Marooned in Miami - Are the Cracks in the Boat Growing? Meet at the Mitt Podcast

This episode explores the challenges faced by Seattle Mariners' players Bryce Miller and Logan Gilbert, focusing on their performance, management decisions, and the broader team dynamics during the ongoing season.

1. Bryce Miller's Performance: Bryce Miller is showing signs of struggling with his command, a common challenge for second-year pitchers. Despite inconsistency, his future as a frontline pitcher remains promising.
2. Expectations and Pressure: The high expectations for young pitchers are magnified due to the Mariners' lackluster offensive performance, placing undue pressure on the pitching staff.
3. Pitching Strategy and Health: The Mariners are cautious with pitchers to prevent long-term injuries, affecting decisions like pulling Logan Gilbert early from games.
4. Team Dynamics: The episode highlights a lack of offensive support, which compounds the pressure on pitchers and affects the team's ability to recover from deficits.
5. Future Outlook: Despite the current struggles, there is optimism about the pitchers' development and the strategic decisions made by the team management to ensure long-term success.

1: Introduction and Game Context

Hosts discuss the Mariners' current game against the Marlins, focusing on Bryce Miller's performance and the strategic decisions made during the game. Quotes include Evan James: "It's been a rough day, particularly for Bryce Miller on the mound."

2: Pitcher Development and Expectations

The discussion centers on the development trajectories of young pitchers and the realistic expectations that should be set for their performance. Quotes include Zach Mason: "The expectations for specifically Wu and Miller just seem so astronomically high all the time."

3: Pitching Management and Team Strategy

This segment delves into the team's management of pitcher workloads and the impact of these decisions on game outcomes and player health. Quotes include Evan James: "We place so much additional pressure on the starting pitchers to carry this team."

4: Reflections and Future Strategies

The hosts reflect on the broader implications of the day's game and discuss future strategies that could benefit the team. Quotes include Zach Mason: "It's not Miller's fault that he occasionally will do that. That's just what happens to pitchers."

1. Understanding Player Development: Recognize the natural development process for athletes, especially young pitchers, and adjust expectations accordingly.
2. Supporting Young Talent: Provide consistent support and constructive feedback to young players to help them navigate the pressures of professional sports.
3. Strategic Game Management: Encourage a balanced approach to player health and game strategy to maximize performance without risking long-term injuries.
4. Building Team Cohesion: Focus on building a supportive team environment where each player's role is valued and supported.
5. Long-Term Planning: Invest in long-term strategies that balance immediate game outcomes with future team and player development.

Hello Seattle Mariners fans!

Evan James is here with Anders Jorstad and Zach Mason to talk the Mariner sin the midst of an uninspiring road trip. As we sit here at about noon on June 23rd, the Mariners are down 2-6 to the Miami Marlins in line for a second consecutive losing series. Is the pitching away from T Mobile Park as bad as advertised on Twitter (I will never say “X”)? Are we seeing normal progression from B-Money or reason to worry? Is Luis Robert Jr. in play for a trade? What might the Mariners part with in the minor leagues? How will the return of Polanco shuffle the roster?

People

Evan James, Anders Georgetown, Zach Mason, Bryce Miller, Logan Gilbert

Companies

Seattle Mariners, Miami Marlins

Books

None

Guest Name(s):

None

Content Warnings:

None

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Evan James
18 plus hello, and welcome to the meet at the Mitt podcast. I'm Evan James. I'm joined today by my east coast lookout landing brethren, Anders Georgetown and Zach Mason. And as we sit here, it's about 1220, 512 30, and the Mariners are losing six two to the Miami Marlins. It's been a rough day, particularly for Bryce Miller on the mound. Zach, let me kick it over to you first. I know we've been watching the game Bryce has really struggled with his command today. What have you seen from him? And does this give you any additional concern given how he's looked on the road this year and just his development as a second year pitcher?

Speaker A
I think this is the development of a second year pitcher. That's what we're seeing. I think his command was not great today.

That happens with Bryce Miller sometimes. I think the fact that the metrics on the splitter were so good so quickly and that he could command it well enough for it to be a legitimate pitch and have it solve a lot of his lefty righty splits problems is really remarkable. And I don't think it can be overstated how hard that is. And some of the there are knock on effects to doing something like that. And I think we talked about this very early on in the season that the command of his fastball was going to be lagging because he didn't do the work that he normally does. I was hoping that he would have it really locked in by now. We've seen it in flashes, but he's been a little bit inconsistent and I think he's trying to do a lot really quickly. We forget how little time in the minor leagues he had. We talk about that with Brian Woo all the time, but it's also true of Bryce Miller, not to the same degree, but still also true that he he's not had a ton of time to develop. He has not had a ton of time with his secondaries in particular. And, you know, that's what I think is going on. It's discouraging that he hasn't been consistent, but I think in terms of, like, the really long term outlook, I still remain pretty optimistic about his ability to be a frontline pitcher.

Zach Mason
Yeah. And what do you guys think? This is another refrain that we sing a lot, I feel like. But the expectations for specifically Wu and Miller just seem so astronomically high all the time, to the point where like, yes, we are expecting big things from them. And I think a lot of that becomes because the offense has not produced to the level that we maybe hoped they would. And so a lot of the pressure is falling on the guys like Miller and Wu. And so when they have a bad adding bad outing, it's like very noticeable because we know that the offense is not really capable of putting up like nine runs or eight runs to save a bad start. Like, you know, we're watching this game now, so, like, for all we know, the Mariners could turn things around, which makes this kind of like a funny flashpoint to be talking at, but, like, I don't think any of us expect the Mariners to come down to come back from like a six two deficit, which seems like a super doable thing for a team that is going to win a division. Right? Right. Like a team that's going to win a division should be capable of coming back from down four runs. And I think that we just collectively don't have that faith in them and that because that we're like, you know, it deflates us when the starter gives up five runs because it's like, oh, well, that's the game, but it shouldn't be that way. And it's not Miller's fault that he occasionally will do that. That's just what happens to pitchers.

Evan James
You're not wrong. And I totally agree that we place so much additional pressure on the starting pitchers to carry this team because I think we all understand empirically that when you look at a series like, again, Cleveland, our starting pitching pitched relatively well. All things considered, there was kind of a clunker from Castillo, but otherwise you got decent starts from two of the games. And when our starting pitching doesn't pitch well, it feels like we have no pillars to lean on because in the other two games, even when our starting pitching was good in the Cleveland series, our bullpen was not in, our offense was not. And so you wind up with a one, one and two result from a three game stretches as a consequence of that. And I think we feel that pressure. And I think we're feeling that pressure today. You and I have been talking a little bit with Mariner muse on Twitter about Logan Gilbert's usage and pulling him in the 8th yesterday.

I think we're all feeling a combination of two factors. One is squeezed to get the most we can out of the starting pitchers and the pull of also understanding it's not their fault that they can't carry the water for the entire team, but they're being asked to because the offense is just not cutting it. And I think people are going to be upset with the way they played against the Marlins if they're not to score again over today's game. They're going to end games one and one and three of this series with four runs. And, like, the truth is that's not going to cut it no matter what the starting pitcher does. I think we all understand that that's not good enough. So we have to understand, when we're talking about pushing the starting pitchers in any context, be them struggling or not struggling, be it Logan or be it Bryce, that they're. They're carrying so much of the weight for the offense, not pulling their weight for this team.

Zach Mason
Right. Yeah. I just want to quickly, first of all, I want to say, you know, we did name drop Mariner Muse. I want to say before I go into this that I very much respect them, and I think that oftentimes, yeah, no, 100%. We are on this.

Evan James
No shade at all.

Zach Mason
We are on the same wavelength online very frequently, which is, I think, what makes it, like, stark when it's not that way. Because I'm very stubborn, and they're very stubborn, and so it's just, like, two colliding forces.

There's a couple things I want to say about Gilbert getting pulled and not completing the shutout. Cause I think that there are some people that were upset by that or were upset on Logan's behalf because they see a guy getting pulled from a game. By the way, a starter never wants to leave a game unless he's getting shelled. Right. Like, you will never see a starter, like, happily give up the ball. So I think that's one thing to consider, but a lot of it is the risk reward thing. Right. And I think that it's a totally reasonable thing. And I said this to, like, just want to see a pitcher throw a complete game shutout. Like, they're like, we are fans. We will have, like, these thoughts that, like, oh, I want to see this picture. I love do this really cool thing. Like, and I think that's a totally reasonable thing. But it is pretty undisputed that the more you throw, the more likely you are to get injured. And that is true both in the short term and the long term. Right. So the short term is like, pitches per game, and the long term is like, how many innings are they forcing you to throw over the course of the season? Like, that is all very proven, and I think that, Evan, you and I are in agreement that, like, we are cool with them pulling Logan Gilbert in a nine nothing game against the Marlins in June. Like, that. Like, if the team determines that they were maybe having some caution, they weren't confident that Logan was feeling totally up to the task throwing the 9th. I kind of trust that they would make that decision.

Two key points there, one being, and I don't know if this is a complete database, I feel like there's potential for some missed names here, but I looked at a database that had Tommy John surgeries in the big leagues, and the Mariners in this decade, in the 2020s, have had two starting pitchers get TJ James Paxton, which was in the first start of the season, and Robbie Ray, which also, he got hurt in the first start of the season. They tried to bring him back and then realized that he needed a TJ, so he ended up getting it later in the year. But this is all to say, like, the Mariners have not had an instance of, like, pushing a starter beyond his limits over the course of a season. Like, oh, crap, we really overworked this guy. He needs some, he needs surgery.

And I think that they have a plan that they have realized works in terms of pitcher workload, and they are, and they know that for the plan to work, they have to be very strict about sticking to the parameters. That plan. Right. And so if that plan says, you know, 92 pitches, Logan Gilbert throwing in this game, you know, it's the Marlins, let's pull them. It may not feel great as a fan to watch that happen, but the Mariners are doing what their plan says to do, and I don't think this means we'll never see a complete game shutout. Logan threw one against the Giants last year, so I think it's more just like picking the spots that you do that in. That was a closer game.

He, I don't actually remember how many pitches he had. I meant to look that up beforehand, but he may have been one or five. Okay. So he, he would have had to throw 13 pitches in the 9th inning yesterday to get to that mark, which maybe they, maybe he could have, maybe not.

But I do think they're being a little bit picky and making sure they're being more careful because they also know, as well as we know, that if the starting pitching falls apart, this team does not have a chance at doing what they have been doing to this point, which is making a run for a division title. Right. Like if, if two guys, God forbid, get hurt, like, they are in some real trouble as it perhaps pertains to winning the division title. And I think that they are very aware of that fact.

Speaker A
Yeah.

There's two things going on. Right.

There's the question about the strategic call, like, what was the best thing to do for the short and long term success of the team? And there's the.

This would have been fun. Like, this would have been cool, and those were intention. I think, you know, I, I think they were probably right that taking him out in the 9th was the right call.

It was the second time in a week that he's gone eight innings like that. Workload adds up. Those up downs start to add up.

There were a couple of long innings there where maybe.

I don't want to say he got tight but lost how loose he was and had to re loosen up. That's stuff adds up. And for every reason you said, I think, you know, I defer to the Mariners on the question of whether it was the. The right thing to do. It also sucks. Like, it would have been fun. It would have been cool. It would have been great. There was a maddox within reach. Like, that really would have been fun. You don't see it that much, and that's what's disappointing to me, but it's a purely aesthetic preference. And the, the odds that the Mariners are going to win more if the Mariners manage their pitching health right.

Is going to make up for it. Like, that's what I'm really in it for.

Zach Mason
Like, can you, can you imagine?

Speaker A
That's the really fun thing. It's when they win.

Zach Mason
Can you imagine if Gilbert had gotten hurt in that 9th inning? Like, everyone would have been calling for services job at that point? That would have been, like, maybe one of the ugliest things. And that's not to say, like, the same thing could have happened if he went out for the 8th, I guess, right? If he got hurt that 8th inning, I guess the same reaction would have happened. So, you know, to some degree, they've been doing this with Gilbert elsewhere in the season, though, Zach. We were at the game in DC when they pulled him in after six, where he was doing pretty well. So, like, I feel like maybe for reasons that we are not aware of, they are being more cautious with Gilbert this year, and maybe that's like, they've looked at his medicals and they. And there's something. Or maybe it's because, hey, we realized that last year he got gas by the end of the year. So let's, like, be really careful at managing in season innings. I mean, there could be a million reasons why they're doing that.

Speaker A
I mean, let's also not ignore the fact that he leads major League Baseball in innings pitched. Nobody in baseball has thrown more innings than Logan Gilbert has. Like, they are pushing him.

Evan James
He's also been one of the most efficient in terms of pitch count. I want to say he's 13th in terms of overall pitch count, despite the fact that he's number one in innings pitch. So he's really, like, he's been exactly what they're looking for in terms of. Of stretching somebody. I also want to point out in terms of, you know, to the hypothetical of what if he got hurt? This team is not built to sustain a serious long term injury to the starting pitching, a Tommy John injury to this starting pitching squad decimates the Mariners playoff chances, frankly, and I don't like saying that out loud because it's painful to realize, but, like, the step down from Castillo, from Kirby, from Gilbert, from whoever, to Emerson, Hancock and Diaz is not one that they are prepared to leap over with whatever they add at the trade deadline. We're like, it's already such a tenuous thing as it is. We're not built for that. And you might say, well, what if they lost Julio? Well, Julio's not playing all that well. Julio is like the fourth best player on the team right now, so they're swapping him out for, you know, Luke Rayleigh. I don't know if that's as big as a step down as going from whoever at Emerson Hancock, frankly.

Zach Mason
Well, for what it's worth, Hancock got pulled from his last start. For what it's worth.

Evan James
Yeah. There were two starters pulled early this week for injury concerns, one of them on the major league team. So, like, it's. Our success is so tenuous. I think we all understand that, but for different reasons. I think we're talking about it being tenuous because the pitching has held it together on, on a thread versus the hitting has not pulled its weight. And those are very separate discussions. But they're equal parts of this Mariners team being, even if they lose today, ten, but ten games above 500 and was still a five, six game lead in the AL west. So it's like, as much as it's not been comfortable, they're still doing a lot of things right and they're still in a good position.

Speaker A
Yeah, it just, it does bother me a little bit that this narrative is out there about this being a bad decision rather than merely a disappointing one.

Zach Mason
Well, and I.

Speaker A
And it just, it's, it's not that. Just that he leads an innings pitch this year.

Last year he was in the top 15 in innings pitched in all of baseball. The year before that, he was in the top 20 in innings pitched in all of baseball. That's three years in a row of really heavy usage, and one of the ways that he has done that is by staying off of the interest list. So I just wish we could move on from this discussion. I don't think we ever will because.

Zach Mason
It does feel silly, but I think it is emblematic of a larger discussion because this isn't the only time they've done this to him specifically and also to other pitchers. Right. Like we, we have seen them be cautious with other starters. You know, Wu is a very recent current example of a guy who, they continuously are really closely monitoring his, his pitch counts and how he feels.

I just think this is something we're going to have to deal with all season, is them making decisions that maybe, like, to your point, Zach, aesthetically don't feel great, but like, are probably the right thing to do. And, and I do agree that maybe it isn't worth a ten minute discussion that we've given it, but I think that it's on a lot of people's minds.

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Evan James
Sometimes our job is to talk about what people are worried about, whether or not we think it's valid, and sometimes we don't, frankly. But that's like, to explain why I think is definitely a part of what we do. You know what I mean?

Speaker A
Like, absolutely. I just mean, like, I wish the broader discourse could move on from this discussion. Not like the Logan question in particular. I just like starting pitching usage as a topic of conversation has just like, it's gotten really stale to me.

Evan James
I think a big part of it is because the rest of the league doesn't do it this way, necessarily. And so there's a lot of comparison with other pitchers and seeing, you know, name a pitcher, go out there and throw 130 and be like, why don't the Mariners do this?

Zach Mason
Bailey, over for the Twins, had won yesterday a complete game.

Evan James
Yeah. So people look at this and say, why don't the Mariners do it? And then they don't also understand that the, the flip side of that is, okay, how come the Mariners, you know, have some of the lowest rates for pitcher injury in the league? Well, you know, these things correlate. They're gonna, and I do want to correct myself. I said Logan Gilbert was, had thrown the 13th most pitches. He is 29th. This is a Luke Arkansas on his twitter. He entered today with the third most innings pitched, but ranks 29th in actual just thrown. So we're talking about a guy who, even though he's thrown the most innings has been really efficient, and so the Mariners have probably ridden him to a correct amount. As much as I don't ever want to say that phrase again, but let's, let's switch gears here a little bit. I want to talk about something that I think affects the roster a lot, which is the return of Jorge Polanco. Because, and this is, this is going to be where we just agree. I think Ryan Bliss has played really well since he's been here. I understand that his bad is a little bit of a one trick pony. He got thrown out on the bases today. It is what it is. But, you know, relative to Jorge Polanco's introduction to this team, I have a hard time saying that we should be sitting Ryan Bliss, but that's probably what's about to happen just based on pedigree and history. But, Zach, you're a little less impressed than I am. What's your read on all of this?

Speaker A
Well, you know, look, my history on being a the low man on Ryan Bliss is like long and tortured, and I feel like people don't want to hear it. But I saw a lot of people declaring victory yesterday based on his 53 game, 53 plate appearance sample in the big leagues that had indisputably been successful.

But what had happened is that he entered play on Thursday with a WRC plus of 47 47, and then he faced Logan Allen, Trevor Rogers and Sean Anderson, who I think you have a claim to those being the three worst starting pitchers in baseball, and he kicks the crap out of them. Not every, you know, every Mariner got to face them, and he was the one who, like, really, like, had their numbers so good on him. And all of those stats count. Everybody gets to play every bad, you know, gets to play their share of good pitchers and bad pitchers. Absolutely fair. But like, a three game hot streak against those pitchers just seemed to convince a lot of people with more certainty than I think is warranted when, you know, so far today he's over three with a strikeout and a caught stealing that's more in line with what he had been doing before, and again against some bad pitching. So I think the declarations of victory are premature.

Zach Mason
So this is what I find kind of frustrating about maybe one of the only frustrating things about being a good baseball team is like, these guys don't really get a chance.

So Ryan Bliss, in my opinion, deserves a chance to be a big leaguer somewhere. And, like, to me, this is why we really need to expand to, like 32, 34, 36 teams because he's going to be in Tacoma soon, and he's probably too good to be playing in AAA at this point. But the Mariners don't have room for him to be in the big leagues because they're going to play Jorge Polanco, which, by the way, I do think is the correct decision, regardless of how you feel about Jorge Polanco.

But I. It's been exciting to see bliss do this. I just don't really know, like, long term, where there's a fit for him either. Like, if he's a good player, like, let's. Let's imagine a world where he's a good player. Like, Cole Young's gonna be the second baseman next year and JP isn't going anywhere. And then it's like a, like, Ryan Bliss is just gonna be, like, a fun utility guy. And maybe I'm thinking, like, four steps ahead when we really are just thinking about, like, is Bliss ready now? I don't know if Bliss is ready now, but.

Speaker A
Well, look, bliss. Bliss is good enough that he should be, like, in the system and one of the options they're evaluating. Like, that's how you end up with a good major league agreeing with you, Durst. Just like, that's how you end up with good major league rosters. You have, like, both Cole Young and Ryan Bliss there and Jorge Blanco on the roster.

Zach Mason
Right?

Speaker A
And my point is not that, like, Ryan Bliss shouldn't be in the mix.

My point is, like, people are saying he's the everyday second baseman and he should be, like, starting over Jorge Polanco, which he just seems crazy when Jorge Blanco has the track record that he does 100%.

Zach Mason
And, like, if Bliss ends up doing, you know, what he's done the last four or five days, in the chances that he gets the rest of the season, they probably bring Polanco back and they give the job to bliss. But I just don't think that that's, I think that you and I are in agreement that that's probably not going to happen. I think he's been on a year.

Speaker A
And we're also in agreement that if it did, they should.

Zach Mason
Right.

And, you know, it has been because he is actually one of the players I want to see succeed the most, because he is just like, he's got so much energy and enthusiasm and it's just so great to see, you know, I, as a resident short guy, I respect another short guy, you know, game recognized game a little bit on that front.

So it is, it is fun to see him doing well. I just, yeah, I do think he's going to go down. Palanta comes up and I think that's fine. I'm actually a little bit more concerned for the Lockheed stuff because I'm way more interested in him, and I just don't think the Mariners are going to give him a chance. France is healthy and so they should send him down, too.

Speaker A
Tell sure. Again, the, the locklear call up story.

Zach Mason
Oh, yes. I was telling Zach this when I was Zach, and I watched the first game of the Marlins in person at his apartment, which was a great, great experience. Thank you for having me, Zach.

And one of the horrible experience.

Speaker A
That game was terrible.

Zach Mason
Yeah. But with good company, so it always makes it better.

Yes. The Mariners did this thing. I think they've done this a few times, but they have the call up story video where they interview the guy after the call up. And what was your first day? Like? Blah, blah, blah. And they asked Locklear for his, like, oh, you know, what was your experience getting called into the office like? And he said that the manager called him into his office and was like, how do you feel about playing the outfield today? And he's like, oh, I've never played the outfield before, so I guess I'll give it a shot. And the manager goes, well, good thing you don't have to. You're going to Seattle. And I said to Zach, I was like, you know that I'm sure that was just like, a funny prank, but I wonder how much kernel of truth there was to that, of, like, them trying out locklear in the outfield. I wonder if that was like, lie concocted out of a kernel of truth.

Yeah.

Evan James
Did it come into his mind?

Speaker A
Like, did it enter his brain to make that joke because they had talked about it?

Zach Mason
Yes. And if so, that's, like, extremely interesting.

Speaker A
You know that it's extremely interesting because the corner outfield still are the spots with the most question marks, I think, for this roster. Like that is the right handed outfielder situation is just not great.

And I don't love Luke Rayleigh against righties. I think it can work. I don't love Dominic Canzone against righties. I think it can work. But, like, I'm sorry against lefties in both cases, but you're playing with fire.

One of the things that I think about a lot with Luke Rayleigh is that the Rays essentially never let him face the lefties. And the Rays really know what they're doing in terms of maximizing players to get the most out of them.

I don't think Tyler Locklear is an outfielder, but at this point, the Mitch Hanniger discussion is a broader discussion, and it feels cruel to have it without John Troopin involved. But it's the, the Mitch Hanniger situation has gotten pretty bad, and this.

Evan James
I.

Speaker A
Don'T know what they're going to do. I mean, I really hope that they trade for Luis Robert.

I've come around to wanting that very badly, despite how much it's going to cost, because I just don't know what they're going to do out there.

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Zach Mason
In my dentist's office.

Evan James
More than once, actually.

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Evan James
Well, you preempted my question a little bit, because I was going to say, I think the, the preeminent thing facing the mariners right now, as it pertains to Polanco and to Hannaker, is how much rope do you give them at this point? Because we're coming very close to halfway through the year. I think we're at, like, what, 70 some odd games played so far. When we get to 80, 81, that's halfway through the season. You've given Mitch half a season to have an below 90 WRC, plus you've given Polanco at least a quarter of a season, a third of a season to be. However he's been.

Where do you cut bait? Because I do. I do think that if those guys don't play. That answer is this season. I don't think they're going to ride Mitch Hanniger and Jorge Polanco batting 160 into the dirt. And I might be wrong in that because they just choose to believe the pedigree and the history over whatever else is going on, but I'm of the belief that part of the reason they tried out some of these guys, Locklear and bliss, is because they're not assured that the bounce back is so certain. So what do you guys think?

I think it's a different answer for both those guys. Obviously, they're going to. We all agree they're going to play Polanco when he's healthy, which might be as soon as today. So what kind of leash do these guys have going forward?

Zach Mason
I think they're already kind of starting to cut back on Hannaker a little bit. We see. We see him batting 8th in today's game at DH. Like, I feel like they're already starting to phase him out. And the good news is, like, if Locklear gets sent down and they bring in someone via trade, like, I think Hannigar can be the guy who plays like, two games a week. And, like, I think that with his, like, clubhouse role and all that, like, I. It is like a waste of, like, money, I suppose, but, like, it's not a total travesty. I think that that's just the player that he is right now. Like, a good team would have him playing two games a week if they had better options. And so I think that's kind of what we start seeing with Hannigar Polanco. I think the team still really does believe in him. And I mean, he has three homers already in this rehab game, of this rehab stint, Tacoma. I think that he was starting to turn it around before they put him on the IL, and I remember that before they placed on the IL, I had speculated that his bat speed was down because he was hurt. And I don't know if that did end up being, you know, the reason that the bat speed was down. But it's possible that, like, part of the reason we hadn't been seeing him play to his best was because he was injured and they were just trying to let him play through it and then realize that he couldn't. So I think the Mariners give him run. I think if he's still doing poorly in like September, maybe they start to figure out something else to do with him.

But I don't necessarily think that they're going to throw him as a salary dump piece in a trade in July unless they really need the money for something. And I think that's something that people have speculated is like, oh, well, they could send Polanco to Toronto to balance out the money you get from Guerrero or whatever.

I just don't see that really happening at this point. They were so excited to get Polanco. They've been trying so hard to get this guy. I don't think they're going to give up on him after just a couple of months of bad performance.

Speaker A
Yeah, I mean, Polanco was like a 200 and 5354, hundred and 50 guy last year. He's had a WRC hovering around 120 for three years in a row. I just don't think a 40 game sample is like, especially the first 40 games with a new club, especially 40 games in April, which, like, offense is always down. I just, I think it's a much longer leash for Blanco. Hanniger already has, like, half a season under his belt, and his only value is with the bat. That's his best tool at this point. Like, his, his defense is borderline unplayable and his base running is, you know, the modern Mariners base running, let's say.

I think with Polanco, you're not immediately looking for a real, a different solution. I think with Hannaker, like, the Mariners need another outfielder, and they need it today.

Evan James
I agree, and I think that the more I look at the roster and we can talk about Victor Robles and Bizarro and whatever else, I think Mitch Hanniger is the clear cut on this roster. If you were to add from the trade market today, like, I really do, he just is. I don't like saying it because he's Mitch Hanegar, but he's sucking, man. He's dead. I don't think they're going to cut it.

Zach Mason
I think they'll just.

Evan James
What else do they do?

Zach Mason
They just, they'll just let him be, like, on the roster and he'll be, like, one of the last guys on the bench, but I don't think they're gonna cut it.

Evan James
But he's, he's the third DH at that point, and he's the one you maybe want to play the least relative to even, like, a ty locklear or tie France.

Speaker A
It depends on what they bring in, right? Like what the roster balance should be. But whether he's, like, the 13th guy on the roster who, like, doesn't play that much or gets cut feels like a bigger question around Mitchenegger than around a different kind of player just because of, like, who he is and what he means to people, what kind of message you're sending to other players in terms of his work ethic and his buying into the Mariner's way and all that.

And obviously it's a pr issue, which isn't something they can't solve, but is an issue.

When they cut Subizabala, they didn't have to have a press conference about it. They just let him go. But again, they had Subizabal on the roster for a long time, just clogging up a spot.

That to me is like, what you're doing with the 13th spot on the roster during the regular season is like, less interesting to me than who's actually getting the playing time.

Zach Mason
Yeah, and to answer your question about, like, him being the third DH, I think the reason that you have room to do it is because your DH is your backup catcher. Like, that's one spot. Like, Garver is the backup catcher and also the first slash second DH, depending on how well he's playing.

So that's one reason why they find themselves in this predicament with like, what do we do with Tyler Locklear? We don't have a spot to play him. Like, Tyler Locklear wouldn't be on the roster if Garver would then hadn't assumed the backup catcher duties because that spot would be with Sevy Zavala. So I think that's one of the reasons why they are able to do the Hannigar, like, be the clubhouse guy slash pinch hitter slash spell a guy occasionally. But I think we haven't seen them do that yet. We're talking about a hypothetical situation which they acquire a player and for all we know, like, the act of them acquiring a player will solve that problem if, like, one of the guys in the current roster goes in the other way in that deal. So I think that it's kind of early to be doing this discussion to some extent, but I do think it's worth considering and thinking about how the roster math will play out.

Evan James
Well, we didn't want to consider it. To be fair. I think most of us would have preferred Mitch Hanniger and Mitch Garver just be awesome this year and it would all be a moot conversation. But we're here because, you know, the major additions on the free agent side have not panned out, and it's like, it's eerily similar to last year in a lot of ways and also in ways that I was 100% sure would not resurface identically at least, and sort of feel that way, especially in terms of methane. German and I agree. We'll talk about that more when John is on. We'll go deeper into that. But it is, it is very disparaging that we are this deep and there are not clear signs that things are going to change. You know, he. There are some numbers under the surface. Kate's posted before about how his, you know, his numbers with the countful and went ahead in the count are so really promising in terms of believing the bat is still major league functional, but the overall results have been pretty ghastly. And I just.

Speaker A
It's been a long time since they were good. And as he's entered, you know, an age where that starts to look a lot more permanent. He's 33.

Zach Mason
You know, I will say he has to the garbage.

Speaker A
When a 33 year old been an above average hitter since he was 31, like, you start to believe that that's more real.

Evan James
Yeah.

Zach Mason
I will say to the Garver point, I saw a tweet, I think, a week ago, and now I forget who said it, but Garver, since the walk off against Atlanta, has a 115 wrc.

He's kind of been the guy that they thought they were getting since that, but they haven't been playing him like that. So I have a little bit of faith that he'll be fine ish. I don't think he's gonna be the player that they thought they were getting, but I think that he'll be a playable guy for the next, you know, year and hopefully next year, too, with the contract they signed him to.

Evan James
You mean Garver?

Zach Mason
Yes, Garver.

It is. It is. It is weird.

I think what makes it hard is they have, like, three guys who are doing this, right? So they have, and they're all the guys that are earning money. So it's hard. Like, you can't. You can't get rid of Polanco and Garver and Hanegar. Like, I think maybe you could pick one of them to unceremoniously dispel from the roster, but the other two, you're going to have to kind of figure out how to deal with them.

Speaker A
Yeah, they did the easy things with Urias and with Sivala, and now you're getting into the parts of the roster that it's. This wasn't a flyer, and you're having to, like, make real decisions. But I agree with you. I am not.

Garver hasn't been what I had hoped, but I'm not like, super worried about Garver based on what he's done since the calendar flip to may guys take some time to adjust. It's just, you know, and if he's going to catch every 5th, 6th day, that adds a ton of value. And it frees up a spot for another hitter because you don't have to use a spot for a backup catcher. So, yeah, it just. It feels weird to be at this point in the calendar and still feel so unsure about so many players that are supposed to play important roles.

Evan James
I think that's kind of the point I'm making is I don't feel unsure about Garver as much I do a little bit because obviously he's underplayed what we would have expected. But I believe both of you guys in terms of his recent performance being what we would expect. He's looked fine to me over like the last month, as you said. But with Mitch Hanniger, when I looked at his numbers last year, I really chalked that up to him being injured because he both got, he tweaked something in spring training and then he also took, I want to say, a ball off the hand during the actual season and he missed a whole bunch of time. And so his numbers around it are really ghastly. And I looked at last year and I thought, you know, he was hurt. Let's see what he looks like when he's healthy. Well, he's been healthy. He's been healthy as far as we know. He's played in the outfield and he's, he's been playing. He, he was functionally a starter for the first month and a half, six weeks of the season.

There's no excuse. You know what I mean? Like it was you chalking 87 WRC plus last year up to him struggling through injury and struggling to adjust through injury, but the same exact number this year. It's like, I don't know, man. He might just be cooked. And that really sucks because we could use him. We could use somebody hitting in that spot. And that's where the frustration for me comes from with Tyler Locklear. Like, prospect is too good to just let wither on the vine up here on the bench. Like, if you believe in him, play him over somebody. If you don't, send him to Tacoma. And I think that this weird chicken dance they've done with class A and with bliss and now with Locklear is like. Is kind of frustrating because it's not what's best for them.

And we know that, right. Like it might be what's best for the team on an individual game basis. Like calling up Tyler Locklear to play in those two or three games was probably the best thing for the team, but the rest of it hasn't been. And so, yeah, and bliss, I mean.

Speaker A
I don't think they've, like, done, done him badly at all. Right? Like, they called him up because they didn't have a second baseman because Jorge Blanco hit the, the interest list and he's played a ton since then. They haven't played him every day in particular. They've sat him against tough, tough righties. But, like, I think this has been a really good use of potential development time to have him see major league pitching for a few weeks.

Zach Mason
Yeah, that's fair. And this is just luck for Locklear and bliss, but if either of them was a lefty, I think they'd have a lot more use for the current team because bliss could platoon with more and Locklear could platoon more with France, but they both are righties and so they're kind of redundant on the current roster and so that's just like luck for them. But I would say of, of those three guys you mentioned, Locklear is the only one who is a top 100 prospect. And so I think thus he's the only guy where it's like, more frustrating. They're not finding time for him if he's ready, but he did not play very long at Tacoma, so I don't think, like, it's a bad thing to send him down there and let him play a little bit more down there. It's not one of those situations where like, if Cole young was ready or Harry Ford was ready, like, I think they would find a way to get those guys on the, in the lineup. But I think just kind of like, this is the wave. This is like the in between wave. We talked about that we, that we were waiting for the, between the Kirby and the, and the Julio and all that. And the next wave of really good prospects. You have this kind of middle wave of guys who are possibly big, regular big leaguers, but we're not really sure and they aren't going to let you know. They aren't going to make those, those guys have to force their way roster, basically.

Speaker A
Yeah.

Evan James
I don't disagree with any of that. I would agree with Zach. I think Bliss has probably gotten fair playing time, all things considered. Locklear and Class A, not so much, but.

Speaker A
Well, Locklear did when France was on the injured list.

Evan James
When he was on the injured list.

Speaker A
Yeah, kept him on the, they've kept Locklear on the roster since France got.

Evan James
Back, which, and I don't believe have played him since. Right.

Speaker A
I don't think if they have, it's been, he got a game in Cleveland or something. Yeah. Did he the day game after a night game or something.

But it's, that feels like not the best thing to be doing. Locklear I agree with that. And it's a little, it's not that puzzling because, like, what else are they going to do with that spot?

Zach Mason
And that's kind of what I'm getting to is, like, I think they need, like, you know, maybe not this exact player, but they need, like, a Harold Ramirez type of guy who like, it's fine. It's not going to ruin his development if he plays twice a week.

And I don't know who that is on the roster or in the oR.

Speaker A
You know, have Mitch Hanniger become that guy and go, Robert.

Zach Mason
Okay, hold on. Evan. I'm sorry to, like, jump ahead of the line in the, in the rundown here. Zach and I had a very interesting discussion about, like, why he's so strongly pro. Robert and I know Zach was, like, really itching to talk about it on the podcast, so I'm going to give you the platform to do this now.

Speaker A
Zach well, you know, the key thing about Robert, to me, that was, like, just a very crystallizing thought.

I could not believe my ears on the last episode, hearing Jon talk about how the Astros pitching is beyond redemption and that he's more afraid of the Rangers and he thinks the Astros are not going to catch up after today's game. The Astros will have made up four games on the Mariners since he said that. I cannot believe people are doing this again with the Astros.

If they go get crochet all of a sudden, that that team could just become dominant in a second. You know, Franber is having, like, a little bit of a down year, but not one that, like, couldn't be.

Evan James
There's nothing.

Speaker A
Like, there are no signs that he is a changed player and he will continue to be bad. Like, he could be good again tomorrow. And I just think they could come back and storm through this division again. I think they are a better team that that top three of altuve, Tucker, and Alvarez stands up to any top three in baseball.

And it's not like the bottom of their lineup is all that bad either. When you're talking about Pena and Bregman and what they managed to do with turning guys like Jake Myers into great players, and Yonr Diaz was great last year. He's like, in an adjustment year.

It just boggles my mind. Anyway, with Robert, my thought was, like, how would I react if the Astros got Robert?

And it would not be, oh, was this an overpay? Oh, they gave up so many prospects. My reaction upon learning that news would just be one word, and it's not a word that's suitable for broadcast.

And even when I got around to thinking, like, oh, what was the cost here? I would remember that Robert's under contract for a team friendly contract for three more years after this.

It's like you said Durst, about the trading freelander for Santos. You're just pressing the upgrade button. Get them to the good version of them. Right now he's under contract for so long, half of it is okay. If the Mariners get Robert, then the Astros can't. But the other half is if that's how I would feel. Learning that the team I least want to get him would get him. It is helping me to correct for the cognitive bias I have that we all have around loss aversion, that you want to hold on to the thing that you have. You value it more highly than something that you don't have of equal value.

They run these social experiments where if you give someone a coffee mug, they're only, they're willing to sell it for, like, $15. But if you ask someone how much they would pay for a coffee mug, they would, they say $10, right? Like, it's loss aversion. If you have the thing, you want to hold onto it more. And so with, like, the prospects that the mariners have, we just sort of assume that they will be the good version of themselves and that the player that you're training for will be the bad version of themselves. And, like, I think we're mostly aware that we have this cognitive bias, and we mostly, like, do our best to correct for it. But thinking about how I would react if the asteroids got hit, Robert was, like, a helpful thought experiment for me to realize, like, oh, no, we need him badly, and we need him today.

This lineup has so many holes, and he is such a big answer.

Zach Mason
If the Astros got Jock Peterson, he'd be like, okay, yeah, right.

Speaker A
Exactly.

And so if the Mariners got Jock Peterson, even if it was for what is essentially nothing like the version of Mason McCoy or whatever, I would feel like, oh, okay, that's good.

Evan James
So, Durz, I got disconnected. Team me up with this question again.

Zach Mason
It's just a matter of kind of resetting the Robert thought, because I think there's been a lot of. There's been so much discourse about Robert specifically, which is funny that we talk so much about a guy who, like, maybe won't even end up on the team anyway, but there's been so much discourse about, like, how much would you give up for him? Is he a marquee player? Is he worth giving up a premium package? And Zach was like, I would give up Ford, Emerson and, like, farmello for him. And I was like, oh, my God. And then he explained what he just explained to all you guys.

I still don't think I'm there on the, like, ford, Emerson Farmello thing of it all. Like, I still think that's a little bit too much for my personal liking. But I do understand what you're saying is, like, if the Astros had those prospects, you would, like, not be thinking, oh, well, you know, it sucks for them. They gave up all those prospects. You'd be like, dang it. Like, they have this really great player who, like, they have this really great.

Speaker A
Player, and they'll figure it out because they're always developing their prospects. But, like, the Mariners have been doing that lately, too. For, like, several years now, the Mariners have been doing a pretty good job on the player development front, and that's, like, why you get a good farm system. If they're going to be a draft developed trade kind of team, you have to be willing to, like, eat the, you know, bite the bullet on that. Obviously, we would all prefer that they just spend the money in free agency, but, like, taking as an assumption that they are not going to do that, because they're not, this is what they have to do to get better. And it just, you know, I think about the Castillo deal, and that was, you know, Noelle V was viewed pretty similarly at the time to the way that Colt Emerson is viewed today. Right. He was, like, pretty widely regarded as a top 20 guy. He had been in the top ten lists in some places.

Evan James
Cole Young is probably the more apt comparison because they were both in double A, but, yeah, you're not wrong in.

Speaker A
Terms of, you know, how they were considered among prospects. Like, yeah, he was closer, but I agree with you on that point. But he hadn't been in Double A for that long. And Farmello is a guy who was drafted essentially late first round, and Edwin Arroyo was drafted in the comp round, and they'd been having quickly, yeah, these skyrocketing first seasons, and maybe the value was as high as it was ever going to be, and it turned out to be true for Royal, and they had, like, barged their way, burst through the doors onto top 100 lists.

That's kind of what that trade was like for just a season and a half of Luis Castillo.

And Robert's a more valuable player than Castillo with three more years or two more years of club control left. I just think that's sort of where you have to start thinking about it.

And I just. When that trade happened, I was super excited about it. It has worked out extremely well.

I think pushing in your chips for, like, an elite level player is not something the Mariners have done other than Castillo in a decade, and I think it's worth doing. It changes the complexion of the entire team. When you.

Evan James
Just to clarify, for my own edification, the jury proposal that you suggested was Harry Ford, Emerson Hancock, and John Emerson. Okay. I don't know about that.

Speaker A
And that's not, like, an actual proposal. It's just, you know, as a.

Evan James
As a framework. Yeah.

Speaker A
As a framework to thinking through, like, the kind of value that I would be comfortable giving up, because I think it's the kind of value you have to give up.

Zach Mason
And I agree with you, by the way, on, like, I don't know if that. I think it's a little bit too much for me, but, like, let's envision a world where that happens. Like, they still have Lazaro Montezuma, felnine, Celestin Cole Young, Tyler Locklear, Logan Evans. Like, they still have a ton of top 100 guys. Like, they are still cooking. Even if they give up that what we all think is, like, an absurd package for a potentially star level player, they're going to be fine.

Evan James
Correct. I have two thoughts. One, and I said this on the last podcast, his name is Luis Robert. We say Robert because the faux phrase pronunciation is funny and it kind of an inside joke. But we know that his name is Luis Robert. Everybody calm down.

Zach Mason
I thought it was Robert.

Evan James
Robert.

Nope. We've. We've been saying it on this podcast, and I'm pretty sure it's my fault. I think I said it first, and then Grant repeated it, and now it's just been repeated. His name is Louise Robert, not Roberts with an S. Louise Robert. But we say Robert is funny.

It just is. It's. It's not a complicated thing.

Zach Mason
I mean, it just seems like the right way to say it.

Evan James
It does. It totally does. It seems like the right way to say it. I don't know how. How it's not. But his name is Luis Roberts. Anyway, I think that Zach's proposal is the correct framework. And I have said this to a lot of people who have given the same framework. I just disagree with the exact prospects. I think that they will try and do.

I think that they will try and keep Colt Emerson and Philnine, Celestine and Lazaro Montez with their last dying breath and they will give up virtually anybody else on the farm. And that's kind of my read. And when you hear Shannon talk about it in Riz and some other people who have speculated a little bit who they might trade, you get a little bit of that sense of like they're clutching some of the pearls. But the advantage to having like seven to nine to twelve guys who are all theoretically major leaguers when you, especially when you include, like, you know, Arroyo and, you know, Michael Morales and whoever, like there are interesting guys here that don't require you to trade all three of your top level guys. And this is where I don't think they make a good trade partner with Chicago because I think Chicago is going to look at Crochet and Roberts and say we are rebuilding our entire franchise on the back of these two trades and they're not going to give it to the Mariners without the specific above and beyond trade demands that they think they're going to get.

Zach Mason
Well, and they also don't need to trade him this summer. They could trade in the winter and his trade value will not be meaningfully less speaker.

Evan James
One, and I should point out that this was brought up, they had a Chicago White Sox host on with the Mariners when they, they played that last series. And he said that himself. He said, well, they just want trade him. Like, you know, if they don't, they don't get the package that they want specifically. They just won't do it. And that was kind of where I am at, which is that I don't think the Mariners are going to give it to them. I don't think they're going to want it when we give it to them. And I think they're just not going to do it. So for me, this is like a non starter, but I do, I understand the perspective that he's the guy. Right. When you look at this particular trade market, it's like him and who else? Basically no one. So.

Zach Mason
Well, there's a lot of question marks because there's a lot of bubble teams with interesting players. So the Rays have interesting players, the Blue Jays, the Cardinals. There's a lot of things in the bubble. Yes.

And so it's just really a lot of unknowns and that's partially because the national League, literally all but two teams are still in the mix for a playoff spot, and hopefully that will crystallize within the next month. But until then, we don't know who the players are. And I assume that Jerry's probably calling everyone, and they're all just like, let's see how we play the next two weeks, and we'll call you back. But I'm sure he's called no fewer than, like, 20 teams in the league right now.

Speaker A
It just, it kills me because every game counts, and, like, they continue to have this giant, they're playing every game with a big hole on the roster. That could be sure and, like, it. Sure, you have to, like, pay more to make it happen. It's just I'm itchy about it.

Zach Mason
Yeah. And I think that that's probably why they haven't done it yet is because, you know, the, the White Sox are waiting to find out what other teams are willing to pay, so they're, they don't want to jump the market if they think they're going to get a better deal soon. And, you know, I think everyone's kind of playing a waiting game on all those bubble teams, and it's, it's slowing down everything. And that's why depot hasn't been able to do anything yet. So I don't think he's just, like, sitting there. Like, I think he knows as well as all of us do that there's a hole in this roster that needs to be filled, but I just don't think Martin's ready to do that yet.

Speaker A
Yeah, I don't think that's new information. I'm just, like, not comfortable with the lead the way that it is. Like, the Astros have played a lot of this season. Like, they're just, like, trying not to make the playoffs, but, like, that could turn on a dime.

Evan James
I should point out, too, it's still early, right. It's June 23, and the reality is the trade deadline is more than is five weeks from now. So, like, yeah, we're all antsy because we're watching the team struggle with this. Like you said, every game counts, every single night. They're struggling with being barely down right now. The bases are loaded with two outs in the night, and they're down.

Zach Mason
You haven't seen the end yet. Evan, I have some bad news for.

Speaker A
No.

Zach Mason
Your broadcast is behind.

Evan James
I know my broadcast is behind. This is the disadvantage of watching the Reddit streams. But, uh. Yeah. So the Mariners, I assume, lost. I assume I will find out shortly. But, uh, yeah, no, we're seeing this problem metastasize more and more every day, and we. We understand empirically, like, for the first month, six weeks, it was like, maybe they'll hit better, right? Like, maybe some of these guys who look super cooked are just struggling to adapt to a new team. They're going to figure it out. Polanco is going to hit better. Mitch Hannah goes going to hit better. We've gotten some of that, you know, like, Mitch Garver has hit better, and some, you know, some of the rookies have hit better. Dominican zone. Had a good day yesterday against admittedly sketchy pitching, as Zach has pointed out.

But, you know, like, there's still no answer for this. We are. We're deep in the season to have no conclusive answer to this, to this offensive problem. Anything, guys? I feel like. I feel like that's it for today. Do we have anything else?

Zach Mason
No. Yeah, that's.

Speaker A
No. I think it's a bit of a downer, but, you know, the Mariners lost four games of their lead in the last. Like, not a great situation.

Zach Mason
Okay, I'll end on a high note here, which is something Zach told me. I mean, at the time, the Mariners fell down to only seven games ahead. But he's like, if the Mariners were on, like, an absolute heater and, like, they were pulling into. They just pulled, you know, five games ahead of Houston and Texas. We'd be, like, doing somersaults, even if you don't count momentum in the equation. If you had told me they'd be up five games in the division on June 23, I would have been psyched. So absolutely. It's all perspective, and it's all the ebb and flow of the season. We watched them drop two or three to, like, a very bad Miami team. They dropped two of three to, like, a pretty bad nationals team. Like, they've done this before, and it sucks, but, like, I'm not. I don't think this is, like, it's very hard to talk about this. You know, we come on here, we talk about this team at least once a week, and it's just, like, a very weird exercise to do when you're just, like, in the middle of the waves, because inevitably, you know, we come on here, and 60% of the time, we're, like, really happy, and 40% of the time, we're like, man, this sucks. And that's just, like, how it goes.

Speaker A
Don't throw percentages out. You're just. You're baiting people.

Zach Mason
Sorry. 54% of the time.

Evan James
No, you're right. It's tough, too, to constantly be shuffling between the expectations of hoping they do better, praying they don't do worse, and then seeing them be the same and having to explain it. Right? Like, that's pretty much where we've been all year, and sometimes it's been better than others, but the it has been. Here's what I would say. They're not getting worse. I don't believe that, fundamentally, and I think I've seen some tweets this week which have been the mayor's offense is unsustainable. I would say to you this based on what? It's been entirely sustainable thus far. They suck. Like, what else do you think they're going to be worse than like 25th, 23rd, 21st ranked offense? I don't know if they have it in them to be worse. I think they're going to be this. It's a matter of can they hold this? And so far so good.

But if you need to get your offensive game up, I'm going to recommend McDougal bats use the code. Go Ems at checkout for 20% off. If you need to get that offense up, let me tell you, there's nothing that'll turn those singles into doubles, doubles into home runs more than a McDougal bat. Use that good wood again. That's go ems to check out 20% off. We'll be back later next week with Kate and John and again with Anderson Zam. Until next time, I'm Evan James. Go Mariners, and we'll see you next time.

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