Wendy Talks About Her Pyromaniac Past

Wendy Zuckerman
Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman, and you're listening to science versus. And today we have something really special for you. So recently I flew to LA to be interviewed by Emma Chamberlain. She's a youtuber. She has her own podcast.

It's called anything goes. And Emma has been described by a friend of mine as Gandhi for 21 year olds. I was very excited to meet with her, but I have to say that when I arrived in LA, I was quite jetlagged. And just between us, I might have had a cheeky nap in the green room, but then I met Emma and we just got along like a house on fire. And we had this really, really fun chat.

We talked about the science of vaping and alcohol, ketamine and orgasms. We talked a lot about orgasms. And I just had so much fun that I wanted to share this interview with you. We also talked about the time that I was accused of being of a pyromaniac and was almost kicked out of uni for it. So I hope you enjoy this interview.

This is what we're going to play for you today. And if you are listening to this on Spotify, you can also watch this interview. That's right. This is on video. You might be looking at me right now.

Hello. If you're listening on another app, just enjoy. Beautiful audio. All right, this is Emma Chamberlain interviewing me for her podcast, anything goes. Hope you enjoy.

Emma Chamberlain
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Wendy Zuckerman
Learn more at, uh, one.com. Were you a science kid in school? Because I was. Oh, I was not really. I mean, like, you know how, like, you backpedal your life story and you're like, I was meant to be a science journalist.

Or. And there is. I. Like, I did find, because now I live in Melbourne, like, back in my hometown, and I did find a book that I wrote when I was, like, in year two or something that was like, how plaque forms. Oh.

And it was like, basically what I'm doing now. Like, it was like, you know, the little bacteria live on your teeth. And I was like, look, I was destined to be, but the truth is, like, I wasn't really that interested in science at all. I guess I was more of a drama kid. That's so funny.

Emma Chamberlain
So you were not into science, but were you naturally maybe curious? Not even. I mean, I studied it, so, like, finished high school and was like, I don't want to get a job yet. So I got to go to college and then was like, curing cancer is a thing that seems great in the world, so that's why I studied. I studied biomedical science.

Wendy Zuckerman
And it was just. And then was really bad. I'm a nerd in that I want to get good grades, so I was studying really hard, just wrote, learning stuff. Didn't really understand anything. In, like, my second year of uni, I had the Bunsen burner.

Like, I was terrible in lab. Had the Bunsen burner on too high and melted some equipment. It was so bad that I almost got kicked out of uni because they were like, you must be incompetent. Like, you. They didn't believe I could be incompetent, so they were like, you must be a pyromaniac.

What? And I managed to convince him. I was like, no, I didn't do it on purpose. I swear. Whoa.

I just did it anyway. And then I walked out of that meeting and was like, okay, clearly I'm not gonna be a scientist. Okay. But then somewhere along the way, like, realized that what I love is science stories is, like, there's so much, like, fun stories of discovery to be found in science. Yep.

It's like how we know how the world works. It's how we know, like, why you should go on one diet and not the other. Like, why. Whether jumping into, like, ice water makes you feel better, like, it's how we know anything. Yes.

And so that was fun. That was fun to, like, talk to scientists and explain things. And I think because I was so bad at it, it helps me explain because nothing's. It wasn't intuitive when I was starting out, you know? Yes.

Say complicated science things, and I'd be like, I don't understand. Please say it again. See, that is such a perfect niche for you. It's like you are curious about all of it. You love it.

Emma Chamberlain
Your job is then translating it into human. Yeah. It's a totally different skill to translate it to human. And that's kind of what you do. That's what I.

Wendy Zuckerman
And I think, like. Cause I had these, like, my parents who were both academics, funnily enough. So I guess that must have been another. Another thing in the mix. They always telling me, like, if you don't understand something, just, like, ask more questions.

Don't ever feel stupid for not understanding something. If someone's trying to teach you something and you don't understand it, you just keep asking questions. And so I think that really helps. It's like if a scientist is just using these complicated words. I mean, by now, I've been in the game for so long, I can speak the language.

Emma Chamberlain
Yes. But when I was starting out, there was just a lot of. Okay, so what was that? What do you mean? Yes.

Wendy Zuckerman
Any analogies you can help me out with? So it's been fun to, like, marry the two worlds. Yeah. Now your specialty is translating things to human and sort of sorting through all the different sort of scientific misconceptions. I think because the scientific language is so complex, it can be misunderstood so easily, which is why your voice is so important, but also so exciting for people.

Emma Chamberlain
Because it's like, now I get it. Like, now I get it. I understand, because it's like, there's always so many conflicting ideas. And ultimately, you know, I think science is relevant for everybody because it's like, we all use it to figure out how to have a better life. It's so important.

But if you google something, you're gonna find 90 different results. Yes, there's so much garbage. And what's funny is, like, when I started science versus the world of bullshit, online was just starting. I mean, I guess that's what I was seeing. And I was like, oh, I should make a podcast where we're looking at things in the zeitgeist and really examining them and really reading the scientific papers, because we don't want to be regurgitating more of the misinformation.

Wendy Zuckerman
We're down there reading the scientific papers, then translating them. But when I started science versus, I was like, we've got four seasons in us. You know, like, once we tackle, like, yes, climate change exists, you know, yes, vaccines, like, you know, are good for you. And, yeah, we need to be taking them despite, you know, minor risks here and there, you know? Yeah, once you hit the top, I was like, all right, all right, this show is gonna be right.

But the Internet has just kept minting bullshit. Like, it's like, as if it was just coming for me. No, it's. It's never ending. It's never the diet, like, more and more diets every year.

There's foxing, there's keto. There was now, like, last season, I did, like, seed oils. I was like, where does, like, now. We'Re not allowed seed oil. Yes.

Emma Chamberlain
What? Where did this come from? Yep. And I was like, thank you. No, it's amazing.

The thing is, is that humans love. I think humans love, and you've probably noticed this over the years. We like to find a band aid. We want to find a band aid for things. We want to find an explanation.

And honestly, I'm somebody who is somewhat. I'd like to say that I'm not, but I am somewhat. We all are susceptible to these big claims. Well, we want an answer when something's wrong with our health, when we know we're not functioning the way that we used to, like, whether, like, our brain's feeling foggy or, like, tummy's not feeling right, we're like, what could it be? What could it be?

Wendy Zuckerman
And, you know, going to doctors, like, I'm all about the, like, healthcare system and go to your doctor, but, like, they can be assholes and they cannot listen to you. Totally. At the same time, as we're seeing this sort of rise of misinformation online, there's also a greater appreciation that, yeah, you go to your doctor, if you don't have a gp that you like, they might just be like, it's all in your head. Live with it. Is it really that bad?

Take some medication that has nasty side effects. And so it doesn't surprise me that people are then going online, finding influencers, people that they are giving them other solutions and then running with that. So I totally get the situation that we're in. Yeah. But it just does mean that I think a lot of vulnerable people who are searching for solutions, who don't have, like, the doctor, the medical care that they need, I think they are getting trapped in this world where they're, like, buying supplements they don't need going on diets they don't need to go on, like.

And that. And so that's why it feels good to make the show, to be like, well, look, here's what might be going on. Here's what. Maybe you don't need to be buying this. Maybe jumping in ice cold water will be helpful, you know?

Emma Chamberlain
Yep. So I get it. So I think, like, as I've been making the show, I've been way more empathetic to all of us who are just, you know, I think maybe when I was starting, I came in from like a real, like, on high of like, yeah, I'll read the science and tell you what the answer is. But now I'm like, I get it. It's really, really hard out there.

Yep. And so we're just like, trying to put good information out there. What do you think is the reason for so much misinformation? Like, I, you know, when I think about it, one reason could be like, there's a company benefiting from misinformation, possibly. Like, that's maybe one source or a person.

A person or a person. Do you think it's more nowadays influencers and sort of uneducated individuals or like, you know, individuals who lack the credential to be spreading information? Do you think it's those sort of people who kind of wanna provide an answer to maybe build a following and so people will sort of trust them and look to them for answers? Or do you think it's more like corporations that are interested in spreading misinformation? Or do you think it's a combination?

Wendy Zuckerman
Oh, interesting. The ones that really piss me off. I don't know. When we look at the big problem of misinformation online, generally, I think it's individuals, like corporations have. We always know, like, we know capitalism exists.

They're there to spread a message of propaganda. I feel like people know. People have in their heads, like, if you see a shell ad for, like, we're interested in renewables, everyone's head is like, fuck off now. Like, you know, everyone's like, I don't. Okay, yeah, yeah.

Thank you for your contribution to climate change. Totally appreciate it. Like, I understand the, like, we understand the language. We, like, see through. Maybe a corporation.

Exactly. But with individuals, that's where I see people really getting sucked in. And so, and, you know, sometimes you have these, like, really. I don't want to name any names, but, you know, in the, in the wellness influencer sector, there are these, there are some really big names who kind of use, what I see is they use our mistrust of corporations. Yes.

To then twist things on their head. So a story that I hear over and over again is like, you can't trust big pharma. You can't even trust science. They're all in it for the money. Instead, what you need are natural supplements.

And guess who sells them? Me. And guess who has a code. And guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you're like, they're like, follow the money, man. Follow the money. Like, you can't trust pharma. And it's like, I'll follow the money right to your damn pocket. And it's just this story.

And I'm like, how are people getting sucked into this? But I know why. It's this thing that, like, sometimes science calls the guru effect, where you have these guru. They have this, like, which you've talked about on this show, parasocial relationship where they feel like, you know, oh, it's my friend. I can trust them.

And then all of a sudden you're buying these supplements when it's like, unproven. You are putting money right into their pockets. Exactly. Shitting on science. I'm like, excuse me.

Emma Chamberlain
Well, that's the thing that's so annoying about it. I think, too, especially, is the blatant and so obvious hypocrisy. It's like, right there. It's like, babe, it's unbelievable. But I also.

It's such a perfect business model despite it being evil. It's genius. Cause it's the perfect manipulation because it's playing into, like, well, I'm a small business and I'm, you know, and I'm an individual, and I've healed my issues through this, you know, turmeric supplement. Yeah. If you say, like, oh, you know, you can cure this, this and that using this, you know, supplement that obviously doesn't work.

There's no science to show that it works. It's potentially very dangerous, particularly if you're not saying things like, you need to make sure you take traditional, conventional medicines, too.

Wendy Zuckerman
So that really pisses me off. And then the other thing that I see a lot of. Cause you were sort of mentioning is it influencers who maybe are uneducated, but actually I see a lot of people who have MD wearing their scrubs out there on TikTok talking bullshit. And I'm like, that really pisses me off because they're clearly using their healthcare education. Like, whether it's their rns or whatever it is, they're using that.

And they know they're using that to get people to think, oh, I can trust them. They've got their scrubs on. They probably came out from seeing a patient or something. And if you're wearing your scrubs or you're like a doctor, you need to be really careful about your facts. And so often I'm like, because part of the show is looking for what's the Internet saying about a particular thing.

And I'll see these doctors saying stuff, and then we fact check it with experts in the field. And I'm reading the papers and I'm like, that's not real. So this is, like, what we're fighting against. I'm like, if you are about to go on a show like this with an audience, take some responsibility, get your facts right. So let's play devil's advocate then.

Love it. We're all human, right? Including the experts, including, you know, the people writing, you know, the most advanced, the most modern, you know, the most accurate scientific papers. Yeah. Can we really trust anything for sure, in your opinion?

No. Great. It's a great question. It's a great question. So here's my pitch for why I love science.

I do, too. Why I think we can trust science. So at its best, science is just testing all these theories we have, whatever it is. Like, will this skincare product reduce wrinkles? Will.

Will this. Will ketamine cure depression? You can say that, or even you can have had an amazing experience, or you and your friends can have had amazing experiences and you can tell people about it, but you'll never know. Does this actually work? Or was it.

I took ketamine. I felt great for a month or whatever. Was it something else that happened that night? Were you actually moving to. Was it starting to be a good place in your life?

And then you felt great. So the only way you could actually know, was it the ketamine that caused it and, like, that caused this benefit? Let's stick with our ketamine example. Yep. Like, is to actually do a study where not only do you take, like, let's say, 100 people and give, who have depression and give some of them ketamine, you also need to give some of them a placebo because the placebo effect is so powerful.

Emma Chamberlain
So powerful. It's so. And like, I. No, sometimes people hear that and they're like, oh, it's all in your head. It's like.

Wendy Zuckerman
But no, it should be something that we can all harness. Like, it is wonderful that the placebo effect, it's amazing. It's amazing that we can cure ourselves with our minds to a certain extent for certain things, you know? But it does mean that every clinical trial worth its weight in anything has to have a placebo arm. Yep.

Because if you tell someone, like, hey, I got a great new drug for you, you want to try it, and, like, all of a sudden they feel better. It's like, who knows if it was the placebo or ketamine? Yes. So science is the way that we can do that, that we can find that out and then through other kinds of studies, that we can actually test the mechanism. How the hell?

Like, ketamine might be having these effects. But having said that, you can't trust a single study. And that's what we've learned and that's, I think what we keep getting caught up with, like the, I don't like saying like the media. Cause I am the media, but the media will often present a single study and be, you know, sticking with the ketamine example and be like, ketamine now cures depression or whatever. Cause there was one study that maybe gave people, you know, ketamine and then checked them the next day and was like, oh, my God.

Their depression scores, which has happened. There have been studies like this where they get people with serious nasty depression, maybe having suicidal thoughts, really bad place, give them ketamine and a bunch of them the next day they're like, they don't even have depression. And there have been studies like that. And then if you report that, you're like, oh, my gosh. Well, this is the cure.

This is the cure, right? But you have to, you have to. And I understand that you cycle yada, yada. But just so people understand sort of how science works, then you just gotta wait and see what's gonna happen with the other studies, right? You want to test it in more people with different kinds of depression.

And ketamine is a perfect example. So now we have more data and we can see that it probably helps about 50% of the people who take it and it probably affects on average last a couple of weeks and then many people will go back to normal. So you see what I mean? How if you. So that's where I think people start to think, like, can you trust science?

Cause you're like, wait, you just told me ketamine was the cure. Now it's not the cure, right? When really it's just like the progression of knowledge. Yep. And so on.

Science versus, and I would just like, encourage people as you're looking on the Internet at studies, you're like, is this just one study? Is this a body of research? Like, how sure can we be that this is gonna hold up? And it doesn't mean that that first study was crap. It just means like, that's what they found once.

Are they gonna find it again? Yes. Yes. See, I think it's also, it's so important for people to remember we have to trust while also understanding that the research never ends. It never ends.

That's right. Like, we will never have this perfect book filled with all the answers. Like, I mean, maybe in like what, 5000 years if, like, whatever, if everything lasts, that long. Like, I don't know. It's like.

Emma Chamberlain
I mean, maybe then. Maybe then. That's exactly. Yeah, that's right. And I think it goes back to what you were saying about how we want to quickly solution and science is a process.

Wendy Zuckerman
Yeah, it's a frustrating, long process, but it's still the best we got. And it's still way better than someone said. Good, too. Amazing. It is actually amazing.

Emma Chamberlain
Like, I feel like a lot of us sort of, we're not grateful enough for the time that we live in. This is actually a phenomenal time to be alive where, like, medicine is so dance. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Like, we're curing shit.

Like, you know, it's, like, crazy hearing stories about different diseases that were just wiping everyone out, like, 100 years ago, and now it's no big deal. Yeah, it's no big deal. Or there's a vaccine. No one even gets it anymore, and we take it for granted. But also, you know, when there are things that go wrong and there are things that, like, we think we understand and then we don't, and then maybe some people.

I don't know, we're all human, and we're doing the best that we can, and we. I think at the end of the day, you know, yeah, there's the man who wants money, and then there's even the individuals who want money. But I think ultimately, we all want to be happy and healthy. We do. Yes.

I think that that is most of our goals. Yes. Yes. And I don't want to be out here being like, science is, like, you know, like, come down from heaven. God was like, oh, there are problems with science, and science does have biases.

Wendy Zuckerman
I mean, I always. I was listening back to our episode on the g spot that we did, which has a very funny history. It feels kind of dated. Now, is anyone talking about the female g spot? I mean, I think people need to be talking about it.

Emma Chamberlain
Let's talk about it. I actually don't know anything about the g spot, which is crazy. Cause I'm the type of person to be like, okay, find it for a guy. But then I'm like, I actually don't know what it is or where it is. I also don't know if anyone would feel good if you found it.

I actually don't know the story of hat. Of, like, how the g spot was born. Yeah. Is wild. Wait, can you give.

Let's do a brief detour and tell us about the g spot, and then. I'll come right back to how it fits into like science could be sometimes. Yes. Elevate every morning with Tommy John's second skin underwear. The luxurious support of second skin guarantees.

Wendy Zuckerman
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Emma Chamberlain
Get 20% off your first order@tommyjohn.com. Spotify. Save 20% at tommyjohn.com Spotify. See site for details. There was this nurse, Beverly Whipple, who was doing.

Wendy Zuckerman
Who I interviewed, still alive today, and she. Oh, gosh, what was this? Eight. Let's put it in the eighties, was doing this study in women who, when they orgasm, they peed a little and in some cases, peed a lot and, like, needed, like, towels. And this was very upsetting for them.

And so she was. Yeah. And so she's studying these women who, at the time, you know, very taboo, very embarrassed about this. And so she started examining them, which meant, this is the time when video's gonna be helpful, I guess. This is.

Yes. Yes. There you go. There you go. Hit it.

Yes. So she would take their vaginas and, like, just kind of, like, insert her finger and then kind of go around, like, in a clockwise direction and be like, how does this feel? How does this feel? How does this feel? And she kept finding that around the.

If you imagine, like, your vagina's like a clock. Yes, yes. Like the 11:00 a.m. To 01:00 p.m.. Slot.

Emma Chamberlain
Okay. Was like, women would start smiling and get excited. I love it. Right? Yeah.

Wendy Zuckerman
And so then she ends up writing a book about it. She goes on the Phil Donahue show. And, like, we found archive from the film. And it's so. It's so funny.

Cause it's like, so, like, you know, but she's out there talking about, like, you know, the best way to do it is with the woman on top. And, like, missionary. She does something like, missionary style. Just doesn't cut it. And I'm interesting.

Like, in the eighties, you know, and you hear Phil Donahue go like, oh, you know what? They can't handle it. They're like, we've never talked like this before. That's amazing. So she starts.

And I think she did this talk once. It starts blowing up. Maybe before she wrote the book, she did this talk, and people were like, you have to name this thing. And at one point, it was gonna be called the whipple tickle. Cause her name is Beverly Whipple.

But then they went for the g spot. Cause g is like. Doctor Graffenberg was another doctor who maybe found this spot. Anyway, so it goes with Phil Donahue. It blows up.

There's all these articles, you know, g spot, g spot. Oh, my God. Can you find it? Let's find it. But in the meantime, no one knew.

Like, what. What was it? Like, is it nerves? Is it a gland? Like, is it.

What's going on there? And it took until the nineties, like, 1998, I think it was, when an australian urologist, Helen O'Connell, was on a totally different track. She was reading. This is where we get back to science can be fucked sometimes. She wasn't really aware of all this g spot talk at all.

She was on. She was studying anatomy. She's, like, a uni student, and her anatomy textbook basically didn't have the clitoris in it. No clitoris. What?

I asked her. It was a blank spot there. And she said, basically a blank spot. What? So she's using this anatomy textbook for four years.

It's got a perfectly formed penis in there. Without it, of course, there's no doubt. There's, like, too much information about the penis in it. But nothing on the clitoris. Nothing.

And she's getting madder and madder and madder about this. And then one day, she gets given this book by a group of feminists in America. It was like, a friend of hers was like, you wanna see this book? And she was like, yeah, I wanna see this book. And it had these beautiful diagrams of, like, like, the vulva and the vagina.

And these women had, like, tried to look at what? At their vagina. But they had this line in it that was like, we. Unfortunately, we didn't have cadavers, so we couldn't, like, dissect to see, like, what's going on in there? And Helen O'Connell's like, I have access to cadavers.

Like, I'm at a medical school. We got, like, cadavers coming out of our ass. So she started to study in, like, the nineties. Whoa. One of the first scientific studies actually dissecting, like, where is the clitoris?

What's going on? What's going on in there? Yeah. Because now I think it's fairly well known that, like, the tip that you see is, like, the tip of the iceberg. You know, it's this very large.

You know, I'm really. This is, like, something that's really good about this. Like, you guys know we know this, right? I feel like even, you know, six years ago, when we were looking into the episode, people were like, whoa, the. Clitoris is so big.

But now we know it's, like, big. It's got, like, a Burt Reynolds moustache kind of vibe coming down. It's big. But she worked that out in 1998, that paper was published. Wow.

And it was only then where we could start being like, wait, so what's the g spot? To take it all back around? Yeah. And she was like, I can't see anything in this, like, eleven to one position. But what I can see is this huge clitoris.

Emma Chamberlain
Wow, this thing is big. Oh, my God. No one's talking about. So, wait, is that actually what it. Is, is that the clitoris just extends inside some women.

So it's a piece of your. Right. Cause I feel like some people can't orgasm vaginally. That's right. Yeah.

Wendy Zuckerman
Yeah. So it's probably. So now our understanding of the vagina and that whole region and the clitoris is like that. The clitoris, the vaginal wall, even the urethra, which is, like, where we pee out of, they all sort of interact in this very interesting way that, like. I don't know.

We use this terrible analogy in the podcast where we were like. Like puppies dancing, like, oh, come on. I love that. That's sweet. And that is now, like the vaginal urethral complex, which is probably what the g spot was in some of these women.

And so there is no spot is bottom line. But why I think it reflects that science can suck sometimes is why wasn't the clitoris in that anatomy? Yeah, how did that get missed? How did that. And the thing is that in the 19 hundreds, Grey's anatomy.

Emma Chamberlain
Of course. Yes. Yes. So Grey's anatomy is a textbook. It's anatomy textbook.

Wendy Zuckerman
Before it was a tv show. In the 19 hundreds, they had the clitoris. Oh, late 1940s clitoris gone. Why? I don't know.

We just fucked. We just. Our, like, entire. Are women's, like, orgasms bigger? Is that true?

Emma Chamberlain
Have you read into that? We did a whole episode on the orgasm gap. Yeah. You know this idea, like, so men, if you ask, like, cis men, like, how often do you orgasm when you have sex? 95% will say yes.

Wendy Zuckerman
You ask, like, women do you want to have a guess how many? Well, let's use my own life.

Emma Chamberlain
No, it's so mean. I'm so sorry to everyone. No. Oh, God. I want to go too low.

I was going to say 40. I was going to say 40%. 65%. Okay, that's good. Yeah.

Wendy Zuckerman
You want to guess so that's all right. That's straight women. Mmm. Do you want to guess? Gay women?

Emma Chamberlain
Oh, it must be way higher. I mean, I feel like that would be, like, 95. Yeah, it's 89. 89%. Very good.

Wendy Zuckerman
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that is so. So that tells us that, like, this is largely not a biological thing.

You know, it's not like it's. It's that much harder to, you know, get us off. No, this is a cultural thing, mostly. Do you think it is harder for women to orgasm? Like, actually, yeah.

So we looked into the science of this. Like, why get into it? Yeah. What is this? What is this orgasm?

What's causing it? Is the female orgasm, like, such a big mystery? Exactly. That was our exact question. And there's been these phenomenal studies.

Like, I love our sex episodes. It's so much fun so far. Right. Because you can really dive deep. Yes.

And because we're just talking science, man. Like, you know, but it's like, also. No one's talking about it in a day to day as much. Cause it is sort of even still sometimes a taboo. Taboo.

Yeah. It's so fun. I love it. Yeah. So they.

So, for example, they've gotten people to go into mris and orgasm and, like, either masturbating or getting their partners. But mris just as, like, fun details. Have you ever had one? An MRI? Yes.

Yeah. So it's loud. It's like. Yes. It's a very weird experience.

Emma Chamberlain
It's a weird experience. It'd be really hard to orgasm in there. It's so hard. Are you kidding me? And also, it's like, do you get any stimulation?

You're in there alone with a loud sound. Good luck using your imagination. You know what I mean? And I know they're not playing a video for you. Like, you're really, like, on your own.

That's so sad. That's so hard. It's so hard. And not only that, if on an MRI, you know how you have to be really still? Movement is the killer of an MRI.

Wendy Zuckerman
You need the image to be crystal clear. That's true. And so researchers had to design a helmet, which she called the researcher, Doctor Nan Wise. She called it the Hannibal Lecter happy helmet because I think it ended up covering the face just so they, like, wouldn't move. So they had to wear this helmet.

Then they had to sort themselves out, or they had a partner. Partner do it. But because it was so loud, the scientists had to be relaying information. She described it as a deranged flight host. Where she was like, she was like, your partner has started orgasming now, and your partner has stopped orgasming now.

Through studies like this, researchers have discovered that the orgasm is a big brain event. There's a lot going on in your brain, which is how it feels, right? So it's not that surprising. And there's. And from what we can tell, the differences between, like, the male and female brain under orgasm.

Very similar. Very similar. There's other similarities going on. Like, when you look at the, like, nerves around the, like, vagina versus the penis. So the biology doesn't.

Doesn't seem to be able to explain the huge differences. One researcher did suggest that because the penis is external, there's, like, more to play with, I guess, like, so you could, like, see, is this a sensitive area? Is this a sensitive area? And you can do that with the vagina, obviously, it's just a little more difficult. It is.

And, you know, and she was saying she studies people in the lab, and she's like, you know, sometimes we are, like, poking around the vagina and, you know, we'll be like, is this nice? Is this nice? And they just, like, can't find it on some. It's kind of, like a mess sometimes in there. Like, even with my own vagina, I'm like, it's a mess because I'm like, what?

Emma Chamberlain
It's not beautiful. A beautiful mess with it, but happy to have it. But, like, like, literally, she's awesome. I love her, but she's just. But, like, even sometimes with me, like, I had to learn.

Even when it's your own vagina, it's not like, you know where your clit is. Yeah. Immediately, all the time. You learn that later in life. Whereas, like, if you have a penis, you can see the penis.

Wendy Zuckerman
Yes. It's right there. There's no, like, oh, wait, where is it? There's no discovery that. Yes, that's right.

Emma Chamberlain
You know, some women I know have, like, maybe a smaller clitoris. So, like, you have to, like. And it might be, like, underfold, so you have to, like, actually move things around just then see it. Like, it's very interesting. But, I mean, yeah, so that tells us that, like, so maybe there's a little bit of biology there.

Wendy Zuckerman
Yeah, but the fact that gay women can orgasm almost 90% of the time tells us that a huge chunk of this orgasm gap is social. It's social. And, like, actually, surveys have been done of, like, college kids, college, like men. And they know where the clitoris is. They're clearly just not finding it.

They don't care. You know, like. Or some men. Some men. Like, oh, no, definitely.

And there's surveys that have been done of women that, like, we prioritize male orgasm. That's when sex ends. And it's really sad. That hasn't changed, right? That hasn't changed.

Emma Chamberlain
No, it has not. Yeah. And that sucks. I remember when I was in high school, I was like, the gender gap on many things. I was like, we're so close to getting that, right.

Wendy Zuckerman
Once we get the wages sorted, equality's, like, in. You know, we got it. We got this. Then we're both gonna come every time. Exactly.

Emma Chamberlain
It's gonna be fucking awesome. And now I'm like, no. Like, no, still. The primacy of the penis. It's still.

Wendy Zuckerman
Sex is done when they come. It's like. And it's all. And you can see it in the data that women will say, I prioritize them. Coming.

Emma Chamberlain
No, I know I've done that. Cause they should be like, okay, now it's your turn. That's how it should work. But it's also like, I think a lot of guys, too, are scared to ask. Well, that's just a sex thing anyway.

It's a very hard conversation to have to be like, you're not doing it. It's not working. It ruins the, like, it doesn't need to ruin it that way. It could just be like, let's try it this way. It could be a fun thing.

Totally. It doesn't need to be your ragging on them or anything. Like, hey, let's try this, let's try that. Do I touch myself while we're doing this? This could be.

Wendy Zuckerman
Yeah, it doesn't need to be negative. I think one day, I think we'll be alive when. When the stats go up and the girlies are having their orgasms just as much and it's all, maybe we'll be alive for that. Would that be such a treat? That would be great.

That would be great. I really thought, you know how, like, there was, like, big dick energy a couple of summers ago? I was like, what about, like, generous lover energy? What about. What about excited clit energy?

You know what I mean? Like, what about well attended to clitoris energy? Why not? Or why are we not doing that? Like that?

We could go through the celebrities in our lives. Cardi bae. Well intended clitoris. You can tell? Yes.

Emma Chamberlain
I. Like, you can tell? No, there's been phases of my life. If you scroll through my instagram, you can tell when my clitoris was not well attended to. You can see that shit in my eyes?

Okay. And then all of a sudden, it's like, one day there's a little glisten back. What happened? Hit in the eyes. Okay, so we're starting that as a hashtag.

You guys all take that and run with it. Oh, that's so good. We just unintentionally answered one of my first questions, which was, let's talk about the orgasm, because that's one of the things that you've dug into. You dug into so many things we need to dig into. Like, there's a few things we need.

Wendy Zuckerman
To dig into that I know that. You'Re like, you've done the dirty work. You've done the research, you've whatever. And one of them is very relevant to me because I was addicted for many years. Vaping.

Emma Chamberlain
Let's have the vaping conversation, because how is. How is your journey going? Great. By the way, what happened to me. Was I, like, made an episode, a podcast episode, being like, I'm quitting.

Wendy Zuckerman
Yes. I woke up one day and I. Was like, I'm quitting. I quit. Then I went through a rough patch, and I was like, there's no fucking way.

Emma Chamberlain
Nicotine withdrawals are tough. And it was like, I just can't. I need this. Like, this is my pacifier. I need this back.

So I started again. Then a month ago, I quit again. And I've gone a month. Yeah. You know, my goal was, okay, I'm gonna quit by the time I'm, like, 25.

Cause you ultimately have to quit when you get pregnant, right? So it's like, I don't wanna deal with pregnancy and having to quit nicotine. Which is pretty when you gotta, like, cut down in your cafe. There's already a bunch of shit to. Do, right, that I love will have to exit my life.

Alcohol as well. Like, I really can't handle all this quitting at once. So to not have a glass of wine on a Friday, wow, that's rough. So, anywho, tell me about. Tell me everything about vaping, because I'll tell you what my.

I always had excuses. Because when you're addicted to something, you always have excuses. You're like, no, like, you know, it's. You know, it's not even, like, there's no tar. Like, with the vape, there's no tar.

Wendy Zuckerman
There's nothing combustible. There's nothing combustible. There's nothing burning. You know, I remember somebody told me once, actually, I think it was, like, a guy I dated for, like, a month. He was telling me.

Emma Chamberlain
Cause he's super addicted to the vape too. And he's like, no, no, no. It's totally fine. It's like the vegetable glycerin. The base of it is.

He said something about it being, like, water soluble, so it won't, like. It's vegan. Yeah. He's like, it's actually really organic. So it's like chia seed vibes.

So it's totally fine. It's like, it's super kale energy. It's super air one coated. They'll start selling it at air one soon. It's organic bears.

Yeah. But also. Oh, my God. Wait, this is. I'm getting ahead of myself, but I'm so excited because he was, like, basically saying, like, oh, so it's safe.

Like, it won't stick to anything. You just exhale it. It's fine. And then also something that. A conclusion I came to was, hold on a minute.

There are all these vapes that are supposed to help you quit nicotine, and they're supposed to be completely safe, but they're quite literally the exact same ingredients. The only difference is there's no nicotine. And it's like, I get that. That then helps you sort of, like, if your oral fixation is what you're the most sort of drawn to, more than even the nicotine itself. See, for me, it was always nicotine as a stimulant.

Like, I think it helps me. Yeah. But they're marketing these alternative vapes with no nicotine as being a healthy alternative. And it's like, this is still you inhaling something. Yes.

So what's the difference there? And there's flavors involved here. And I actually tried one of those once, and I will not say the name. It made my lungs feel very weird. Oh, interesting.

And I did not, like, it made me feel, like, heavy. And I was like, this, I don't like. And I immediately stopped because I was like, I do not like this. But I was like. Anyway, so all of this rambling to say, what's going on?

What's going on with the vein? Okay. Like. Cause honestly, if somebody were to tell me, it's actually totally fine, I'd be like, amazing. I'm gonna fucking vape then.

Like, I would literally, if someone told me right now, okay, it's totally safe, I'd be like, peace out. I would get pregnant. I would literally wait. I would have my babies so that, you know. Cause I was.

Whatever. And then I would then vape for the remainder of my life. So please tell me everything. Yeah. Okay.

Wendy Zuckerman
Unfortunately, I'm not gonna tell you that they're totally safe, but I think a lot of the, like, confusion out there is because as, like, the vast majority of data out there shows that vaping is safer than smoking, but that is because smoking cigarettes is so bad. I feel like we sort of missed out on how bad it was because already by the time we were coming into our own, there'd been all these ad campaigns of how bad it is and we've just sort of forgotten. But one academic told me that cigarette smoking, it's kind of like, you know, it's a bit of a cartoon example, but it's kind of the equivalent of, like, putting your mouth over, like, a car, like, exhaust fumes, and just being like, yeah. You know, like, the amount of cancers that it caught, I think it's like one in three deaths from cancer in the US can be directly caused by smoking. Like, directly contributed to smoking.

It's crazy how bad? Like, it's a. It's crazy that it's legal, but it's so bad for you. Yep. And so to say that something is safer than smoking, it's like saying, like, you know, like being, you know, smoking is being, like, hit by a truck and then, like, dragged for 10 miles.

You know, vaping is like being hit by a jeep, you know, and you're not dragged, but, like. So that's one thing. So I think, like, in the UK, for example, there's this big push to, like, use e cigarettes to quit smoking. Yeah. Because that is still considered safer.

The vast majority of studies, although I will say there was a study that came out recently that kind of suggests otherwise, but I think going back to our point of, like, you look at the data, that's what it suggests. Okay, so given that. So if you're currently smoking cigarettes and want a way to quit and think vaping might help you, I think the data suggests that's a good idea. But vaping compared to nothing, compared to air. Beautiful, beautiful air.

Yes. This is where the friendships are going. To get into trouble. No, I need this. I need to hear this continue.

Yeah. So for a long time, and I almost feel like it was probably like, you know, really in the last, like, ten years or whatever. So first there was just, like, all this talk. It's safe, it's safe, it's safe. And I feel like that's when a bunch of people started taking it.

Emma Chamberlain
Yep. And then the data starts coming out, even though there were always academics that were like, look, it's probably not great. Like, you are still breathing crap into your life. Anytime you're inhaling anything that's not clear, clean air, it's probably bad. Yes.

Wendy Zuckerman
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so, and so we now, so for example, we talked to this researcher who had like, interviewed something like 3000 kids who were like, I don't know, kids, late teens, early twenties, and found that if you vaped, you were way more likely to have symptoms like coughing and wheezing. Two thirds of the people in their sample had symptoms like that. And the researcher was like, this is not normal. Like a 19 year old wheezing.

You know, that's not good. That's a bad vibe. That's a bad vibe. That's not doing good things to your lungs. And it's sort of, you can deal with coughing.

It's not great wheezing, but it's sort of thought that these problems that it's causing to your lungs are like the canary in the coal mine. If you keep vaping, you keep, it suggests that something's going on and your lungs are having trouble. And if you keep bringing that stuff in, it doesn't get better. Yep. And then we have data, like, on the flavors, for example.

So the weird thing with the flavors is that, like, a lot of them have been approved for safety, for eating. Like, that's so, like, that's what's wild is that that's where most of the flavors come from. It's like the, like, cinnamon aldehyde is like the chemical they use for cinnamon vapes, which I don't think is a very popular flavor, by the way. Horrible flavor. Ew, who's smoking that?

Emma Chamberlain
Y'all are weird for that. Okay. Yeah. Ew. Exactly.

So I'll tell you, I haven't smoked that one. So we're good. Continue. Exactly, exactly. So I feel so bad for scientists.

That, like, we finally worked out Cinnamalde. And then everyone's like, fuck that. We don't even like that flavor. It's like, I like the melon one or the leachy one. So that's how they started getting the flavors.

Wendy Zuckerman
They were like, oh, we already know. Like, it gives whatever this chemical gives, like, a cherry, like, to your cherry ripes or whatever. Like, what if you just inhaled it and no one had really done the studies for inhalation. They were just like, it's safe to eat. But we know that, like, our stomach has acids.

Like, our stomach evolved to eat weird, potentially dangerous shit. Like 1000%. Yeah, right. You're eating berries and you're like, it wasn't great. But just, like, get it out.

Emma Chamberlain
You'll be fine. But your lungs weren't designed to, like, shove, you know? No. Like, haven't evolved for that sort of whole industrial style clean. Totally.

Wendy Zuckerman
And we already have examples where stuff that has been safe to eat, we know is not good for your lungs. And so the example scientists like to use is diacetal, which is, like, a buttery flavor that I don't. It shouldn't be put in vapes. Cause we know it's really harmful, but it's put on popcorn. It gives, like, the buttery taste of popcorn.

Yeah. As far as we know, really safe. Like, very yummy. But then in a popcorn factory a couple of decades ago, oh, this is how scientists were, like, desperate to, like, do we know anything about its inhalation? So popcorn factory, where they're making their diacetyls going into the popcorn, but there was an accident, and a bunch of people inhaled a ton of it.

And a lot of them, their lungs just, like, fucked up. A couple needed, like, lung transplants as a result. And that's like the. And it's called popcorn lung, which maybe you've heard of, which sort of sounds like, oh, your lungs turning into popcorns, but it's actually from this popcorn factory. Oh, I didn't know that.

Emma Chamberlain
Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And so that was, like, the first example where, you know, we know that diacetal is bad for your lungs.

Wendy Zuckerman
And there have been examples of people who have inhaled it in a diacetal, in vapes, and then it hasn't been good for their lungs. So, I mean, just generally. And then the propylene glycol, which is the stuff that makes it, like, fog. That makes it, like. It's like a little fog machine.

It is actually the same chemical that's in theater smoke machines. Oh, God, the amount of years that I inhaled, that is so bad. Okay, continue, continue. It is. Tell me the truth.

Emma Chamberlain
Right? I mean, it's. It's, like, fascinating from, like, a chemical perspective that you're like, oh, that stage, like, fog machine. It's like, oh, my God, I'm in, like, a fucking Halloween haunted house. My lungs literally, for years look like a Halloween haunted house.

That is exactly better or for worse, let me tell you. I was having fun blowing my os, but I was really like. But it can't be good. Yeah. You know, or like, you're at a club or whatever they're putting.

It's like a rave in my lungs. Yes. Okay. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And there's evidence that's also not great.

For your lungs, you know? And they even have, like, studies from theater workers who have had to, like, smoke, like, inhale a ton of this stuff and interesting things like that. So we know all these. These. They're not.

Wendy Zuckerman
They're not good. They're not good. And then there's also some upcoming research into nicotine itself, whether that, because there's been a debate for a long time about whether nicotine is even that bad for you because, like, it's addicting, and it's the reason, as you well know, like, that you want to keep coming back. So in that way, it's bad because it's like bringing along being addicted to. Anything'S not good, right?

Well, yeah, I mean, I guess it's a philosophical domain that is. It's funny you say that, because that was something that I, like, did research on. I always would do research and, like, cherry pick the studies or things that I would look at, like, to, like, allow me to continue vaping. Interesting. Like, I would literally cherry pick the self.

Emma Chamberlain
It was, no, I fully know what I was doing, but I would be like, I read one article once that nicotine, as a chemical, it's the same as caffeine. It might be a little bit more addicting, but when it comes to, like, its risks, I guess, well, it was equal. So there's these. So now there's this new. That was kind of how I had understood it as well.

Wendy Zuckerman
And then when we did this episode. Episode and dove in, that was like, kind of for a long time. And because it's so hard to study. Cause most of our nicotine research comes from smokers. And so you're like, how are you supposed to know what caused the damage, like, the nicotine in the tobacco or everything else that you're smoking?

Emma Chamberlain
Exactly. Like, when you burn the tobacco. And so now they're doing research, and it's really at its early stages. So what we've known for a while is that smokers have a high risk of getting depression. And for a long time, there was this question of, like, correlation causation, which is basically this question of, like, what.

Did the chicken or the egg? Chicken or the egg. Did the smoking cause the depression? Were these people already likely to, like. Are depressive people less likely to care about their well being, therefore smoke?

Wendy Zuckerman
Therefore smoke or smoke to already help with the symptoms of depression? It just wasn't clear whether nicotine was. Then they started to see the same pattern with vapors. So vapors were more likely to get depression. Again, you have the same, like, what was going on?

So now, to answer that question, science often uses, like, rodent studies basically to try and find a mechanism. Like, how on earth could nicotine, like, what do we know about nicotine in the brain or in the rat brain? How could it cause depression? Does that even make sense, this early research? And the problem is, it's in rats.

It's not in humans. But what they're finding is that there are some areas in the brain, like the reward center, that, like, makes things feel good. You know, when you smell a flower and you're like, that was nice. Yeah. Like, nicotine does seem to be affecting the reward center in these rats.

Yep. That makes sense. That makes sense. It makes sense. And so there is this question that maybe for some people, it's sort of like, dampening your enjoyment is sort of the theory, which we know is a symptom of depression.

Is that, like, things that used to give you joy or that perhaps give other people joy? Don't you? Like, whatever. Yep. And so that, you know, so that's kind of where the research is at, which is like, we're seeing this trend.

We see it in the rats. And, yeah, we'll have to wait and see. But I don't want to oversell it that nicotine is going to cause everyone's depression because that's clearly not the case. But we're just seeing that pattern. And so it's just another reason, I think, if people want to reduce consumption.

Emma Chamberlain
The few times I've quit insane depression, right. I have. I'm a very anxious person anyway, so I think anytime anything changes. Yeah. My anxiety is just the first thing to react.

Right. But horrible anxiety, like, the worst. That was really bad. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it was really bad.

And, like, mood swings and, like, all these issues. And then, you know, now I'm my nicotine consumption. If you were to, like, look at how much I'm consuming now versus when I was using the babe, it's much less. And I do feel much more emotionally stable, which is interesting. And my parents noticed that, too.

They're like, oh, my God. When you're not. I always get so mad at my mom. Cause she'd be like, I swear to God, the vape makes you a wreck. It makes you a wreck.

And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? I've been vaping since I was 16, bitch. Me being so mean to my mom. And it's like, because I'm vaping. Because I'm vaping.

It's like I'm being rude to her because I'm so strong on this shit. What are you saying? What are you saying? I. Shut up.

Emotionally stable right now. I think it definitely made me, or I noticed that sort of. I don't know. I think there is an emotional impact. Yeah.

Overall, the consensus is we don't actually know that much about vaping, but we know that we shouldn't be doing it. All the signs are pointing to, if you cannot do it, that's great. Yeah. And the less that you do it, the better. Right?

Have you done anything about alcohol? Yeah. Is there any way. Is there any way, like, to drink alcohol? Because I've seen so many contradicting things.

Like, yeah, there's been the study. A glass of red wine every night. It doesn't hurt. I've seen that. Okay.

But then I've also seen, like, tequila with lemon. Totally healthy. That's actually totally fine. And my mom was like, my mom texted me that once and was like, oh, my God. See, this is what you order, so it's totally fine.

Tequila soda with lime or lemon. It's totally fine. And I was like, yay. Or, like, you know, only on the weekends. It's like, if you only have it a few times a week.

Right. Like, if you save it for special occasions, it's totally fine. What are your thoughts on drinking? Yeah, so the alcohol episode was one that, like, actually made me change my habits and really change the way I drink. Yeah.

Wendy Zuckerman
It's actually kind of like a really interesting science story of, like. And hopefully it's just an interesting story of why we thought alcohol was good for your heart. So basically, researchers did these studies where they got. It's like, if someone were like, how would you run a study to find out whether alcohol was good for your heart? You're like, we get 10,000 people.

Whatever. We ask, how much alcohol do you drink? And then you follow them for a bit of time, and you say, whose heart gets hot? Looks the best. Yeah, it looks the best.

And what they kept finding is that, like, the people who drank alcohol seemed to have better hearts than people who drank no alcohol whatsoever. Interesting. And so they were like, this is amazing. I think maybe the first studies were to do with wine, but then later studies came out about all the alcohols, and they were like, oh, my gosh. And then they start telling the story.

Antioxidants. Antioxidants must be good for your heart. Now we have a mechanism. We're in. And then some researchers were like, wait a second.

Wait a second. Like, who are these people who aren't drinking any alcohol at all? And this was, like, pre the non al era, you know? And you might think it would be. And I would have still thought, like, maybe it's like, my body is a temple.

Super healthy. Yep. But it turned out that the group of people who weren't drinking any alcohol at all were actually people who were sick. And their doctors had said, you need to stop drinking alcohol. Right.

And so then there was this big, like, battle in science. Like, maybe it's a little bit good for you, even if you blah, blah, blah. But now I think that the thinking is it's not really that good for your heart. And it was just this, like, this, like, you know, science progresses. Science progresses.

And then. But what we do know is that it is a carcinogen, and it does increase your risk of cancer. I didn't know it was a carcinogen. Yeah. And it's crazy.

I should have known that the breakdown products of alcohol can, like, muck up your DNA and, like. And it cause. And that is what. Because, like, when you get older, people you love start getting cancer. Yep.

And that's what made me really cut down my drinking. I was like. Cause we do so much to prevent cancer. Like, you know, like, I'll do exercise, I'll do this, I'll do that. And then I was like.

But I was still drinking a ton. Totally. And I'm like, oh, what am I doing? Like, I don't need to be drinking a ton. Yes.

Yeah. I'd also, like. I mean, at least for me, it makes me anxious and depressed. Like, it fucks with my brain. Like, when I'm.

Emma Chamberlain
You know, you want to. Crazy. Like crazy. We did an episode on hangovers, so what? That was on my list.

Wendy Zuckerman
Oh, right. Yeah. I think the most surprising, like, episode we've done. Yep. What do you think is the cause of hangovers?

Emma Chamberlain
My guess would be that you're liver is processing. I have no idea, by the way. So. This is so random. So, like, this is my guess.

Wendy Zuckerman
You are, like, we did. We did, like, voxies on the street. Yes, like, vox bobs. And everyone had the same answer, really? Dehydration.

Emma Chamberlain
Oh, but that. No, no, no, but that. That's. That's what, like, I think a lot of listeners, that's what I thought it was. Dehydration.

Wendy Zuckerman
That's the thinking. That's what everyone thinks is that it's being dehydrated. You're being dehydrated. Yeah. Cuz.

Cuz. Um, alcohol. You know, there's this story that alcohol is a diuretic. It makes you pee and then you lose a lot of water and you become dehydrated. Yep.

But actually, anyone who has had a hangover, known about or thought they knew about this dehydration thing. Like, if you ever. I definitely have had, like, a terrible hangover. And I'm like, before we did the. Study, and I'm like, I gotta drink water.

Emma Chamberlain
I gotta drink water. And like, I am peeing like, water. Like, it is like pee clear. You're like, fucking fuck. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wendy Zuckerman
Like, clearly my body is rehydrated. Whatever. Still have a terrible hangover. So the current thinking is that it's actually caused when your body breaks down alcohol, it produces, like, toxic. The breakdown products are kind of like, little toxic.

Like, just a little bit toxic. And it creates this inflammatory response because your body has this immune system where it's like, what's all these toxins doing in my body? And the immune system comes and it starts to be like, get rid of all these toxins, creates inflammation. And that's what's thought to cause, like, the terrible, like, headaches, the real, like, hangover effects, where you're just like, ugh. Like, brain fog, stuff like that.

It's inflammation that makes complete sense. Okay, wait, this is completely this last topic that I need because this is so me. I cannot, we cannot skip, skip this one gossiping. I need the science on gossip. Is it.

Emma Chamberlain
Am I allowed? I'm such a gossiper. I am. But I'm. I believe.

Wendy Zuckerman
Yeah. That it's healthy. Like, that's my belief. Yeah. Because to an extent, I think that it's healthy when it's done responsibly.

Like, when it's not just, like, when it's not harmful the other day, like, it's mean and bitch. It's, it's when it's like, for the sake of analysis, well, just let's discuss gossip. Like, I think a lot of people will say gossip is all bad. You know, it's like, that's a negative thing. There's nothing redeeming there.

Emma Chamberlain
And then some people will be like, no, this is how we connect as human beings. We must, we should gossip all the time. But I don't think that that's probably where the science lands. Like, what, what's the, what's the ruling on gossip? Oh, that's, I mean, that kind of is where the science lands.

Wendy Zuckerman
So we know. Interesting, okay. We know that gossip can be harmful, you know, particularly in like, high school, middle school. We've all been there. It can be really nasty.

You can ostracize. It can. You know, if you're the target of gossip, it can. Of mental health issues. There's also, like, a lot of studies done in the workplace which I hadn't thought of as, like, a gossip mongery place, but of course, it totally is.

Emma Chamberlain
Yeah, I see that. Studies that show that, like, gossipy workplaces, people tend to be less creative, less happy, you know, and we. And we've all been there. Totally. And it is.

Wendy Zuckerman
It's like stifling to be in a gossipy workplace. But then the positives. So, interestingly, like, there was this really fun study that got people, a spanish study that got people to. They were scanning their brains, I think it was an EEG, and gave them either statements that were gossip or statements that were just like, trivia. Right.

I think they started a sentence that was like, the highest mountain in Germany is blah. And then blah, blah. They said, how interested are you in this answer? Yep. And people would answer, whatever.

Very interested, not interested at all. And then for the gossip ones, I think there was one that was like, who did Barack Obama have an affair with? Yes, totally. And people were like, not interested. Like, that's not me.

I'm not interested in that. Then he went back to them, like, a week later and was like, so do you remember what the highest mountain in Germany is? People tended to be like, no. And they're like, do you remember the answer to the Obama question, which was Beyonce? Yes.

Emma Chamberlain
Such a stupid. Which is this huge, like, rumor in Europe. Totally. And so we know that, like, we remember this content. Also, when he looked back at the brain data, he could see that people's brains sort of lit up.

Wendy Zuckerman
They were. It's like the brains were giving them away. The brains were more excited about the gossip, too, even though people said, like, I don't. I don't care about that. Like, I don't.

Emma Chamberlain
So they're morally. Like, I don't care about that. But see, then they're, like, googling it the second they're out of the MRI skit. Yeah. There is something about gossip that we love, and there is a bonding component to it, without a doubt.

Wendy Zuckerman
Like, you meet new friends, you know, who know your other. It's like a connector. Yep. You know, you can feel that love in the room when you've got some great story about a friend. It may not be bitchy.

Yeah. So there is, like, a bonding component. And so I think, like, where our episode landed. And maybe it's where the science landed is, like, if you could gossip in a way that isn't gonna hurt someone else. Yes.

If you could be a little careful with how you tell a story. Yes. Then you could get the benefits of gossiping. Yes. Without.

Yes. Yes. And also, there was this fun study that I think tracked middle schoolers and that said that if someone is saying really negative gossip, which really only happens in middle school, I feel like when you grow up, you abandoned those friends pretty quickly. But if the next person in line, like, say someone was like, oh, my gosh, Jeremy's pants today look really stupid. And then the next person said, oh, I actually think the pants are cool.

That was like, the fizzle. Like, the gossip ended. You needed that second person to be like, oh, yeah, him and his stupid pants. And then it was like, wildfire. So you can be, like, the savior of the gossip.

If someone's just saying something mean, if you, like, punch it down, it's like, oh, not a good story. That's true. So that's what the steady fact. So you could be the savior of. The gossip, or you could not.

Emma Chamberlain
I believe in, like, I do believe, though, that for somebody who is like me, for example, who loves gossip like, I do, although I'm so, so protected about it. Like, I have, like, four people in my life, maybe five, that I gossip about to see. What's the best bit of gossip you've had recently? I, like, I am so good about, I'll share some gossip with you after. I'll come up with something, but it's like, I never share it on the Internet.

A lot of people go on their podcast and like, let's gossip. It's like, no, don't do that. That's, like, the worst thing you could do for society. Okay. So, you know, it's like a handful of people only when I know that it will never get back to the person.

Like, and that's fine. And then also, it's not all, but I have noticed that even though I'm somebody who's prone to gossip, enjoys gossip, loves gossip, believes in gossip, thinks it's crucial for society. I also know that you have to. It can be negative even for the person who loves it and who wants to discuss it. If it's.

If it's not done right, like, you. You don't want to be like, it can't be off other people's pain as well. Like, I don't think it has to be fair. Yeah, that. And that's like, it's like not a good side to the soul.

Wendy Zuckerman
No, I guess you're not really gonna feel great after just you gotta. Yeah, it has to be in good faith. Like you have to, like if you're gonna be shitting on someone, they have to have shit first. Like so it's like, you know what I'm saying? Like they need to have like done something genuinely bad.

Emma Chamberlain
Get me that on a t shirt. I know, that's okay. That's so easy. I'm gonna now if you guys make anybody out there merch companies, I'm gonna be making that. It'll be really expensive but I'll make sure just cuz yeah, I get ready.

Wendy Zuckerman
But yeah, I just remembered another fun fact from that episode which is that men gossip basically as much as women do. Whoa. Yeah, so they've done these studies where they like put microphones on people and then put switch them like on and off. This is why we love science. We can objectively measure this stuff.

Emma Chamberlain
Yes. At different times. And so they find that men do it too. Men do it too. And the definition of gossip is it's a very loose one.

Wendy Zuckerman
It's just talking about someone when they're not there. Yep. So it's not necessarily main. Yep. But men, women, we all do it.

Emma Chamberlain
I refuse to date a guy who will not gossip with me. Like I'm actually not kidding. That is a deal breaker. Like if there's cause if they gonna. Be annoying about it.

Like. No, I'm like, if I'm like, if I wanna be like, oh, like this, you know, this girl was like so rude to me today and she did this and blah, blah, blah. I refuse to go on a second date with a man who I don't really go on dates. It's not very Gen Z. But anyway, I refuse to like entertain somebody who will not be like, wait, what was she wearing?

Like I need a guy who they. Gotta have fun with it. No, I need a guy who will meet me there. And it's true, there are. It's not as stereotypically, it's a woman thing, but if you get, if you like allow everyone gossip.

Wendy Zuckerman
It's everyone. It's everyone. It's really not a girl thing. No, it's not. It's not.

I think. Yeah, I think maybe some of the studies show that like sometimes women do mean a gossip on it, but everyone's talking about everyone else. Otherwise what are you gonna talk about? Like actually. Wait, actually, what else is there to talk about?

Emma Chamberlain
No, I'm not kidding. What else is there? I think about that sometimes. Like, yeah, you can talk about art, you can talk about yourself, you can talk about music, you can talk about, you know, you can talk about philosophy, but when you. Okay, but that's, that's like, oh, okay, great.

There yet now you have an hour used up. What else is there? Now there's gossip. Yeah, sorry, that's when the gossip comes in. Okay, so that's great.

So now I know that you can. Feel good about it. Science approves of your, of your gossiping. Okay, so I can't vape, but I can have a glass of wine every once in a while and I can fucking gossip. Yeah.

So life is good. And you know what? And, and you can orgasm. I know. I was gonna say, and I can orgasm every fucking time.

I just, as long as. No, you just need. Oh my God. Not that. And I should say that there are other ways to enjoy sex and being with each other.

Wendy Zuckerman
You don't know. Not so much pressure on the orgasm. No, I'm sorry, but if they're doing. It, you could do it. No, I've as, like, you know, like, there's a phase, I think, in every young woman's life where it's like, damn, it's like, not happening.

Emma Chamberlain
Huh? Like, you're like, I will say like, it. Yeah, it took, it took mid twenties before I was even horny. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, it was.

Wendy Zuckerman
Which I actually, you know, coming on the show, I was like, oh, what is something that, like, that I think is an important message that, yeah, talk about enough. Yes, because there's so much pressure. Particularly in high school, maybe in college too, about like, oh, she's frigid. She's frigid. Oh, I was so frigid.

But, yeah. Were you frigid or were you just not horny? No, I wasn't, I wasn't. And also, I wasn't. I don't think I was.

Emma Chamberlain
It was not possible for me because you can't mentally get there unless you feel safe. But I remember, like, sitting around when I lived in a share house in Sydney with amazing three other women. And we were sitting around and I guess I would have been in my mid twenties then. And they were all talking about the first time they masturbated. And one of them was like, I never remember a time I didn't masturbate.

Whoa. They were like, I kind of remember rubbing up against stuff when I was three years old. Like, what? I didn't even think about it as masturbating. Another one said when I was 13, that's when I was, like.

Wendy Zuckerman
I was, like, going down in there and they turned to me and I was like, um. I haven't done it. I so get it. Because I didn't until. Okay, wait.

Emma Chamberlain
No, for me, I. I came from, like, my first orgasm was from a guy. Yeah. Like, doing it for me. Yeah.

Like, my first boyfriend. Yeah, me too. And I was like, what? Yeah. And I had never.

I didn't even know. It was crazy. Yeah, that's right. That's right. No one's, like, talking to you about it.

Wendy Zuckerman
No one's, like, giving you advice. And unlike with guys, it's not, like, right out there. So, like, an urge from within and I just, like, didn't happen. You don't know what you're missing. Yeah.

Until my mid twenties. And so, like, I really wish the conversation, instead of it being, like, frigid or whatever. Or whatever fucking words they're using to, like, judge women and girls who don't want to have sex. It's just like, do you want sex right now? You don't have to want sex right now.

Yes. You know, like, you're 13, you're 16, you're 19. Maybe you're just not horny and, like, absolutely nothing wrong with that. So, like, whatever happened when I was 25, I was, like, fucking awesome. I know.

Emma Chamberlain
I love that I'm so of that. It's. Cause it's not. It's not even good when you're younger anyway. It's not that.

Wendy Zuckerman
It's not. Okay, so, like, for example, it's always like, oh, like, have sex. Like, you know, you want to, like, have sex as soon as you can. This was like the belief when you're, you know, in high school or whatever. Yeah.

Right. Have sex now so that you can get good at it and then it. Whatever. But it's like you're. You're so.

Emma Chamberlain
You know, if you. That's just not how it works. If you're not feeling horny, you don't need to do anything. No. Yeah.

Oh, my God. I could talk to you all day. You have to come on again. I would love that. Please.

Because I'm not kidding. We could go down every. There's. We just scratched the service today. Yeah.

That was amazing. Thank you so much for having me. This is so much fun. The best ever. No, you actually have to come on again.

I would love that. Okay, great. Yeah. So that was me chatting with Emma Chamberlain for her podcast. Anything goes.

Wendy Zuckerman
I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, let us know. We're on Instagram science versus. I'm on TikTok endyzuckerman. Come say hello.

We'll be back next week with regular science verses. I'm Wendy Zuckerman. Back to you next time.

Wendy Talks About Her Pyromaniac Past - and More [Video]

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1. Introduction

2. Science vs. Misinformation

3. The Science of Everyday Phenomena

4. Concluding Thoughts

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