How to Become a Great Leader with David Novak

This episode delves into the essential habits and philosophies behind successful leadership, guided by the insights of David Novak, an acclaimed expert in the field.

1. Learning and applying knowledge is essential for leadership success.
2. Recognition and appreciation significantly influence organizational culture and employee motivation.
3. Leaders must combine confidence with humility to effectively guide and inspire their teams.
4. Actionable advice and practical applications of learning are critical in transforming theoretical knowledge into impactful leadership practices.
5. Continuous personal development and adaptability are crucial for leaders to maintain relevance and effectiveness.

1: Introduction

Overview of David Novak's credentials and leadership philosophy. Discussion on the importance of learning and growth in leadership. Ed Mylett: "David Novak is an expert on leadership, having demonstrated this through his successful career."

2: The Role of Learning in Leadership

Detailed exploration of how leaders can foster a culture of learning and execution within their organizations. David Novak: "Learning is what can really expand your IQ points unlike anything else."

3: Recognition as a Leadership Tool

Insights into how effective recognition can transform organizational dynamics and personal engagement. David Novak: "You can't get anything really big done by yourself."

4: Implementing Learning and Recognition

Discussion on practical methods to apply learning and recognition in everyday leadership. David Novak: "It's not just about learning; it's about applying what you learn to drive results."

1. Cultivate a learner's mindset: Always look for opportunities to absorb new knowledge and skills relevant to your role.
2. Implement a recognition system: Recognize and reward efforts and achievements within your team regularly.
3. Engage in reflective practice: Regularly assess your leadership actions and decisions to identify areas for improvement.
4. Foster open communication: Encourage team members to share ideas and feedback to promote a collaborative environment.
5. Lead by example: Demonstrate the qualities you wish to see in your team members, such as integrity, diligence, and compassion.

Unlock the Secrets of Leadership Mastery with Ed Mylett and David Novak!

Leadership isn't just a role; it's a journey of constant learning and adaptation. This week, I'm excited to host David Novak, the legendary co-founder and former CEO of Yum! Brands, on a deep dive into the dynamics of transformative leadership.

Together, we'll explore not just the fundamentals but the nuances that distinguish GOOD leaders from GREAT ones. Here’s a sneak peek at what you'll discover in this episode:

The synergy between Active Learning and effective action

How to turn knowledge into results

Why continuously seeking fresh ideas is crucial for leadership growth

The critical role of creating a vibrant leadership culture within your organization

Vision and recognition: How these elements fuel motivation and commitment among teams

The real reasons talented employees might leave and how to address these issues proactively

The transformative power of mentoring and coaching, and why storytelling remains a vital skill for every leader

These insights are packed with actionable strategies that can help you elevate your leadership game, whether you're leading a family, heading a startup or steering a multinational corporation. Prepare to be inspired, learn profoundly, and start implementing the kind of leadership practices that not only drive success but also foster genuine admiration and loyalty.

If you're committed to excelling in leadership, this episode is your roadmap to achieving excellence and influencing others positively. Get ready to transform your approach and cultivate a legacy of effective leadership!

People

David Novak, Ed Mylett

Companies

Yum! Brands

Books

"How Leaders Learn: Master the Habits of the World's Most Successful People"

Guest Name(s):

David Novak

Content Warnings:

None

Ed Mylett
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David Novak
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Ed Mylett
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Find out how to bring your ideas to life@dell.com. welcome to now this is the Ed Miley show. All right. Welcome back to the show, everybody. I am so excited to talk to this gentleman here today.

He has the life I aspire to have, and he's just a very fascinating man. He's an expert on leadership, and he's proven it with his results in his life. He's great at recognition, culture also, as well as what I would call it. But he's the co founder, former CEO of Yum, uh, one of the best, biggest brands in the world. He's a New York Times bestselling author already one time over.

And he's got a new book out right now called how leaders Learn, master the habits of the world's most successful people, of which he is one of them. He also just put the group together about Valhalla Golf Club, and I'm going to have him get me out there to play some golf. So anyway, David Novak, let's have a great conversation Today. Thank you for being here. It's my honor.

David Novak
And I really love everything that you do and the fact you want to make a difference in the world. So I think we're kindred spirits. I agree. And I do want to make, I know this interview will do that. Guys, we're going to talk Today.

Ed Mylett
Really detailed stuff about leadership from somebody who's lived it. And one of the really unique opportunities on this show, there's a lot of people that are great at theory and philosophy, and then there's people that have proven it with their track record and the results that they produce. And David's, like, at the Top of the list on this. So really, the Philosophy of the book is Learning. And it resonated with me because, fortunately for me, of all the mistakes I've made as a business person over the years, a long time ago, I kind of, like, identified myself as a learner.

It was sort of like the Persona that I took on, meaning, whatever the experience was, I wanted to deduce as much information from it, glean what I could, whether it was a win or a loss, theoretically, and to learn, and I'm wondering for you, was that something that you established early in life for yourself in business, or do you develop it later? And why is learning fundamental in being a great leader? I think it's something that I developed very early on in my business career because there was so much that I didn't know, and I was just so focused on being as good as I could possibly be. When I started out in business, Ed, what I did was I looked at who had the job above me, and I said to myself, what does that person have that I need to go get? And then I went, did everything I could to learn those skills or those behaviors, and then I would get that job.

David Novak
And I just kept doing that throughout my career. And then ultimately, I ended up in leadership roles. But I really think that learning is what really can expand your iq points unlike anything else. And when I started writing this book, how leaders learn, I started out with the concept that it was the avid learner that really was the successful person, and then that is true to a certain extent. But then the more I thought about it, you can go learn something, but if you don't apply it and pair it with action, then it's useless.

It's like, how many times have you seen people go to a seminar for three days, and then they go back and do the same thing after they went to that three days? It happens all the time. Okay, that's right. But this book is all about how you become an active learner, how you not only learn, you pair it with action and drive results. I'm a big believer that you just can't think about things.

You got to execute them. I mean, if you don't execute, you're never going to have any real credibility. So, you know, learn and then execute. I want to ask you about this distinction because you're right. I do these seminars and it's so frustrating to me when people think the knowledge that they've just gained is powerful, but it's really only powerful if it's applied somewhere, right?

Ed Mylett
Otherwise it's got no vibrational frequency, no power, no impact. And so I wanted to ask you that, like, what is the difference between being a learner? You're starting to go down that road before I interrupted you, and an active learner. And can you give me an example of how that actually manifests itself from learning something to actively learning it? Well, I actually taught a three day seminar when I was at young brands.

David Novak
I taught it to over 4000 people over 17 years and I taught every bit of it. And it was called taking people with you. The price of admission for that course was that you had to come in with the single biggest thing that you were working on that could impact our business and you had to write up a little summary of exactly what you were working on. And that was a beautiful thing for me because I learned of all the things that were going on in the company. And then I taught the taking people with you principles, everything that I had learned about how to take people with you.

Because, Ed, you know this. I mean, you can't get anything really big done by yourself. You've got to have others that you got to bring along with you. So I teach those principles and then I would, in that class, you would have to pair that with action. You would have to develop an action plan that you could take back to make that single biggest thing that you're working on happen in your piece of young brands.

That's active learning. So you're learning with the purpose, you're learning with an approach that says, I'm going to apply this, okay? I'm not just going to read this book. I'm going to read this book and I'm going to be looking for insights that I can go do something tomorrow on. And you know that, that to me, is what really great leaders do.

They are absolute sponges. I'm sure you're a sponge. You didn't get to where you are and articulate your ability to grow yourself without really learning from tons of people and then applying that and then thinking about it in ways that are right for you, that allow you to communicate it. You're a thousand percent right. I started the show.

Ed Mylett
I started doing this because people kind of like you with your show probably, too. They wanted to know what I knew. Ed, you have some value to provide to the world. You know, do your podcast. And so when I started the show, it was mainly me talking, not interviewing.

And I would do that every single week. Now, I do that on Thursdays and Tuesdays I do this. And when I started doing the interviews, it appears to be a service I'm doing for other people. But what it really is has been a service to me because I've got to ask questions and learn from the top people in every field in the world. Here's what's crazy about your work and why it resonated with you.

With me, I was telling my son about three weeks ago, he's like, dad, how come when everyone comes to see you to get coached, it seems like they do 80% of the talking and you do 20? And I said, well, I'm trying to learn from them, Max. I'm trying to deduce. And I literally said out loud, I'm an idea hunter. And then I read your book, and I'm like, he has the term in there, idea hunter.

And so I want you to elaborate. What does that mean to you and everyone that's a leader? Listen to everybody, whether you're a mother or a father or you're a leader of some type. So these principles we're going to go through right now are huge, and they're not in other leadership books. Like, I've never even heard that term before.

So what's an idea hunter to you, and why should every leader have that quality? Well, an idea hunter is somebody that's looking for things that can enhance their life or their business and ideas that they can apply that will just make themselves and the world around them better. And, you know, I'm always looking for great ideas. I mean, and that's why I love my podcast, too. I started this podcast how leaders lead.

David Novak
And, you know, I interview great people just like you do. But I sit there, I ask all the questions. I very rarely give my opinion. I just want them to tell their story that I learned from it. And just like you, it's very interesting.

You know, I post my podcast every Thursday with a great leader. You know, I just, you know, I love doing that. And then we heard from our listeners that they'd kind of like to hear what I have to think on some of these things. So we call it, we posted another podcast called three questions more on Tuesday. You know, so I love that.

And, you know, it's. But anyway, the idea hunter is someone that is just constantly on the lookout for things that can help them grow, help their business grow, help their family. You just get excited about ideas. You're right. I had.

Ed Mylett
It's interesting. Some of the top people in every industry sometimes will come to me to be coached, right? Or mentored or ask questions. I'm shocked at the level of humility of most of these top people and how much they want to learn. I'll never forget, he's become a good friend of mine.

But Alex Rodriguez came to me and said, hey, I'm going to start a podcast. I want to know best practices. Can you help me out? I'm thinking, sure, he'll show up. We'll both have a cup of coffee.

He'll take some sips. Thanks for that. No, I show up at his house. We're at a conference table. He's got his team there.

He's got a notepad out, and he's writing and had a list of questions prepared for me. Now, this is someone who's already been the top level of something, and I find that quality the higher they climb. Here's the thing that fascinates me about somebody like you, and everyone can suffer from this disease, so I want everyone to hear this at whatever level you're at. Small business owner, maybe it's getting a little bit bigger. It's easy to be a learner when you're a beginning leader because you don't know a lot of things and you've not produced a lot of results.

So in your mind, you think, it's a necessity for me to learn to get to a level where I produce results. So I think most people that are on the climb as a leader do that. And then for a lot of people, and maybe even I suffered from this a little bit, at some point, you begin to think you know a lot because you produced a lot of results. The higher you climb, the less you think. You need ideas from other people.

And I look at someone like you who's achieved these incredible results in your life, did that become harder to ward off the temptation not to want to learn from people, even in your own team that might have roles that are, that you're in charge of managing and leading? I've just found that in my life, when people have climbed higher, that's when their learning window begins to close. Did it get harder for you the higher you climbed? Candidly? And have you seen that symptom in the disease of leaders that do climb higher?

David Novak
I think I'll answer it for myself first. I've always had a really healthy dissatisfaction with the status quo. I've always wanted to be a part of something great, and I never wanted to be a one hit wonder. I didn't want to have one good year and then a bad year. So I've always had a hunger that I think made this learning mentality, this habit, become a part of me.

And what I do. It's very interesting, you know, when I look at leaders, the very best leaders, they have an uncanny combination of being humble and confident. Okay? And I should really reverse that. They're confident and humble.

They're confident, Ed, because nobody's going to follow you unless you give them a sense that you know what you're going. I mean, you, you're focused on the future. You have great intentionality. You're going after something that people basically want to be a part of. People will follow you if you have that kind of confidence, okay, in your vision.

But the humility says, I don't know it all. I haven't done it yet. I need you. And that's the thing that I think takes leaders over the top, okay? Because that's when people will give you their heart, you know, not just their head and their hands.

They'll give you their heart. They'll follow you, because they know that they're appreciated and they're valued. And I think that's, that's everything. But it's a very uncanny combination because a lot of people don't have it. Where I see people derail is exactly what you said.

They think they know it all. They think they've got to be the smartest person in the room. A lot of times, they get to a level and they go, oh, I got to act like I know something even if I don't. Okay? And those are the worst.

But I really think that the people that I admire the most as leaders are constantly learning. You mentioned Alex Rodriguez. I'll tell you my athlete story. I'm very good friends with Tom Brady now. Tom Brady, he's constantly learning.

He's probably the most impressive leader I've ever talked to because he knows his trade like you cannot believe. He's very confident, but he's just so hungry for doing the best he can. So let's say Tom Brady goes to Tom House. Tom House is the best throwing coach in the world, okay? He spends three days with Tom House and then goes back and sets up the same way, releases the same way as he did before.

He's done nothing. Okay? But I talked to Tom House. Tom Brady is, like, peppering him with questions, taking notes, writing it in his notebook so that he goes back, that he can truly execute it. And I think that's.

That's. That's what I see, uh, in. In all the very best leaders. I agree with you. I actually wrote my book.

Ed Mylett
It's amazing how much we overlap on this. I love it. I actually. My favorite people have that combination of the two traits, humility and confidence. We're confidence and humility.

Those are the people I like to surround myself with. People with a bunch of confidence with no humility. At some point, I find they burn out and fry. They make a big tactical mistake at some point. And people with no confidence that have a ton of humility, you feel like you have to drag them through life and through business all the time because they're constantly on the ground.

You've got to pick them up. So, 100% agree. I was at something with Tom. I won't get into the details of it. We were learning to do some yoga and some stretching at this event we were at together, and it was a very small event, so we were together the whole time.

And it was funny because he's one of the greatest athletes of all time, and I'm not, but I was finding it easier, me and a couple other guys, to get into these yoga positions than he was. And they kept coaching him so hard on it was, we take a break and they go, okay. They'd walk around to who they need to correct, and they. Almost every time it was Tom, it almost became like a joke, you know? But he wanted to learn how to do it so badly.

Didn't affect his ego, didn't affect his attitude about things. He asked extra questions. So I'm 1000% in agreement with you.

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What's a practical thing? So I was thinking about this. Maybe I've not been that type of leader before. And now I'm listening to you and I'm going, that's been the hole in my game the whole time. I don't create an environment where people share information because they don't feel like it's valued.

So what's a practical step as a leader? If I'm running a company or a team where that I can begin to shift that culture a little bit, where it's an environment where people know I want to elicit information from them and that their feedback is valued. How do you do that if you haven't been doing it? Well, I think the first thing I would do is say, okay, Ed, you want to be a know how builder, okay? You want learning to spread in your organization.

David Novak
So what do you need to learn? I mean, it's very simple, but what are those things that you think would, would make you and your organization better? Then think about your network and think about the world. Who can you go to to learn these traits and then systematically start doing it? You know, like when we started young brands, I really believe that nobody wants to wake up every day, go to work and be a part of something mediocre.

I think people want to wake up and be a part of greatness. Okay. So very early on, I didn't know how we were going to do it, but I set out with the intentionality to build the Yum dynasty. Okay? So I wanted to build know how on you did that, on how you do that.

So at the time we went and visited in the United States, you know, as a partner council, I had a top group. We went to the top performing companies that had consistent results year after year after year. So we went to the Walmarts. Okay, we went to the Southwest Airlines at the, we went to Home Depot, and then we came back and we codified what these great companies do, and those became our Yum dynasty drivers. And then we worked on getting better at those things every single day.

Now, the one thing that everybody said was the most important thing that they focused on in their company was creating a culture where everyone counts, okay? And that was, I don't care who it was. It wasn't just Southwest Airlines, it was Home Depot. You know, even back then when you talk to Jack Welch, okay, and Ge had a great track record back then. He talked about the importance of his culture and making sure people are developed and all this, they all talked about it in their own different ways.

And I think you can't have a culture where everyone counts unless you let them know that they're valued. And that's why I was such a big proponent and I think really differentiated my leadership career on the basis of recognition. Can we talk about that? Because that's a part of the book as well. It's one of the benchmarks.

Ed Mylett
I'm a big believer that what you want people to do you should recognize for, not threaten for. But you said two things here. I'm gonna let you kind of go on this because, boy, I love what you're saying. Twice you've said people want to be a part of something great. And it's amazing to me how many leaders just forget to talk about, we're gonna make history, we're gonna do something big.

Stretching vision. They get so caught up in the day to day, right? And then the other thing I think human beings want is they want to be recognized. They want to feel special. So just, I'm going to let you go on those two topics.

As a leader, how important is it of casting a vision and sense of the historic sense of doing something great and at the same time having great recognition? Yeah. Oh, I think you need both of those so, so badly. You know, I really believe in having a future back vision. Where are you going to take your business?

David Novak
And then really, this is where I want to go. And then work your way back to where you are today. And what are those steps that you're going to have to take to get to where you want to go? That future backed vision, I think, is absolutely critical, and the leaders have it now. When you have that kind of vision and it's elevated, people really want to embrace it.

We started out with this notion of building the Yam dynasty, and we had great success. And then all of a sudden I said, you know what? We can do more now. We've been best practice than everybody else. What we want to do now is to become the defining global company that feeds the world.

What did that mean? I wanted to have a recognition culture that people wanted to emulate. They'd come to us now as a best practice company to how do you recognize your people? How have you become so famous for recognition? We wanted our brands to be vibrant everywhere we do business, okay?

And then we wanted to feed the world, not just people, our food, but we wanted to help the hungry, okay? And we wanted to feed the hungry. So we tied in with the World food program as our social responsibility effort. And, you know, sometimes I wonder, why did our company do so well? You know, it's just like we were three brands.

Everybody's fast food, pizza, Taco Bell, cake. Why did we do so well? I think it's because God said, hey, we're valuing people, we're feeding people, we're recognizing people. And I think when you do the right things, the right things happen. So this vision thing was huge.

And while I'm rambling, I'll ramble on recognition. Okay, you're not rambling. I'll tell you a story that impacted my life, Ed, more than anything. I became the chief operating officer, and I write about this in the book of Pepsi Cola company. I didn't know anything about operations, but how do you.

What do you do when that happens? You got to learn from the people that do. So I, part of my routine was I go out on Monday, leave on Monday, come back on Friday. But I go into the bottling plants and meet it and have coffee at 06:00 in the morning, take donuts in, talk to people. So I'm in St.

Louis, Missouri, and I'm talking to a group of route salesmen, people who drive the trucks for Pepsi. And I'm talking about merchandising, which is critical because merchandising is what you got to have in the stores. And. And so there are about ten people there, roundtable. And I'm looking, you know, talking to everyone.

They say, hey, listen, if you want to learn about merchandising, you should talk to Bob. Bob is the best at merchandising anybody we've ever seen. And they. Everybody started heaping all this praise on Bob. And then I looked across the table at him, just like I'm looking at you here, and he's crying.

And I said, bob, why are you crying? He said, well, I've been in this company for 47 years, and I didn't know people felt this way about me. Now, that hit me in the gut. So I said to myself, from that point on, I was going to make recognition the number one behavior that I would drive in our company. And so then I said, how do I do it?

I got to be president of KFC. And I said, well, I want to have fun doing it. I don't want to be just the normal CEO that's got the, you know, the blue suit on, the red tie, you know, walking around. I said, I want to have fun. So I found this floppy chicken, a rubber chicken, okay?

And I started making that my recognition award. And I started recognizing people when I saw them doing the things that I knew would drive our business. And that led to an evolution for me in the sense that I started to understand the power of purposeful recognition. And I write about this in the book because, and you mention it, what are those behaviors that you know are going to drive your results when you see them, recognize them? And the big thing that I think I did differently is I had fun doing it.

I did it with my floppy chickens and people saw how it moved people. People would cry when they got this floppy chicken. One of our engineers died, and in his coffin, he had his floppy chicken. I mean, that shows you just the power of it. Now, what happened was this took off, and everybody, all the leaders at KFC developed their own personal recognition awards.

Like, if you played basketball or whatever, you might give away a mini basketball or. Or, you know, one guy had a fasten your seatbelts award. Everybody created their fun awards, and they started giving away when they saw people doing the behaviors that we knew would drive results. And this took off all around the world. And people said, hey, this won't work in China, you know, because of China.

Brother number one is, you know, key, you know? Right. People love to have fun in China. People love to have fun in Russia. People love to have fun in India.

They loved it everywhere we went. And because people, there's a deep down human need to be recognized for what you bring to the party and to feel valued. And if a leader understands that and understands recognition and purposeful recognition, they are so far ahead of everybody else. The one thing I would say that is a mind blowing factor I have seen. We researched this at Yum, and every other big company I know researched it.

You know, one of the two reasons why people leave companies, Ed. Number one, they don't feel appreciated. And number two, they don't get along with their boss. Okay? And those are tied together.

So that's why we focused on recognition, and then we focused on leadership development to try to give the people who had the privilege of leading people the skills they needed to be better coaches, not bosses. I hate the word boss. You know, we called them coaches. And that's why, frankly, I taught taking people with you. And, you know, when I retired, Ed, I said, what the hell am I going to do now?

Well, I wanted to focus on what gives me joy, and it's developing leaders. I'm trying to make the world a better place by developing better leaders. And that's why I wrote this book. David, this is so good. I got.

Ed Mylett
I love this because we haven't had this topic in a while on the show, and we certainly never discussed it this way. This is, like, right up my alley. I love what we're talking about right now. And if you're listening to this, you know, be an active listener and learner. Right?

Like, don't just listen. Don't just learn. Actively listen and learn. To go back to the early interview, ask yourself, how good are you at recognizing people? How much of it is a part of your culture as a father or mother, how good are you at it as a business leader?

How people, that, that notion that people leave because, you know, they don't get along with their boss and they're not paid attention to. It's hard to not get along with somebody who feel likes listening to you. Just that alone helps you get along with somebody. The combination of listening and recognition. I know when I walk into companies, most of the time, whether that is a company that facilitates open feedback or doesn't, and whether they have world class recognition or not, you can feel it.

It's a frequency, it's an energy in a company. And then these folks that don't have it wonder why they can't move like other companies, can't pivot and change. It's the lack of a place of open feedback, which is listening, in my opinion, and a recognition based culture where we are trying to find a way to make you feel good, not catch you doing something wrong, because people will live up to how you treat them, and they will do more for recognition than they will money. That's just my opinion. I couldn't agree with you more.

David Novak
And that's why I write about trusting and positive intentions. You know, how many companies just create all this bureaucracy trying to catch the one 10th of 1% of the hundred percent that that goes wrong? They put these processes in. I love like how Kendra Scott has a great philosophy for customers. When they come in her, her shops, okay, and she trains people.

She doesn't give a manual with like, you know, 20 page, you know, 20 inches of rules. She says, how would you treat your sister, the sister role? I mean, that is, that is brilliant. That is so good, you know? You know, but, you know, I think that she and kind, they believe in recognition.

You know, Southwest Airlines believes in recognition. All the great company believes in recognition. But the leader, it has to start with the leader. I know you know this, you know, because, you know, I know how you think. You know, leaders cast a shadow.

People do what the leader does, okay? And if you don't show people that you value them, if you don't show them that you, you believe in recognition, the people below you won't do it either. They just have a tendency. And that's where you find those dead companies. You find those dead companies where that leader is just sitting in their office, sitting on their ass doing nothing, you know?

You know, thinking that they're doing something, but not doing what they could be doing. They might be really smart, but they're only getting about, you know, a 10th of what they could get out of. That organization, and they don't know it because they're not self aware, which is what you talk about later in the book, too. Self awareness as a leader, also a trait that's one of my favorite. Even if you have an odd personality quirk, it becomes redeeming when you're aware of it and make fun of it.

Ed Mylett
Even if you have a bad temper a little bit, everybody, which is a not a great quality as a leader, at least if you were aware of it and made fun of yourself about it, it would lose some of its sting. I'm not saying have a bad temper, but self awareness is huge. So if you merge these two things together for me, because you own this content, because you've lived it, what's managed two up and two down mean? I know what it means, but I want you to tell them after reading and self awareness wrapped around it, okay? Manage two up and two down.

David Novak
I think if you're coming up in an organization, you obviously want to have a great relationship with your boss. Okay?

So you need to know how they're thinking, what they're thinking, and you want them to know that you have their best interest at heart and that you're trying to help them in the organization. But you got to manage two up. You just can't focus on your boss. You got to focus on your boss's boss or go as high up as you possibly can. Okay?

And that's when you got to realize, when you get in with that person, that's one level or two levels up or more. That's when you got to make the most of it, because that's when you show people you've got potential. You're not just doing the job that you're in. You want, when you get a chance to have that meeting or be with that person, you want to go in and you want to talk about the things that you would be doing if you were them or what the company could be working on, the shows that you think about the business bigger. And so that person's going to look at you when it's time to look.

When they have your review process, they're going to say, oh, boy. Yeah. You know, that person has a heck of a lot of potential. Okay. So it's, you know, it's two up, two down.

You have to motivate the people that work for you. You really do your direct reports, and you want to. You want them to feel a part of your team. There's a law on leadership, which I believe is no involvement, no commitment. So you definitely want to get people involved and make sure that every one of your direct reports knows that you need them, you value them, and that you're looking for them to make you better because you know that you need them.

Okay, the two down is going to the front line. Go as close as you possibly can to the customer where it really happens, and make sure that whatever you're thinking is really, really happening, where it matters most, which is with the front line, who's making it happen for your customers, and make sure that it really works. You need to validate, you know, your own assumptions and the thoughts that you may have. But I think that two up, two down is a great way to think about it. And, yeah, I'd love it.

If you really want to grow in a company, you better show the people above your boss that you got a heck of a lot of potential. Hey, guys, if you need to hire, you need indeed. You know, in all of my businesses, and I've been blessed to have several of them, I've used indeed now for a number of years. And the main reason I do it is if you're like me, I don't want to waste a bunch of time interviewing people that aren't qualified for the positions that I have. It's one of the hardest jobs in the world, right?

Ed Mylett
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I connect with people who have a sense of themselves, their strengths and their weaknesses. Right? Couldn't agree more. You know, that's where I had what I called my three by five exercise, okay? And every year I do it myself.

David Novak
And I put my, I do a three by five card and I write down, who am I today and what do I want to be tomorrow? Okay? So, for example, believe it or not, when I was coming up, I was really enthusiastic, really passionate. That's hard to believe. Yeah.

But you know what? When you're 26, 27 years old, you're working around a lot of people because you're getting promoted faster than other people. You got to temper that enthusiasm, you got to temper that passion so that people will see you as more mature. But you have to be aware of how people think of you. You know, in my book, taking people with you, I write about, you know, my leadership style, and I'm a marketing person.

That's how I came up. But in marketing, I always ask the question, what perception, habit, or belief do you need to change, build or reinforce to grow your business or grow yourself? Okay? So when it came to people and leading, I would always ask myself, what perception, habit, belief do I have to change, build or reinforce to take people with me? And they might say, like, when I was at Pepsi, Wayne Calloway was the chairman of PepsiCo.

I loved Wayne. I was with Paul Bearer at his funeral. We loved each other. Okay? But he saw me as a marketing guy.

I went to him one time and I said, you know, and I'd always go in with those four or five ideas to show him I have potential. And then he finally asked me faithfully, he said, you know, David, what do you want to do with your career? I said, well, I want to be a division president. He said, well, you're a really good marketing guy. And I said, well, Dwayne, I want to be a division president.

He says, you're a really good marketing guy. I said, wayne, I want to be a president. He says, I'll make you president of marketing. We could improve Pepsico's marketing function. But when I walked out of that room, I had the self awareness.

I had the self awareness that I was going to have to demonstrate that I was more than just a marketing guy, that I wasn't just an airy, fairy creative person, that I could make money, you know, work with the front line, get things done. And that's when the job came open, to be the chief operating officer for the Pepsi Cola company. And I went in and I took on a new challenge, and I definitely learned from this new challenge. But it was like I said to my boss, I said, look, you know, Craig weather, I said, if I don't do a good job in this job, you can fire me in six months. Put me back in my, fire me, put me back in marketing.

But you got to give me a chance. I begged him for the opportunity and I got that job. And that's how I end up being the president of KFC. That's awesome story. That is an awesome story.

Ed Mylett
And what I got to say, everybody is like, to some extent, it's read the room. You know, I've watched my intensity over the years be a bit too much for people when I was younger. And I learned to temper that and soften it to some extent, actually even poke fun at myself for having it, just like what you just did. And it's an important quality of a great leader. I've been dying to ask you this question, and it's not in the book, but it's got to do with leadership.

So maybe the most read business book the last decade or so is good to great by Jim Collins. Have you read the book? You know what I'm talking about. Okay. I'm interested if you can be candid, philosophically, whether you agree.

And so, everybody, let me just put it to you this way. Collins premise is basically, get the right people on the bus if you're a leader of a company. But that ironically, most companies aren't led by great visionary, super charismatic, high energy people. That's a, that's an overall summary. That's not fair to what the book truly says, but I'm making a generality.

And then I always thought, yeah, that's true. But then I've looked at business. I'm like, well, that's not Steve Jobs, that's not Sam Walton, that's not Elon Musk, that's not Mark Cuban, that's not Jack Welch. So I've watched some pretty charismatic, vision stretching, dynamic people lead great movements in my career. And so I've always wanted to ask somebody who is an expert and has known these actual people, you know them, and you've seen companies of all different types succeed and fail.

Where do you come down philosophically on that? Well, I think that Jim Collins, if I recall in that book, talked about these leaders that he's talking about being level five leaders. They didn't necessarily have to have that charisma and all that kind of good stuff, okay? And I think it is possible to be an excellent CEO without having a ton of charisma. But I.

David Novak
I think having a little charisma actually helps a hell of a lot. Now, here's what he's trying to get at, is that the leader that's got all this charisma and is in is a promoter, okay? Then you know that that leader, okay, that leader is not. You got to watch out for them. So that's why he talks in his book about the importance of being a clock builder, okay?

And that's putting process and discipline around what really matters. So I would say, hey, if I could have somebody on my. In my company leave my company that had charisma, okay, that could fire up the troops, that could be inspirational and had an appreciation for building the clock process and discipline around what really matters, I'd take that person over a, let's say, a level five, boring leader that, you know, everybody really appreciates and for how smart they are now, they both can be very effective. But, you know, leadership has to flex, you know? You mentioned Elon Musk.

I read his book. The book. Walter Isaacson's autobiography or biography on Elon Musk. Have you read that yet, Ed? No.

You gotta read it. Okay. Okay. Cause Elon Musk is. Is a furniture breaker.

I wouldn't do hardly anything that he does. Cause he's just damn. He's just damn tough on people, you know? Yeah. But what he's tried to do and to be a true innovator, he had to break some furniture to get it done.

And he worked his ass off, and he's got his vision, and he got people around him who ultimately will follow him. He's not worried too much about taking people with you. You kind of find you get on his highway or you get off of it. Okay. Yeah.

Ed Mylett
And that's rare, right? I look at it like, to be honest with you, by the way, I've recommended Collins book as much as any book I've ever recommended. But I've also looked at business, and I think what he's warning against is these super high energy charismatic leaders lack humility, sometimes lack self awareness, lack that, lack the ability to still learn. So to me, if you're a high energy, super charismatic leader, you especially need to read David's book because it's, it comes with the territory. When you're a big driver and high energy and visionary, you really better have the skills of learning, fostering this environment that he's describing, recognizing other people.

So to me, it's kind of a combination of both. I just love your answer about that, too. What about process and discipline? Like, but you, you use it, like in the book, like a golf comparison is the way that you do it in the book. You know what I'm talking about?

David Novak
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to have a process and discipline around what really matters. In every business and every team, there's, there's things that really matter. And if you want to have great execution, you can't leave them to chance. You got to have process and discipline.

So think about, let's just take Jason Day, for example, okay? A great golfer. You watch him on television, right? He closes his eyes. Okay?

You know, he visualizes the shot. Okay? What's a good shot look like? Okay. He opens his eyes, he sees that shot.

He goes in there, and he does the same thing every single time because he knows that he's got, visualization is the key to him really pulling off the shot. All these guys have great golf swings, but do they see the shot? And if you see the shot, you have a real good chance of hitting that shot.

And I think in business, you have to have process and discipline around what really matters. If you want to make your customers happy, you got to measure customer satisfaction in some kind of way and hold people accountable for that. You know, measures a lot of times can be boring, but they're very important because measures show people what you really expect, as you well know. And, but those measures should be around what really matters. You know, so many times people have a thousand measures.

They get, they're measuring everything. I remember when I went to Pizza hut, you know, I couldn't believe the measurement book we had. And I said, people, I think people can only remember what, three of the ten commandments. What makes you think you're going to remember 20 things here? And all these things are not created equal.

So leaders have to be disciplined enough to figure out what really matters in their business and then put the, build the clock around it. So good. I just think in listening to you, how cool this time in history is that for free right now, somebody is in your brain about this topic because that this space exists now 25, 30 years ago. There'll be no access to you in a live conversation. It's like, I guess what it goes to is my gratitude for what we're doing right now.

Ed Mylett
Every once in a while in these interviews, I go, this is crazy good. This is crazy good. And I want to acknowledge that with you. I'm just so grateful for your wisdom. It's just very special that we get to talk about this.

I told her we're going to move all over the place, but I've had a hard time over the years letting people go. And one of the things I've had other people in my companies tell me one of my strengths is that I believe in people so deeply. It's also I've been criticized for. You know, I see people as they can be, sometimes not as they are. And over the years, I've seen them as they can be, and they just never became it.

And I've had a hard time letting people go. So literally not doing it. And then when I do it, not being incredibly great at it, frankly, it's a huge weakness of mine, and you talk about it in the book. So I wanted to ask you about that. Letting people go both ways, go sort of the top and go bye bye.

David Novak
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, first of all, I love your approach. If I. If I got a bet on somebody, I'll bet on somebody that's rounding up on people and believing in them and seeing the potential that they have. But I think what people like yourself, myself, we had to learn, okay, is the importance of holding people accountable.

And as much as you might believe in a person, if they're not executing what needs to be done, then you have to do something about it. Now, my big belief is you coach first.

You have to coach first, and you give people a chance to go change and take that coaching, get the self awareness, because sometimes people don't have good self awareness. And then if it doesn't work, I'd really watch very closely how that person is taking the feedback. And if they're not really making some changes, then you hit them with a two by four. Okay? You.

You are like, hey, listen, pal, you know, my friend, if you don't change, it's this a bad ending to this movie, okay? And then if they don't change, then you fire. Okay. Then you. And.

But you can look yourself in the mirror because you know that you've coached them. There's no. The worst thing that can happen is when somebody comes into your office and is surprised that you feel this way about them and you're taking them out, there should be no surprises. Okay? But I think what really happens and is really great is when you have your approach, you give people feedback.

You're telling them that they have a chance to be something, and they soar. I'll give you a great example of this. I was so blessed to work with as our original chairman at young Brands, Andy Pearson. At the time, he was around 70 years old. I was 44.

So, you know, and we also had Jamie Dimon on our board. Okay? And I became the. I was the CEO. And.

And he said to me, he said, david, you and Jamie Dimon are going to be the two best CEO's of your era. Now, Jamie Dimon certainly was. I'm not putting myself in his league at all. Okay? But what I'm saying is, is that that confidence, that belief that he had in me and what I could become and the kind of results that I could drive, man.

And he was a tough guy, okay? Which even made it better because he had high standards. And that's another reason why you have to take out the underperformers, because if you allow that, that demotivates the top performers. Okay? So, you know, really, you know, I think that having the fact that Andy Pierson had those high standards would say that to me.

And he. I respected him so much, man. I would have gone through a wall for him. But it gave me confidence that I needed to do because I was, frankly, I don't know what that. What's that phrase that I'm.

It's a little technical for me. Imposter syndrome. Imposter syndrome, whatever. You know, I mean, we're all, you know, when you're moving up, you're all faking your way through something at some point. That's right.

Even Tom Brady said, when you don't have confidence, confidence, fake it until you make it. You know, it's like, you know, it's kind of in our. You know. But, you know, I think that's how I look at it, Ed. I really think it's a really important role for a leader.

And because I really believe this one final comment on this, it comes back to, do you want to be a part of something great or not? The best thing you can do as a leader is have an a team mentality. If you're on this team, you got to be an a player. Gosh, it's so good. I mean, God almighty, that gets people excited.

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Ed Mylett
$45 up front for three months, plus taxes and fees. Promoting for new customers for limited time unlimited, more than 40gb per month slows full terms at mint mobile.com dot. I read a book a long time ago. It was about the Celtics. I'm messing this up, of course, but it was teen ego that back at one point, you know, the leaders didn't have ego, but the team did.

Meaning when you throw this uniform on, you just play different. When you're a Celtic, the Yankees have that. If you can create that culture in your company, like this is the a team, we got greatness happening here. When you get to the top of this thing, greatness is going to happen for you. I just really believe that creating that culture.

I want to ask you about mentors. So you mentioned Jamie Dimon. I remember it. Right. Sandy Weil kind of mentored Jamie when he was a young guy.

David Novak
Until he fired him. Until he fired him. That's right. Exactly. But he was a.

Ed Mylett
It was a mentor to him when he was young, and then he did, he did fire him. But in your case, did you have a mentor? And should a leader, a CEO of a company, find a mentor outside, do you believe, of creating mentoring environments within your company where someone sort of got a ride along mentor? Or is that not part of the structure that you've set up over the years? What we tried to focus on was creating a coaching mentality.

David Novak
Okay, okay. You know, a lot of people think that it's, when you're a mentor, you got to commit to that person. It's not just a, you know, I mean, it takes time. So you can't really mentor a lot of people, in my opinion, because I think it takes such a, such a big commitment. But, you know, Andy Pearson was a mentor.

I was very lucky. I would, or I'd rather say blessed, okay. That when I was coming up, I never worked for somebody who didn't run a function or end up running a company. They were all great leaders, you know, and they all invested in me. So I never had the bad, bad boss.

I am so glad. You know, I get asked about, how do you handle a bad boss all the time? I said, well, it's a tough one for me to answer because I never had one. Okay. But I had all these people who invested me, but they were coaches, you know, but I never really, you know, I would go to people that could coach me on things.

Like when I became CEO, I didn't have any financial experience with Wall street, so I finagled my way into Warren Buffett's office in Omaha. Okay. And I went to see him basically for 17 years every year, and we became friends, and I learned from him. And he taught me so much about how to deal with Wall street. Let me give you a good.

This is a great insight. I think your listeners will like this. He talked to me about the concept of sober selling. He said, david, I bet you really love your brands. Oh.

I said, yeah, I do. And he said, do you ever tell people what could go wrong? And I said, no, I'm really trying. I'm selling my company, to be honest with you. I don't really tell them what he said, tell people what could go wrong.

It'll give you more credibility. And so what I did is I started going at the end, I said, now, I've told you all about our company, but let me tell you the three things that could go wrong if you invested in our company. Many times they'd start arguing with me and tell me, oh, that's not going to happen. It didn't matter. The fact that I.

But that was. That was. But that's what you can get when you seek out learning from others, when you seek out best practices. See, that's the power. See my.

Look, what happened to my iq points. I don't. I guarantee if I took an IQ test and I've said this many, many times to many, many people, I'd probably just be average. I don't think I'm really any smarter than anybody else, but my learning IQ is off the charts. And that's how I survive.

That's how I flourished, is because of that, that mindset. Likewise, my iqs average to maybe subpar. You said that in the beginning of the interview, by the way, I was gonna stack that great point, that as you're learning, you're stacking IQ points. I never looked at it that way, but that probably explains why I became moderately successful in my life, because it certainly wasn't based on my baseline. It was based on what I acquired through learning.

I think another reason, Ed, I'm going to say, why are you successful? Is that you're other directed. You really genuinely care about other people learning and other people gaining your knowledge. I think the people who have the blessings that you and I have had that. Keep them to ourselves.

They're just being selfish. And when people know that you've got their best interests and heart, they're going to. They're going to. They're going to. They're going to buy what you're into.

And I don't mean just sales. I'm just talking about they're going to buy into who you are, what you're all about, and want to help you get to where you want to go. And it just happens that way. What a great point. You know, you interviewed, like, a hundred great leaders for this book.

Ed Mylett
I think I'd be remiss if I didn't share that with everybody else. I mean, there's 8100 leaders in this book, so it's not just you. And I'm wondering, could you deduce any common traits between them, common practices of active learning, anything that you saw that overlapped or traits that stood out amongst these people? I think the biggest trait is what I talked about earlier, the combination of confidence and humility. But I do think that all of them learned how to listen.

David Novak
I remember talking to Ken Chenault, who had a great track record running American Express. He thought he was really good at listening, and he found out that when he went into meetings, they called it the kin zone, because if you didn't say what he was thinking, you ought to say, he went into this zone and nobody thought he was paying attention to anything. Okay? And he learned that. And he said, so I really, really tried to be a much better listener, and it took me five years before finally someone said, hey, Ken, you're a really good listener.

Ed Mylett
Okay? But I think listening is. Is a really key trait. The other thing that I think the really best leaders are, they're pattern thinkers. They're very good at learning what's going on in one industry or with their competitors, or.

David Novak
And then saying, okay, if it's working over here, how can I make something similar work in my business? Okay. And then they come up with new ideas. I mean, I can tell you that's how I developed most of my best ideas when I was working with Frida Lay and Pepsi and young brands. I did pattern thinking.

I saw what other people were doing, and that led to cool ranch Doritos. I saw what other people were doing, and that led to the lovers line of pizzas. I saw what other people were doing, and it led to adding know how, building to our culture, all these things. So it was like, hey, if they're doing it over here and it's successful, why can't we do it? What a great key.

Ed Mylett
What a great. I was thinking when we were prepping, I got. We're running out of time. This flew by. Like, we should do three of these.

I'm eating this up because to me, this is like, this is life. This is what I thrive on. This is the topic that the people that you've been around and what you've achieved yourself is just so remarkable. I was prepping for this, and I was thinking, who are my favorite leaders I've had in my life that I worked with her for? And it's really interesting, I got to tell you guys, just to confirm all of his philosophy and theory here, they were the ones who listened the best to me, that asked me the most questions that I thought valued my opinion the most.

They're also the ones that didn't just publicly recognize me, but privately, and would tell me, Ed, I'm proud of you. Ed. You're special. I remember those conversations 30 years later. You just shared one from 30 years ago yourself, where someone tells you that it's these.

This private recognition in addition to public is. Is so significant. But as I watch you and I've watched other leaders, I want to ask you one last question. This is something I've noticed. It doesn't have to do with learning, but it's a leadership question.

Because I've asked you so much about the book. I still want them to get the book right, by the way, guys. It's how leaders learn. How leaders learn. Master the habits of the world's most successful people.

By the way, I did another intro about his first book that you can also go get, which he's published as well, which is taking people with you. But go get this one. How leaders learn. For now, I want to ask you about storytelling. I'm watching you, and you're great at it.

You're a great storyteller. And most leaders I've been around that can move. People have bought into the idea of facts tell, but stories sell. And if they can learn this little nuanced ability when they're listening to people, to tell them a story that paints a picture somehow, it's just a little thing I've noticed over the years that seems very common amongst the people that can captivate humans and lead them is the vast majority know how to tell a story, and they're conscious of learning to tell more stories rather than just spew data and information. I'm just wondering if you've noticed that, too.

It's something that you've had to work on. Have you just always been good at it? Just your overall thought about that? I think storytelling is the way that people will remember what you have to say. I mean, people will remember stories.

David Novak
And it took me a while to pick up this trait. You know, it's funny, I look at this conversation that we're having, and I've loved every bit of this. I mean, it's been so much fun for me. And I can articulate what I believe and tell you stories, you know? But if.

If I gotta talk about pattern thinking, I'll talk about, you know, cool ranch Doritos. If I gotta talk about failure, I'll talk about crystal Pepsi. You know, these are things that happened in my life. If I gotta talk about recognition, I'll tell that Bob story, you know? Yes.

But let me tell you something. For all of you coming up in your career, this does not happen when you just get out of school. It takes you time and grade to really pick up these traits. People don't believe it when I tell them I used to be a terrible presenter. I used to say, you know, a thousand times I would tell a stupid, goofy joke just to relax myself before I even got into my presentation.

And now people will actually pay me to give speeches, you know, and it's like, I can't believe this is actually happening to me. Okay, but it's not something that you roll out of bed and pick up. But you should learn from the fact that as you're going through life, think about those stories that you see that you can apply to your business and with your family, because people will remember what you're trying to say so much better if you can get people to drink the water for themselves. I always say, telling isn't selling. You know, it isn't.

You know, you want to have people draw their own conclusions because it's infinitely more powerful when you tell those stories. It makes a difference. When I tell that Bob story, everybody says, God, I got to do a lot better job. That's right. Recognizing one other point on this, unfortunately.

You know, just four weeks ago, my wife Wendy passed away. She was my truth teller in life. We were married for 49 years. I'm so sorry. And my daughter did a eulogy.

And I did a eulogy. And when I first walked into that church, Ed, I couldn't get one sentence out. I cried. I still have waves of tears. I still do.

But I went back in, did it again, went back in, did it again, went back in, and did it again. But we gave my wife such a tribute, and it was such a celebration because of one reason. We told everybody stories about Wendy Louise Novak, and it was those stories that people. And you know what? People walked out of this.

It was an unbelievable service. We had Drew Holcomb come, who sang, you know, our favorite songs, fly gratitude. I wrote a song for Wendy that was sung at the. That I'd written. I gave it to our 48th wedding anniversary.

And then we had amazing grace, and we had a great. The servant, the minister was incredible. You know, it was just. But people walked out of that. That service and said, I'm going to be a better person.

I need to love my wife more, you know? And they remember the stories, and, you know, that's what. That's what people. That's what people resonate with. And, boy, I mean, I'm with my wife like you cannot believe, okay?

But the stories and the moments and the memories that we have with each other, you know, I'm trying to move it from being sad to glad, okay? But it's. It's those stories that. The things that she did that I remember that had impacted my life so much, and that's. That's what I think it's all about.

And storytelling is critical. God bless you. I'm so sorry for your loss. I get emotional, too, so I just would never know. That happened four weeks ago with the way you showed up today.

Ed Mylett
You're just such a remarkable man. And thank you for being willing to share that with everybody. What a. What a blessed conversation. I am so grateful that we did this together today, and I'll say an extra prayer for you and your family tonight, as well.

And part of that prayer is gratitude for such a great experience today. I'm immensely grateful for the time, so thank you so much, David. I'm grateful. I was really just so honored to be asked to be on this show. I mean, this is an amazing job that you do.

David Novak
I mean, you're doing good in the world. I know you're a happy guy because the happiest guys in the world are other directed, and you are. Well, so are you, brother. You just helped so many people today, and I just cannot get over the way you've showed up with this energy and your kind and giving heart and your brilliant. So, I'm so grateful for today.

Ed Mylett
Wow. Just, just wow, wow, wow. It's David Novak, everybody, and how leaders learn, master the habits of the world's most successful people, of which he is absolutely one of them. And today was just awesome. I.

This is one I probably don't need to ask you all to share. I think it was probably shared about 40 minutes ago already when we just got going. But again, grateful for the time today, David and everybody else, God bless you and max out your life.

This is the Ed and Milan show.