know. And so he basically wrote terms, gave them to me, and he's like, this is what you do. Like, go. Don't take my word for it. Go ask people if these are good terms and if this is what you should do.

And so I called basically, like, a few friends that I knew just were even invested in things, and they weren't necessarily, like, I called a guy who does, like, private equity, but for tech. Yeah. Or whatever, and they. They would just push me to somebody else. But it was kind of like following the cookie trail, where, like, pretty soon I was talking to people.

But the truth is, the people who invested in me were my friends. When they say friends and family, like, it really was my friends. And did you what? Like, did you know what you're building at that point? Or, like, did you.

Unidentified Speaker
Had you already come up with kind of. No. So you were just like, I want to start a business. I need money. I don't know what yet, but, no.

Amy Liu
I put together a deck, and it was always going to be. I mean, the obvious thing was always going to be beauty. I actually, prior to this, I tried to start three other companies with other people, like, side hustle wise. What were some of those things? I'm just curious.

So when I was. During the four year period, I actually had interviewed for a job with t three, which is a hair tool company, and it just wasn't the right timing for me, so I didn't come back. And then I saw Kent, who's the founder. I saw him, actually at the park with his kids, and I was with my kids, and he was like, why didn't you come back? And I was like, I didn't come back because it's just not the right time.

And I was like, oh, we were talking. I was like, I've actually always wanted to do something on my own. And so he had, at the time, made a shower attachment, or to filter out all the yucky stuff from the water, which is actually quite hard on your hair, like, calcification, all these things. And so he was like, listen, I've always. It was his idea.

He was like, I've always thought it would be such a good idea to do this for bathtubs, for babies. And I was like, I was totally in that mode of, like, baby and everything. Yeah. And so we actually did start a thing where we. And we went through all of the R and D.

He was like, I'll be the money, you be the muscle, and let's go do this. Um, we're still actually pretty good friends today, but that failed because essentially, there's a reason no one makes it. Like, if you think about your Brita filter, think about how slowly that water drips out. Oh, yeah. And you can't, um, the water coming out of a shower can be moderated, but the water coming out of a fast.

People don't moderate how fast it is because it doesn't really matter. Right. You'll fill it up to the level you're gonna fill it up to. Yeah. So, anyways, that didn't.

That didn't work. I also started another, like, the little bra company was saying that I did in business school, which was like, you know, whatever. I. There were a number of things I did. Yeah.

But it wasn't until this, which was I. What I was doing was I was trying to attach myself to people that I thought were really smart, and it was their idea. And until I did my own thing where I was, like, kind of betting on myself, that was when things changed for me.

Unidentified Speaker
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I think that's something that sometimes could be a struggle for someone who is entrepreneurial or has these entrepreneurial aspirations, which is like, well, if I don't have an idea that I'm super into like 100%, then what is the next best thing? And maybe, yeah, go work for someone that you respect and admire or whatever, but I think it's just like coming to that point where there is something that you're so passionate about that you have to go after it. You know, you have the skills to do it. You know how you have the ambition. It's just you don't know which direction to point it to because you don't know what to pursue, like, in terms of ideas.

Amy Liu
Well, I think the story I told myself was, especially at that point in my life, as I was a really good number two, I felt like I was really good at making other people's dreams come true. I was really good at telling other people's stories. And the idea that I would, like, turn that towards myself was a really hard one. And honestly, one, I feel like I'm even just still trying to figure out now. Yeah.

Um, but so, yes, it was always, listen, it was always beauty. It was always going to be that. But I think at the, again, turning it towards other people was kind of the natural inclination I had. So my first idea was actually to make a beauty brand that was targeted towards, I was looking at my daughters and my daughters were like, kissing me to get the transfer from my lipstick because they wanted to get wear, you know, I wouldn't let them wear lipstick. Right.

Unidentified Speaker
Um, so they found a hack. Totally. And at the time, liquid lips were really popular, which I don't know if you know what that is, but liquid lips are essentially very, probably not very good for you in terms of, like, if something purports to stay on your lips for like, 24 hours, it is not made out of things that are healthy. Healthy, necessarily. Um, and so I.

Amy Liu
That was kind of the first idea I had, is I was like, well, what happens when my kids get bigger? And they are so my kids, like me, have eczema. I have two daughters. I have one son. And I thought, like, what if I could make products that were, like, not only safe for sensitive skin, but also clean, meaning non toxic?

And so that was the original concept, but I wanted it to be actually for younger people because it was more about them than it was about me. And then I thought, like, but wait a minute, I'm eating this. Like, they say if you put lipstick on or you wear lip product, that you eat, like, seven pounds a year, which I don't know if that's true, but it kind of makes sense. And so I thought, like, okay, well, maybe it's. It's more that.

But honestly, like, things for me, can. You put, like, nutrients in it? Like vitamins? Yeah, I mean, like, might as well, right? As well.

Yeah, I mean, now we put. We do. We put. Actually, our lip jelly is made out of, like, five different oils, like an apricot kernel oil and avocado oil. And, yeah, so, yes, we do those types of things now.

But it's interesting because not until. So even when I originally started the brand, it was, like, not about me and my experience. And when I started meeting with editors, and they were like, well, why do you care so much about sensitive skin? I was like, oh. And I told them about my eczema, and they were like, that's actually the story.

Like, why are you not telling that part of the story? So even from the beginning, we made the product. So the way that we do, which is we're the only beauty brand that's 100% compliant with the national eczema Association, because that was something I was looking at to figure out. I don't know, what do I wash my hands with? What kind of detergent should I use?

And so I was using that as a resource, and so I used it to develop the products. Um, but honestly, not until we kind of, like, put me my story in it. Or I would even say it's just the authenticity of it. Like, why do you actually care about this? Then that was when things started to really move a little bit.

Unidentified Speaker
You know, often when someone has had so much experience and maybe even gone to business school and learned, you know, sort of the. The business school side of, you know, business, which is obviously different than, you know, someone maybe who's, like, 18, 1921 years old, starting a business, that naivete that you haven't really, like, experienced much of anything, really, and you're just kind of figuring it out as you go. That person might look at a business idea and just, like, tear it apart. Right. Basically, like, you do, like, the swot analysis and be like, what's out there?

And, you know, it's like a saturated market. Like, why would this ever succeed? Or, like, um, you know, all these, like, you know, just basically talking yourself out of doing it because you know so much about what works and what doesn't. Was that something that you felt at all? For sure.

Amy Liu
I think, like, I am probably more cynical because I've had so many years in the business where I'm like, oh, I saw, like, we were talking about launching a product recently. I was like, eh, so and so did that, like, you know, 15 years ago, like, it's already been done, but the truth is nobody remembers anything. So 15 years ago, even if you did something, but now you're doing it with a different product philosophy, it could totally be new again. Yeah. So, um, yes, I definitely had that cynicism, but I think the other part that has served me well is I'm like a super optimistic person in general.

And so I think that you. It's healthy to have a little bit of that cynicism. I think you have to be almost that combination of, like, dululu where you're like, yeah, yeah, I like feet on. The ground, but also just like, that optimism is so necessary to, to break through those. Yeah, you have to have some constraints too, right.

So I think, like, for me, it was like, okay, well, we can take some bets, but let's take some bets in a really formulaic way so that, like, I can manage how much risk I'm taking. Yeah. So presumably you end up raising some money that you need. So we ended up raising some money from. What was that early.

Unidentified Speaker
Yeah, what was that early process of getting, you know, the brand going and, like, product development, all that stuff. And what are some of the challenges maybe at the time that were, that you faced? I mean, there's challenges the whole way through, and I think that's, like, the thing that is probably. I don't know if that's shocking for people, but, like, things have gone really well for us and it's still challenging. And I can only imagine, like, if it didn't go well, how.

Amy Liu
How I would feel early on. The challenges are different than they are today. I liken it a lot to, like, I don't think you have kids, right. Not yet if you have, for those of your listeners even who have kids, I do think it's a lot like having children where it's like having a baby is unique in that it is all consuming. They need you so much.

It's 100% of. So much of it is your attention. And there are things that you need to do for the baby that, like, nobody else could do for the baby. And you can hire a babysitter, but, like, really, a lot of it is you. And then as your kid gets older, which is more, I think, where we're starting to go now, like, there are things that I can't.

I'm not going to do as well for the baby. Like, I don't know enough. And so I need to hire people in who are smarter and better. Actually, my. My 15 year old went to boarding school this year, which was very much that same analogy for me, because honestly, like, we.

His. He just needed more in terms of his education and, you know, like, I don't know. So I think it just changes. It shifts. But the thing that you need in the beginning, I think, is one thing that's been really important for me is having team.

I didn't do. My career has been in companies and with teams, and frankly, like, I'm not a genius in isolation. I'm someone who, like, if. Even if I have an idea and I thought it was a good idea, I could talk myself out of it on my own, right. I need to, like, bat it around and be like, what do you think?

And have it iterate to get better. And so my first three employees were girls who had never had jobs before that I kind of met from different ways. One, I spoke at Fitm, and she dmed me and afterwards asked for a free internship. One was my husband's co workers wife, and the other was my nanny, who, like, during COVID I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna pay you anyway, so you might as well write pos for me. But having, like, early people who believed in what I was doing and wanted to be part of it, I think there's.

There's nothing quite like that, especially early on. And I'm so proud to say that those girls are all still with me today. Yeah, that's awesome. What about from the product side? Like, did you from the beginning, kind of come up with, like, a line of products that you wanted to offer?

Unidentified Speaker
And then how was that in terms of, did you have to go find a manufacturer and put together the formulations? And sometimes they have minimums? And were you able to meet those. How did all that. Look at that initial inventory and all that stuff?

I think sometimes, yeah. So I think one of the things that has been easier for me is that because I've worked in the industry for so long, I knew, and I've worked in small companies, because I've worked in small companies, I've had visibility into a lot of different things. And even if I don't know how to do it, I've been next to it. So I can kind of, and I have friends that I can call and ask questions, too. So I understood, like, who to go to for which things.

Amy Liu
And I. From the very beginning, I worked with a contract manufacturer. I'm not someone I did. I mean, I hear about people doing this all the time where they buy stuff from Amazon and they start mixing things. And that's not my.

My path. It's also not my, um, ability. And so I worked with contract manufacturers from the beginning. I, in general, really believe in deferring to experts. Like, I think I feel like I'm good at what I'm good at.

And then, so even if you're talking about, like, the National Eczema Association, I don't pretend to know everything about what irritates skin. I would rather refer to toxicologists and dermatologists and people who study this all the time. Clean is, like, this undefined, non toxic thing. So, like, we work with credo. We work with Sephora, which are both of our retailers, and they maintain lists of.

These are all the things you should not pay attention, you know, like, not include in your products. Is there, like, a stamp of approval from, like, these, like, associations that go on these products for consumers to know. So, credo, everything inside of credo has to be clean. Like, they won't let you in if it's not, which is. They have a pretty rigorous list.

Oop does too. And then at Sephora, they also have a list where they. They don't allow. And they have seals for all of those things. The National Eczema association is the most rigorous.

So oftentimes the way seals in general work is that you will give you a list of, like, this is how they think about their seal. And then you sign something that says, okay, I promise I won't do that. And then that's kind of it. You pay them some money. You get to use the seal.

The National Eczema association gives you a no no list. Then you go make your products. Then you have to submit to them not only the ingredients in your products, but a QQ which is the percentages of everything in it. Then on top of that, you have two third party tests. So we actually do.

And actually, in the beginning, we were doing. So we do something called hript, which is repeat irritation patch testing, and it's on a human. And in the beginning, we were doing 50 people, which is what they originally had asked, I think. Is it what they asked for? That is what they asked for.

In the beginning, we've actually increased it to a hundred subjects. And then we do it on people who have sensitive skin, and then a dermatologist has to look at it. Got it. And then on top of that, so we misread the guidelines. We thought it's actually supposed to be one of the tests, but we thought you were supposed to do all of them.

And so we've actually spent way more money than we had to, like, do. More testing than anything else. Yeah. So we. And then now we do something called safety and use.

And safety and use is, like, not just, like, putting it on your arm in a small amount, but, like, safety and use means you're using it at the level that you're using it in actual usage. So, like, if you're talking about a moisturizer, it's. You're putting it all over your entire face, as opposed to just putting, like, a two by two inch square on your arm type thing. So then you submit all of this data, and then they have a third. They have their own internal kind of experts that look at it, which is a team of dermatologists, like doctors, toxicologists, etcetera, that they look at it and then they give you the seal of acceptance.

So it's a pain, to be honest with you, and it kind of ekes into our timelines quite a bit. But at the same time, like, it makes me feel safer as a brand that this is something I'm putting out into the world saying, like, it's not going to irritate your skin. And at the very least, I've taken every precaution I could to make sure that these will work for you, because I think makeup is this thing where, like, we want. Yes, we want to look more beautiful than when we used it, but the thing you want more than anything is for. Not for it to make your skin worse.

Right? So if you put something on and it makes you break out, you're like, oh, my God, this is the worst thing ever. And, like, I mean, let's face it, sometimes, whether you're talking about a moisturizer or whatever, you're like, did it work? I mean, I can't really always tell. Depends on your skin type.

And if you have great skin already, you're like, whatever. But, yeah, that was, that was a huge part of kind of what we did in development and continue to do. So once you have the product developed. I know your background was in beauty marketing. You obviously have to market it and get it out there so people know what it is and why it's good for them and, you know where they can buy it and all that stuff.

Unidentified Speaker
So it's like 20 1819 at this time. Pre Covid, you know, influencer life is thriving. Instagram is thriving. Well, it is for other people, but I'm not an influencer. Not you.

I know, but generally speaking, it was a great time for influencers. So I'm just curious, you know, what do you, what did you do initially that kind of got the product out there? And was it pretty quick in terms of people realizing its benefits and, like, you know, starting to, like, really repeating customers? So I think the thing that we, it did really well, and I think the thing that I think I've done really well in general is I know who I am and I know what I'm good at and I know what I'm not good at. Right.

Amy Liu
So the barrier entry for beauty brands today is actually very low. Right. You can go to make a ballet, which is a trade show. You can find a vendor there. If you want to pick it up exactly as it is.

You could launch it real quick. So it's very easy to start a beauty brand today. That said, to scale it, I think, is quite hard. Oh, yeah. So for me, I know that I'm not an influencer.

I know that people aren't going to buy these products just because they like me or because I'm, like, doing a get ready with me or something like that. So what I did was I kind of called on the things that I am good at, which is I have a lot of relationships with these retailers that I've built over the years. So, like, for instance, I've worked in the industry for 21 years, but I've worked with Sephora for 21 years. Okay. So I always knew that, listen, Sephora likes to say it's actually harder to get into Sephora than it is to get into Harvard.

It is so hard to get in. Based on how many brands try to get in. So many applicants. Like, so many people have brands. And so I don't think they took me because they just like me.

Unidentified Speaker
Right. I don't think that's what I'm trying to say. But I. When we launched, we launched in April of 2019. And, like, honestly, launching was, like an Instagram mood board.

Amy Liu
It was not even. Not a lot of fanfare. And I remember being so upset that we were, like, late. And my husband was like, what are you late for? Nobody is waiting for you.

Like, what's the big deal? Yeah. And. But after we launched, there were maybe, like, 50 people liking our posts. And I, you know, I had sent an email out to a bunch of contacts being like, I started this brand, blah, blah, blah.

And one of those people was this woman, Averil, who was the she when I was working at my last brand at Josie. She was low on the totem pole early in her career. At Josie. Sorry, at Sephora. At Sephora.

And then by the time I started my brand, she was the director of clean makeup. Wow. Great contact, right? And I could see her. She was one of literally 50 people.

Unidentified Speaker
Yeah. Like, liking my posts. Yep. And I was like, oh, okay. And I.

Amy Liu
But I didn't. I hadn't been in touch with her in years. And I just like, whatever. And we had gone to credo, which is one of the retailers we're proudly with now. And that woman, Annie Jackson, had been my merchant when I was at Josie too.

So I knew her, and she took us from the first meeting, and that was my first entry into retail. And so then I got a little more confident because I was like, wow, that went well. Yeah. And a friend of mine who worked at Sephora was like, listen, I feel like you should pitch. I'm like, there's no way I'm too early.

Like, why would. I have no proof of concept? I have nothing. Like, why would they say yes? And she was like, I don't know.

I just. I hear them talk about clean a lot. Like, I feel like at least you pitch and you get on their radar. And I'm so glad that, like, I've had these, like, whether it was that or my friend from business school, like, I think these moments where somebody, like, gives you, like, that swift kick in the ass where you're, like, just. They encourage you to dare a little more greatly than you would have on your own, I think are really important.

Yep, yep. And so then I went to. I pitched to Sephora, and I wrote to April, and I said, hey, like, I've got this brand. I didn't say, I know you're one of the 50 people liking my. And she.

They took the. They took tower 20 immediately, and they took us in all stores which is. What was the feedback you got in terms of what. I mean, aside from, you know, like, if they just did it because they liked you or knew you, is not a great business move on anyone's part, because you're right. Like, but there was obviously more than that.

Unidentified Speaker
It was. It was, I think, from the very beginning, the differentiation of the way that we have developed the products and our products, like, promise. Like, we have built a pretty defensive moat in the sense where clean has been this. And I still think this actually, like, clean in general is just not enough. It's like table stakes.

Amy Liu
Right? So you can make your products clean now, but that is just. It's just not an issue. Enough. Yep.

The thing I was trying to do was develop clean products, make them in this way that was really, like, safer, sensitive skin, but package it in a way that wasn't making the consumer feel like a patient or like a. Like a clinical. Clinical thing. Because for me, like, I'm. This is my everyday.

Like, my eczema is something that I will have forever, for the rest of my life, and it still comes up for me. It's just much more controlled than it used to be. Um, and I feel like that about eating, too. Like, some people have gluten, you know, allergies, or they have dairy allergies. Like, I just think there's more today that is like that.

Unidentified Speaker
Yeah. And we all have inflammation. And so from the very beginning, it was like, okay, can I do this in a way that is actually, like, table stakes on the clean. Let's make it safer, sensitive skin. But more importantly, it has to be high performance.

Amy Liu
It has to really work. I'm friends with so many. For my days at Smashbox, I was friends with so many celebrity makeup artists. So, like, from the very beginning, I was like, test all of these products. Tell me if they're good.

Like, use them on set. Let me know if it's working. So I knew that the products could work, and then I think trying to make them, like, honestly cute, right? Aesthetic. And to your point about what Instagram is and was and is, it has to, like, look good in a flat lay.

It has to be something you can take a photograph of and you can pull out of your purse and feel excited for other people to see it. Yeah. Obviously having, like, you mentioned, like, you know, knowing celebrity makeup artists, and I'm assuming maybe those got eventually to celebrities and, like, having their endorsement helps a lot, I'm sure, because, you know, they have big followings and, like, people really, like, you know, I guess. Follow what they say and want to trust them to a certain extent. Was that something that just came naturally, or did you, like, have to really go out there and, like, get the product?

No, I think I just. I think I've learned a little bit from every experience I have. So back to, like, connecting the dots. Like, when I was working at Smashbox, our tagline was developed by the makeup artists at Smashbox Studios. So that was the way I knew to make products, was that you work with the labs to create it, you work with, you look at the market to understand the need gaps in a really analytical way, but then.

Then you have to make sure it actually works in practice. So whether you're talking about shade development, like, listen, I am not. It's really important to me that our products work from a diversity and inclusivity perspective, but I'm not touching skin that way. So, like. And certainly not the range of skin tones.

And so, like, it was always important to me from the very beginning that specifically we had that credibility and validation of the makeup artist. And so from the very beginning, we've seeded very strongly in that way. And I think one of the greatest compliments I've been given is a friend of mine told me the other day they were, like, literally, I've never met a celebrity makeup artist that doesn't have something of yours in their kit, because really early on, it was important to us. Even, like, our packaging is clear. Yeah.

Which the intention of that is, like, back in the day, like, Mac, Bobbi Brown, all of those. Everything was black. Yep. And if you're a makeup artist, you have to, like, open it to figure out what's inside. Right.

And so, like, I thought about it from an artistry perspective, and I'm like, oh, I can see it. I can see what the shades are, and I can just grab them. Yeah. So. And they also don't take up more room than they need to, because I'm thoughtful about the fact that artists are, like, on the move, and they have to carry these really, really heavy bags.

So I was also trying to save money. Right. So, like, we don't have, like, a lot of. Maybe you don't know this, but a lot of makeup brands do things where they, like, weight the products to make them feel more expensive, or they have, like, overshell caps or, like, false bottoms, things that make the product look bigger. Right.

Unidentified Speaker
But it's, like, somewhat borderline deceptive or not. Really. Yeah. I mean, we talked, like, something we talk about in beauty a lot is, like, value perception. Right.

Amy Liu
Because you want to feel you're going to charge $85 for your mask, like your lotion or whatever, which ours is like 28. But if you're doing that, you want it to feel like a luxury experience. And so part of that is size impression. Part of that is the way that you decorate it. And I wanted to play a different game.

I was like, I want you to be able to shop at Sephora. I want you to be able to have a premium prestige experience and, like, walk out with your little black and white bag. But I want to be able to do it for all different ages, all different, you know, economic levels. Yep. And so, like, our lip gloss is $16 as opposed to, I would say the average is probably like 26.

Unidentified Speaker
And are those brands that are charging that much more? Are they some like, these huge brands that everyone knows, like, around? Is it just because they're just leaning on their brand name or, you know, because for someone who's like an upstart, like the margins might. You're kind of obviously cutting into your margins that way. But it's possible is what you're saying it's possible for.

Amy Liu
Well, I think we're making different decisions. Right. So I have worked at brands. Kate Somerville was a really prestige brand that was charging quite literally $65 to $85 for a cream more in some cases. But they were also like, if you look at the box, they were like, embossing it.

They were debossing it. They were adding foil to it. They have different cost of goods than I do. Right. So my cost of goods are much more like, they print on both sides of the carton.

I only print on one side of the carton. Yeah. And so there are things that you can do to control costs. But does the consumer feel it? Maybe?

Like, I am kind of like, I believe that design is not something that should be only for it could be democratized. Right. A lot of the choices I make are like, okay, well, I think I can make great design and an amazing product, but the way that I forego and the way that I save is I do stock packaging, so I'm not doing which is harder. Right. Like, the packaging.

I do. Somebody else could come around and do it because I don't own. I do, like, basically circles and squares, where a lot of people can do circles and squares, but, like, you look at, like fenty from Rihanna or like, rare by Selena, they have, like, they own shapes. Yeah. Custom tooling that you can look at immediately and it belongs to them.

Unidentified Speaker
Right. But that's expensive and they have and you, financially, you have to pass that on to your customer in some way. And so for me, I was like, I can spend as much as everyone else does on the stuff on the inside. So, like, the goop is the same, but then the stuff around it that packages it, I save money on. It's awesome.

You have a product, the x one so's spray, which sells every 15 seconds, which is like, for a minute. Yeah. I think it actually might be even faster now. More than. More than that.

It's like two. Yeah. What is that, 240? Yeah. Per hour.

Amy Liu
It's. Wow. It's good. Why is. Why.

Unidentified Speaker
How does it. That's crazy. How does it sell that much? Like, so, our so's daily rescue facial spray is our number one selling product. It has an ingredient in it called hypochlorous acid.

Amy Liu
Hypochlorous acid has been used for, honestly, centuries, but used in hospital settings for wound care. It has not been used commercially, and we were the first people to use it has been used commercially in some instances, but we were the first people to use it in a specifically for facial use. We worked with a lab that has perfected. So the problem, it hasn't been commercialized earlier is because it's actually pretty. An unstable ingredient.

So it's pretty fickle. Okay. Where, like, it can lose its potency really fast. Got it. And so in.

I have a friend who is a doctor. She's a plastic surgeon, and she literally is taking hypochlorous acid. Not ours, because ours is not a medical grade, but she's, like, pouring it into your skin or into your body while she's doing surgery. So she's irrigating with it. Wow.

The reason why hypochlorous acid is so powerful is because it is both an antibacterial anti and an anti inflammatory. So, again, back to the conversation around skin. If you have any inflammation on your skin, whether you're talking about acne, sunburn, honestly, even, like, sweat is a toxin that sits on your skin. Yep. The two things you want to do are to neutralize it.

So which is the anti inflammatory part? You want to, like, keep it calm and bring it back to, like, normal. But the thing you really want to do is you want to make sure that you're not exacerbating the problem with bacteria. So, like, if you think about, like, say, acne, the thing that makes your acne a lot worse is if it gets bacteria and then it kind of makes it spread. The thing with eczema is if you, like, scratch it oftentimes you're doing it with your hands or your nails that are kind of dirty, and that makes it spread and makes it worse.

And so this is such a great and efficacious antibacterial, anti inflammatory that it works for a myriad of different use cases. So for me, it's eczema. For other people, it might be honestly just like, redness. I know people. I've heard the craziest stories about people who have, like, they've had, like, razor burn for, like, you know, you've seen these people who, like, a friend of mine's husband has just always had a red neck.

Like, he just persistently has had this red neck and started using our products and it went away. Or, like a piercing or a tattoo or. We actually do a lot of things to our skin that are pretty invasive. I mean, lasers all, you know, there's so many different things. Right.

This product, for us, became really popular because during COVID people started wearing masks, obviously, and when you're wearing a mask, you're still talking, you're still eating, and that saliva can create bacteria on your skin. And people were getting maskne. And so very genuinely, people were like, okay, wait, maskne, acne coming from the. Wow. Wow.

Right? And so then people started spraying it, and they were finding that it made such a difference or, like, going on an airplane where you're just in that kind of circulated air. So it really is this product that has done well based on both a combination of, like, word of mouth and then also because it really does work. Like, if you look at our before and afters on our p pages or whatever, like, those are from our community. Those are not third party.

Like, we sent them to someone. It's like, people would tag us, and then we would say, like, oh, my God, can we share this? I'll send you another so's if you let me share it. And then they would say yes. And those, that's how we got our before and afters.

But it really is a product that just genuinely works. Wow. Where does the name tower 28 come from? What does it mean? It's a real lifeguard tower at the intersection of Santa Monica and Venice.

Okay, so the lifeguard towers in LA are numbered. Yep. Um, 28 is the one that I've always gone to with my friends. And so very genuinely, one day, I don't know if you've tried to name anything, but, like, oh, yeah. I mean, this podcast, just a lot of things.

It's really hard to name, but I love the process. I just enjoy it. The name process you don't like. No, it's so, I mean, it's still hard for naming. It is hard because you, if you want to get the trademark, Instagram handle, the web handles domains, all these things.

It's quite hard. And I had one name, couldn't get the trademark. And as we were going through it, a friend of mine sent me a text and she was like, hey, we're all going to the beach. Meet me at tower 28. And I was like, wait a minute, is that the name?

Because lifeguard towers are symbols of safety, right. Which is what I want our products to be, like a symbol of safety. They're also, to me, I really wanted to make products that were for everyone. So I wanted, like, I think it's changing a little bit. But before, if you wanted a product to be clean, it just automatically meant it was really expensive and probably not formulated for a wide range of skin tones or types.

And so I really wanted this to be, like, for everyone. And I feel like the beach is the symbol of a place where everybody gets to go and enjoy a clean and healthy lifestyle. Yep. So that's my tower 28. Yeah.

Unidentified Speaker
Hopefully we could keep the beaches a little cleaner, though, in LA. I mean, it's funny you say that. We actually, we work a lot with heal the bay, which shout out to heal the bay. I think they do such a great job of keeping our oceans clean. They were actually part of the forefront of kind of getting rid of the plastic bags in Los Angeles.

Amy Liu
And so we work a lot with them in terms of not only donating money, which is important, but we also donate time, and then we work with them a lot to figure out, like, what we can be, do, doing to be more sustainable. So, yeah, we make all of our products with a minimum of 50% recycled plastic, up to 100%. What is a, what do you, what is, like, the future of the brand look like? What do you kind of hope long term to do? Like, just, is it kind of just keeping up with what new products and things like that?

Unidentified Speaker
Or are there other things? I guess it also matters, like how the beauty industry as a whole is. Evolving, but, yeah, well, I'll answer that in two parts. So back to even something you had said earlier about, like, kind of figuring out your why or what it is that you're doing this for, or almost like you were saying, talking about your personal glass ceiling. Right.

Amy Liu
I think I'm actually on the other end of that spectrum now, where I'm thinking really long term about, like, what is it that I really want. I started this company thinking that my goal was to make as much money as I was making at my last job and to control my life. Like, to just have a little more control over my day and my time. And arguably, I've done that part now. What I think about is I really genuinely feel like I'm in a unique and privileged position to.

I may not be able to change. I cannot change a lot of things in this world. Right. Like, I'm not influential enough, I'm not powerful enough. But the beauty industry, because I've spent so much time in it and because I know so many important people in it and whatnot, I actually do think that I could uniquely make the beauty industry better because of the fact that I am so connected in it.

And so what I would like to do at this point is really help bring together kind of the unheard voices of today and make them the leaders of tomorrow, because I do think it's very. It is very easy to get into the industry. It is very difficult to scale and be successful. Yeah. And I think coming into this as a young person, I didn't see myself in the images of beauty and aspiration that were put in front of me.

Right. I grew up asian American in a time when there weren't people that looked like me. You know, everybody was, like, blonde and, like, certainly in beach imagery. Right, right. And so I think we have a unique responsibility of defining what beauty looks like and making it something that you can see yourself in.

And the only way to do that is if you can put people in a leadership position that are different and varied. Yeah. Right. So I think long term, that is my bigger thing. I have, like, an education and mentorship program called Beauty Summer School and part of Sephora Accelerate, where I teach and mentor as well, which I think is an amazing program.

So I think that's kind of bigger picture what I'm trying to do also with my own team. Right. Like, I'm trying to hopefully bring up the leaders of tomorrow. And then at the same time, I think there's, like, the thing that I'm looking to do, like, this year and next year, which is just honestly, like, keep up with the growth and expansion again. It's like having a child, like, child is now closer to being, like, in middle school than it is to being in preschool at this point.

And so I'm like, okay, well, I need to find it the best, like, teachers it needs. I need to figure out, like, so I'm growing the team. I'm increasing distribution. We're going into Australia for the first time this year. We're going into.

We'll probably launch Sephora UK next year. We're going into larger footprints at Sephora. So a lot of it is like, just growth and distribution, whether you're talking about products, retail distribution team, etcetera. Awesome. Well, Amy, this has been such a pleasure.

Unidentified Speaker
I feel like I would love to sit and chat all day, but I know we both have stuff to do. And there's been just an incredible, kind of, like, hearing your story of where you came from and really, like, having, having this experience in an industry, but then going and building a successful brand in the industry, which I think a lot of people kind of, like, gloss over of, you know, that, how much that helps. How much it helps to, like, you know, earn your stripes and, like, go out there and, like, really work hard and get some experience in something. And hopefully it's something like an industry that you enjoy and are passionate about to eventually go out and really try to change right for the better. And so this has been a wonderful conversation.

Amy Liu
I appreciate you saying that. I also think we as a society, glamorize being successful at a young age in a lot of ways. And I think there's nothing wrong with doing that and more power to those people who are able to do it. But I also think on the flip side of that, like, if I can be, I don't know, hopefully an inspiration to other people, in some ways, it has. To me, it's like, as a woman of color, a working mom, a woman who was, who was 40 and now plus, who, like, just kind of kept trying to figure out what it is.

Like, I think a lot of people I have friends my age who are like, oh, it's too late for me to, you know, I've already made so many decisions. It's too late for me to go and do something and arguably, like, it is probably too late for me to become a doctor or do something. That takes a lot of training. Yeah, but there are so many things that you can still do. I really just feel like it's never too late to be happy.

Unidentified Speaker
I totally agree. Amy, this has been a pleasure. Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for having me.

Amy Liu
Thanks for having me.