Inside the longevity movement selling a longer lifespan

This episode delves into the burgeoning "longevity movement," which aims to extend human lifespan through a variety of controversial wellness practices and technologies.

1. The longevity movement is driven largely by wealthy men aiming to extend their lifespans through extreme and often costly health practices.
2. Influential figures like Andrew Huberman and Peter Attia help popularize these practices through podcasts and online content, often supported by celebrities like Joe Rogan.
3. The movement has gained additional momentum during the COVID-19 pandemic, reflecting increased health anxieties.
4. Critics argue that many longevity practices lack solid scientific backing and may lead to unnecessary medical interventions.
5. There is a broader critique that the movement could distract from more inclusive public health efforts.

1: Introduction to Longevity

Host Cheryl Sutherland introduces the topic and guest Ann Hui, setting the stage for a discussion on the longevity movement. Cheryl Sutherland: "Today we delve into a movement that's selling not just wellness, but extended life."

2: The Longevity Movement

Ann Hui describes the longevity movement's scope, its practices, and its major proponents. Ann Hui: "It's a whole community...going to sometimes rather extreme lengths to try to extend their life."

3: The Science and Skepticism

The episode explores the scientific underpinnings and skepticism surrounding longevity practices. Timothy Caulfield: "The evidence...is often not rock solid."

4: Societal Impacts and Ethical Concerns

Discussion on the broader societal implications and ethical concerns of the longevity movement. Ann Hui: "This obsessive pursuit of health...can be a distraction from broader public health goals."

1. Moderate Sun Exposure: Aim for early morning sun exposure to help regulate your body's clock.
2. Balanced Diet: Focus on a well-rounded diet rather than extreme dietary restrictions.
3. Regular Exercise: Incorporate both strength and cardiovascular training into a weekly routine.
4. Mindful Meditation: Consider integrating mindfulness practices to enhance mental well-being.
5. Skeptical Consumption: Evaluate health advice critically, especially when it involves significant expense or drastic lifestyle changes.

Over the last few years, a movement has grown where followers are spending thousands of dollars on rigorous and sometimes extreme health practices with the goal of extending their lives. The leaders of the “longevity” movement reach their mostly male audience largely through YouTube and podcasts.

Longevity has become a major wellness industry, with big money involved. But critics say the science behind it is often unfounded and misleading. The Globe’s demographics reporter Ann Hui spoke to the men who practice longevity, those who preach it, and those who criticize it.

People

Ann Hui, Cheryl Sutherland, Robbie Bent, Andrew Huberman, Peter Attia

Companies

Othership

Content Warnings:

None

Ashley
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Brian Johnson
If the future could talk to us, what they might say is that we have reached a point of technological and medical progress where death is no longer inevitable.

Cheryl Sutherland
That's tech entrepreneur Brian Johnson, who has an ambitious goal in life above all things.

Brian Johnson
Don't die.

Cheryl Sutherland
While the timeless quest for eternal life may sound extreme or, let's be honest, impossible, there's a growing movement of people with similar goals.

Influencers, often on YouTube or podcasts, offer rules or protocols, as they call them, to live as long and as healthily as possible.

This movement is called longevity, and it spawned a new kind of wellness industry with big money involved.

Over the past few years, it's gained traction with millions of men. And yes, it's mostly men who are looking to, quote, optimize their lives.

Ann Huey is a demographics reporter at the Globe. She spoke to the people who preach longevity and those who criticize it. And she's on the show to tell us about what she learned.

I'm Cheryl Sutherland, and this is the decibel from the Globe and Mail.

Hi, Anne. Great to have you today.

Ann Hui
It's so nice to be here with you, Cheryl.

Cheryl Sutherland
So you've done a deep dive into this longevity movement, but to start, can you just tell me, what exactly does longevity mean in this context?

Ann Hui
Longevity is an idea that has become extraordinarily popular, especially online, over the last, I'd say, five years or so. It's a whole community of people, mostly men, who are going to sometimes rather extreme lengths to try to optimize their health, optimize their bodies, and often with the explicit goal of trying to extend their life. Some of the more extreme people have the explicit goal of being able to live to 100, 4160, sometimes even 180 years old, and not just extending their life, but extending what they describe as healthSpan. So the period of their life where they are healthy.

Cheryl Sutherland
Can you give me a kind of a taste of what they're doing to kind of do this optimal living?

Ann Hui
Yeah, obviously there's a range, and there are people who do this in a very extreme way. You know, I refer to a couple of the popular online influencers Brian Johnson, for instance. He is a tech entrepreneur who spends, by his account, $2 million USD every year in pursuit of longevity. Things like plasma infusions. He does regular, I think, blood transfusions, including ones that he's done with his teenage son.

Cheryl Sutherland
So transferring the blood from his son.

Ann Hui
To himself, transferring the blood from his son, and all of this, again, in service of potentially extending his life. And then there are the maybe more popular or maybe more moderate versions of this, but they're all based around this very regimented routine, right? So a very typical routine that you might hear about might be, you know, waking up at a specific time, checking your aura, sleep ring to see the quality of sleep from the night before.

A popular one is sun exposure. First thing in the morning, there's so.

Cheryl Sutherland
Many different wavelengths of light coming from the sun, and they are bright enough that they will trigger the mechanisms that you want triggered at this early time of day.

Ann Hui
Often intermittent fasting, caffeine, pushing it back until, you know, 3 hours after the time you wake up. Workouts are very regimented again.

Robbie Bent
There's really something to the neurologic pattern that comes from practicing your IAP, practicing your breathing, your scapular cars, your cat, cow.

Ann Hui
You hear a lot of talk about hot and cold exposure therapy.

Robbie Bent
You know, when I started doing it, I just would go out and buy ice at the grocery store and stick it into my bathtub.

Ann Hui
So I'd put cold water, frequent use of saunas, often cold plunging. That's become very popular recently.

And then also technology, using technology and really trying to push the boundaries of technology.

Cheryl Sutherland
And then you said this kind of gained traction about five years ago. And that makes me kind of think about this timeline around Covid. Does Covid kind of play into this at all?

Ann Hui
Yeah, I think Covid, for many reasons, was a big driver behind this movement. And it makes sense. You know, this was a period of time where there was a lot of disruption, a lot of upheaval to our day to day lives. There was a lot of anxiety around health, around our safety, around our bodies, and how to take care of ourselves and our families. And so I think it's not a coincidence that that's very much sort of the time where we started to see the huge popularity, huge increase in popularity of some of these longevity figures. So the two that I talk about the most in the story are Andrew Huberman, who is a Stanford university neuroscientist, and Peter Attia, who is a Toronto born physician. So he's a licensed doctor. He comes with a lot of medical knowledge. So does Andrew Huberman. And they both started sort of around the late 2000 teens, early 2000 twenty's podcasts that very quickly grew in popularity right around the start of the pandemic.

Cheryl Sutherland
Is that how they're reaching the audience? Is that how they're reaching people?

Ann Hui
Podcasts, YouTube videos, online content, they both have just large online followings. They've also been boosted in large part. Bye. Already popular figures like Joe Rogan.

And so that really kind of helped to propel the popularity of these guys. They certainly look the part of fit, healthy, very muscular, very healthy people. And they're telling us exactly what to do. They're giving us a very specific blueprint for how to live our lives and how to live our lives better. And so I think it makes sense why these guys were so appealing at that time.

Cheryl Sutherland
So when you were reporting, you actually got to talk to some of these people that follow this movement, and you actually spoke to someone named Robbie Bent. Can you just tell me about him?

Ann Hui
Robbie is a really interesting person. You know, in a lot of ways, I think he is the prototypical kind of longevity enthusiast in that he is super, a type of very driven, has had a lot of success in his life. He once worked in investment banking. He's also been CEO of his own tech startup. But Robbie found longevity at a particularly low point in his life. The startup that he had started here in Toronto was going bankrupt. He was depressed. He was heavily addicted to cocaine. He was just not in a good place. And it was around that time that he started discovering things like ayahuasca, vipassana, meditation retreats. He got very into that for a while. And then that led him into sort of the wider wellness sphere.

He got into the podcast of people like Tim Ferriss, and then eventually Andrew Huberman. And so he got deeply into cold plunging. He got deeply, deeply into the wider longevity world. He was listening to the Longevity podcast, reading the books. He was part of a group chat. He was telling me where there was dozens of other longevity enthusiasts here in Toronto where they regularly trade secrets. He was weighing his ground beef every day. He was working out five times a week. He was writing in his gratitude journal, doing regular mris and bloodwork panels. And so he actually turned it into a business. He started a company here in Toronto called othership. Right, called othership a few years ago. It's him and a number of other Toronto based investors. It's a sauna and cold plunge studio where people can get together. They can do breath work workshops, they can do a cold plunge. They can do social events. There are these sort of almost disco type events that happen in a sauna. Like, it's a whole scene that he's created out of his interest in longevity.

Cheryl Sutherland
So, Anne, based on what you're telling me, this movement seems to be mostly directed at men. Why is this a man thing?

Ann Hui
So this isn't to say that there aren't women who are active in this community, but definitely, if you look at the leaders of this community, if you look at the most popular online figures, with very few exceptions, mostly men, and I don't think that's a coincidence. I mean, we've talked about kind of the language that's used by a lot of these longevity influencers, very kind of tech and finance focused, but also they often use very kind of masculine coded language, and sometimes not even so coded. There's a lot of talk about testosterone, for instance. There's a lot of talk about increasing testosterone. There's a lot of talk around how to be a man, what is the right way to be a man in this modern world, which I think that makes a lot of sense.

Cheryl Sutherland
What did you take from that? Because this does seem to be talking about masculinity in a specific way.

From your reporting, what were your thoughts around that?

Ann Hui
I think that its fair to say that there has been, in the recent past, a lot of confusion around how to perform masculinity in this fast changing world.

What is the right way to be a man in the modern world? These influencers, people like Andrew Huberman, people like Peter Attia, very much fall into the image of the prototypical manly man in a lot of ways. Their focus is very much on strength. They sometimes talk about emotional strength and mental health. But a lot of the focus is on physical strength, is on lifting heavy weights. You know, they do something called rucking, which is like running with heavy rocks or like backpacks that are filled with heavy weights. They pose often shirtless or wearing very tight shirts that show off their very muscled appearances.

They are very much kind of the paragon of male fitness. And so I think the attraction is very obvious, especially for a man or a younger man who is maybe feeling scared or confused in this very scary and confusing world. There's also, it's been documented for a long time that men in particular tend to be resistant to seeking advice from doctors, from booking regular medical screenings.

One of the figures that I cited came from Cleveland Clinic, just, I think, 2019. That said, something like 73% of men would rather perform domestic chores, things like mowing the lawn things like cleaning the bathroom rather than go for a medical checkup.

Cheryl Sutherland
No one likes cleaning the bathroom.

Ann Hui
Nobody likes cleaning the bathroom. But apparently they like going to the doctor even less.

Cheryl Sutherland
Wow.

Ann Hui
Yeah. And so I think that really speaks to this aversion to seeking medical help, having to admit to needing help.

Maybe some fears, you know, not wanting to appear like they were complaining, fear of perhaps what the doctor might say to them in general, you know, wanting to appear manly.

I think it also is important to say that, you know, we all know that here in Canada, we're living in a healthcare system that is stressed. You know, something like one in five Canadians don't have access to a regular family doctor. Even those of us who are lucky enough to have a family doctor. I have a family doctor. It's very difficult for me to get an appointment with him within even the next couple of weeks. And even when I do manage to get my family doctor, who is great, by the way, you know, I have maybe 15 minutes, maybe 30 minutes max, an appointment with him. He doesn't have the time to be going through my day to day life. You're not going to get that kind of individualized attention that others might be offering. And so I think these are very real concerns and very real challenges that help to kind of provide that context.

Ashley
Yeah.

Cheryl Sutherland
And it sounds like these people that people are looking up to in this movement, that they are providing something that the healthcare system might not be.

Ann Hui
Yeah. And I think it also appeals to that sense of self sufficiency. Right. I had a few of these people talk to me about these podcasters as being, you know, access to experts directly from the experts themselves. You know, not having to have the middleman and being able to, you know, through their own research, find answers that were tailored to them, that is appealing to them to feel like they're doing something actively, that they're being proactive.

Ashley
We'll be right back at Ashley. You'll find colorful furniture that brings your home to life. Ashley makes it easier than ever to express your personal style. With an array of looks and fun trending hues to choose from. From earth tones to vibrant colors to calming blues and greens, Ashley has pieces for every room in the house. In the season's most sought after shades of a more colorful life starts at Ashley. Shop in store online today. Ashley, for the love of home.

Cheryl Sutherland
So, Anne, you've laid out this longevity movement, who it appeals to and who's practicing it, but what does the science say about longevity practices?

Ann Hui
So the appeal of people like Andrew Huberman, people like Peter Attia, is that these are knowledgeable men who are basing their advice on hard science. The problem, of course, is that science itself can sometimes be open to interpretation. And so while the foundation on which some of their advice rests on things like stay active, things like watch what you eat, get a good night's sleep, go outside, is when they get to the more specific kind of technical and product driven aspects of their protocols, where things can get a little bit controversial. So when I talk to people like Timothy Caulfield, who's the Canada Research chair in health law and policy at the University of Alberta, his job is, and has been for a long time, is to research the specific claims of some of these longevity influencers. In the past, he's done a lot of work around wellness influencers as well. And according to him, many of these claims, it's not necessarily that they're wrong, it's just that the evidence that they use as the basis for the recommendations is often nothing rock solid. So sometimes the evidence is thin. In some cases, the evidence is based on animal studies that maybe are not necessarily 100% translatable to humans, often it's based on small sample studies. There's definitely a lot of controversy around some of their protocols. Things like cold plunging, things like red light therapy, things like sun exposure. Those are some of the ones that, off the top of my head, people like Tim Caulfield will tell you that there simply just isn't enough evidence to back up the assertion that they're going to help us live longer.

They might help us feel better in the moment, or they might have other positive effects. But the promise that these things will actually extend our human life, that doesn't seem to be supported by evidence.

Cheryl Sutherland
Some of these things that we're talking about eating well, cold plunges, taking supplements, what's the harm? I guess, you know, is there a type of harm when it comes to some of these longevity practices?

Ann Hui
I think that like anything else, you have to look at it across a broad range. Right. So I think that for many of the people who are following a longevity routine or protocol, if they can afford it and if it's bringing some kind of positive effect to their lives, I wouldn't say there's necessarily a harm to it, aside from maybe wasting money on things that don't actually have a demonstrably positive effect. But it's where people start making changes to their lifestyle based on pseudoscience and maybe instead of acting medical treatment, where they're, you know, replacing the advice of actual doctors with instead these podcasters, that's where you run into the potential, the very real potential for harm. One of the doctors, Samir Sinha, who I talked to, he's the director of geriatrics at Sinai Health, he talked about how the frequent medical testing that some of these guys prescribe around getting whole body mris every year, around getting regular blood work, testing for, you know, a variety of things, even if you don't have any symptoms of any kind of illness, those things can actually do potentially more harm than good, because even though, you know, diagnostic testing is generally a good thing, but if you're doing it all of the time, you're bound to. In the course of regular testing, you're going to find things. Our bodies are not 100% perfect. You might find little nodules or little kind of cysts or I, things that might be asymptomatic, but that might appear worrisome. And so that can lead to unnecessary anxiety.

It can lead to unnecessary treatment or therapeutics or surgery. It can lead to all kinds of potential harm. And in fact, you know, this idea of getting annual whole body mris, the American College of Radiology actually warns against doing, you know, for these exact reasons. And so that's where I can. I see the potential for harm.

I think also because so many of the parts of a longevity lifestyle are very expensive, accessible only to the very wealthy few.

This idea of better health for some, that's not available to all, you know, in a country like Canada.

And as Tim Caulfield said to me in our interview, you know, this obsessive pursuit of health for the individual, what it can end up doing is sort of distracting from the broader pursuit of public health. You know, things like building a healthy environment for everyone, making sure everyone has access to healthier lifestyle, it can be sort of a distraction to that.

Cheryl Sutherland
What do Peter Attia and Andrew Huberman say to some of the criticisms that we've kind of laid out here?

Ann Hui
Peter Attia was an interesting one in the context of this story because I did reach out to him very early on. I reached out to both him and Andrew Huberman very early on in reporting this story.

And Peter Attia, immediately his team got back to me and said that he wasn't interested in doing an interview. But I thought that. But even the process of requesting an interview with him was super interesting. I had to fill out an online form on his website, and in order to even submit the request for him to say yes or no to an interview, I had to agree to the stipulation that I would not ask questions about the cost of his treatments.

Cheryl Sutherland
Is that something that happens normally?

Ann Hui
I mean, I've definitely had interview subjects, once they've actually received an interview request, try to put those kinds of conditions on and try to have that conversation. But the idea of putting that condition in even before receiving their request, I thought was certainly interesting. It's not something I've seen before, and really, I think, speaks to how sensitive the subject is because he's certainly been. He and others have been subject to criticism around the cost, the accessibility of their protocols. I mean, both of these guys, Andrew Huberman, Peter Attia, they offer the majority, vast majority of their content online for free.

But in addition to their general content, you can pay for different subscriber services anywhere from, you know, 20 something dollars USD per month to. He has an online membership program that costs, I think, $2,500 USD, which is a more personalized version of his health kind of program. So cost is definitely something that is sensitive to him, something that he's been criticized about before.

And in an email, he did eventually respond to me just through a series of very short, targeted emails, just to very specific questions. And he did say that for the most important parts of his program, things like exercise, things like good sleep, healthy diet, those things don't necessarily have to come at a cost, which I think is true, but only to an extent.

And Andrew Huberman did not respond to requests for interviews.

Cheryl Sutherland
So in these practices, you know, they seem to be popular among people who have money, men who have money. And I wanted to ask you, what do you make of these men who seem to have it all, at least when it comes to wealth, that are going after this one thing that's out of reach, which is like everlasting life.

Ann Hui
I can certainly empathize with it, and I think that we can all empathize with the idea of fear and anxiety around our health, around our mortality.

I think that it's not a coincidence that the people who take it to the most extreme levels are people who are very wealthy, are people who have, in other fields, been extremely successful, people who are used to having a lot of success and probably having a lot of control in their day to day lives, because this is the one thing they can't control, is mortality. It's the one thing that money can't buy, is time. And so I can understand how that would then translate into this very obsessive pursuit. Right? It's their white whale, so I can understand that for sure.

But as my colleague Danielle Groin wrote in our morning newsletter, is that many of the men who take this to the extreme, who are the most kind of obsessive in their pursuit of this kind of thing, are already the ones who are receiving all kinds of privileges that already give them all kinds of advantages when it comes to living a healthy, long life. And so I think there is a little bit of an irony there. They are the people who healthcare studies are often designed around, you know, who our healthcare systems are sort of built to favor. I think it's worth thinking about that. But I get how they can fall into this kind of a community. You know, the female version of this is very much wellness, you know? And one look in my medicine cabinet shows just how easily susceptible I have been to just a different version of many of the same things. You know, supplements, serums, dietary advice, different workouts. It's all different versions of the same idea. Just to what extent.

Cheryl Sutherland
Anne, this has been a really great conversation. Thanks so much for being here today.

Ann Hui
I had a lot of fun. Maybe too much fun.

Cheryl Sutherland
A quick note before we go. I just wanted to say that this is my last day working with a decibel for a while. I'll be heading off on maternity leave for the next year and a bit it's been such a pleasure filling Manika's big shoes as host and of course, working my regular job as producer has been really fulfilling.

I'm really going to miss working with the team, and I just wanted to say thank you to all the listeners for continuing to tune into the decibel.

That's it for today. I'm Cheryl Sutherland. Kevin Sexton produced this episode. Our producers are Madeline White, Rachel Levy McLaughlin, and Michal Stein. David Crosby edits the show. Adrian Chung is our senior producer and Matt Fraynor is our managing editor. Thank you so much for listening.

Ashley
At Ashley. You'll find colorful furniture that brings your home to life. Ashley makes it easier than ever to express your personal style. With an array of looks and fun trending hues to choose from. From earth tones to vibrant colors to calming blues and greenshouse, Ashley has pieces for every room in the house in the season's most sought after shades. A more colorful life starts at Ashley Shop in store online today. Ashley, for the love of home.