6/13/24: Hunter/Michelle conspiracy goes wild, corporate media ignoring Trump's mental illness

This episode delves into the proliferation of conspiracy theories surrounding Hunter Biden and Michelle Obama, as well as the media's apparent neglect of former President Trump's mental health issues.

1. The 2024 presidential election is projected to be highly competitive, with neither Biden nor Trump having a definitive edge.
2. Conspiracy theories are gaining traction, highlighting a deep-seated issue within American political culture.
3. There's a critical examination of how media handles political figures' mental health, focusing on Trump's underreported cognitive decline.
4. The electoral college's impact on voting importance in swing states is discussed, underscoring systemic issues in American electoral politics.
5. Pakman calls for more responsible media coverage to better inform the public.

1: Election Projections

Pakman discusses the new electoral projections from 538, emphasizing the unpredictability of the 2024 presidential election. He critiques the electoral college system for diminishing the weight of individual votes depending on state.

• David Pakman: "Those confidently declaring that Biden will win are not basing their projection in reality."

2: Conspiracy Theories

The focus shifts to the conspiracy theory involving Michelle Obama potentially replacing Joe Biden due to Hunter Biden's legal issues, despite being debunked multiple times.

• David Pakman: "For a number of Republicans, Hunter Biden's conviction is a sign that this is putting us on the path for Michelle Obama to replace Joe Biden."

3: Media and Mental Health

Pakman criticizes the media's handling of Trump's mental health, arguing that signs of cognitive decline are being ignored, which poses a danger to public understanding and discourse.

• David Pakman: "Corporate media, for years, ignoring the obvious mental illness of a failed former president and convicted felon, Donald Trump."

1. Verify sources before sharing information to combat the spread of misinformation.
2. Participate in voting, especially in swing states, to influence tight electoral outcomes.
3. Engage critically with media, questioning narratives and seeking multiple viewpoints.
4. Educate others about the importance of recognizing and discussing public figures' mental health responsibly.
5. Advocate for electoral reforms that ensure every vote has equal importance.

-- On the Show:

-- Dan Harris, author of 10% Happier, host of the 10% Happier podcast, and former ABC news anchor who embraced mindfulness after having a panic attack on live TV, joins David to discuss his more recent work, anxiety, panic attacks, and more. Get the new version of his book: https://amzn.to/3XhzDtN

-- 538 publishes its first 2024 election project, which slightly favors Joe Biden defeating Donald Trump in the November presidential election

-- Hunter Biden's conviction revives the long-debunked conspiracy theory about Michelle Obama replacing President Joe Biden on the 2024 Democratic presidential ticket

-- Republican Senator Mitch McConnell admits that he will not say a word during his upcoming meeting to Donald Trump about the January 6 riots, or anything Trump has done wrong

-- Fox News host Jesse Watters looks perplexed as boxer Jake Paul tries to explain why voting for Donald Trump is a good idea

-- A discussion about why corporate media is ignoring Donald Trump's increasingly obvious mental illness

-- The story of Donald Trump's crumbling brain hits MSNBC in a segment with anchor Nicole Wallace

-- Voicemail caller says it's a waste of time to talk to and appear on Megyn Kelly's show

-- On the Bonus Show: House votes to hold AG Garland in contempt, North Dakota voters pass measure to impose age limits on Congressional candidates, Debbie Mucarsel-Powell surges in US Senate poll against Rick Scott, much more...

People

Donald Trump, Joe Biden, Michelle Obama, Hunter Biden, Andy Ogles, Maria Bartiromo

Companies

FiveThirtyEight

Books

None

Guest Name(s):

None

Content Warnings:

Discussions of mental health and political conspiracies.

David Pakman
Welcome, everybody. We start with what is considered a big deal in the election projection sort of industry today, which is that 538 has published its 1st 2024 election projection, Trump versus Biden. And the results.

Can we call them stunning? Can we call them shocking? Can we call them surprising? I don't know where that noise came from. No, we really can't call them any of those things. We can call them corroborating of exactly what I've been laying out to you for months now. The 538 projection, who is favored to win the 2024 presidential election?

53 times out of 100. In simulations, Biden wins. 53 out of 100. And in 47 out of 100 simulations, Donald Trump wins. What this means is that it is a toss up. What this means is that exactly what I have been saying. Those who are confidently declaring that Biden obviously will win are not basing their projection in reality. Those who are confidently projecting that it is Donald Trump who will win are not basing their projection in reality, and that this is likely to come down to a relatively small number of votes in a small number of states. Now, let's dig into the simulation a little bit more deeply.

As you can see here, there is a sort of distribution curve, and I'll describe what we're looking at for people who are only listening. There's a distribution curve of possible outcomes. And as you can see, they are really grouped right around the middle.

You could make the case that there are more scenarios in which Trump wins. This isn't really an accurate interpretation of this model. Model. What the model does suggest is that some of Trump's paths to 270 electoral votes include a larger margin of victory than some of Biden's. And that's by the very nature of which states are definitely going to go Biden and Trump. And sort of the realities of that. If you're interested in seeing the full list of polls that FiveThirtyeight uses in making these projections, you can do that. It's not super relevant to our discussion today. One of the interesting things is where, how it has the forecast changed over time. Now, what's interesting about this is that they only just now are issuing their full projection. But you can back out some of this data. And what you can see if you go back is that there was a period where it seemed as though Biden was likely to come away with more electoral votes than he is right now. But the scenario that in this 53 to 47 margin, FiveThirtyEight says is the most likely right now is Biden 275 and Trump 263. Remember, 270 is the line between winning and losing. And so that is a very, very, very small margin, significantly smaller than it was in 2020. So if you're trying to figure out how important is it that I vote generically, obviously, the truth is, because of the electoral college, if you vote in California, it's less important that you vote than it is if you vote in North Carolina or even more, uh, Wisconsin or even more Arizona.

We've talked about that, and that's part of why I'm against the electoral college. But it is the system we have, and that's the one that we will be fighting this election over. Uh, but importantly, expecting a tighter electoral margin than in 2020. In terms of what are the critical toss up states? They are, as I've been saying, Arizona, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Georgia. It is those five. And with those five potentially hangs in the balance, who will be the next president of the United States?

What are the closest races?

The closest ones, according to this model, are Arizona, Nevada, Georgia, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan. All of those are under a two point margin.

And then you get to larger margins, and then you can look at a whole bunch of other scenarios here. Uh, what's the takeaway here? There is one and only one takeaway, which is to pat me on the back and to say, you know what, David, you're right. This is probably going to be close. And I'm, of course, kidding. There's nothing particularly stunning or difficult about my prediction, which is elections in the United States, given the hyper polarized nature of the country, given that if you put an r or a d in front of a candidate's name, that gets you the lion's share of your potential vote, and then the rest is just sort of like, who can you convince from this much smaller group that might go one way and might go the other way? In addition to this, we have the reality that because we have no national popular vote contest, these are 50 individual popular vote contests, which then inform the electoral college a large swath of the country. Kind of doesn't matter because the partisan demographics are so skewed one way or the other. Although someday Texas may be close and may be in play for Democrats, we would love it to be. It's not in play this year. California is not in play this year. It's going to go to Democrats, period.

So we end up with a scenario where really, this is an election that will be decided by those voters in five or so states who are considering.

I might vote, I might stay home, I might vote for Biden, or I might vote for Trump or I might vote third party or write somebody else in. So a country of 340 million, you obviously reduce that to the number of eligible voters. You then reduce that to the 60 or so percent that we expect to vote, and then you reduce this to the swing voters in the five key states.

How many voters does this election depend on? It's probably five to 10 million with margins of about 250 to 500,000 in these five states. Is it depressing for me to explain it that way? In a way, is it realistic? It does appear to be realistic, particularly based on this 538 model. So the takeaway, it's going to be close.

It would be a good idea for you to plan to vote and to convince others, you know, about how important it is to vote in this election.

Although the conspiracy theory that Michelle Obama will be swooping in to replace Joe Biden on the democratic ticket has been debunked multiple times by Michelle Obama herself, it appears to be the conspiracy theory that will not die in the aftermath of Hunter Biden's conviction on three gun related charges.

We are. What's that phrase I like to use? If you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And for a number of different Republicans, including Republican Congressman Andy Ogles, Hunter Biden's conviction is a sign that this is putting us on the path for Michelle Obama to replace Joe Biden on the democratic ticket. Here is Andy Ogle speaking to Trump Brown noser Maria Bartiromo. And he says, I think this gives Michelle Obama that opening that she's been waiting for. And Maria Bartiromo says, yes, she agrees with this idea.

Dan Harris
Speaker one that being said, I think it also creates an opening for Democrats to slip someone like Michelle Obama in here. The Biden family can say, hey, we're going to take care of our house. We're going to take care of our son, and then allow Michelle Obama to come in and run, because, again, Joe Biden can't win this election, and they know that and they are desperate for another candidate. I got to tell you, I am increasingly thinking that Joe Biden withdraws from this race by the time November 5 comes along. I am buying into what you're saying there because I agree that the Democrats are desperate right now. They are very worried.

David Pakman
Former President Trump, speaker one yeah, she's increasingly convinced, but she's been spreading this stuff for over a year. So in general, the idea that Biden simply can't make it to the election that's been going on since 2020. And of course, so far, he's defied those predictions. But importantly, this is not something where we are left to wonder, does Michelle Obama want to run? Does Michelle Obama plan to run? She's already addressed this multiple times. Michelle Obama tells Oprah she'll never, ever run for president. That's from Rolling Stone. We also have, that's 2023. We also have Michelle Obama. Just a few months ago, Michelle Obama's office says the former first lady will not be running for president in 2024. Now, they have an answer to this. If you go to them, and by them, I mean the people who are pushing this conspiracy theory, and you go, listen, she said she doesn't plan to run. They have an answer. Vivek Ramaswamy gave me the answer when he was a guest on this program, and he says it's not that she plans to do it. She may not have a choice. They may force her to do it. Here's Vivek Ramaswamy on my program just a few months ago. Explaining some sort of implicit or explicit agreement is ridiculous, and there is none. Couple quick things. Hopefully in the last few minutes, we have, you mentioned at the end of the debate last week that you don't think Joe Biden ultimately will be the nominee. And you mentioned Michelle Obama as someone that may be put up there by Democrats.

She has said definitively she is not going to run for president. Not like, maybe not. I haven't thought about it. Just, I'm not running for president. Do you not believe that? Do you know anything? We don't?

No. I mean, I believe that she doesn't want to run for president. I think that much is clear.

I'm not sure that it's her choice, and I'm not sure that it's Biden's choice. I mean, really, I think that there's a managerial machine who's in there, decides who's going to be churned out. It's not one person.

Dan Harris
It's a system.

David Pakman
And I think it goes back to the way the government's run. I think the people, speaker one. So then here he gets into deep state stuff, and I kind of pressed him and said, check out the interview. It is interesting. I said, can you name even one person who's supposedly running this? And the, the one name he was able to come up with is people like Susan Rice. But the point here is even when you confront these Republicans with the reality that Michelle Obama has said, not once and not offhandedly, but has both said during interviews and her office has published official statements saying she is not running for president, she's not running for president in 2024. She has no intention of ever running for president of the United States. Vivek and others who believe in this idea say it's not up to her. She doesn't want to run. It may not be up to her. The people who are, quote, truly in charge are the ones who ultimately may decide. Now, why is it so interesting to them to make Michelle Obama the subject of this conspiracy theory? I actually don't know. I can speculate and I'll give you a few ideas, but I want to hear from you. Why do they insist that it is Michelle Obama? Is it because they like the idea of a political dynasty in another Obama enable in order to foment the idea that this is all power held by a few families, which, of course, is something we've actually seen on the republican side because multiple bushes have been presidents, the entire Trump family is a sort of cronyistic, nepotistic entity.

I don't know, maybe they like the idea of saying it's the evil Obama dynasty. It's a family dynasty. Is it something about Michelle Obama's race and gender that they like the idea that no matter what it is that democratic voters have voted for, the elites of the democratic party plan to inject, like, bleach a black woman because she meets the demographic criteria that the elites are pushing? I'm just speculating here. I don't know why they're obsessed with the idea of Michelle Obama swooping in and replacing Joe Biden. I am not a betting man. If I were to bet, my money, continues to be Michelle Obama does not run. And by the way, I don't see any way in which Hunter Biden's conviction lets us step several paths, set several steps into the future and landing on Michelle Obama running. Now, if you want to make the argument that Joe Biden, who didn't really want to run for a second term but feels like he needs to because he's the guy that can defeat Trump? That's what Biden has said. If you want to argue that because Biden was so borderline about running for reelection anyway, the family strife of his son being convicted is going to push him over the edge into saying, I'm actually not going to be doing this so I can go and spend time with my family, that's a much more sane and sober argument. In a logistical sense, I don't really believe it makes too much sense. If you think that Hunter Biden is going to end up in prison, which he probably won't, it's I mean, Biden might as well be president.

It's not like he's going to be in prison with Hunter Biden.

And if Hunter Biden is ultimately going to get probation, it also doesn't really make sense that Biden would say, I'm going to opt out of running for that. So it doesn't make sense in any way. But even stepping back from the Michelle Obama component, it doesn't really make sense. So let me know your thoughts. Why are they obsessed with the idea of Michelle Obama being the one who replaces Biden? Do you believe in any way that Hunter Biden's conviction will impact Biden's run? We'll follow up info at david pakman.com. send us an email. Make sure that you're subscribed on the YouTube channel. We'll hear from a sponsor or two and then continue with the disgusting and cowardly latest statement from Mitch McConnell.

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If you're hearing me talk about this right now, you're not getting the full David Pakman show experience, which includes getting the Daily show with no commercials hours earlier than it is otherwise published, as well as the daily bonus show, an extra show that we produce and create and publish just for our members. You can go to join pacman.com. you can use the coupon code savedemocracy 24 to get a discount, and a lot of great new stuff forthcoming for our members. Also remember that at absolutely no cost whatsoever, you can subscribe to the YouTube channel@YouTube.com the David Pakman show where a lot of our new forthcoming projects and content will be appearing. And we are we're giving the old college try to approaching 2.5 million YouTube subscribers, which they tell me is a perfect number for an election year. Mitch McConnell, Senate Majority leader, Senate minority leader, and longtime republican senator, has not made it a secret that he didn't like much of what he saw from Trump around before and after January 6. Mitch McConnell has made it more or less clear he believes Joe Biden won the election, not Donald Trump in 2020. And he's made it pretty clear that Donald Trump was responsible for inciting the insurrection and riots on January 6. And despite this, Mitch McConnell is not only meeting with Donald Trump today in Washington, DC, along with other Republicans, not Mitt Romney, by the way, Mitt Romney has said, I'm not going.

But he was asked yesterday by CNN reporter Manu Raju, do you plan to bring up to Donald Trump any of the different issues you have with him, including the ways that he has divided the Republican Party and has hurt the Republican Party? Not exactly a profile in courage. Mitch McConnell basically says, no. I've said, you know, I'm going to sue, support whoever is the republican nominee, and it's going to be Trump. So that's really it.

Oh, boy. Let's listen to Mitch.

Should we continue the tradition.

Jesse Watters
Tomorrow?

David Pakman
You're going to the NROC. First time you haven't spoken to Trump.

Donald Trump
Since December 2020, from what we understand.

David Pakman
Do you want to confront any of the bad blood between the two of you or anybody? The issues you had, including over January 6? You know, I said three years ago, right after the Capitol was attacked that I would support our nominee.

I made it immediately clear after that horrible thing that Trump incited, that I'll support whoever is the nominee, even if it's Trump himself. Could, could you imagine a less brave and courageous statement from Mitch McConnell attacked that I would support our nominee regardless of who it was, including him?

I've said earlier this year I support him. He's been earned the nomination by the voters all across the country.

And, of course, I'll be at the meeting tomorrow.

There you go. Now, Mitt Romney has said he will not be going to the meeting. And, you know, this is not, not about making the case that Mitt Romney is some kind of a great political figure that we should be aspiring to have in leadership or whatever the case may be. It's just a reminder that there are different Republicans with regard to what they are morally and ethically willing to do or say. If I'm totally honest with you, I think it's probably the case that Romney and McConnell actually have pretty similar views of Trump behind the scenes. The difference is Romney is retiring and has sort of a clear path to freely say what it is that he believes, whereas Mitch McConnell is not in that same situation. And that's not a defense. It's the unfortunate reality of how clinging to power and the centers of power is what drives the vast majority of their behavior. NBC News reports. Republicans to tout unity with Trump in his first visit to Capitol Hill since January 6. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell and other Republicans who broke with Trump after the riots are meeting with their party's presumptive nominee on Thursday.

And I mean, listen, it's, it's an unfortunate thing that they are choosing party over country.

Mitt Romney knows, even though I disagree with the guy on much policy, Mitt Romney knows Trump is bad for the country. And importantly, Romney knows that Trump is bad for the long term future of the republican party. And the proof of that is how he's been for them the last eight years. Trump squeaked out a 2016 presidential win electorally based on 75 or thousand votes, 75,000 or so votes in three states.

The Republican Party had a bad 2018 midterm. Trump lost 2020, and Trump became the first president, president up for reelection since George HW Bush in 1992 to lose reelection. Then they had a disastrous midterm in 2022, during which the red wave was coming. And yet Democrats expanded their hold of the Senate. Disastrous 2023 and disastrous abortion referendum after referendum, on the heels of Trump's Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade. Romney realizes not only is Trump bad for the country, he's also bad for the party, but he can just say, I'm leaving, whatever, go to hell.

Whereas Mitch McConnell almost certainly realizes Trump is bad for the country, almost certainly realizes, just looking at the election results, that Trump is also bad for the party. But he wants to stick to power as long as he can. And there is really no room in the higher echelons of the Republican Party if you denounce Trump, or in Mitch McConnell's case, say what you really think about him. So not a profile encouraged, not even a little bit. But I can't say I'm completely surprised. Jake Paul is a boxer and social media influencer. And I guess he's sort of making himself Trump aligned. And the reason I care about this is that there are a lot of young people, those who are just becoming a voting age and those who soon will be a voting age, who follow Jake Paul and his brother Logan Paul, and almost see them as pseudo deities whose views on any issue, including politics, should be listened to very closely. So when Jake Paul appeared on Fox News last night with Jesse Watters and he was asked about the state of the country, I was very curious. Now I'm going to play for you here. It's a couple minutes. This, this is really tough to watch, but it's also absolutely hilarious.

See if you can make heads or tails out of Jake Paul. Explaining what's wrong in the country and how he would fix it. It is so incoherent that even Jesse Waters is kind of like, what is this guy talking about? This is really wild and wacky stuff, but it's representative of how Trump won in 2016. I'm going to explain this, and there's actually a really important lesson and a takeaway here that we must understand if we hope to win politically in the future. And it has everything to do with Jake Paul is visibly confused here.

Some people are saying he seems, he seems concussed from boxing. He's not making any sense, but he's using certain words in the way that Trump uses random words that trigger a visceral reaction in people, and they get a certain portion of the electorate to say, that sounds good. I'm going to vote for that. Okay, so let's listen to Jake Paul's analysis of the state of the country.

And while at the same time, we see it for what it is, a completely unhinged rant. I'm then going to give you my opinion as to why this sort of thing actually does convince voters.

What are the solutions you want for. What's the problem?

Jesse Watters
Man? There's a lot. There's a lot to name. And, you know, that's not my.

David Pakman
Yeah, we only have a couple minutes.

Jesse Watters
Yeah, no, that's not my, necessarily area of expertise. But I know people, people are struggling with jobs. Mortgages are too much for people to afford inflation. Prices are going up. Is minimum wage rising? People.

David Pakman
So it's already just like, what is he talking about? But stick. Try to stick with people you know.

Jesse Watters
Are having trouble paying off and going to school, and then they're feeling like, hey, I have this college degree, but what has this gotten me? I believe there's a massive problems with our food. The stuff that they're putting into our bodies and allowing at grocery stores is causing massive health problems. I think there needs to be a massive conversation with the national institution of Health. And that, that's why I created w, quite literally, just, you got to try this stuff. It smells. It smells delicious.

David Pakman
So now he realizes he's off the rails, so he pulls out a body spray. But again, just try to stick with it.

Jesse Watters
But I wanted to make a better for you product that took out all the weird stuff for young men and boys across the world, because it matters what we're putting in and on our bodies. And so definitely there's a lot of things.

David Pakman
Wait, Jake, was that just body spray?

Jesse Watters
Yes, this is W. Body spray. Deodorant. And body wash.

So I've been working on this for two years and it's available in Walmart nationwide right now.

David Pakman
Are you got to send over the skincare line to prime time? We'll sample it and we'll give it a review.

Your brother was just with Trump.

Let's watch the clip. You explain what was going on here.

Dan Harris
What was that?

Jesse Watters
Yeah, no, I think my brother's having Trump on his podcast, and I think that's what's important to young voters is the president showing up, speaking their mind, saying how they're going to help. And my brother's invited Biden onto his podcast, the last I've heard. And, you know, let's see what happens.

David Pakman
Speaker one. Ok, so this is a completely incoherent rant. There are some who reacted by saying he must be concussed from boxing, but that rant tells us so much about how Trump won. Let me explain.

Remember how in 2016, Trump would, slightly less incoherently than now, rant about trade, China farming, wall immigrants, jobs?

None of it was coherent in any serious way. None of it delineated any kind of deep understanding of the issues.

But voters who similarly don't have a deep understanding of the issues heard the right buzzwords. When you stuff enough of the right keywords in there that people realize, even if it's incoherent, I'm recognizing those words and they sort of connect the things I'm aware of. Inflation, eggs, gas prices, china tariffs, masks, whatever, right?

That's how you end up attracting folks who are on the periphery of the political system are barely paying attention, but they know enough to know, hey, there's this thing called voting, which I could do. Does anybody out there interest me enough to actually go out and do it? And so I don't think we should laugh off these kind of deranged rantings because these are the deranged rantings that allowed Trump to pull in people who had not been politically active before. Before because they heard some of the words they were hoping to hear. So I, you know, ignore the impact and influence of people like Jake and Logan Paul getting involved in the political space at your own risk, because there are those who are maybe going to vote, maybe not, who then hear Jake Paul confusedly talk about the minimum wage and prices, and they go, man, you know what? I should get out there and vote for Trump because eggs are expensive and I don't know, it sounds like the right thing to do. Ignoring these sorts of things is a very bad idea. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back after this.

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It's great to have back on the program today, Dan Harris, author of 10% Happier and also host of the 10% Happier podcast. He's also a former ABC News anchor who embraced mindfulness after having a panic attack on live tv. Dan, it's great to have you on. I've been checking out your podcast regularly and it's great and I'm looking forward to talking about some of these things with you today.

Dan Harris
Thank you. Nice to see you again.

David Pakman
So, I mean, listen, to start with, in the three years, three and a half years since you and I spoke, the topic in general of anxiety has gone significantly more mainstream. Jonathan Haidt has a book out the anxious generation that's getting a ton of attention, and depending on who you talk to, the focus will sometimes become social media and devices, or it will be about work culture as the cause or whatever the case may be. I'm curious, as someone who's been talking about this publicly for longer than it's been as kind of en vogue, has your opinion about anxiety in western society and its causes changed at all over the last few years?

Dan Harris
I think it's constantly evolving. If I had to guess, it's, well, this part isn't a guess, I think it's for sure multifactorial. But my sense, having conducted hundreds of interviews on the subject, is that there in the toxic mix would be an increasing allergy to discomfort.

And again, I don't blame our young people for that. That is the world we've created for them.

We've made a world where there is kind of an insufficient amount of friction you can get through swiping dates, Amazon meals, rides, information. And so a lot of the friction that was built into my life as a young person isn't there for young people now. And that creates a kind of intolerance for discomfort. And so I think that's part of what's driving the anxiety. I think another part is lack of social interaction. And that, of course, is related to Jonathan Haidt's stuff around social media and the other apparently noxious impacts of modern technology. But I think one of the biggest parts of this, and Jonathan talks about this, is that kids and all of us are just insufficiently exposed to other people. And this is not conjecture at all.

The longest running scientific study in science has been done at Harvard, the Harvard study of adult development. You're nodding your head, you're aware of it.

David Pakman
Viewed one of the authors.

Dan Harris
Yeah, so Robert Waldinger has been out there.

And the thing that comes screaming out of the data of studying many generations of people who live in the Boston area, just to get a sense of what creates a long and healthy life.

The number one variable, and probably the number one, two and three variables is the quality of your relationships. So we know that the human animal needs relationships to thrive because stress is what kills us and relationships can moderate our stress. And so I think the fact that we're not getting enough FaceTime is leading to more anxiety. And then I think finally, there's structural stuff around the climate, the economy, and overall, just the pace and rate of change.

Things have always changed all the time. That is a non negotiable law of the universe. But the rate of change appears to be picking up, and I think that's probably contributing to the anxiety.

David Pakman
You, after you had this panic attack on national tv, you made a lot of very tangible changes over a long period of time, which include the career changes meditation, which you talk about a lot and have written about and see as an asset all sorts of different kind of practical changes. But I guess what I'm curious about is, have the changes. Let me see how to, how to ask this the right way? Do you, do you think that the changes themselves are what have given you tangible and practical benefits with regard to the way you feel? Or was it sort of the decision that, okay, now that this happened, I now need to undertake a sort of journey of sorts. And it was that process, rather than the specific changes you made that made the difference.

Dan Harris
I think it's both. You know, I haven't heard that question before. I like that question. I think there's something about seeing clearly. I have anxiety and also sometimes that's comorbid with depression, but I have anxiety, so I recognize it. The first step is admitting it and I'm making the affirmative decision to address it. I think there's a lot in that. And then, of course, the practices, and there are many that we can talk about, all do, and these are evidence based practices, they all do help. So I do think it's a combination.

David Pakman
I talk to people in my life sometimes who have what they describe as social anxiety.

And the way that they say it manifests is the idea of I'll invite a friend to a gathering with ten people where they only know me, and they will say, and it's great that they're honest. They'll say, the idea of going to a place where I don't know nine of the 1010 people causes me a paralyzing anxiety, where I get a physical response now I'm not even there and I'm just going to stay home. For example, for me, as someone who doesn't have that particular type of anxiety, it's really hard to. To put myself in that mindset because I don't know, I talk to people I don't know all the time and go places all the time and speak to groups or whatever. But on the other hand, for me, I've talked to my audience before. I would describe myself as having medical anxiety, which again, to other people who go, listen, you just go and they'll tell you what's wrong or whatever. You don't ruminate about it. Sometimes it seems as though there's something about this that can be difficult to really empathize with. If it is a flavor that is different to the one that you have, how does that sound to you as someone who's dealt with some of these things and not others?

Dan Harris
It sounds completely natural. I mean, it's hard to empathize with something that you've never tasted yourself.

I'm just thinking of a story. This literally happened yesterday because it's a great counterexample to this trend or this potential that you're describing, which is to struggle to feel empathy for a flavor of anxiety or anything.

Anything on the vast menu of human mania that you have not experienced yourself. But yesterday, I had a really, for me, very. It was small, but very powerful experience of the opposite.

I have intermittent bouts of claustrophobia, which can produce panic for me when it's present. For me, it's really bad, and it's crippling. And so I'm just in one right now. And I. Yesterday, I arrived at a building in New York City where I was going to tape a podcast at a studio on the 16th floor.

And I was late, and I had a lot of luggage with me, and I looked at the elevator, and I was like, I can't get in. This is too small. And I turned to the guy who was at the.

Who was just, like, the security guy, and I said, can you.

Can I take the stairs and can you just, like, take my bags up? And he said. He looked at me, put his jacket on, is like, no hesitation. He's like, I'm gonna ride up with you. And he took me into the elevator. He's like, you're gonna do this with me, and you're gonna be fine. Just, like, no hesitation. He just saw that I was suffering and didn't know me at all and talked me up to the 16th floor, and I made it. I was fine. I did not panic, and I was just a great example of the fact that humans are underrated.

We have this capacity for empathy and for kindness that is totally overlooked and undervalued in a world where our information is served up to us via these all powerful algorithms that reward negativity and conflict and polarization and red meat for your priors.

And yet empathy is available to us. And the really good news is that it's a trainable skill. This guy I met yesterday, Barry is his name. He has it, naturally.

But your self diagnosis of a lack of empathy for your friends who have social anxiety, like, that's a trainable skill, in particular, through various forms of meditation. And so this is the last thing I'll say, because I realize I'm running along here. But to me, the most exciting thing in the world is that the brain and the mind are trainable, and that these mental states, these qualities that we want, empathy, peace of mind, happiness, connection, compassion, they're not unalterable factory settings. They're skills that are trainable. That's kind of my little rap. I say that a lot, but it is. My life is really designed now around disseminating that news.

David Pakman
In terms of the trainability, depending on who you talk to and depending on exactly what one is experiencing, you can get recommendations or access to exposure type therapy, um, medications of different kinds, SSRI's or non SSRI medication, meditation and other forms of mindfulness exercise. You know, the full gamut that is out there in this sort of industry that will help people to deal with whatever flavor of this they're experiencing. As a non clinical professional yourself, what's your sense of the combinations of these different tools that are available and their utility?

Dan Harris
My attitude is yes to all of it.

I'm a maximalist. I think you should pull every lever at your disposal. Now, I'm also dogmatically non dogmatic, so I really believe that people should make their own decisions. So I'm not here to wag my finger at you and tell you you should do x or y. I just, I can tell you what's worked for me, and I can tell you where the evidence is. And so I'm, you know, some people, I think, are overly reflexively anti medication for not, for not illegitimate reasons. I mean, we, I think. I think it's, I think it's possible that we are over medicating ourselves, particularly our children. And medication does have some efficacy, and especially when it's part of a mix. So, for example, for myself, I have panic disorder. It particularly shows up around either public speaking, which is odd given that I am a public speaker for a living, or more worryingly for me, claustrophobia. So elevators and airplanes. So if I'm in a bout of, you know, like, I'm really struggling to get on a plane, I will use as a bridge medication, but then I will also do exposure therapy so that I'm going to the root of it. So, like, by exposure therapy, I mean, I've spent months where I've had regular appointments with my shrink, riding in elevators at the Westchester Mall in White Plains, New York, so that I can just get exposed to the thing that stresses me out, so that it stops stressing me out.

The problem is that if I, for some reason, go for a long period of time without airplanes or elevators, it comes back. And so I have to do the therapy again and maybe use the medication. And so I guess what I'm saying here is, yes, and it's about finding the right mix for yourself. And I don't think we should be taking things like medication off the table just because of a concern about an otherwise legitimate concern about over medication, because I think it can be used in concert with other evidence based things like therapy, meditation, exercise, sleep, diet. All of the things we know also work.

But sometimes you just need to reach for a tool that might be uncomfortable for you, but it does work, or can work.

David Pakman
Last thing I want to ask you about. I'm curious, where are you on your personal social media use? Because social media comes up so often now, and there are varied opinions as to the degree to which this is a factor in people's anxiety. I think it probably depends on what one is anxious about the effect that social media participation may have. What's your kind of personal social media usage right now?

Dan Harris
Yeah, I think I have a pretty nuanced view on this. I mean, I know Jonathan Hyde has been out there pounding the table on how bad social media is for us. And, you know, I tend so in my gut, I just kind of believe him. But when I look at the data, it seems a little mixed. So it's hard for me to really know, and I'm not an expert, but in my gut, based on my n, of one laboratory of my own mind, when I'm on social media too much, it makes me unhappy. So it feels right when he talks about the dangers of social media. That being said, I am also wary of being a Luddite. And Haidt himself is on social media. I mean, he has a very active Instagram feed because I know, because I follow him, because I'm a fan and admirer.

I never really used social media consistently until about a year ago when my agents shout out to Uta prevailed upon me to start getting more consistent about it just for business purposes.

And I've had. It's been interesting. On the one hand, I've really. The creativity of coming up with very pithy, helpful things to say that I can disseminate where the actual eyeballs are. No matter what I think of social media, it's quite popular, and so that's where people are. So it's nice to reach people where they are. And I've enjoyed the creative challenge of that. And I've also noticed that when I am tired or lonely or bored, and I check how my videos are doing, that makes me quite unhappy.

David Pakman
And so regardless of how well they're.

Dan Harris
Doing, they're never doing well enough.

You know, the human animals wired for insatiability. Yeah, it's evolutionarily adaptive, right? Because if you had only one meal and were satisfied, you wouldn't get your DNA into the next generation. So it's never enough, and you bump right up against that insatiability. With social media, especially if you're a content creator. So it's really about a balance. And I'm just constantly working on it, as you can hear. I'm not like, I'm not a big fan of hard and fast rules.

You know, everybody's life is complicated, and everybody has their own, you know, their own details and nuances that they have to attend to. And so I try to give sort of broad north stars and for myself and for others and, and there's an art to the application of it in your own circumstances.

David Pakman
Yeah, I mean, my view on it is at this point, it is increasingly difficult to fully participate with most of the people. You know, if you completely rule out all of these technologies, I think it's good to resist the instinct to any time there's a moment of boredom to turn to this. And I try to make it easy for myself to turn to a book rather than these platforms forms, at least some of the time.

And also, it's okay to just kind of entertain yourself at some point with some of these things, as long as it's all kind of being done like you're saying, in a kind of environment. I think being deliberate rather than just reflexively being on it is kind of the critical part.

Dan Harris
Yes, I totally agree with that. And this kind of brings me back to my hobby horse, and I apologize in advance around meditation, because mindfulness meditation is, which is the kind of meditation that I talk about. You know, it's designed to create a, to create mindfulness, which you can just translate as self awareness.

David Pakman
Right.

Dan Harris
And if you have self awareness, hopefully by hour 23 of going down a Twitter or x rabbit hole, you wake up and realize, I haven't eaten and I'm pissed.

I should put the phone down. And actually, if it's really, if the mindfulness is really working, it happens, you know, at minute twelve. And it's just, it's, it helps with that intentionality that you're describing. And so I just, you know, put a gentle plug in for it in that regard.

David Pakman
Dan Harris is the host of the 10% Happier podcast, which I subscribe to. Dan, always great talking to you. I really appreciate your time.

Dan Harris
Thanks for having me on. It's a pleasure.

David Pakman
Let's say you want to figure out if Trump did use a nazi slogan in a campaign video or if it's just a misunderstanding. Ground News is an app and website that gathers news stories from across the world and political spectrum. So you can decide for yourself. It's a great tool. I'm happy to be partnering with them for this video. Yes, Trump did in fact use a nazi slogan in a campaign video he posted and then he deleted it. On ground news, I can access almost 200 articles covering the story and see that only 17% of those are right leaning. No surprise there. Comparing coverage is interesting. Some sources on the left references language comparing him to Hitler, while on the right, RT highlights his explanation of the video, and Israel's Arut Sheva highlights that he deleted it. The ground news blind spots feature will highlight stories like this that are disproportionately covered by either political side, so you are guaranteed to see the full picture. Sign up through my link for 40% off their vantage subscription, which gives you access to all of their features. Go to ground Dot news Pacman the link is in the podcast notes why is corporate media mostly, and has been completely for years, ignoring the obvious mental illness, a failed former president and convicted felon, Donald Trump. This is the conversation I want to have with you today. And this is the question I want to start with. Now, increasingly, very slowly, the story of Trump's mental illness. Now here we aren't necessarily even talking about cognitive decline.

We're talking about something else. Something is wrong with Trump. It is slowly sort of crawling or clawing its way into the discourse. One such example is a very good piece from three days ago in the Washington Post. Opinion pages from Eugene Robinson called is Donald Trump okay? His story about hypothetically being electrocuted is another glimpse into a mind that is unwell. And what I like about this article in general, it's a great thing that in the last 48 to 72 hours, the story of Donald Trump's incoherence and quite frankly, pretty apparent mental illness, it is getting dramatically more attention. Now. When you start at zero, dramatically more doesn't necessarily get you that much. But a couple days ago, there was this piece on PBS with an NPR reporter where they talked about the very sort of shocking incoherence of Donald Trump at rallies. And now we have this really good piece in the Washington Post by Eugene Robinson, and it makes a critical point. We will link to the piece. I encourage you to read it. It's very short. It takes three minutes to read this piece.

One of the points that it makes is that the obsession over President Biden's occasional speech errors, particularly given that he has a known stutter, is downright irresponsible for corporate media to be focusing on, compared to rants from Trump that are detached from reality in a way indicative of, at minimum, moderate mental illness. And there's a couple of factors here at play. Number one, the right continues to have a near monopoly on agenda setting power when it comes to corporate media programs. When MSNBC talks about something, it doesn't, even if it's coming from a sort of center left democratic party perspective, it does not set the agenda for the next 244-8729 6 hours among, quote, the left in the way that when Hannity floats the idea, or when Tucker, when he was on Fox, would float the idea that maybe the FBI did the January 6 riots, it is everywhere on right wing media for days. Charlie Kirk will talk about it. Candace Owens will talk about it. The next morning, Fox and Friends refers to Tucker Carlson's rant. And then all day on Fox and Fox Business and real America's voice and rumble and all these different platforms and channels. The agenda setting power of Fox News compared to something like an MSNBC is part of this. And the media, on the one hand, is falling prey to the agenda setting about Biden's verbal stumbles thanks to right wing media, while at the same time, many incorporate media have become desensitized to what is, quite frankly, Trump's verbal incontinence, the lies, the threats, and the signs that he is clearly mentally unwell.

There's one other thing I want to mention about why this is not necessarily gotten the attention it deserves in corporate media.

Trump's decline, while steady, has been relatively slow. And what I mean by that is that if you look a year ago, Trump wasn't as bad as he is now. And if you look at a year before that, it wasn't quite as bad. And a year before that, and if you keep doing this, you kind of get back to 15 years ago on Letterman where he was relatively articulate, used a much broader vocabulary, and did not exhibit a lot of the signs of both cognitive decline and mental illness that he now does. So the fact that this guy's been in the public eye as a political figure for eight years and has been steadily but slowly declining for eight years also is part of there was no one day where all of a sudden, wow, Trump's really lost it. Trump's 2016 campaign had outrageous statements that bordered between someone entertaining and horrifying. In 2024, it's gotten so much worse, but slowly that there are real questions about his mental fitness and mental illness. But it is not really grabbing the attention of corporate media. And it's often excused as just Trump being Trump, even though there are concerning signs from both mental health professionals and neurology, Alzheimer's, dementia, doctors, as we've talked about. And one of the things that Eugene Robinson points out in his article is that Trump's rant about electrocution from his Las Vegas rally over the weekend, if you really analyze it outside of Trump being Trump, we're kind of used to this. It's only gotten slightly worse every few months for the last eight years.

If you really look at it for what it is, this is absolutely terrifying. So for people who have now listened to this 92nd rant two times this week, I apologize. But Eugene Robinson is referring to this. This is really exhibit a in Trump's. Something is very wrong here. I do want to include it here. And Eugene Robinson is right to point.

Donald Trump
To this very short period of time. So I said, let me ask you a question. And he said, nobody ever asked this question. And it must be because of Mit, my relationship to Mit. Very smart. He goes, I say, what would happen if the boat sank from its weight? And you're in the boat and you have this tremendously powerful battery? And the battery is now underwater.

And there's a shark that's approximately ten yards over there. By the way, a lot of shark attacks lately. Do you notice that? A lot of sharks. I watched some guys justifying it today. Well, they weren't really that angry. They bit off the young lady's leg because of the fact that they were, they were not hungry, but they misunderstood what, who she was, these people.

David Pakman
Of course.

Donald Trump
Anyway, he said, there's no problem with sharks. They just didn't really understand a young woman swimming. Now it really got decimated. And other people, too. A lot of shark attacks. I said, so there's a shark ten yards away from the boat. Ten yards or here. Do I get electrocuted? If the boat is sinking, water goes over the battery, the boat is sinking. Do I stay on top of the boat and get electrocuted? Or do I jump over by the shark and not get electrocuted? Because I will tell you, he didn't know. The entry said, you know, nobody's ever asked me that question.

David Pakman
Okay, there's ten more seconds, but I don't think we need them. I think you get the point. Okay.

This is not normal behavior in any way. This is someone who can't think sequentially. This is someone whose vocabulary has become limited and repetitive. This is someone with serious paranoid delusions. And I hate to say this, and some people aren't going to like this. And I can see the hate mail piling up now.

One potential reason that Trump's very obvious mental illness is not getting as much attention as it should is that unfortunately, there is a ton of undiagnosed and untreated mental illness in this country, and much of it is chalked up to being quirky or whatever. And it is conceivable that many people don't have the ability to discern that this is not normal behavior. It's a sad state of affairs, but it continues to go slowly more mainstream. And I want to talk about one more instance of that on MSNBC for a moment. Nicole Wallace on MSNBC yesterday did a story about Donald Trump's crumbling brain. She's talking about it. And there is a little bit of a too little, too late aspect to this, but I still think it's important to recognize it when it's being discussed. Something is very wrong with Trump. And because the decline has been steady but slow, and because right wing media has successfully set the agenda on Biden's verbal problems, despite his lifelong stutter, we have not seen the coverage of this that we should, here is Nicole Wallace bringing this up, and I think that we should encourage corporate media to be talking about this. Take a listen to what she had to say.

Nicole Wallace
We have a story for you. It starts like this shot chaser at a time when the ex president, now convicted felons, rantings and ravings about things like sharks and electric boats and whether he'd go with electrocution or getting eaten by the shark, have everybody, regardless of political persuasion, talking about his state of mind at that moment, a merchant of right wing talking points, and sometimes even disinformation is going into overdrive with calculated and relentless regional attacks on President Joe Biden. Statements by Donald Trump, on the other hand, so unhinged Fox News didn't carry them or broadcast them, didn't go back and air them after the fact either. In the words of Stephen King, that speech was, quote, like listening to your senile uncle at the dinner table after he has that third drink. So that performance and others like it are reviving real questions about Trump's stability, his mental acuity.

David Pakman
So listen, Nicole Wallace is completely right. Tons of people don't even know that this is the way Trump is behaving because they don't watch the rallies.

And then the media that they watch also don't cover the outrageous things that are happening at rallies. So I don't know that this is going to become the story, the story leading up to November. But, but we've seen in the last 72 hours MSNBC talk about it, a PBS segment involving NPR reporters where it was discussed. Washington Post op ed columnist Eugene Robinson write an entire opinion piece about what's going on with Donald Trump's brain and mental illness. This has to continue. And I know that some of you will say, you know, there's a whole bunch of maggots, David, who just don't care. They're committed. They're going to call this a conspiracy theory no matter what. We can't really reach them. And that's true. That's probably true. But there is a reachable middle. And if you want proof of that, look only at the fact that after Trump's conviction, 49% of independents said Trump should drop out. There are people that are somewhat tethered to the facts as they are laid out and happening. And it is important not to ignore those people. So I think it's great that Nicole Wallace is talking about this. PBS NewsHour Eugene Robinson it needs to be pushed further into the discussion, particularly, particularly as Trump is starting to lay the groundwork to not debate on June 27 blaming it on Biden or the lack of a drug test or whatever.

Even Hannity now, and we covered this earlier this week, even Hannity is starting to lay the groundwork for maybe it's not worth it to Trump to show up, when, of course, the reason it would be a risk for Trump to show up is that he's so incoherent, particularly during evening appearances, as multiple mental health professionals have pointed out. So bottom line, glad we're seeing a little bit more of this in corporate media. We have a voicemail number you can call anytime if you have a message for me.

I appeared on Megyn Kelly's program last week. Here is a caller weighing in on whether it is worth me doing these sorts of appearances or whether it's a waste of time. Take a listen.

Donald Trump
David is Jeff from Colorado. I listened to your interviewer, whatever you want to call it, with Megyn Kelly and their bozo friend. And that was worthless. Sorry. You did a great job. You did what you could. Put it that way.

I wouldn't waste time doing that again. There was no interest from Megan or that other bozo and having any sort of honest discussion.

Nice job, speaker one.

David Pakman
So here's the thing. I do agree in a sense. You know, Megyn Kelly and Hogan Gidley, they're double teaming me. It's two on one. They're interrupting me. I get it. I get it.

I do think that those appearances can be worthwhile because the clips then spread like wildfire. If you look on tick tock and on other platforms. A ton of creators are reposting the content, talking about the content, improving upon or even helping to elaborate better rebuttals to the things that I was faced with. I do think that there is this longer tail effect that can be positive. But as far as my time, I mean, it's, you know, between the dealing with the producers beforehand, they make you connect to zoom a half hour early.

It's an hour appearance. There's commercial breaks, all these different things.

I could certainly be doing other things with my time. Just sitting around and reading a book, in a sense, would be maybe more personally productive. But I do think that there is value to this. So I see both sides. I don't know that they're necessarily going to have me back on, but I wouldn't write off the value of doing these sorts of things. We have a fantastic bonus show for you today. The House has voted to hold Attorney General Merrick Garland in contempt. Why? And does this make any sense? We'll talk about it. North Dakota has passed a measure to impose age limits on congressional candidates.

Why are they doing this? And does it make sense? And lastly, friend of the show and former guest, former congresswoman Debbie McCarsel. Powell is running against republican senator Rick Scott in Florida, and she is surging in the polls. This did not appear to be an in play race six months ago. It very much now does. We will discuss that and so much more on today's bonus show. Don't miss it. Get instant access@joinpackman.com.