Kissing Rings and Killing Puppies

Speaker A
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Speaker B
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Speaker C
Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

Speaker D
I'm Jon Lovett.

Speaker B
I'm Tommy Vitor.

Speaker C
On today's show, politicians in both parties get involved in the battle over the Gaza protests on college campuses. More republicans who've criticized Trump fall in line. And Christy nome is not sorry for murdering puppies.

Speaker D
Proud of it. Puppy maybe more.

Speaker C
We don't know.

Speaker D
Yeah, she got the taste for blood, that's for sure.

Speaker C
But first, let's talk about the state of the race. We got Donald Trump, criminal defendant, who can't seem to stay awake or stop complaining about the temperature of the courtroom. And then we got Joe Biden. He's out there cracking jokes, taking shots at Trump, sitting down with Howard Stern and pissing off the New York Times by not sitting down for an interview with them. Though the Times did write a favorable story about Biden's strategy here, noting that the campaign wants the split screens comparison between the two candidates and that the president is very much trying to get under Trump's skin by taunting him and calling him a loser.

What do you guys think of that strategy and how it's impacting coverage of the race? Any risks? Tommy?

Speaker B
Sure. I would like to note that our office was once very cold and I stand in solidarity with my president.

Speaker D
Wow.

Speaker C
I think it still goes back and forth a lot, but it does go back and forth. Possible. Anyway, that's our problem.

Speaker B
On the tone thing, I do think it's kind of a fine line. I think it's good to be funny. It's good to crack jokes, it's good to get in the news. But ultimately, Biden's kind of founding ethos was restoring the soul of a nation and being the one who can unite a divided country. So you have to be careful that you don't overstep that. I did talk to some folks on the Biden team who felt like that Times article was a bit overstated. They were like, we're doing some message events this week. Some things are going to be rolling out policies in battleground states. Sometimes we're going to do contrast events where we attack Trump.

It's kind of the standard, was their thought.

Speaker D
But, yeah, first of all, this is, it was a month ago, though. I know we, a month ago was forever ago that we first got wind that this was Biden directed. Remember that? Like, I think NBC reported that Biden was, wanted to kind of start picking fights to kind of get under Trump's skin and sort of to immediate effect that Trump started responding almost instantly to every time Biden kind of laid an insult. I like it. I actually, we'll talk about the correspondence then or later. But I was surprised by some of the places Biden went. Like, he hasn't made those kinds of jokes before. He went a little harder than I expected.

Speaker B
Sharp.

Speaker D
And I like it. I just, I like it.

Speaker C
I think that trading too many insults can be annoying and silly to voters. I also think in this media environment, you really don't have any other choice.

He's not gonna be able to reach voters that he needs to reach if he just gives speeches about the Chips act.

Yeah. With polite contrasts. Right. You know, that's his biggest challenge. That's the campaign's biggest challenge, is actually reaching and communicating with voters who have mostly tuned out of politics are consuming a lot less political media than they used to. And the Biden campaign gets this. I talked to Rob Flaherty, their deputy campaign manager, who ran digital strategy in the White House on offline this week. Check it out. And. And he said the same thing. He said, this is all of their thinking about every day is just a lot of people tuned out of politics, and how do you break through and actually get them?

Speaker B
And Biden kind of gets asked about this in the smart list interview, whether this was a deliberate change to mix it up and punch back harder. And his response is basically like, well, we're responding to what Trump is already doing and we're trying to respond with facts, but we can't match the Trump show. And I think that is another risk with Trump.

There's no bottom for Trump. He will say the nastiest things about you and will take it further than you ever can.

Speaker C
Suddenly you're Marco Rubio making dick chokes. Exactly.

Speaker B
Exactly.

Speaker D
And you don't want to be that. Yeah. I do also think there's a difference between.

Speaker C
You might end up being vp shoreless.

Speaker D
You got to move. You got to move. I do think there's also a difference between the shortlist. Hey, hey.

Speaker B
Sorry.

Speaker D
I do think there's also a difference between how Biden. Biden is now a candidate. He is campaigning. And I think that is different than how he is in his official remarks. I also, by the way, expect that Joe Biden will continue to make a certain subset of online libs mad by praising republicans every chance he possibly gets. And I think isolating Trump as worthy of mockery while saying there are many good republicans, like the kind of rhetoric he's been using in the past is a great way to kind of, I think, make Tommy's point while still trying to get under Trump's skin.

Speaker C
Yeah.

Speaker B
Matt Gaetz. Fun to party with.

Don't agree with him politically.

Speaker C
So the media strategy of reaching voters by going around traditional news outlets is something candidates and campaigns have been doing for more than a decade now, though there has been some recent drama between Biden world and the Times after a Politico piece about how the paper's mad the president won't do an interview with them. We don't have to get into all the drama. Probably most of you haven't heard about it.

Speaker D
Hopefully you die without knowing about it.

Speaker C
God bless you if you haven't. But from a campaign perspective, how do you guys think about the balance between doing traditional and non traditional media interviews?

Speaker D
First of all, I remember I wanted to play this clip because this reminded me of a story. I couldn't actually find the original story, but we have a clip, and this is from 2004, when George W. Bush went on Roland Martin's fishing show. Can we play that clip, Roland, at a fishing show? Different Roland Martin.

Speaker B
Oh, boo.

Speaker D
Little bitty guy hitting it.

Speaker C
I came out to fish with a fellow who works out here. We caught a bunch of crappie. We fileted them, cooked them, and served dinner to Vicente Fox, the president of Mexico.

Speaker B
What is that?

Speaker D
So 2004?

It is George W. Bush appearing on outdoor life television on a phishing channel. And it was part of a story in 2004 about republican micro targeting that republicans were gonna go find. They were gonna go around the traditional media to go find voters. And as part of this worked. It did work well. And then. And he went on ESPN, which was a big deal at the time, and Kerry countered that by throwing out a pitch, which I'm sure went terribly.

Speaker C
Remember, Tommy, in the Senate office when Obama went on Monday night football? Oh, yeah, that was a big deal. That was fun.

Speaker B
I still don't think Bill Clinton should have played the saxophone that one time.

Speaker C
And this is such an old debate.

Speaker D
Saxophone, right? It was the boxers of briefs things. Remember, Bill Clinton had the word boxers of briefs.

Speaker B
I mean, doing Howard Stern is, like, unequivocally smart. Stern gets 10 million listeners per episode. Then they chop it up on YouTube, and many, many more people will see it there. It'll live on social media. And it was like, more interesting content. It was about stories about his life and deeper things.

Speaker C
I can always tell when something breaks through. When the normies in my life, like my college text chain, people were like, wait, did you hear Biden on stern? Biden was good on stern. And I'm like, wait, we haven't talked about politics here in a while. No. Yeah.

Speaker D
Also, Howard Stern has just sort of.

He has left the kind of. He has no footprint in the media because he's just. He's his own ecosystem. He doesn't care that much. The clips don't really go that far. Very rarely, anyway. But, you know, it's reaching just a huge audience of people that aren't paying attention.

Speaker C
I also think doing interviews with, like, traditional network news television. Right. Like, that's, I think that's worthwhile because you reach a lot of people like print interviews. Right. You know, look, if it's maybe a little more useful to the campaign if the outlet in question releases the full transcript of the interview, which they all probably do now, but, like, I don't know if your candidate time is, like, the most precious resource you have on the campaign, and if it's between giving a print interview to an outlet like the New York Times, that, again, is mostly Biden voters reading that. I don't know if that's the best use of time versus a whole bunch of other creative interviews with different outlets that people who aren't political junkies are consuming.

Speaker D
Yeah, I feel like I don't, I think I agree with that.

My only thought on it is that Biden has a specific challenge. I mean, there's a reason that Trump thinks there's value to pretending Joe Biden won't debate him because it feeds a republican argument that Joe Biden is not up to debate. Joe Biden has faced, obviously, a lot of questions around his age and his kind of ability to do the job. And so as long as he is doing enough press in traditional sources to kind of relieve that pressure and demonstrate that he's quite capable of doing interviews, including very hard hitting interviews, print, television, I don't think it matters.

Speaker C
I think that's the distinction. It's less like traditional versus non traditional than tough questions versus all softballs for the whole campaign. Right.

Speaker B
I mean, I think if you have something big that you want to roll out to kind of an elite audience. Right. If you signed a Middle east peace deal, absolutely. Sit down with newer times.

Speaker D
Let's get them on hot ones. Let's get them on hot ones.

Speaker B
Conan's interview really set a high bar. But I mean, just like sitting down for a 45 Minutes interview with the Times or another print publication to just get the shit kicked out of you, you might as well.

Speaker D
Three days of stories. Three days of stories.

Speaker C
NBC, in their latest poll today, they just ran a story they broke out.

Which candidate is preferred based on news consumption? Biden's biggest advantage over Trump is with voters who get their news from newspapers. 70% are for Biden versus 21% for Trump.

Speaker D
Yeah.

Speaker C
And then he also has a big advantage with voters who get their news from network news and from digital websites. His biggest deficit with voters is voters who don't follow political news. Trump leads those voters 53 to 27 people who get their news from YouTube and Google. It's 55 39, Trump cable, 53 45, social media, 46 42. A little closer on those two.

Speaker A
Yeah.

Speaker B
I mean, there's a long story in Politico about this fight between the times and the Biden people. But the part that mattered was this weird background quote that said, ag Sulzberger, the publisher, is mad that Biden hasn't done an interview and therefore is quietly encouraging all his reporters to write meaner stories about Biden's age. And I read that and my reaction was, wow, that's a dumb thing to say. So dumb, even on background. But also, I kind of doubt that it's true. And I reached out to some former times people and they were like, that's not how the building works in my experience. Maybe there's senior editors passing around notes that the journalists themselves don't hear about, but I doubt it. So I think it was a dumb quote to give. And then it was very weird that the Times escalated it by putting out a statement on the record attacking Joe Biden again and again. It's like your media outlet, partisan political actors, put out statements attacking each other. So don't do that. That's very weird, very strange. The whole thing was just odd.

Speaker D
You'll all share a cell if Trump wins. Yeah, everybody should be nice to each other.

Speaker B
That is very true.

You know, it's not good for democrats, I think, to run down the credibility of the media generally. I'm not saying that's what the Biden people were doing, but you know that there's a lot of that online these days.

Speaker C
Yeah, two things can be true. Like, I think the Times is great, and I don't think it's their job to save democracy. But I also think that from a campaign perspective, when you're figuring out strategy and where your candidate's gonna go, like, you get to choose which interviews they do and don't do, and you gotta do it in the way that's smart for your campaign and it's gonna make it most successful. Yeah.

Speaker D
I mean, the only thing that I still, I feel like is just truly an unknown is, like, what is the translation? Like, okay, a lot of people aren't gonna see, no one's gonna see the politico story about the times being furious of the Biden administration. And that's for nobody. It's a really small group of people.

Biden does a television interview. Mostly people that support him are the people that are gonna see it. Biden does a print interview, even fewer people that don't support him are going to see it. But I still think there is this effect, right, that, like, the coverage in these places filters down into the conversations people have. It filters down into how he's covered, how it, how it affects what ends up on TikTok, what ends up on YouTube, what ends up in people's text, change in people's conversation, what questions Howard Stern asks, what questions the smartest guys ask because those guys are paying attention. And so, like, that kind of like trickle down, I don't totally understand. I don't think anybody fully understands how much of that is still working because that used to be whatever. Like, that was always the assumption and now I don't know.

Speaker C
Well, biggest news out of the Howard Stern interview was Biden saying he'd be happy to debate Trump and expects to at some point. This made Trump and his campaign quite happy, apparently. Chris Lysevita, Trump's top aide, was at the correspondents dinner handing out business cards with Biden's debate quote from Stern. And then on the other side had a Trump quote, was, Trump's response to this was anywhere, anytime, any place. And then it said, let's set it up. And there was an email for the Trump press office, I guess, got him. Yeah. Sounds like they're pretty eager to debate. Should they be?

Speaker B
Yeah, well, it's funny, we've kind of memory holed the fact that the last time they debated, Donald Trump had gotten a positive COVID diagnosis three days earlier and nearly gave it to Joe Biden on stage and maybe could have killed him.

Yeah, it's funny how sort of forgot about it.

Speaker C
Biden killed the debate. Trump almost killed Biden.

Speaker B
I mean, I think the interesting thing about this debate is normally you have a challenger coming in that has just done a ton of reps because they were in a primary process and they were debating, debating, debating. So they're really, like, poised and ready for the fight. And you have an incumbent president who has not been debating and in fact, is used to people standing up when they walk into the room and not getting a lot of pushback this time. Trump skipped all the primary debates, so he's going to be just as rusty as Joe Biden. The whole thing broadly makes me nervous because the stakes are just going to be through the roof on this debate if it happens. But again, much like the State of the Union, the Trump folks are giving Biden an expectations advantage by accusing him of having dementia every day.

Speaker C
Just going out on a limb. I don't think the Biden campaign is going to have trouble lowering expectations.

Speaker B
No, they're low.

Speaker C
They're low. They're pretty low.

Speaker D
Yeah.

That debate, too, even before we knew that Trump was trying to kill Joe Biden was the worst debate any of us have ever seen. It was a monstrous and disappointing display that made everyone quite sad while having really that much of an impact on the race. So I expect something like that is probably where we're heading. That's the media. And I don't know what's above or below that.

Speaker B
I don't either.

Speaker C
I do think that the Biden folks are going to want to leave it to the commission and get out of these potential one on one negotiations with the Trump campaign who are going to ask for 100 debates and Trump's gonna start asking for his own favorite moderators. And you don't want the whole thing to turn into an episode of the Apprentice.

So now there's a commission for this. You send it to the commission, you do your normal number debates, and that's that because you can tell that Trump is just like, chomping at the bit to turn this into a big show where he has a debate every week.

Speaker B
Yeah, it's a lot of bravado, though. But I'm sure then he'll come back around with, but only these moderators are acceptable. And it's like Tucker and Sean Hannity and Don Junior.

Speaker D
I think assuming if you compromises Ed.

Speaker C
Henry, I mean, even before you get.

Speaker D
To it, whatever he six choir, he knows the show's, the show's not whatever the show. Yeah, sure, he'd want the biggest show possible, but even before that, what he wants is every conversation about what the debates will look like is a story of Trump wanting to debate and him pulling Joe Biden to those debates. And the Biden campaign can't have that either. That's the show, right? That's the show. The debates are three days in October. That show can happen for the next several months.

Speaker C
Yeah. Until both campaigns agreed that the commission's gonna do what they've done for the last however many years. Like, that's the only thing Biden campaign can say. Right? Like, they can't, they can't take the bait on this and be like, yeah, no, okay, we'll do whatever you want. We'll meet you anytime soon.

Speaker D
No, of course not. Of course not. But that's just what this is, right?

Speaker C
Yeah. Speaking of the White House correspondents center, Joe Biden and SNL's Colin Jost both told, I think some really funny jokes. Let's listen to a few. Here's some abidance.

Speaker E
The 2024 election is in full swing. And yes, age is an issue.

I'm a grown man running against a six year old. The New York Times issued a statement blasting me for, quote, active and effectively avoiding independent journalists. Hey, if that's what it takes to get the New York Times to say I'm active and effective, I'm for it. I had a great stretch since the State of the union. Well, Donald has had a few tough days lately. You might call it stormy weather.

What the hell?

Eight years ago, you could have written off it was just Trump talk. But no longer, not after January 6.

I'm sincerely not asking of you to take sides, but asking to rise up to the seriousness of the moment.

Speaker C
Honestly, the, what the hell?

Speaker D
What the hell is my favorite part of the whole?

Speaker C
What the hell is the funniest part?

Speaker D
What the hell is really funny?

Speaker C
That is actually, though, the, I think that's the right way to approach humor for this race. And Biden did this in 2020. I think he did it during that debate. At one point was just like, shut up. He said something to trump like, what is this? What's going on with this guy?

Speaker D
Yeah.

Speaker C
Like, there is an absurdity around this whole. Yeah. That I think that Biden can make fun of, but his speeches are so.

Speaker B
Short for these things. That was like ten minutes.

Speaker C
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker D
It was very short. It was mostly serious. He does a few jokes at the top and then he gets to the serious part.

Speaker C
I think that's wise.

Speaker B
There's like a half dozen jokes and he gets right to it.

Speaker D
Yeah, I like the serious part. I like the praising of Collins.

He did a whole nice thing about Colin Jost's family, which I thought was very, very good for Biden. I liked the, I thought it was a good imposition to the journalists.

Speaker C
The New York Times joke was funny.

Speaker D
Yes.

Speaker C
And he could have gotten to snippy and instead he sort of made fun of himself a little bit there.

Speaker D
I was actually, like, I was genuinely surprised by how well that joke did I really, I was actually, the crowd really liked it. And we've sort of, you know, over the years, like, I think we've come to learn that that audience is less keyed in than you'd expect a lot of the time, but not on journalism stuff. They were, that room was completely fully aware of the fight.

Speaker C
They read the Politico story and then the responding New York Times statement to the Politico story. And then the puck story about how the Politico story happened with the new.

Speaker D
Yeah, they were all ready. They were ready for that joke. I was suggesting.

Speaker B
They tend to be very sensitive to anything media related.

Speaker C
Yeah, that is also true. That is also true. All right, here's some of the jokes from Colin.

Colin Jost
Just, I have to admit, it's not easy following President Biden. I mean, it's not always easy following what he's saying.

Can we just acknowledge how refreshing it is to, to see a president of the United States at an event that doesn't begin with a bailiff saying, all rise.

It's also wonderful to be back in Washington. I love being in Washington. The last time I was in DC, I left my cocaine at the White House.

Luckily, the president was able to put it to good use for his State of the union.

I lost my grandfather this year, as you alluded to, of a firefighter, William Kelly.

And I swear, mister president, this is not an age comparison.

You remind me of him.

Some of your best qualities remind me of his.

And I will say he was 95 and he was still great at stairs.

I think it's because, because he didn't try to run up them.

He voted for you. And the reason that he voted for you is because you're a decent man.

Speaker C
Bring that guy on the road.

Speaker D
Yeah, I like that. I really like that.

Speaker C
That was a nice little endorsement.

Speaker D
Yeah, I know. There was like, I guess the times just unhappy with everyone on that day wrote a piece saying they didn't think he was successful. I think that he times with that.

Speaker C
Piece and then like, every Biden White House official wrote back and be like, he was the funniest person ever.

Speaker D
And I'm like, now this is the Biden jost 2024.

But I thought the, I think that, like, the first half, like, there were good jokes, but they were kind of, it was, it was like, I think it took a while to ramp up, but that second half I thought was just like really excellent. And that mo, like, I do think, like, if there's any value to that dinner in terms of like, the intro beseeching the press that the president, and then what Colin Jost did is that in some small way, I think, like, reminding them that even the ones that I think don't believe it is their job to save democracy for Joe Biden, reminding them that, like, their actual values and morals are at stake and they are aware of them, even if they try to push them aside. I just, I appreciate that. Whether it's effective or not, I don't know. I appreciate it.

Speaker C
Yeah. It's not their job to save democracy. It is their job to take this whole thing seriously and not treat it completely as a game all the time. I think that's a fair criticism.

Speaker B
Yeah, it was a nice ending from Colin Joe. It was a bit of an endorsement vibe, which doesn't help the kind of clubby liberal bias in the media sentiment that's out there.

Speaker C
I'll take anything but big show.

Speaker B
I mean, I thought Colin Joe's did a pretty good job of being hard on both of them and making fun of both of them. And Biden, to his credit, laughed and took it.

Speaker C
He did. He did. He left a lot. Two quick housekeeping notes. Some very exciting news from our friends at strict scrutiny, cricket's excellent legal podcast. The show just launched its own YouTube channel. To subscribe, just type strict scrutiny into your nearest YouTube search bar and tune in for new episodes every Monday.

Also, if you need a break from the political chaos, treat yourself to some completely different political chaos over on Pod save the UK. Each week, Nishkumar and Coco Khan are joined by politicians and experts to unpack the latest news out of parliament. New episodes drop every Thursday. Make sure to follow wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker A
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Speaker B
That.

Speaker C
Does the political news cycle make you want to scream, cry, and maybe throw up? Pods of America is going on tour to help you make sense of what's going on in 2024. No matter where you live the democracy or else tour, we'll be heading all over the country to cities like Brooklyn, Boston, Madison, Phoenix, Philadelphia, Ann Arbor and more. And for long term scream barf protection, get the vip ticket bundle that includes a signed copy of our new book, democracy or else how to save America in ten easy steps. So you can take us with you wherever you go. See all the tour dates and get your tickets now@cricket.com. Events quick before they sell out onto a topic thats less fun. But more important, the college protests over the war in Gaza after the president of Columbia University testified before Congress and then called the police on April 18 to clear out an encampment of pro palestinian protesters that led to more than 100 arrests. Dozens of protests and encampments have sprung up at colleges all across the country. Many of the protesters have been peaceful and respectful. Some of the protesters have not. Many schools have allowed the protests to continue. Some have not. There have been more than 800 arrests so far, a mix of students and non students. Some police have used excessive force to break up the protests. Some colleges have suspended students and threatened expulsion. And now politicians in both parties are getting involved. President Biden has condemned both, quote, anti semitic protests and quote, those who don't understand what's going on with the Palestinians.

The White House also condemned one of the student protest leaders at Columbia who called for zionist to die and has since been suspended. Donald Trump posted an all caps truth on Monday that said, stop the protests now.

Easy. Done.

Speaker Mike Johnson held an event at Columbia with other House Republicans last week where they called on Biden to send in the National Guard and threatened to pull federal funding from college. That won't stop the protests. Progressive Democrats like AOC and Jamal Bowman have visited the protesters in solidarity, while 21 other Democrats just sent a letter to Colombia demanding that they break up the protests, which they are currently trying to do. Basically. Huge mess.

Tommy, I thought you and Ben did a great job last week on Pod save the world, talking about what's going on with these protests. I would encourage everyone to listen. I thought we could talk a bit about how they're affecting national politics.

Here's the latest headline in the Washington Post.

Trump GOP sees on campus protests to depict chaos under Biden. What's your take on that? And what do you guys think is the best way for Biden and Democrats to handle all this?

Speaker B
I mean, I do think the chaos message from Trump about Biden is a little bit of a mad libs at this point. You know, it's usually it's the border. Sometimes it's just liberal cities generally.

Speaker C
Just cities being cities.

Speaker B
Yeah. So cities being cities.

Speaker D
So, you know, you had somebody stole Schiff's bags out of his car?

Speaker C
No.

Speaker D
Adam Shift, I literally saw it because I watched a Sean Hannity clip. That's the only reason I found out my feed wouldn't tell me that.

Speaker B
Lock your car, shifty shift.

I think.

Weird. I think Trump is right to think that any issue that divides the Democratic Party or suppresses democratic votes could be beneficial to him. I don't know if that's happening right now. I mean, I suspect a lot of the protesters, at least at the New York schools, aren't necessarily Democrats. A lot of people don't, you know, they don't affiliate, not affiliated with the party or they're in the DSA. Certainly they're part of the democratic coalition that you'd like to see turn out for Joe Biden to defeat Donald Trump. It's also not really clear to me if this issue is broken through to the country more broadly. I think if you're a Fox News consumer, you are probably marinating in this feeling that, like, campuses are overrun and Hamas is on the, you know, protesting in Colombia or whatever. But I do think Biden has been, I think it's right to condemn anti semitism where it's popping up and when it's been egregious. But you have to be really, really careful, I think, not to cross the line into abridging free speech, which is why, you know, Speaker Johnson going up to Columbia to kind of demagogue what's happening makes me really nervous. It's why Democrats sending that letter to the president of Colombia makes me nervous because there is a very fraught debate about where anti Zionism constitute antisemitism that we can get into more if we want here. So I think bigger picture for me from a political perspective, what makes me far more nervous is the prospect of this war continuing for months and months and months through the conventions, through the election, and not campus protests in April.

From a political sense, yeah.

Speaker D
I mean, you know, denounce anti Semitism and violence, defend the right to peacefully protest, point out that all of these Republicans spent years denouncing snowflakes and trigger warnings, but are now cynically inserting themselves into campus rules and procedures of private northeastern universities in order to stoke chaos and shut down speech that they don't like. I'd be pointing that out. And then it's like, should Columbia students be suspended after two warnings or three? What is the line between anti Zionism and anti Semitism?

What is the speaker's lineup at the USC commencement? These are important questions for some people. They are not important questions for the speaker of the house. They're not important questions for national politics. And they are ultimately a distraction and a distraction with purpose.

It's such a, like, it's such a classic.

It's so classic us. It's like there is a devastating and awful war taking place in Gaza. I am sure that I disagree with a lot of the larger goals of many, if not most of the students on those campuses, but they have been very successful at drawing attention to what is an urgent international crisis. They have done it with bravery. They've put themselves at risk. They may pay for that risk. It seems like when you put yourself in a position to draw attention by breaking rules, you will also draw attention when those rules are enforced, which seems to me ought to be the goal from the very beginning.

Most Democrats agree that there is an urgent need for there to be a ceasefire. Most have said that even if you believe Israel has a right to defend itself, that it is right to be critical about the inhumane way in which Israel has conducted this war. And I think any way in which you can just call out the republican kind of cynicism on this while being unabashed in asserting your position, denouncing anti Semitism while defending the right to protest, I think is a fine place to be without getting dragged into the muck that these Republicans want to drag us into.

Speaker C
They're so opportunistic on this. It's so cynical. I mean, it's like they don't believe in free speech. They believe in right wing free speech. They don't believe in speaking out against anti semitism. They believe in speaking out against left wing anti Semitism. Right. When it comes from the right. Trump was out there over the weekend, forgot about this. This is called Charlottesville. A little peanut.

Weird thing to say. I think he meant small peanuts compared to this. But he said, he said it's nothing compared to the kind of hate you have here. Charlottesville, where, you know, literal Nazis. Literal Nazis.

Speaker B
Car was killed.

Speaker C
Yeah, yeah. Woman was killed. Right. Greg Abbott in Texas, he just sent in police, committed all kinds of excessive violence and excessive force.

And he only did it. And he basically said he only did it because he didn't believe with the protests. It wasn't about how they were protesting, it's about why they were protesting. Right. That's what Greg Abbott did. Right. So I think the Republicans are bullshit. I think as a Democrat, you're right. You have to stand up for the right to protest and the right to free speech. And especially, like you said, the most important thing is there is a horrific war in Gaza. And if you believe that the war should end and you're not getting anywhere right near congressman or posting about it, like, yeah, go out and protest, you should, it's good. I do think you also have to speak out against violence, intimidation, threatening behavior. I really think you have to speak out against antisemitism, just as you have to speak out against any form of religious ethnic bigotry.

And I do think that either dismissing or minimizing anti semitism, the kind that's been seen and heard in some of these protests, it isn't just wrong. It detracts from the more urgently important argument about the israeli government's conduct in Gaza. Cause I do think there is this tendency to be like, obviously anti Semitism is bad, but. Right. And then you just sort of like, pass over it. And when you really look like, we don't have to quantify how much, what percentage it is or whatever else, like, it could be just a small group. Whatever it is, when you see it, you call it out. It's bad, it's horrific, it's garbage.

Speaker D
Well, I think the issue.

Speaker C
Right.

Speaker D
I think what happens, and some of.

Speaker C
It is, and you're right, the anti Zionism, anti Semitism line is thin here. But, like, Jews go back to Poland, is like. That's pretty clear.

Speaker D
Yes.

I think the reason. I think what you see right is like, this desire to say that, but is a desire to identify yourself not just with your own views or the views of the protests you agree with, but with the protests themselves. But, like, there's always going to be a protest is always going to represent a vast array of different views. And again, like.

Speaker C
But like, even if you disagree with.

Speaker D
The vast majority of the larger. Like, even if you. The proximate cause of these protests is the war in Gaza. But the BDS movement long precedes it and is not just about attacking. Right. Like at Yale, they're. They're calling for divestment from companies directly profiting off the war. But a lot of these protests are calling for larger divestments that really are meant to attack the legitimacy of Israel itself. A lot of people find that important. A lot of people disagree with that strongly. I disagree with that.

Speaker B
Right.

Speaker D
But I still think you can.

Speaker C
If they want to do it, if.

Speaker D
That'S what they believe. That's what they believe. I agree with these protests is that they are doing something brave to call attention to what is the current emergency, which is doing whatever we can to push the administration and to push for a ceasefire, which is what the actual crisis is. The crisis is not the performance of our feelings or desires or politics in the United States. It is all about a real and ongoing struggle and war.

Speaker C
I will say this, though. The guy who was one of the leaders of the encampment in Colombia, one of the students who was leading the protest in January is at a disciplinary meeting where he says, you're lucky I'm not out there murdering Zionists. You're lucky I'm not just killing them. And then that was in January, and then the video got resurfaced by some right wing asshole. Right. Which is how we all know about it. But, like, what? They didn't feel the need to discipline him then and he still was the leader of the movement. That's just bad. It's just bad. It's not about divestment. That's all totally legitimate, even if you disagree with it. That's bullshit.

He shouldn't have been the protest leader.

Speaker B
Well, you need clear rules of the road on policy. These schools need clear rules of the road and policies, and they need to enforce them equally, no matter who is the speaker, no matter what the circumstances. The broader challenge for protest movements and social movements like this is you have a core goal, which is to end the war in Gaza. And you have this huge movement of people with different views and differing perspectives. Some are more maximalist, some are more scoped. Inevitably, the conversation is going to become about the tactics or offensive things being said. And the question always is, if you're part of this movement, how do you keep the focus on that core goal, which is getting to a permanent ceasefire, getting a negotiated hostage release and ending.

Speaker C
The war in Gaza. Right.

Speaker B
And so I do think, you know, that's incumbent on everyone who's at the protests to make sure you're, you know, whatever you're doing is advancing that core goal.

But it's also kind of the risk inherent in the well.

Speaker C
And it requires incredible discipline. And it also requires, like, letting go of the fiction that you can control. Like you said, everyone in the movement.

Speaker B
Right.

Speaker C
There's a lot of leaders in there who are probably like, yeah, of course this is the right message. This is the best effective tactic. And then you have, like, a couple people who either join from outside or join from the campus who, you know, say something stupid and say something horrible and anti semitic, and then that gets lifted up and it sucks.

Speaker D
Yeah. I'd say, first of all, the flip side of republicans spending years calling Lib snowflakes, then calling for protests to be shut down, is campuses reacting to anti semitism differently than they react to other kinds of hate. And that is, I think, when you have a student saying something like that and they're not being consequences until it becomes an embarrassing public spectacle, I think that tells you something about not having policies that are clearly enforced. But I also think this is in many ways, an unsolvable problem that will be with us. I am sure that if we had the kind of social media we have now, when there were anti war protests that, again, were completely justified and in hindsight, prescient. When George W. Bush was invading Iraq, we would find despicable views among those protests. We did find despicable views among those protests, but now it would be everywhere. And it would have been used if we had TikTok and Instagram and Twitter and social media that we have now. When those protests were going on, it would have been used to delegitimize what was ultimately a righteous protest movement against that war. I don't know what the answer is, but, like, I will say that this.

Speaker C
Is an interesting one where I think the public opinion, the tide, public opinion against the war in Gaza turned long before these latest protests incidents. I mean, the inciting incident for what we're talking about now was this. April 18, Columbia University president goes to Congress, testifies, has the police come, and then suddenly there are these solidarity protests all over the place. So it is. This is an interesting one where the public opinion changes first, because I think some of the very brave reporting about what was happening on the ground in Gaza and that probably, I think, shaped public opinion more than these protests.

Speaker B
Yeah, I mean, look, this is a very familiar problem. In 1968, anti war movements at Columbia University had people chanting in support of the Viet Cong.

Speaker C
Right.

Speaker B
So there will always be views expressed to protests that we don't agree with, I think.

Speaker D
And by the way, there will always be 20 year old idiots who deserve the chance to grow as well, or.

Speaker B
80 year old idiots. I think what we're seeing, though, I think is the result of a festering problem that no one can figure out how to make go away, which is the war in Gaza. And it's like, I don't know.

Speaker C
People are.

Speaker B
When. Day after day, when you're seeing reports of, like, another hundred, another thousand people died, and it feels like the government isn't doing enough to stop this war, people are gonna take increasingly drastic action.

Speaker C
And also, if you feel that way and you see news coverage that's all about, like, protests and how they're going wrong, it's gonna make you angrier. Rightly so. Right. Because, like, it was like we. You know, we haven't talked about this yet, but, like, the. The real issue is the war. It's not these protests, but the. But it's gonna. This is what. This is what happens in politics now that all the politicians are involved.

Speaker B
It's become a bigger my initial reaction when reading about the protests was I just felt like, okay, like credit to the protesters, I support you. I support your goal. I wonder if sit in on campus is the most effective way to raise awareness about the concern. Like, why not go, you know, stage a sit in in Congress or go to the White House? That was sort of like my initial instinct. But now, because these universities crack down on these kids so hard and the arrests were so brutal and unnecessary, the protests have spread and it's increasing solidarity and you're seeing more of it. And now it is this nationwide story. So it has been effective.

Speaker D
And by the way, and just in terms of what the impact is of the conduct of the war on our politics, you now have people that are horrified by what they see unfolding in Gaza being drawn into a movement that isn't just about ending this conflict, but about attacking the larger legitimacy of Israel as a state, right? That is, I think, a dangerous ramification of people rightfully seeing this unfold and thinking something has gone terribly wrong and wanting the Biden administration to do more, wanting this to end, feeling like they're helpless or feeling like they want to have some voice in it.

Speaker B
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Speaker C
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Finally, before we go, quite a few republican politicians proved over the weekend that their party is just as weird and cultish as ever.

Some beclown themselves when they were asked how they squared their past criticism of Trump with their current support for the guy. And one of Trump's potential running mates is making an unusual pitch for herself. Here's Bill Barr, Lindsey Graham, Mitch McConnell, and a story about Christy Noem.

Speaker B
I actually don't remember him saying executing, but I wouldn't dispute it. You know, I mean, it doesn't sound the president would lose his temper and say things like that. I doubt he would have actually carried it out.

Speaker C
I don't, you know, you're going to.

Speaker A
Vote for someone who is facing 88 criminal counts.

Speaker B
Well, look, the 88 criminal counts, a lot of those are, and I've said.

Speaker C
Even if ten of them are accurate.

Speaker B
The answer to the question is yes. I'm supporting, I'm supporting the republican ticket.

Speaker D
David Pecker, who ran the national Enquirer's.

Speaker A
Parent company, testified that he paid to catch and kill stories about Trump specifically to help his presidential campaign.

You don't have any concerns about that?

Speaker C
You know, apparently a lot of people do this. Arnold Schwarzenegger, Tiger woods.

Speaker D
No, I think the whole thing is a crock.

Speaker C
The issue is what kind of influence? Even if I had chosen to get involved in the presidential election, what kind.

Speaker E
Of influence would I have had?

Speaker D
You're one of the most powerful Republicans.

Speaker C
I'm the republican leader of the Senate.

Speaker E
What we do here is try to make law.

I like us to be in the majority.

Speaker A
This morning, South Dakota governor Christy Noem, considered to be in the running to become former President Trump's pick for vice president, is responding to the backlash over a story in her upcoming memoir. In the book, Noem says she shot and killed her 14 month old puppy named Cricket for bad behavior. Conservative media personality Laura Loomer saying she can't be vp now. You can't shoot your dog and then be vp.

Speaker B
Hard to argue that.

Speaker C
An unapologetic puppy killer. Safe to say she's off the shortlist.

Speaker D
Guys, I just don't know what it's like to live on a farm. It's just you got to kill puppies. They're always killing puppies. You ever read Charlotte's web?

Most of that book is about killing puppies.

Speaker C
Old Yeller, he got it.

Speaker D
Well, he's old.

Speaker B
It's in the name.

I mean, what's amazing.

Speaker C
He's a new yeller.

Speaker B
Thank you, John.

Speaker C
This didn't come out because of some.

Speaker B
Investigative journalist pouring through her life. She wrote it in her own book. Yeah, that is the amazing part.

Speaker C
That's why the whole, like, you don't know what it's like to live on a farm thing is just.

That has nothing to do with anything. You bragged about it. Hillary Clinton wrote a book called hard.

Speaker B
Choices that was about, like, negotiating with North Korea and shit. This woman thinks that hurt her.

Speaker C
Yeah.

Speaker D
When Hillary Clinton kills a dog, she keeps it to her fucking self.

She forgets politics.

Speaker C
That's the difference.

Speaker B
Christy nom thinks her mettle is proven by murdering a puppy and then was so inspired by the results that she.

Speaker C
Went and got a goat.

Speaker B
She hated and shot the goat, but missed the first time and had to.

Speaker C
Walk back to her car to get.

Speaker B
Another shotgun shell to shoot the goat again. You're not even a good shot. You suffered a bit.

Speaker C
This is some John Wick shit.

Speaker B
It's really bad also. I mean, yeah, I would say this.

Speaker D
It has not been a good week for Christy nome.

That the combination of basically saying that she doesn't believe in exceptions for rape and incest, followed by saying she murdered a puppy for not being good at killing birds one day and then being too good at killing birds the next day, that's the other piece of this. So the dog wasn't good on a pheasant hunt, wouldn't hunt right. Then the next day tried to kill some chickens. Maybe it was trying, you know?

Speaker C
Right. Giving a chance.

Speaker B
Michelle Vick.

Speaker C
Michelle Vic. I did like that.

Speaker B
In the arms of an asshole. I went with that, too.

Speaker C
You've been churning out some great content on this. Content in the war between the Dakotas for who's going to get the nod from Trump? Doug Bergam. Now North Dakota is just now edging out South Dakota because apparently Doug Bergam is climbing up the list.

Trump's shortlist. Because I guess he's boring, loyal and absurdly rich. And Trump needs money.

Speaker B
He can write a big check to himself.

Speaker C
Yeah. Who would have thought that was coming? Doug Bergam over Christy nome.

Speaker B
He's perfect.

Speaker C
I would not have guessed that. I would not have guessed that.

Speaker D
Say that dog don't hunt.

Speaker C
I mean, that dog don't.

Speaker D
That dog don't hunt. That dog don't hunt.

Speaker B
Dog don't hunt.

Speaker D
That dog don't hunt.

Speaker C
Okay. Okay.

Speaker D
I do think that it's dead. Cause she murdered it in a ditch.

Dead in a ditch in front of.

Speaker B
Some construction workers, she said, too, which is the whole story is very weird. The other quotes from those people are Graham, Barr, et cetera. That is the kind of mindless partisanship that people actually hate more than anything in this country. I think it's like, yeah, well, I'm.

Speaker C
Supporting the republican nominee. That's the closest you get to just like, state tv propaganda for sure. Shit like communist. It was just, it was. It's listening to Bill Barr being like, the answer is, I support him.

Speaker B
The answer is, I support the republican nominee.

Speaker C
And then Mitch McConnell. What kind of influence do I have? I'm only the. I'm only the leader of the Senate who could have impeached the republican leader of the Senate.

Wild.

Speaker D
And then just like, lindsey Graham being like, I think Tiger woods fucked somebody once. Nobody's talking about that.

Speaker B
You're right, Lindsey.

Speaker D
What an important point.

Speaker C
Also, Ron DeSantis, remember Ron DeSantis who said, you know all these people, if you kiss the ring, then Trump likes you.

It doesn't matter how awful you are as a Republican, if you go kiss the ring, they like you. Well, he wouldn't kiss the ring.

Speaker B
He's kissing the ring.

Speaker C
Met with Donald Trump over the weekend. Donald Trump. Just truth before we started recording. He's happy to have Ron DeSantis endorsement. Here's everything's. Everything's all good with him. So there goes Ron DeSantis.

Speaker B
Speaking of state tv. I mean, we talked about this a little bit last week, but all the revelations that have come out in the hush money trial about the way the Trump orbit worked with the National Enquirer to not just catch and kill stories, but also fabricate and place articles about his rivals is really incredible. Like, Ted Cruz has five mistresses. Like, no one would have believed that. But it works, right? Like, it sticks with you. Propaganda like that sticks with you.

Speaker C
It works.

Speaker B
It has an impact. You have to respond to it. And I just can't even imagine what it would be like to be running a campaign and have, like, a house media outlet like that.

Speaker C
I know I said this to Dan and he was like.

He had a good retort, which is like, fox News, I guess they have Fox News.

Speaker B
Yeah, but not like that.

Speaker C
This is even more direct.

Speaker B
Way different.

Speaker C
This was like, gonna call you up, you're gonna place the story, or like, here, I'll pay you off to kill this bad story about it.

Speaker D
We're glad they're not better at it because I think it is not plausible to believe that there are six people on earth that would fuck Ted Cruz.

Speaker B
That is true.

Speaker C
But I mean, as we learned, you.

Speaker B
Know, Fox does have to be worried about libel. You know, they got sued and they lost. And I mean, just manufacturing stuff like this is an incredible weapon to have.

Speaker C
We talked about Joe Biden's comedic chops today. I do want to give Donald Trump his due because on that Bill Barr interview, during that Bill Barr interview, Caitlyn Collins also read to him Trump's truth, where he accepted Bills Barr's quasi endorsement. And so this was the truth. Barr has endorsed me for president despite the fact that I called him weak, slow moving, lethargic, gutless and lazy. Based on the fact that I greatly appreciate his wholehearted endorsement, I am removing the word lethargic from my statement. Thank you, Bill.

Speaker B
That's really funny, right?

Speaker D
That's really funny.

Speaker C
It's just funny.

Speaker D
That's just really funny.

Speaker B
Beating puppies.

Speaker C
And then she reads that to Barr and then he's just, he laughs and he goes, classic Trump.

Speaker B
Zero self respect.

Speaker C
Talking about how he wants to execute people, trying to overturn the election. I'm in.

Speaker D
It really is just the way these people will give up their dignity for some political gain or access or maybe some ability to get some job as a lobbyist. It really is just like you need therapy. You need to understand what the values and important things in life are. You need to get in touch with those.

Speaker C
Helen.

Speaker D
But I don't think these people can be saved. I don't think Lindsey Graham can. I don't think any of these people can be saved.

Speaker C
No. They just like being in politics too much. They like the job, they like the power, they like the title, whatever. They like being on tv.

I don't know.

Speaker D
The people that go into politics at a very young age and literally never leave, never get like a couple years in adulthood outside of it to look back. I think I've benefited from having that time for sure. Like the idea of like having gone. If you go into politics 1718 think about it all through college, go to get your first job, you never ever leave it.

I think if you're not, I think plenty of people can do great that way. But there are people that clearly need fucking space from this.

Speaker C
It's also, even if it's not about themselves and they're just deep believer. You can tell Mitch McConnell's like, I just love right wing judges, right? That's what he loves. But it's like that is the danger of that extreme ideology. It's like you like your fucking judges so much that you're sitting there being like, meh. Well, I hated the guy. He tried to overturn the election and almost ended democracy.

Look, we're writing laws here. I'm in the majority. I want to get more stuff passed.

Speaker B
Also, think just your entire existence is built around this one thing, which is your affiliation with the Republican Party. It's all your friends, it's your coworkers, it's your entire peer group. And over time, like in the moment, what?

Speaker C
In the moment, these guys all knew.

Speaker B
What Trump did was wrong because we watched them give speeches about it on the Senate floor or comment in the press at the time, but they just get worn down and they give up after years and years of people being like, come on, come on. Side, just endorsement.

Speaker C
And they learned from Trump that there is no longer a penalty for shamelessness in the Republican Party. So they can just do whatever they do on tv and embarrass themselves. And that's that. All right, that is our show for today.

We will be back with another episode on Wednesday. Love it. I believe you're hosting.

Speaker D
Yeah, Tim is back.

Speaker C
There's a former Republican who's done the right thing.

Speaker D
Yeah, we found one and we made him do pods with us.

Speaker C
You know what? It's fun. Alright, we'll be back on Wednesday. Bye, everyone.

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Speaker A
Angie's list is now Angie, and we've heard a lot of theories about why. I thought it was an eco move. Fewer words, less paper.

Speaker D
No, it was so you could say it faster.

Speaker C
No, it's to be more awesome. Iconic.

Speaker A
Must be a tech thing, but those aren't quite right. It's because now you can compare upfront prices, book a service instantly, and even get your project handled from start to finish. Sounds easy. It is. And it makes us so much more than just a list. Get started@angie.com. Comma that's Angi or download the app today.

Kissing Rings and Killing Puppies

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1. Introduction and Sponsor Messages

2. Media Strategy and Political Campaigns

3. Campus Protests and Political Reactions

4. The Role of Traditional vs. Non-Traditional Media

5. Controversial Remarks and Political Implications

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