Trump Revives Birtherism

This episode tackles the resurgence of birtherism spearheaded by Donald Trump, focusing on his racially charged comments about Vice President Kamala Harris.

1. Trump's remarks about Harris's racial identity are a strategic move to energize his base by leveraging racial and identity politics.
2. The episode highlights the media's role in amplifying divisive rhetoric, urging journalistic responsibility.
3. There is a discussion on the potential harm of such rhetoric to the social fabric, especially among marginalized communities.
4. The hosts call for political and civic leaders to address and counteract misinformation and divisive tactics.
5. The episode underscores the importance of voter education and engagement to combat misinformation.

1: Introduction

Hosts introduce the episode's focus on Trump's revival of birtherism.
Jon Favreau: "We’re diving into a particularly contentious piece of political rhetoric today."

2: Trump's Interview Analysis

Analysis of Trump's interview at the National Association of Black Journalists.
Dan Pfeiffer: "It's a classic Trump move, revisiting birtherism, but this time targeting Kamala Harris."

3: Media's Role

Discussion on how media platforms can either counteract or contribute to the spread of misinformation.
Stacey Abrams: "Media outlets need to be careful not to become unwitting conduits for misinformation."

4: Political Strategy

Exploration of the political strategy behind racialized attacks in politics.
Dan Pfeiffer: "This is about stirring the pot to distract from real issues."

5: Conclusion

Reflections on the impact of such rhetoric on political discourse and society.
Stacey Abrams: "We must challenge these narratives to preserve our societal values."

1. Educate yourself on the issues and the backgrounds of political figures to counteract misinformation.
2. Engage in conversations with peers to spread awareness and promote critical thinking.
3. Support and promote responsible journalism that focuses on facts and context.
4. Participate in community and online forums to foster a more informed electorate.
5. Vote and encourage others to vote based on informed decisions and a thorough understanding of candidates' platforms.

Donald Trump doubles down on the racism and birtherism he unleashed onstage at the NABJ convention—repeating his attacks in social media posts and even a rally backdrop. Jon and Dan talk about what Trump's strategy might be, whether he's feeling buyer's remorse about JD Vance, and the latest on Kamala Harris's VP short list. Then, Project 2025 says it's winding down policy operations. Will it live on in Democrats' campaigns?

People

Donald Trump, Kamala Harris

Content Warnings:

None

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Stacey Abrams
Hi, I'm Stacey Abrams, host of the brand new crooked podcast assembly required with Stacey Abrams. Each week, we'll work together to better understand one of those big issues that seems insurmountable, whether it's the electoral college, America's loneliness epidemic, or the future of Hollywood post strikes. I'll challenge you to dig in and ask, how do we get here? What obstacles lie ahead, and what can we do to get good done? Are you in? Episodes of assembly required with Stacey Abrams are available starting August 15. Head to your favorite audio platform and subscribe now so you never miss an episode.

Welcome to pod save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

Dan Pfeiffer
I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

Stacey Abrams
On today's show with Kamala Harris VP announcement imminent. We'll read the tea leaves and talk through the shortlist. We'll also talk about how, as we suspected, Trump already seems to be regretting his vp pick, and reports of Project 2020 five's demise may be greatly exaggerated. But first, the fallout continues from one of the worst, most deranged interviews Donald Trump has ever given, which is saying a lot, his live appearance on Wednesday at the National association of Black Journalist Convention. So Lovett and Stacey Abrams reacted in real time on the Wednesday pod. But there have been some developments since then that have kept this story going, namely the fact that Trump and his campaign have decided to double down on his accusation that Kamala Harris isn't really black, and the vice president's response at an event that evening in Houston. Let's listen first as a refresher to Trump's comments, and then you'll hear what the VP said in response. Some of your own supporters, including Republicans on Capitol Hill, have labeled Vice President Kamala Harris, who is the first black and asian american woman to serve as vice president and be on a major party ticket, as a DeI hire. Is that acceptable language to you?

Donald Trump
How do you, how do you define Dei? Go ahead.

Dan Pfeiffer
How do you define diversity? Equity?

Stacey Abrams
Inclusion?

Donald Trump
Okay, yeah, go ahead. Is that what your definition, give me.

Stacey Abrams
That is, that is.

Donald Trump
Give me a definition then. Would you give me a definition?

Shopify
Of that.

Donald Trump
Give me a definition.

Stacey Abrams
Sir, I'm asking you a question. No, you have to define it.

Donald Trump
Define the. Define it for me if you want.

Stacey Abrams
I just defined it, sir.

Donald Trump
She was always of indian heritage, and she was only promoting indian heritage. I didn't know she was black until a number of years ago when she happened to turn black, and now she wants to be known as black. So I don't know. Is she indian or is she black?

Stacey Abrams
Donald Trump spoke at the annual meeting of the National association of black journalists.

And it was the same old show, the divisiveness and the disrespect.

And let me just say, the american people deserve better.

The american people deserve better.

All right, let's start with the man who's had a spiritual awakening since his assassination attempt. What the hell do you think Donald Trump was up to with that response and that whole interview? Like, the entire interview, he was just unhinged. Unhinged.

Dan Pfeiffer
I think I've now listened to this interview several times. I've listened to me, too.

Stacey Abrams
It's funny. Like, last night, I had watched it. Tommy had it on his computer when it was happening. And so I started. I tuned in. Cause I was so busy, I didn't even know it was happening. And then I went home last night just cause I was so stunned.

Not, like, surprising. Cause nothing about Donald Trump's surprising, but just shocking. And watched the whole thing again. And it was even worse the second time.

Dan Pfeiffer
I was traveling back home from a family trip, and I was in the airport, and I was, like, following the slacks coming in and the texts, and I was like, this seems bad with my family. My parents are like, how bad is it? I was like, I don't know what's happening, but it seems very bad.

And the. Well, let me just say that in listening to it, the true. The part that's not getting enough attention because it's. It might be the funniest part in what is largely an unfunny and highly offensive interview is when he keeps asking her to find Dei and she keeps looking.

Stacey Abrams
I was just gonna say that exact words.

Dan Pfeiffer
She's like, that is the literal definition.

Stacey Abrams
But it's obviously, he doesn't. He doesn't really get. He knows that there's a Dei attack that the right wing has been using and that it's like, it's, you know, it's racist and, you know, or it's a wedge issue that they can use. He, like, gets the politics around it, but he has no fucking idea what Dei is.

Dan Pfeiffer
I think he thinks it's a word, not an acronym, which is why he was so confused by her saying it. He thinks it's like, I would love to see him try, have to spell it.

I mean, let's start with why he was at the National association of Black Journalists to begin with. I can sort of see the meeting weeks ago, maybe months ago, in the Trump campaign headquarters where they decided to do this right there at the time they're running against Joe Biden. We know from all the interviews that Chris Lasavetti and Susie Wiles have done to tell us how smart they think they are, that black men are a huge target for the Trump campaign.

They go out so in their minds, like, we can go to the National association of Black Journals, talk to all of the black media in one fell swoop. And a republican president who's been repeatedly called a racist by Democrats showing up at NABJ would be a grand gesture to show that he's courting their vote, that he is actually, unlike most republican presidents in the past, he is actively seeking the votes of the black community.

Stacey Abrams
And they knew, too, that Joe Biden, at least in polling, was having trouble with younger black voters.

Dan Pfeiffer
It was highly unlikely to go do a NABj. So he would have the stage to himself.

Stacey Abrams
Yep.

Dan Pfeiffer
Now, that is one of the things that makes like, that's an idea in theory.

But if Chris Lasaven and Suzy Wells were as smart as they want us to think they are, they would have remembered their candidate is a racist asshole who also cannot and will not. He doesn't like tough questions, and he really doesn't like them from black women. And so this, even if we had not been in this place where he was clearly reeling from how the race has shifted and all the momentum that Kamala Harris has and seeing her fill arenas and the polls tightening and all of that, just in any scenario, even if he was, you know, still in his, like, coronation phase against Joe Biden, he still was going to have to answer these questions in front of, with very good journalists asking himself questions, and he was going to melt down there. Maybe not to this degree, but he was definitely going to melt out on that stage. It was a, one of those things. That's a good idea in theory, but theory fails to, to account for the fact that Donald Trump is the candidate.

Stacey Abrams
Yeah. And I also think right before he did the interview, he had some crazy post about, like, I thought we tried to do this on Zoom, and it's. And now Kamala Harris is not doing it on or gets to do it on Zoom, and now I have to be there in person.

I would not be surprised if when the race changed and he knew it was just him and Kamala and then he was like, oh, now I have to go to the National association of Black Journalists. He was already probably, he probably wanted to do it over Zoom and not actually go there. Then he goes there, and then I'm sure, because he's Donald Trump and he thinks he's fucking great. He thought that the first question was gonna be like, hey, you know, mister president, thank you for being here. And what's your plan on, you know, and the fact that the first question was so pointed about all of the, you know, you had a dinner with a white supremacist, you have, you know, said all these racist things. I think that when you challenge Trump like that, we've seen this with other interviewers, too, the few that actually really push and challenge him, that's when he loses his shit.

Dan Pfeiffer
It was the similar to that bret bear interview when he went through all the people in Trump's cabinet and team who had turned against him.

Right. And Trump melted down about that, too.

Stacey Abrams
Yeah. So some people are like, was it a strategy to say that it's possible, anything is possible with Donald Trump and his campaign. But having watched him for the last eight years, it just seems like when you challenge Donald Trump, when you corner Donald Trump, when he's already upset, he's going to say crazy shit, racist shit, sexist shit. It just comes out and, like, I don't. So that now what happened next, I think, is clearly strategic.

Dan Pfeiffer
Well, but in quotes.

Stacey Abrams
In quote.

Dan Pfeiffer
Right, but we can debate that. I don't want to ruin your day, but I want you to know it's just been nine years.

We've been podcasting Donald Trump for nine years.

Stacey Abrams
Yeah, we did something wrong in another life.

Dan Pfeiffer
Well, I guess we've been podcasting about for eight years, but we've been watching Donald Trump for nine years, just to be factually accurate.

Stacey Abrams
So after it happens, he doubles down and the campaign doubles down. At his rally that night in Harrisburg, the campaign projected an image of a Business Insider headline that noted how Harris became California's first indian american senator, which is true. Trump also posted a video clip of Kamala cooking indian food with Mindy Kaling and said, quote, crazy. Kamala is saying she's indian, not black. Stone cold phony. She uses everybody, including her racial identity.

Why does he and the campaign think that this is, like, a winner for them? Why are they. What's, what's, what do you think is the only thing I can think of on the doubling down is like, one of the first principles for Donald Trump and all the people around him is never apologize, never back down. Just lean into any kind of gaffe or controversial statement you make.

Dan Pfeiffer
I think there is some of that, for sure. It's like, what did Lovett used to call them? Intellectual zambonis who would go around behind Trump and clean up the mess. I think these are, like, strategic zambonis here. I think that there is a strategy that is a very tried and true, very misogynistic strategy often used against female candidates and female candidates of color, which is to paint them as overly ambitious, do anything for power. And so what I think, take away the way Donald Trump did this, like, his execution of their plan was horrendous and offensive and counterproductive and probably and hurt him in ways that we can talk about. I think the campaign's message is they're trying. They're racing to define Kamala Harris, and they want to do this argument where she said she was black when it helped her with. In this way. She said she was indie when it helped her in this way as a way to make her seem unprincipled, phony. This is, you know, we've seen this strategy run against candidates, especially women candidates, all the time from Republicans. Trump just did it in a way that was, like, such an unsubtle sledgehammer that it kind of blew up in his face.

Stacey Abrams
Can I just point out why it's so fucking stupid and, like, where it's coming from, that's not only in Donald Trump's mind, but, like, a broader feeling on the right with some of this dei bullshit. It's like. Like, first of all, Kamala Harris, her mother came here from India. Her father came here from Jamaica. She has talked about that for her entire career. She has written about it in her book. She's given speeches about it. When she became the vice president, all of the stories everywhere said that she was the first black and south asian woman to be vice president. A lot of firsts. There was a whole millions of headlines about that. So the idea that it was hidden or she tries to. She turned black is just nonsense, right?

Dan Pfeiffer
She went to historically.

Stacey Abrams
She went to Howard.

Dan Pfeiffer
Yes. She joined a historically black sorority. Yes.

Stacey Abrams
But they are trying to argue that somehow being black or presenting as black is an advantage, as a political advantage in some places, because everyone knows that black Americans, they have all this privilege and advantage historically.

And that sometimes saying that you have indian heritage, gives you some advantage politically, which is just. It's so fucking preposterous. But it's exactly how the right thinks now, which is like, oh, well, if you're white, you have to. You have to work hard and get ahead. But if you're black or if you're some other minority, then the way that society is now and Dei and everything else, then you get an advantage that other people don't get. That's what he's. That's the real racist part of it, and that's what he was really getting at.

Dan Pfeiffer
It is a, without using the acronym slash word, it's a way of making. Of arguing she's a DEi candidate. She could never have succeeded in this way on her own, because it is impossible for these Republicans to fathom the idea that a woman or a black woman or indian woman could best them in all these ways to. To achieve what she has achieved, to win the election she's won, to advance in the career. That's. They can't comprehend that.

They get to this also because they live like Kamala Harris's story. Her. The fact that she's black and indian is also an anathema to their view of America. Right? Like, what Trump is really arguing that he is a bulwark against changes in this country that mean that white men are going to have less powers. We become a more diverse country. And so the idea of Kamala Harris is that as Barack Obama, in the same way, was something they could not comprehend, they could not wrap their mind around. And so they must lash out at it in the most offensive way as possible, like, it does. It does not compute in their mind that she could have achieved everything she achieved based on her hard work, her talented, her brains, her grit, all of that. Like, that does not. That is not in their way, in their worldview. It is not possible for them.

Stacey Abrams
Kamala Harris, who has won more elections than Donald Trump and JD Vance combined, who has more political experience in years than Donald Trump and JD Vance combined, who won the race for attorney general, a close race for attorney general, particularly the primary in the largest state in the country, who won a race for US Senate in the largest state in the country, the fifth largest economy in the world, and then who went on to run for president and get selected as vice president and then just spent four years working with Joe Biden in the White House. That is the DEI candidate that they are denigrating there.

Dan Pfeiffer
Just the other thing. I was on the Bulwark podcast today with Tim Miller and something he pointed out that had not occurred to me. JD Vance's kids.

Stacey Abrams
I know, which I don't even. I didn't even want to mention. Cause it's like, they're his kids, but like, oh my God.

Dan Pfeiffer
I didn't want to bring him up either, but he got asked about it and just basically stuck with Trump instead of pushing back anyway. Superfluous. Even separating himself in the most mild way to acknowledge the complexity of american life.

Stacey Abrams
Also, Donald Trump.

Donald Trump's daddy gave him a bunch of money and then he swindled his way to his fortune. That's. That's how Donald Trump got where he is. That's Donald Trump's advantage.

Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, his, his dia is just being a, being a rich vil son.

Stacey Abrams
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So what did you make of Kamala Harris response? I loved it. But what I loved, I want to.

Dan Pfeiffer
Hear why I loved it as well, but I want to hear why you loved it.

Stacey Abrams
Okay. So I had a couple people say to me, you know, Trump doing this and everyone calling him racist and him taking over the news cycle with this, it's giving me 2016 vibes where we were all like, oh, Trump every day was saying something sexist about Hillary, or then he was saying something racist about someone else. And suddenly that became the campaign. And we all thought, oh, of course he's gonna lose and then he wins. Right? And I do think that not just the Clinton campaign, but the whole Democratic Party has sort of learned over the last several years that he wants us to take the bait. Right? He wants, he was desperate for the Harris campaign and Democrats to be like, you're a racist. Let's. And then he's. I didn't say anything racist. I said that she's just trying to prove that she's not really black. You know, like, and they want that. And the fact that Kamala Harris stood up there and said it was disrespectful, like he always is, and it's divisive, which he always is. But same old story, same old act. We're all tired of it. We've been hearing it for nine years. There's nothing new. It's complete bullshit. This is why we need to move forward. This is why we need to turn the page. It is the strongest argument, and it prevents her from getting sucked in. And it's also not ignoring it altogether because I'm sure some people are like, oh, she should ignore it. You can't ignore it. But I think lifting it up and making it about, it's not a fight between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump.

He wants it to be a personal fight between the two of them. What she needs to do is every time he does this, talk about, like, this is a race about the people of this country and living in an inclusive, diverse country where every single person has the chance to get ahead, that's what this race is about. He doesn't want it to be about that. He wants to be about, like, lobbing insults at me and everyone else because that's who he is. We're so tired of that. Let's move on.

Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. I thought what I loved about it was she seemed overjoyed to take it on. Like, she almost laughed in that clip right before she started. Cause she's. She was ready for it. It was. You're right. It wasn't in anger. It wasn't about her. It was about taking it back on Donald Trump and then fitting it back in her frame. And I love when she said same old stuff. Right? We've seen it. It's the past. We're focused on the future. We don't. And there is something. And, and this is like, this is what I have loved about their campaign to date, is they take everything as an opportunity to push their frame, right? They're not like they're fighting the war. Not, not the individual battles. And because there was just something inherently old in past about not understanding people's complex identities in 2024. It is an old man thing. Right? It is an old, out of touch, 78 year old rich guy who lives in Palm beach who doesn't get it because, you know, tens of millions of Americans identify as biracial right? Everyone knows someone in their family, their friends, who. It's a, you know, white mom, black dad, you know, everything, right? And how, and how people talk about it and think about it and, you know, and this is, we dealt with this with Obama, too. Right? This was the whole thing. Obama's not black enough. All those things. And people got it. You never had to be explained. Cause they understood because they see it in their lives. And Donald Trump just looks like a, like an old fart. He doesn't get it.

And that. That's what you want, right? This is, that is how this race has fundamentally shifted in the last two weeks, is it is. We have gone from present versus near, past to future versus past. Trump is the past.

Stacey Abrams
An old fart and an old fart who's fucking scared.

Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah.

Stacey Abrams
Like, he looked and sounded weak doing that. Like, I know his whole thing. And the whole race against Joe Biden was strength and Joe Biden's weak. But Donald Trump latching out like that makes him seem small and weak. It did not come from a position of strength.

Dan Pfeiffer
No.

Stacey Abrams
So, of course, JD Vance joined in the stupidity in Arizona on Wednesday night. He called Harris a, quote, phony in his remarks, and later added that she has a, quote, fundamental, chameleon like nature that she is, quote, not who she pretends to be. And he also accused her of faking a southern accent in her Atlanta rally after his event. Then he went back to defending his comments that not having children makes you, quote, sociopathic. When reporters asked him, Vance said, quote, I'm happy to defend what I said because what I said is true. In a clip that the Harris campaign immediately circulated. Good for them. So we've been wondering when Trump is going to get tired of the JD Vance routine. It seems like the time might be now. He was asked about Vance at the Nabj event. This didn't get, obviously, as much attention for good reason. But here's what he said when he was asked about JD Vance.

Dan Pfeiffer
When you look at JD Vance, is he ready on day one?

Donald Trump
Does he what?

Dan Pfeiffer
Ready on day one if he has to be.

Donald Trump
I've always had great respect for him and for the other candidates, too. But I will say this, and I think this is well documented historically, the vice president, in terms of the election, does not have any impact. I mean, virtually no impact.

Stacey Abrams
We knew it.

Honestly, I thought it would come as a leak first, or I thought that maybe Trump would try to dress it up a little more, but he basically stuck two daggers in. He was asked, is he ready on day one. And his response is, is he ready to be president day one. And his response is, the VP doesn't.

Dan Pfeiffer
Matter because you can always. We've now been watching this sad, sad man in the public sphere for so long. You also know this is the conversation he's been having with a bunch of rich palm beach donor types who are asking whether he fucked up the JD Vance pick. And his answer is, he can't defend it because there's no upside there at all. But he would just say, does it matter? And he's like, historically, it doesn't matter. It's not exactly true, but kind of true also, just the way he mentioned that he liked the other people, too. And he did say another, like, little. I mean, I could.

Stacey Abrams
That got me nervous that I'm like, oh, no, he's gonna drop him.

Dan Pfeiffer
I think there's a chance he could. But I also love that he said he always had great respect for him.

Stacey Abrams
Yeah.

Dan Pfeiffer
And also, you know, for truth.

Stacey Abrams
Meaning, like, until I didn't know any of this shit was gonna happen, that's basically what he was trying to do.

Dan Pfeiffer
I mean, Don Junior had his one moment in the sun where his dad pretended like he loved him on stage at the convention, and now. Now he is fucked. He has fallen so far below Eric, he might be below Tiffany now in the family inheritance.

Stacey Abrams
How long does Donald Trump have to do something about JD Vince if he wanted to drop him from the ticket? Don't they have to print ballots somewhat soon in some states?

Dan Pfeiffer
Soon ish? I don't think we're at ballot printing yet, but we're getting pretty close because we're not that far away from early votes starting in a handful of states. So you could. I mean, you can still do the switch after the ballot printing, but you'd much prefer not to. That's actually a really good question for an attorney, which we know some. We could ask because I know what happened, how tricky it is if the top of the ticket person is, but I don't know what would happen if it's the wrong person on the ballot on the bottom. Like, if it is, all of a sudden it was Trump Bergam, what that would do. But, yeah, but basically, I think he would have, like, maybe a week at most to probably do this.

Stacey Abrams
I also can't imagine it being Bergam as a replacement because it's like, we're going to drop JD Vance, but don't you worry, everyone. We got Doug Bergam. Yeah, I mean, I don't know anyone who would be excited for people, but even Rubio, I guess, would be better at that point. I don't know. You know, there's a conversation happening somewhere in Mar a Lago or in the Trump campaign, somewhere where they're whispering about, like, well, he could ditch JD Vance, maybe during the democratic convention, step on her speech, do something like that. Get a. Get a. Get a press hit, or maybe do it the day after, like they're thinking about it.

Dan Pfeiffer
I guess August 7 would be the.

Probably the deadline because.

Stacey Abrams
Right. Because that was the Ohio.

Dan Pfeiffer
Ohio ballot, and Trump, like Kamala Harris, could become president without Ohio. Donald Trump cannot. So, yeah, August 7, you'd have to the switch, and then the RNC would have some process by which they just rubber stamped whoever the replacement.

Stacey Abrams
The new. The new. Yeah. There was also reporting in the bulwark that everyone on the Trump team thinks that Kellyanne Conway, who is in favor of Rubio for the VP pick, is leaking internal doubts about Vance.

She didn't exactly deny it to Marco Caputo at the bulwark.

What do you think is going on there? Is that just internal sniping where the campaign's pissed at Kellyanne and Kellyanne is sniping back or what's going on there?

Dan Pfeiffer
I mean, who knows with these people? I think one thing that's pretty clear from seeing Kellyanne over all these years is she really wants people to think she's right.

Stacey Abrams
Right. And in the know, she was, the piece said that she bristled at the suggestion that she's not still advising Donald Trump. And she's like, I advise him all the time.

Dan Pfeiffer
I mean, yes, that is very clear that she. That in any conversation she has, she must put herself in the center of all big decisions in Trump land. And so you can just see a world where she's telling people that she was in the room pushing for Rubio or whoever else. And so she's not responsible for this numb school who keeps saying crazy shit.

So, yeah, and this is also. It's another sign that wheels are coming off, because that's. This was like a flashback to 2017 and 2021 Axio stories about various people knifing each other in Trump world. Like, there's been none of that throughout this campaign for all. Like, we've joked about the famously disciplined Trump campaign. But one way where they have been more coherent is that there is less. There's less of that internal drama spilling out into the pages of Politico and Axios. And this is kind of the bulwark in this case. And this is the first time that's happening. So that's also a sign that they are all, they are on their heels since Kamala Harris became the presumptive democratic nominee.

Stacey Abrams
And of course, time is a flat circle. So all of the Trump campaign internal sniping stories are coming back one more time.

Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. Because those stories always come. If history says anything, 14 to 21 days after the Trump is a change man stories. So we're right. We're right on schedule here.

Stacey Abrams
Yeah, we are. We are. All right. Lastly, before we move off of this horror show of an interview forever, Rachel Scott also asked Trump whether he can legitimately claim to be the candidate of law and order when he wants to pardon the January 6 rioters. Here's what he said. My impression is on those rioters who assaulted officers. Would you pardon what's going to happen?

Donald Trump
Oh, absolutely, I would.

Stacey Abrams
You would pardon those?

Donald Trump
If they're innocent? I would pardon them.

Dan Pfeiffer
They've been convicted.

Donald Trump
And by the way, the Supreme Court.

Stacey Abrams
Just under, he would pardon people who have been convicted of physically assaulting police officers, in some cases giving them injuries that they are still recovering from right now. And we didn't play it in the clip, but afterwards when she says, well, they've been convicted, he's like, yeah, but this system, you know, this unfair system. So, again, convictions only count in Trump's mind when they are convictions against people he does not like. When they are convictions against people that support him or the people that he likes, they do not matter. That is the, that is the guy who wants to be the chief law enforcement officer in this country and execute our laws.

Dan Pfeiffer
Cool stuff.

Stacey Abrams
I mean, it is, that's gonna be the worst politics. Like, I mean, I just, like, I know, I could see in the last couple months, there were a few quotes here and there from people in the Trump orbit that they were like, maybe trying to walk back the pardon thing by saying, well, he wants to, he wouldn't pardon the rioters who've been convicted of physical assault. It's the ones who've been convicted of, like, trespassing or just been sitting in jail and all they did was just walk into the Capitol. Right. Like he, right. Just physically assaulting police officers. Sure. Pardoned. I mean, that to me is an ad. That's an ad right there.

Dan Pfeiffer
A hundred percent it is. And even the, like, you're really dancing ahead of a pin if you're trying to separate the people who, who were the two, the actual violence on people who went into the Capitol because we've seen in polling, look, there are lots majorities of Republicans believe that the election was stolen. Many of them believe that Trump did nothing wrong on January 6. They, they have better feelings about, uh, they feel some of the convictions were wrong, the system's broken, but they really do not like the people who actually went into the Capitol. And even a lot of Republicans do not think they should be pardoned. And so Trump is, he. You're right, he has zoned in on. There's no more, there's no less popular way to talk about this. And Trump has decided than Trump is doing it like he is. It is. He's just, it's bizarre almost. It's, it. There is, has always been, like, this self destructive impulse in him, and it is coming out in his, in full flower right now.

Stacey Abrams
God, this is why I want the debate so badly, because, can you imagine?

Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, I know.

Stacey Abrams
And again, the last debate, it probably would have happened. He would have been self destructive had Biden not had the night that he had.

But he wasn't challenged. And I think if he's challenged at a debate, which I'm sure Kamala Harris would do, and I'm sure the moderators would do as well, who knows? Who knows what we'll see. Speaking of political liabilities, Project 2025 is, quote, winding down its policy operations, according to the Washington Post. And the guy who was running it stepped down. This was also a fun reminder that Project 2025 isn't just a document full of terrible and unpopular ideas. It was also a staffing operation run out of the Heritage foundation to act specifically as an administration in waiting for Donald Trump. And it was filled with over 200 people who worked in the last Trump administration, including some very senior advisors and a handful of cabinet secretaries. Anyway, the Trump campaign released a statement saying, quote, reports of Project 2020 five's demise would be greatly welcomed and should serve as notice to anyone or any group trying to misrepresent their influence with President Trump and his campaign. It will not end well for you. Okay. Not everyone's so happy about this. On the right, Molly Hemingway, the editor in chief of the Federalists, tweeted, Trump world bows down to left wing media lies and keeps signaling he doesn't want his most loyal foot soldiers who kept with him even when very few others did, or their conservative ideas in his next administration. Interesting.

Thank you. Molly Hemingway.

What do you think has really been going on behind the scenes between project 2025 and the Trump people?

Dan Pfeiffer
I think the Trump people really wanted the Project 2025 people to shut the hell up. Right? Like, there was no need. They did this all publicly. As a way to raise, to raise money for the Heritage foundation and raise the relevance of the Heritage Foundation, a group that had fought, that was very dominant for a long time, public politics, and sort of fell out of favor for a long time.

And, like, they want all the work. They want the lists, they want the ideas. They just don't want the bad press. And this is something that had been getting a ton of attention. Democrats were utilizing it very well, and so they wanted people to shut up. Now, it's important to note that Donald Trump is the official nominee of the Republican Party.

Next, in a couple weeks, Kamala Harris will be the official nominee of the Democratic Party. And what that will mean is that the federally funded transition operations will begin so they don't need Project 2025 in two weeks to staff the government. With all these apparatchiks. Like, they can do it. They're gonna, taxpayer dollars will be helping them do it by Labor Day.

Stacey Abrams
It's interesting, when you said that, I thought, oh, now we're gonna know, like, the transition's gonna get staffed with people who were part of Project 2025. Like, that is inevitable.

Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. Yeah. It won't be the people who are the head of it, obviously.

Stacey Abrams
No, because they don't, they want to be careful. But, like, it's going to, it's going to become obvious pretty soon that, of course, the Trump campaign embraces both the people and the ideas of Project 2025.

Dan Pfeiffer
Obviously, of course they're going to do it. There's not even a question in my mind. There is no question in my mind that were Trump to win the White House, Project 2025 will be their 100 day, their 200 day, their 300 day, their first term plan. Right. That that is, that is what they're going to do. And the people on that list are going to be working in that government. Because do you think the Trump people are out there just really combing through LinkedIn looking for undersecretaries of natural resources? Of course not.

Stacey Abrams
There's no one. There's no one left. They had, like, dozens of senior advisors and national security people and cabinet secretaries who've said that Trump is dangerous and a threat and would never work for him again. A whole bunch of other people who probably have legal bills from the last Trump administration. Like, they don't have a lot of choices. So, of course, that's how they're going to staff their government. And the idea that, because, you know, we talk about sort of the democratic strategy moving forward on Project 2025, the idea that Donald Trump is somehow separate from these ideas or doesn't embrace most of these ideas, like, he's already come out for eliminating the Department of Education, rolling back all of Joe Biden's environmental regulations, getting rid of most of the non political appointees in the federal government to replace them with MAGA loyalists. He included Medicare and Social Security cuts in every single budget he proposed every year. He was president of this stuff. He's already agreed to, you know, and so I, it's, I don't know. Is there anything else that you think Democrats should do going forward on this?

Dan Pfeiffer
I think we never stop talking about it. We keep pushing. We do not, we do not take no for an answer here. Right. This is their agenda.

Stacey Abrams
I would start joking, too, about Donald Trump saying things like, I know nothing about Project 2025. I think some of the points are fine. Some of them I disagree with. I've never read the document. I think some of the points are good. I have no idea who's behind it. More than 200 people who used to work for me run it. Like, I just, there's sort of a, there's a mocking there that I think is important because some, some people will think, oh, well, he's disavowed Project 2025. He says he has nothing to do with it. And I think it's important to, like, remind people that he's full of shit.

Dan Pfeiffer
There was plenty of great mainstream press coverage of Project 2025. Like, the press did a very good job of it.

Stacey Abrams
Really good job.

Dan Pfeiffer
But the reason why it broke through was people took it online and started creating their own content about it. It really was like, we are now living in a, you know, brat summer, coconut pilled abundance of pro Kamala, anti Trump media. But the one success we had prior to the changing candidacy was a lot of people made some great videos and content about Project 2025. That really scared the shit of a lot of people, and they got, and they got shared. And so you can do, continue. We should continue to do that. There's, I mean, these are, you know, cheesecake Factory menus, lists of bad policies that we can continue to do and people should keep doing and pushing it out there, because then you're, if you're trying to litigate this in the free press, like, what the Trump people accomplished here is getting the, you know, you can see the debate where the moderator says to Kamala Harris, but the Trump campaign. But the project has ended, right? Or in a press conference or an interview that she is doing. Not an interview here, an interview with more credulous mainstream media, but but on social media, you continue to educate people about it because you were in, you are, you were in the correct, you were in the right. If you are pushing this out there and explain to people what it is, because that is a Trump agenda, whether they disavowed this staffing plan or not.

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Stacey Abrams
Feeling overwhelmed by the relentless news cycle? Want to discuss important issues with fellow political junkies? Look no further than crooked's friend of the pod discord. Its like group therapy for people who binge on breaking news instead of Netflix. Look, we get it. As this summers political and legal roller coaster continues, well need to take advantage of every self care hack we can think of. Thats why friends of the pod will be hosting live chats for subscribers during the upcoming DNC and RNC, where subscribers can share opinions, laugh, cry, react with emojis in real time, and support each other through the chaos. Much better than breathing into a paper bag in front of your screens in our opinion. So join now. You won't regret it. Unless you hate fun. Subscribe to the friends of the pod community only@cricket.com friends, we will see you there.

Alright, we are down to the final few days until VP Harris selects a vp of her own. As a reminder, the reporting is that she's going to do a rally on Tuesday, introducing her running mate. That rally is in Philadelphia, stoking a lot of speculation that the pick would be Pennsylvania governor Josh Shapiro. The campaign said not to read too much into the location, but then today, NBC News reported that Shapiro had canceled some fundraisers that were scheduled for this weekend, and Shapiro's folks confirmed that. They also reported that Shapiro met with Harris's vetting team on Wednesday. Harris wasn't there, apparently, but reportedly the vetting team had very similar meetings with Arizona Senator Mark Kelly, Minnesota Governor Tim Walz, Illinois governor JB Pritzker, Kentucky Governor Andy Bashir, and transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg. How much do you read into all the signs that are pointing towards Shapiro?

Dan Pfeiffer
Do not read anything into the science.

There are no clues. I think it's helpful for you and I to explain how this worked when Barack Obama picked Joe Biden.

Stacey Abrams
Yeah.

Dan Pfeiffer
We were in the know. We were senior ish staffers on that campaign.

Up until hours before the announcement, your team was writing three different speeches.

Right? You wrote a speech for Joe Biden.

Stacey Abrams
Well, I'll tell you what happened.

Yes. We were supposed to write all three speeches. I wrote the Joe Biden speech.

Cause I was. I was getting. I was getting vibes that it might be Joe Biden. And then someone else wrote the Evan by speech and someone else wrote the Tim Kaine speech. And I think that I edited the Tim Kaine speech. I don't even think I looked at the oven by speech.

I was like, he's not picking Evan by.

So I, like, had a sense that it was Joe Biden. But you're right. That was all I knew. And we had to do three speeches.

Dan Pfeiffer
Right? We had three communications plans. There were three sets of signs that were made.

Stacey Abrams
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dan Pfeiffer
And so this idea that because it's the most closely held secret in the entire campaign, I'm sure the campaign wants to tell their supporters before anyone else knows. So the idea that the advanced team knows it's Josh Shapiro. So they booked a rally in Pennsylvania. Is. That is not it. The reason the rally is in Pennsylvania is because Pennsylvania is the most important state for Kamala Harris and Donald Trump.

Stacey Abrams
To get to 70, and it's the closest to Washington, DC and Wilmington, where the campaign is. And so if you're doing a battleground state tour, it makes sense, just logistically, to start and to start in Philly.

Dan Pfeiffer
That's so funny you say that. It had not occurred to me until now that the campaign is still in Wilmington, Delaware, even though Kamala Harris is from Oakland, which is so.

Stacey Abrams
I know.

Dan Pfeiffer
I mean, look, I love my home.

Stacey Abrams
City, but it's just, I think it's. I've heard that it's split. Like, there's some people who are working out of DC and there's some people who are still working out of Wilmington.

Dan Pfeiffer
So we'll see.

And the idea, this idea, Josh Shapiro may be canceling his fundraisers because he's probably been told, as have the other finalists, to keep their weekends open for some sort of secret meeting with Kamala Harris. They're not going to. She's not going to pick.

Stacey Abrams
That was my thought on that one.

Dan Pfeiffer
And this there, the other thing you mentioned about the fundraiser, about donors or campaign fundraisers telling people that they should give now because there are certain laws about people who do business with the state giving for governors, the fundraisers also don't know. Right? No one knows.

Stacey Abrams
No one would tell a fucking fundraiser.

Dan Pfeiffer
If the fund. Look, here's the thing. If the fundraiser knows, you know, right?

Stacey Abrams
Yeah.

The fundraiser knows. Failure, you have failed.

Dan Pfeiffer
And so I don't know that. She probably has not made her decision yet. She apparently hasn't met with the finalists yet. The. She probably has an idea of who she was thinking. Like, Obama clearly was very much leaning towards Joe Biden when he. I think when he did those final meetings with the folks. But it's probably Kamala Harris, Jedi Malley, Dylan, one or two other people over close on our closest team who have any sense of where her head is on this. And so all the clues are fake. It's all just noise.

Stacey Abrams
So some lefty groups like the democratic socialists of America and the uncommitted movement are making it known that they would not be happy with Shapiro on the ticket, mainly because they think the jewish governor is too pro Israel, even though he's called Netanyahu one of the worst leaders of all time and notably has taken positions on Gaza that are no different than any of the other VPN contenders. What do you think about that?

Dan Pfeiffer
I think it makes me deeply uncomfortable that you would have that position specifically for governor. Shapiro.

Stacey Abrams
Yeah. Who's the only one who's jewish.

Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. And even beyond that, just for people's understanding, what matters here is Kamala Harris's position.

And just to give you an example from our life, Barack Obama's signature issue was his opposition to the Iraq war. Joe Biden voted for the Iraq war. It was a longtime defender of the Iraq war and became Barack Obama's running mate and became then an advocate for Barack Obama's position for ending the Iraq war. Right. That, like that. His position for he to be the VP nominee will be what her position is. And so if you're comfortable with her position, and you may not be right, you may want to push her to change or whatever it else, but her position is a dominant position here on this issue and every other issue.

Stacey Abrams
And guess what? Kamala Harris, who's now getting attacked for positions she took in 2019 and 2020 in that primary, all of her positions are changed now because they were changed when she got to the White House, because her positions were Joe Biden's positions. Yeah, that's what. Just what you said. That's what happens with the VP. And Josh Shapiro serves in this White House. His positions are going to be Kamala Harris's positions. Aside from that, the reason that Josh Shapiro keeps getting mentioned, and he keeps popping up at the top of the list is like, the guy has a 60% approval rating in Pennsylvania. He has won elections there by a good deal. He outran John Fetterman in 2022. Now, of course, he was running against Doug Mastriano, who is somehow even a worse candidate than Doctor Oz, but he is wildly popular in Pennsylvania. And there was a fox poll, I believe, last week that tested, what if it was Shapiro versus Trump in Pennsylvania and it had him winning by ten points? And I haven't seen any polling yet that tests, how would Harris Shapiro fare against Trump Vance in Pennsylvania? And, like, would it make a difference on the tickets? I haven't seen that polling yet, but if it, if it helps a few points and everything else checks out well with Josh Shapiro. And Pennsylvania is the tipping point state in this election, the most important state to win. You could see why she would want to go for Josh Shapiro.

Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, I mean, there, the polling is a little like, hypothetical polling is always a little sketchy. I have seen polling that asks people, would you, Pennsylvania voters, would you be more or less likely to vote for Kamala Harris if Josh Shapiro was on the ticket? I've seen similar question for Mark Kelly in Arizona. A lot of Pennsylvanians are more likely. Most of them will say it makes a difference. A majority will say it makes a difference. Some of them will say more, and some, and a tiny percentage will say yes. So, yeah, we'll say it makes them less likely to vote. But the problem with that polling is you, the sample sizes aren't good enough to know are the people who are saying more likely people who are voting for Kamala Harris anyway.

Right. So you don't really know whether it's Josh Shapiro or Mark Kelly in Arizona.

History shows in the end, with all of these things, there's a very small sample size issue. But generally in the past, one to two points is what you can expect from. It's the home state. It's considered the home state advantage that has gone down in recent years as american policies have gotten more national, more polarized and more nationalized. But over the past, the home state advantage is greatly overstated. But Pennsylvania is probably going to be decided by two points.

Stacey Abrams
So when was the last time there was a vp on the ticket who was from a very competitive state?

Dan Pfeiffer
That Paul Ryan in Wisconsin?

Stacey Abrams
No, I was gonna say who was a statewide official. Right. Because Paul Ryan in Wisconsin, it's like he had a district there. And I'm sure people in Wisconsin know him, but he didn't. He wasn't a statewide official in Wisconsin, was it? Gore in Tennessee?

Although Tennessee back in what, in 1992, that wasn't like a make or break state, was it?

Dan Pfeiffer
Clinton won it easily in 92 and 96, but Gore obviously famously lost it in 2000. So in some cases, the home state advantage doesn't work.

I think Paul Ryan is, it's the closest approximation because he's not a random congressman. He was a national figure with name id, sort of akin to a statewide elected official. But it's been a long time. But the way they measure this generally is not in a battleground. It doesn't have to be a battleground state.

How did the state perform compared to how the, how the, how the cans performed nationally, right. Because of baseline. And so, you know, it's like Biden did, you know, Obama did a point or two better in Delaware than he otherwise would have done based on. But it's, it's, it's all very hard to disentangle what it means. So I think the thing is, it's not, it is, does not, picking Shapiro does not guarantee Pennsylvania. It may help. It may. And as you say, the same thing about Mark Kelly in Arizona. It may help. But if it does help, it's only going to help a little.

Stacey Abrams
Right? I think that's right. And so I think at the end of the day, if you're Kamala Harris, you want someone, first of all, you want someone who can govern, right? Like a lot of these candidates, and Barack Obama thought this, too, which is like, I want to pick someone who, if something happens to me, then like, I feel they are ready on day one, like Trump could not say about JD Vance. And then you want someone that you like, vibe with on the campaign trail, someone that you know, someone that you trust. Right. And so we can make all the political calculations. And I'm sure the Harris campaign is doing that as well. But she's got to feel comfortable with this person. And so what do you think about sort of the other contenders? I think, like you said, Kelly would potentially help with Arizona a little bit, which is a key state, not as key as Pennsylvania, not as many electoral votes. And she's probably behind there by more than she is in Pennsylvania. So that's something to consider. And then you've got Tim Walls, who it would be someone that you'd pick because he makes a great argument, he's great on tv. And, you know, could go to some of those midwestern states and probably do well campaigning, I think Pete Buttigieg, excellent communicator, one of the best messengers in the party also says nothing says future than Harris and Pete on the ticket together. So what do you think about some of the other possibilities?

Dan Pfeiffer
I actually think they're all great.

Stacey Abrams
Yeah, they really are. I actually would not be disappointed.

Dan Pfeiffer
There's not a bad choice in the group.

Stacey Abrams
Yeah.

Dan Pfeiffer
I didn't have strong feelings about Tim Walls, but then I listened to the interview with Lovett and he was awesome. And it did remind me that this will also date myself back in 2006. Campaign ads didn't go viral back then. Cause no way for them to go viral. But Tim Walls had an introductory ad that was based on his time as a football coach for his congressional run, 2006. That it was one that everyone in town talked about, thought was like the best out of the cycle, which I looked for for at least seven minutes on YouTube and I could not find. But Tim Wallace, he has got a great story. He's a great candidate. The Internet has fallen in love with Tim Wallace.

There's a lot of Tim walls on TikTok these days.

I mean, Kelly obviously has gravitas, military experience. Astronaut Gabby Giffords, I think provides some ideological moderation and how people. He's sort of seen as a moderate, tough on the board, borders.

Stacey Abrams
He's definitely like on paper, like the most impressive resume. Right. But then the question is, you know, we've seen a bunch of people who are on paper really good. It doesn't pan out. But on paper, I think you're right. Like an astronaut who was in the military and, I mean, let's. Yeah. Border state.

Dan Pfeiffer
He's had two tough rates, two really tough races, two high profile sub races. Shapiro has not had a tough race.

Stacey Abrams
Right. That's because Doug Mastrano, kook. Yeah.

His attorney General Reese's, which was statewide, but. But it's not. He hasn't had a lot of money spent against him, so we don't.

Dan Pfeiffer
Kelly's been in the crucible and so you can have some that gives you, like, there. It's hard to compare a Senate race to a presidential race, but at least you've seen he's had some things. The other thing is, it's Susan. I talked about the Susan rice when I talked to her for last week's pod is all that stuff is interesting. But the president, the vice president have lunch together once a week.

And so you really do have to, like, think about this. If you have to pick someone, like, imagine you're hiring someone for your company and they're like, I am going to have to have lunch with this person. Once a week for the next 48 years. You really got to like the person for that. You really got to think it's going to be an interesting, useful conversation.

Stacey Abrams
Honestly. Honestly. That's why I hired Lovett to be the speechwriter in the White House, because I was like, the interviews, there's a lot of good candidates, a lot of good speeches. But at the end of the day, I was sitting there at Starbucks and he's making me laugh and I'm like, I think I could hang out with.

Dan Pfeiffer
This guy 15 years later.

Stacey Abrams
Yeah, boy.

Dan Pfeiffer
Still eat lunch together.

Stacey Abrams
If only I could go back.

Just kidding. Just kidding. Love it. Yeah. No, I agree. And also, she knows Josh Shapiro because they were ags together. The same class of AG's and same thing with Bashir. We haven't talked about Bashir, but Andy Bashir is also that class of attorneys general.

So some of these personal relationships probably matter as well.

Well, we'll see, we'll see. We'll see if it, if it leaks. So the event's gonna be Tuesday, so it might. Really hoping it leaks before we record on Monday. But who knows?

Dan Pfeiffer
We have really gotten lucky with some.

Stacey Abrams
I know, I just.

Dan Pfeiffer
News recently. So I think that this one is definitely. You're going to put that pot in the can and then it's going to pop right out.

Stacey Abrams
Yeah, probably. All right, before we go, the election cycle is ramping up. And if that feels like being trapped in a Boeing that's already lost a wheel but still speeding down the Runway, we're here to help. Every week, we're cutting through the noise with honest, open, sanity preserving conversations about what's at stake. We're talking abortion, health care, immigration, taxes, supreme Court positions and so much more. Want to be proactive but don't know where to start? Consider subscribing to Pod Save America. And if you're already subscribed, let's take it a step further. Share an episode with five of your friends so they can share it with five of their friends.

This line says, that's right. We're bringing back y two k chain letters, a reference that I don't know who will understand.

Dan Pfeiffer
I mean, we're of the demographic who should understand it, and I don't understand it.

Stacey Abrams
Barely. Yeah. And if you're too young to know what that means. Oh, look, I just should have read the next sentence. We need you out there more than anyone. I love when the housekeeping surprises me. Head to Apple or your preferred podcast platform now to make sure you're subscribed, then share your favorite episode with someone in your life who could be more engaged, active, and hopeful for our democracy. There's no time to waste. All right, that's our show for today. We will be back with a new pod on Tuesday morning. And everyone, have a good weekend and we'll talk to you then.

Dan Pfeiffer
Bye, everyone.

Stacey Abrams
If you want to get ad free episodes, exclusive content, and more, consider joining our friends of the Pod subscription community@cricket.com. friends and if you're already doom scrolling, don't forget to follow us at Podsave America on Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content, and more. Plus, if you're as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review to help boost this episode or spice up the group chat by sharing it with friends, family, or randos. You want in on this conversation? Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producer is David Toledo. Our associate producers are Sol Rubin and Farah Safari. Reed Churlin is our executive editor and Adrian Hill is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis writing support by Hallie Kiefer. Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt de Grote is our head of production. Andy Taft is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hailey Jones, Phoebe Bradford, Joseph Dutra, Ben Hethcote, Mia Kellman, Molly Lobel, Kirill Pellaviev, and David Tols.

Dan Pfeiffer
First, the bad news SAP business AI won't help you generate cubist versions of your family's holiday photos, but it will help you understand which supplier is best to help you roll out your plant based packaging in Southeast Asia or identify the training your junior project manager needs to rise up the.

Stacey Abrams
Ranks and automate repetitive tasks while you focus on big innovations so you can.

Dan Pfeiffer
Be ready for the next opportunity.

Revolutionary technology, real world results? That's SAP business AI.

Stacey Abrams
This is a Reese's peanut butter cup sound experiment. We're looking to find the perfect way to hear Reese's so you'll buy more of them.

Dan Pfeiffer
Here we go. Reese's. Reese's.

Stacey Abrams
Reese's.

Reese's.

Reese's. Hey, get out of here. You'll stinker.

Reese's. Reeses.

Reese's peanut butter cups. That breathy one sounded very creepy, am I right?