Joe vs. The Unknown

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Ted Danson
Hey, friends, Ted Danson here. And I want to let you know about my new podcast. It's called where everybody knows your name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes doing this podcast is a chance for me and my good bud Woody to reconnect after cheers wrapped 30 years ago. Plus, we're introducing each other to the friends we've met since, like Jane Fonda, Conan O'Brien, Eric Andre, Mary Steenburgen, my wife, and flee from the red hot chili peppers. And trust me, it's always a great hang when Woody's there. So why wait? Listen to where everybody knows your name wherever you get your podcasts.

Jon Favreau
What's up, Boston?

Good to be home.

Welcome to pod save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

Meredith Hassan
I'm Meredith Hassan. And I'm kind of the. Am I the odd one out? I'm the odd one out.

John Lovett
I'm John Lovett.

Tommy Vitor
I'm Tommy Vitor.

Dan Pfeiffer
I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

John Lovett
And thank you all for being here at tonight's opening act for love it or leave it.

Jon Favreau
We have a great show for you tonight. Your governor, Maura Healey is here.

And our guest host this evening, the legendary host, commentator, debater, founder of the new media outlet Zetao, Mehdi Hassan. Mehdi, welcome.

Meredith Hassan
Thank you for having me. Thank you very much, boss.

Jon Favreau
All right.

All right.

Let's get right into it and start by talking about what's on everyone's mind right now.

How about them celtics?

That's it. That's what we're gonna talk about.

No, we have to talk about the debate.

On Thursday night, Joe Biden debated a deranged criminal bent on destroying democracy. And according to every single post debate poll, in all of our eyes, the deranged criminal won by a large margin.

More than 50 million Americans watched the trainwreck, which is about 30% fewer viewers than the first debate in 2020, but still quite a big audience. Yeah, you can cheer for that. That's great.

Too soon to know how this will affect the race, though. The early polls have not been great. But the Biden campaign is charging ahead and pointing to the president's livelier performance in North Carolina today.

Let's listen now, folks, I don't know what you did last night, but I spent 90 stages, 90 minutes on the stage and debating. The guy who has the morals of an alley cat told you this.

I know I'm not a young man.

State the obvious.

I don't walk as easy as I used to. I don't speak as smoothly as I used to. I don't debate as well as I used to.

But I know what I do know.

Dan Pfeiffer
I know how to tell the truth.

Jon Favreau
And I know how to do this job.

I know how to get things done.

When you get knocked down, you get back up.

So.

John Lovett
A lot of Chubbawamba fans here tonight.

Jon Favreau
I love that.

Donald Trump had a bit of a different take at his rally in Virginia. Let's listen. The question every voter should be asking themselves today is not whether Joe Biden can survive a 90 minutes debate performance, but whether America can survive four more years of crooked Joe Biden in the White House.

Yeah, you can boo that.

All right, Mehdi.

Well, so a lot of our listeners, they've already heard our takes on the debate. So I'm gonna start with you.

I want you to know I don't enjoy doing this, but yesterday before the debate, you tweeted, I think Republicans will regret setting the bar so low for Biden and helping spread the distorted image of him as a guy who was totally out of it, suffering from dementia, no grip on reality, no ability to speak.

Any updates there.

Meredith Hassan
John? It's even worse because there was an extra line at the end of the tweet that said it's a very low bar for him to clear.

The update is that the bar was not cleared.

Jon Favreau
It was not cleared.

Meredith Hassan
The update was that I am someone. The reason I wrote that tweet, John, is because for several months, actually for several years, when I was at MSNBC, for three years, I did a lot of monologues, a lot of segments saying the age thing. It's not as big as people say. Yes, he's old, but that can't be the defining issue when you're up against a deranged, narcissistic fascist who tried to steal democracy. And I said for a few weeks, since I left MSNBC, same position, in the last few months, we had all these distorted videos from Fox to TikTok nonsense. It's like, come on, this is bullshit. And then last night happened.

Jon Favreau
Yeah.

Meredith Hassan
And I can't say that anymore.

Jon Favreau
Yeah.

Meredith Hassan
And from like 09:01 I couldn't say that anymore. I don't know what I was watching because as I say, I wrote the tweet. I thought this should be straightforward. I don't know what I was watching.

The inability to finish whispered sentences, the deer in the headlights, the inability to actually, my biggest complaint about last night was separate to age or abilities. I want a presidential candidate who is going to batter Donald Trump because Donald Trump is for the battering and.

Jon Favreau
He didn't do well. Like, Donald Trump turned in a terrible performance.

Meredith Hassan
He turned in the second worst debate performance we have seen in 2024.

Tommy Vitor
RF.

Meredith Hassan
Joe Biden lost a debate to a guy last night who, when he was asked about climate change, said, we had h two o.

That is what he said.

Jon Favreau
I took that note. I had notes on the debate. And so I would once in a while type out something that Donald Trump said, and then every time Joe Biden would speak, I would just type, Jesus Christ.

Meredith Hassan
He said, we had h two o. And Joe Biden, of course, passed the biggest climate investment in american history, and yet Donald Trump said we had h two o. Not in a whisper and with a great confidence.

Jon Favreau
Yeah.

Meredith Hassan
And therefore he wins the debate. And I'm not okay with that. But you have to live in the world as it is, not as the world as we want it to be. And that's why I think it is a real problem for the Democrats now to have Joe Biden over the next few months. I have not said that until now. I'm not somebody who's been saying, get rid of him. Get rid. After last night, I have to be honest and say, I don't know how we continue like this.

Jon Favreau
Yeah. Tommy, let's talk about the Biden campaign's reaction and strategy going forward. He heard the president's speech in Raleigh. The campaign also says that after the debate, they had their best hour of fundraising yet. They've raised $14 million since last night. They are claiming that their own focus groups in polling look better.

And other than that, full speed ahead.

What do you think of their strategy and sort of Biden's message at the rally where he acknowledged what happened?

Tommy Vitor
Yeah. So we all watched the rally. I think it was good that in his remarks, I think President Biden acknowledged the obvious, which is that last night didn't go well. It was sort of an oblique reference to it, but he acknowledged it. It was smart to do a big rally to show some energy behind a campaign that could use it right now. I think Biden was able to deliver some lines at this North Carolina event that they probably wanted him to land last night. So maybe that will help kind of shape the narrative on the margins, but we'll see. But I do think we have to be honest about some big challenges, the first of which is exponentially more people will watch the debate last night and the coverage of that debate than we'll ever see this rally. And that's just an unfortunate fact. The second is, I just. We're grading on a curve here. You know, like, we're comparing a rally today to a very bad performance the other night. And, you know, if you really dig into the performance, like, Biden is sticking with some lines that I feel like just don't really work. I don't know what's going on with the alley cat comparison. Why are we attacking unhoused cats?

You know what I'm saying?

Jon Favreau
I didn't know they were. They're known for their bad morality, lack of morality.

John Lovett
I didn't know they live in the fucking alley.

What are you begrudging them? Oh, look at that immoral alley cat going through my garbage. What do you want it to do?

Meredith Hassan
The Supreme Court criminalized them living in those alleys just this morning.

Jon Favreau
Now we're going after a bunch of unhoused alley cats.

Meredith Hassan
All.

Tommy Vitor
All cats are serial killers.

I had cats. I love cats. They would leave dead bodies on our doorstep all the time. If you die in your home, they will eat you.

John Lovett
I don't want to live in a world where rich cats are held to one set of fucking rules.

Tommy Vitor
That's what I'm saying.

He also. He's also very proud of this line, comparing Donald Trump to Herbert Hoover.

Herbert Hoover was president from 1929 to 1933. That is not a cultural touchstone for.

Jon Favreau
A lot of people.

John Lovett
But, like, you really remember your college years, you know.

Tommy Vitor
So, like, I'm not a doomer. I'm not even close to giving up. The fundraising numbers I think are good. A lot of this campaign will be waged through paid advertising. But, like, I still feel like last night, President Biden dug a deep hole, and I don't. I'm not yet comfortable feeling that he has the capacity, the communication skills to get out of that hole. I think it's going to require some.

Dan Pfeiffer
More work just to do a hard swerve here on what we've been doing. Let's talk about what he. What he said, not how he said it at this rally. Cause I think there's something concerning there. Right? I'm all. I'm with you on the alley cat thing. Strange, weird. Doesn't really hit.

Tommy Vitor
Thank you.

Dan Pfeiffer
But what he said about his own debate performance, that's the right thing to do. You're supposed to go out and say you did poorly and then try to pivot to a better argument. What I am concerned about with the alley cat and the Trump lying is we are now pivoting back to an argument about who Donald Trump is. America knows who Donald Trump is, what this campaign should be about, and what I think President Biden was intending to do with that debate last night was to make this a race about what Donald Trump will do.

And that is so essentially important. We don't. There aren't much people who are just gonna wake up tomorrow and realize Donald Trump's an asshole. They know that, right? They don't wake up and realize he's a liar and change their vote. They have to focus on the damage he would do to their lives, the freedoms he would take away, what he would control if he gets reelected. And that has to be the message every single day going forward, because we're running out of time here.

Meredith Hassan
I totally agree with Dan, and I think there were, there were two words missing from the 90 minutes last night. Project 2025. I would like two of many. Two of many. Two of many.

But I would like the media to be talking about this. I would like the Democrats to be talking about this. I would like Trump to be put on the spot for what he plans to do in terms of putting the military on the streets and ripping families apart, et cetera, et cetera. Firing half the government. And, you know, we have to ask some questions about the CNN debate coverage as well. Right. I'm not gonna defend Joe Biden's performance, but it took them 39 minutes to mention the fact that the guy on stage is a convicted criminal. I would argue that should have been 39 seconds into the debate.

Jon Favreau
I know, but, like, they probably, I am sure that Jake and Danner were like, well, Joe Biden is debating a convicted felon. He's probably going to bring Joe Biden on his own relatively early in the debate, since no presidential candidate has ever debated a convicted felon before.

Meredith Hassan
Biden failed in that. And we could part that and say Biden failed at that. But the media's role there, as ever, I mean, I spent nine years trying to stop the normalization of Donald Trump in our media. I spent the last three years trying to stop the rehabilitation of Donald Trump in our media. I have failed miserably at both tasks. And I think last night's debate was evidence that Donald Trump is standing up there in a first debate since he was impeached for trying to overturn american democracy, since he was found guilty for financial crimes, since he was adjudicated as a rapist by a judge in a civil trial. And we opened with, what about the economy? As if this is like any other presidential debate. What the hell? And by the way, by the way, John very kindly said, I'm a guy who likes to debate. I do. That was not a debate. You can't moderate a debate if you're not moderating. There has to be some kind of fact checking. Donald Trump can't say, hey, they're trying to kill babies in Virginia, and then you go, thank you. Over to you, Joseph. I don't.

John Lovett
I just.

Dan Pfeiffer
What the.

John Lovett
I just don't. I just, like, I fundamentally disagree with what we watch. There were plenty of times in that debate, multiple times, the moderators followed up. The question was about the child tax credit, or the question was about, would you accept the election? I think they went back and forth. I just think, like, sure, in a debate, a live fire exercise like that, are they going to follow up at every moment? No. But I do not believe, I do not believe any change in how that debate was moderated would have changed the outcome, because ultimately, that was not a failure of moderation. That was a failure of Joe Biden. There were plenty of moments where Joe Biden didn't do the basics that shouldn't have been up to the moderator. It wasn't their job to discover in real time that the person that showed up wasn't the Joe Biden of the State of the Union, but something much, much worse. And the reality is, I think Tommy's right. We are grading on a curve. And you know what? That would be okay. We could accept that the best Joe Biden we could get was maybe the Joe Biden at the rally or the Joe Biden at the State of the Union, but not when the worst Joe Biden we have ever seen showed up at the most important moment in this campaign.

That is the problem. It's not that his best isn't good enough. It's that his worst is too low for us to potentially get out of. And I don't know how to get out of that, but we just have to be honest about it.

Jon Favreau
Yeah.

Lovett, you'll be shocked to learn that republicans are feeling great.

They're kind of just stepping back, eating popcorn while the news cycle plays out and the terrible debate clips make the rounds. Though Speaker Mike Johnson and others are calling the cabinet to remove Biden from office using the 25th amendment. Seems like that's gilding the lily.

What are you thinking? What did you make of Trump's rally?

John Lovett
You know, one of the points Trump made in his rally was like, oh, it's not about how old Joe Biden is. It's about his incompetence, because he is well aware that he doesn't have to do any work on the question of whether or not Joe Biden is too old. Cause Joe Biden's doing that work for him. There was a moment where Trump was shit talking Joe Biden by doing a golf swing and saying, let's see Joe Biden do that. Like, this is a victory LAPD because he's winning. I mean, it wasn't a draw, and we needed better than a draw. So of course they're going around and crowing. Of course they're gonna do the same 25th amendment shtick that we did. They're having a great fucking time. Great time.

Jon Favreau
Don't you think?

Tommy Vitor
Trump's like, hey, guys, chill with the whole 25th amendment thing.

Jon Favreau
Yeah, that's what I was.

Tommy Vitor
Let's just wait this out and let's let this thing play out for a minute.

Meredith Hassan
You think he doesn't want to do it?

Tommy Vitor
I think he probably is pretty happy with the state of the race.

Meredith Hassan
I think Donald Trump is the master of the hashtag. Every accusation is a confession, right?

Tommy Vitor
Yes.

Meredith Hassan
He's mastered. Everything he's ever said is taken from the other side. If fake news began as something about right wing media, he weaponized it to make it about the media. And of course, if somebody accused him of, you know, we know that his own cabinet work, considering the 25th amendment, he loves this shit. He probably told him, go put it out there. 25th Amendment. Yeah.

Tommy Vitor
He didn't want him to go through with it.

Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. I saw some Republican tell reporter, like, maybe we went a little too far because we needed Biden to be bad, but not so bad we get someone else. Right.

John Lovett
Well, that's.

Jon Favreau
I was wondering that too.

John Lovett
Right. I mean, I think it's a little. Be careful with. They're a little bit of caught the car here because of how bad it was. But I do think it's worth pointing out a distinction, because I've seen people compare the democratic reaction to Joe Biden to internal republican concerns that they've had about Donald Trump. But there's an important distinction, which is, I think Democrats right now, they're nervous and scared for the country because they understand the stakes of this election. And I think that leads some people to believe the right thing to do is to embrace Joe Biden and continue on this path and others that believe that we need an open convention. But the one thing we're not is scared of each other. Republicans were afraid to question Donald Trump, not because they cared about the country, but because they were afraid of Donald Trump, because they believed Donald Trump was a threat, not just to the country, but to their own safety. That if they were honest about the threat MAGA posed, they would face physical intimidation, that they'd have to worry for their families, they would get death threats. And I do think part of what is, I think good about this moment is that we are reacting to this with, like, good old fashioned democracy and having this open conversation collectively, trying to figure out what the best thing to do is.

Meredith Hassan
But are we. Are we doing that? Because you're right. There is. There is the threat. You know, Joe Biden's not gonna send people out to try and kill you or incite, you know, your death.

But the conversation, is it really happening? I mean, we're less than.

Jon Favreau
We're trying.

Meredith Hassan
We're trying, but.

Tommy Vitor
But, like, not at a senior level.

Jon Favreau
You're right.

Meredith Hassan
But this morning, everyone's like, it has to be Jill and Barack. And then Barack said, no, I know.

Jon Favreau
I don't know what that tweet was all about.

John Lovett
Well, look, if you go by, look, I think public facing Democrats are not putting their names to this, but in private. My goodness, are they being honest? Isn't that exciting? These anonymous Democrats are so, are so smart, brave. They're so brave when they don't put their names on it, when they text the reporter.

Jon Favreau
The ultimate collective action problem here, which, again, which is what you said, which has been the republican story since 2016. All these Republicans telling reporters, like, we don't want Trump. I don't like Trump. I think Trump is crazy, but I don't want to be the one to say that because I don't want to get in trouble. And it's just a very.

Yeah, we don't want to be like that. We don't want to be like that.

Dan Pfeiffer
Well, there's two parts to this, right? Like, there is right now. It is understandable. A lot of people who desperately like Joe Biden, care about Joe Biden and want to defeat Donald Trump rush to his defense at this moment. Right?

Jon Favreau
Yeah.

Dan Pfeiffer
Gavin Newsom, who was on everyone's list as someone who would run if the seat became open, was in the spin room. Like, what's he gonna say? Right?

Meredith Hassan
I mean, it would have been cool if he just declared then.

Dan Pfeiffer
That's right.

But the person who throws the first stone is not going to be the nominee.

Jon Favreau
You don't want to be holding the knife. You're not yet, like, if you're the one holding the knife, you're not getting the nomination.

Meredith Hassan
I would have liked to watch the debate last night with Dean Phillips. That would have been fun.

Dan Pfeiffer
What did he say? He had asked about it. He had a quote from garbage.

Tommy Vitor
Something cryptic.

Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. He said, don't speak if it won't upset the silence or something like that.

John Lovett
It was very good.

Jon Favreau
It was very good.

Dan Pfeiffer
There's gonna be another, like there is this moment right now. And Biden has done a lot and people have spoken out to stem the immediate bleeding.

But the question is going to be what happens in the polls over the next ten to 14 days? It is possible that this moves just a little bit, or maybe it moves it a lot.

And if it moves a lot, all of a sudden you're going to have a bunch of people who are Democrats running in red states or purple states or in purple districts who are all of a sudden you're going to freak out if their numbers drop because of it. And we'll have to see what happens.

Jon Favreau
But the big difference is, because we've talked about this, we all went through this when Obama had a horrible first debate against Mitt Romney.

The difference is, first of all, it wasn't as bad as this, but the big thing. But even if it was, it was October, right? Barack Obama was the democratic nominee. Just about every candidate, Republican or Democrat, who has had a terrible disaster of a debate in the presidential debate. It's been in the fall after the party has nominated them officially. And now we are in a situation where if this was in October, we probably wouldn't be up here talking about this right now. We'd be like, yeah, it sucked. We have a couple weeks to the election, and we all just got to bear down and figure this out and just, and just, we have five weeks right now.

John Lovett
Exactly.

Jon Favreau
So we had, like, we have not nominated Joe Biden yet. So, Daniel, we talked last night about how it's not too late for Joe Biden to step aside if he decides the debate fallout is just too damaging. And he has to decide because it is, too.

It's his decision. No one's challenging him. People voted for him. The delegates are his. So he's got to decide.

There are no indications so far that he'll do that. But one question we keep getting from everyone is if he were to do that, what happens next? Like, what are the steps? And what does the democratic convention in Chicago and the weeks leading up to it look like?

Dan Pfeiffer
So you made an important point. It's not just that no one is going to challenge him, it's that no one can challenge him.

He has an overwhelming majority of the delegates legally pledged to him. They are legally obligated in many states, by state law, to vote for the winner of the state's popular vote on the first ballot. So if all of a sudden Dean Phillips or some other Democrat were to come out and say, this is a bad idea, I'm gonna challenge him, that means nothing. That person has no access to delegates. They could possibly get the sliver of uncommitted delegates from people who voted uncommitted in the primaries, but that would be nowhere near what you would need. So I think if Joe Biden were to decide tomorrow that he was not gonna run, he was gonna step aside. He was gonna finish his term as president, but not run for reelection. There are two paths. The first path is he steps aside and he says, I am endorsing Kamala Harris, my vice president, to be the party's nominee. Someone could challenge her. But what likely happens there is that all of Biden's delegates, if he's not running, become unpledged. They can vote for anyone on the first ballot, but they're all people that his campaign handpicked and are loyal to the president. So if he were to say, I would like my delegates to support my vice president, she likely becomes the nominee. The party coalesces around her. I'd be shocked if anyone of consequence, the other people we talk about, Newsom Whitmer, et cetera, were to run. And so the general election against Donald Trump would start that day. She'd be the presumptive nominee. She would have to pick a vice presidential nominee.

She'd still have to be ratified by the convention, but that'd be a no drama event, and we would just be off and running. Kamala Harris versus Donald Trump. Maybe she ends up debating him in September, that previously scheduled debate. The other option would be that Biden steps aside and says, I'm gonna let the process play itself out. Some number of Democrats, some more than five, maybe as many as 50, would announce they're running for president.

And those people would begin a sprint to get support from delegates. They would do meetings, they'd seek endorsements. They'd come on pod, save America at every possible opportunity, and they would head toward the convention, and we'd get to the convention and it's theoretically possible that someone, some person, or a ticket that formed together could amass endorsements from enough delegates that others would drop out. But the most likely scenario is what we call a brokered convention. They would go there and they would address the convention.

The delegates would vote. You would need to get just about 2000 votes to win, because you have to get the majority. It's not plurality. You have to get a majority of the delegates. So you'd have your five candidates who make it all the way there. They all address the convention. Convention votes. Almost certainly no one gets a majority in that scenario.

They vote again.

Jon Favreau
And then the second vote, the superdelegates come in, right?

Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. Second vote, the superdelegates come in.

Jon Favreau
We should take the superdelegates. 700 superdelegates are party officials, elected officials, former presidents, former party chairs. They all get a vote.

They used to be more involved in the process than they weren't because it was, like, too much influence from party insiders. And so now they can't vote in the first ballot, but in the second ballot, the Superdelegates vote.

John Lovett
Right.

Dan Pfeiffer
They can't pick the nominee. They can't influence who becomes the nominee on the first ballot, but they can get involved in the second ballot. And you just keep voting and keep voting and keep voting until you get an actual nominee.

This was actually an episode of the West Wing at one time, which is why everyone calls this sorkin ask fanfiction and twists. It worked in that case.

John Lovett
It did work.

Dan Pfeiffer
And so the question is, that could be incredibly messy, it could be incredibly divisive, or it could be a process that ends with everyone understanding that whoever eventually gets the majority, we're going to coalesce behind them, because there is nothing more important than beating Donald Trump.

Meredith Hassan
Dan, that is what you just did is a fantastic and invaluable explainer. But just for the crowd, I just want you to add on something else. What happens between August and November, if something happens, pulls out, or, God forbid, something happens to his house?

Dan Pfeiffer
Well, I left out, actually, a very important wrinkle in this whole process, which is, as of right now, the DNC is actually planning on scheduling a virtual roll call so that Joe Biden can officially become the nominee before the convention. Because in order to be on the ballot by state law in Ohio, you have to have the nominee by August 7. Our convention starts on August 19. So we would have to either cancel that roll call, you either have to move it up and do this all by virtual roll call, which seems impossible to me or you'd have to get Ohio to change the law, which they do not want to do because they don't make things easy for us.

Jon Favreau
And it's a republican governor and republican.

Dan Pfeiffer
Republican governor, legislature or agreed not to be on the ballot in Ohio. Now, that seems we're not competing.

Biden's not going to compete in Ohio or are there democrats not going to compete in Ohio? But not having a presidential candidate on the ballot could, because Trump will be on the ballot, could affect turnout for Sherrod Brown and congressional races there. So that is an important wrinkle. Now, what happens if Biden were to decide afterwards? Would the DNC actually scarily explored this in 2016 when Hillary Clinton had that incident on 911 where she had a concussion and the DNC members would get together and pick a new nominee. Now, that person would almost certainly be Kamala Harris because she would be the one person who had been ratified by a majority of the delegates as vice president. But so they have the power to change it. Now. It's even more complicated if the states have printed their ballots.

Oh, because we've had situations in the past, like in 2000 when the governor of Missouri died in a plane crash. His name was on the ballot and he ended up winning. His wife said she would fill his seat. So you could be in a world if that were to happen. Biden could still be on the ballot but not running for president. But a vote for Biden could elect.

So it's complicated democracy.

John Lovett
Everybody feels good.

Jon Favreau
How's that? Is that good? Yeah. Happy Friday. You're thinking about it. All right. When we come back, we are bringing out your governor, Maura Healey.

Tommy Vitor
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Ted Danson
Hey friends, Ted Danson here and I want to let you know about my new podcast. It's called where everybody knows your name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes doing this podcast is a chance for me and my good bud Woody to reconnect after cheers wrapped 30 years ago. Plus, we're introducing each other to the friends we've met since, like Jane Fonda, Conan O'Brien, Eric Andre, Mary Steenburgen, my wife, and flea from the red hot chili peppers. And trust me, it's always a great hang when Woody's there. So why wait? Listen to where everybody knows your name wherever you get your podcasts.

Jon Favreau
Welcome back.

So, uh, I. We are in Boston to help launch our new book, democracy or else.

Seems like else is winning right now, but that's ok.

But because Tommy and I are proud mass holes, we're always looking for an excuse to come back home.

And we are especially excited to be here right now that you've elected a fantastic democrat to represent the commonwealth again, please welcome to the stage your governor, Maura Healey.

Oh my God.

This is the best thing ever. Are you kidding me?

Thank you.

Tommy Vitor
Holy shit, there's a lot of sugar in this.

Oh, my God.

Jon Favreau
Not enough for me.

Tommy Vitor
This reminds me of the summer I spent the summer between high school and college. I painted the exterior of houses and I would get Dunkin this tall, extra sugar, triple cream, you know, kind of white goop up to here. So thank you very much.

Maura Healey
And it's hard to paint at 10:00 at night because you'd still be up.

Tommy Vitor
Yeah, exactly.

Jon Favreau
Governor, I will tell you what this reminds me of a couple hours ago, because I have had four of these since we've been in Boston.

It's amazing.

Tommy Vitor
And you had, like, six in New York, too.

Jon Favreau
Six in New York, too. I love Dunkin donuts.

Tommy Vitor
John postmates Dunkin donuts to his house in Los Angeles.

Jon Favreau
I do.

Tommy Vitor
He, like, lives and dies.

Jon Favreau
And you know what? I postmate the coffee with this exact donut because my son Charlie is obsessed with this donuthen. So thank you. This is amazing.

Maura Healey
Wow. Good for Charlie. Welcome home, guys.

Tommy Vitor
Thank you.

Maura Healey
Let's welcome these guys back to Massachusetts, honestly. Right? North Redding. We have north reading in the house.

Jon Favreau
North Redding.

Yeah.

Here we go. There we go.

Maura Healey
And Worcester.

Jon Favreau
Hornet.

Maura Healey
And Dedham.

Tommy Vitor
Dedham.

What's up, Dedham?

Jon Favreau
Amazing.

Tommy Vitor
How are you?

Maura Healey
I said denim, not Dover.

Tommy Vitor
Oh, no, Detam. I'm Dedham. My mom's Dover.

Jon Favreau
All right, so I want to start with the topic. I know you must be as excited as we are to talk about last night's debate.

So I love Joe Biden. I support Joe Biden. I am eternally grateful to Joe Biden for defeating Donald Trump and for accomplishing just an amazing number of things as president.

As you just heard us talk about, what I am worried about is Joe Biden's ability to defeat Donald Trump again.

What about Joe Biden's performance last night makes you confident that he can beat Donald Trump again?

Maura Healey
Well, I was going to say, how about those celtics?

Jon Favreau
See? Yeah, that would have been easier.

Maura Healey
No, I mean, I think what we got to remember here, this is about defeating Donald Trump. And for all of Joe Biden's failures last night, and it was a big fail, I mean, that was horrible. It was tough to watch. We also had standing next to him, somebody who just repeatedly lied. And actually, if you weren't so distracted watching Joe Biden and listened, what he said was downright scary. So I think, John, part of what gives me confidence is that this is about defeating Donald Trump, what he says he will do, what he's talked about, because if there's one thing we know from the Trump years, as the guy who brags to this day about overturning Roe, when he says something, he's gonna do it. So I think that's where we are right now, and we need to settle from the other night, but continue to really press on what this is about. And this is about keeping Donald Trump out of the Oval Office.

Jon Favreau
Yeah, no, for sure.

Maura Healey
And I think it's also about talking about what has happened the last few years that has been good. People's rights and freedoms have been protected. We're on a new course. We see the benefit of it here in Massachusetts, where we are home to North America's first utility scale offshore wind facility. All of that is happening because Joe Biden and that administration is standing up a climate economy. So these are some of the good things that we really need to be focused on and talking about and that are very important. I mean, look at the healthy economy. How many students are worried about debt right now? How many young people can't afford homes right now? Joe Biden's building homes. He's relieving student debt.

Jon Favreau
Right.

Maura Healey
He's finding ways to grow salaries. We've got a problem with inflation, no doubt. Right. But we had a heck of a lot to come out of and to come through.

Jon Favreau
Yeah. And he's done an incredible job, and he's clearly a better choice on every single issue. A couple other New England Democrats were asked about this today.

Senator Gene Shaheen said, we'll let the process play out. Senator Jack Reed from Rhode island said, it's Joe Biden's decision. If Joe Biden called you and asked for your advice and said, you know, I'm not sure what I should do, should I stay in? Should I not? What would you tell Joe Biden?

Maura Healey
You know, the one thing I think I believe so deeply about Joe Biden is that he is a true patriot. He loves this country, and he's a thoroughly decent human being.

I'm, I don't think it's about telling Joe Biden anything.

Jon Favreau
Okay. Okay.

Tommy Vitor
So, governor, you kind of, you ticked through some of President Biden's accomplishments that helped younger voters, but it's a fact that the Biden campaign is doing very well with people over 65, but is struggling badly with younger voters.

How do you think the campaign should tweak its message or its policy to make sure that they're appealing to Bill Belichick and his girlfriend?

Maura Healey
Ouchenhein.

Ouch.

You got this guy. Do you know we got this new guy, though. This is Gerard Mayo, though.

Tommy Vitor
Great coach, great things.

Maura Healey
You know, we just, we're going to build on winning streaks here.

You know, I don't know. More .5s maybe.

I think it's about talking to the issues. I mean, this is about defeating Donald Trump. But I will tell you, the one thing we have to do is remind young people what this is about. Young people care about the economy. They actually want to be able to afford a house. They want to be able to afford to have a kid, right? They want to be able to grow in a career and in opportunities. And, you know, Donald Trump's the guy who, all he did was cut taxes for the very, very wealthy. You know, it's been democrats who've been finding ways to relieve student debt, to build more housing, to support the middle class. It's Donald Trump who wants to raise costs, including by doing things like cutting Social Security and cutting Medicare, which are for, you know, an older population. But those are also people's parents. Right? So if you're young, you care about the economy, you care about healthcare, you sure care about access to reproductive health care.

Did you know in Worcester, John knows this. John Holy Cross. Yeah, at the crosse. The cross.

And we love Bob Cousy.

Do you know what else Worcester produced other than the amazing fabs?

The birth control pill. You got it.

So young people, you know, young people actually care about things like having access to contraception and healthcare generally. And they care a lot about climate. They care a lot about climate. And they are not going to be well served by somebody who is just going to allow billionaires and fossil fuel CEO's to write a check and determine the fate of this country and this planet. That's what young people have to know.

Tommy Vitor
Didn't Clarence Thomas go to Holy Cross?

Jon Favreau
He did. Yeah. Yeah. Me and Clarence Thomas and Bill Simmons.

Tommy Vitor
When it comes to birth control, Worcester giveth and taketh away. I suppose so.

Jon Favreau
Tough, tough but fair.

Meredith Hassan
Apologies.

Tommy Vitor
So, governor, you recently sent a team down to the border to basically educate migrants about the lack of space in homeless shelters here in Massachusetts. For those who don't know, I believe Massachusetts is the only state in the country that has a right to shelter law. I believe it was passed in 1983 by Governor Dukakis, an incredibly, like, kind, decent, empathetic effort, but that, I think, has been sort of overtaken by events.

Jon Favreau
Right.

Tommy Vitor
Because of changes in migration. What does it say to you about how broken our immigration system is when the governor of a state sort of has to send delegates to essentially say, please don't come to our state because it might overwhelm the services? I mean, how can you even address that?

Maura Healey
Yeah, Tommy. Well, I mean, this is not a new issue. And most recently it's Republicans in Congress who passed twice, failed to take action on necessary border reform. Immigration reform that would have included relief for states like Massachusetts that are now having to house this extraordinary number of new migrants because of the geopolitical situation and the violence in other countries.

So that's just a damn shame, right? That there was a path, there were things that were gonna be done. So I support the president's executive action. I think that's absolutely necessary. And what I've said here, and I'm proud of the people of Massachusetts because we have found ways to house people, but we've reached full capacity here. The good news is we've been able to process people for work permits. So, you know, about 3700 out of 4000 have been processed for work permits. They're working now.

They're taking ESL. Right. And they're here lawfully. And, you know, that's. But I. But I wanted to send folks to the border because I needed to communicate to service providers and others there that the situation here in Massachusetts. And, you know, we are a humane people and we are a humane state, but we don't want people coming here if we're not going to be able to safely house them. And that's where we're at. But what needs to happen is that this is a federal issue. The federal government and Congress needs to act. And if you put governors in the room and they were honest with you, Republican and Democrat, we'd sort this out because, you know, we know what needs to happen. But there's a lack of political world right now and a lot of. A lot of, obviously, politics and gamesmanship, and it's ridiculous because people are paying the price.

Jon Favreau
So you mentioned some of what you've been doing around the issue of abortion. You recently asked healthcare providers in the state to stockpile doses of abortion medication.

You said this week. Yeah, you said.

You said this week that if Trump and Republicans, in a possible Trump administration, actually enacted a national abortion ban, that you would absolutely not enforce it in the state.

How, um.

How confident are you that could withstand legal challenges and a potential future administration that has talked about, like, sending federal agents and troops into recalcitrant blue states that don't pay attention to what they want to do on abortion, immigration?

How are you thinking about that?

Maura Healey
Well, I'm just thinking about what's right, you know, and I can wear my old hat as an attorney general and talk about protecting the freedom of choice, the freedom of bodily autonomy. I mean, how outrageous is it that right now, because of Donald Trump and what he said he would do, which he then did in overturning Roe one in three american women live in a state with an abortion ban. I mean, it's outrageous. So I think my job is to make sure in Massachusetts, you know, after Dobbs, we stockpiled doses of Miffy, so we have those for years to come because I want women here protected. We passed laws to make sure that patients and providers here and elsewhere were protected. And yes, this week I issued an executive order knowing this case was up and coming out of the Supreme Court. That said, in Massachusetts, let's be clear, any woman who needs emergency care, including emergency abortion care, hospitals are going to provide it and insurers are going to cover it. That is the way it's going to continue to be.

I.

Tommy Vitor
Governor, when I was a kid, when John was a kid, New York was our sports rival.

The Yankees always beat us. The Mets and the Rangers had like one year each. We won't talk about it. We lost some games to the jets in the regular season. The Knicks were okay.

Now the whole state is pathetic.

Do we need a new rival to replace New York when it comes to sports?

Maura Healey
Ouch.

I love that. And we also got to tweak Dan, right? Because Dan's from Philly.

Yeah. I mean, it's really, isn't it a shame?

Tommy Vitor
Is it?

Do you ever get sick of riding on duck boats?

Maura Healey
Good times that we've been so blessed, right? Yes.

Tommy Vitor
Is the duck boat maintenance built, like through the roof? You gotta get some budget cuts.

Maura Healey
It's the tires, you know, they wear.

Tommy Vitor
Seriously, you were telling us upstairs how much you love this Celtics team, how fun it was to be out with them. I mean, just talk about it for me, because you are a basketball fan. You are a basketball player, so you understand the sport. You've lived and bled on the court with folks. Tell us what this team meant to you.

Maura Healey
My God. Well, who's from Massachusetts here, right?

Yes.

I mean, this team was awesome. And they're just, to a person, such incredible humans. They're out in the community sorts of things. But what I loved about this team, and it reminds me of 86, too, and you're too young, but we had these guys, bird, that's Larry Bird, parrish and Mikhail and Ange and DJ, these guys, and they were superstars. But on any given night, people were ready to step up and play. And with this team, it was the same thing. You know, we had all these people who were like, any given night, somebody was ready to show. And so the other thing I like about this team is it's really hard if you're number one and you're at the top to go into the playoffs with that pressure and perform the way they did. And it's super cool. They're built for success. So hopefully we'll give them a break and root on our Red Sox and our Patriots and our. Then soon it'll be back in the garden for the Celts.

Tommy Vitor
So I saw that a couple weeks ago. You named, I think it was June 12, tom Brady day. You said he issued a proclamation that he was a goat. We love goat debates here. And I guess we're sports media for the next six minutes.

None of our listeners know what the fuck we're talking about.

Jon Favreau
Right?

The Venn diagram for this episode is.

Tommy Vitor
Like one guy, he works for us. His name is Elijah.

Let's do something really annoying for you. Can we rank the following celtics greats?

Larry Bird, Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum, Paul Pierce, Bill Russell.

Jon Favreau
Wow.

Maura Healey
Well, let me go through all different eras. Okay.

I go back to Bill Russell, who played with Cousy. Bill Russell iconic. His civil rights.

Jon Favreau
Yeah.

Maura Healey
All the work that he advanced, an incredible education.

Jon Favreau
Holy Cross also gave us Bob cousy. Enough with Clarence Thomas.

Tommy Vitor
You know what you did.

Maura Healey
So, you know, it's hard to. He's in his own category. And then Larry Birdhouse, you know, he's in his own category. The way he saw the floor and everything that he was able to do.

The jays, you know, here, they're starting out, they're 26, 27. So let's give them a few years, you know? And I love Paul. It was great to see Paul back with his headband in the garden. He also had a, had a good title. So that is a very politic way of non responding.

Jon Favreau
Smart, smart.

Tommy Vitor
I would say beautifully handled. And Paul Pierce, if you're listening, stay off the live streams. You know, another joke for like seven people.

Jon Favreau
No.

Meredith Hassan
Yeah.

Jon Favreau
Governor healy, thank you so much for joining us. Fantastic.

Maura Healey
Thank you.

Meredith Hassan
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John Lovett
The audacity of Bostonians.

Taboo. New York City. You are Philadelphia with smarter assholes and worse sandwiches.

Tommy Vitor
What the fuck, man?

John Lovett
Unbelievable.

Just cause you have cobblestones on the street doesn't make you fucking sophisticated.

Jon Favreau
You need to talk shit about the fucking freedom trail, huh?

Tommy Vitor
Yeah.

Jon Favreau
Yeah. Come on.

John Lovett
Yeah. Yeah. The second you're quartered, it's Liberty Bell. Liberty Bell. Liberty Bell.

Jon Favreau
Hey, y'all heard Governor Healy's answer on whether Joe Biden should stay in the race. This is something we didn't just pick on her. Every single current and former democratic elected official has been asked today.

So far, no Democrat in higher office has called for him to step aside. And the responses when asked have ranged from vague hedging to full throated defense of Biden as the nominee. Here's a sample. We've got to have the back of this president.

Dan Pfeiffer
You don't turn your back because of one performance.

What kind of party does that you go home with?

Tommy Vitor
The one that brought you to the dance.

Dan Pfeiffer
100% all in. Do you think President Biden is the.

Jon Favreau
Best messenger for the top of the ticket?

Maura Healey
I'm a very big supporter of President Biden. He's been a great president and done great things for our country.

Jon Favreau
Thank you. There were calls even inside the House in Democratic Party that he should step aside as the nominee. What do you say to that? This is an administration that gets things.

John Lovett
Done, and it's because of his leadership.

Jon Favreau
It's his decision. And what do you want to do.

Dan Pfeiffer
Going forward, what are you going to tell him?

Maura Healey
What did you make of his performance last night?

Jon Favreau
Just did it.

Maura Healey
Course, Joe Biden had one thing he had to do tonight, and that was reassure America that he was up to the job at his age and he failed at that tonight.

Jon Favreau
So I'd say things are a bit in flux right now.

And since we said on last night's episode, and we just talked about earlier, that Democrats should not be afraid to have an honest debate about this issue in public, we're going to kick things off right now. And who better to have with us to do this than Mehdi, one of the best debaters and author of how to win every argument.

Love it. How's this going to work?

John Lovett
What do we do?

What happens next? Could it work? Should we? That's not just what happened after Tommy and I accidentally brushed hands once after three martinis.

That's what Democrats across the country who admire and respect Joe Biden but worry about whether he is the right person to take on Trump are asking each other, and there are good arguments for sticking with Joe Biden and good arguments for seeking an open convention. So we're going to debate it right here on stage.

Here's how it works. John, Mettie, Tommy and Dan will form two teams at random. One is riding with Biden into victory, the abyss, wherever the other wants to do to the democratic convention what a gay couple does to their relationship after a long and difficult conversation in Palm Springs.

Open it up.

So first we will choose teams.

Austin, bring out the ceremonial hat.

Austin, everybody.

It's Austin's. It's Austin's birthday tomorrow.

Jon Favreau
What?

John Lovett
Happy birthday, Austin.

Jon Favreau
Happy birthday.

John Lovett
Okay, first we will choose the pro Biden team. All right. And then I guess by process elimination, we'll get the other team.

So it's only four names in the hat.

Jon Favreau
Our names are in the hat?

John Lovett
Yeah. Should have been teams in the hat.

Jon Favreau
Come on. What the hell?

Meredith Hassan
Hold on. We're pro Biden and just anti Biden. We're not pro another candidate.

John Lovett
You are pro the Biden remaining the candidate.

Meredith Hassan
And what's the other side?

John Lovett
The other side is wanting an open convention.

Meredith Hassan
Got it.

John Lovett
Wanting Biden to step aside and have an open convention. All right, we'll do. We'll do Biden's side first.

The Biden side will be Daniel and Tommy.

Jon Favreau
Oh, wow.

John Lovett
So stay right there.

Jon Favreau
Oh, that worked out.

John Lovett
Mehdi and John.

Dan Pfeiffer
The upside is we don't have to move seats.

John Lovett
Big win.

Meredith Hassan
We don't have to move seats.

John Lovett
Don't have to move seats.

Mehdi and John will argue for an open convention. Each team will have an opening statement. Each team will have a rebuttal. Then we will converse. The timing will be at my discretion. The rules are loose. The microphones will not be muted. Why? Because we're all adults who live in a society.

We begin with Team Joe. One of you can issue the opening remarks.

Jon Favreau
Sure, sure.

Dan Pfeiffer
You want me to do it?

Tommy Vitor
Happy to.

Jon Favreau
Or let rip?

Dan Pfeiffer
Go for it. You do it.

Tommy Vitor
Okay, so Joe Biden, here's the reason he should stay in this whole thing. It was one debate, you spineless weenies.

Jon Favreau
Wow.

Tommy Vitor
Biden did poorly in almost every single primary debate in 2020, and then he won.

We're making way too big a deal of this. Also, the period between now and the election is an eternity in political terms. Remember the insurrection? Neither does anybody else.

Calm down. Joe Biden was counted out in 2020. He was counted out in 2022. He showed all of you what he was made of, and he'll do it again.

Joe Biden exiting the stage right now will lead to nothing but chaos. There is no clear or obvious choice for who would succeed him. The process would be messy and disastrous. There will be factions. There will be vicious attacks. It will be a disaster. And the worst of the party will be on display for the entire world to see. And finally, you can get elected statewide in a state like California or Michigan or wherever. And you get vetted by the press. Kind of. But nothing compares to the proctology exam that is running for president.

Every human being has skeletons in his or her closet. They will come out during the general election, and there will not be time for the democratic party to vet them beforehand. Stick with Joe Biden. We know him. He got us here.

Go home with the horse you dated or some shit, whatever Newsom said.

Jon Favreau
Yeah, go home with that. Go home with the alley cat that brought you.

Tommy Vitor
So that's the fuck that alley cat.

John Lovett
Wow. Powerful words.

Rough landing. But he got there.

Much like Joe Biden at his best.

That's your fucking line? Okay, they're mad about the sandwich thing. Mehdi, you want to take us away for the broker jokers?

Meredith Hassan
I do. I do want to go first because I wasn't going to go first, but then I heard Tommy speak, and I thought, this is just too easy.

Jon Favreau
Wow.

Tommy Vitor
This is like when I was in the White House and met you with the journalist and used to kick our ass.

Meredith Hassan
You know what Tommy said? You know what Tommy said? To lose the entire debate. He said, it's an eternity until the election. So if it's an eternity until the election. Why the fuck do you want an 81 year old guy waiting for an eternity? I don't want to wait any longer. Four months? Yeah. That's an eternity. My dad is 86 years old. He's one of the smartest, most knowledgeable, most hardworking people I've ever met. My dad doesn't want to be put in charge of anything right now, let alone the nuclear codes. And by the way, when you're making the case for Joe Biden, don't mention proctology exams. That's not helping your side either.

It's just not.

Last but not least.

Last but not least. Let's just deal with this debate bullshit. It was just one bad night. Obama, Romney, Obama, Romney. There wasn't that much at stake. The guy wanted a binders full of women. He wanted to put his dog on the car. Democracy is at stake in this election. And therefore, we need a guy who's not going to say, beat Medicaid and run out of steam. We need a guy who's going to beat the fascist. Save american democracy. And that requires big d democrats to put their big boy pants on and sort this shit out and have a brokered convention in August and have some democracy.

Everyone in this room knows that John doesn't even need to speak. We've already won.

John Lovett
Wow.

Tommy Vitor
Big d Democrat energy over there. Look at that.

John Lovett
Powerful words.

Dan, care to respond?

Dan Pfeiffer
Sure. I can explain why we have to stick with Joe Biden. We give you two words. Ron DeSantis, you may say, huh? Why am I saying that? Let me tell you, if Ron DeSantis had never run against Donald Trump, and Donald Trump had just been, say, I don't know, convicted 34 felonies and sentenced to prison, and they were looking for another candidate to replace them, they would have picked Ron DeSantis. Looks great on paper.

Governor seems like he had presidential timber. He would have gotten in that race and shat the bed in five minutes.

We do not know who our Ron DeSantis is.

Any single person we picked could end up being bad and worse than Joe Biden. I, in my long career, as I'm older than you guys, have met with dozens of people who thought they would be president.

Governors, senators, members of Congress, business people.

They all seemed impressive on paper. They seemed impressive in the meeting. Most of them never got off the launching pad. Because there is nothing harder in american life than running for president. It is the going from even the governor of a state like California to running for presidents like T Ball, to game seven the World Series. We at least know for all of his flaws that Joe Biden can win a presidential election. We know that there are tens of millions of people who have voted for him, who are willing to vote for him again. He is behind in this race, but he's not behind by much. What happens if we pick the wrong person? Because there is no going back then.

John Lovett
Can I follow up on that as the moderator and my dispatch, my boys, wicked smart.

And we'll go to John in a second.

Isn't that.

I appreciate, I appreciate the fear of the unknown, but that's an argument against any new person from running for president. That's an argument for John because you.

Dan Pfeiffer
Have a primary, you have a year and a half long primary. Like, it was very possible that when we all, when those of us who went to go work for Obama on the very first day, that he never made it out of the first two months, but he had what it took. He had to get, he got knocked down. He got up. He had to sit before Edwards. He had to go to 13 debates to do all of these things. There is a process to get the wheat from the chaff. We are going to skip that process here. We are going to pick up, we're going to allow, I don't, have you ever been to a convention? You ever met the delegates? We're going to ask a group of people who collect pins for a living to pick our president.

Tommy Vitor
John, have you ever met the delegates? Just won this whole.

John Lovett
John, tough hit. Tough hit on the. Tough hit on the delegates, I assume, many of whom are fucking listening.

Tough hit on hyper engaged partisan activist Democrats doing the daily grinding work of keeping our party alive. Over to you, John.

Jon Favreau
This is not about Joe Biden as a human being, because he is a wonderful human being. This is not about Joe Biden as a president.

He has accomplished legislatively more than almost any president of our lifetime. I think you could even argue more than Barack Obama. Okay. And I think he has done a fantastic job. This is about Joe Biden as a candidate. You know who our Ron DeSantis is? Joe Biden, because we saw it last night, because that was the, because in terms of performance, that was not just the worst debate. That was the worst public performance of anything we've ever seen.

70% of voters have a problem with Joe Biden's age. It's concerning them. And Joe Biden won 2020 by 40,000 votes across three states. That was 2020. That was before any other polls in that election.

He was leading Donald Trump by 5678 910 points going into this debate, which was the worst disaster in modern debates in any debate. Joe Biden was behind Donald Trump in the debate.

The debate was the one moment that more people were watching this race than any other moment that will happen in the campaign. And we hope that there's a debate in September. But if you're Donald Trump, why would you agree to the debate in September after you just did that? So now we have a convention in August where Joe Biden will hopefully, presumably give a great speech, and then Donald Trump in July will give a great speech, and there will be no more moments, and the race will be frozen like this. The biggest challenge in this race has been to capture people's attention in a very fractured media environment. There are now no more opportunities because there won.

50 million Americans tuned in. Joe Biden did not show up. The Democratic Party does not have a problem with the party. We won the 2022 midterms. Josh Shapiro won in Pennsylvania by double digits. Gretchen Whitmer won in Michigan by double digits. Raphael Warnock, the first black senator from Georgia, won in an extremely difficult state. Multiple times. He won, we have over the. Since Donald Trump has won the presidency in 16 Democrats, younger, like, energetic Democrats, diverse from the left to the center left, women, men, black, white, have won all over this country. The party does not have a problem with Democrats. It has a problem with Joe Biden. That's what people are trying to tell us right now. And a convention would be, look, a convention is risky. It is definitely risky. We could end up with a candidate, like Dan said, who then goes through the wringer over the next couple months, and we'll all sit down and be like, oh, this was worse. This was worse than Joe Biden. But this is democracy. Right? All the candidates that are going to run will get to make speeches. There will be polls. Yes. The delegates will pick. Would it be better if voters picked? Yeah, of course. But that's not where we are right now. We're in a situation where in just a couple months, Joe Biden could lose to someone who wants to end democracy, which we know because he tried to overturn democracy four years ago. That's where we are right now, so why not?

John Lovett
I'm sorry. I'm going to give people.

Tommy Vitor
Sir, can I respond?

Dan Pfeiffer
Can you mute his mic, please?

John Lovett
I'm gonna need to let them respond. I'm gonna have to let them respond.

Dan Pfeiffer
Speaking of overturning democracy, we have a process to pick our nominee.

Jon Favreau
Mm hmm.

Dan Pfeiffer
We had that. We went through that process. Anyone could have run. No one, Dean Phillips ran.

Mary Ann Williamson ran. We all could have voted for them. We didn't. We voted for Joe Biden. And now, like, I don't know, I'm trying to think of another person who, after an election is over, doesn't like the results and then consider storming a meeting in which people are certifying the results of that election.

John Lovett
Wow. Wow. I have to say that's a low blow, Dan.

And I want to keep this civil. I do want to fall.

Meredith Hassan
First he's like, they're all collectors of pins. Then he's like, don't hurt them.

John Lovett
I want to ask about a specific problem and why we shouldn't worry about it, which is if we were to go to some kind of an open convention, what is the cost of a period of time in which Donald Trump has the stage to himself and Democrats are arguing with each other rather than fighting? Donald Trump's right question, John, thanks.

Jon Favreau
Staged to himself a contested democratic convention, which has not happened since 1968. I was just talking about the biggest challenge in this election is attention. Will get more attention, more media attention than anything that has happened in politics in a decade.

And Donald Trump will be yapping away, posted on truth, social. And the attention of the rest of the country will be on the diverse array of democratic candidates that are at that convention talking about the values of our party, where they're going to take this country, what they've done in their states.

That's what the attention is going to be at a democratic convention. That's messy. Will there be arguments? Yeah, there will be plenty of arguments. There will be arguments between the left and the center left, and we'll have to deal with all that. But you know what? But unlike the primaries that we've been through, that last like a year, a year and a half, it will be condensed. It will be a couple of weeks of debate and argument, and then we will have a nomination.

Meredith Hassan
Also. Americans like new shit.

They do. Sorry, I'm.

I've been an American for four years, and that's what I've noticed.

You go into the grocery store, it's always something new. Why do you think there's so many freaking sequels in Hollywood? But I think people like new stuff. Let me just be the skunk in the room here and bring up topic that I know no one really wants to talk about. But it is crucial to this conversation, which is if you don't have Joe Biden on the ticket, you don't just deal with the age issue, you deal with the Gaza issue to an extent. And to an extent.

I've been to Georgia. I've been to Michigan recently. Every single brown person I met, people who voted Democrat all their lives say, we're not voting democratic. We want to punish Biden. Now, don't shoot the messenger. I'm just telling you that is what people are saying. And if you get rid of Biden, you do kind of deal with that problem, which is a fresh start for the Democratic Party. The next guy comes in and gets to talk only about ceasefire, not about eight months of providing weapons. And I think that will help hugely. Before the age thing came along, I thought Biden might lose because of Michigan, Georgia, and all the young people and people of color I've heard who say they won't vote for Biden.

John Lovett
Tommy, we've heard a pretty beautiful idea of the democratic process in action at an open convention. Do you have any concerns about what that might look like?

Tommy Vitor
Yeah, I mean, I'll be honest with you, John. I'm just kind of sad, you know, listening to this.

You guys have the loyalty of an alley cat and you guys are acting like a couple of giant Democrats.

You know what I'm saying?

Jon Favreau
I do know what you're saying.

Tommy Vitor
I know what you're saying. Capital D, Democrats.

Listen.

Jon Favreau
It was a rhetorical putting the d in Democrats. Is that what you're gonna say?

I thought where you were gonna go was it also deals with the problem of incumbency. We talk about Joe Biden's age as one of the reasons he's been very unpopular the last four years. But I do think for all that Joe Biden has accomplished and for the fact that in this country inflation has gone down faster than almost anywhere else in the world, incumbents across the world right now are facing real political challenges. It doesn't matter if they're left center, left center right. There is an anti incumbent mood that has happened because it's a post Covid, post inflation thing that has been hurting incumbents all over the world. And if you have a new nominee from a state that has not been around for the last four years making decisions, then that is a fresh start.

John Lovett
Now, Dan, is it difficult hearing an argument like this from someone like Mehdi when you find out that he has the.

The food tastes of a four year old child and has never tasted sushi and has literally never had a fucking smoothie in his life? How can a person that incurious about the world be someone we take seriously in a debate as important as this?

Dan Pfeiffer
I, for one do not want to delve into personal attacks here. I don't want to end this on sort of our version of the great golf handicap debate of 2024.

I would like to respond to. I respond to Jon's idea about media coverage because I think he has it backwards.

I personally do not subscribe to the Kim Kardashian theory that all press is good press.

And what I would say is the problem is not that the, like, maybe we have a great open convention and there are great candidates and it's very friendly. But the problem of these seven weeks where Donald Trump is running unopposed, is that there is no attention on Donald Trump. Every single moment of press is on us. It's who is Gretchen, which we're talking to. It's how we progress.

Jon Favreau
What do you think the Democrats are gonna be talking about? Not beating Donald Trump?

Maura Healey
No.

Dan Pfeiffer
We're gonna be fighting with each other.

John Lovett
Before one person speak at times.

Meredith Hassan
No, no, no.

This is.

Dan Pfeiffer
I will finish my point real quickly and hand it. And hand it over generously to many.

Meredith Hassan
Mute my mic if you dare.

I mean, sorry, that's B's 90 minutes. Last night was a chance to go after Trump, and they blew the 90 minutes last night. And you keep saying, well, the people voted. The people voted. I dare you to ask all those people to vote again this morning after what they watched last night. It's not the same thing. We're. We're in a very different place. People saw the car crash in front of their eyes.

Dan Pfeiffer
I understand that. I respect that.

I respect your food choices as well. Hey, I think they're yours. On food choices, they're your choice.

Meredith Hassan
Not going to be Lexing lectured on food choices by the side that is promoting ice cream guy for another four years. Right.

Jon Favreau
We know you aren't involved.

Meredith Hassan
We have that much in common. We love ice cream.

Tommy Vitor
I know you want a mulligan, but Joe Biden just hits big, sweet, long drives, and that's what we're gonna keep doing here.

John Lovett
And I think that that's a beautiful place to leave this very actually genuinely interesting and passionate debate. I think that actually did a great job of representing the fact that anyone who says this is easy or that we shouldn't have this debate is not being honest.

And that's it.

Jon Favreau
Want you all to know, we've had this debate many times. I could have argued. We all could have argued the other side, too. We have.

John Lovett
Absolutely.

Jon Favreau
Because it really is. That is how tough the choice is and that is how good the arguments are on both sides. It is very difficult situation, which is why we've talked about, like, having this in public, because I think people who deeply believe that we should stick with Joe Biden. I get it. I totally respect it. People who think like, no, we need to. He should step down. I totally get that, too. We're in a fucking tough space.

John Lovett
Find people on both sides. Is. I think that is my.

Jon Favreau
Yeah.

John Lovett
That's the key thing here.

Jon Favreau
No labels.

When we come back, a game.

John Lovett
When disaster strikes, we think of all who are directly impacted, whether it's a natural disaster like a snowstorm, or a man made disaster, like what Kanye did to that mansion in Malibu.

All right? Not an architecture TikTok.

Well, we think of almost everyone who is impacted. But when there is a massive blunder or mistake or human error, when a decision is made that cannot be unmade, we often overlook one particular impacted individual. The poor spokesperson sent out to the microphones to defend the company whose oil tanker is currently coating an endangered seal with crude. Or the aircraft manufacturer struggling to keep doors attached to the planes. Or the campaign whose candidate was chased into a bathroom stall by the national choir while he was visiting his secret baby.

Tommy Vitor
Hey, I didn't work there anymore.

John Lovett
I made reference to Baghdad Bob to a producer who I realized was too young to understand the reference. That was my personal disaster.

So here's how it works. I am going to assign a disaster to each of our boys out here, and they will have to spin that disaster.

Are you ready?

Tommy Vitor
I hope so.

John Lovett
First up, Dan. You are the spokesperson for the big dig. And you are.

And you are speaking to someone who sat in traffic from 1987 to 2006.

Dan Pfeiffer
Okay. Are we ready?

John Lovett
We're ready. Go.

Dan Pfeiffer
Look, I get it. No one likes traffic.

You have places to be. You have things to do.

I understand that it can be frustrating. It can be annoying. I feel your pain.

But I think you're thinking about it wrong.

It's not just that you're waiting in traffic like the greatest generation. You are sacrificing for future generations.

There will be a day, maybe a decade from now, maybe several decades from now, when your grandchildren or your great grandchildren are getting from Charlestown to Dorchester on time. They're getting to Logan airport without any traffic. And they will, like the greatest generation, they will think back to what you did to help them.

That your time in traffic is sacrifice for their punctuality.

Jon Favreau
Dan, you are Zacom bridge.

Dan Pfeiffer
When you. You are, you are very slowly storming your own Omaha beach.

John Lovett
Dan, I gotta press as a journalist in this case.

Hey, when a project takes an extra decade and $8 billion don't you think there should be someone in charge of gluing the ceiling to the fucking roof?

Dan Pfeiffer
Time's a construct.

John Lovett
All right. Well done, Dan. Well done.

Next up, let's go to Tommy.

You are the spokesperson for Mitt Romney after he put the family dog on the roof of his car and you are trying to defend yourself to Sarah McLaughlin.

Tommy Vitor
Hey, Sarah, thanks for taking my call.

I know we reached out about licensing your music for the Mitt Romney Senate family library and this is why I think it will work for you.

The fake news media has written a lot about strapping Seamus to the roof of a cardinal. What we don't talk about in these stories is that dogs famously love putting their faces out of cars when you drive them places.

So why not go the extra yard? Why not level up the experience for your dog?

John Lovett
Wow. Powerful words.

I actually think that that's a really good point.

I can't believe how much hay we made out of that. Dogs love being outside in their cars. It's like a dream come true. It's al fresco.

Jon Favreau
People didn't like it. It was fucking weird.

John Lovett
It is weird. Hey, wait a second. That's weird.

Tommy Vitor
Well, it was.

Now, in fairness, it was a drive from Boston to Canada.

I do think the dog shit down the window.

Jon Favreau
You're not really making a good case for yourself now, but if you give.

Tommy Vitor
Your music to us, it will remain in the arms of a Romney.

Jon Favreau
Wow.

John Lovett
Well done, Tommy. Thank you.

Tommy Vitor
Thanks.

John Lovett
Next up, Mehdi Chernobyl is unfolding and boy, do you have bad luck, because at the very moment they're trying to figure out how to place a kind of cement sarcophagus over the steaming disaster site. It's your job to convince the people of Worcester that it's Worcester Wooster.

Jon Favreau
Worcester.

John Lovett
How do you say it?

Jon Favreau
Worcester Wooster.

Worcester Boo Wooster, please. Where I went to college.

John Lovett
That's not on me. You pick half the fucking letters to pronounce you illiterate fucks.

Please.

Jon Favreau
Worcester.

John Lovett
You got your accent from the british rejects of 300 fucking years ago.

Meti, back to you.

I have no patience. I have no patience for Boston.

Tommy Vitor
Your choice every day to open a.

John Lovett
Nuclear plant in Worcester.

Jon Favreau
Thank you. Thank you.

John Lovett
Convince these vulgar, rude cretans why nuclear energy is the right path forward.

Meredith Hassan
Like Dan, I believe that we need to sacrifice for future generations climate change, existential threat to our way of life. We need to get on with it. We need to stop climate change. Nuclear is the fastest way to stop climate change. Don't worry about what happens in Russia. That's Russia's problem.

You don't care about what's Russia's problem. You care about what's Worcester's problem.

Worcester wants to save its children.

I don't know how the fuck to say it. Worcester, Worcester, Worcester.

Once it's Worcester, Worcester. What's nuclear now?

Jon Favreau
You got it. Worcester.

Meredith Hassan
And. And to quote the next president.

To quote the next president of the United States, nuclear is very strong.

John Lovett
Oh, no.

Tommy Vitor
Oh, no.

John Lovett
Well, powerful words.

Jon Favreau
Much like, we don't care what happens in Russia. Boston doesn't care what happens in Worcester. Cause it is past 495.

Got the.

Tommy Vitor
Oh, yeah, fine.

John Lovett
You say that now, but then a bunch of radioactive suburbanites are wandering down the fucking boulevard.

All right, John, you are Buckner's agent after the Mets beat the Red Sox in the World Series.

Jon Favreau
Oh, boy.

Okay, look, everyone has a bad night.

Everyone has a bad performance.

Had he been injured all season? Sure.

Had he been struggling with that injury? Did he walk like he used to walk? No, he didn't walk like. He hasn't walked like he used to walk anymore. Did he run like he used to? No, couldn't run like he used to run anymore. But you know, what did he cost the Red Sox game? Six and then the World Series? Sure.

As a. As a five year old, was it the first time I saw my dad punch a wall? Yes.

Yes.

But you know what?

No one ever talks about the run he scored in game seven.

Yeah, no one ever talks about the pitching. Maybe it was the pitching.

Maybe they shouldn't have put Buckner in when he was injured. No one ever talks about that.

Tommy Vitor
That's true.

Jon Favreau
We shouldn't be focusing on Buckner's one night of bad performance.

We should be focusing on our common enemy, Mookie Wilson.

John Lovett
But, John.

But, Jon, wait a second. Jon. But wait a second. That's all well and good if there are other factors, but if one bad night is the difference between winning the World Series and losing the World Series, is it worth thinking about whether or not it was right to put someone like Buckner in that position? Especially after we saw what had happened?

Jon Favreau
You know, it's a good point, but here we are. So what else are we going to do?

John Lovett
Wow.

Powerful words, Bill Bucketer.

Jon Favreau
And that's our game. And that's our show for tonight. Thanks to mete for being with us. Thanks to Governor Healy, and thank you to Harvard book store for selling democracy. Or else go get a copy. And thank you, Boston. Hang in there.

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Joe vs. The Unknown

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