Andragogology (300TH EPISODE SPECIAL) with Alie Ward

This episode explores the concept of andragogy, the method and practice of teaching adult learners.

1. Andragogy vs. Pedagogy: The episode highlights the differences between teaching adults and children, emphasizing that adults need learning to be applicable and relevant to their lives.
2. Career Journey: Alie shares her varied career path, illustrating the non-linear trajectories that often lead to fulfilling work.
3. Science Communication: Insights into how adults learn and engage with scientific content are discussed, underscoring the importance of making science accessible and interesting.
4. Podcasting Challenges: The challenges of creating and maintaining a successful podcast are explored, including the balance of content creation and personal anecdotes.
5. Community Engagement: The episode stresses the importance of community in learning, particularly how engaging with an audience can enhance the educational experience.

1: Introduction

Alie and Mercedes introduce the episode's theme and reflect on the journey to the 300th episode. Alie shares her initial interest in science from a young age, sparked by curiosity and exploration. Alie Ward: "My interest in science started from just playing in the backyard, exploring everything from pollywogs to cow patties."

2: Andragogy Explained

The concept of andragogy is introduced, with discussions on how it applies to podcast listeners, most of whom are adults seeking knowledge that can be immediately applicable in their lives. Alie Ward: "Adults need to see the reason behind learning; they're not satisfied with superficial explanations."

3: Career Reflections

Alie reflects on her nonlinear career path, from potential careers in art and science to becoming a renowned science communicator. Alie Ward: "I've always been torn between my love for science and my passion for creative expression."

4: The Art of Podcasting

Challenges of podcasting are discussed, particularly how to keep content engaging over time and how to manage the technical aspects of podcast production. Alie Ward: "Every episode is a balance between educating, entertaining, and keeping myself engaged too."

5: Community and Learning

The importance of community in the learning process, especially in the context of adult education, is highlighted. Alie discusses how audience interaction has shaped her podcast. Alie Ward: "The community feedback shapes the show; it's not just about what I want to talk about but what they want to learn."

1. Seek Relevance in Learning: Try to connect new knowledge to your daily life to enhance retention and interest.
2. Engage with Communities: Join groups or forums related to your interests to enhance learning through discussion and shared experiences.
3. Be Open to Nonlinear Paths: Embrace opportunities even if they deviate from your planned career path; they might lead to fulfilling outcomes.
4. Use Technology for Learning: Leverage podcasts, videos, and interactive media to make learning more engaging and flexible.
5. Ask Questions: Cultivate curiosity by asking questions, even if they seem basic; this can deepen understanding and encourage exploration.

Boy howdy hot dang, Ologies has hit its 300th new episode! In celebration of this milestone, we’ve turned the tables and lead editor Mercedes Maitland hosts this episode with special guest… Alie Ward! We talk about Alie’s twists and turns finding her way into a career in science communication, selling art to child actors in LA, how she built Ologies from a small indie podcast into a chart-topping favorite, why it’s important to give adults a fun space in SciComm, putting yourself out there, how fear can kill curiosity, what it takes to be a science communicator and so much more. Buckle in for Mercedes’ debut as a host and find out whether she can be trusted to carry this beloved Fabergé egg we know as Ologies.

People

Alie Ward, Mercedes Maitland

Content Warnings:

None

Allie Ward
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Find laundry detergent and other laundry products@seventhgeneration.com. dot I love worms. Oh hey, it's that cuckoo in the nest who just wants to be a good little sister. Not Allie Ward. It's lead editor Mercedes Maitland here with something a little different for the 300th episode of Ologies.

Mercedes Maitland
Or okay, actually it's the 301st because mosquitoes was a beast and we made it a two parter. But sh, it's fine, fine. So if you're joining the party late and this is your first episode, absolutely. Do not be mistaken. I am usually hiding away in my little editing hermitage under the stairs while Ally does all of the talking.

But instead this week I interviewed Allie about her career as our favorite science communicator. But first, let's handle some business. Thank you to everyone over@patreon.com ologies for chipping in as little as a buck a month to help pay me and the rest of the team and for submitting your questions for the ologists. Seriously, you folks rock. Thanks also to everyone cruising around in Ologies merch, which well, link in the show notes.

Those can help you meet other ologites in the wild, like Claire, who I met at a Tim Hortons bathroom last year while I was wearing my own ologies t shirt. And thanks to everyone who rates and subscribes and leave reviews. Usually Allie reads one for you every week to prove that she reads them all. So here goes. Thanks.

Hey, its Bryn who says, im currently writing this from the desk of my first internship with my universitys museums department, and I have to thank Allie for that. If you need any encouragement to just go out and do the thing and follow your nerdy passion, whatever it may be. This is the podcast you've been looking for. Because of Ally, I've asked more smart people stupid questions in the past year than ever before, and I'm doing my dream internship and starting a thrilling research project because of it. So listen, enjoy, and happily build your fun fact collection.

Honestly, such a relatable review. And I'm gonna get to why. But first, let's get to androgygology. Androgology. So I promise I did find this word in the literature.

Sure, it's usually offered as an alternate to the more common and much easier to say andragogy, but I don't make the rules. So andragogy comes from the greek ander meaning adult male, and agogo meaning leader of. So leader of adult men. I don't love that, but it is what it is. You may know the term pedagogy, which refers to teaching, but did you know that the PED specifically refers to kids?

So, andragology, adult learning, or science communication for adults. And who better to talk to about that than our very own dad Ward Vaughn podcast. We talk about winding career paths, being 20 something in LA, following your dreams, why adults learn differently than kids, what to do about the political polarization of science, and how you can become a science communicator with science correspondent, tv host, and producer, writer, sometimes painter, and award winning science podcast host, Allie Ward.

All right, so I'm rolling on my end. How do you feel about this?

Like, a good mix of excited and like, holy shit, you know, you're hosting. I know, it's very strange. I love it. Well, I mean, maybe first thing I'll have you do before we get started is say your first and last name and which. Which pronouns you use.

Allie Ward
Oh, Allie Ward. She. Her. Well, thanks so much. So I know that recently you and, you know, our pod mom, Jarrett, did an ama, and we talked a lot about you in that episode.

Mercedes Maitland
I say we, but I wasn't there, and that very clearly made you a little bit uncomfortable. You really wanted to talk more about your psychom and your ologies and all of that. So I'm thinking we're gonna go mostly that way this time. You don't have to many of your personal secrets, but I will ask for some of them. I love after the field trip episodes, too.

Allie Ward
People are literally up my cooter for those colonoscopy I feel like people probably have gotten intimate enough with me, but we'll see what comes out. I'm not literally. Thanks for that. So you've had quite a career in doing this and that with scicomm and other calm stuff. That's not necessarily science.

Mercedes Maitland
Tell me about how you got started. When was your first awakening to science? That's a good question. I think it involved cow patties, because we lived in this area that was kind of a suburb of Sacramento, but at the time, it was all cow pastures behind our house, a barbed wire fence, and then cows. And so it's literally as far as the eye could see.

Allie Ward
And then there were ponds and pollywogs and stuff like that. And so both my parents worked, and so we were, you know, lovingly, kind of latchkey kids. I don't know if we ever even locked the doors, but. So my sister and I would play Atari, watch, like, three's company and the Jeffersons, and then we would go run around and try not to get tetanus. And so one game that I loved to play was this thing where we go poke cow patties.

And then I had a clipboard, and we'd try to guess how old they were based on their texture, poking them with a stick. And so I think that was some of my first fieldwork. And then I just loved being out in nature, and I loved seeing the pollywogs, the tadpoles, like, grow legs week by week. And my sister had a boyfriend who was an entomologist. She's seven years older than me.

He was also into heavy metal. So was my sister. So he was like this guy that would come in all black with hair down his back, but then he would talk to me on the porch about bugs while my sister got ready for whatever, their dates. And so I started getting really into bugs from that. Once I started seeing how much diversity was involved in the insect kingdom, I loved it.

So then I started getting field guides to bugs, and I would just pour through them. Like, we didn't have the Internet back then, so I would just look at them like kids would look at their iPads, and I was just constantly reading them. And so when I was in high school, I thought maybe I would go into film and science and make documentaries. And so I really wavered a lot between, like, art and film in my, like, teen and college years. And it was a big internal struggle for me.

But I think the first job. Job that I really wanted was probably, like, being a documentary filmmaker. That was, like, the first career that I thought. But I was also torn. Cause I like performance and I like plays and stuff like that, but I was really torn between in front of and behind the camera.

And so I think probably something to do with, like, film or tv. Cause we watched a lot of tv growing up. That looks fun. It looked non repetitive. I think I was looking for variety.

Mercedes Maitland
So how did Allie cut her teeth in film? My sisters and I, though we would make. We would make films along with this friend, Erin Campbell, who lived across the street, I think we made some horror series about a haunted potato head that if you saw it, you would die on sight. So Erin Campbell, by the way, that neighbor, is also known as Erin Talbert now that she's married and she Admins Theologies podcast, Facebook group. So I've known her since we were four and she was a co star in our movies.

Allie Ward
But I always loved the idea of working with people and running around and making stupid shit. And so I think I was. I loved being, like, a rascal. I was like, how can I be professionally a creative little rascal so that I'm always doing something different? But, yeah, my sister Celeste would direct, and Janelle, Erin and I would star in them and usually involved a haunted potato head that we carved and put lipstick on.

Mercedes Maitland
That's amazing. So did you go to school then for something in film? Yeah, I started in biology, so I was taking AP classes in. Yeah, like, that was my track. I wanted to go into environmental sciences, environmental studies.

Allie Ward
And so I was really torn between art and theater and film and science. I knew I liked both. And I remember being really torn as to what I did in college, and I decided that biology was the route I was going to go because animals were so interesting, earth was so important. And so the first two years of college, it was all biology, organic chemistry. And I was always in, like, summer school trying to get credits at JC's to transfer because it was just so much cheaper and because it just saved time.

And in the end, it took me five years to get through college because I changed my major anyway. I was like, oh, man. Look, anyone who makes you feel bad for taking more time to do your degree is wrong and you shouldn't listen to them. If it takes you five years or ten, that's fine. I took five to do mine, too.

But it was good. I'm glad I did. Like, I took all the lab classes. I learned so much about cell biology and ecology and stuff. And then I had a moment where I was studying the mouthparts of a crayfish and memorizing them in a library at the junior college I was at getting extra credits, and I was like, I wanted to be a biological illustrator.

Maybe at that point, I was like, I loved art. Maybe I could do something that was a little bit cheaper to get into, like, biological illustration. And I realized, like, a lot of biological illustrators already did what I'd want to do. And so I was like, maybe I should just go the creative route and just love science on the side. So I forgot that whole part about loving drawing and being a biological illustrator.

I loved that. And I just realized there's this guy named F Netter, Frank Netter, who is one of the best biological illustrators for human anatomy. And I would look at his illustrations like they were in the Louvre. Like, I would just pour over them. They were so beautiful.

And I was like, that would be an amazing life. And then I was like, yeah, it would be. And Frank Netter already did it. So what am I doing? And so I was like, well, maybe I'll just go back into, like, filmmaking and creative stuff, and, you know, just look at my bug guides on the side.

Mercedes Maitland
All right. First off, it breaks my heart to think of ally setting aside this dream of hers. And the way I see it, as long as what you create is made in your own style, there's always room for more creativity in the world. But let's put a pin in that for now. Who was this master illustrator, this so called medical Michelangelo that Allie was so enamored with?

So Frankenhetter was born in New York in 1906, and like Allie, he knew early in life that he wanted to be an artist, but eventually heeded his worried mothers insistence on training for a more dependable career as a surgeon. Turns out that maybe that wasnt the best advice, but it did change his path as an illustrator. Hes often quoted reflecting on his early days as a newly minted surgeon, saying, this was 1933, the depths of the depression, and there was no such thing as medical practice. If a patient ever wandered into your office by mistake, he didnt pay. His time in medical school did turn him on to anatomical illustrations, though, and he eventually gave up his medical practice when he realized that there was more demand for his drawings than his skills as a doctor.

He went on to illustrate a series of anatomical atlases for every organ system in the body, one that medical students still use today. He traveled often to witness his subjects firsthand and was present at groundbreaking moments in medical history, like the very first successful permanent artificial heart transplant. Wait, wait, wait. Artificial heart? What?

I didn't even know that was a thing. So this prosthetic heart, called the Arvic seven, was about the size of a grapefruit and looked a little bit like two plastic gas masks connected to some tubes. And this thing had to be connected to a 400 pound refrigerator sized air compressor that the patient, 161 year old Barney Clark, had to wheel around everywhere he went for the 112 days before he died of complications from an infection. So maybe successful and permanent or a bit of a stretch. But hey, at least Frank netter was there to capture the moment with his art, something he might never have done had he not, like, Allie, first taken a turn away from his career as an artist to try his hand in stem.

Did you ever get back into doing the drawing, even on the side? You know, I kind of did. I've had the. God, I've had, like, the weirdest career. Sometimes I was wondering, like, mentally if there was something really wrong with me that I hopped around from so many jobs, and I think maybe I'm just a little neurodivergent.

Oh, yes, allie, yes.

Same girl. Same. I was like, am I okay? Like, do I need to be put away on an island? Cause I would.

Allie Ward
I feel like I would talk to my now husband, who's younger than me, and I would mention, oh, yeah. Like, I used to be a painter. I used to do, like, you know, and he was like, how many jobs have you had? And I'm like, all of them. I've had every job.

Like, I've. I've sprayed lettuce at a produce mart at, like, five in the morning. Like, I've worked at a pottery studio and gotten fired. Like, I've been an illustrator for a weekly newspaper in my twenties. So I eventually got back into painting, and I did it in my twenties to supplement my income because I loved it.

I was like a waitress and then also a painter. And I'd put up my paintings in flea markets and coffee shops and do custom stuff, and I loved it. I haven't done that in about ten years, and I really miss it. But, like a romantic kind of, like, kind of life, if I'm imagining 20 something alley, like, just having a great time. Were you in LA at that point?

Yeah, it was awful, but it was also the best. Like, it fucking sucked sometimes. Cause I was broke. So broke. That is your twenties?

I mean, that is your twenties. And I remember a lot of the creative jobs I had obviously didn't pay. I became a reporter and a columnist for the LA Weekly. That was another dream of mine. And we're gonna get to that.

Mercedes Maitland
But first, Allie's romantic life as a broke LA artist. I used to sell my paintings at this flea market, and I had to borrow a wayward shopping cart to put all my paintings in. And then I would push them like four blocks at whatever, like six in the morning to set up like, rickety down these La Melrose streets to go set up at the flea market. And then LA is so weird that one of the first paintings I ever sold was to, like, Frankie Muniz from Malcolm in the middle, because LA is weird. And then there's like, some kid who's like, a bajillionaire, and you're like, I'm just.

Allie Ward
I made these in, you know, on my porch, and here I am so broke. So LA is weird like that. Okay, I just had to give you that piece of lore. But back to journalism. When did you start with that?

Mercedes Maitland
And I know that your dad was also a broadcast journalist, so, like, how did that kind of shape what you're doing today and what you've done? I never, ever, ever, ever thought I would do audio, ever, ever. I didn't want to. I thought it was so anxiety inducing. I couldn't imagine, like, my dad.

Allie Ward
So my dad, everyone's grandpa who passed away, and everyone has been so, so supportive and sweet about it. I don't know how I would have made it out of that without it. But he was an amazing writer and, like, a very wonderful, like, ethical journalist. And so he ended up in radio. And so we would listen to him in the mornings.

He would do, you know, traffic and news. He was the news director at this AM radio station, but we'd listen to my dad. And so I was always so intimidated by the fact that he was, like, live, that he was in live radio that just seemed, if you have a moment of dead air, that is the death of you on radio. It's just really, really on your toes and adrenalizing. I can confirm this with firsthand experience.

Mercedes Maitland
So back in 2022, just after I started as lead editor with Ologies, a friend of a friend who is a reporter for CBC Radio and a fan of the show, caught wind that this podcast was going to be edited in northeastern Ontario and asked me to do a quick radio interview to talk about it. Um. Was I very afraid? Yes. Did I do it anyway also?

Yes. I was live. I think I did fine. But the second. The second that call was over and the adrenaline stopped pumping, I think I spent a good ten minutes just sitting on the floor with my head between my knees, just having a good old anxiety attack.

But that's fine. It's how he stopped being afraid of things, I think. Right. I got into print journalism in my twenties. My sister was a crime reporter, Celeste, and so she would have to go cover these gruesome, PTSD inducing things where bodies and duffel bags popping up from rivers.

Allie Ward
I mean, it was gnarly, and I did not have the stomach for that. I was like, absolutely no way. But I always loved writing, and I never thought that I would be good enough. My sisters are great writers. My dad is a great writer.

My mom is hilarious. And I thought I loved writing, but I was really, really embarrassed about having anyone see what I wrote because I was just afraid it would be bad. And so I got into print journalism because I was still doing paintings and illustrating at the time. I had gone through some work in LA, like acting, which I really liked, until. And I'm sorry if anyone's already heard the story, but I got mugged by a couple of guys with knives, and it was pretty traumatic.

I didn't realize until later, like, exactly how much that kind of broke me in terms of what amount of trauma I was able to simulate or tolerate. So Allie talked about this in the 2018 furology two parter with Mary Poffenroth and in the 2019 victimology episode with Doctor Kelly Renison. If you want to dig deeper into how our brains and our bodies can react to these kinds of incidents and how we deal with them as a society. And so from there, I just didn't. As a woman, I didn't find it fulfilling to play out a lot of violence against women for entertainment.

And so I had my sag card. And at the time, you could get sag insurance if you made, like, $13,000 a year acting. And so even after I kind of pulled back from it, I would sometimes write casting directors or producers and be like, hey, if you ever need someone, my insurance is about to lapse. They're like, we'll bring you in for an audition. And then I would get enough to squirt by and have health insurance for another year, which was very generous of people to bring me back.

But you kind of had to put yourself out there and be like, hey, I'm broke. If you need me, holler. And sometimes putting yourself out there, hugely, hugely important career wise. And I know that that's a lot of why you're here. You did that with us.

You were like, hey, if you need an intern, hey, if you need an. Internet, yeah, it was. That was mildly terrifying. But you know what? It was right after.

Mercedes Maitland
This is like, it's gonna sound so silly today. I don't know. It was shortly after Russia had invaded Ukraine. Okay. Oh, wow.

And I was thinking about it, and I was like, oh, God, this is when people were like, is this gonna be world war three? Oh, my goodness. And I was like, you know what? Like, we could have a nuclear winter in two years from now. Like, we could all be dead.

Fuck it. Who cares?

So, you know, I took your advice, like, very, very truthfully. Like, we're all gonna die. Like, cut banks, text your crush. Because I've been a fan of this show since 2018, since shortly after finishing my undergrad and working this horribly boring job where I got to listen to podcasts. And, yeah, I just took that advice to heart.

And I knew Jarrett because of. Because of his quarantine calisthenics that he was doing during COVID So I reached out and. And kept reaching out because I knew that both of you. I knew for sure that Jarrett was ADHD. I think at that point, you were starting to suspect and talk about that yourself.

I had recently learned that that's also me, so I was. You know, if it was anyone else, I might have been like, oh, they're not interested. I'll stop following up. But I'm like, I have a feeling that these people are like me, and they're chaotic and they forget things. So I'm just gonna pester them until I get an answer.

And that's what I did, and it worked. It was really one of the best things you could have done, because I saw based on how many times you reached out, you reached out, like, three or four times. And I was like, oh, she really wants to actually work with us. Of course, it wasn't like, I sent this out to a bunch of places. We'll see who gets back.

Allie Ward
But it felt like if you were passionate enough to write us back and say, hey, just wanted to check in again, it was a sign that you were really willing to work on it passionately and that you had some zeal for it. And, you know, at the time, ologies wasn't taking interns, and we still kind of don't. But Jarrett's company, Mindjam Media, was, and so you interned for him, and. Yeah. And now you're lead editor, Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio.

This is exciting. Absolutely bizarre, because who am I? Some random girl sitting in northern Ontario working on this, you know, chart topping show? It's just. It's.

Mercedes Maitland
It's bizarre. It's bizarre. But it's so. You're so good at it. We're always like, oh, thank God for Mercedes.

All right, all right. Enough about me. This isn't about me. We're going back to you. I kind of.

Allie Ward
Same thing happened, though. Like, so just to recap, I always had, like, jobs to supplement, usually minimum wage or tip jobs. I was catering a lot and then got mugged. Was, like, not in it for that anymore. And then I was like, fuck, what am I gonna do?

And so I started painting again. And then that led to me reaching out to the LA Weekly. At the time, I really wanted to illustrate for them. I had been painting a lot and selling paintings, and it was, like, really what my focus was. And I saw that the creative director at the LA Times was named Ryan Ward.

The same last name. I don't meet a lot of wards unless I'm in Montana where all my relatives are. And I decided I would. First thing I did is I called the LA Weekly, and I was like, hey, are you guys accepting any submissions for illustrators? They're like, no, we're filled up by.

And then I was like, fuck. Okay. And then I saw Ryan Ward, his name on the masthead. So I called up, and I was like, hi, can I talk to Ryan Ward? And they're like, who's calling?

And I was like, oh, alie Ward. And they're like, okay. And then. So I got put through to him, and I was like, how? You don't know me.

Isn't it weird we have the same last name? My name's Allie Ward. Your name's Ryan Ward? Anyway, I'm an illustrator. I already called and I tried to see if they would look at my portfolio, but they wouldn't.

But anyway, I just wanted to see if, like, you ever take submissions? And he was like, yeah, you can send me your stuff. And he ended up liking it. And then I got my first assignment to illustrate for them, which was like, fireworks. Like mentos in Diet Coke.

Like the happiest thing ever.

So I started illustrating for them, and I loved it. But then, yeah, there was a Tegan and Sarah concert, and a reporter was supposed to go and couldn't. And so they called me up, and they're like, can you be at the Wiltern in, like, half an hour? And I was, like, out the door. And so I went and covered it.

And then that got me my first assignment, and then they started giving me more and more. And then at some point, the LA Times was opening up a new chapter, like a new section. And so they kind of poached me because they offered healthcare. So I started writing for the LA Times as like a columnist. And like, I covered like, art and events.

And so I felt like that creative drive and that media drive and that storytelling drive like that really had a place to flourish there. And I always wanted to do more science content for them. But that came eventually. I started doing more tv. So before Ally found her way into educational tv shows, she appeared on the cooking Channel and had various tv and movie roles, including three seasons as Miranda on Nash Bridges and appearances on Key and Peele, Grey's Anatomy, even an episode of Drunk History.

Mercedes Maitland
And if you've been listening to the show for a while, you'll know that her career took a turn towards Scicom when she started volunteering at the La Natural History Museum. After that, she started taking on roles in science and technology shows. Allies work on the Henry Ford Innovation Nation with Mel Rocca has won two daytime Emmys for outstanding writing and outstanding special class series. You can also find her on how to build everything, ge in the wild brainchild. And as the host of her very own did I mention invention and a new quick connections series.

Shes consulted for other shows, too. For one, shes helped produce the kids show ada twist, scientist. So our pod dads been a busy little rascal, keeping us entertained and filled with weird science facts for at least the last ten years. But it was so many stops on that journey, like, so many, like, hairpin turns and backtracking. And I always feel like there's so many people who aren't quite sure what they want to do or they feel like, ashamed of, like, well, if I like this but not that, then which one should I do?

Allie Ward
And like, the perfect job for you is probably not necessarily like, laid out in an ad. You kind of have to figure out what you're good at because you love. It and take the opportunities when they come to you, right? Oh, hell yeah. Yeah.

Take the opportunities and like, tell people what you want to do. You've got to say, like, hey, if anyone's looking for this, I'm doing this because people just aren't mind readers and people are in their own shit. And letting people know what you want to do or what opportunities you want. You're come top of mind when that comes up. It may not be immediate, it may be two months down the road or two years down the road or five days down the road.

But if you tell people what you want to do, you will get so many more opportunities. And that is really hard for people who are neurodivergent or who are self doubting or who are in historically underrepresented groups. There are so many things mentally to overcome, to be able to put yourself out there, and it's not easy. And I feel like I'm like the ghost of Christmas future, being like, do it, and we're all gonna die. Yeah.

Mercedes Maitland
It's true, though. It's such a good philosophy. You have to. It's funny to me how people, people don't like it when you tell them that we're all gonna die. I have learned people get weirded out by that, but it's like, it's the truth, man.

We are like, why hide from it? We're barely here. And, like, it's very silly. But, like, on Innovation Nation, the thing that mo raka always ends with, and that's a show I've worked on for, like, ten years, but they always end with, like, dream big and don't quit. And honestly, very true, like, don't be afraid of failure.

Allie Ward
That's one thing I've learned from Innovation Nation, is like, every person that I interview is just like, oh, you're gonna fail. You're gonna fail so many times. That's the only way you go forward. You're gonna fail. You're gonna learn what doesn't work.

You're going to change things. You're going to go forward. Yep. All right. I'm a firm believer in positive quitting.

Mercedes Maitland
Sometimes you start a thing, and it's just not the right move for you. But as long as you're looking at that experience and going, okay, well, like, why did I try that in the first place? What do I know now that I can use to make adjustments and keep going? You know, what part of that plan is still salvageable? If you do that, you're golden.

And I was really, really hard on myself when I quit a journalism master's program a month in. But life's too short. Force yourself to do something that you hate just for the sake of not being a quitter. And I realized I really had wanted to be a science communicator more than anything else. And journalism school wasn't the only way there, and it certainly wasn't the best way for me.

I'd much rather quit a month in and get a head start on something better for me than be miserable for two years and come out of it with the degree that I don't even want anymore. And just like Frank Netter giving up his medical practice or ally changing majors or leaving behind acting. If I had seen that redirection as a failure and given up, where would I be today? Not recording this, certainly. Probably in bed.

Allie Ward
But if you can, try to find what you would be happiest doing and just make as many inroads as you can and also have a community of people. I think James Burke from connections, his philosophy is like one plus one equals three. Things are always going to go better when you collaborate magic that happens because you just feed off each other. Before you know it, you get further. And so having a community of people that are like minded is so helpful.

And you know, when I first started doing psychom, I made some friends and we started calling ourselves the nerd brigade because we'd be like, hey, is any brigade nerds want to go get some drinks or whatever? And I mean, it all started from just a couple of us being like, it was Valentine's Day and like four of us didn't have dates. Let's just, everyone researched some horrible or wonderful mating habits in the animal kingdom on Valentine's Day and let's just go meet at a bar and go hang out. And then we just met more and more nerds that were all sci commerce. And, you know, there's like twelve of us and it's so helpful to be able to ask like, hey, how much should I charge for this?

Or if someone asked me to do, you know, a talk, should I charge? Should I charge them or not? Or hey, I can't do this, but you would be great for this. Or hey, I need to brush up on my skills. Does anyone have a minute?

And, you know, we're all friends, but it's also just helpful to have that community. You really get ideas from each other. And if I hadn't sat around with all of these friends and heard some of their behind the scenes stories, I don't think ologies would be what it was like, really inspired by them. And so having like a like minded community where you can help each other, not just opportunistically take from the group, but help each other, like, you know, don't pull the ladder up behind you. And I think that that's so important.

Mercedes Maitland
Shout out to my scom siblings, my own nerd brigade, my classmates and my friends from the science communication master's program. When I get around to launching my own podcast someday, I know who I'll be calling for help. But who was helping ally back in the early days of ologies? What was ologies like? Like in the early days in your first year, like, who were you working with?

How much of this were you doing yourself? How the hell, ally, how the fuck. Know what goes into it now? Manage. How did you manage?

Because. Poorly. Badly, mercedes, badly. So badly. But it wasn't, it wasn't apparent, though, from a listener's perspective.

Like, I started listening less than a year in to ologies and I fell in love with it immediately, by the way, and it's the whole reason why I did my master's degree in science communication. But now that I'm on this other side of it and I can see how much work it is, and I know that back then you had more jobs going on the side, you were doing more on tv, I think, at the time as well, right? How the fuck did you manage to put out a full length episode weekly, year round? We're not talking seasons and we're not talking a crew of, you know, 20 people. Like, you hear at the end of some of other podcasts that are, you know, up in the charts with us.

Like, it was Allie. What?

Allie Ward
It sucked so bad. I was a shell. No, I wasn't a total shell. It was so hard. Ologies is the hardest I've ever worked in my life.

And I've. I spent college getting up at five in the morning to work at a telemarketing place next to a crematorium. And then I'd go to school all day, and then I'd work again at the evening shift at the telemarketing place, answering phone calls from six to ten. Then I'd go home, do homework, and then I'd get up and do it again. So I've had early mornings, I've had long days.

I've worked in, like, the Mojave desert as a caterer. Collapsed and needed an ambulance. Like, oh, God. But ologies takes so much focus to work on. And it's also, like, a lot of the work that I put into it is so driven by passion and wanting to do it justice and wanting to do the concept justice.

I saw this list of ologies on a really shitty old website, a geocities website in 2002. And I knew then, I was like, this is so fascinating. I want to know who does this? And I wanted to make something out of it. Either a book or I pitched it as a tv show.

And they were like, no, the totally wrong move. And so when the opportunity came up to do this, when the suggestion came up to make a science podcast, I was like, oh, I want to make ologies, like, for sure. And I did my first interview. First thing I did was buy this recorder. It's called a zoom h four one.

I think I always want to say h one n. I always want to call it a bird flu number. Anyway, it was $250. And at the time, I was like, I can't believe I just dropped this much money. It's a lot of money.

Plus a couple mics and cables and the first recording I ever did, I was so nervous to press the button, and it was just me on the couch going, making a fucking podcast. How does this work? And, like, I still have that recording somewhere of me so afraid to, like, press the button, even though it was just me on my couch testing the equipment. When we get off this call, ally, I fully expect you to go find that so I can put this in there. Test this.

Testing, one, two, three. This is ally 123-451-2345 and recording a goddamn podcast. So here we fucking go. Okay. And stop.

And so I recorded my first one with Leela, and then I recorded a couple more, and I couldn't figure out the format. I was. I wanted it to be like, I always talk about, like, west coast, east Coast, and I think I stole that from my friend Matt Myra, who did a bunch of nerdist podcasts. I always attribute it to him, but I don't know if it was from him. But it's like, East coast podcasts are like the daily and radio lab and this american life where they are produced.

They have a lot of staff. They have good music beds, they've got great transitions. They work on these for months and months. And then there are, like, west coast podcasts, which, like a couple people with a micro talking about farting, talking about whatever. And so.

And then they just put it up. Maybe they cut out some incriminating stuff, if anything. And then, you know, whatever. And so I think, like, I thought I could make a west coast science podcast, but I realized after I did, like, six or seven of them, I was like, I can't put it out just like this because there's a ton of context or background or I was afraid that there are stretches of information that would be too much to really digest at once. And so I thought maybe it needed some breaks or it needed some more context or like a stupid joke here or there or whatever.

And so I sat on it for, like, almost, I think, nine or ten months, trying to work with it, trying to figure out how am I going to do this. Maybe I could put, like, a little insert of voiceover to explain what this geyser does or whatever. And so I was kind of working on it. I'd made a trailer for it with my friend Jason Scardamalia, who is amazing. He made the kinetics select college I never salicydology, kinetic, salicydology, kinetics all to cydology.

The jumping spider beats at the end of the episode. He's great. He's an amazing composer, Jason Scardamalia. And so he helps me put together a trailer. And I had gotten the handles on social media.

I had made the art myself. And then someone messaged me and they were like, hey, just so you know, I heard that another podcaster is thinking about making an ologies podcast and my stomach dropped. I have never had that kind of, like, emotional nausea like I did before. It was like I was so close to putting it out, but I was tinkering and tinkering and tinkering and wanted it to be perfect and didn't know what to do. And I was like, fuck, it's go time.

I have to do this. So I reached out to him and I was like, hey, just so you know, I heard you're thinking about doing this. I've been working on this for a year. Here's the art. Da da da.

Like, right away I was like, I've been. I have the handles. And he was like, oh, yeah, I'm probably not gonna do it. Don't worry about it. And so I was like, we gotta put this thing up tonight.

And so we put out that first trailer and I had to go. It was just like getting pushed off of an airplane after flying around for ten months saying you're gonna skydive. It was like, I just got kick the fuck out. I was like, well, I'm in the air now. And so I just had to make the next one.

And so, you know, I haven't listened to the volcano episode in seven years because I just, I probably couldn't. Those first ones, I'm like, I don't even know what they sounded like. But, I mean, I was like cutting each thing on garageband at the time, which was a free program, which is great because it's free, but it is also harder to use. It's like I moved up to logic pro or prologic, simply because when you cut out a section, it would automatically bring up the rear. But with garageband, you had to line them up one by one.

And it was driving crazy. So I was like, all right, $199. Here we go. I was like, I'm bleeding money. I don't know what I'm gonna do.

But, yeah, I put it up, and then I worked really, really hard on the first episode, put it up two weeks later. At the time, I was with a small network, and I remember the day it went out. I was like, this is a dream that's been 15 years in the making. A year spent trying to edit and figure this out. All this money.

I'd put out a couple thousand dollars in equipment and things like that. And then I told myself the day that it came out, I'm just not going to listen to it. I'm just going to go for a hike. I'm not going to turn on my phone. Came back for my hike in the afternoon, I put it on, and I realized that the network put up the wrong version.

And they put up a completely raw version with none of my edits. No, none of them. And I, and I had put it out the night before, like, hey, everyone, it's dropping. Da da da. I had spent a year telling people I was gonna do this, and they put out completely raw audio with nothing, none of my anything.

Again, my stomach dropped and I was like, am I, did I get cursed by a witch? Like, what? What the fuck did I do in another life? But it ended up being a weird roundabout. It was good because at that point, that small network that I was having was having a lot of internal problems.

There was, like, harassment going on. There was like, some drug binges from the people in charge. People weren't getting paid. It was a real shit show. And they ended up closing shortly after.

But that day, I was just like, love you guys, but I put up all my own money for this. I'm gonna leave. I'm just gonna do this independently. Ah, I love that. Yeah, I was like, I think I had to pay them $1,500 to get my theme music from them.

Mercedes Maitland
Oh, geez. I know. Which I was like, well, okay, I'll just cash out anything I have in savings. But it was worth it in the end because they would have taken 50% of everything I made, and I would have had to trust that they would have put up the right file. So that was, like, all of these things on the way there were devastating for something that was, like, I had wanted to do for so long.

Allie Ward
And it was also, like, the nexus of, like, art and writing and science and storytelling and, like, comedy and everything. And here was this, like, faberge egg, and I just felt like I had broken it immediately, so. But it turned out for the best. And if I hadn't owned it myself, I wouldn't have gotten a lot of the opportunities. So, yeah, that's the story of episode one.

Mercedes Maitland
I do really think that that's one of the strengths of this podcast is that you've kept it independent. Thank you for saying that. It's been really tough. Like, when I first started, after I left that network, I was wanting to see if any other networks would take me at first, and no one would. It was too small at the time.

Allie Ward
I think I had maybe 5000 plays an episode on a good episode at the time, which wasn't enough for anyone to take it. And so I was like, all right, I guess I'll keep it independent for context. The show's most popular episode, which is part one of ADHD, has been downloaded over a million times. A million. I wonder if those networks who wouldn't take this potty mouth little science podcast back in 2017 ever regretted that.

And then I had, like, networks being like, hey, we'd like to take you on. We'll take 50% of what you're making. And I was like, no, no, I don't want to do it. So I ended up keeping it independent. And that's been.

That's been really helpful. It was scary at first, but also at that point, I was like, well, you're just gonna take a bunch of money, and I'm already doing the work. But at the time, I was doing the editing, a lot of the editing myself, and then Patreon was huge and still is. Like, the show wouldn't be what the show is without Patreon. Like, Kara Santa Maria, doctor Cara Santa Maria, who hosts talk nerdy.

She gave me some advice, like, start the Patreon before you start your project, because the people who are going to support you the most are going to be there while you're making it. And it was Patreon that I started in September of 2017, or maybe, yeah, around then, right before I launched, that helped me be able to pay for. Steven Ray Morris was helping me edit for a long time. I took him on and, like, maybe four or five months into it, and, you know, that allowed me to shower and leave the house sometimes. So it was like.

And it was doing it on the road when I was doing other tv stuff, it was just. It was really hard, but it was something I was so passionate about. And I'm really glad I stuck it out, but it's tough. I mean, you know how it is. This is a weekly show.

We put out, like, hour, hour and a half. Every single week, we do encores, like, if I'm in the hospital or planning my dad's funeral, and that's about it. So it's a grind. Podcasting can be a grind. Cause you just have that weekly thing to put out.

Mercedes Maitland
Right. There's no semesters. There's, you know, we don't do seasons like that, so it's tough. I mean, how do you handle that grind? Cause you work your ass off for it.

Allie Ward
Like, I mean, I'm always like, I'm so sorry. You have to work for me. This is really hard. No. So there was actually.

Mercedes Maitland
I'm getting ahead of us, but there. A listener did ask that question. One of the listeners looking at you, Rebecca Newport, asked me how it is working with you, and. Oh, God, I don't know. This is.

I'm trying to. I'm trying to, like, express by, like, gratitude in a good way. I. It's chaos, and I love it. It's.

It's. That's how I describe it. It's chaos, but I love it because I feel like that's our natural habitat. Yeah. You know?

Allie Ward
Yeah. Yeah. As a little bit neurodivergent, we thrive in, like, under time pressure, I think. Yes. And under novel information and problem solving.

Mercedes Maitland
Yes. Yeah. So it's great. And I get to work from home, which is really lovely. I don't have to go on and, like, put on this mask of pretending to be like a normal human being in front of other adults that feel more adultier than I do.

So that part's really nice. But also, without that external structure of there being people watching me, knowing that I'm doing my job or not, that can be tough if it's not something that's really engaging. Right. I don't think I'd be able to pull it off if we didn't have it that way. I understand what you're saying.

Allie Ward
There's something about, okay, like, we put out the show. It's kind of like. It kind of feels like if you were in a theatrical production, and it was like, you do the show, curtain falls, take a breather, and then, all right, got another show. Like, yes. It's that kind of excitement.

Mercedes Maitland
It's exactly this energy. The same as when we would do school plays at Christmas time. And my favorite part was just being backstage, giddy with nerves and trying not to giggle too loudly while we waited for our cues. And as the sort of person who needs a bit of a push from adrenaline now and then, the backstage vibe of the show is a good fit for me. And when I'm not racing to the finish line after dark on a Tuesday night, at least I literally get paid to lend my ears to something that's been good at keeping my attention for more than five years.

Allie Ward
And it's tough, you know, like, my own anxiety and my passion for the show and also for listeners. Like, I want the show to be a good experience for listeners. Like, I don't want to have it lag. I don't want it to be unsatisfying with the information, but I don't want to be too long. I want the information to be relevant but also novel.

And so I think we tinker with it because we want it to be good. And that is. It's hard to just say it's good enough and walk away. Yeah, I know that we talked about this a little bit. With one of the last episodes, I found myself down, like, a little research rabbit hole, and, like, they.

Mercedes Maitland
Oh, my goodness. It's like a black hole almost. Trying to research. Yes. And that's.

Oh, boy. When I imagine trying to step into your shoes and doing all of that research, I don't know. I feel like I could spend two weeks researching a single episode. And I know that you get really sucked into your rabbit holes, too. Like, oh, God.

Allie Ward
Oh, God. How do you decide when to let go of something? And is it terrible, or do you kind of love it also? I love it. And the only thing that gets me out of the rabbit holes and says, enough is the looming pressure that I'm like, if I don't get these asides in, I will make Mercedes life hell.

And it's just like finding out weird information about people or places that you never would have thought were involved. It's really hard because those things can be really, really interesting and gives so much more context behind these things we take for granted. But, yeah, you could spend weeks on one episode. Weeks and weeks and weeks. And it's really hard to pull back because I feel like a huge dog, like a pit bull or a german shepherd with a toy in its mouth that just is like, I don't want to give it up, so it's tough.

But that's the beauty of weird information and history and context. I love it. Yeah. And I think it's part of what makes the show so, like, appealing as well is when you do those asides and, like, you never. You think you're gonna tune into an episode about trains, and you're like, I don't know, do I really care about trains that much?

Mercedes Maitland
And then you go into these fun stories and the asides, the stuff that you don't expect to find, right? Oh, I love it. I think that's part of the fun of the show, for sure. I hope. I always try to figure out, like, do we need a little brain break or do we need a diversion or do we need to have it go somewhere you're not expecting it to go?

Allie Ward
And, you know, I'm interested because you have a master's in psychom. I don't have that at all. But when you were learning how to calm psy, what strategies do you feel like were big takeaways? And what, what do you think science media gets right and wrong about it? Yeah, I think this is stuff that I wanted to ask you as well, is like how you learned PsIcOM, because I don't think that it's something.

Mercedes Maitland
It's clearly not something that you need to have a master's in. That's just the path that I went through to learn this stuff and get in the door. And I am so glad I did. This program at Laurentian University in Sudbury, Ontario is the only one of its kind in Canada, and it's hosted in part by Science north, which is this super fun science center that I went to so many times as a kid on school trips and as a halfway point attraction on the way to visit my parents families. And the program is run by these two incredibly smart, incredibly talented, compassionate smartypants, Michelle Reid and Doctor Chantel Beriot.

Honestly, two of the best teachers I have ever had. I adore them. We spent eight crazy months learning how to analyze and craft messaging. We learned about learning theory, audience relations, design theory, research methods, social media strategy, and our pick of either traditional media or exhibits. And then we were sent off to do internships and a major research project over the summer semester.

And if you're curious, you can hear about mine in the evolutionary anthropology episode from earlier this year. But I think one of the big, like, almost like a gut punch kind of lessons that seems so obvious is that information isn't enough to get people invested in something, to get people to change their behavior or be interested or change their mind. It's not no amount of, oh, I've got to provide the right information, I've got to make it understandable, or I've got to dumb it down for people in the right kind of way, is that so much of science communication is about relationships and getting to know who your audience is. Know your audience, and you really have to tailor what you're doing to your audience? And, like, do they even want to know about this?

Why would they want to know about this? How is this information relevant for them? And that's something relevant? Yeah. Yeah.

That's something that's, I think, a little bit different when it comes to scicom for adults versus kids. Is that, like, kids just. They're just little sponges and they're curious about everything. You know, if you tell them a cool fact, like, they're hooked. Kids are curious for a reason.

Basically, the entire point of human childhood is to learn. We are incredibly helpless creatures without all of that cultural knowledge and skills that's passed on to us from older generations and even our peers. And it's also easier to spark curiosity when everything is new and surprising. Like, do you remember what it was like figuring out how things worked for the first time? As adults, we at least like to think we've got the essentials figured out already.

And unlike kids, we are rarely a captive audience, sat down in a classroom or brought to a museum on a field trip or family outing. But with adults, you're like, I got bills to pay. Why should I? Why should I care? You know?

Allie Ward
Completely. It's got to be relevant to people. Yes. And it's got to be something that they're. That they're kind of ready to hear.

Mercedes Maitland
And sometimes there's people that, like, you're just. You're not going to. You're not going to reach them in whatever hour that you have or, you know, some of these things take a long time. That's, I think, the biggest takeaway. Yeah, I always think that's so 100% true.

Allie Ward
And it's like, you have to have something that people can put in their pocket. You know, every time you tune into anything, whether you're scrolling, whether you're down a wikihole, whether you're online shopping for a laundry basket, like, you want something out of it. You want a laundry basket. You want to figure out how this dead person's life went, and maybe you'll learn a little bit about your own life from it. And so I always think, like, what do they want to put in their pocket?

Because you don't seek out things without wanting something from them. And so it's like, how will this change a person's life? Like, will they never think about snails the same way? Will they garden differently? Will they look at love darts in a snail and think about shooting their shot?

Like, what changes our life as adults? No one's really making us learn things outside of what we might need to know for our jobs. So what motivates us to spend our time learning about science rather than watching reruns of Gilmore girls or, I don't know, deep cleaning your apartment while badly and loudly serenading your neighbors to the newest Hosier album? Well, in 1970, adult education researcher Malcolm Knowles published his new theory of adult learning in the book the modern practice of adult education, andragogy versus pedagogy. Based on his model, the most important differences when it comes to adult learning versus childhood learning, adults need to have a good reason to learn something new.

Mercedes Maitland
You can't just tell them, learn this because I said so or because it'll be on a test later. They're not going to like being told what to do or what to think. No one likes being patronized, but they're also not going to be interested unless it really has some sort of purpose for their lives. It could be as simple as being entertained or enjoying a new appreciation for what you come across on a hike. If that's what makes you feel like you, that can be a good reason.

Allie Ward
And I think that for me, being a volunteer docent at the Natural History Museum of LA changed my whole outlook on science communication. And so the thing is, you can't just be a docent to show up, put on the vest and a lanyard like they make you go through, you know, an orientation. Just maybe three, four days. It's full days, right? And, like, the mission of the museum is to inspire wonder and curiosity.

And I was like, well, I love that, that same, you know, and then what they have you do is they have you go out and just turn you loose in the museum and pick like, three or four artifacts or objects and to go look at it and write down how it made you feel and how it made you feel when you looked at it and how it made you feel when you read a little bit about it on the cards, you know, on the plaques. And so I picked a couple objects. And that exercise alone, the way that it made me look at those objects and the context it gave me, is so different than just walking past something going, oh, there's a desk. Like, oh, there's a bowl. Like, a couple of the objects that I randomly picked, like, one was.

One was a bowl that had been used to collect hearts for human sacrifice. I was like, oh, it's in the anthropology wing. And I was like, well, this bowl I'm looking at, you could use it for guacan chips, but knowing what this had been used for also, there are so many other there's a whole other rabbit hole about repatriating artifacts. Oh, I could go down that rabbit hole with you easily. There's another show that I want to do about that, about just tracing objects.

Who should have them? How are they collected? I mean, ugh. But that's a part of the context of that object, too. And, you know, another thing that the NHM has is Walt Disney's, like, very first desk he ever used for animation, which you walked past it, you're like, okay, that's a wooden desk.

And you stop, and you're like, oh, that's where all of these really historical animations were made that turned into Disney. Da da da da da. And then also, like, who would Disney hire? Who would Disney not hire? Like, what kind of empire did it create?

And what was that founded on? That was really exclusionary. So there's all of that, and it's like those objects having the context. It goes from an object to something that has just so much meaning. That's just almost, like, has, like, a sacred history.

And so when communicating science, it's not just that, you know, the sun has flares. It's like, what did those flares do historically? Who are the people that made the instruments that could help us understand that? Like, what happened in the past from a technology standpoint, when solar panels were, like, who saw the auroras? Like, there's just so much more to every single fact.

And when you can put a story to it, it suddenly has meaning, and you suddenly have something to put in your pocket. And you can't not have an emotional reaction to something when you have context to how it affects the earth or animals or other people's lives or what it's doing there from an existential standpoint. So, again, those emotional connections help us bring those stories into the context of our own lives and experiences and memories. And that's a really powerful force when it comes to learning new information. So, despite our culture's history of remote memorization in classrooms, modern learning theorists recognize that to really make an impact, learners need to bring their whole selves to the table, including their own experiences and their relationships and their communities.

Mercedes Maitland
So being able to make those emotional connections is so important. And story is a really great way to do this. There is a reason that storytellers have been revered throughout human history. They help us see through other people's eyes and learn from them and imagine how their experiences might apply to our own. And so I think that just being a docent was so helpful in that way.

Allie Ward
And another thing they teach you in that program is people don't necessarily want to be lectured to. You know, if you're holding a coyote pelt, which was one of my stations, they just be like, okay, you're the coyote pelt. And I go stand in the thing. And then some people would come up and want to touch it. But it wasn't like, these are the guard hairs.

This is what they do. This is da da da da. It was like, what do you notice about it? Notice it's really fluffy. Like, what do you notice about the difference in the hairs?

And then they tell you. And you go, why do you think that is? And then they go, well, I guess maybe some is for warmth and maybe some is for water. And you're like, yeah, exactly. And so letting people observe and come to their own conclusions about things or having them participate in it, I think, is much more exciting.

And that's why I love having Patreon questions. That's why I love the idea that the listeners in ologies have a seat at the table instead of just listening to two people talk. But I kind of like the asides for being like, I know you're here and you're part of this. You're not just like an audience. All right, so I was looking through my old notebooks while I was working on this just to kind of refresh my memory, and I found a note scribbled in the margins next to a section on Lev Vygotsky's sociocultural theory of learning.

Mercedes Maitland
That said, transmission alone doesn't work. Ologies community building hive mind so Vygotsky's sociocultural theory of learning says that we make meaning through our interactions with each other, not just by being told something we didn't already know. We're able to learn more when people who know a bit more than us about some things can kind of give us a sense scaffold of knowledge to leapfrog over so that we don't get bogged down figuring out the same thing that somebody else already has. And apparently that made me think of this wonderful community of Ologites ally has so expertly crafted, especially that hive mind I was thinking of in the Ologies Facebook group. And so I think that the museum really launched so much of what I like hold dear when it comes to science communication.

Allie Ward
It's like making it relevant. And if it's relevant too to you, then it becomes relevant to an audience. If someone's like, you have to listen to this album. This album's so good. It's so good.

You'll be like, okay. And I feel like if you're the same way about an ologist, like, this person's really cool. Trust me, okay? This fact is awesome. People are like, all right, okay, I'm listening.

And so I think that excitement is helpful, too, but you know, all that. It's contagious. It's contagious. So, yeah, yeah, it's genuine. You're genuinely in nerd about this stuff.

I love it so much. Okay. I could talk to you for ages. Allie, I'm sorry this is so long. I feel like.

Mercedes Maitland
Don't be sorry, don't be sorry. This is great. Do you want to do some listener questions? Yeah. All right.

Allie Ward
Yeah. Belly up to the table, listeners. But before we get to your questions, dear listeners, let's hear some messages from sponsors lovingly handpicked by Ally that help her send donations to a cause of the ologist's choosing each week. And this week, Allie chose the science Haven, which was founded by molecular biology guest doctor Raven, the science maven Baxter. So the science haven is committed to creating an inclusive platform for science, dialogue and meaningful connections between disparate communities.

Mercedes Maitland
Through their events, programs, web series, workshops, and public discussions, they strive to promote the accessibility of science and create an environment where diverse perspectives can be heard and respected. Their goal is to foster innovative solutions to our most pressing global issues through interdisciplinary collaboration and understanding. So we'll send some cash their way this week, and we'll get to your questions right after these messages. Well, this show is sponsored by Betterhelp. As so's my brain, I use better help.

Allie Ward
Listen, we're almost halfway through this year. What else do you want for the rest of the year? What do you want for you, is the question. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give betterhelp a try. It's entirely online.

It's designed to be convenient, flexible, suited to your schedule. You fill out this brief questionnaire. You get matched with a licensed therapist. If for any reason you are not vibing, you can switch therapist anytime, no additional charge. When it comes to starting therapy, it can be really intimidating.

You don't know who to call. You don't know what specialties they do, how long till you can see them? And I love that. Better help makes that onboarding super easy. You take a quiz, they say, I think these people are good for you.

You say, great, boom. Within 48 hours, you're matched with someone. I have used betterhelp. It helped so much, especially through a lot of grieving process I was going through and I've learned how to look after myself. So if you've been wanting to start therapy, this is me saying, go for it.

Take a moment. Visit betterhelp.com ologies today, and you get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp h dash e dash p.com ologies. You deserve it. I deserve it.

Mercedes Maitland
All right, questions. Let's start with Allison P. Emma oe and first time question Asker Shannon Wright, who asked about doing scicom specifically for adults. As Shannon said, I believe that critical thinking and the scientific method is so important for not just kids, but adults to understand and live their lives with. How do you believe we can celebrate these methods of thinking and make it cool to approach life this way, when fast facts and quick videos seem to be the preferred method of information intake?

You've talked a little bit here and there, and we've talked, you know, off the show about how you find it very important to have, like, this outlet, the science communication outlet for adults specifically. Tell me a little bit about that. Oh, that was so hard to figure it out because I was, like, looking at the top science shows and, you know, hidden brain radio lab, and I was like, none of them really are like, there's a little e next to podcasts. That means that there's explicit content. There might be swearing, you might talk about boning, whatever.

Allie Ward
And I was like, none of these shows in, like, the top 20 topics, 50 have the e next to them in science. If you go into the comedy, sure. Crime, sure. But science, no. And I was like, there's got to be a reason for that.

And so for me, like, keeping my voice authentic was a really big struggle because I was like, well, what if I do that and then no one listens? Like, what if people want to listen to this for their kids? And then I just blow it all because I wanted to say the f word a couple times. And so I really struggled with it. And I realized, like, what was missing from my life, like, creatively and what was missing from science communication I wanted to listen to was that candor, you know, like in a comedy show or something, saying what you feel is always, like, the best route.

Being authentic is just the best route. And so being able to do that in a science communication was, like, felt more authentic and felt more me. And I don't know, I took the risk doing it, and I'm so glad I took the risk doing it. It was really hard. I really did not know if I was going to alienate a huge audience or bring embarrassment to the science community or whatever, and by talking like a real person.

But I heard scientists, friends of the nerd brigade, people that I knew from the museum, talk like people. And I was like, that's great. And a lot of what I would hear on NPR was just these really sanitized sound bites where every scientist sounded the same. And I felt like, you know, the 2016 election in America was weird for a lot of people. Very anti science sentiments started around then.

A lot of climate change deniers, things like that. Flat earthing started around then. So I was like, well, the people who are voting are not Sikhs, you know, they're adults. And so getting adults engaged with science and letting them understand that scientists were not like people in lab coats. Judging them, I felt, was really important.

So I was like, I'm just going to be authentic, and I'm going to let scientists be authentic. And if I fail, then I fail. And I'm so glad I did. And I'd still get people being like, I wanted to listen to this with my eight year old. And I was like, your eight year old has so many options for kids science entertainment.

And I've worked on them. I've worked on brainchild, I've worked on Ada Twist. I've been working on Innovation Nation for ten years. And there's plenty, trust me. So that's why we started doing smologies, to offer that to people.

But also, you know, I think it's good to inspire kids, too, and I like that we don't really talk down to them with it. But, yeah, it was a tough decision. I'm glad I made it, though. Me too. It's much more gratifying to be appreciated for who you are than to be appreciated for who you're not.

And I think that that's important with science communication. It's like your voice makes you different. Like, whatever is weird about you makes you who you are, and that's you're irreplaceable. No one can be you if you're yourself. But if you're trying to be like everyone else, you're very replaceable and you don't stand out.

And there are so many science communication jobs I've gotten because of ologies, because I showed up in a voice that was my own. And then they're like, oh, we want one of those. And you're like, okay, you didn't before, you know, like, I didn't think anyone wanted this before. And you know what? I think we all know it's a lie that adults always have to take things seriously.

Mercedes Maitland
And I think this show really proves that adults need to have fun with learning, too, especially as it becomes more and more obvious how badly we need grownups to love and appreciate and trust science. So a lot of you had questions about navigating this weird, shifting social and political environment as science communicators, including Shannon Wright, Michael in Seattle, Jacqueline Church, Felix LaSalle, and Amber McIntyre asks, have you had to adapt communication in recent years? They say if you're not offering a catchy headline or an article that isn't too long, you're losing audiences. Earl of Gramilkin, who asks great questions all the time, asks, what do you think the future of Scicom looks like? Antonia Clark says, what moves today is public compared to 20 or even 50 years ago.

Chris Whitman asked about we seem to be living in a country of evidence based politics and faith based politics. Being that we are in a political shitstorm season right now. Yes, we are. Chris, what is the relationship between science education and those who have some level of science education and what political party? I know that's a lot.

I just threw a lot at you. Great questions. Those are so relevant. And it's just like, I think that's kind of what I'm trying to do, like coming through the back door where it's like, if people don't want to click on something that's about climate change, because they're like, I'm bummed out enough. The things that we see online, especially in the last eight months, I feel like people are constantly devastated.

Allie Ward
The democratization of media is excellent for giving voice to people who are voiceless. It's also a lot to take in. And what we take in is tough because our dopamine centers might want something pleasing. We might get a little bit of adrenalized from seeing things that are scary. Also, our humanity wants to know what's going on with people suffering.

So it's really hard to know how much you should be compassion led in what you are looking to consume and how much you are a scapist. And so I think that if it bleeds, it leads is something they say in the journalism industry. And I remember seeing that when I was working at the LA Times. A huge celebration in the newsroom for a Pulitzer. That was one for a ghastly, ghastly story.

They did a great job covering it. They're also, it's a business and they got a lot of eyeballs on it. And so this thing where the more you can scare people, the more they're gonna click is something that's just psychology. People are fucking tired, man. It has been a shitstorm politically.

There are genocides that are going on in multiple countries. Climate change is like, it's a lot. We've been through a pandemic, dude. Like, we've been through a lot, right? And so instead of telling people care about this because it's a shit storm, giving people context to appreciate the thing that's at risk, I feel like is more helpful.

And so telling someone, this is why you should love this thing, PS is a little bit of danger might make them take more action or care more, or be able to ingest headlines about disastrous things with more context and with more emotion, as opposed to just hammering people who feel helpless. So doom and gloom are not great motivators. Why bother learning something new or changing your attitudes or beliefs or actions if everything around you is telling you that it's all going to suck regardless? There is a lot of suck in the world. There is a lot of suck in the world.

Mercedes Maitland
But without some joy and some hope and some reasons to care, why bother? Now, real quick, I wanted to get back to that part of Chris's question where he asked about the relationship between science education and political identity. So, I don't know, Chris. Maybe you're looking to know how many Republicans versus Democrats have studied science, but I have something that I think might be even more interesting. So in a 2015 paper called what is the science of science?

Communication, Dan M. Cahan writes, if the reason members of the public fail to take climate change as seriously as scientists think they should is that the public lacks the knowledge and capacity necessary to understand empirical information, then we would expect the gap between public and expert perceptions to narrow as members of the public become more science literate and more proficient in critical reasoning. But that does not happen. Members of the public who score highest in one or another measure of science comprehension, studies show, are no more concerned about global warming than those who score the lowest. So why are some people more concerned than others, even when they all have access to the same stuff?

Well, Cahan discovered that risk perception about certain things like climate change and fracking, was different for Republicans and Democrats. The more liberal you lead politically, the more likely you are to see those things as very risky. Okay, that's easy enough to wrap your mind around if you don't live under a rock. But here's where it gets really weird. The higher people score on measures of science comprehension, the more the political divide widens.

Conservatives tend to see even less risk in climate change and fracking, the more that they know about science. What? Why? So Kahan and others who have figured this out think that people who are most practiced at using reasoning skills about scientific knowledge can then use that power for good or if their ingroups cultural disposition demands otherwise they could use it for bad by using those reasoning skills to cherry pick and explain their way into seeing what they want to see. So there's good news and there's bad news about this.

The good news is researchers only see this pattern for topics that have become strongly tied with political identity. The bad news is we are seeing a lot of political polarization these days and that's not looking like it's going to get better in the next, I don't know, five, five months. So what the hell do we do about it? I think that it's changing a little bit in terms of having to offer something that's not fear based and having to offer something that's not like you're in danger. So you better listen to this.

Allie Ward
Like you're in danger, you're in danger, you're in danger. I just don't think that's good for people and I don't think at the end of the day it's as effective as having people appreciate things at risk. You know what I mean? I do. Okay?

Mercedes Maitland
I do. And that's something that I struggle with myself, like with everything that's been happening over the last eight months and trying to, you know, get people to kind of. To care, to pay attention. Yeah. Is kind of threading that line of being like this.

This is serious and it does affect us. But also not wanting to shut people down off. Yeah, right. Yeah. The genocide episode, fucking excruciating to work on.

Allie Ward
We worked on it for months and that was, that was really encouraged by you. I was, I was afraid to crack into it and not do it justice. I was really afraid to put out information that could be questioned or put out something that was too much of an op ed. Cause so much of our news is through a filter of enraged op eds to where it just becomes noise. And that episode was the most challenging one we've done by far.

And it felt like writing a thesis, you know, and having to approach that in a way that wasn't like, I'm going to tell you what to think about this, but with this context, I'm going to let you make up your own mind instead of yelling at you what to think, here's arming you with a lot of information that you can then take away and feel confident in your own convictions. But it was a really tough thing to be. Like, I want to put out information where people can take it as fact and then not have it be something that they can argue against, because things are so, so politicized and it's so us versus them. And so much of that is so fear based. It's really rooted in fear, trying to come up with humanity for anyone listening and, like, appeal to a common humanity.

And it's tough because sometimes you want to scream. That doesn't always help things. Yeah, it's been a lot. It's been a lot. It's been a lot.

Mercedes Maitland
Okay, I'm gonna go from there to. I've got. Oh, wait. Can I interrupt you for a second? Yeah, absolutely.

Allie Ward
I do want to put a pin on that last thing and say how instrumental you were putting that episode out. I don't think I would have taken on that topic without your encouragement and conviction and your research on it. You researched the shit out of that episode. I could not have done that on my own without you following up on so many facts, fact checking, so much stuff. And that was a hugely collaborative episode.

And in terms of the way that you produced that, not just edited it, but produced it. And so I just want to, behind the scenes, let people know how much the voices on our team matter, and in particular, how instrumental you were for making a really, really important episode that I'm so proud of that we did. And it wouldn't have happened without you. So kiss, kiss. Thank you.

Mercedes Maitland
I've been told I don't know how to handle compliments, so I'm going to stick with thanks, and let's. Let's keep truckin'you're. Welcome. Okay, look, it went against all my instincts to leave that compliment in there, but I know that dad Ward set it on record for a reason. Now, for an abrupt change of topic, a couple patrons asked about navigating the flood of misinformation and pseudoscience out there on the interwebs and how we can get folks excited about science, including Patricia Evans, Amy Grace, Laura Raja, and Cheyenne Montgomery.

Says they're a high school science teacher, and they spend a lot of time worrying about the flood of misinformation and disinformation that is pushed into social media feeds. They say, one thing I've noticed about experts selling pseudoscience conspiracy is that they're very sure of themselves.

They say they have proof. And for some reason, people seem to feel comforted and trusting of information delivered in this way, whereas an actual scientist will say things like, this is the best model we have right now. That's not a satisfying answer for a lot of people. Yeah. In a world where everything feels scary and uncertain all the time, how do science communicators help people be more comfortable with science as an ongoing process and inoculate against fake science?

Allie Ward
Damn good question. I think getting people geeked out about journal articles, a great way to go. Amazing way to go if you can somehow make a scavenger hunt with journal articles and be like, okay, these are the facts we need to find. Find what you can in the most updated journal article. Give me the bibliography, cite the source, look, and tell me if there are any conflicts of interest at the bottom.

Tell me who funded the study. Tell me if it's been peer reviewed. Tell me what the p values are on it. Okay, hold up. I want to talk about p values real quick.

Mercedes Maitland
In a nutshell, super simplified. A p value is a number between one and zero that tells you how likely a finding is the result of chance. So the lower the number, the more stock we can put in those findings. Typically, p values below 0.05 or 5% are considered significant, meaning there's a good chance that the researchers are onto something, but go up just a little bit to over 0.1. And scientists typically say that that's not significant.

10% is too big a chance that the findings don't mean what we thought they might. I think it's really key that people understand how basic statistics like this work because it goes to show just how rigorous and certain the data have to be before scientists really make claims about anything. And making it like a scavenger hunt of those rabbit holes, because it starts to get really fun when you can start to read papers and find what you're looking for, see the citations in them, follow that citation. There's so much on Wikipedia where you see the tiny number citation after a fact. I don't know what the percentage of people who click on that citation and then go to the paper to find the fact, but you find out way cooler stuff when you hit the citation.

Allie Ward
That's where a lot of my rabbit holes start. But I think that getting them comfortable with scientific literature is great. That's the backstage, that's the vip area of facts. I feel like the facts you read in headlines or on social media are the kind of like the puppets that you might see. But then the scientific literature is like the weirdos holding the puppets and everything behind the scenes.

And so I think getting into that to fact check things on your own. And also consider what money is to be made. Is someone peddling a nutrition program? Is someone selling you a jaw exerciser? Is someone selling something?

Because a lot of times, scientists themselves who couch things in, this is the best we know. It depends. They're not selling you anything. And so I think that that is kind of important. But get people excited about literature.

I think that's fun as shit. So, for the patrons who asked about reading and accessing journals and dealing with Jargon, including Katie Hammond, Kelly Dooling, Alia Myers, Rowena Z, and first time question Asker Jian, you are asking the right questions when it comes to dealing with jargon. I mean, man, I feel ya. Unfortunately, so much scientific writing is still so heavy with technical language, and I think the biggest solution to that, besides honestly googling, has to be a culture shift. As for paywalls, it can be hard if you don't know anyone with access to a university database.

Mercedes Maitland
Luckily, I think we're really seeing a shift towards free, open source research. But that's not helpful if you're GN and need to pay $30 to read your own paper. Oh my God. Okay, so I certainly would not recommend visiting Sci dash hub se to check for copies of paywalled articles. Okay?

All right. You hear me? Do not. Don't do it. Don't go to Sci hub se and enter the DOI of a paywalled paper.

There's. I definitely have not done that once or five times in the past week or have that tab open on my browser right now because I follow the rules, even when they're ridiculous. I've got a really good one here from Tiger Yuty, who asks, why does spewing facts get so many humans to dig in their heels even more with wrong beliefs? Why do we need an emotional connection to be willing to entertain a logical change? Or most of us, they say.

Allie Ward
Oh, that's a great question. Hi, Tiger. Goody. I think it all comes down to empathy. I think when people are digging their heels in, they're digging their heels in not because of the facts, but what the facts mean to them.

So if you tell them locusts are coming, you better watch out. There is a shit ton of locusts. They're about to erupt, and they don't want to believe that because that puts something at stake for them. Or, you know, like they had a bad experience with locusts in their past or whatever. I think that it's the facts that they don't want to accept are usually the ones that are threatening to them that are threatening to who they are or what their connection to their social support system is.

So they want to dig in because it threatens them and what they have at stake. And so I think that you have to come at it with empathy. Like, why is this person defending this fact that might not be true? What does it mean to them? What are they scared of?

Or how do they feel judged? Because when you judge someone with a fact, what's at stake is their own humanity and their own intelligence. And so a polarizing yelling at people just doesn't work. Like, if you screamed at someone, like, get out of the fucking road. What are you doing?

You'd be like, fuck you. I was trying to drive here. But if someone's like, can you pull up a little bit? You're like, oh, yeah. Oh, sorry.

You know, and so that, like, limbic system is what my therapist talks about. Limbic system, fight or flight, all of that anxiety. And when your limbic system is engaged, your prefrontal cortex kind of goes offline as they explain it in very, very, very simple terms. And so your ability for, you know, rationalizing, judgment, all that stuff gets a little bit hijacked by your limbic system being like, you're in danger. And so I think thinking about human brains, and that's just how we're wired to work.

We're wired to pay attention to whatever's threatening, taking the temperature down, and understanding that everyone's coming from something out of fear and protection, and trying to understand that we're all in this as a humanity. I agree. And you know what? This is another one of those great examples. When I say, like, yeah, okay, I went and got a masters in Scicom, but you don't need a master's to be good at ScicOm, necessarily.

Mercedes Maitland
Is that everything that you've just said there is related to a concept that we were taught in that program? Really? Yes, that's right. One of the coolest, trickiest things I learned about changing people's minds is that sometimes facts can truly be perceived as threats, especially if those facts challenge a core belief about your own identity or worldview or values. So, in their 2016 paper, neural correlates of maintaining one's political beliefs in the face of counter evidence, Kaplan, Gimbel, and Harris found that people who were less likely to shift their core beliefs when presented with conflicting information had more activity in the insular cortex and the amygdala brain, structures which react to perceptions of threat, uncertainty, anxiety, and fear, and which help us use our emotions to make decisions, put simply, they say, one interpretation of these activations in the context of our study is that these structures are signaling threats to deeply held beliefs in the same way they might signal threats to physical safety.

So most studies that have looked into this phenomenon have poked at people's political beliefs rather than their beliefs about science. But I think we can all see how seemingly straightforward facts have become so entangled with politics. And when we start to lump apparently objective facts into a neat little package with other things that we believe in, like economic policy, especially when we attach a moral value to them, we run the risk of being blinded by our commitment to our in group. So how do we fix that? First, like Ali said, we can take the temperature down, work on assigning less moral value to whether or not people believe a certain fact.

Second, you can try something called moral reframing rather than just telling someone why they're wrong, even if you do it nicely, we can remind them how that fact or that idea fits in with another part of their identity. Maybe in a way they're in group doesn't tend to talk about so much. So, for example, if, you know, politically conservative people tend to be more anti mask, but also really value in group loyalty and national identity, finding a way to help them see how wearing a mask can be a sign of loyalty to protecting the people and the country they care about from harm has actually been shown to help move the needle when it comes to changing minds. And Ally says it's been helpful for her, too, to have family who have different political beliefs because it helps her understand the fears and the motivations behind the things that she disagrees with. And I know its cheesy, but coming from a place of love and empathy can go a long way.

Just dont expect to see changes overnight. It can take years of relationship building with people with wildly opposing views to come around, if ever. And thats why smart people are always telling us not to waste our time arguing with people on the Internet. But what about talking to the people you already know are nerds? Thank you to these next two patrons for asking the questions that kept me up the night before we recorded this.

So first timer Emily Woodland says, how much do you have to know about a given topic going into an interview to ask interesting and engaging questions? And Caro Young asks, how do you structure your interviews? They say, I'm always amazed when there are 500 PatReon questions and you manage to summarize them and also balance them out with your own. So what is your process for interviewing Ally? Do you come into it with a list of questions that you want to ask.

Do you come into it kind of like I did today to soothe my own anxiety of being like, we're just going to have a chat, and it's just going to be a conversation. That's a great question. And thanks to you and Noelle in the past, and now Susan, who sorts the Patreon questions ahead of time for me, because I used to try to do that myself, and it's a lot of work. It is. That was one of my first jobs as an intern with sorting, actually.

Here's a fun tidbit. The very, very first thing I ever did working for ologies was sorting everybody's penis questions. Oh, was that the first episode? That was the first thing I ever did. The very first thing.

And it was incredible. It was great. But it took hours. We gave you an actual bag of dicks. Yes.

Allie Ward
We're like, here you go. I was like, this is perfectly on par for this show. This is 100% what I signed up. For, and it changed the way I asked them. So sometimes, yeah, you get thrown hundreds of dick questions, and what would the show be without knowing the general scope of those?

And, yeah, I go into it knowing kind of, like, the general topics that people want asked, and I read all the questions. And so, by the way, if you're a first time question asker, but I haven't said your name on the show, keep putting. First time question Asker. It doesn't guarantee that I'll say it, because we have so many, but I try to prioritize them. But, yeah, so I don't like to research the ologist a lot, because then I already know their backstory, and it's not as fun because I know their backstory, but the audience doesn't.

And so I'm really a proxy for the audience. I feel like I show up like me and the audience are on one side of the table and the experts on the other. And so I feel like the more I know, the more it's me and the expert on one side, and then we're inviting the audience to enjoy, which feels exclusionary, and I don't like it. And so sometimes I'll try not to dig into too deep into someone's past, but I'll usually have, like, a little list of questions I'll write on my phone that are just, like, some basics. And if I see that the patrons, like, 50 or 60 patrons, ask the same question, I'll move that into my questions I'm going to ask before the break.

Because then I know that it's something on a lot of people's minds they're going to want to hear up top. And also because that's a lot of patrons names to say. And some people are like, why do you list them all? And it's like, because they pay for the show and because they asked it. And it's a good question and because it's great to hear your name on one of the shows you listen to.

And so I like people to know that they are being listened to and that they're part of the show. We love you. But I think I like to ask those questions that essentially what not smart means to me is ask the questions that aren't asked to impress an expert. Ask the questions that you actually have. Like, ask uninformed questions.

Because a lot of interviewers, I think, to show off that they belong there, try to ask questions that the expert will go, oh, you've done your research on the subject, which is great between you and the expert, but the audience is like, what are you talking about? So sometimes it's good to ask those basic questions, and oftentimes I get told, like, the basic questions are, like, fundamentally the best ones because that's what got them into the field or that's what they don't know yet. Those are, like, the misconception questions. So I go into it, but with a very large amount of embarrassment and humility, just being like, I'm gonna head in here and I'm gonna look like a fool. And that is okay.

That's my job. It's not to impress anyone, but it's just to be the audience. So I love doing that. I love showing up like someone who doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about. It's interesting because it's something that I kind of discovered doing a few assignments that I did in my grad degree is that, like, I came into this program with a bachelor of science in anthropology, which is, like, not.

Mercedes Maitland
It's not a hard science. It's science. But I felt, I don't know, a little, like, insecure and that, like, I didn't take a ton of straight biology courses or chemistry or physics or whatever. Right? And then I'm working with these other students to help them come up with about biology.

And I was like, you know what? I think this is actually better that I don't know, because it helps you get in the mindset that your audience is going to be in. And rather than lecturing them, you're learning with them. Yeah. And it's hard to know.

Once you're an expert in something. It's really easy to forget that other people don't know these things totally, especially because so many of us who are, you know, nerdy like this, it takes up so much of our world and our brain space, right. That it's like, does a fish know what water is? You know? Yeah, it's true.

Allie Ward
And it's a great way to bond with your audience, too. You're like, I don't know this either. Well, a ton of people had questions about becoming a psychomer, including Faith Stemler, Amity Bliss, Kelly Toller, Charlotte Parkinson, by the way. No, not too late. Peregrine, Cynthia B.

Mercedes Maitland
Anna Elizabeth Nicole Harper, Olivia Lester, Rick T. Cece Tinknell, Sophie Dave Miller, PhD, Betsy B. Cheryl W. And first time question asker, death knell, which is a great profile name, by the way. They ask how much science education or other relevant education, such as writing, communication, education, statistics, et cetera, do you think it's generally good to have to be a good science communicator?

Did you have to go to school for any of that, or for science communication itself? And then a lot of other people asked, just like, how do you break into this? Is this stuff that you need to go to school for? Yeah. Stacy Pinkiewicz asked, can you share some reflections on the best way to break into psychom as a career path?

Like, is the best way to do it going viral on TikTok? Short form sketches about plant facts or writing a blog or a comic? Is there a solid, realistic academic route or internships? Just knowing all the right people? And I say, I'm sure there isn't one linear way to be a science communicator, but I would love to hear your thoughts on that.

Allie Ward
Great question. Great question. Okay, here I'm going to distill it down into things I think work. All right, all right, here we go. Here's what I think works.

Number one. Curiosity. Be curious. Continue remaining curious or fostering curiosity. Ask yourself on a piece of paper or Google Doc, whatever, what would your dream career be?

Write it down like no one is ever going to see it. Write out what your dream life and dream career would be. And it can be really hard to do it. I remember when I first wrote down that I wanted to be someone who writes or makes tv or wants to be in front of the camera or whatever. It felt so embarrassing because what if someone found it and was like, oh, really?

You? Yes, I feel that. Do it, do that. Be honest with yourself. Sky's the limit, right?

Because just admitting it to yourself and seeing the words on paper or in pixels put something in your head where you remember that that's where you want to be, and little tiny steps that could take you there become something that you're willing, maybe, to put yourself out there for. And another thing I would say, if you can take some classes, I think it's great to have some background, because there are a lot of questions, a lot of things that I'm able to look into. I have that biology background, that chemistry or environmental science background, like, you know, generalist stuff, because I. I can read scientific papers better, and I can digest them better, and I can look for the facts I'm looking for. And JC is amazing.

Junior colleges, community colleges, amazing. Even if it's just something that you want to take on your own or online college or whatever gets the information into your brain. I know a lot of people who went to really expensive colleges who didn't learn shit because they bought papers from someone else, and then they got a degree and freaked out when they graduated because then they'd have to get a job because they'd never had a job before at Ivy League colleges. And then I know people who are geniuses at botany with a library card. And so it really depends on how much you put into it and how much you love it.

Sharpen writing skills is always helpful, if you can, just to sort of get an excitement for writing and how words are used and what words are most authentic to you. So there you have it, folks. Allie's quick guide to becoming a psychometer. And for those of you who asked if they'd recommend more people get into the field, including Merg and Doug Pace, I say, hell, yeah. There are so many ways to be a science communicator, and we need them badly.

Mercedes Maitland
And not every scicom job is public facing or in the entertainment industry, either. Anytime you're creating content or communicating in some way about a science topic to someone who's not an expert in that exact topic, you're doing scicom. So, Stephanie, who says, I am not a science communicator, but I do create content in a specialized field that I did not study? Well, I've got news for you. You sound like a science communicator to me.

So, being a science communicator could mean you're briefing politicians on what they need to know to make an informed stance on a policy issue. Or you're working with a marketing team on advertising a new product, or you're a patient advocate at a hospital, or you're talking to kids about coyote pelts at a natural history museum. I also think there's a ton of room for more efforts in Scicom between different scientific disciplines too, like, say, evolutionary anthropology and public health. But to get there, let's recap. Okay, so that's.

Allie Ward
What is that? Stay curious. Write down your goals. Get some classes wherever you can get them, and think about your voice. What is your voice?

Are you someone who likes to spend a lot of time alone drawing comics? Great. You don't have to be great at drawing comics. You really don't. You can kind of just start drawing them.

Are you someone who wants to write songs about science? Is anyone out there doing that a lot? Probably. No. Does that mean it shouldn't be done?

No. It means that the world is waiting for you. So go do it. Are you someone that wants to be an anchor on a tv show? Whatever.

So ask yourself what medium makes you feel like, on fire in a good way and in terms of making your own content? TikTok. Yes. Instagram, sure. I don't love that these are big media corporations that make money off of us, but that's also a really great way to get your voice out there.

And if you're talking about something you're excited about, if you are giving context to people and knowing, what are they going to take away from this? How is this going to change your life a little bit? Is it funny? Is it relatable? Whatever.

Is it your voice? Putting your voice out there makes you something that people then become to seek. So trying to be like other science communicators, it's not worth your time. Be yourself. Be as weird as you want to be.

Be weirder than you think you should be. Like, on my desk, I have a bunch of little inspirational quotes for when I have my inevitable weekly writing anxiety, which I go through constantly, even though I've written so many tens of thousands of words in my life. But I have things that are post it notes that say, be weirder than you think you can be. I have one that says, because it's only a rough draft, just be weirder than you think you can be. And keep putting stuff out.

If it doesn't get hits right away, keep making it. Keep making it. And make sure that you like making it. Make sure that you would do it for fun, too, you know, because you get better at it and you start to find your audience. And, I mean, I think if you don't see someone like you doing it, that means that the world needs you there more.

Like, I've always thought that where, like, if you don't see yourself in the room, that doesn't mean that you don't belong there. It means that the room needs you more. You know, I had a ton of friends in the comedy scene, and I did some comedy stuff, you know, years ago, and I would see on the back then on the bills, it was all men. It was all men, mostly white men. Maybe there'd be one girl on the bill and, yeah, there was a thought like, well, maybe it's just like, they maybe just do women not do betters?

Like, there'd be that little sinking feeling, that little misogynist thing where it's like, yeah, is Christopher Hitchens right? Are women not fun? Like what? You know? And then you're like, no, it was fucked.

It was. Cause no one was paying attention to women or non binary people in comedy. You know what I mean? And you have to remember that the imposter syndrome is just a byproduct of someone not wanting you there. And fuck it, you know, is really important.

I, like, forget that I'm like a female science podcaster. I used to get a lot of questions about that in the beginning. What's it like being a woman doing psychom? And I remember being like, what? Oh, I guess that actually, that was.

Mercedes Maitland
A question that Matt Thompson asked. Really? Yes. What are some issues you've seen as a female science communicator compared to your male contemporaries? Oh, my God.

Allie Ward
I was told straight up by a massive network that their audience did not want to hear about science from a person like me. What the fuck? A woman or a person like a co host I had done a pilot with who was a black man. They straight up were like, they don't want to hear about science from you. This was probably, this is before ologies, so this is at least, like, seven, eight years ago.

And I remember being appalled, and I was like, are you fucking a, are you thinking that? And b, are you saying that to me? And I was like, well, fuck you and your network. I don't want to make science for people that can't see people as people. Like, that's nuts, you know?

Yeah. So, I mean, I've definitely been up against it for sure. I've had producers tell me they'll let me know when it's time to re up my botox. When it's time to get Botox, they'll let me know. Oh, all of it.

You know, it's funny because a lot of it is just, like, rolled right off my back. Like, what the fuck? But I forget that I'm. That I'm, like a woman science commuter. I'm just like, I'm a raccoon in pants, and I'm just out here fumbling around, doing my thing.

Like, I. For. You know, when you are who you are, you forget, yeah, that's not how you look at yourself, but you forget that the world looks at you that way. I think it's gotten better. I think that the LGBTQ movement and the trans community has done so much to break down gender and to show people that it is much more of a construct.

And in the future, we'll look back and see just the gender binaries is absolutely bonkers and archaic. And so I think that movement in the last several years has really opened the doors for a lot of people to say, fuck you, instead of, like, this is what it is, so you deal with it, you know? Yeah. But, yeah, it's also infuriating to be like, oh, okay, before I go on camera, I have to spend an hour in makeup, gluing hair onto my eyeballs while my co host just, like, puts on a black t shirt and is like, sweet. I'll be eating hard boiled eggs, look at my phone, and you're like, you know, it's like when you're in a.

Mercedes Maitland
Wedding party and, like, the guys are like, we're gonna go join drink on the golf course while you all spend 4 hours getting your hair and makeup done, getting up at 06:00 a.m. we'll roll out of bed hungover at eight and go play some golf. I hate it. It is also invariably, every single dating profile always has a guy in a suit drinking whiskey on a golf course, being like, I clean up nice, and you're like, oh, this is from your cousin's life. We have very different.

We have very different caliber of men up here. But the joke up here is that, like, if he's not holding a fish, like, is he even real? I'm very natural. I've heard that. Anyway, this is such a tangent, but.

It'S so fun when you have single friends and they have dating profiles and you can go and play those games. I know, I know. Okay, we're gonna get to. We're at now 2 hours and 16 minutes because we just cannot stop. Of course, naturally, these last questions, I wonder if you know what they might be.

It's gonna be a big surprise. Just low a number of listeners, including Olivia, Lester and Denny and Earl of Granvillekin at Carly and Tanner. In Carly and Tanner's words, they say, woohoo. Congrats on the 300th episode. Only feels fitting to ask the classic questions, what's your favorite part of making ologies?

And your least favorite part. And I know you talked about this a little bit in the AMA you did with Jarrett back in December. So I wonder if maybe you might want to go abroad and tell me about the best and worst parts about being a science communicator generally. Oh, for sure. I always like to ask the worst first because I like to end on a high note, which doctor Dirk Moses called me out on.

Allie Ward
He was like, you Americans always want something optimistic. And I was like, this is absolutely mortifying. It. I asked that in this, you know, but the worst part about the job, can I say two? Can I gripe?

Double gripe? Yeah, man. Okay. One of the hardest things about the job that's not petty is also a great thing, because I love the community. I love learning from the community.

I apologize. Like, I consider every listener like a collaborator on the show because they teach me so much. They constantly give me upgrades to my software. You know, I'm learning about things that have changed. I'm just learning about so many different perspectives.

I think sometimes it gets hard for me when I'm holding so many different perspectives in my brain to remain authentic when I'm judging myself before I say something or when I'm. I want to be really, really inclusive. But I also know that I can't touch every base for every single listener in every episode. And so sometimes if people are like, oh, there's too many asides they don't know. The backstory of, like, that aside is to maybe correct something that was exclusionary or something that was antiquated or to include more people who weren't included in that statement.

And so trying to be as inclusive as possible sometimes is a really hard moving target, and it changes from maybe year to year. Or I know that I am going to unintentionally piss someone off or hurt someone or exclude someone just because there's so many people in the world and everyone has an individual experience. And so I have to try to remain myself while also keeping a lot of friends in mind at the same time friends who might have conflicting opinions. So that can be hard because it can keep me too much in my head when I'm doing interviews and when I'm writing. And that can be really, that can be tough to try to get everyone while also making things succinct.

Mercedes Maitland
Do you have a strategy? Do you have, like, a go to to work around that? I think always coming from a place of good intentions is good. I think if something rubs you the wrong way where you're like, I think this is going to exclude people. I think it's good to listen to that voice.

Allie Ward
And I remember an early episode, I was talking to a friend, and I was like, I've got to go back in and include, because we can take an episode down, edit it, and put it back up, which we've done. If we've ever had an error, as soon as we know that there's an error and omission, like, if someone lets us know or if we realize, like, we fix it as soon as possible and it's happened, you know, a handful of times, not that often, but it happens. Like, I'm sad of someone being, like, I'm not being seen more than I am about someone being, like, mad at me. And so I think coming at it from don't let your own limbic system kind of, like, hijack your empathy or humanity. So a few of you wanted to know how Allie manages the downsides of this hectic job, including Lainey McKeating, Anna Thompson, and first time question Asker Emily Woodland, who asked about finding balance, and Earl of Gramlkin, and Josephine Murdoch, who asked about how she handles anxiety and imposter syndrome.

But it's funny because I learned a little bit about my procrastination or my anxious procrastination, my difficulty sometimes in starting or finishing things because they won't be perfect. And you know, that rumination part of it is, is someone going to be mad at me? Is someone going to be mad at me? Is someone going to be mad at me? Am I going to not do this topic justice?

Am I going to admit something? Am I going to put out a fact that might be outdated, which then gets quoted and is bad for the cause? Like, all of those things. And I've learned that I really have to just jump in and start and do my best with it. And that's why, Susan, fact checking you, fact checking, so helpful to make sure that we're good.

But I have to trust the process and know that I can start and I can correct as I write, you know? Yeah. And so I want to do the best I can with them, except myself, who sometimes I treat like a robot. But I'm learning. And the other worst thing, social media.

It's so hard. Social media is the other one. It's so hard because it's like, as soon as I start posting, and then I get sucked into it. But that's. Again, like, I have to treat it like, pretend that there's a huge deadline, or pretend that there's someone waiting.

The wings being like, I'm gonna do it first, and then I just have to jump in. Although I did find out that recently that I have a fake account. Someone is impersonating me on TikTok, and I saw a bunch of people, like Latif from Radiolab. Like, a bunch of people are following it, and it's not me. And it's a horrible picture of me.

It's. It's like, ally Ward. And I was like, it. It was like, do you want to follow Ally? Underscore Ward?

And I was like, what the fuck is this? So, yeah, that's. That's not me. Ally Ward. Not our pod dad.

Mercedes Maitland
We'll link the real Ally ward in the show notes, but if you're dying to take a scroll break, I mean, weird. It's basically the end of the episode, but it's fine. You do you. The real deal is Allie ologies. All right.

What is the best part about being a science communicator? What's your favorite thing?

Allie Ward
No week is the same. Like, no week is the same. We've done this every week for almost seven years, and every episode is scary to start. Every single one, I'm afraid, is going to be the one that makes people stop listening. That's hard.

But I have learned so much, I forget. As much as I include the audience, I forget that they're learning all this stuff, too. I don't know what I think happens when I publish an episode. I don't know what I think they're getting, but I'm grateful for doing this because I just like it. I like to know what the deal is with mantis faces, and I like to know what's, you know, going on with, like, fish sticks or whatever.

And I don't even think fish have dicks, but you know what I mean? I gotta relisten to ichthyology. But I forget that all of the weird stuff I know are things that the audience knows. Like, I forget that they're getting that, too. And so I think a lot of times when people are like, oh, it's a good show, I'm like, is it?

And then I'm like, oh, they're getting what I'm getting, too. And I'm doing it for me because I want to learn this stuff because, like, there's that kid that would sit there and read an insect field guide in the depths of it and, like, learning the range of like, a snow flea that lives nowhere near me, stuff like that. And so that's the fact that I'm always learning something is great. And I really credit ologies with making me understand myself more too, of like, what my authentic voice was. And I think that it's been really rewarding to be able to make the ologists like, rock stars.

Like, that was my goal that I wrote on a piece of paper before I ever started the podcast. It's like I wanted people to be a just rock stars. Like, if you saw someone whose work you really liked or someone who's famous or something, like being an ologist of any kind was something that people want. Ooh. Because anyone who studies something with a passion or in depth has a trove of knowledge that is hidden all the time.

And so I wanted people to have the same kind of reverence and awe and giddiness about an expert in leopards or pants as they would someone who was, you know, had a bit part on a tv show or had a leading part in a movie or something. Right. And so that's been so gratifying to, like, to shine that light on people and to make, hopefully, people interested in other people if they wouldn't know that this person, you know, in line or in front of them at baggage claim is this expert, one out of like six scorpion experts in the world, like, like, what's that guy over there all about? Or what's that person's story? And so I hope that that's kind of what ologies does, is it makes it known that you don't have to be a pop culture celebrity or a comedian to be interesting and worth listening to.

You know, that everyone has a cool story and everyone has something that lights them up. So I love that. That's probably my favorite thing. It's general, but in terms of being a science communicator, like context and people and stories is so fun. I love that.

Mercedes Maitland
Yes. That's one of my favorite parts of this job, too, is that I get to learn different things. Always. Always. I get paid to be good at trivia, basically.

Allie Ward
It's great. I have not been to a bar trivia thing since I started the show, but. But I would be curious to see how well I do one thing that I have yet to do and my goal always my big, like, the thing I wrote down that I didn't want anyone to see, that I was, like, embarrassed to mention but I always wanted to be number one on the science charts. I wanted to, even if I just touched it for a second. And we've done that, which is, we've done that.

Amazing. Like amazing, amazing to have, you know, to be up there sometimes, to have been up there. It's so great. And my next goal is I want to read clues on jeopardy. For their ologies category.

It used to be called study groups, I think. But I have an email out to producers and they were like, it was during the strike. They're like, get back to us after the strike. And I haven't yet. And I want to read clues on jeopardy.

So bad. They shoot in LA. So any jeopardy. Writers, well, fingers crossed for you. Fingers crossed.

Mercedes Maitland
Resend that email. I will, I will. I'll follow up. Well, thank you very much for having this conversation with me. Thank you.

Allie Ward
Thanks for listening.

Mercedes Maitland
So ask brilliant people bumbling questions, cut bangs, text your professional crush, whisper your cringiest dreams into your diary. And above all, be good to each other. Folks, as usual, you can find Ally on Instagram and at and on TikTok. Ally ologies. And again, watch out for that ally impersonator.

If Scicom for adult audiences isn't your thing, you can find our kid friendly cuts in their very own smologies feed. We'll link that in the show notes. Thank you to patrons@patreon.com. ologies for keeping me company and submitting so many great questions all of these years. You can buy ologies merch@ologiesmerch.com.

thanks to Erin Talbert, moderator of the Ologies Facebook group Hivemind, and Aveline Malik of the wordery for making her transcripts. Noelle Dilworth is a scheduling producer. Susan Hale is a managing director. Editor for this episode is the talented Jake Chafee, who I am so happy to have sharing the load with me. Nick Thorburn wrote the theme music.

I'm Mercedes Maitland and I usually do not host, but just for today, here I am now. If you made it all the way to the end, thank you so much for trying something different with me today. I am no alie Ward, but I hope you got a kick out of it. So it's now 12:04 a.m. on Tuesday night.

Wednesday night I'm running on 4 hours of sleep and my back aches. I have written so many words in the last two days. Honestly, I have no idea. I have no idea how Allie has managed to do this every week for the last seven years. But I am in awe.

Ally, thank you so much for handing me your faberge egg and trusting me not to crack it too hard. Now, my secret is not that juicy. And I think after how genuinely scared shitless I have been to get this far into the episode, maybe that's okay. Maybe we can deal with that. But I will tell you that it was nearly 40 degrees celsius today.

That's around 100 for the Americans. And not only do I not have ac in my living room office, but I also couldn't run the fan while I recorded, so I did it in my underwear. There. Are you happy? You happy?

I am. All right. Thanks for listening.

Allie Ward
Cryptozoology, technology, meteorology, mathology, serology.

Mercedes Maitland
I am going to sleep well tonight.