Is the Biden Dam Breaking?

Dr. Horton
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Speaker B
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Jon Favreau
You do.

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Jon Favreau
Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. Joining us today.

I said, jon Favreau?

Jen Psaki
Yeah.

Jon Favreau
All right. Well, you know, is this a bit?

Jen Psaki
Is this a Lovett bit?

Jon Favreau
That's crazy.

I've been doing this for too long. Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm John Lovett.

Jen Psaki
And I'm Jen Psaki.

Jon Favreau
Jen, welcome back to the pod.

Jen Psaki
Thank you. What a time to be alive. Thank you for inviting me on and during this easy moment in democratic politics.

Jon Favreau
Yeah, it's all, it's all straightforward from here. Yes. Lot to discuss.

The effort to bounce Joe Biden from the ticket appears to either be stalling or picking up momentum, depending on who you ask and at what hour.

Democratic senators are suggesting a reckoning may be at hand. Donald Trump goes after Kamala Harris and flirts with Marco Rubio at a rally in Florida and goes hard yet again on Biden's golf game. And despite all the chaos, Democrats are actually succeeding in breaking through with a message. Or a message is breaking through despite what Democrats are doing about project 2025.

I also want to note that in the shameless plugs department, MSNBC just announced that Eugen will be hosting a special in September in Brooklyn called MSNBC Live Democracy 2024. Is that about whether we'll be one?

Jen Psaki
Well, certainly that's part of the discussion. It has to be. But it's all, it's me. It's everybody's favorite hosts other than me. And we're all nerdy, just as you guys are. And we'll talk about where the state of our democracy is with lots of panels. It'll be fun.

Jon Favreau
September feels like a lifetime away.

Jen Psaki
It is, kind of.

Jon Favreau
And that's the beautiful thing about politics. All right, so the House and Senate have been back in DC for a couple days. As of this recording, roughly ten House members have officially called for Biden to step aside, depending on whether or not you count Jerry Nadler, who went to the microphones to try to unslice the bagel. The latest defectors include Pat Ryan of New York, who's in a tough district, and Mikey Sherrill of New Jersey. And this morning, former Speaker Nancy Pelosi has been pretty oblique in her public statement so far. Went on warning Joe with this message.

Jen Psaki
It'S up to the president to decide if he is going to run. We're all encouraging him to make that decision because time is running short.

He's beloved, he is respected, and people want him to make that decision.

Dr. Horton
Do you want him to run?

Jen Psaki
I want him to do whatever he decides to do. And that's the way it is. Whatever he decides, we go with.

Jon Favreau
So no senators have said that Biden should go, but a lot of them are stopping just a few millimeters shy of that, including Patty Murray, the most senior Democrat, and Michael Bennett, who went on CNN last night to say Biden can't win and that he'll take the Senate and house down with him and that Biden doesn't have a plan to win in battleground states yet. He didn't actually call on him to drop out. Richard Blumenthal said basically the same thing this morning when reporters chased him down. And then just before we recorded, Senator Tim Kaine, whose colleague Mark Warner has been out in front, went pretty delphic with this.

Nancy Pelosi
I have complete confidence that Joe Biden will do the patriotic thing for the country, and he's going to make that decision. He's never disappointed me. He's always put patriotism and the country ahead of himself and I'm going to respect the decision that he makes.

Jon Favreau
For his part, President Biden spent the day at the NATO summit in DC after making an opening speech last night that went pretty good. This morning, he reportedly met with union leaders, part of his strategy to rally his allies behind him. One group of Biden supporters does appear to be defecting right now, and that's Hollywood types. And late night hosts Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert came back from break and both did pretty withering monologues. That was notable on Colbert's part because he hosted a huge fundraiser for Biden at Radio City this spring. And then this morning, George Clooney, leader of the Biden resistance at this point, co hosted an LA fundraiser that Jon and Tommy and I went to publish an op ed in the Times calling for Biden to go. So there's a lot happening. So let's start with this. Just, Jen, where are you emotionally right now on the question that is preventing us from focusing on the even bigger question of how to defeat Donald Trump?

What do you think President Biden should do?

Jen Psaki
Well, the weird way my low grade or high grade anxiety manifested itself last night was that I cleaned out my refrigerator, which is a very weird suburban thing to do, but very satisfying.

Jon Favreau
So I did my closet, Jen. I did my closet.

Jen Psaki
This is like we're telling everyone you don't know what to do. Buy your book, clean out your closet. You'll feel like you'll, you know, I think what I am most closely watching right now are the vulnerable members. There's a lot of noise here happening in Washington publicly. Some of it, there's a lot of word garbling and carefully worded statements. You read a number of them, but it's less we care about everyone's voices, but less the members that have no shot of losing their reelection and more the ones who do because those are the ones who are looking at the most up to date polling and who the most rides on. Right. I mean, if democrats lose the House and the Senate, or the House and the Senate and Trump is elected, that is a whole scary ballgame there. I don't even know what analogy, I couldn't think of a super scary one. So it became a ballgame. But, and so that's what I'm most watching. And you didn't mention them and they didn't go as far as some of the people you said, but it was interesting to me on Monday. Senator Tester and Senator Brown also came out and basically expressed concerns from what they're hearing from their constituents. Right. So that is another way of saying, I don't know if I can win. Right.

And, you know, a lot of people have, there's a lot of ways to look at this because it is a question of, like, who is that? Who impacts you at the top of the ticket? Right. That's a question here. And a lot of them are running ahead of Biden anyway. So some will tell you, and some pollsters have said it's baked in. Right. That's an argument. And it may be in a number of these races, but it's not in every race. We've seen that in places like Wisconsin and also this race. And you guys have talked about this and I totally agree, it's going to be one on the margins. Right. So it's not really about looking for where there is a ten point drop. I hope there's not that. It is who is going to help propel or at least not drag down.

Jon Favreau
Yeah, I think it was. I think Sherrod Brown, just before he recorded, was speaking to reporters and basically saying, maybe you could take this as reassuring or not, but some version of, hey, this separation between where Biden's at and where these Senate Democrats in important states are at, that divide isn't going anywhere. We can still win these Senate races, which is, I think, manages to both be incredibly disconcerting and also somehow reassuring at the same time.

Jen Psaki
It's maybe both. Can I, one more interesting thing. You know, John, there's a member of Congress from Washington state, Marie Glisson Camperez, who is such an interesting candidate. She's a freshman and she's basically been saying Trump is gonna win and that the House needs to be a check. So that's also concerning messaging. I'm not, and I'm not. That's not even, I'm not being critical of her. Like she's saying, let me be a check. The presidency is lost. It doesn't mean she's right. It just means there's all sorts of, in these vulnerable races in these districts, I think, is where the most telling information is being gathered from. And I actually think that is what Speaker Pelosi and I'm sure we'll talk about her. Cause she was the big person today and Schumer and others are listening to because they wanna keep the Senate. They wanna win the House. And that's when things start to get trickier in their loyalty.

Jon Favreau
Yes. So let's talk about what Pelosi said. I do think that. So there, I am sure there are members that are genuinely expressing their belief that Joe Biden is the person that we should stick with. And I respect people who have that view that they're earnestly expressing. I think it's harder and harder to justify. But there are people that have that view.

Jen Psaki
I actually think there are probably a number who are, because they're worried about the alternative, and I'm not validating that. But that is a real discussion happening right now on campaigns.

Jon Favreau
Yes. And so, no, and I think that's true. And I don't want to pretend that that's not real because I think people, when they're mad or upset or their stakes are high, they go right to saying, oh, you're not really being honest. Let's trust that a chunk of those people are being sincere. Then there are other people that are being very careful publicly while expressing a lot of concerns in private. Now, some of those people, I think, are just being timid and seeing where the people are going so that they may lead them. But I actually don't think that's the case with someone like Nancy Pelosi. And so it does seem like there's that what Nancy Pelosi is doing in some level is saying, I'm not calling for you to drop out while these foreign leaders are in Washington. And when I don't believe public pressure is the most helpful way in which I can reach Joe Biden. What is your take on what Nancy Pelosi is trying to do here?

Jen Psaki
I think she rarely says anything publicly that isn't purposeful.

So it doesn't mean everything she says is, is like talking pointy and perfectly exact in that way. That's why she's such an interesting, one of the reasons why she's such an interesting person to watch and see what they're saying. We had her on our show a week and a half ago and she basically said a version of I'm with Joe Biden for now. Like, there was an added words that was kind of an interesting tell, I will say, just from seeing them interact and talk on the phone. She loves him personally. I mean, they're almost flirty when they talk to each other. Right? They just, they've known each other for decades. There's respect on their political strengths. She loves him. She also is a political animal machine who wants to win the house. And so I think I heard all of the things you said. I also think that a calculation for her and others like her is we don't know how this will end, and they don't, nor do I. I don't think we know how this will end, regardless of people's views on it. And we don't want to weaken him publicly. And so if it is him, we're going to be with him 1000%. And you can't have the former speaker of the House out there calling for him to step down publicly. Right.

I think that's part of her calculation, I would suspect.

Jon Favreau
Right. But at the same time, if Nancy Pelosi wanted to express unequivocal confidence in Joe Biden, she'd be doing that. Right. Like, if Nancy Pelosi wanted Joe Biden to remain in the race, she would not be speaking the way she is speaking.

Jen Psaki
That's 100% true. That's what I mean by she doesn't say anything without purpose and without thinking strategically about it. But I also think she's walking a careful line here, as many of them are, that I understand strategically. I don't think. I don't think this can be the tightrope people walk for that much longer, but I understand a little bit of their calculation.

Jon Favreau
Yeah, I think I do, too, although it's a. I respect it as long as it is part of an effort to get to a better outcome as opposed to simply trying to get through a specific news cycle. And speaking of that, Joe Biden, after the debate, I think there were a lot of calls that said something like, if Joe Biden's going to remain in this race, then what he has to do is an energetic and aggressive campaign of town halls, interviews, press conferences, a rigorous schedule. I do not think that anyone could fairly say that that is what we have seen. We've seen a George Stephanopoulos interview, some conversations with radio hosts. There does seem to be an effort to kind of slow this down to kind of buy time.

Biden met with union leaders earlier today, and he said this, you know, we.

Nancy Pelosi
Have two strong, strong organizations in America that I look to for our security.

One, literally, and I mean this sincerely, is NATO. NATO. A joint assembly of democracies that made sure we're keeping the peace and no one's going to screw around with us. The strongest it's ever been. And I think of you as my domestic NATO.

Jen Psaki
Can I just say, as a side player, I never want to hear NATO out of the mouth of another presidential candidate again.

Sorry, Tommy, I understand he's talking about it. It's happening right now, but it has been a very present, repeat talking point. And I don't understand. He has a very good public argument to make.

So.

Jon Favreau
Yes, no, no, no. That is part of this, which is, look, it is, I think, a true piece of conventional wisdom that foreign policy like NATO is not going to be the place where a Democrat wins the presidency. So it is quite a twist to then use NATO to frame domestic policy as well.

But I do.

Jen Psaki
I love NATO. I'm like almost Tommy level nerd on this stuff.

Jon Favreau
But still, you know, a lot in this episode is going to be about the difference between what we say publicly and what we say privately. And I feel duty bound to say that before we recorded because Jen was stuck in traffic. She did say, and I quote, fuck NATO. And I'm sorry to ouch you for saying that, but I'm not going to sit here and be a hypocrite, Jon.

Jen Psaki
Love it. Because context is everything.

It is bumper to bumper traffic and you can't go anywhere downtown. So I felt bad making you wait to record.

Jon Favreau
So that's no. And I know, and therefore. Oh, well, whatever happens to the Baltics, happens to the Baltics. But anyway, continue. We love the Baltics. But no, but he refers to the unions as my NATO. And I do think it speaks to this balance. Joe Biden is striking between efforts to actually assuage concerns about the way in which age is a liability among voters and his efforts to try to stop this debate because he believes that what we must do is move on to the conversation about Trump, which I don't think is wrong. But what do you think right now between the balance of his efforts to actually address these concerns versus trying to kind of circle the wagons to prevent these concerns from forcing him to step down?

Jen Psaki
Well, first I will say, regardless of the outcome, I mean, his campaign team, who I feel the most for right now, because I think this is really, really hard.

Jon Favreau
Yeah.

Jen Psaki
They have done a very effective job of circling the wagons. I mean, you can disagree with it. You can think he shouldn't be the nominee moving forward, but they have been very effective. The CBC being out for him, union workers and others, where there is a place where there's a missed moment for him. I mean, there's many. But in this moment is messaging about Trump and why he's a better choice than Trump. He doesn't need to be the deliverer. I understand the George Stephanopoulos interview, and he's doing Lester Holt on Monday. I'm sure a lot of it will be right. Like, are you up to the task? Have you seen a doctor all these things. You can't control those questions. But when he speaks at public events, he could be giving a breakdown of how horrible project 2025 is. He could be doing his Scranton Joe, which, by the way, is his sweet spot, and he's very good at, of, like, I'm gonna fight for you. I have been for 50 years. And that other guy only cares about himself so he can get himself out of jail. It's, it's a little bit that's. You have different roles, as you well know, on campaigns, and I think the campaign staff are doing a great job of circling the wagons. Right. He doesn't need to be the public circler of the wagons, and I. But, you know, I think he's gotta show strengthen two, which he's done. It's just, there's the other part he seemed. Feels missing.

Jon Favreau
Yeah. Well, this is, I think, where it all starts to feel a little bit disingenuous, which is, I think, one thing.

Even senators that are leaning pretty hard against Joe Biden, then say, if Joe Biden wants to have my support in the convention and he's not going to step aside, then he needs to be a more aggressive and energetic candidate. He has to be out there more. And now there are some, you know, maybe he can, maybe he can't, but right now, he's not.

Jen Psaki
Yeah.

Jon Favreau
And I wonder what. You worked for him.

Why do you think, other than the explanation, that doing more events would not be helpful to his cause, what would be the argument for why he has not been out there more in the two weeks since the debate?

Jen Psaki
I wish I had an answer to that. And I did work for him. And as I've said, I love Joe Biden. He is a great human being. He's been a phenomenal president, has completely kind of survived through odds against him a thousand times over and done more than anyone thought he could.

The thing that I, I haven't seen him in more than two years, since I left. Right. And so the thing that I can't figure out is, when I was working from, I'd never met anyone who loved spending time with members of Congress more, which is not something our former boss, President Barack Obama, would have said. Right. And most people say, to be clear. And Joe Biden, we used to bring members of Congress on trips with him and elected officials. He just liked to spend the entire time talking to people. He's an extrovert. He loves being around people. I don't think, like, press conferences are his superpower. I'm not sure whose superpower that is.

And I don't even know if long form, many, many, many interviews they do.

Dr. Horton
Some.

Jen Psaki
But, like, not. But being out there in public and with people and engaging with people is his superpower. And what I don't understand is why they haven't done more of that. He also is a person who picked up the phone. I mean, most elected officials need a briefing memo to, like, call a member of Congress. Like, what are you calling them? What are you asking them for? He would just pick up the phone and call Democrats, Republicans. I'm sure it drove the legislative affairs team insane. Cause it was like, you know, but that's what he would do. So we don't entirely know all the things going on and who he's talking to and who he's not talking to in terms of advisors or also members. But it doesn't seem.

It's not similar. It's not like when I was there in terms of what he would be inclined to do publicly.

Dr. Horton
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F
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Speaker B
It does.

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It is.

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Jen Psaki
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Jon Favreau
Soft and strong.

Jen Psaki
Simple.

Jon Favreau
So in lieu of those kinds of events and those kinds of conversations, what we do have is he's apparently going to talk to Lester Holt on Monday.

That will be two and a half weeks since the debate. And then tomorrow, after the NATO conference concludes, he's going to do a big press conference in which, once again, all eyes will be on Joe Biden and his performance.

What does success look like for you in that press conference? What does muddling through look like and what does failure look like?

Jen Psaki
I mean, first of all, the challenge of this press conference is that because they haven't done a lot, there are so much focus and emphasis and expectation about it. Right? I mean, right? Done a bunch of other interviews and done, like, four events a day. I mean, he did have a very busy day on Sunday, but he could have had many other days like that. And then it's like, well, he answered that question. Weird. He talked about Aukus, but, like, he's done 17 events, right? I mean, right.

You know, I think success is honestly performative.

It is not having a moment where he freezes.

He may lose his train of thought. But I think if people look at, he's done that more lately, but I think if people look back at him talking ten years ago, he's a storyteller, and he interjects stories all the time, and it makes it a little confusing. So he may do that, but I think it's really performative. And does he come with energy? Does he drive the message home?

Does he talk about Trump in an effective way? Does he not start a non sequitur of a different topic.

There are a couple of things that happened during the debate. I mean, you know, obviously people talked a lot about how he looked. Right. And that is, I think, watching what was the most jarring. Right. And maybe it was a terrible night and that's it. But there were also moments where he answered questions that were hard to understand as well. And I'm not saying that's an age thing. It may be, but I also think that it leaves people at home wondering, like, well, what are you gonna do? And how are you different from Trump? You know, that's kind of been a little bit lost from the coverage because there were so many other things. But I think it's having, like, a clear, concise contrast message with Trump being confident but not condescending, you know, in how he talks during the press conference. So its tone and its performance, I think, largely. But, you know, and as you know, there's only, I don't know, the conversations that are happening internally. None of us do. So it may be that he didn't want to do other interviews and that many advisors advised him to. I'm not sure. Right. Or other campaign events that is also possible. You know, presidents are, they do, they are the ultimate deciders, which I think is important for people to know and understand about this moment.

Jon Favreau
Yeah, it's, I don't know.

We talked about managing the anxiety around this, but it is strange even talking like this. You know, we're both people that worked for administrations that want to advocate for the democratic candidate, want to advocate for a democratic president. And also, like, I don't know how you feel, but, like, I feel a little guilty as we have these conversations, not in particular because of criticizing Joe Biden. I don't think we owe Joe Biden anything, but because I feel for the people that are working in those jobs trying to do their best under these circumstances who themselves don't know what the right thing to do is. How do you think about that?

Jen Psaki
Yes, I think that's, I think about that all the time. And, look, I don't, I owe Joe Biden the chance of being the White House press secretary, and I'm very aware of that. Right. That doesn't mean, that doesn't mean I owe not discussing what we're all seeing with our own eyes. And I think part of the challenge right now is that this is a healthy discussion that happens in a democracy about the path forward. It's never happened before in this way, but it has sort of exposed, you know, kind of some real resistance to having a conversation, when a conversation needs to be had. I mean, you know, when you come on and you guys do your podcast or when I do my show, it's not like we're just solo reporting on what we think we're talking about what people, as in members of Congress, the american public, people who are running advocacy campaigns are saying and thinking. Right. And that's important for people to understand and digest. So I'm very sympathetic to a lot of things right now. One, people being pissed out there, whether they're pissed at me or you or other people, that's fine. Be pissed. It's okay.

Frustrated. I get that. This is frustrating. I mean, Donald Trump is like a convicted felon who is also like a sexual assaulter. Like, how is this even happening? Right. And I also think a lot about the campaign staff, because when you're on a campaign, as you and I both know, I've been on, we've both been on winning and losing campaigns. Right. And when you're on a losing campaign, and we don't know that this is one. So I'm not saying that. Don't come at me. I'm just saying when your campaign is having a down moment, and even for Barack Obama, we had down moments. Right. Probably caused by you, maybe.

Jon Favreau
Yeah, those were our up moments. I had up moments when you had down moments. Yeah.

Jen Psaki
You are dug in with the people you're working for. You believe in the person you're working for. You believe in your colleagues. You're lifting them up. The vast majority of people on this campaign are doing this to save democracy. All of them are. And they don't know what Joe Biden is going to decide. They're not talking to him on a daily basis.

Most of them are not. And I think that's also important for people to understand. They're just trying to charge forward with the campaign, and they're sort of stuck in a version of purgatory as well. So I think it's very difficult. And I think from the people I've talked to, it's a range of emotions. You know, I think it's a range of emotions, which is understandable.

Jon Favreau
Yes.

And it does. I think in moments like this, especially when it's sort of, you know, an intra family dispute, emotions can run high. And it leads to both kind of both sides accusing the other of being out of touch, not having their finger on the polls. So I do want to put some data to this because the polling is painting a pretty damning story. Yesterday, the cook political report shifted projections for six states towards Trump. Moving Arizona, Nevada, Georgia from toss up to lean republican. Very concerning. Moving New Hampshire, Minnesota and Nebraska, too, from likely democratic to lean democratic. And new individual swing state polls, including those from Emerson, all show the battlegrounds slipping away. There were some polls that I saw just before we started recording of some swing districts in New York where we were deep, deep, deep underwater. Really troubling signs. There was a sense out there post debate that what would really change the public statements of Democrats would be polling.

Has the polling reached that point or are people overreacting to the dip? Post debate, what do you think?

Jen Psaki
Well, I think that in the days post debate, the argument was from the Biden team was there hasn't been, we don't know what the public thinks. Right. And that was accurate at the time. Right. And still it's like, it's a little bit murky out there entirely what you know, based on.

But I think it still comes down to these are the states that need to be won in order to win the presidency. And a number of these states are also the states that need to be won in order to hold onto the Senate. And a number of these districts are districts that need to be won in order to win the House.

Now, there is a question out there that, again, I think campaigns are talking about, about the alternative. And the alternative is very clearly, in my view, there's a lot of really amazing democratic on the bench. But because of the timeline and everything, I think it is clearly Kamala Harris. Right. So I don't know why there hasn't been kind of an overwhelming, Kamala Harris would be a great president and she would be, she would be a fierce, amazing campaigner. Right. But that's not typically the message. I'm not, that is just, I'm observing what people are saying. Right. It's typically, don't take it away from Kamala Harris. If it's, if it's open, that would be unfair. Now, that's valid, too. But also, I think there is not a clear 100% comfort level with the alternative either. Or that is my sense. I don't know why, but that is also what I'm feeling right now from talking to people and reading a lot.

Jon Favreau
No, I do think that is part of it.

I think it's a few things. I think one of it. Right. Is that if justifying sticking with Joe Biden, given the polls and the debate performance is difficult, I think actually coming to believe in a caricature of Kamala Harris is sort of a useful psychological defense. I think that that's absolutely part of it. I also do think something happened. First of all, the vice presidency is a goofy job.

Jen Psaki
It's a goofy, weird job. Selina Meyer, we're looking at you. It's weird.

You know, you're in a very weird. You have a great house. But other than that, it is a very awkward, challenging job. Kamala Harris, the vice president. I'm gonna call her vice president now. Cause I keep calling her. She is, like, in my view, an undervalued talent.

She's a very fierce communicator. She's very strong, especially on one of the core issues that made the election maybe one or lost on, which is abortion rights, you know, and I said, this is why I think what she did out and did a couple of interviews after the debate, people, I was sitting on the set with a bunch of other MSNBC anchors, and we were like, everyone's like, that was great. It's like, yeah, she was. Yeah, that's what she's doing out in the country, and nobody is really tracking it. It's just, that's who she is.

But there is a character out there. There is.

It's almost like public opinion hasn't caught up with what she is doing out there. And also, we live in a country that is sexist and racist. So, like, there is that. Not everybody at all, but there is a level of it that does impact elections.

Jon Favreau
Of course, I also do think, like, the liability with Vice President Harris that has nothing to do with her is that she would bear some of the costs of incumbency, and you're starting to see that in the polls. But there are two other parts of it. So the vice presidency being fundamentally goofy, combined with occasional moments where she's a little goofy, not in any kind of disastrous way, but, like, they're just goofy clips of Vice President Harris. You can see them as endearing. You can see them however you want. But I do think that that has sort of led to an over torqued opinion about her political skills. I think the other piece of it, too, is she was a district attorney and a prosecutor, and then she runs for president in a democratic primary at a time in which there was a great deal of focus and antipathy in a segment of the base around prosecutors and police.

And I think it's made. I think that that, plus the lack of a clear lane for her in the primary led to some confusion on who she is or where she stands, which wouldn't be a problem if she became the democratic nominee because she could talk about her record. I think it would be reflective of the ways in which she's evolved on criminal justice and the way she talks about it now. I don't think, I, I don't think that that primary was purposeless. I think there was value to, incredibly important value to the discussion we had around it. But nonetheless, I do think that carried a bit of a legacy. But I think all of it, to your point, led to a kind of, yes, she's undervalued as a political asset. And I would, look, I get a, can somebody send this to the khive? I just would like the khive to see a clip of me praising Vice President Kamala Harris because I think they never think I do it. Can we just send this to the khive? I don't know how you reach them. Some sort of a signal.

So a lot of democrats right now feel angry with Biden. I'm among them.

A lot of democrats feel angry at democrats like those of us that have felt like he should step aside.

It is a divisive moment, whether it's Biden or not.

What does stitching this coalition back together look like?

Jen Psaki
Well, a decision, because people have a range of views out there and that's clear. Right. And, you know, just as you've said a number of times, and I totally agree, it's like the notion that this isn't a real discussion or people aren't worried is just not being honest. Right. And, you know, but the notion that it is so clear to everybody what the right path is is also not true. Right. I mean, true. I think the challenge right now is that it's this sort of purgatory, right. Where the focus and the coverage and the attention on. And I'm not, I think I, this is an important thing for people to talk about and cover. So that is not a critique. Like, it just, it is happening. We have to talk about it is overshadowing the fact that, like Trump may pick between JD Vance and Doug Bergam and maybe Marco Rubio and also his, the republican platform is now 18 pages and it has things like on Russia, Ukraine, it's like peaceful Europe. That's like their whole thing. Right? I mean, there's so many things that are, there just isn't space for right now. And I think a unifying thing would be a decision because people will come around to what the unifying thing is. I think for the most part, it's just. What is it?

Jon Favreau
Well, yeah, I think it's more than, yes, I think that's right. But I think it's a decision that is justified by events and facts. And so that, to me, means either Joe Biden decides to stick it out and proves that he's up to it, or he steps aside. But right now, we're getting neither.

Jen Psaki
You know, but how do you define that? And who defines that? This is the challenge. Right.

Jon Favreau
Yes, I know. I know.

Jen Psaki
There's no, this is what I'm struck so much by a lot of these statements of a range of elected officials. Right. I mean, I'm not sure it's. I don't know that anyone's deeming. Senator Mark Warner lost his heart to lead this process, but, like, I'm not sure who is leading this process. Like, who concludes it? How does this conclude? Because if it's the president, he said he's gonna run, and he said he's not stepping back where his decision is. So if there is a movement for that not to be the decision, I'm not sure who's running that process or how it concludes.

Jon Favreau
Right, right.

It would be. Because I think that it's. It could be Joe. It really could be Joe Biden saying, this conversation is over, and here's how I'm ending it. But that can't come with a press conference two weeks later, a Lester holt on a Monday, you know, a call to Joe and Mika, which was, I think, pretty friendly towards President Biden. Like, that's not, it's. That's not answering the concerns, that's ignoring the concerns. And so I do think that if Joe Biden says, I'm not going anywhere, but doesn't make any of these changes and the poll numbers continue to slip, I think then you would start to see a Chuck Schumer, a Nancy Pelosi other starting to become more forthright.

Jen Psaki
That's why I think, because I think it's very hard to define what. And just to, like, play. I've been very candid about what I'm hearing from, hearing from people, and I will continue to be in what I think. But, like, to pay devil's advocate on the Biden team, like, what is enough? Right. What is enough to satisfy that? And so, to me, I'm not. I think it's more about vulnerable members running and where they stand and how this could impact them in the House and Senate.

Jon Favreau
Hey, fidelity.

F
How can I remember to invest every.

Jen Psaki
Month with the fidelity app? You can choose a schedule and set up recurring investments in stocks and ETF's.

Jon Favreau
Huh.

F
That sounds easier than I thought.

Jen Psaki
You got this?

F
Yeah, I do now.

Jon Favreau
Where did I put my keys?

Jen Psaki
You will find them where you left them.

Jon Favreau
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Jen Psaki
Look around. You can find cars like these on autotrader. New cars, used cars, electric cars, maybe even flying cars.

Okay, no flying cars. But as soon as they get invented, they'll be on auto trader. Just you wait. Auto trader.

G
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Jon Favreau
Look, I do think in terms of Joe Biden himself.

I worked for President Obama. You work closely with Joe Biden. There are these two sides to Joe Biden, and one of them is this magnanimous and generous, kind and decent person. And the other is somebody, I think, who does want to prove himself. He wants to be the one to do it. You know, even in that interview with Micah and Joe, he said, who the hell else could hold NATO together?

And I'm just wondering, as somebody that's worked closely with him, what would be the kind of conversation that would open the possibility of Joe Biden realizing he ought to step aside and pass the torch?

Jen Psaki
I mean, I'll also say in February, he said 50 Democrats could beat Trump. Right? So we're in the moment we are in.

You know, I do think that he is somebody who he is. He is. I know he doesn't seem this way publicly, especially during the George Stephanopoulos interview, which my gut is, there was this strategy to be overly confident, and it came across as disconnected. But I'm not saying that was the right strategy. I just think there may have been a strategy, but this conversation is probably going to be from people who tell him if the path is that he's not going to be the nominee, that he will take the House and Senate down. Right. That he doesn't have a path to victory, if that's what people believe, and he will take the house and Senate down. Now, there are people he very much trusts and he's close to in his life who have, in my presence, given him hard, you know, have conveyed hard truths.

Mike Donnellan is certainly one of them.

You know, Ron Kleen is one of them.

There are people in his life.

I don't know that that's how they feel. Right. And so that ultimately, but all of them are Ted Kaufmande are incredibly smart, politically astute people, right, who love Joe Biden, love his family, are proud of everything he's done. As, by the way, 99.9% of Democrats are as well. But I don't know what tips that for those people who are close to him in his life and his family to say, it can't be you. And part of it, I think, is confidence in the alternative, which, again, I'm not validating, but I do think that is part of the thinking and the conversation.

Jon Favreau
So I do think we'd be, obviously, the reason I think this conversation is so tense is because of the stakes. Donald Trump held a rally last night. It's his first big campaign event since the day after the debate. He has been basically golfing while his poll numbers rise, which is obviously dispiriting here.

Jen Psaki
Public eye for twelve days, which has also been happening during all of this.

Jon Favreau
Yes. Which, and by the way, again, it points to the, they're doing a better job this time than they are last time because when your opponent is digging a hole, you let them. So let's just share just some of the nonsense that we've heard from Trump at this event.

Nancy Pelosi
Speaker one so tonight I'm officially offering Joe the chance to redeem himself in front of the entire world.

Let's do another debate this week so that sleepy Joe Biden can prove to everyone all over the world that he has what it takes to be president.

I'm also officially challenging crooked Joe to an 18 hole golf match right here. I will give him ten strokes aside, and if he wins, I will give the charity of his choice, any charity that he wants, $1 million. I think they probably think I'm going to be announcing that Marco is going to be vice president. I don't know, because that's a lot of press.

That's a lot of press, Marco. You're going to vote for it, I hope. Well, you may or may not be there to vote for it, but you'll be involved. You know, it's the first time I'd ever done this. I went, I didn't even know what the hell NATO was too much before. But it didn't take me long to figure it out. Like about two minutes.

Jen Psaki
So he does impact there, as we like to say. And that wasn't even the scariest stuff he said in the last few.

Jon Favreau
So, you know, it is not wrong that this conversation about Joe Biden is preventing us from focusing on the threat Donald Trump poses.

One thing that has happened over the last week is that Donald Trump, I think, being too cute by half, decided to say, I don't know what project 2025 is. And by the way, whatever it is, I hate it. Except the parts you like.

Jen Psaki
Except I wish them well.

Jon Favreau
I wish and I wish and I wish them well. I wish them well. First of all, why do you think Trump decided to back away from 2025, and do you think his drawing attention to it has led to this surge in interest in what it might be?

Jen Psaki
Well, I think there was a bit of a surge in interest right before, in part because effectively a lot of outside groups and democratic organizations were really pushing and spending money on it for people to kind of be aware of the dangers of it. Also, the president of the Heritage foundation, after the immunity decision by the Supreme Court, came out and said something completely insane about, like, a revolution. I don't remember the exact quote.

Jon Favreau
He said, it'll be bloodless as long as the left lets it be bloodless.

Jen Psaki
Yes.

Jon Favreau
Quite threatening.

Jen Psaki
Correct.

So that's crazy. Think aggressive Maga, think tank in action there. I think he's a brand guy. Right? I mean, I think he's like, eh, this name doesn't seem popular. People don't seem to like it. Right. But the truth is, and I know you guys have talked about this, but, like, people who worked for him and would work for him again are running it. Russ vote, who's on the short list of potential chiefs of staff, is literally writing major chapters about executive authority. Right? I mean, the plan is his plan for the most part. So I think he probably thought, and this branding's not good. I don't want people to know more about my plans. I mean, that's what I think the republican platform committee thing is all about. I mean, the 16 page republican platform committee plan basically reads like a series of, like, tweets, right? It's a plan.

Jon Favreau
It's a joke.

Jen Psaki
It's a policy proposal because they don't want people to have more details. And that's kind of the strategy, I think.

Jon Favreau
Yeah, it is.

This is their second term plan. This is their off the shelf plan. That's why it exists. That's why it is named what it is named. It is made by people who were in the administration he found right before.

Jen Psaki
He went to jail.

Jon Favreau
Everyone writing it will be inside of the administration. And by the way, Donald Trump continues to be an undisciplined oaf who knows nothing about the government, who will cede control of the administration to these functionaries. These are the bureaucrats that will be making the decisions. That is the plan. He doesn't get to distance himself from it.

Jen, what are we going to do?

Jen Psaki
I was hoping you were going to have an answer to that question.

Jon Favreau
I'm glad we talked.

I do think the concern that this endless debate about Joe Biden and his fitness is preventing us from prosecuting the case against Donald Trump, I think is actually quite true. I just think they're laying the blame in the wrong place. Like, if you, if we want to get back to a conversation about Donald Trump, it will, it is incumbent upon Joe Biden to get this conversation to end either by proving it should be over or by stepping aside so that it is over. I don't, I don't see another way to it.

Jen Psaki
Yes. I think the proving it is over, though, is tricky, and I don't know how that is defined. And there are a couple of paths here.

One is the clock just keeps ticking, and the republican convention is next week, and Donald Trump has a rally on Saturday. Maybe he'll pick his running mates. And Biden has a Lester Holt interview on Monday, and maybe he'll be really effective in punching back at Trump, which he has been in the past. Maybe he will be. And then all of a sudden, we're ten days from now and the convention is five weeks away instead of seven weeks away, and the clock could tick through because he has had a broad base of support, or at least a group of support from members of Congress, including the CBC and others who have stood by him. The other path is that vulnerable House and Senate members are so concerned that it drives people like Pelosi and close advisors of the presidents who read polls to say, you have been a tremendous president. You have kind of exceeded any expectation in the best possible way and defied so many odds. And if you continue running, it could hurt our prospects of the House and Senate, and you don't have a path to victory. I don't know. The polling that I have seen does not say that, but there is, that is another path. And I don't think we know in this moment where it's going to go.

Time. You know, I think part of what's happening right now is things are being scheduled to gain them more time. And if you're them, that's a smart strategy, right? Yeah, because you are. He's gonna have an interview with Lester Holt. Let's see the interview with Lester Holt. Then it's the republican convention. Oh, this guy's so crazy. And there's only one person who's beaten him. They have done, on a staff level, very effective job of, like, circling the political wagons. So it is possible that a couple weeks pass and then it is too late to make a change if it changes the right path forward.

Jon Favreau
Well, on that note, Jen Psaki, thank you so much for being here.

Jen Psaki
What a time to be alive. What should we organize next? Should we coordinate on it?

Jon Favreau
But. Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's great. Yeah, we should be planning. That's a great idea, Jen. Thank you so much. I don't know, maybe I'll do. Yeah, I guess I'll do my fridge, you do your closet. I think that's what's next.

Jen Psaki
I think that's right. I'm in.

Send pictures for evidence.

Jon Favreau
Democracy live 2024. It's an event where Jen will see if democracy is in fact live in Brooklyn.

Jen Psaki
People can buy tickets. It's not just me. Rachel Maddow, Chris Hayes, Reid. All the people will be there.

Jon Favreau
They got Maddox, they got Reed, they got Hayes, they got Psaki. What an event.

They got Wagner. All right, thank you, Jack O'Donnell. They got O'Donnell.

The list is unending.

It's. It's Coachella for whatever the fuck we took, what we do.

Jen Psaki
Political nerds. Come on.

Jon Favreau
Yeah, that's right.

Jen Psaki
Love it. Great talking to you.

Jon Favreau
Two quick things before we go. Look, as we try mightily to defeat the Conservatives here at home in the UK, they've managed to eject the Conservatives after 14 years of misrule. And you can hear more about it in the latest episode of Pod Save the UK. On Friday, they released a special with everything you need to know about the snap election and what a new government and a new prime minister means for the UK and beyond. Imagine that, a country having an election in a matter of four months. It is possible. Last week, they also officially launched their YouTube, so you can follow them along by searching for Podsave the UK on YouTube and make sure you follow. Also, former White House social secretary Disha Dyer recently joined Hysteria's Alyssa Mastromatico for a great discussion about imposter syndrome, public service and the simpler times when Donald Trump was just an annoying reality tv show host. Head on over to hysteria to listen and make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. That is our show for today. Thanks so much to Jen for joining us. Dan and John are back with a new show on Friday morning. And, you know, see you out there. In the in the in the Biden wars, I guess.

F
If you want to get ad free episodes, exclusive content, and more, consider joining our friends of the Pod subscription community@crooked.com. friends. And if you're already doom scrolling, don't forget to follow us at Pod save America on Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content, and more. Plus, if you're as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Olivia Martinez and David Toledo. Our associate producers are Sol Rubin and Farah Safari. Reed Sherlin is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis writing support by Hallie Kiefer. Madeleine Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt DeGrote is our head of production, Andy Taft as our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hailey Jones, Mia Kellman, David Tols, Kiril Pallaviv, and Molly Lobel.

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Plus, as a chef and a restaurant owner, Im as meticulous about my cookware as I am about my ingredients. Thats why I love made in cookware. Each pan they make isnt just designed to perform, it's crafted to last. As a mom, I love that I can trust made in. It's made from the world's finest materials so I can feel good about what I'm feeding my family. I'm chef Brooke Williamson and I use made in cookware.

Jen Psaki
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Is the Biden Dam Breaking?

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1: Opening Remarks

2: Interview with Jen Psaki

3: Political Strategy Discussion

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