A Front Row Seat to Trump's Trial

Jon Favreau
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Audie Cornish
Code crooked smart journalism fascinating topics, words that describe CNN's podcast the assignment with Audie Cornish. Last year, the army missed its recruitment goal. It had 65,000 spots to fill and came up 10,000 short of that target. Why is it so hard to recruit? How's the Pentagon responding? And how are the voices of service members on social media shifting the balance? Listen to the assignment with Audie Cornish wherever you get your podcasts.

Jon Favreau
Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

Dan Pfeiffer
I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

Jon Favreau
On today's show, Marjorie Taylor Greene will force a doomed vote on tossing Mike Johnson from the speakership. President Biden and Vice President Harris seize on Trump's comments about letting states monitor women's pregnancies as the abortion ban in Florida goes into effect and Democrats in Arizona repeal the 1864 ban. And later, legal scholar and former White House ethics lawyer Norm Eisen, our old friend, stops by to talk about his front row seat to Donald Trump's Manhattan trial and all the rest of the week's legal news. But first, Donald Trump used his one day off from sleeping at his criminal trial to hold two campaign rallies in Wisconsin and Michigan. Just one day after Judge Mershon held him in contempt of court for violating his gag order and threatened him with jail time. Trump responded by calling the judge crooked and corrupt. He also said the trial is bullshit. He did avoid attacking the actual witnesses, though, but he had plenty of other targets. He called Chris Christie a fat pig, said he might not accept the results of the 2024 election, accused pro palestinian protesters of being, quote, paid actors, and characterized all of this as, quote, having a little fun on the campaign trail. Here's what Trump's idea of fun sounds.

Dan Pfeiffer
Like to every college president.

Donald Trump
I say remove the encampments immediately, vanquish the radicals and take back our campuses for all of the normal students who want a safe place from which to learn.

And you know, you saw it last night. That's one good thing that really happened. You saw it last night. Because New York was under siege last night. It was a beautiful thing to watch. New York's finest, crooked Joe, is now reportedly planning. This is wonderful news for you people in Wisconsin, to bring massive numbers of Gazans from the Middle east or live to your american towns, your towns and villages.

Your towns and villages will now be accepting people from Gaza and various other places, Yemen, lots of other places.

Joe Biden seems to determine to, he's just determined to create the conditions for an October 7 style attack right here in America. It's going to happen. Under no circumstances should we bring thousands of refugees from Hamas controlled terrorist epicenters like Gaza to America. We just can't do it.

Jon Favreau
All right, so the next day, in what seemed like another universe, President Biden had this to say about the campus protests.

Joe Biden
We are not an authoritarian nation where we silence people or squash dissent.

The american people are heard.

In fact, peaceful protest is in the best tradition of how Americans respond to consequential issues. But, but neither are we a lawless country.

We are a civil society.

An order must prevail. There's the right to protest, but not the right to cause chaos.

People have the right to get an education, the right to get a degree, the right to walk across the campus safely without fear of being attacked.

Let's be clear about this as well.

There should be no place on any campus, no place in America, for antisemitism or threats of violence against jewish students.

There is no place for hate speech or violence of any kind, whether it's anti semitism, islamophobia, or discrimination against Arab Americans or Palestinian Americans. It's simply wrong. There's no place for racism in America.

Jon Favreau
So slightly different takes from those two.

So Trump hasn't really talked much about the war in Gaza beyond answering reporters questions. And his basic take has been Israel should be able to do whatever they want, but just they should do a better job hiding all the death and destruction from the rest of the world. He thinks it's a pr problem. He also has a personal beef with Bibi, because Bibi Netanyahu recognized that Joe Biden won the election. So that's what his thoughts on Israel when he's asked. Now, though, in both Michigan and Wisconsin, at these rallies, he is making attacks on the protests, the protesters and Palestinians a more central part of his message, and sort of refugees and immigrants writ large. What do you think he's up to there?

Dan Pfeiffer
It's not particularly subtle, I'll tell you that. No, for all of, like, the dumb shit Trump says, all the rabbit holes he goes down, the petty fights he picks with people, there has been, he has been remarkably disciplined in a larger meta narrative about his candidacy going all the way back to 2016, right back to the very first speech he gave when he came down that escalator, which is that the world is a scary, chaotic place.

Danger is coming to America, to your home. And even though you may not agree with everything I say or everything I do, you may find me uncomfortable in some ways, but I am the one person who is strong enough to protect you. And so the more he can bring the, this image of chaos of, to America, to this campaign, to put that in people's minds, he believes that will benefit him in this election. It's like, it's not subtle. It's incredibly racist. It's incredibly dangerous to say that this is bringing an October 7 style attack to America, to demagogue refugees and talk and try to make them seem like scary terrorists, as he has done with immigrants, as he does on some of the other issues. But that's what it is. It is he and the protests dominating the conversation here have, I think, allowed him to fuse sort of his world as dangerous, and America is coming apart at the seams into one message, is why I think he's now taken the step to actually talk about it more. It because he has been worried about trying to navigate the two challenging parts of the republican base, which is, one, the very pro Israel right wing, and then the american, the isolationism part. And, and the protests allow, sort of allow him to ally that conversation and just sort of weaponize it to his benefit.

Jon Favreau
Yeah. And also, by the way, he's dealing with, you know, border crossings have been down, and so he's not as able to take advantage of that issue and chaos at the border. And so now he's got the protests. And also that's why he's connecting the in the weirdest way possible, the border with the protests. He was saying that the protesters are paid actors trying to distract us from the southern invasion of immigrants from the Middle east and China and Africa.

And look, it is a, it's absolutely a political campaign move.

He doesn't really care about Gaza or Israel that much. He does care about people who are angry or afraid or even just unsettled by all the protests. And he wants to tell them he's with them, he'll stop them by any means necessary. He thrives on creating an us versus them narrative. And them is always foreign invaders or treasonous radicals or liberals. Right? And so he's got to other eyes, people, which is what he's been doing with these protests, too. I mean, it's his favorite thing, right? Like, this is his absolute wheelhouse. But I don't think it's just a campaign.

It's not just a campaign move, either. I mean, he has, if, you know, if you've seen footage of police arresting protesters, you know that some of these officers, like, don't really need encouragement from the president to get tougher, but they're gonna get a lot more than encouragement from Trump if he wins. He has talked about ordering police and military to shoot protesters, to shoot suspected shoplifters, not with rubber bullets, with real bullets. He wants mandatory stop and frisk in every city. He wants to withhold federal funding from police officers who refuse.

He wants to send in the National Guard and the military to use against protesters and to hunt down immigrants. And we didn't play it. But when Biden walked away, someone, you know, Mike Johnson has been saying, President Biden's got to send in the national Guard. The Congress has been, you know, other Republicans in Congress have been saying that clearly Trump wants to do that. Trump's planning to do that if he wins again. So that's on the agenda. And, you know, if you're upset with what's happening to the protesters right now, and some of the scenes are extremely upsetting, it can and will get much, much worse under Donald Trump.

And he's telling.

Dan Pfeiffer
And you can apply that to every single issue.

Jon Favreau
Right, right. And it's not to say that it's great now, but it is. It can get worse. It can get worse. He's talked about the insurrection act, upset that the military didn't, you know, shoot the protesters in front of the White House back after the George Floyd protests. So like I said, these guys don't need more encouragement from someone telling them to, to knock some heads, you know, so what did you think about Biden's decision to give remarks on the protests? And, like, how did you feel about the message?

Dan Pfeiffer
I listened. I did this thing where I just watched them in real time without looking at my phone.

And my take was, what? I know, I know, I know. It just. It just happened to be that. That's how I did it. And you got to start with the.

Jon Favreau
Tweets and then work your way back. Come on.

Dan Pfeiffer
Well, maybe I should have, because.

And my take was, this was a well delivered, well reasoned response to a very complicated situation where people. There are incredibly strong feelings on both sides for legitimate reasons, for, like, legitimate passions about a very serious issue. Both what is happening in Gaza, obviously, then the response from the police, disproportionate in many, many cases, and then also to people reacting to examples in rhetoric and sign, antisemitic signs and violence that has. That has been part, even if it's isolated incidents, but are happening in and around some of these protests. And so, very complicated thing. I thought the president delivered incredibly well.

Then I did the thing I often do, which is I open up twitter and I saw that no one liked it. Everyone was mad about it. People were mad on both sides. And maybe. Maybe there was no. There is no message that could navigate all of that and keep everyone happy. Right. Because there are elements of it. He used the word disorder, um, which many people disagreed with. And I understand why people have that disagreement, because civil disobedience can be disorderly, um, and that it's different than violence and law breaking. But on its whole, I thought it was the right message. Now, the decision to do it, I think the president was right to go out and talk. This is one of those, you know, so little breaks through to the public these days. We talk about this all the time. It's just there. There's political junkies like us live in one world, and the rest of the country lives in a completely different one. This one is breaking through, um, because it's happening on college campuses, because the elite media loves nothing more than to cover what happens on college campus in particular. It's an Ivy League school. Then they are deeply in on it. Um, there's a lot of local press around this because it. Even if the situations are not as well known or even as. Even as large as they are, maybe at UCLA or Columbia or elsewhere, there. There are protests on lots of colleges around and then on social media. These videos are everywhere.

Jon Favreau
Right?

Dan Pfeiffer
They're being pushed by both sides. They're being pushed to show the level of dissent that is happening. There's being the responses. The police response went viral. And so everyone's talking about it. So it's right for the president to do it. But ultimately, as you sit there, from the political strategist point of view, like, if we are talking about this, like, sometimes you have to talk about things that aren't, that aren't in your issue, your chosen issue set. And this is one of those moments. But another day of news about this is something that probably made the Trump campaign very, very happy.

Jon Favreau
Yeah, I mean, look, I think the most effective thing Biden could have said to get to make the protests go away was that, you know, he brokered a permanent cease fire in Gaza or that he told Bibi Netanyahu that he refuses to support Israel anymore if they decide to go invade Rafa, which Netanyahu said he wants to do whether there's a deal or not. And I think until either of those things happen, I don't see the protests going away. So that's, I have a big disagreement with him there. But I do think as you're sort of parsing the speech, it is a really tough line to walk because I think the line between what counts as peaceful protest and what doesn't is a hard one to draw. Like violence obviously isn't peaceful protest. Threatening violence obviously isn't peaceful protest. Destruction of property is obviously against the law. Occupying buildings, encampments, like, I think those are legitimate forms of protest and civil disobedience. But if there are rules and laws against that kind of protest, and if you've been warned about breaking those laws, then part of civil disobedience is accepting the penalty for that. I mean, that's what Doctor King said, right? He said that you should accept the penalty and you should do so civilly, not uncivilly. Right? That was sort of the foundation of his belief in the civil rights movement.

And of course, the civil rights activists were not treated civilly, but certainly they acted civilly. Look, I don't think that means that cops should fucking fire rubber bullets at you or tase you or beat the shit out of you, but that's a whole separate problem. And so, look, I think that Biden needed to communicate to people that we need to have, like, the right of peaceful protest in this country is sacrosanct. And, like, that's just very important. And people have, like, strong feelings about this war. And if they want to go put themselves on the line for those beliefs, then they absolutely should. And they should have the right to do that. And the fact that we had this, like, militarized response isn't fucking great. But also, like, you can't look at some of the scenes of, not just the scenes of vandalism because vandalism is vandalism. Right. But like, this is unique. And this is unlike, I think, in Vietnam, the Vietnam protests, unlike the civil rights protests, where you have, you basically have a marginalized group or people protesting on behalf of a marginalized group that also, and we talked about this before, there's like moments of anti semitism here, which is, there's another marginalized group is feeling threatened. Right. And I don't think we've seen that here for a while based on the protests. And so that's why you see these, like, protesters and counter protesters. And I do think that's why it feels so raw and why it feels so tough and probably why Biden stepped in to speak today.

And also, you know, he's going, he's speaking at the Holocaust memorial next Tuesday, I believe, and he'll be talking more about anti semitism there. And I'm sure he'll probably have more to say about Gaza as well.

Dan Pfeiffer
Like, this is very challenging. The president is being cross pressured in several ways. He's being pressured to speak out about the very visible uptick in anti semitism, not just out of these protests, the uptick in Islamophobia that we are seeing. He's being pressured to talk about the disproportionate police response. He's being pressured to talk about the isolated incidents of vandalism and violence are happening on american campuses that are canceling classes and canceling graduations. And so he's trying to take all of that and put it into one set of remarks. And as you pointed out, the pro, the issue, the fundamental issue here is a policy one.

Jon Favreau
Right.

Dan Pfeiffer
Until you address that, none of the words are going to address it, I think. So this was a tough call. It was not an easy task, but I think the president was right to speak about it.

Jon Favreau
Yeah. And look, and, and we can talk about, we can debate protests. We can debate all this stuff. But like the, the core issue, the reason there are protests in the first place, the reason there are crackdowns on the protests, the reason Trump's out there doing what he's doing at those rallies, the reason Biden had to speak today is because the war continues and no one has been able to end it. No one has been able to force Bibi Netanyahu to end it. And I don't think Joe Biden has used some of his leverage to get more aid in, and I know they're trying to work on a deal right now, but he has not used all the leverage that he has to try to end this war. So I think when that happens, and hopefully it does happen soon, that's when we'll start to see the protests actually go away.

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Dan Pfeiffer
You know, the best way to do.

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Jon Favreau
At the Michigan rally, Trump also thanked the conservative Supreme Court justices for overturning Roe v. Wade. And in Wisconsin, he offered up an early take on how all these abortion bans are playing with people. Let's listen.

Donald Trump
A couple of states, I won't mention, but a couple of states really surprise people. But basically the states decide on abortion and people are absolutely thrilled with the way that's going on.

Jon Favreau
Absolutely thrilled. That's just rave reviews for Dobbs.

Dan Pfeiffer
That's what I keep hearing from.

That's what all the polls say, right?

Jon Favreau
Yeah. From the six justices on the Supreme Court. Yeah. It's thrilled. Like they are in Arizona, where republicans have been running terrified from the 1864 ban that a court let go into effect. So much so that a few of them, few of the Republicans in the Arizona legislature just joined with Democrats in voting to get it off the books. Governor, democratic Governor Katie Hobbes assigning that law today, that sound you hear is a relieved Carrie Lake holstering her Glock.

But on the same day, Florida's six week ban went into effect, which was why Kamala Harris was there this week giving a speech where she mentioned Trump 21 times.

And the Biden campaign also released a new ad called Prosecute.

It's a seven figure ad buy that's running in all the swing states and I guess this weekend during the Kentucky Derby. Here it is tonight, Donald Trump's new.

Dan Pfeiffer
Comments on abortion, saying that some states might choose to monitor women's pregnancies to possibly prosecute women who violate abortion bans.

Audie Cornish
Two years ago, I became pregnant with a baby I desperately wanted. And I learned that the fetus would have a fatal condition and never survive because of the new laws in Texas, I had to flee my own state to receive treatment.

Donald Trump took away our freedom. We need leaders that will protect our rights and not take them away. And that's Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

Jon Favreau
So let's start with Arizona. Good that they repealed the extreme 1864 ban, but they still have a 15 week ban on the books. How do you think this changes the politics around abortion in Arizona and for Trump? Or does it?

Dan Pfeiffer
I don't think it changes the politics for Trump at all. Right. Where he is, where he is now, where he was before, which is he is the person walking this planet singularly most responsible for overturning Roe v. Wade. He has made a host of comments, some of the ones you just referenced, which suggests just how extreme he would be on abortion. He has said through his leave it to the states policy that he is a de facto supporter of even the most extreme bands, like the one in Florida, and that if he were to be elected, you could, he would be a supporter of Arizona passing a similar law again, we also know that Democrats have a little bit of an uphill battle to try to make voters understand just how extreme he is on abortion. That was true in the Arizona before the Arizona decision. That was true after it, and it's true after the law was repealed in the state of Arizona. I think there is some sense that that law really focused people's minds on the issue of abortion, that it was going to put that top of mind for lots of voters, that we believe that to be better for Democrats. I don't think this changes it that much because there is very likely to be an abortion referendum on the ballot in Arizona under all scenarios. And so as long as that is the case, I think abortion will be a incredibly important part of the political conversation and that Donald Trump and Carrie Lake will have to answer for that on a near daily basis.

Jon Favreau
Right. And also, you know, it was a few Republicans that joined with Democrats to get rid of the ban. We have an election coming up and, you know, Arizona Republicans are just a few votes away from reinstating the 1864 band. Right. And so this election matters a lot. And like you said, the referendum is also going to keep it top of mind for people. Love it. And Tim talked a bit about this on Wednesday's pod. But I would venture to guess that Trump saying in his time interview that he let states monitor women's pregnancies is a policy that probably doesn't land too well with the vast majority of voters in this country. But, you know, you are the host of polar coaster. So what do you think?

Dan Pfeiffer
Yes. Well, let me look at all the, let me, let me dial up, dial up some poll numbers and see what this says.

Let's take a walk down memory lane for a second. Do you remember in 2012, the leading contender to be Mitt Romney's vice presidential pick was not Paul Ryan, it was a man named Bob McDonnell, who was the very popular governor. I don't remember Virginia. He was a very popular governor of Virginia.

And Virginia was at the point that was a huge swing state. If Obama could not win Virginia, it made the calculus to get in 270 very challenging. So the thought was Romney would pick McDonald, he would win Virginia, he would present the United States. But in the run up to admit Romney making his decision Virginia Republicans tried to pass a law under McDonald's leadership, tried to pass a law that would require every woman who wanted an abortion to have a, and I'm using their words, not mine, a transvaginal ultrasound before they could.

Jon Favreau
Now I do remember this. Yes.

Dan Pfeiffer
And that law was so unpopular that they couldn't pass it. It created a national scandal and it completely sunk Bob McDonald's political career.

Now, states monitoring women's pregnancies, government, state governments monitoring women's frenzy, makes that law look popular. It is. You would have to design in a lab something to be as unpopular and fucking weird as what Trump is suggesting here. I mean, God bless the Biden campaign for going up as quickly as they are. This is exactly, that was very quick. It was great.

Jon Favreau
I was like, wait a minute. This is not a digital ad. This is a seven figure buy in the swing states. I was wondering if they, like, had another ad and they just added the newscast. They did the modern it.

Dan Pfeiffer
Isn't that the old ad, they just spliced it in.

Jon Favreau
I think it's part of the old ad.

Norm Eisen
I'm sure they have a lot of.

Jon Favreau
Footage in the threw in David Mirror at the top there.

Dan Pfeiffer
As one does.

Jon Favreau
As one does in an ad. Yeah, but no, I imagine they heard what we all did or read what we all did. Whatever you do with Time magazine, I.

Dan Pfeiffer
Tell you what you don't do, you don't see it on the newsstand.

Jon Favreau
I saw some x time reporters getting mad at you for, for pointing that out to him. I mean, just, it just, I mean.

Dan Pfeiffer
It'S just like, have some self awareness, people. The point of Time magazine was it's being on the COVID was it sat on the newsstand and that people would see you on the COVID even if they weren't buying it.

Jon Favreau
I guess there's still newsstands at airports, right? I guess sometimes you walk around the city, you can see some, I don't know, I don't know where people are seeing time. They're not, they're not. They're not seeing time.

Dan Pfeiffer
I mean, I wish Time magazine was a great entity. I wish we still lived in a world where it mattered. It does not. The fact that Donald Trump did an 83 minutes interview with a relatively irrelevant print magazine to just drop opposition research for the Biden campaign. It was a weird decision, but I guess we should be grateful for it.

Jon Favreau
I will say it's also an example of, like, everyone won. You know, a lot of reporters have tried to. How do you interview Donald Trump? Like, how do you really get him. You know, and I do think that asking him just simple questions about policies that are going to elicit an answer like this one did is the way to go. Because, like, all he said was, like, what do you think about states that might do that? And in Donald Trump's lizard brain, right? It's just states. It's all up to the states. It's all up to the states. So he cannot bring himself to weigh in in any way on the substance of this debate, this policy debate, because he has no fucking idea what he's talking about. And someone finally just got him to say, I leave it up to the states. And now he thinks that's his get out of jail free card. And, you know, it's. Then he lands in a situation like this where he's now saying, yeah, sure, states can monitor women's pregnancies. Yeah, great idea. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. All right. With all the protests and abortion banning going on everywhere, you'd be forgiven for not noticing that Congress is back in session. Barely. And that's where we find our friend Marjorie Taylor Greene plunging ahead with her quest to topple Speaker Mike Johnson, despite having nowhere near the votes that she needs. That's because almost no one in her party supports the effort, including Donald Trump, and because House Democrats have said they'll join most Republicans in voting to kill the resolution and save Johnson.

On Wednesday, she held a press conference to explain herself and define herself against what she's calling the uniparty.

Audie Cornish
If this vote fails, then the whole conference, the whole Congress, supports the uniparty. Let me tell you something. That is not a failure. It's a win for the american people, because that's a list of names.

Jon Favreau
You're on notice. Rest of Congress. Are we part of the uniparty? Is that.

Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, I think so.

Jon Favreau
We are. We're part of the unit party. That's cool. You think there's any method to her madness besides getting more followers and juicing her small dollar donations?

Dan Pfeiffer
No, I think you pretty much covered it.

Jon Favreau
That's it, right? She's just. She's just an attention merchant. Yeah. Well, I mean, she.

Dan Pfeiffer
I will say that she is obviously a whackadoodle, but she does have an intuitively sophisticated understanding of modern american politics, which is attention is power. If they're talking about you, you're winning. And this is what, just in any other world where she didn't do these things, she is a backbencher congresswoman in a safe seat from Georgia. We would never know who she was. We'd never speak about her. No one would raise money for her, and she. She's. She is staying in the spotlight. And so this is. This is a short and long term win for her, even if it is absolutely embarrassing and it's uncomfortable for her, for her colleagues, which, obviously, she doesn't really care about.

Jon Favreau
No, no. But I even wonder if all the attend, like, at some point when all of Magga world starts turning on you. And I don't know how. I don't know how that. Well, that goes for you. I mean, but it's like, it's just such a loser and a whiner. It's like, you know what? If you want to let Putin take Ukraine, if you want to shut down the government, like, go elect more right wing kooks, right? Like, you know, go. Go win yourself a house majority of other, you know, fascist crossfit instructors, and they can elect you speaker, and then you can get, like, a whole bunch done, you know? But, like, the idea that you don't get your own way just because you're a loud asshole, like, that's how you're gonna get your own way. That only works for Donald Trump.

Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, but if only there was an example of a loud, right wing asshole who could get their way without using traditional means of politics.

Jon Favreau
He's a special guy. He's a special guy, Dan. At the same event, Marge held up a blue hat. Not a red hat, a blue hat that didn't say maga. It said mooga, which Marjorie Taylor Greene said stands for make Ukraine great again. And then she spent several awkward moments trying to balance the hat on top of a. A blown up photo of Mike Johnson shaking hands with Hakeem Jeffries?

So, two questions on this. Can Marjorie Taylor Green successfully define this election as MAGa versus Mooga? And separately, are you seeing any indication that Republicans are paying for their Ukraine vote with the base, since there were a lot of them that actually voted for funding?

Dan Pfeiffer
I don't feel like muga really rolls off the tongue. Like, I'm struggling to say it, like there's a bad mouthfeel in it.

I am not seeing any real evidence that there is a revolt in the base. I think for a couple of reasons. The first and most important one is that Donald Trump is not inciting a revolt in the base. He's. He basically tacitly signed off on this if he wanted to sink this bill.

Jon Favreau
Once again, takes a special kind of loud asshole, you know?

Dan Pfeiffer
No. So he. He got. He. If he were out there hammering, there would be a revolt. So that's the main reason. The other reason is, I think ultimately, and this is true on both sides of the Ukraine funding debate, and I don't think this speaks particularly well of the body politic, but I don't think people care that much.

It's just. It's not one way or the other.

Jon Favreau
We.

Dan Pfeiffer
We are very detached from this and what people are not thinking about all the time. And so there are other reasons for the Congress to get mad at people for doing and not doing things. And this is like, a reporter reached out to me. I was like, how should Biden sell this? And I was like, I don't know that he has to. Like, I think it's just he did that. He got it done. And that's an example of getting something done, and that's worthwhile, but it's not. You don't think you have to be out there selling the Ukraine aid bill.

Jon Favreau
Yeah. The republican place has plenty to get mad at. Gas stoves, pronouns. Right. They got a whole long list. They don't.

Dan Pfeiffer
They are just. They're on to the next grievance. Yeah.

Jon Favreau
Yeah. I was gonna say, you take Ukraine off the list. They got plenty more where that came from. Okay, a couple quick things before we go to break. As you know, we wrote a book. Tommy Levitt and I have a book coming out called democracy or else how to save America in ten easy steps. Dan, we are already 34% toward our preorder target, and we're really grateful to everyone who's in that 34%. Thank you, guys.

Dan Pfeiffer
What's your target?

Jon Favreau
It's 100%.

Dan Pfeiffer
Good answer. Good answer. Can I tell you, I did a little research in preparation for this. A little research?

Jon Favreau
Sure.

Dan Pfeiffer
You guys are currently number seven on the elections subcategory on Amazon.

Jon Favreau
I didn't even know that I could check this. Yeah.

You're an experienced author.

Dan Pfeiffer
I've written some books.

Jon Favreau
Someone who's written two books.

Dan Pfeiffer
Three.

Jon Favreau
I've written three books. Yet another thing I'm gonna be checking every day.

Dan Pfeiffer
Well, here's the thing. Do you wanna know who's number one right now on the elections subcategory?

Jon Favreau
Oh, is it Christy nome?

Dan Pfeiffer
It is fucking Christy Noem. And so.

Jon Favreau
Oh, my God. We did not. No puppies. No puppies were murdered in the writing of this book.

Dan Pfeiffer
I would just say as a promise, I'm making sense to the 64% of you who have not helped us reach the pre order goal. You're letting Christy Nome win.

Jon Favreau
There is a story about how one of us, during a campaign accidentally hit a moose.

Not gonna tell you who it was. That's why you gotta get the book. See? Was that good?

Dan Pfeiffer
That's good.

Jon Favreau
That's good. Okay.

Dan Pfeiffer
Your better argument is not what's in. Look, we live in a time of negative partisanship. It's not what's in the book. It's how can you use the book to be Christina?

Jon Favreau
That's right.

The book's about how you can make a difference at every level of politics. It's a fun read. It's a quick read, and I think it has useful advice, whether you are just a casual listener of pod Save America or you're a political junkie just scrolling through Twitter all day like me. Either way, you're going to find some great advice and insights in this book, not only from us, but especially from all kinds of experts, strategists, organizers, activists, elected officials. Got a whole crew in there. It's great. Dan's in there. Amazing.

Dan Pfeiffer
We got, we got operatives, elected officials, smart people and Dan.

Jon Favreau
Dan. Yeah. Yes, we Dan, head to cricket.com books to pre order your copy now. Also, we want to support our nonbinary friends and co workers with some merch based off a very funny love it or leave it segment. It's a t shirt that reads they slash them's the rules. It's a highly requested merch item that's finally here. Head to cricket.com store to pick up a shirt when we come back. Norm Eisen.

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Jon Favreau
You've read his op eds. You've heard him opining on CNN as a legal analyst. You follow his scintillating Twitter threads. Perhaps you've read his excellent book, trying Trump. And if you're Dan and me, you've definitely heard him tell you all the things you're not allowed to do as a White House staffer. Please welcome back to the pod our friend Norm Eisen. Norm, what's up?

Norm Eisen
Hey, Favs. Hey, Dan.

Dan Pfeiffer
How are you?

Norm Eisen
Bringing back fond memories of all the advice I gave you, about half of which you listened to.

Jon Favreau
Hey, we're still free. You know, when you were giving all of us ethics training in those early White House days, did you ever think 15 years later you'd be sitting at the criminal trial of former President Donald Trump, who apparently pointed and scowled at you as he left the courtroom?

Norm Eisen
I did not. When we were together in the Obama campaign transition and White House think that I would be an eyewitness to the first ever criminal prosecution of a former american president. But when I came on pod Save America, I think in the first week of its existence to talk about Donald Trump's constitutionally prohibited acceptance of foreign government cash and benefits. Emoluments. I'll bet if we listen, that I said he's on the slippery slope to perdition.

Jon Favreau
I would not be surprised if you had said that. Let's, let's get into the trial. So you've been in the courtroom these past three weeks. What are your biggest takeaways so far?

And most importantly, can you confirm that the defendant has, in fact, been farting in the courtroom?

Norm Eisen
I like how you go to the critical constitutional issues, but it's the constitution of his digestion and not our nation's founding charter that you're most interested in. No, I will work my way from the lofty to the earthy.

Jon Favreau
Thank you.

Norm Eisen
In answering your question, Favs, the biggest takeaway from the trial is, number one, that you have the living embodiment of the american idea as Donald Trump sits below the judge and on a lower level than the jury.

In that somewhat faded environment of part 59, Judge Juan Mershon's courtroom.

Our country was founded on the idea that we don't want a king because no man person is above the law. Everybody is subject to the law. That's the american idea. And holding Donald Trump accountable for his original election interference, his 2016 effort to deceive voters to grasp power, is an expression of that idea. It's sad, you know, that we've had a president for the first time in our history, whose conduct has allegedly broken the law to a degree where he's criminally prosecuted. You do have Nixon. I've written in the news, York Times. I think Trump's misconduct here is on a par with, or perhaps worse than, Nixon's Watergate transgressions. Because he cheated. He allegedly broke the law, campaign finance, election and tax violations, to win that election in 2016 and then covering it up.

So you have the american idea in action. You have the gravity of the offenses, and then, you know, you have the physical weight on Donald Trump.

I can tell you that it is bearing down on him the trouble that he's in.

I sit where I can watch him, mercifully, not where I can smell him, but where I can watch him.

And, you know, some days you feel. You almost feel bad for the guy because the judge chastised him one day for acting out. And, you know, Trump was like Peck's bad boy. He hung his head, he looked down in his lap. He's bowed over more. He's bent. It's almost like the scoliosis of justice.

You know, as he comes in and out of the courtroom, you see him hunched over. So it is taking a profound toll, and he's not happy about it. And, you know, he, when he saw me twice last week, he expressed that in, you know, I was the target of his ire.

Jon Favreau
Do you, lucky you.

Dan Pfeiffer
Do you think he recognizes you from CNN or he just smells you out as someone who is, who knows ethics, and he therefore finds you personally distasteful.

Norm Eisen
My engagements with Trump date back to that famous 2012 White House correspondents dinner. There's a picture of me. I was seated at the Washington Post table, as was he, and there's a picture of me laughing my tush off right next to him as he's got that Mussolini glare when President Obama was roasting him.

Jon Favreau
Well, we got him. We got him, didn't we?

Norm Eisen
Yeah.

You know, I'm not sure where this.

Jon Favreau
Cycle of vengeance is.

Norm Eisen
Like the Godfather movies, where will it end?

So there's that. And then I did advise both transitions in 2016, as I do every cycle on the same issues that the three of us worked together on keeping things ethical. Obviously, he didn't exactly take my advice.

I was ejected from that transition summarily with the Chris Christie crowd. So that's the second thing. But I think it's a combination of the first impeachment and his hate watching. He's reportedly a very dedicated hate watcher of CNN. So that's probably most of it.

Dan Pfeiffer
When you sitting there in the trial, when you're not smelling Trump or being scouted by Trump, you're watching the prosecution make their case.

What, how do you think they're doing? Are they doing an effective job? And if you were trying this case, what's the one thing that would worry you about the evidence?

Norm Eisen
I do think the prosecution has done an effective job, and the defense has had very good moments, too. If Donald Trump would just let his lawyers do their job instead of forcing them reportedly be more aggressive, the defense, I think, would be putting on a very good showing here. The most worrisome part of the case is that when you look at the witnesses, I think David Pecker and Keith Davidson, who have been the two star witnesses so far, they're not what you'd call highly savory individuals. You would not be excited. Oh, great. I'm going on a barge tour of european canals, and I've got the room next to David Becker and Keith Davidson. I mean, one guy is a preeminent sleaze merchant, pecker, second perhaps only to Larry Flint, whose name came up because he was bidding for stormy Daniels.

And, you know, Davidson is a leading purveyor of celebrity scandals and hush money. So if I'm the prosecution, it's a little bit like, you know, it's, you know, will the jury believe those witnesses? That would be my anxiety. But, Dan, the prosecution has a very, has built a very clever case in response to that because everything in the case corroborates everything else. So you would have to believe that everybody's lying and all the documents are lying. And we were listening to audio recordings today that those are fabricated and that Michael Cohen, on his own, paid for the stormy Daniels story and was never reimbursed. And there's a pile of documents proving he was reimbursed. So I just, I think the coherence of the case is going to carry the day with the jury. The other thing that I would be most worried about, I wrote about this for CNN. I'm doing a trial diary for them, so I do a couple of entries a day.

Donald Trump does not want to persuade twelve jurors. He wants to persuade one juror. He's searching for one angry juror and for a hung jury, which he will proclaim as a great victory.

So that would be my anxiety, that there's a trojan horse on the jury who's going to do what we call jury nullification, ignore the evidence, ignore the law in favor Trump, or one Trump supporter who just sees this proof differently. So those are some of the main anxieties, but I think the prosecution is.

Jon Favreau
Solving for, for those speaking of the jury, you can obviously see their reactions as the trials unfolding.

What has that told you about anything about how they're thinking about this?

Norm Eisen
It's a very educated jury, unusually so for any. I've been trying cases for over 30 years and have been in and out of courtrooms for almost 40.

Pre law job when I got out of college. In fact, I had a legal internship when I was in college. So long, long decades in courtrooms. I've never had a jury with a higher educational level in any of my cases than this jury. Almost, almost everybody has a college or higher degree, and you've got lawyers on there. So it's a smart jury and it shows very attentive.

Unlike the defendant, we haven't talked about his other bodily function, his penchant for napping. Unlike the defendant, they're awake and alert.

I'm not sure what the generationally appropriate television references are, but the trial by design is like a combination of dynasty of primetime soap opera and Columbo.

Jon Favreau
I can assure you those are not the correct.

Norm Eisen
Yeah, I figured. I figured at least I have my self awareness.

Jon Favreau
But you gave it her.

Norm Eisen
I have my self awareness.

And so even when you have these more mundane witnesses who are explaining how the documents came into evidence or how they unlocked Michael Cohen's cell phone pursuant to a search warrant and got these tapes off of him, the jury is paying attention. Many of them requested notepads. They're writing and keeping track of things.

And even in the more routine parts, you know, focus. So that's a good sign for a prosecutor, right? You don't want the jury to tune out. Now, what the jury doesn't know is the reason we have to go through all of these evidentiary rigamaroles is because Trump won't. It's, it looks to me like he won't stipulate to anything. So all of the usual agreements that you have in a trial, he's forcing the prosecution to prove up every piece of paper, every email, every text, and that's unusual and can wear a jury down. But so far, they're hanging in there. That's a very good sign for the prosecution. And obviously, it's a Manhattan jury. So no wonder Trump is risking gag order violations by criticizing the jury. He's very upset that a bunch of Democrats are likely, Democrats are sitting in judgment of him.

Jon Favreau
You mentioned the possibility of a hung jury. That was obviously the outcome of the case where John Edwards was tried for a similar campaign finance violation, hush money in that case.

One big difference was it was more unclear whether John Edwards was paying the hush money to hide it from his wife or from the voters. It seems like the prosecution will have an easier time proving that it was from the voters in this case. Are there other sort of similarities in the case or other weaknesses in this line of, or in this type of case that sort of wore you like, what does the prosecution really have to prove here? And what do you think is different about this than the Edwards case? Aside from sort of the motivation for.

Norm Eisen
The hush money, the lay down of the law in New York state is different. They will have to prove to the jury, this is the critical issue, this where the case will be won or lost, that Donald Trump intended to conceal, aid, or commit another crime.

And in the opening statements, they put three possibilities before the jury that Donald Trump was intending to violate federal campaign finance law, New York criminal election influence law, or tax law, by misstating his reimbursements to Cohen as income to Cohen. They've really led with that campaign and election theme and every witness, the big witnesses so far, Pecker and Davidson, has said that this was being done to benefit the Trump campaign. Pecker was particularly important for the prosecution to bridge this chasm, fabs, because he said, we entered an agreement at Trump Tower, me, Trump, and Michael Cohen in August 2015 that we were going to catch and kill these stories. We were going to make payments to people to benefit the Trump campaign, to help the Trump campaign. Cohen will testify about Trump's intent. But you have Pecker, who is a corroborating witness, and the prosecution is carrying that intent forward. The difference with the Edwards case is the witnesses were weak. One of the key witnesses, Bunny Mellon, was too old and frail to testify. Another witness had passed away. And the witnesses they put on the stand did not give you this kind of devastating testimony that you got from Pecker. So in trials, my CNN trial diary I'm writing for today, that the thing that we lawyers say to each other when a case is going on and you bump into the trial lawyer, how is the case coming in? Right. We all have, as that noted litigator Mike Tyson said, everybody has a plan until they're punched in the face.

We all have plans when we go to court. How is the case coming in? This case is coming in strong, and it'll come down to Michael Cohen. But I think this jury, I've been studying this jury, I think this jury is going to believe Michael Cohen as judge and Goren did in the civil fraud case. He's a character, he's a colorful New Yorker, but this is a jury that understands New Yorkers. And so I think the case is coming in well, and that's the big difference.

Dan Pfeiffer
With Edwards, Trump continued his. He's under a gag order. He's been held in contempt. Fine nine, a whopping $9,000. I don't know what properties you have to sell to cover that bill, but he once, he once again, potentially violated by truthing about and talking about Michael Cohen, or apparently the person who all of democracy now depends on, based on your analysis here, um, what, how is there any way in which Judge Mershon can actually get Trump to adhere to the rules of this gag order? Short of sending him to prison, should he send him to prison, should that be on the table?

Norm Eisen
He may have to cut his gas x budget to pay those fines. Dan, um, the, um, by the, for the record, my ethics training for Dan and favs and about 1200 others, I tried to train everybody personally, was liberally leavened with that kind of borscht belt humor. They will test.

Jon Favreau
That's why we love you, Nora.

Norm Eisen
It was standing room only to get into those ethics trainings.

So, you know, I think that the judge is, is, is, has got him on a leash. Trump has not violated the gag order since these two orders for show cause were served. And I think that is because Trump knows it. Doesn't mean he won't do it, but he knows the next time he does it, he's at very serious risk of being stepped back, not for a long time. The judge saying, look, you're going to spend your evening in a jail cell, Mister Trump. You're going to have an overnight with the Secret Service in a jail cell.

And I think Trump is going to make a calculus. Is he, does he benefit more or harm himself more by being stepped back, even if it's only for a short time, if there's a 15th alleged violation, there's been 14th, 14 alleged so far.

Does he, you know, does, as he says, you know, is there going to be a little bit of martyr action? He says he's going to be a modern day Nelson Mandela.

And, and does he want to save that shot for a powerful impact, like when, you know, some. There's some moment in the case when he really wants to draw attention to it. I also think he's not keen to spend a night in a holding cell. That is not his desire.

But, you know, he certainly is not going to hold back out of respect for the jury, respect for the witnesses, respect for this court staff, or respect for the rule of law, he's going to make a calculation.

The fact that he hasn't erred again in the days since that second order to show cause dropped shows us that he's capable of holding back.

The question is, you know, what, what side of the line will his calculations fall on? If I were betting, I would bet he's gonna fire one more torpedo and, you know, take the. Take the consequences to make a point.

Jon Favreau
Yeah, I saw that he was asked after their trial today, Thursday, if he's gonna testify.

And he said, I can't testify because of this gag order, obviously is not true. Not how that works. I don't have a legal degree, but I know that's not how that works.

But it seems like there's no. You can't imagine a universe where he testifies or Todd Blanche and his team let him testify. Right?

Norm Eisen
Donald Trump is calling the shots on this legal team, not Todd Blanche or Susan Nicklaus or Emil Bove, all of whom are very competent lawyers. We would not have seen the gag order argument that we saw this morning where the judge basically asked the lawyers, why are you saying these things? I mean, the judge knew what was going on, that lawyers were being forced. In fact, since you ask fabs, Blanche went full Trump this morning because in his argument on the gag order, he started out by attacking the press, saying, it's their fault they're writing about this. So he criticized the press. Classic Trump. He then turned on Michael Cohen, again, a Trumpism. And he ended by complaining about all the Democrats on the jury when he was defending Trump's attack on the jury, to which the judge basically said, come on. So I think that, you know, I'm not sure the lawyers will be able to stop him. But the comment today probably shows that he knows he will be demolished on cross and he's willing to take his chances, roll his dice on that one Trojan Trump juror, the one jury nullifier.

He may think the case is, you know, he may think he has some candidates on that jury.

So not everybody on the jury is a pod save America listener, although I'll bet there's a bunch of them.

Dan Pfeiffer
We, they're, I hope not because they're not, they perjured themselves.

Norm Eisen
They're not listening to this episode. So they are following instructions on that jury.

Jon Favreau
That's good. That's good. Question about the, leaving this trial for a second question about the immunity case, you described it as one of the most important cases to appear before the Supreme Court oral arguments last week.

What did you think of the oral arguments and what kind of, what are you reading from the tea leaves?

Norm Eisen
The Supreme Court is not going to authorize Donald Trump to send SEAL team six out to commit assassinations because they might piss him off if he's reelected. And he'll send Seal team six to that. So they're not going to do that.

They've already approached the edge of complicity, and they'll be over the edge if they delay this case much beyond May 20. That would be the date on a par with the 14th Amendment case, Anderson, in which a decision was issued there. Donald Trump was actually on the ballot. There was no rush. They didn't want any cloud on his candidacy. I mean, how much more important is it for the american people to know if the man abuse the office that he seeks to recover to commit crimes or not? So if they go past match May 20, they will then have crossed the line of complicity.

And then the other question is, are they going to remand the case in a way that makes it impossible to get to trial before the election by setting up some test and requiring the judge to do fact finding under the test? Or are they going to take Amy Coney Barrett's amusings to heart and say, here's the test and we're applying the test May 20, we're sending it back down and here's what's left of the case, go to trial?

You know, unfortunately, I think the court is profoundly compromised. Certainly four of the judges who didn't even want to talk about what Donald Trump is actually accused of doing, right?

Thomas, who shouldn't even be on this case. His wife is a material witness in the January 6 investigation. That's insane. Alito, who's completely off his rocker. Who yelled at Obama in that state of the union where he warned that the danger of citizens United.

Favs, I might have worked with you on that line in the speech. I remember going back and fault, back and forth. No fault. I mean, it was right.

Jon Favreau
No, I just do what you tell me.

Norm Eisen
I think you had the last pen on that line, Favs.

Rahm called me the next morning. I thought early, early the next morning. I thought he was going to be upset with me. He's like, oh, my God. He's like, pour it on. Call every reporter. Pour it on. That's a good issue for us.

Jon Favreau
Doesn't sound like Rom.

Norm Eisen
And then Kavanaugh, Gorsuch. Gorsuch, who was in law school with me and Obama and Kavanaugh. They are not. They're complicit as far as I'm concerned. The question is, will the center hold and decide this case timely by May 20 and in a way that allows us to get to trial? If they don't, then they, too will be a part of handmaiden in Trump's attempted grab for an autocratic presidency. So that's what's at stake. And, you know, we'll see.

I've marked that date on my calendar, May 20.

Jon Favreau
Ok. All right.

Dan Pfeiffer
Well, the center hold, in the center is Amy Coney.

Norm Eisen
I know. I know.

Jon Favreau
It's, that's where we are.

Norm Eisen
I'm not sounding a clarion call of optimism here, Daniel. Yeah, but we'll see. Let's see what happens. Let's mark May 20 and let's see if they, you know, she's been a little, she's been a little less doctrinaire, so I don't know her. I know a bunch of the others, but people who practice law with her said she was non crazy, so we'll see. Well, she was hopping mad in the abortion case, you know.

Jon Favreau
Yeah, she, well, that, that's not surprising. That's not surprising. But Norm Eisen, thanks for joining Pod Save America as always. And we'll have to have you back as the trial continues. And we'll circle May 20 on our calendars, too, a date for the immunity case.

Norm Eisen
I'm here for you. Thanks for having me, favs. Dan. And thanks for what you do on pod save America. It's so important to all of us that you guys are out there. So thank you.

Jon Favreau
Thanks to Norm for, you know, informing us and entertaining us today. That was just fantastic. It was a norm Eisen tour de force, Dan.

Dan Pfeiffer
I mean, it was everything I thought it would be. And more.

Jon Favreau
Me too. Me too. I love norm. All right, everyone, have a great weekend and we'll be back with a new episode on Tuesday.

Dan Pfeiffer
Bye, everyone.

Jon Favreau
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A Front Row Seat to Trump's Trial

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Episode Summary

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Episode Chapters

1: Introduction

2: Witness Testimonies

3: Trump's Public Statements

4: Political Implications

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Transcript