Inside the US-Russia Prisoner Swap

Unidentified Speaker
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Brad Milker
It'S Friday, August 2, and they're coming home. We start here.

Two Americans held captive. Bye. Russia. Have been released.

Unidentified Speaker
Their brutal ordeal is over, and they're free.

Brad Milker
This was part of a much larger deal, though, with implications worldwide. And our Moscow reporter has the latest. Vice President Kamala Harris has to choose her own VP candidate soon.

Rick Klein
She is laser focused on beating Donald Trump, and she doesn't get to do anything else without that.

Brad Milker
We'll go through her possibilities. And having another child relied on paying someone else to carry it for her. Now all that money is gone.

Anna Maria Galazi
What this woman has done has ruined families.

Brad Milker
The international scandal sweeping the world of surrogacy.

From ABC News, this is start here. I'm Brad Milker. Can we all just take a moment and think about how bizarre July was? We had a former president almost assassinated. The current president dropped his bid for re election. We had seismic attacks rocking the Middle east. We had a Supreme Court rule that presidents are immune from prosecution for official acts in office. A lower court dismissed a case against Donald Trump, and a technical glitch caused offices and airlines around the country to fall apart. July was heavy, which was why yesterday, as August began, it felt like it was time for some good news.

When it comes to Evan, when it.

Rick Klein
Comes to Paul Whelan in Russia, other.

Unidentified Speaker
Americans, we're working it quite literally every day.

Brad Milker
So you probably remember for the last 16 months, a Wall Street Journal reporter named Evan Gurshkovich has been sitting imprisoned in Russia. Gurshkovich was sentenced to 16 years on espionage charges, which he denies. Paul Whelan, a former Marine, had been there even longer. He was detained in Russia five years ago.

Paul Whelan
I am innocent of the one and only charge against me, a crime that never occurred to.

Brad Milker
In fact, while in prison, he saw other american captives, Trevor Reid and Brittany Greiner, detained and released as part of different prisoner exchanges that did not include him. Paul's twin brother David actually spoke to start here about this a couple years ago.

Paul Whelan
Someone in the us government had somehow contacted him and made a representation that he might be coming home with Trevor Reed. And so you can imagine the just staggering disappointment. He said, why was I left behind?

Brad Milker
Well, yesterday both Gurskovich and Wieland were freed along with several other prisoners as part of a massive prisoner exchange between the US and Russia. Let's go straight to ABC's foreign correspondent Patrick Rievel, who used to be based in Moscow and has been following these stories for years now. Patrick, first off, can you just walk us through this exchange and how it happened?

Patrick Rievl
Yeah. Hi, Brad. I mean, this is an extraordinary exchange on a scale that we haven't seen.

People are saying, really, since the cold war. 16 prisoners freed by Russia and then eight Russians freed by the US and allied countries. The first sort of inkling that this was happening right now was that suddenly several high profile russian political prisoners, including Paul Wieland, went missing from the prison camps where they were being held. Their lawyers announced they couldn't find them. And then people were trying to work out, of course, where will this take place?

And a russian government plane landed on the tarmac in Turkey, in Ankara, the capital of Turkey. We were watching it live. No one knew for certain if anyone was on board that plane. And at a certain point, the turkish intelligence service announced in a sort of triumphal statement that they had played a key role in coordinating one of the biggest prisoner swaps of the last several years and that all of these people were now being exchanged there in Turkey.

The Wall Street Journal reported that Evan Gorzkovich is free. I think that was the moment that people saw the words that they had been looking for.

Unidentified Speaker
Their brutal ordeal is over, and they're free.

Patrick Rievl
Eventually, President Biden then came out, it appeared, with the relatives of some of the people being released.

Unidentified Speaker
They never gave up hope.

We can't imagine what they've been through.

Paul Whelan
All of you, we didn't have very high hopes that this was ever going to happen.

Patrick Rievl
We've also saw Paul Whelan's twin brother release a statement thanking people for the support.

Paul Whelan
I didn't really allow myself to believe that it was going to happen until I saw that announcement by the White House. And, of course, we're overjoyed.

Brad Milker
Well, and so many of the headlines that we've been seeing are about Evan Gurshkovich, the prominent journalist, and Paul Whelan, because he's been there so long. He's a retired marine. But what I don't think I quite appreciated was just how sprawling this deal was that other people were brought over with them who aren't even necessarily like Americans trapped in Russia. Right. What can you tell us about the others?

Patrick Rievl
Yeah. Alongside the better known Americans, Evan Gracekovich and Paul Whelan, in this exchange, there were also released a number of russian political prisoners. There's Vladimir Karamurza, who is a veteran pro democracy activist. He was a good friend of John.

Unidentified Speaker
McCain, the Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, and was Paul Bearer, my friend John McCain's funeral with me.

Patrick Rievl
One of the most remarkable things about him was that he was poisoned not once, but twice in 2015 and then again in 2017.

Brad Milker
I experienced a sudden onset of symptoms of, consistent with poisoning that led to a multiple organ failure and left me in a coma and on life support.

Patrick Rievl
His wife and family live in the US near Washington. And despite being poisoned twice, he chose to go back to Russia to campaign against Vladimir Putin, and then also to stand up very strongly against the war in Ukraine.

There was also Ilya Yaschin, who is arguably the best known russian opposition politician following the death of Alexei Navalny.

Brad Milker
Our country should stop being the one that unleashes wars. Our country should be friendly.

Patrick Rievl
And there was, again with him a very serious fear that he could also suffer the same fate as Navalny and die in russian prison. And then alongside them, there were a number of important members of Navalny's team, but also even just people who had protested against the war in Ukraine.

Brad Milker
Wow. So this goes beyond, like, we've been talking about hostages that Russia has. This becomes really an act of, like, international diplomacy because of how big all that is then. I mean, who does Russia get in exchange?

Patrick Rievl
The simplest answer for who did Russia get in return is spies. Spies and criminals. And criminals who may also be spies.

The key figure in all of this is this man, Vadim Krasikov, who was convicted and sentenced for being an FSB assassin in Germany. He shot dead a Kremlin opponent, former chechen field commander, in broad daylight in Berlin. And Vladimir Putin had made very clear in interviews that he was the main person he wanted to exchange in return for releasing Evan Grushkovich. And for a long time, people were uncertain whether the US and Germany could stomach that. And it is remarkable. Clearly, this was someone who was very important to the Kremlin because they were willing to give up so many people. Alongside that, there were also Russians held in the US, including a prolific cyber criminal that had suspected links with russian intelligence. Another man, Vladisov Plushin, a convicted cybercriminal, was believed to have links to the russian hackers who were indicted for stealing Hillary Clinton's emails. And then, of course, there was this incredible case of this couple who were illegals and whose case is drawing comparisons with the tv show, the Americans who were living under deep cover posing as an argentinian married couple or even speaking spanish with their children, they were accused by slovenian authorities of being deep cover russian agents.

Brad Milker
With all that in mind, then, given the sensitivities for both sides, then, because obviously, I feel like this could probably fall apart at any moment then. Right. What do we know about the negotiations as it finally got to this point?

Patrick Rievl
Yeah, I mean, I think in some ways, it's absolutely astonishing that this incredibly complicated deal managed to come together, and we know that they've been doing it for a very long time. President Biden actually revealed, along with other White House officials, that on the days after his transition back in 2020, he had already made it a priority to start trying to get negotiations.

Unidentified Speaker
During the transition, I instructed our national security team to dig into all the cases of hostages being wrongfully detained.

Patrick Rievl
I think one of the most remarkable details is that we learned that at one stage, the Biden administration was trying to free Alexei Navalny, the opposition leader. Instead, he died in a russian prison camp at the start of this year.

Rick Klein
On the very day that he died, I saw Evan's parents, and I told them that the president was determined to get this done, even in light of.

Brad Milker
That tragic news, and that we were going to work day and night to.

Rick Klein
Get to this day.

Patrick Rievl
And then I think another just remarkable detail is that on the day that President Biden decided to exit the us presidential race, he also, according to us officials, was working the phones with Slovenia to try and get this deal through.

A US official has told our colleagues that Biden, an hour before he released his statement announcing he was withdrawing from the presidential race, was talking to authorities in Slovenia, saying, we must get this deal over the line.

Brad Milker
That detail got me, too, because, you know, this is somebody who's looking for any way to stay in the race, and yet he's like, I cannot share this right now. There's no political gain to be had. You just gotta do this. By the way, Biden has said this is why you want to have allies around the world, because of all the help we did get from Germany, from Slovenia, all these countries.

Unidentified Speaker
So for anyone who questions whether allies matter, they do.

Brad Milker
We've been talking about the families and how relieved they must be. The Wall Street Journal says that, you know, this is the end of this kind of long, terrible saga.

For the rest of us, though, for every other american, I gotta think that there's a concern that by playing ball for these russian prisoners, you're giving Russia what they want and encouraging them to go ahead and arrest more americans or arrest more protesters. You'll get something for them later.

Patrick Rievl
You know, that's a fear that I've heard over and over again over the last several years, beginning with Paul Wieland's arrest, and then every time a trade has happened with Brittany Greiner and with Trevor Reid, there was always this very difficult moral question. It is a really difficult moral question. You know, if you try and make these trades, do you encourage Russia to take more people?

And usually the people who are involved in them, ultimately, in particular the people who've been free, when I've spoken to them about it, they come down with this idea that Russia's going to try and take people whatever, and therefore all you can do, all you can try and control is trying to get innocent people out. People are asking, is this also going to affect relations with Russia and is it going to improve relations with Russia? There's a possibility that this is an attempt by Vladimir Putin to take some of the points of contention out in the hope that, or rather knowing that potentially there could be a negotiation around Ukraine coming up. I think more likely this is separate to a degree. This is about the deal.

Brad Milker
What a huge story that goes beyond even just the individual lives here. It really ends up being a story about statecraft at a huge moment for both of these countries. Patrick Rievl, who has been following this for months, who knows Evan Grushkovich personally, I mean, really great reporting throughout this. Thank you so much.

Patrick Rievl
Thanks, Brian.

Brad Milker
Next up on start here, the finalists have emerged. We'll go inside Camp Kamala Harris to learn what she's thinking about a vice presidential nomination. We're back after the break.

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Brad Milker
We often talk about running for president as kind of a job interview, but unlike any job interview you've ever seen. Cause if you haven't been the president before, how do you convince people you're qualified to be one? Well, one of the biggest decisions a nominee can make is their pick for vice president. And this gives us insight into their thinking, their strategies. It can define their priorities. It's a weird way to judge a candidate, but it's one of the few ways we've got. Well, in the last 24 hours, we have seen movement around Vice President Kamala Harris. We know people on the shortlist are giving their job interviews and some are even moving their schedules around in anticipation of a possible announcement. Let's go to ABC's Washington bureau chief Rick Klein. Rick, do you have a sense of what Vice President Harris is looking to accomplish here? Like what is her thinking?

Rick Klein
Yeah, Brad, the biggest thing is she wants to win.

I think that that's the most important calculation. Of course, they'll always talk about someone that's going to help you govern. But she is laser focused on beating Donald Trump and she doesn't get to do anything else without that. She also knows the job of vice president pretty well. You know, historically, it's, it's very rare that a vice president actually delivers the presidency for anyone. Donald Trump made a comment to that effect earlier this week and when asked about JD Vance. But the bottom line is this is on a very compressed timetable. No one expected Vice President Harris to have the opportunity to choose her own running mate like this until just a few weeks ago. And it all has to happen in the space of the next three to four days because of the way the Democrats have structured things. So this is kind of deep stakes on steroids. Usually this goes on for weeks or even months. In this case, it is happening really, really fast with just a couple of contenders on the list that because I.

Brad Milker
Kept being like, why the rush? The convention? Like, Donald Trump didn't pick his person until the first day of the convention. But you're saying because of this virtual convention, it's got to happen soon.

Rick Klein
Exactly. And the Democrats just want to have their ducks in a row and then they're trying to take advantage of it. And the way that the Harris campaign has advised it, it's very unusual. They've talked about a full week of travel next week with, with Harris and her running mate, whoever that is, and have said don't read too much into where she may or may not be going.

Brad Milker
So who is on the shortlist?

What do you know as bureau chief that we don't?

Rick Klein
Well, look, there's four candidates that have risen to the top and we've seen them audition in real time. Starting with Josh Shapiro, the governor of Pennsylvania, probably the most pure political talent in the group under Donald Trump, we had more chaos, less jobs, and less freedom. That is not a recipe for success for the commonwealth of Pennsylvania or the country. A lot of favorable comparisons to Barack Obama in his communication style. And he's from Pennsylvania. He won the state by 15 points, even though it's a very close battleground state. The governor of Minnesota, Tim Walls. My favorite stat about him is he's actually younger than Brad Pitt, but he doesn't look at all like Brad Pitt. He looks like an older statesman and the kind of midwestern spunk that he brings.

Paul Whelan
And three days ago, the nation found out what we've all known in Minnesota.

Brad Milker
These guys are just weird.

Paul Whelan
That's who they are.

Rick Klein
Had some really fiery, good exchanges. He's the guy that started calling JD Vance and Donald Trump weird.

Andy Bashir, we win by caring and.

Brad Milker
Fighting for every single vote in every single county. Every single one of you matters. Are you willing to do the work to turn out that vote?

Rick Klein
The governor of Kentucky. Now, Kentucky's not a battleground state. There's no way the Democrats are going to win there. The idea of picking someone from Appalachia and someone who's only 46 years old and won in a red state might be compelling to balance out a California Democrat in Vice President Harris and then staying out west a bit. Senator Mark Kelly.

Brad Milker
Donald Trump wanted this to campaign on.

Patrick Rievl
He doesn't care about solving the problem.

Brad Milker
He just wants to talk about the problem.

Rick Klein
People know his bio very well. Former astronaut Gabby Gifford's husband and just a really, really special kind of resume that he would ring to this. And Arizona is now a battleground state.

There's a lot of efforts for Democrats to lock down some of the states out west. We've seen some others fade off the list. Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of Michigan, kind of took herself out of the running early on. Same thing with Governor Roy Cooper from North Carolina. I don't think Pete Buttigieg as the secretary of transportation is realistic. So we've kind of winnowed to those four. But of course, Vice President Harris could always have a surprise.

Brad Milker
Upper sleeves, what are the pros or even like the cons of any of these? Like, is there a reason to not pick a senator or not pick a governor or somebody young or somebody old? What is the thinking here?

Rick Klein
Yeah, look, you can always, you're giving something up if you pick someone. And Senator Mark Kelly, if you pick him, well, guess what? Now you have another competitive Senate seat you have to worry about, even with the democratic governor there holding onto it.

You'd have to give up a governor's mansion in a Pennsylvania or a Kentucky or a Minnesota. But I think that's kind of secondary for Vice President Harris and her considerations. She wants someone that she vibes with. Keep in mind, she's a former estate attorney general, as is Josh Shapiro, another mark in that column. You know, she's really made a lot of the generational differences. She's only 59 years old. And all of these men, and they all are men, are kind of the same generation or younger as they try to run against the oldest candidate ever in Donald Trump and one of the youngest vice presidential running mates in JD Vance. So I think you can look at ticket balancing in a lot of different ways. You could pick a battleground state if you want a Shapiro or a Kelly. You can look to bring some extra spark to it in Governor walls, or you can look to just have a totally different demographic and geographic appeal in someone like Governor Bashir.

Brad Milker
Hey, and you mentioned JD Vance, so really quick. I was thinking, like, his PR issues that we've seen over this last week or two, his past comments about childless women, I feel like it's reminded people how much the VP pick can end up dominating the conversation, even if, like, we don't see a lot of scientific results like that. They affect the vote all the time. What is the worst case scenario for Kamala Harris here? Like, what is the nightmare that you're trying to avoid?

Rick Klein
The nightmare, in two words, is Sarah Palin. I love those hockey moms. You know, they say the difference between a hockey mom and a pit bull lipstick, where that becomes the all consuming story. And all you're talking about is what the running mate is. Or, you know, you go back a little bit and you look at Tom Eagleton, and he had to get dumped from the ticket because of controversy around him. You want to do no harm, first and foremost. And there is always the opportunity or the possibility of a running mate to be the whole focus of attention in a bad way.

That's always a problem if scandal or other information comes out. And that's one of the things that makes this pick a little bit dangerous.

Usually the weeks and months are spent with lawyers, lawyers looking at all the information, financial documents, opposition research files, anyone that's ever peddled a story about someone, all of that can come out. But if you're all doing this in the space of ten days or so, it's possible that something slips past the vetting teams and that someone gets on the list who might have something in his or her past that that's problematic.

Brad Milker
Really interesting moment. And again, you think, we got to see this early next week or so. All right, Rick Klein, our Washington bureau chieftaine. Thank you so much.

Rick Klein
Thank you, Brad.

Brad Milker
Okay, one more quick break. When we come back, they promise to help people grow their families. Instead, they shrank their bank accounts. One last thing is next.

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Brad Milker
And one last thing. You would never think of having a child as a business decision. But when business does go bad, you realize just how vulnerable you are.

For the last several weeks, our investigative team has been examining the story of families like Anna Maria Galazi. So you live with your husband, and.

Anna Maria Galazi
You have a toddler and two rambunctious puppies. Yes.

Brad Milker
Anna Maria lives in Austin, Texas. She's 33 years old, and a few years ago, she was diagnosed with stage four breast cancer. This wasn't just scary. It also completely upended her plans with her husband to get pregnant.

Anna Maria Galazi
In the two weeks that I had before I started chemo, we did an IVF cycle so that we could have embryos to be able to have a child.

Brad Milker
Anna Maria successfully harvested her eggs with five of them becoming fertilized embryos. She's a devout Catholic and wanted every one of them to get a shot at life. And since she couldn't carry a child to terminal, she and her husband decided to enter the world of surrogacy.

Anna Maria Galazi
I was born and raised Catholic. The church has told me that this is bad. I actually went and spoke to my priest. He said, do what you feel brings the most love into this world.

Brad Milker
Now, a surrogate, of course, is someone who carries a pregnancy on another person's behalf. It's different from adoption in that you're seeking out someone who will agree to have your embryo implanted in them. Sometimes it can be a close friend, you know, but there are also services that find these people.

Anna Maria Galazi
They do a matching. It's like online dating, but for a surrogate.

Brad Milker
Annamaria successfully had her first child via surrogacy. And what I had never quite considered were the financial arrangements that have to go into this. Most families agree to reimburse surrogates for their medical costs, of course, but also maternity clothes or the money it takes to maintain a healthy diet. Some even pay a sizable fee of tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Anna Maria Galazi
You are carrying a baby and being compensated for the time and the pain and suffering in which you're doing this beautiful gift.

Brad Milker
But what do you do with all that money? If you're a parent, you don't want to pay it up front in case something goes wrong. And if you're a surrogate, you don't want it all at the end in case the parents shortchange you. So in recent years, these financial firms have sprung up offering surrogate escrow accounts the same way you do when you're buying a house. You give your money to a neutral party.

Anna Maria Galazi
All that money goes into an escrow account. There are only three or four surrogacy escrow accounts in the nation. Seem surrogacy escrow account Management, LLC, which is who we're talking about today.

They had been in business since about 2013.

Brad Milker
Well, this is where this story takes a turn, because a few weeks ago, after putting $65,000 into this account for their surrogate, just before an embryo was scheduled to be implanted, Anna Maria learns their payments aren't being disbursed.

Anna Maria Galazi
Our agency called us on June 11, and they were like, hey, we're hearing some things. We're uncomfortable. What we're hearing would seem.

We think you should try to pull your money out. I was like, what do you mean, try?

Brad Milker
A few days later, Annamaria says she saw a cryptic post from the head of seeme. Her name is Dominique Seid, reassuring customers that everything's fine, but also that there has been no wrongdoing and that she won't be answering questions.

Anna Maria Galazi
Everything's frozen. She's not answering. My husband got there faster than I did. Where? He was like, our money's gone. It's just nowhere to be seen.

It took me a minute.

Brad Milker
This has now become a sprawling scandal, with families in several states and even in foreign countries accusing this Houston based surrogate escrow company of stealing their money.

Rick Klein
I remember thinking so many times like, this cannot be. This can't be real.

Brad Milker
Yeah. I mean, your stomach just sort of drops out. The bottle. We sent the money, and she walked away with it.

Anna Maria Galazi
We were just in shock. This is what you read about in the news. We're regular people. This doesn't happen to us.

Brad Milker
So where did the money go? Well, according to a lawsuit filed on behalf of at least 30 families, Dominique Seid was using these payments less like escrow accounts and more like a slush fund for her other businesses.

Anna Maria Galazi
What I didn't know at the time was that she was trying to be a rap artist and opened up Vegan Bay studios and opened up a vegan bay clothing line. And I was trying to be a life coach, which now is pretty hysterical looking back at it.

Brad Milker
Dominique side has not responded to ABC's request for comment. And when you get her voicemail, a computer generated voice says she's not going to speak about this. My company and I have been noticed that we are subject to an active investigation by federal authorities. ABC News did manage to reach side's mother, who said her daughter would never intentionally do anything wrong.

Anna Maria Galazi
What this woman has done has ruined families.

Brad Milker
In the meantime, though, Anna Maria says her family has been devastated financially and that her dream of having another child has been stolen from her. Well, and I guess my last question is then, what is the state of your relationship with your surrogate now then? If, like, if so much of this is contingent on, like, you need to have money to live, what is the, what's the status then.

Anna Maria Galazi
Because of all of this, our surrogate actually terminated her contract yesterday.

This has added too much stress on her and financial stress on her family and other things are going on in her family, that this was, quite frankly, the last thing she needed on her plate.

And so I would say we're back at stage zero. But I think we're at stage, like, negative five at this point because without funds, there's not a way for us to move forward.

Brad Milker
And this is what I mean when I talk about the vulnerability of being a prospective parent, like in any pregnancy journey, there are so many things outside of your control. And with the dawn of new services like fertility centers and surrogacy matching programs, Anna Maria sees a surprising lack of federal regulation.

Anna Maria Galazi
I'm not rich. People who you are seeing going through this are not rich. One of the families sold their cars.

Other families have also refinanced their house. Right. Like, we're just trying to make this american dream come true for us and build a family.

Brad Milker
Pregnancy as a rule is not fair. Anna Maria knows this. She lost another embryo to miscarriage just a month before this that she says she can handle. But if surrogacy is all about someone else helping you carry on, well, this burden is going to be tougher to bear.

I feel like we've done stories on fertility clinics and like the entire fertility industry, the surrogacy industry, so interesting. I'm so glad that Annamaria was willing to share her story at this difficult moment. Start here is produced by Kelly Torres, Jen Newman, Brenda Salinas Baker, Vika Aronson, Cameron Chertavian, Anthony, Ali, Mauro, Milwaukee and Amira Williams. Ariel Chester is our social media producer. Josh Cohan is director of podcast programming. I'm our managing editor. Laura Mayer is our executive producer. Thanks to Lakia Brown, John Newman, Tara Gimble and Liz Alessi. Special thanks this week to Chris Berry, Ben Siegel, Will Gretzky, Becky Perlow, Jim Hill and Cindy Galley. I'm Brad Milke. See you next week.

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Inside the US-Russia Prisoner Swap

Primary Topic

Episode Summary

Main Takeaways

Episode Chapters

1: The Swap Unfolds

2: Personal Stories

3: Diplomatic Dynamics

Actionable Advice

About This Episode

People

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Transcript