Diddy's Attorney Benjamin Brafman Leaves Clues | PBD Podcast | Ep. 396

This episode features a detailed discussion with Benjamin Brafman, renowned criminal defense attorney, focusing on his high-profile legal cases, including his work with P. Diddy.

1. Brafman's career is highlighted by his representation of celebrities in major legal challenges.
2. The episode gives insight into the complexities and ethical considerations in high-profile legal defenses.
3. Brafman discusses his professional boundaries and decisions in choosing clients.
4. The legal nuances and public perceptions surrounding celebrity cases are explored.
5. Brafman shares his thoughts on the justice system and its interaction with high-profile individuals.

1. Introduction

Patrick Bet-David introduces Benjamin Brafman, discussing his reputation and notable cases. Patrick Bet-David: "So we got a special guest in the house today. When you think about criminal defense attorneys, there's a lot of names out there."

2. High-Profile Cases

Brafman discusses various cases, including his defense of P. Diddy and other celebrities. Benjamin Brafman: "The most high profile person I've ever represented was Dominic Strauss Kahn."

3. Legal Philosophy and Decisions

Insight into Brafman's decision-making process when taking on cases, particularly why he chose not to represent Weinstein at trial. Benjamin Brafman: "I didn't represent Harvey Weinstein at his trial. We parted company after a couple of months."

4. Reflections on the Legal System

Brafman reflects on the justice system's handling of high-profile cases, including his thoughts on recent political cases. Benjamin Brafman: "I reject outright that there is a conspiracy afoot, that the weaponization of the Justice Department is determined to destroy a presidential candidate."

1. Understand the importance of ethical considerations in legal practices.
2. Recognize the impact of media on legal cases.
3. Consider the long-term implications of legal decisions.
4. Stay informed about the legal system to understand high-profile cases better.
5. Always ensure proper legal representation in complex cases.

Patrick Bet-David sits down one-on-one with Diddy's attorney, Benjamin Brafman.
Benjamin Brafman is an American criminal defense attorney and founder of the Manhattan-based law firm Brafman & Associates. Brafman is known for representing many high-profile defendants, including celebrities, accused Mafia members, and political figures.

People

Benjamin Brafman, P. Diddy, Harvey Weinstein

Companies

None

Books

None

Guest Name(s):

Benjamin Brafman

Content Warnings:

None

Patrick Bet-David
30 seconds. Did you ever think you were made here? I feel I'm supposed I could take Queen victory. I know this life meant for me. Why would you bet on Goliath when we got bet?

David? Valuetainment. Giving values contagious. This world of entrepreneurs, we can't. No value.

They hate it. I run, homie. Look what I become. I'm the one.

Patrick Bet-David
Okay, so we got a special guest in the house today. When you think about criminal defense attorneys, there's a lot of names out there. You think about Robert Shapiro. I've had him on. We've had a great time together.

In an interview, some will say Alan Dershowitz, some will say F. Lee Bailey, which was one of my first interviews ten or twelve years ago. We had a great conversation together. Him and his 800 page book that he would sell for, I don't know what the price was. Five, $600.

We've had a lot of people, but today he is known as the best criminal lawyer lawyer in New York. The names, I'll give you that he's represented, you will recognize many of these names, from Michael Jackson to Charles Kushner to Dinesh D'Souza to Jay Cohen, to Sammy Dubo Garvano, which we've had him on the podcast before as well, multiple times, to Harvey Weinstein, to P. Diddy, to Jacob Arabo, to Philip Banks, New York City deputy mayor, to I don't know how many more names I can give you. The list goes on. The point is, this is the man they call when it comes down to high profile figures that are dealing with some technical criminal issues.

And it's great to have you on a podcast today. Thank you. Nice to be here. It's good to have you here. So I got a few things I want to go through with you.

Obviously, we'll talk about Diddy and what some things are going on with Diddy. That's something that's. You've represented him multiple times, whether it was back in 1990, now with the shooting, or if it was the, the Casey, the Cassie Ventura, within 48 hours, you guys got the deal done, $30 million, and the current one that he's going through. But I wanted to open it up with you. What are your thoughts with any comments you have with what happened with OJ Simpson just a couple of days ago, him passing?

Benjamin Brafman
Well, you know, to be honest with you, I was a little bit surprised because I really didn't know that he was that sick. Nothing with OJ Simpson comes as a surprise since he was arrested and charged. I think that verdict was a surprise. And since then, OJ has been in and out of the news, much of it not good. So I guess this is the ultimate.

Patrick Bet-David
Penalty he faced, Ben, when it was happening, when all of us were glued to the screen watching the whole thing. I was watching the other day, the amount of statistics that they're saying. They're saying the first time when he was in the Bronco and the police were chasing day for Domino's pizza because everybody in America was staying home, ordering pizza and wondering when they're gonna capture the guy, or the final day when, you know, everybody was glued to the screen to see if the verdict was gonna be guilty or not guilty. American businesses lost a half a billion dollars because nobody was going out there staying home. So many interesting stats that comes about with OJ.

Were you one that right off the bat, following the case, did you say, this guy's guilty? He didn't take his arthritis medication, and that's the reason why his hand didn't fit. How did you process the verdict at the end, once the decision was made, not guilty? Well, I was kind of stunned. You know, as a criminal defense lawyer, I wasn't glued to the screen.

Benjamin Brafman
I watched it from time to time. I think the prosecution in that case was at fault for him not being convicted. He was brilliantly represented by, among others, Johnny Cochran. He and I became close friends and colleagues following that trial. But at the end of the day, I think they over tried the case because I think they were trying to teach DNA to a jury of lay people.

And you don't need to do that in that case. The other fact that I think caused his acquittal was when Detective Furman had to acknowledge that he used the n word numerous times. And when he took the Fifth Amendment, I thought case was over. Yeah, I think. I think a lot of people are probably in the same place.

Patrick Bet-David
I've seen a lot of the different interviews being done with them. And one of the recent interviews, it was funny, was done by a guy. They run a very successful podcast, Nelk boys, full send. They asked him the question, you know, do you ever go to sleep wondering if they're ever going to catch the killer? And I don't know if you've seen this interview or not.

He says, I don't really want to talk about it. I don't really want to talk about it. There was a lot of people that were surprised that he was not guilty. Some of the people were happy that he was not guilty, and then years later, they flipped. But obviously it was something that a lot of us followed for many years to come.

So let's talk about Harvey Weinstein. You've represented a lot of interesting characters. Ben, what is your process when you get a call? I remember talking to Robert Shapiro and, or F. Lee Bailey or Allen or some of these guys.

They just like these complicated cases. What is it about these cases that ends up coming to guys like you? Well, I think when people in that league are in criminal trouble, I think they want to go to someone who has experience. I don't think they want a novice. I think they want people with a proven track record.

Benjamin Brafman
I didn't represent Harvey Weinstein at his trial. We parted company after a couple of months because he insisted on having a skirt, as he called it, to represent him. And I said, harvey, I can do a lot of things for you, but I just don't really want to become a woman. But, you know, when a powerful person is in trouble, I think they look for someone who's been around that block before, has a. A proven track record.

And I think the most high profile person I've ever represented was Dominic Strauss Kahn, who had been indicted and the case was ultimately dismissed. I mean, you know, that's probably more an interesting result than an acquittal. Getting an indictment dismissed by the district attorney's office, where person had already been indicted. And, Ben, when did you, when did you, when you first started working with Harvey? Did Harvey reach out to you?

Patrick Bet-David
Did you guys reach out to him? Had you worked together with him in the past before or. No, no, I never worked with him before. He was referred to me by someone else. I, quite frankly, don't remember who.

Benjamin Brafman
When I met with Harvey, and we sat down, had a meal, and then Harvey continued to call me. And I said, you know, harvey, you're an interesting guy, and I'm learning a lot from talking to you about movies and production. But I think you need to come to grips with the fact that you're going to be indicted. And if you want me to represent me, to represent you, we need to formalize our representation by assigned retainer agreement, which he did. It's rare, if ever, that I reach out to the person who's in the scope.

It's technically not appropriate. I think I'm beyond that in my career, thankfully. And people generally reach out to me. Makes sense. Wasn't there a story that came out with the Harvey Weinstein and helped me, correct me at any time?

Patrick Bet-David
I think I read a few different articles about this, even when it was going on and even recently, that was it him that asked you guys to have lawyers from your firm associates. To go represent the accusers. So you can get intel to come back and help you against the case with them. So you can have information. And then that was one of the reasons why the case had to be dropped.

That story is well written and documented other places. Was it him asking of you. Or was it something where some of the associates were taking initiative to get more intel? I think that story stems from what I consider to be unethical behavior. Of a former associate.

Benjamin Brafman
Who was not with the firm at the time. And it was a story where he ultimately conceded that I had zero involvement. And to be honest with you, it was long after my representation of Harvey had ended. But that associate, who has long since gone. Shows up like a bad penny several times a year.

Patrick Bet-David
Got it. Yeah. It's all because strategically, obviously, from a. Legally, I can't see that being legal. Right.

But strategically, I can see that being very helpful. If that intel can come back in. To give your client the leverage when you're negotiating. But obviously, the associate. This came afterwards as well.

When I've sat with a lot of different people, Ben, and you've sat with a lot of interesting guys. That one on one, like, relationship, day to day, trying to work with. Representing these guys. Did anybody you ever represent. Did you ever sit with someone, and you said, this guy here is cold, this guy's dark.

I feel weird being around him and representing a guy like this. I'm not sure I'm comfortable representing somebody like this. Or has it always been. No, it's my job. They're hearing for me to fight for them.

You know, no one really shakes me or makes me feel uncomfortable. Or even how dark they are. I just have a job to do, and I do it very well.

Benjamin Brafman
I'm not the morality police. And I don't pass judgment on what someone may or may not have done. Sam Gravano, who you mentioned, I only represented him for a couple of days, and then it ended. And to be honest with you, I keep being mentioned as his lawyer. And at the end of the day, I met him once.

It didn't go well. Let me leave it at that. And we parted company. But, you know, at the end of the day, when you read a piece about me, his name shows up. So it's unfortunate in some respects, because I wasn't his lawyer in any substantive time.

I interviewed him. He interviewed me. He liked me. I didn't pass judgment on what he was accused of doing. But shortly thereafter, we parted company for reasons I don't think I can go into.

But, you know, if you asked him and he told the truth, I think he would say that he liked me, but it didn't end well between us. Got it. And even. What year was this, by the way, with you and Sammy? It was right before the Gotti trial.

Oh, you're talking 1015 years ago. Oh, that could be longer than that, Ben. If it's. If it's the Gotti trial, that could have been. Yeah, that could have been a while back if you were.

Patrick Bet-David
If it was a Gotti case. So, you guys, technically, there was never an engagement, an exchange of money in place with you and Sami, where it doesn't qualify as you being his lawyer. I didn't consider him a client, and if he considered me a lawyer on his behalf, I can't answer for him. But, you know, I was retained briefly, and I worked for him for just a couple of days. Got it.

Okay, so it was a couple of days that you worked for him. Makes sense. Yeah. I've spent a lot of time with Sammy. Probably one of the best storytellers out there.

He can be very charming, charismatic, and he's been around the block and knows the mafia world like a historian. Like, he could be a professor teaching the history of mafia. But it's another one of those interesting characters represented. What was your involvement with the chin? Cause they have chin here, and chin is a legend in the mob world.

What was that like? Well, he was probably one of the most interesting people I've met in my legal career. I'm the one who ultimately convinced him to plead guilty to avoid having to go through another circus trial. He had lived his entire life under the guise of being mentally imbalanced. And at the end of the day, his family prevailed on him.

Benjamin Brafman
They did not want to go through another expensive proposition that was also very draining. He was old. He was sick. He ultimately died shortly thereafter. And I don't think he had the strength or the courage, if you will, to go through another knockdown, drag out slugfest, where it would be a battle of experts.

So I stood next to him when he ultimately acknowledged that he had essentially been demonstrating this charade, and he, in open court, admitted that it was part of his shtick, if you will. Makes sense. Yeah. Whenever you talk to any mobsters, that guy's name comes up as a real. Obviously, for some people, when I say chin, some people don't know what to google.

Patrick Bet-David
It's Vincent Chin Gigante, who was a boss, and he's a guy that played very low key, but behind closed doors was somebody that was feared and respected from the different families. So it's interesting you represented him as well. I guess if you're living in New. York, let me make a suggestion. I haven't had a person who was believed to be a member of organized crime in at least 20, maybe 25 years.

Benjamin Brafman
It was during a early period of my career, and some of the best lawyers in New York were involved in those cases. And quite frankly, those people went to trial. And that's where you learned how to try a case. You could cross examine 50 people in one of those cases, and you develop a reputation as being a good cross examiner, which I think I have. But I never wanted to be tagged as a mob lawyer, if you will, and I wasn't.

And, you know, my practice consists primarily of what I consider to be white collar criminal defense practice, where some of my clients are well known, well respected politicians, business people, attorneys, accountants. So if we're going to focus on my career, I just want to give you a heads up that the cases you mentioned, while interesting and the people are interesting, there's old cases. Yeah. And, you know, there's a part of this world that at first, when I interviewed F. Lee Bailey the first time, I was like, oh, my God, why would you represent these guys?

Patrick Bet-David
There's a job. Someone's got to do the job. So it's not like it's, some people work out of prison. Some people go to war and fight. Some people sell insurance.

Some people say, why would you ever sell life insurance? Who the hell in the right moment would ever sell life insurance? There's a job for a lot of different things to do, and we all got to take them and do our best when we're offered whatever situation we're into deliver. So, but I understand that I'm not passing any judgment here in regards to the current, you're in New York. Today is the day the president, number 45, is going through what he's going through with Stormy Daniels.

And you've seen the 91 cases, and you're hearing one side talk about that the government is using the DOJ and the justice system to attack a potential opponent. How do you process all the things that's going on? Are you supportive of the decisions they're making there and the way they're handling a New Yorkin like yourself? How do you process this whole, you know, handling of how they've treated Leticia James, how they've handled Donald Trump? Well, you know, I made it.

Benjamin Brafman
I made a decision several years ago to, you know, stay out of the Trump world, if you will. And I've abided by that decision. So if you want my comment on the cases, I think individually, some of the cases are more significant than others. I reject outright that there is a conspiracy afoot, that the weaponization of the Justice Department is determined to destroy a presidential candidate. I've been around too long.

There are too many people who would have to be involved in a process like that. But I know it's the hottest topic of discussion, especially in New York today, where the downtown of New York has been turned into a virtual circus. But, you know, if you want a technical question about jury selection or something like that, I'm happy to discuss it, but I really don't want to talk about, you know, Donald Trump in the various cases. I will say that based on the information I have, which comes primarily from the media, from the legal publications I read, the suggestion that all of these cases are part of one genuine conspiracy to destroy a presidential candidate. I just don't accept that that's based on intel you have, that you're saying.

It'S not based on intel. It's based on my experience in the criminal justice system goes back more than 45 years. I know Greg. I know that officer, prosecutor in that office for more than four years. And to suggest that, you know, they've managed to put together a team that only specific purpose is to prosecute a presidential contender, to me, is just doesn't make any sense.

And I point out that an independent grand jury indicted him. So who knows what happens in this trial? And I rejected invitations from every cable network and news station to be talking head about the case and to give my, if you will, expert opinion. And I just. I'm trying to stay away from that.

Patrick Bet-David
Yeah. I mean, since you said specifics, you know, the one part about having to pay $450 million, the 383, the 83 to that E. Jean Carroll, that she said, he never raped her. And even on Anderson Cooper was the funniest thing, where he's like, what is rape to you? Well, rape is a man's fantasy.

And then Anderson Cooper's like, this girl's weird. He's trying to get off. He says, you're fascinating. And then she goes on Rachel Maddow, and says, rachel, we're going to go shopping together with this money. A little creepy, a little weird.

I'm sure you're not the type of guy that wants to see your client celebrating doing something like that with the event not taking place and then also the other side. I'm in Florida here right now myself. I've lived in California 20 something years, five years Dallas, three years Florida, ten years in Iran, two years in Germany, a few years in the US army. And in here, when you go to Flagler's restaurant across the street from breakkers, I'm sure you've been to breakkers many, many times. And when you go to Mar a Lago and for the judge to say, that's an $18 million property and all the stuff that anybody that buys a house or property assessment, appraisal, no, you defrauded people from money, but everybody got their money.

That's a little bit of. Even Forbes said it's worth $450 million. Even CNN, after he was found guilty that he had to pay the money, even CNN came back and he said on a fire sale, he can sell this property for $250 to $350 million. There's a little bit of manipulation there. Why?

I'm sure a guy like me, I'm not a political guy, I'm a business guy, you sit there and you wonder, would I ever do business in New York? If you worry if somebody disagrees with your politics, what do you think about the way they handled and telling him and the rest of America that Mar Lago is only an $18 million property? Well, you know, Mar a Lago is an interesting place. I've never been there, but I've seen pictures of it. And, you know, the fact is that maybe that property was undervalued by the court.

Benjamin Brafman
But, you know, the heart of that case really revolved about the change in the square footage of his personal apartment from 10,000, you know, people around him went to jail for that discrepancy. So in the case that Leticia James abroad, who knows what's going to happen, you know, on appeal. But, you know, it's hard to accept the fact that almost everybody around him is either gone to prison or is coming out of prison or has been pardoned by him, but he's done nothing wrong. So I really don't want to get into a discussion about Trump. And listen, you're in New York, man, and you're a tough guy.

Patrick Bet-David
You're one of the best at the game. You've been around for decades. Everybody knows who you are. So when things come up like this, they're going to ask you. It's a natural question to ask, and I know it doesn't make you feel comfortable to ask that, and I can respect it.

But, Ben, you're not a lightweight. You're one of the best in the space here. So let's get into the issue of Diddy. Okay. And right now, I'm curious from your end, I talked to a handful of my guys, guys that are defending Diddy.

Okay. I think we just had a conversation with Suge Knight a couple days ago. He called him from jail, and we had a very friendly conversation. I just had dame dash here a couple days ago, and we had him on the podcast. I'm talking to a lot of guys on the hip hop side that are on Diddy's side.

They're defending him. So there's a few different stories here I'm hearing from people that don't support him to people that support him, that people that are neutral. Just want to know what the hell is going on here. Let's go through all of them. So one side is, well, these, these individuals, these names recently, right?

These names keep coming up, whether it's little Rod or, you know, you got what's her name? Jaguar, right? And Diddy stealing from Biggie before his murder. Or, you know, some are saying there's some videos in every single one of his rooms, that 50 cent, you know, some of these guys are every room. You go in there, you gotta be careful.

He's got a camera, even bodyguards of him, saying there's cameras in there. And they have so much footage on everybody that's been there or meek mill footage that's gone viral that a lot of people have watched. And Ndiddy's house is being raided. One in LA, one in Miami. He's getting on a plane where they taking equipment.

What's in the plane? At the same time he's having a conversation with Justin Bieber. We've all seen the video that he's tapping the chest to see if there's any kind of. Are you mic'd? Are you not?

And Bieber's going like this. I'm not usher talking about being at his house. Diddy's flavor camp when he was 13 years old, and the five, you know, 13 years old, you're living with a guy that's partying that hardcore at the peak, Cat Williams calling out Diddy. Some are calling him the epstein of the music and the music and the hip hop industry. Others are saying this whole thing is due to what happened with Ciroc because he had the 50% of the profits that he was owed to.

And that company is a 74, $77 billion company, and they owe Diddy $2 billion. This is why behind closed doors, they're targeting him, and that's what they're doing to him. So these are the things we've read. I'm not in it. You are.

Benjamin Brafman
What's. What's really going on with Diddy's case here, Ben? Well, I'm not representing him now. I represented him 20 years ago in the gun case with Jennifer Lopez in club New York. And as everybody knows, that case ended after eight weeks in an acquittal on all charges.

I represented him in the Cassie Ventura matter, and once she filed her complaint, the case was settled within 24 hours. And I'm bound by a confidentiality agreement. And in this current investigation, I'm just not his lawyer. And I read what you read, and I'm not prepared to comment on what are rumors or speculation or actual facts. I'm not in the midst.

I'm not learning anything from any inside source. So I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'm no longer his lawyer, and I was. And I was successful at it. And at the end of the day, I hope he weathers this storm. I'm surprised, because you represented him in 99 and you helped him, even though later on, there's been plenty of girls.

Patrick Bet-David
You know, Natania Rubin, who claimed she would. He would always brag that he did shoot, and she saw it, and he would brag to other people that he did do it. He kind of. He's always been famous for having a little bit of a big mouth, that he likes to brag about the kind of power he has, that he's almost like a untouchable gangster, that he can get away with anything. He's given that vibe even when he won the deal.

And then also when you represented him with the Cassie deal, within 48 hours, you guys, what we read, $30 million that she was able to get. Did he come to you to help him out with this at all, to represent him? Or you guys never had the conversation for you to represent him when he got raided? I really think that's a conversation I'd rather not have. I wish him well.

Benjamin Brafman
I saved him in 1999, and if I had not saved him, he would not have become maybe one of the most successful african american entrepreneurs in the history of this country. And now I only wish him well. The reasons for my not being in this case at this time are part of a privileged discussion, if you will. You know, I kind of knew you were going to say that because you're a professional and I'm the amateur on this side just asking innocent questions in my mind. It makes me, if I'm a speculator, I'm a guy that speculates, right?

Patrick Bet-David
I've been in the financial industry since the day before 911. I'm the finance guy. I'm the business guy. I'm the entrepreneur. If I'm speculating, and if I'm him, I got a guy that two times in a row has won for me 100%.

You're my phone call. But if I'm speculating, you just kind of said, this is not on me. I've helped you last two times. I can't help you here. I can visualize a phone call of him begging you to help him and support him because you're very, very good at what you do.

Very, very good at what you do. And I think at this point you were a little worried because this got a little bit too dark and maybe you didn't want to participate in this one. You don't have to answer this. It's just purely my speculation as a person on the other side that could, you know, wonder what's really going on here, because Cassie Ventura, and she is being said that she's now working within, you know, with the FBI and the feds after she got the 30 million. Again, rumors that we read about, right.

And 1999, the shooting, and he's been caught on video bragging about the fact that he did it and he got away with it. Maybe you've made the right choice if you said no to him. If you did, and even though you're saying that's confidentiality stuff that you can't tell the rest of us. But one technical question for you. I'm just curious to know if there's any similarities here.

Did Diddy, by any chance, ask you if he wanted somebody in a skirt like Einstein, like Weinstein, ask you about. He was looking for a score. Did he at all make any kind of request like that? No. Okay.

I wonder, because a lot of the weird, again, like you've read these videos, because if half of these things are true, man, that's a weird character. If half of these things are true, you know, if one after another after another, these types of things come up and it's ongoing and constant, it makes one wonder, either he's got some incredible lawyers that protect him, or he really thinks he's untouchable or is just a matter of time before his fall is. And none of us will know until, obviously, law and order, innocent until proven guilty. But sometimes we remain innocent because we have some very good lawyers. Ben, I appreciate you for giving me your time.

I know you're a very busy man, and I know you got a lot of big things you're working on. Any final thoughts you have here before we wrap up? Yeah, I think I'm glad you're a much better speculator in the financial world because I've read about your extraordinary success. But when it comes to criminal law, sometimes speculation is not helpful. And, you know, I cross examined the woman in the puff daddy case who now claims she saw, you know, puff daddy shoot her in the face, and the jury obviously did not believe her.

Benjamin Brafman
So it's interesting that, you know, now, 20 years later, you know, she can come back and say, well, you know, I saw him. Well, you know, she sort of. She. She said that in words of substance in the trial, and I think Ridgiri correctly rejected her testimony. I think in that case, other people in the.

In the bar had guns. And my information is that Puff daddy was not one of them. But a lot of people tried to protect him when the shooting started, and that's how sometimes bad cases are made. So I think I did a good job in that case. But at the end of the day, whoever represents him now, I wish them well, and I wish him good luck.

Patrick Bet-David
Yeah. I don't think anybody will question how good of a job you're doing. You did for him. I'm just wondering if he's sitting around saying, I wish I had been here next to me. Cause I'm gonna need him more for this one.

If he, by any chance, calls you, is there any chance you would consider representing him today? For anything else, if things get very ugly, would you consider saying yes to him? He's gonna be watching this. If he desperately needs your help, would you go out of your way to help him out? I'll wait for that call before I answer that question.

That's what I figured. Again. Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. But the market will decide, and there are just way too many creepy stories tied to Diddy, whether it's from Tupac biggie to all these other things. The market's going to decide what happens to this guy.

And hopefully, at the end of the day, whoever was taken advantage of, if they were, they'll be able to get their redemption. And if not, the market's gonna do what they're gonna do. Law and order. Innocent until proven guilty again. Ben, appreciate you for your time.

It's been an honor. I'm always enamored by those who choose to go to this route. I was a kid that was a 1.8 GPA kid in high school. Parents got a divorce a couple times. I probably would have ended up going the legal route, but I went to the army and got into business and financial services went a whole different route.

But I'm fascinated by the industry you've chosen to be a part of and especially getting to the highest level of your industry. Once again, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. My pleasure. Nice to meet you. Likewise.

Take care. Bye bye.