The MAGA Plot to Jail Democrats

Speaker A
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Speaker B
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Welcome to Pod save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

Dan Pfeiffer
I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

Speaker B
On today's show, Donald Trump and his goons are planning to lock up democrats if they win. One of those goons, Steve Bannon, is finally going to jail. Joe Biden makes the case for democracy at the D Day anniversary in Normandy, and republicans block a bill that would protect access to birth control. But first, it has been a week now since a jury unanimously found Donald Trump guilty of committing 34 felonies. This comes after another jury found the Trump Organization guilty of 17 felonies. And two separate juries found Trump liable for sexual abuse and defamation. All unanimous verdicts as well. He's not doing so well with the juries, Dan. It's a lot of jurors. That's a lot of jurors in four different juries. Just. Nah, he's struck out. He's owing in 42 jurors.

Dan Pfeiffer
Did you just do some fast math there?

Speaker B
I think so. We'll see if it's right or not.

Dan Pfeiffer
It's definitely not right. Does it have to be a multiple of twelve?

Speaker B
You know, it's fine.

We'll take care of it in post.

And we're finally starting to see some evidence that the small slice of persuadable voters who hadn't yet made up their mind about the election might not want to reward an unrepentant criminal with the job of running the country.

The New York Times re interviewed nearly 2000 swing state voters who participated in their last poll and found that Trump lost 7% of his voters. 3% said they're now backing Biden, 4% said they're now undecided, taking Trump's previously three point lead down to one point.

The Times also interviewed some of these voters and did a separate focus group of undecided voters, as did our friend Sarah Longwell. All of which we can talk about. But first, what's your take on the post verdict polling? And more importantly, does it tell you anything about how we should talk about the verdict with undecided voters?

Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, there are a couple of interesting things from the polls. One, we should be, even though the numbers are smaller than common sense or common decency would suggest, in terms of wanting a convicted felon to be president, United States, it should be encouraging to everyone that things matter, right? This does actually matter. It matter. It's 7% of voters is not a lot of voters, but it is more than enough to tip the White House one direction or the other. So it's, in that sense, it's a very big deal.

The overall magnitude is not great, but the impact in a race this close is seismic, potentially. Now, if you look across all the polls, one of the main takeaways is that Biden's number doesn't really move. Maybe it goes up a point. A lot of times it stays the same. What is happening is that Trump is losing voters, and most of them are going into the undecided column. Right? Undecided in this case, could mean maybe they're going to back Trump again. Maybe they're going to back a third party candidate like RFK junior. Maybe they're not going to vote at all. That might be the most likely scenario. Or they might vote for Biden. Now, Trump losing a voter is a minus one for him, right? It's a net vote gain for Biden. If Biden gets that voter, it's a net to vote gain for Biden. So that is what we want. We want to move them, not just undecided, we want to move them to pro Biden. And so what my takeaway from this is we have a lot of work to do, right, that there is an opportunity here. It is not going to be realized right immediately. Because not only are these folks moving undecided. In the data for Progress poll that Tommy and Adisu talked about on Wednesday's podcast, 60% of SW, their swing identified swing voter universe are not paying close attention to the trial. That is a much larger percentage in the overall electorate. So the voters we need the most are paying the least attention. But what we have seen is the, when those voters hear about it, it causes them to rethink Trump. So that is an argument for Democrats to keep talking about this, to keep hammering it, to keep making it part of the larger argument against Trump.

Speaker B
Yeah. And in the New York Times survey, of the 2000 people they had already polled a couple weeks ago, a sizable share of that group, 16%, said they hadn't heard enough about the verdict to say whether they approved or disapproved. And more than a quarter of those voters paid little or no attention at all to the trial.

The other interesting thing is the most likely people to switch their votes away from Trump and also towards Biden.

Younger voters, non white voters, disengaged voters, people who hadn't followed, who haven't been following the news that closely, Biden 2020, voters who had previously said they were voting for Trump, and the double haters. So the voters who said that they disapprove of both Trump and Biden. So the very voters that Biden had been struggling with in a lot of these polls are the voters who, when they heard about the verdict, tended to have a, have second thoughts about voting for Trump, which I thought was very interesting. I also want to dig into sort of why people switched, which again, the New York Times did interviews with some of these voters that they polled. They also had, there was another focus group as well. You know me, I love, love focus groups.

Dan Pfeiffer
Why do you love focus groups, Sean?

Speaker B
Because I host another podcast called the wilderness. You should check out this Sunday. We have another episode of the wilderness coming.

This is going to focus on black voters, persuadable black voters who have not yet decided who they're going to support. So tune in, guys, tune in. So some of the reasons people switched. One guy in Nevada said that he actually wants to see if Trump gets jail time or not. And that's really, he's now undecided. He's gone from pro Trump to undecided. And I think if Trump gets jail time, he's going to be more likely. This is Kristen Soltus Anderson is a republican pollster. She wrote a whole piece about this in the New York times that there's actually a lot of voters who jail time will make the difference for them. So I thought that was interesting.

Dan Pfeiffer
I would fucking hope so.

Speaker B
I mean, but my thing is like, why do you need the jail? The conviction seems like it should just.

Dan Pfeiffer
I mean, even if you were like kind of iffy on maybe was a fair trial, if you care that much about falsifying business records to interfere in election, a president in prison seems like kind of a monkey wrench in the works here.

Speaker B
I think for people who weren't paying attention to the trial or who still haven't paid attention that much, jail is a signifier that it is a more serious offense than just, oh, you get like, you know, community service or whatever. A guy in Georgia said, my thing is just go ahead and be honest. We as Americans, we can respect that a lot of people make mistakes.

And he said he's very worried that Trump would seek retribution against Democrats. Democrats, which we're going to talk about. But that is interesting, too. It's sort of why I was, I keep calling him an unrepentant criminal. There are people who you look at Donald Trump and he's just showed, he's showed no remorse. He has admitted nothing. He has said that he's made no mistakes. It's just like victim, victim, victim. And I think that probably doesn't land well with a lot of people. And then there was an interesting, there was a woman in Pennsylvania who volunteers with people who've been incarcerated. You don't want to dig in too much on this woman because they said that she was, she was a Biden voter who then decided she was going to vote for Trump because Joe Biden allowed Roe v. Wade to be overturned and didn't do anything about it.

That's so just, you know. But she said, if a person who received 34 felony convictions in one day can still run for president, why can my guy not apply for a job at a gas station? It's not that Trump's guilty. It's the fact that he can still carry on his life without any kind of hurdles. This, to me, is, I think, maybe the most salient argument for a lot of people.

And this goes to Trump trying to say, oh, you know, there's a lot of black Americans who identify with me now and who are gonna vote for me because they've experienced unfairness with the criminal justice system. And he's trying to say that the fairness and the unfairness in the criminal justice system, which a lot of people will believe it's unfair that he's trying to, he's trying to make himself be part of that right to get sympathy. And I think you have to separate him from most other defendants, most other people who've been convicted, most other people who've gone to jail, because Donald Trump, he plays by a different set of rules from everyone else. Right? Like, he's been, just been charged and convicted of 34 felonies. He's got another 54 felony charges that he's awaiting, and he doesn't, you know, he might not have to go to jail.

He gets to do, he gets to be president of the United States. And most people can't. Even when they, when they leave jail, they can't even vote. They can't get a job, and Donald Trump gets to do whatever he wants because he's Donald Trump. Like, I do think that's a pretty powerful argument.

Dan Pfeiffer
The idea. Well, this is, I'm not sure this is the right public message, but just as a point, imagine how blatant and stupid a criminal you have to be to be one of the richest, most politically connected white men in America and still get convicted on 34 felonies in, like 6 seconds.

It's just, it's just, it is right there. I think one of the things about how we talk about this is it's not enough just to call him a convicted phone, although I think we should do that because people have not yet paid attention. So we cannot let, we cannot allow this to be memory hold, like so many other previous transgressions.

But it's not, it should not be about saying what kind of person Trump is because that is baked into the cake. People, they're either going to vote for an asshole, they're not going to vote for a selfish asshole, right. That they know that about them. So you have to spin it forward to make it be about what kind of President Trump will be. Right. As evidence of the core part of the argument, that Trump is only in this for himself and his presidency is going to be about avoiding further legal accountability, helping himself, and as we will get to soon, seeking revenge on his adversaries, like, it has to be part of that story. And it is, like, one of the most salient, most resonant data points to prove that story. But it's one we're gonna have to hammer over and over and over again because, you know, five months ago from Wednesday was the election. And that's all, that is an eternity in trying to keep this in front, in front of voters, because as all this polling shows, the voters that we need most are paying the least attention.

Speaker B
Did you read the focus group of undecided voters in the Times that I think they had Frank Leun Stew and Pat Healy and some other folks?

Dan Pfeiffer
Yes, I did.

I have a lot to say about how the New York Times presents it on their website. Cause it's basically impossible to follow with all the graphics and the sketches and the jumps.

Speaker B
Yeah, they're trying to do some multimedia thing that's supposed to be fancy. It doesn't really work as well.

Dan Pfeiffer
Just give me a transcript is what I want.

Speaker B
Definitely. Go check it out. I highly recommend it. Again, you'll pull your hair out, you'll laugh, but I think you'll walk away fairly hopeful. A lot of those voters were surprised.

I thought that was notable by the verdict. Right? Like, they didn't. And we see, we saw this in polls prior to the verdict. People did not expect him to be convicted. A lot of people in the focus group mentioned the jury as a reason to support the verdict and why they thought the trial was fair, which is, again, it's important to mention the jury all the time when you're talking to people. A couple people mentioned fear that Donald Trump would enact retribution on people if he becomes president as a reason not to vote for him post conviction. And then again, there was a guy who said, we're all regular people with regular jobs. If any of us did, like, 1000th of what this guy did for being on trial, we would all have been fired. We'd all have been out on our butts applying for jobs at grocery stores or driving Uber or whatnot. And that was a guy who was thinking about voting for Trump. And now he's not going to. So again. And then there's, then there's, of course, just some funny ones, crazy comments. You know, one person said, I want a president who's gonna be able to cover up a $130,000 bribe to Daniels. If he can't pull that off, I'm not gonna trust him with a nuclear football.

Dan Pfeiffer
So that person is now voting for Biden because Trump is not a good criminal.

Speaker B
Yeah.

Dan Pfeiffer
Okay, good. You know what?

Speaker B
You know what? We'll take the votes wherever we can get them.

Dan Pfeiffer
Every vote, every vote counts the same.

Speaker B
Just voters. You know, it's amazing.

Dan Pfeiffer
Wait, before we chance this in, have you seen the ad that the republican voters against Trump did a few months ago where they took, they tried to get jobs working at a shopping mall with Trump's resume? No, this is pre conviction. They sent real people. It's not like actors. They sent real people in and they blurred out the faces saying, could I work here if I was convicted, if I, if a court found me guilty, liable for sexual assault or all of the other things that Trump did. And I think it's a really interesting way to sort of just make it feel real to people. Like, what the actual impact is in two ways. Right. It's just, it seems like to a lot of people, it's political and it's out there and it's New York and all of this. But it, but it brings it down to the level of, would you hire a person who had just been convicted of this exact crime to do things like, oh, I don't know, manage the economy for somebody who just was convicted of 34 counts of falsifying business records? And it also show, then it gets to the second point you highlighted, which is a normal person couldn't get a job at a mall with this on their record. And Donald Trump gets to be president, United states. And there's that. There is this two tiered system of justice where rich, powerful people like Donald Trump are above law. And that's a system he wants to perpetuate. Right. Just on stage today in Arizona, he was doing, he brought on stage Sheriff Joe Arpaio, a person convicted of crimes that he pardoned. Right.

Because he was a political crony of Donald Trump's. Right. And so that that sort of cronyism, political cronyism, corruption is a helpful argument that can be tied to this as well.

Speaker B
Convicted of crimes.

Joe Arpaio, I just, again, everything gets memory holed. He brings Joe Arpaio on stage. Joe Arpaio up on stage. He kisses him. He says, I don't kiss men, but I'm kissing Joe Arpaio. I guess, like, happy pride.

Dan Pfeiffer
Did you watch the video?

Speaker B
I did watch the video.

Dan Pfeiffer
There's a kiss.

Speaker B
The team said, wait, we should play this clip. And I said, well, you know, it's an audio medium, but maybe we should put it on social media. But the point. But the less funny point is Joe Arpaio, like, bragged that his jails that he ran were concentration camps. He literally said that he was proud that they were concentration camps. He denied food and medical care to prisoners. He was found by the courts to violate the 8th amendment against cruel and unusual punishment. He installed a live video feed camera in the woman's holding cell. I mean, it was torture what Joe Arpaio did. He would not just racially profile, he would lock up people just because they spoke Spanish. And so he suspected that they might be undocumented immigrants, even if they were citizens, and then found guilty of a whole bunch of crimes. And then, of course, pardoned by one convicted felon, pardoned now by another convicted felon, Donald Trump. And he brings him up on stage. That's. That's who Donald Trump is. That's. That's what we got to, uh, that's what we're working with here. All right, before we break, um, we are officially less than three weeks away from the publication of our book, democracy or else. How to save America in ten easy steps. June 25. Dan, we're so close.

Dan Pfeiffer
It's here. It is here.

Speaker B
Big news to our book event in Boston. Guess who's going to be moderated by Dan Pfeiffer.

Dan Pfeiffer
I would say we got Dan only a little offended as you went through. That was on all the emails where everyone you wanted was not available. And then you finally asked the guy who was already staying in the same hotel as you.

Speaker B
I honestly, like, I didn't even think about it. And then part of it is, like, we just asked you to do so much. I'm like, why are we asking Dan to do this fucking book event? It would be like his one night.

Dan Pfeiffer
Off, but I'm happy to do it. You guys did many of my book events.

Speaker B
Well, we appreciate that. Uh, if you're in New York or Boston, we have jam packed week of events. Uh, on June 25, Alyssa will be moderating Alyssa Mastromonaco. Uh, we'll be moderating a book launch discussion with, uh, me, Lovett, and Tommy at Symphony Space in New York City. Uh, on June 26, we're kicking off the pod Save America live tour at the Brooklyn Paramount Theater with very special guest host Stacey Abrams. That's exciting. On June 27 at 06:00 p.m. in Boston, this is the Dan event. We're going to be pregaming the Trump Biden debate with a book chat at first Parish church.

So that's exciting. Dan's going to have plenty of survivor questions for Lovett that he'll probably not be able to answer if he's back by then, who knows?

And then on June 28, pod Save America will be live at the Wilbur Boston for a post debate show with guest host Mehdi Hasen, followed by a late night love it or leave it with guests Kathleen Turner and Jay Jordan, also at the Wilbur. Wow, that's gonna be a busy week. It's a busy week. You can get tickets to all of these events@cricket.com events right now. And if you're not in New York or Boston, you can still preorder your copy of democracy or else, wherever you get your books, please go preorder our book. We gotta get, we gotta get on top of that New York Times bestseller list, Dan, and now we just gotta get on it, really. And now it's crunch time, you know, and I think we're already. Maybe we'll beat Christy nome, maybe we'll beat the dog killer. But, like, there's always gonna be some kind of right wing kook that we're trying to beat out on the New York Times bestseller list, on all the bestsellers. So please go order democracy else. And guess what? If you order it, the proceeds are going to vote save America. So you're going to be helping actually save democracy. And then you get a fun book to read with great jokes, great advice, and real smart advice from really smart people like Dan.

Dan Pfeiffer
Look, people buy the book. Buy it early. You're going to like the book. You're going to like helping vote save America and feel good about beating Christine. Oh, and what other right wing MAGA nut is trying to rig the bestseller list? Because that's what the right does, right? They buy books in bulk to get their authors on the bestseller list so that the publishers will then give more book contracts to right wing nuts to spread mag extremism across the country.

Speaker B
Time for you to rig the book list for democracy.

Dan Pfeiffer
But we're going to do, we're not going to rig it with the cokes, buying a bunch of books and mass. We're going to do it grassroots style. Yes, grassroots rigging is what we're doing.

Speaker B
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Speaker C
That's just a really advanced, smart kid.

Speaker B
Cause you know what? I do not have a child sleep expert.

Speaker C
We're off and on these days.

Speaker B
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Dan Pfeiffer
I do.

Speaker C
We have a helix mattress in our guest bedroom. It's been getting a workout. I do not like how that sounds.

Speaker B
The end of the sentence is gonna be even worse.

Speaker C
Leave it in.

Dan Pfeiffer
Leave it in.

Speaker B
But I don't like how that sounded.

Speaker C
And what I meant by that was my mom has been visiting.

Speaker B
See, that's why I couldn't even visit.

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John Lovett
This show is sponsored by Betterhelp. This year has gone so quickly. What is something I'm proud of in 2024? Oh, boy. There are so many things I'm proud of. Yeah, I'm proud of.

Oh, I'm proud of the fact that we finished our book.

Speaker C
That's right.

John Lovett
Democracy. Or else. How to save America in ten easy steps. It's available for pre order right now. We're trying to get on the New York Times bestseller list. That'll make me proud.

Speaker C
That'd be great.

John Lovett
But I've also, I'm sure, had some interior things that made me proud as well. Not just, you know, not just tokens of material and sort of success in the world.

Speaker B
Right.

John Lovett
But I couldn't think of one right now.

Speaker B
Right.

Speaker C
Yeah, sure.

John Lovett
The point is, that's why I need therapy. Why do you need therapy? You know why. Everyone needs therapy. It's important to take moments to celebrate your wins and make adjustments for the rest of the year. Therapy can help you take stock of your progress and set achievable goals for the next six months. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give better help a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapist anytime for no additional charge. Take a moment, visit betterhelp.com PSA today and get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp help.com psa.

Speaker A
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Speaker B
All right. As Trump waits to be sentenced for his crimes, he is, of course, out there doing everything he can to reassure voters that he's learned his lesson and will, of course, respect the rule of law. Here's Trump saying a bunch of crazy shit on Hannity Wednesday night.

Donald Trump
Even Schumer has become like a Palestinian. Chuck Schumer, Jewish, always strong for Israel. He's become like a Palestinian.

He said it's an existential threat. He loves the words existential threat, that global warming is an existential threat, and he doesn't know why.

What is it? It's weather.

And I'm all for that. You know what? I'm in a certain way and a very powerful way, I'm an environmentalist.

Dan Pfeiffer
Those that want people to believe that you want retribution, that you will use.

Donald Trump
The system of justice to go after your political enemy. So, number one, they're wrong. It has to stop, because otherwise we're not going to have a country. Look, when this election is over, based on what they've done, I would have every right to go after them.

Speaker B
Yeah, I threw the first two in. Just because a Trump is so anti palestinian that he now uses it as an insult. He also told donors a couple of weeks ago, we didn't even mention this, that he was going, if he's elected president, he's going to set back the palestinian cause 25, 30 years. So no friend of the. No friend of the Palestinians. And of course, the, once again, we just played a clip earlier this week of him talking about climate change when he said all it's going to do is give us more beachfront property. Now he's just saying it's just weather. It's just weather. So that's, that's Trump on that. But I want to talk about the comments he made about, um, revenge.

Really, the only question left is, if Trump wins, will he have the desire and the power to prosecute and potentially jail anyone who opposes him? Adam Lip tack, the legal reporter for the Times, wrote a pretty alarming piece I would encourage everyone to read that says Trump would have, quote, immense authority to actually carry out the kinds of legal retribution he has been promoting. He will be able to tell Justice Department officials to investigate and prosecute his rivals and fire those who refuse. What's your level of alarm on this.

Dan Pfeiffer
One, on a scale of one to ten? I'm about a 38, I'd say.

Speaker B
Yeah, no, this is, this is maybe my, this is like in the top. Top three or top five for me.

Dan Pfeiffer
Where do you think we are on the list?

Speaker B
I mean, here's what. Who knows?

We're trying not to talk about that here. This is how the clip gets pulled and aired on Fox, and then we get on the list.

Dan Pfeiffer
Growth. Gross.

Speaker C
Growth.

Dan Pfeiffer
Gross.

Speaker B
Go ahead, you tell me why you're alarmed about it. And then I can get into my whole spiel on this.

Dan Pfeiffer
I would just say that I don't really think we'd be targeted, but I was walking through the crooked offices when I was there two weeks ago, and I went to that back part that I don't go to very often for a meeting. And I saw the framed is a copy of that chart from the NSC memo that Seb Gorka wrote about the echo chamber that has all of our faces on it. For what? That we were running some sort of program to undermine Donald Trump.

Speaker B
Yeah, that's true. And so when at least Seb Gorka won't be back in the administration. Oh, wait, probably, yes.

Dan Pfeiffer
Yes, he will.

I would encourage everyone to go check that out. That was really a real fun moment in history. But the reason, like your original question was, will Donald Trump have the power and desire to do this? Of course he had the desire to do it last time. He, there is all the reporting and all the books talked about him wanting to investigate his rivals. Right? He spun up the Durham report to try to go after the people investigating him for collusion with Russia. He talked about jailing opponents Jeff Sessions.

Speaker B
Told investigators, told Mueller's investigators that Trump wanted him to investigate and prosecute Hillary Clinton. If you remember, Jeff Sessions recused himself. Trump was angry because he, and that's what Sessions testified, he wanted him to investigate and prosecute Hillary Clinton. And that's when Sessions replacement, Bill Barr, had John Durham open up an investigation that eventually led to the Clinton campaign.

Dan Pfeiffer
Reports about him fulminating about the IR's auditing opponents. Right? All of these we knew we wanted to do. And the only reason it didn't happen, and it really is sort of by the grace of God, is there were people in power who, for as bad as they were, right, like we're relying on the gravitas and morality of Jeff Sessions, prevented it from happening, right? Jeff Sessions, Bill Barr, John Bolton, these sorts of people, right? These are not heroes of democracy by any choice of imagination, but they did not follow through on Trump's orders. And there was also a sense that the rest of the republican party, particularly folks in Congress, would not go along with this sort of stuff, right? That this was a bridge too far for them. Well, flash forward to 2025 and all of those safeguards are gone. Every person Trump hires will be an extreme loyalist, willing to go to the hilt to implement whatever Trump's desires are.

And then the reaction within the party to Trump's conviction in these investigations is that retribution against political opponents is now a. That is an accepted republican party policy. And one of the most disturbing things was this was mentioned in the New York Times article from Maggie Haberman, Jonathan Swan, and Charlie Savage, sort of detailing some of these conversations in the party, is this article from John Yoo, a Berkeley law professor who sort of infamously wrote the memos that authorized torture and wiretapping in the Bush administration, making a constitutionalist case for retribution against Trump's political opponents, that the only way to stop political retribution is to, is revenge. Sort of a mutually assured destruction of arresting your opponents. And that's the kind of stuff that always, that sort of faux intellectual permission structure from the right wing is always what precipitates these things actually happening, right? It creates this aura of legitimacy for people like Marco Rubio, who tweeted his support for such a thing with fire emojis the other day and is always cringe behavior. And so I think we should be very, very concerned about this, because this is very, if Trump wins, the most likely scenario is that he is going to weaponize the power of government in the most ironic way possible, given all the bullshit from Republicans over the last few years. To investigate, arrest, and potentially jail his political opponents.

Speaker B
And again, I think it's important for people to understand that, you know, when you hear about Trump wanting to take revenge on his political opponents, you may think like, you know, Joe Biden, Joe Biden's family, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, like all the Republicans that were disloyal to him. Right. All the people he's mad at, all the people he tweets about. And, you know, there's a lot of people are probably, I would say most Americans probably very much against that. Right. But you might think also, well, it's not something that affects my life.

And the challenge is that, like, once you start down the road of having an entire Justice Department filled with crazy right wing prosecutors, once you clear out the FBI and you have a bunch of, like, crazy right wing FBI agents, again, these aren't just, like, conservative FBI agents, conservative prosecutors. These are, like, maga types. And once you have departments like that, it doesn't have to necessarily just be them going after Trump's political opponents. It's them going after Democrats or anyone that seems like they are favorable towards Democrats. You can imagine political prosecutions against, like, abortion providers in blue states, companies that sell pride merch that have contributed to democrats media outlets, you know, labor unions. Labor unions, right? Like, it just goes on and on and on and it goes, and it starts with Trump. But whatever Trump wants and whatever Trump's focused on, that's not even going to matter as much as, like, what all of these other prosecutors and all these other FBI agents want to do and will have the full power of the law behind them. And what it does is even if you're not targeted, what happens in authoritarian countries, what happens when there's autocrats in power, is that there is this pervasive culture of fear so that no one wants to speak out, no one wants to do anything. You're constantly afraid that you're going to have a knock on the door because you've pissed off either your local maga prosecutor or governor or state legislature or, you know, goes right up the ladder.

And that is, once you start down that path, I think it is very, very difficult to come back from that. And so anyone who thinks, like, this is gonna be some show trial against, you know, the people that Donald Trump hates personally, and maybe I'm not gonna be affected.

I don't think you should comfort yourself with that thought.

Dan Pfeiffer
And then there was the question of, how do you like that? Is exactly, that's the substantive argument. Why? About why this is dangerous how do you, for a lot of people, and this is always one of the challenge with Trump stuff, is, well, you sound like alarmist lunatics. And this didn't happen last time, right? So why should we worry now? And I think we have, you have to explain about why this time is different, which I tried to do earlier. But there is also a point here, is we have to want, like we're still trying to win, like you are raising the alarm for why this is bad for the country. We also have make voters care enough about it that they will prevent it from happening with, we're the only place where we have the true power to stop it, which is at the ballot box this November. And there are a couple of ways, I think, to do that. One is we have to once again fit it into that story about Trump, right, that this is all about him. A presidency that is about seeking retribution at your political opponents is a presidency that is about helping Donald Trump. And then the other thing is, there is an opportunity cost here. If Donald Trump is spending all of his time trying to do, go after Alvin Bragg and Hillary Clinton said things, that means he's not spending that time trying to lower your costs, right? He's so busy fighting for himself that he's not fighting for you. And that is an, I think that's an important part of trying to explain this and understand why it matters to people, because even you're gonna have to.

I think it's hard to get the average person to think that this is somehow gonna redound against them, that they will somehow end up on a list or someone they know will get prosecuted, but it can affect their lives because he's not focused on them. And I think that is the morbid that the probably more believable way for the average voter to interpret this than the idea that with the very real and true thing that their local prosecutor is going to start prosecuting, you know, the local hospital for the local pharmacy that's selling abortion pills or whatever else.

Speaker B
I actually think that the issue of abortion, which is going to be, you know, one of the very top issues in this election that people very much understand right now and is almost a proof point in making this larger argument. And you've talked about this before in framing this election and framing what Trump and MaGA wanna do as sort of taking away people's freedoms, because this falls under, under that, right. Like he wants to. He thought it was okay. He said it was okay for states to monitor women's pregnancies. Right. And what Trump and Republicans in states are doing to restrict access to abortion and to restrict access to care that, um, that mothers need, who may have, who may be having a miscarriage. I mean, go down the list. We've talked about it before. Like, that is the kind of thing what, what, what they're doing in schools with don't say gay laws. I mean, I think, I really do think you can fit all of these issues and all of these moves that Republicans have made over the last several years into this bucket of they want to take away your freedoms. If you don't agree with everything they agree with.

Dan Pfeiffer
The Biden campaign is going to air an ad on Thursday night during the NBA Finals that is about. It's called flag. It's about freedom and democracy. It doesn't address this specifically, but is about.

This election is a battle for freedom in democracy and american values against this extremist movement that wants to overturn elections, take away your freedoms. And that is like, you will have to build this story into it. But that is the larger frame. I think. I think it's a very good spot.

Speaker B
And then the other thing is, again, the reason it didn't happen last time is because he didn't have the right people in place. Trump will next time have plenty of administration officials and outside advisers encouraging him to take revenge. Stephen Miller, who has been floated as Trump's next White House chief of staff, potentially. How fun would that be? Good times, is urging republican district attorneys openly to start prosecuting Democrats. Now, as you mentioned, potential Vice president Marco Rubio tweeted that it's time to fight fire with flame emoji. Flame emoji, flame emoji.

And here's MAGA podcaster Tim Pool and self described Islamophobe Laura Loomer talking about jailing and executing Democrats.

Dan Pfeiffer
Should Democrats be in jail? No question.

Speaker B
When Donald Trump gets elected, should he.

John Lovett
Start locking them up?

Dan Pfeiffer
No question.

Speaker B
Should there be lists of Democrats that need to go to jail? 100%.

Dan Pfeiffer
Not just jail.

Laura Loomer
They should get the death penalty.

Speaker B
You know, we actually used to have the punishment for treason in this country.

Death penalty.

A reminder, Trump lets Laura Loomer ride around with him on his plane, calls her very special, tried to hire her to work on the campaign until some of his staff found out, and they put the kibosh on at last minute.

She says she wants to be press secretary in the next Trump White House. Does this seem like information we should get in front of american voters about all these kooks connected to Trump? We just talked about Joe Arpaio. I mean, it's just, I do wonder if at some point, as part of the story that we want to tell is it's not just Trump and power, but the people around Trump and what they're going to do. Much like, you know, in contrast, some people who were worried that Joe Biden is too old for the job, something that reassures people, and I've heard this in focus groups as well, is that he's got a lot of really good, qualified people around him. And I think you probably want to make the case that Trump does not.

Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, I think that's right. And I was going to, you raised the exact point I was going to say, which is when you hear of people debating Trump first, Biden in focus groups, and they're legitimately trying to process how they're going to make that decision, one of the points almost always in Biden's favor you hear from voters is he surrounds himself with good people. Right. It's like serious people or in Trump certainly does not. It's the exact opposite. And I think it's like, obviously, no one's going to know who Laura Loomer or Tim Pool or even Stephen Miller is, right? No actual persuadable voter is going to know that. But the fact that they are all members of this extremist Maga movement that supported the big lie that was part of January 6, that I think does matter to people. It's why the MAGA, republican, MAGA, extremist republican message was so powerful in 2022, is that people are deeply, there is a large swath of voters, and particularly among persuadable voters, who are very concerned about that sort of extremist movement having power in this country. And it's the extremist movement that took away abortion access, all these things. Like, I think that's how we have to do it, is that those are the people gonna be running the country with Donald Trump. It's not gonna be serious people. It's not gonna be people who put the country first. It's gonna be people who put Donald Trump first.

Speaker B
I would at the very least create and probably test a couple ads that include some of the most extreme characters who may reappear in a second Trump terminal and just use their voice and the things they've said, whether it's Mike Flynn, Stephen Miller, Laura Loomer. I do think that kind of ad could work with some of the college educated independents, Republicans who were maybe Biden voters, who are now sort of slipping away a little bit and thinking maybe Trump wasn't so bad. Like, you could see in, you know, in some suburbs around big cities in these swing states, you could see ads like that working with, with those voters.

Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, that's interesting. You could just use the like, Rick Rennell is another example, Mike Flynn talking.

Speaker B
About QAnon and I mean, it's like there's some crazy shit out there.

Dan Pfeiffer
The Biden campaign, frequently, when they pull clips that they're going to share on social of Trump supporters, they will often use the rumored cabinet position of that person. Like potential Trump attorney general, so and so, potential rumored Trump Secretary of State Rick Grinnell saying x. And I think that's a interesting way of doing that.

Speaker B
There's one Trump advisor thirsting for revenge who I saved for last because we found out today that before Steve Bannon can help put any Democrats in jail, he's heading there himself, Dan.

A judge ordered Bannon to surrender by July 1 so he can begin serving a four month sentence after being convicted for contempt of Congress in 2022 when he refused a subpoena to provide documents and testimony to the January 6 committee. Bannon will now be in prison through the election, through early November. But then when he gets out, he also has a fraud trial, separate fraud trial scheduled for later this year. Might have to move because I think he'll be in jail when it's supposed to start in September. What a shame. What a shame.

My biggest question, though, is, what do you think is going to happen to his podcast, the war room? Do you think they're going to let Tommy co host or guest host?

Dan Pfeiffer
I would say that I have no sympathy for Steve Bannon, but brief, just sort of like a understanding for the people who run the war room podcast? Because, you know, what do you do if in the run up to the elections, one of your posts just go, just disappears for a while, right? Just all of a sudden decides thanks.

Speaker B
To a jury of his peers?

Dan Pfeiffer
Yes.

I mean, is it really that dissimilar Steve Bannon going to jail? Donald Trump? Sorry, Steve. You know, the really funny thing is when I was writing my, my answer is this, I kept writing Trump instead of Lovett every time I tried to break this joke out.

Speaker B
You know what? It's understandable. It's understandable.

Dan Pfeiffer
Yes. So let me try that again. But we should leave all of this in. Is it really, is Steve Bannon going to jail really that different than John Lovett going on survivor in the middle of the election? No, not really.

Speaker B
It's the question you all have to answer for yourself.

Dan Pfeiffer
Yes.

Speaker B
Trump had a response to this Bannon go to jail. And his response is that the January 6 committee, the entire committee, should be indicted. Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger, Jamie. Everyone who was on the committee, indict him. That's. That's what we got. That's what we got going. Because Steve Bannon going to jail for the stupidest fucking reason ever, by the way. All he had to do was come testify before a congressional committee, which. Which everyone else does. Everyone else gets to do. But not Steve Bannon. Steve Bannon said no because he wanted to make himself a martyr. So you know what? Now he's in jail for four months. Could have easily avoided it. He's going to complain. It's a political prosecution. Could have easily avoided it by just going and answering a few questions.

Dan Pfeiffer
You know what I'd say to Steve Bannon? Mission accomplished.

Speaker B
Yeah, no kidding.

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Speaker B
So just in case you're concerned that Trump and his gang of criminals aren't getting a fair shake from the justice system, fear not. The Supreme Court majority Trump created still still hasn't ruled on the apparently very difficult question of whether presidents are allowed to commit crimes. Which means that the chance of a verdict in Jack Smith's January 6 case before the election is nearly gone. The all Republican Georgia Court of Appeals just froze that state's election interference case against Trump until well after the election while they decide whether district Attorney Fonnie Willis should be disqualified from the case.

You'd say that one is both the court of appeals fault and maybe Fonny Willis's fault as well. And Trump's favorite judge, Eileen Cannon, who he appointed, has frozen the classified documents case in Florida until after the election as well.

I'm sure any criminal defendant facing 54 more felony counts would have that kind of luck, right, Dan?

Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, seems totally fair and not at all surprising that a bunch of republican judges, some of them appointed by Trump, are rigging the system to ensure he faces no legal accountability before the voters must decide who their next president is. The Supreme Court thing, I just have to say, is unfucking conscionable.

This is, by every legal expert's judgment, an open and shut Casey open a shot. They could have done this in five minutes.

Speaker B
I just, I will disagree with that.

They have fucked this and they have done it like, I do think there's, like, intentional delay here, especially among the conservative members. But I think that the case raises questions.

Questions, by the way, that we. That could come up again if Donald Trump wins and he tries to prosecute Joe Biden. Right. Which is what acts of a president during office can be prosecuted and which cannot. And how do you draw the line? And where do you draw the line now? It should be a pretty fucking easy line for them to draw. But I think that's my point.

When you listen to the oral arguments, they clearly were thinking, like, they have to create a ruling here that is like, that goes just beyond the narrow question and seeks to understand what acts a president can or can't be prosecuted for, which is totally bullshit. And again, they could have taken the case earlier. They could have not let it go through the whole fucking process and just taken it originally when Jack Smith asked them to take it and skipped over the court of appeals, they could have written. They could have put all the other fucking decisions aside and written a decision by now. It's crazy, right?

Dan Pfeiffer
That's my point. Like, there, there were so many ways to dispense of this without even wrestling with those questions. Because you could do that at a later date, right? Knowing that the direct, immediately immediate consequence of their delay is that Donald Trump will not face legal accountability, that they are essentially giving him de facto immunity by their delay, they could, I don't know, work into the evening. People like, work a little harder. It's like they could. They are. They are specifically trying to delay this. And now either this is, I think, a, just an absolute indictment of John Roberts as chief justice. Like, either he is going along with this plan or he is, does not have enough control of the court to avoid just further corruption of the court. Like, you have seen trust in the court just plummet under John Roberts leadership. And if you really truly care about the court, right, about the institution of the court, which he claims to do, so, you would have found a way to resolve this case in some way, shape or form. In a timeline that allowed the court, the trial courts to do their business on Trump, but he did not do that. Right. And it's just, it is, it's truly like we should be screaming about this. Democrats should be screaming about this. Right. This is way more important, although, and certainly related to which flag Sam Alito flies at his house, right?

Speaker B
Yeah, very much so.

Dan Pfeiffer
And I just, it's just, it's infuriating. And we've just sort of accepted just like another day goes by, another decision day had no, no opinion released on this case that they could have resolved if they had wanted to much, much faster.

Speaker B
The weird thing is it is pretty, it's going to be pretty close to, like, they're going to have the decision in the next couple of weeks before the end of the term, as they often do. And at that point, like, Judge Chucken will still be able to begin the trial if she wants, not until maybe like mid September. Like, it's, at that point, it's very tough to get a verdict by election day. But then we're in a situation where the final month, half of the election could be Trump on trial for January 6 and we might not get a verdict till afterwards. So, like, we don't, we don't really know how this is going to go. I don't think they're going to succeed. They may not succeed in completely delaying the case until after the election, but certainly it's not going to be very timely at this point. So let's talk about the other president running for a second term who hasn't been charged or convicted of any crimes. That's the low bar, though. Joe Biden, president, is in France right now with other world leaders to commemorate the 80th anniversary of D Day.

He sat down with ABC's David Muir for an interview where he pledged not to pardon his son Hunter if he's convicted.

He also said that Trump got a fair trial. He also gave a nice speech on Thursday. Let's hear a clip.

Donald Trump
And make no mistake, the autocrats of the world are watching closely to see what happens in Ukraine, to see if we let this illegal aggression go unchecked, we cannot let that happen.

To surrender to bullies, to bow down to dictators is simply unthinkable.

Were we to do that, it means we'd be forgetting what happened here in these hollow beaches.

Make no mistake, we will not bow down.

We will not forget.

Speaker B
So politico reports that Biden aides have been pretty open about their desire to see Biden compared to Ronald Reagan, who delivered the famous boys of Pondahawk speech at the D Day anniversary in 1984 for one of the better speeches. One of the better presidential speeches, I would say. Why do you think they want that comparison? The New York Times also just wrote a piece about this as well. I think you sent it to me.

Dan Pfeiffer
There was always a tension between the communications department's desire to get the speech coverage and the speechwriter's desire to manage expectations for said speech. Like, you are a very level headed guy. You're frankly a pleasure to work with in any environment, White House media company.

But the times when you would get a little heated would be when you felt like we were overselling the speech. And I can imagine this is just really putting a lot of pressure on.

Speaker B
Oftentimes you oversold the speech.

Dan Pfeiffer
Well, you know what? Trying to keep your tree from falling in the woods and no one hearing it.

Speaker B
But I've seen it, but it just feels like we're so.

Even from when we were in the White House, we're like, so the media environment is just so different now. Just the idea that. Because I said that the campaign sees this as a tentpole event for the campaign, this Normandy thing, it's like. I mean, I wish that were so. But we can barely get primetime speeches. His state of the union, which was excellent. The news cycle was like a day after that.

And now we're going to get a Normandy speech, is a bit. I mean, it's just. It's tough.

Dan Pfeiffer
Like, I had some real, like, white House, uh, PTSD over this whole thing. Because there is just in general, if you were someone who works, who's where domestic political considerations in an election year are part of your job portfolio, and the president is headed to France for five days, like that drives you insane. And then you're always working with your. With the. With the national security folks, always Ben and Tommy, to try to find a way to reverse engineer some domestic thing in there of value. Even though the time zone is all fucked up, your speech is in the middle of the day, or if you're in Asia in the middle of the night, no one ever sees it. We're going to go visit a place where they're offloading cars made in America, or we went to Ireland to do a thing at an irish pub because there are a lot of irish voters in Pennsylvania or whatever.

And so you're always trying to do it. I can't imagine this as actually anyone believes this to actually be a tentpole, but I will say there was a CNN story today about how the Biden campaign has hired a specific person to do outreach to republicans.

And I think there might be some synergy there between using the Reagan illusions, the old school, non isolationist foreign policy views, as a way to reach out to some of those never Trump Republicans that you want to move into your column. So I think that's probably it. But, man, these foreign trips are tough for domestic politics. You want to get, you want to get on. If you could do those on a, like, for, like, David Plouffe and I in 2012, like, if you could get to a red eye and get back in a day, like, that's, that's, that's, that's what the people work on the campaign would want.

Speaker B
I am going to, uh, speak on behalf of my fellow speech writers and try to do them a favor and lower expectations on this.

Every president tries to redo the famous Reagan speech when they go to Normandy. Like, we remember, we went twice.

We went in 2009. I wrote that one. And then I think Cody and Ben probably wrote one for the 70th anniversary. Cause that was the big one when opening 2014. Yeah, 2014. Yeah. So they did that one. And every speech writer has read the Reagan speech again. You should go read it. It's a fantastic speech. It's not like a republican speech. It's just a good speech.

And even because we've all read it, you, like, start echoing the speech as you're writing and you have to stop yourself. Cause you're like, that sounds too much like Reagan. But then how do you make it different? Because it was like, it was a given speech at a given moment. That was fantastic. And it's hard to replicate those now. I will say for Biden, because democracy all over the world, once again, really is at stake, probably more so than at any time since world war two. I would say the context and the setting is, is better for him to give a really great speech. But, you know, it's just hard. Reagan did it. You know, you could give your great speech somewhere else. That's what I would say it is.

Dan Pfeiffer
I mean, we talk about difference, and.

Speaker B
I'm speaking, by the way, we're, this, you're going to hear this on Friday, everyone. You're hearing this on Friday. And that's when Biden gives the big pondahawk speech. He had. He gave one on Thursday as well. That was the clip you just heard. But you're right. I think the effort that you mentioned that CNN reported on, that they're reaching out to Republicans because a lot of these, like, never Trump Republicans, whether you're Adam Kinzinger or Liz Cheney or whatever Chris Christie have talked about how the Biden White House or campaign more likely hasn't really reached out to them. And it's good that that process has begun, I think, because you're going to need a big tent and every last voter to beat Donald Trump.

Finally, and yet another reminder of what's at stake in this election, Donald Trump's Senate loyalists blocked for the second time a bill that would protect access to birth control for all Americans. Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski were the only Republicans to join Democrats in supporting the bill.

In case you're wondering why there's a need to protect access to birth control, republican legislatures in Missouri and Idaho are already pushing bills to block plan B and IUD's, while Republicans in Nevada, Virginia, Arizona and Wisconsin have also blocked bills that would protect birth control in those states. Republicans in the Senate gave several reasons for not supporting the bill. That include the claim that it would force catholic schools to hand out condoms to little kids. It would not. That it could be used by a judge to mandate gender change procedures. That was from Marco Rubio. Also not true. And that the bill is unnecessary because there's just no real threat to birth control. What do you think, Dan? No real threat?

Dan Pfeiffer
Well, I'd say politicians are political animals. Right. And the right to contraception polls at like 80%. So if there was no real threat and a poll at 8%, it really kind of makes you wonder why they wouldn't just vote for it.

Speaker B
Right.

Dan Pfeiffer
Maybe it's because they don't want to protect contraception and they want to take it away and they want to leave them that out.

Speaker B
It's just, I mean, you know what? You can go through plenty of quotes from people, oh, abortion safe, Roe is safe. It's not going to go away. It's never going to go away. And then Dobbs happens. And if you, again, you've got to look at some of these, like the real red states, the super red legislatures, states like Idaho, where you're starting to see some interest groups, some activists, some super right wing legislators, and they'll, they're starting with IUD's and plan B because there's, you know, real hardcore anti abortion advocates believe that life begins at fertilization.

And so that's how they'll start targeting it. And it's just going to go from there. And the fact that Republicans, look, if they, if Republicans are running around saying this is just fear mongering and, and we actually support birth control and this is crazy. And Democrats are just trying to score political points. Okay, well, then vote for a bill that would protect birth control access.

Dan Pfeiffer
It seems pretty obvious. I mean, Roe was first in Griswold v. Connecticut as second. That's the original decision which, which ensured the right to access contraception. The right has been talking about going after that for a long time. And some of the discussion after Dobbs, that was seen as what is next? And so no one should be surprised if the court is hearing a case about the right to contraception in the first couple of years of the Donald Trump residency. And think about what happens if Donald Trump gets to appoint three new judges, right, which is a real possibility.

Speaker B
Who, I'll think like Clarence Thomas did, that we should reconsider Griswold.

And also, you know, because Trump can say whatever he want. Trump's like, oh, no, I like birth control. You know, just, just today, just before he brought Joe Arpaio up on stage for a kiss, he was introduced at the turning Points USA town hall by Charlie Kirk, the founder of Turning Points USA. Charlie Kirk, who says birth control, quote, screws up female brains and creates a bitterness that leads them to become democrats.

And then he told people to make sure their loved ones aren't on birth control. He introduced Trump. Trump said he's great. Charlie Kirk, also, by the way, said that Martin Luther King Junior was awful and that the Civil Rights act was a mistake. This is, these are the people around Donald Trump.

Where are they going to end up if he's president? Some in the White House, some in the administration, some will be in all of the agencies when he purges all of the non political appointees in the federal government and replaces them with MAGA loyalists. And of course, some of them will just be his media allies outside.

So that's what we got. That's what we got. Hey, everyone, vote save America. Check it out. If you haven't signed up, go sign up.

You want to be Team east, Team west? Vote Save America, folks, will give you plenty of work to do. You can help volunteer. You can talk to voters who are somewhat like some of the voters that we have talked about today. Maybe. Maybe they're undecided now. Maybe they were Trump curious, and now the verdict's making them question things, but they're still not ready. Maybe they're thinking about voting for RFK Junior now, and you can convince them to vote for Joe Biden. Either way, Votesave America will have stuff for you to do. So go ahead. Votesave america.com 2024. Sign up and everyone else. Have a fantastic weekend and we'll all see you next week.

Dan Pfeiffer
Bye everyone.

Speaker B
If you want to get ad free episodes, exclusive content, and more, consider joining our friends of the Pod subscription community@Crooked.com. friends and if you're already doom scrolling, don't forget to follow us at Pod Save America on Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content, and more. Plus, if you're as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review. Pod Save America America is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Olivia Martinez and David Toledo. Our associate producers are Sol Rubin and Farah Safari. Kira Joachim is our senior producer, Reed Shurlin is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis writing support by Hallie Kiefer. Madeleine Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt DeGroote is our head of production, Andy Taft as our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Mia Kellman, David Toles, Kiril Pallaviv, and Molly Lobel.

Laura Loomer
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The MAGA Plot to Jail Democrats

Primary Topic

Episode Summary

Main Takeaways

Episode Chapters

1: Introduction and Overview

2: The Legal Landscape

3: Voter Impact

Actionable Advice

About This Episode

People

Companies

Books

Guest Name(s):

Content Warnings:

Transcript