Ex-con man Frank Abagnale on AI scams

Primary Topic

This episode dives deep into the increasing risks and methodologies of AI-driven scams, featuring insights from former con man turned security consultant, Frank Abagnale.

Episode Summary

In this revealing episode of the Kim Komando Show, guest Frank Abagnale discusses the evolution and dangers of AI scams. Abagnale, famous for his past as a con artist and subsequent security consultancy, details how technological advancements have simplified fraudulent activities that were once complex and labor-intensive. He explains that the tools and information available today would have made his infamous exploits exponentially easier, emphasizing that modern scammers can now create and execute scams with startling accuracy and speed. The discussion pivots to preventative measures, underscoring the necessity of verification, education, and a cautious approach to sharing personal information. Abagnale's firsthand account provides a unique perspective on the digital threats posed by AI and the critical importance of public awareness in combating these evolving risks.

Main Takeaways

  1. AI has significantly lowered the barrier for committing fraud, making scams easier and more sophisticated.
  2. Verification is crucial: always confirm who is on the other end of any transaction or communication.
  3. Education about scams is essential for public protection—understanding the mechanics of scams helps people avoid them.
  4. Scammers exploit both new technology and human psychology to deceive their targets.
  5. Personal stories and insights from a former con artist can effectively illustrate and educate on the nuances of digital fraud.

Episode Chapters

1: Introduction

Kim Komando introduces the topic and guest, setting the stage for a discussion on AI and scams. The episode starts with a light banter and a PSA, easing listeners into the serious topic ahead.

  • Frank Abagnale: "No, as a matter of fact, you know, the things that I did 50 years ago as a teenager today are 4000 times easier."

2: The Evolution of Scams

Abagnale describes how AI has changed the landscape of fraud, noting that tools and data available today make scams easier to execute than during his time as a con artist.

  • Frank Abagnale: "Technology has made many of the things I did so much easier to do today."

3: Combating AI Scams

The focus shifts to strategies for combating AI-driven scams, emphasizing prevention, verification, and education as key tactics.

  • Frank Abagnale: "Prevention, verification, and education are the most powerful tools to fight crime."

Actionable Advice

  1. Verify Always: Before proceeding with any transaction, verify the identity of the other party.
  2. Educate Yourself and Others: Stay informed about the latest scams and educate your community.
  3. Guard Personal Information: Be cautious about how much personal information you share online.
  4. Use Secure Channels: Conduct transactions over secure, verifiable channels only.
  5. Report Suspicious Activities: If you encounter a scam, report it to the authorities to help prevent further incidents.

About This Episode

He's one of the most famous imposters ever. Now, he says, artificial intelligence is going to bring on a whole new wave of scams. Plus, a dangerous selfie fail, social media sperm donors, and robberies on Facebook Marketplace.

People

Frank Abagnale, Kim Komando

Companies

None

Books

None

Guest Name(s):

Frank Abagnale

Content Warnings:

None

Transcript

Speaker A
You're a podcast listener, and this is a podcast ad. Reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from lips and ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements, or run a reproduced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience with lips and ads, go to lipsandads.com. Now, that's Libsyn ads.com.

Kim Commando
Hey, it's Kim Commando today, your daily podcast to keep you up to date with all things digital and beyond. And I'd love to have have you be a part of our podcast. You can make an appointment to speak with me. Just head over to commando.com. And on the top right there's a button that says email. Kim. Fill that out, and that's it. I thought we'd kick things off today with a PSA, a public service announcement. Yes. Are you ready for it?

Speaker C
Mm hmm.

Kim Commando
High voltage power lines are dangerous.

Speaker C
I should write this down.

Kim Commando
Yes, that's right. In Portland, Oregon, someone climbed up a high voltage power line to take a selfie, got electrocuted, and fell 40ft.

Speaker C
What a dope.

Kim Commando
I got a good idea. How about if I climb the power tire?

Speaker C
I may get 14 or 15 likes out of this photo.

Kim Commando
This is really something. The transformer blew, and then, as he said, somebody said that they saw a person plunge 40ft after getting shot.

Speaker C
Are they okay?

Kim Commando
As luck would have it, this guy should pay the lottery. An off duty paramedic was standing there when he fell, and he was conscious and breathing immediately after the fall.

Speaker C
Okay.

Kim Commando
Rescuers say that the power line at the top of the tower had 57,000 volts of electricity, and he survived.

Speaker C
That is shocking.

Kim Commando
Oh, you have to think about the person.

Speaker C
Yeah.

Kim Commando
I mean, who's going to do this? Like I said, climb the tower. You know, get up there and then, like. And then fall. Get electrocuted.

Speaker C
I mean. Okay.

Kim Commando
I mean, definitely this person is not grounded.

Speaker C
No, they are not.

Kim Commando
Ooh. On that happy note, welcome. It's Kim Commando. Today it's your fun podcast about all things digital. And this is not the Kim commando show. So many people time and time again ask me, what is the difference?

Speaker C
What is it?

Kim Commando
The difference is, is that you're here. Cause you're not on the, you know, the show. No, that's on 500 odd stations.

Speaker C
No, I'm on the podcast. You're on Kim Commander Today podcast.

Kim Commando
And also the other one is on, like I said, all those radio stations, and it's really more caller driven. We don't take calls here, so if you want to listen to calls. You want to be a caller, you got to go on the Kim commando show and you can find your local affiliate over@commando.com or you can go to Apple Spotify or Apple Spotify. That's like they're merging. I don't know if you heard that.

Speaker C
Give them a couple of years, it'll.

Kim Commando
Be Apple podcasts and Spotify. So I was expecting you to come in, Andrew, with a neck brace today.

Speaker C
No, I mean, I'm sore. My shoulders really hurt. But I missed the show on Friday because someone decided at freeway speeds to drive, try and attempt to drive through my vehicle on the freeway. What happened was I was trying to get on the 51. This is like a little inner little highway in the middle of our town to get here, right? And when the ten meets the 51, it's always convoluted.

Kim Commando
It's a mess.

Speaker C
It is.

Kim Commando
It's a total mess.

Speaker C
And so I'm always very aware when I'm there and I see a car four car lengths ahead jump over. Cause they're like, oh, there's my exit. I better just go. And so I. Everybody slams on their brakes, I slam on my brake. I had about 15ft of space in front of me and then like 5 seconds later, boom. This car just plows in the back of me. Some teenagers. So I'm expecting. They were probably on their phone and not paying attention. But yeah, my car is. They toted away. The whole back fell off once they put it on the tow truck.

Kim Commando
Did it really? The whole back?

Speaker C
Just.

Kim Commando
So now, is the car totaled?

Speaker C
I don't know. They have to do the insurance adjusters and the insurance won't do anything. Well, we're not. We don't know if we're at fault yet. You don't know if you're at fault?

Kim Commando
Okay. I got hit in the back.

Speaker C
I was parked on the freeway and someone plowed into me. It was my fault.

Kim Commando
What kind of car did the other person have?

Speaker C
Some kind of Ford. It was weird because they wouldn't get off the freeway. They wouldn't get over. They just sat there in the middle of the freeway.

Kim Commando
Oh, so you had all the traffic and everybody staring at you like, you dumb idiots.

Speaker C
I disconnected and when I pulled away. Cause I was like, I don't know if this is even drivable. You could hear the two cars becoming unmangled. It was just. And I got over. I got over so I'd be a, I was safe and b, I wasn't blocking any traffic. And he just sat there and then the cops show up, and the cops close off traffic, and they get in his car, and they drive his car to the side. So I don't know if he was scared or what.

Kim Commando
Sounds like he was scared, probably.

Speaker C
But they got him over. And then another thing was kind of funny is that he was about 200 yards behind me. So I'm sitting here in the other car that hit me is sitting here, and the police officer has his suv in between. And I know it's for safety reasons, but it was so funny. Cause he would get in his car and drive up to me and get out and talk to me, and then he would get in his car and back up to the other guy.

Kim Commando
Cause so many cops have gotten hit.

Speaker C
Oh, yeah, I know. It's for safety, right. But, yeah, then they towed my car away, and now I'm driving a station vehicle. I work for iHeartRadio, and they were kind enough to give me a station vehicle.

Kim Commando
That's your whip?

Speaker C
Yeah. And you know what? When you're driving a wrapped vehicle, especially one that has huge logos and clouds all over. Oh, they're just staring at you the whole way.

Kim Commando
Okay. Is your. Now, is your face on the side of the vehicle?

Speaker C
No. The name of our show, Beth and friends, is. And then big logo, KEz 99.9. But, yeah, I'm driving around vehicle right now.

Kim Commando
You know, there was. For a long time, there was a. There was a big billboard of me on KABC on the 405 freeway.

Speaker C
Right?

Kim Commando
And then I think I'm still wrapped on a few vans throughout the country.

Speaker C
So you'd be driving in from the airport, and we would driver pick you up, and the guy, hey, is that you?

Kim Commando
I would actually point it out. Isn't that a great billboard? Oh, my gosh. Of course. Then he'd like.

Speaker C
Wait, you couldn't stand them not noticing it?

Kim Commando
No, of course not. You know how long I've worked to have my face on a billboard?

Speaker C
I would probably do it, too.

Kim Commando
You would? All right, so what do you got coming up today?

Speaker C
We have some AI issues. I owe you an apology, first of all.

Kim Commando
Why?

Speaker C
You want to save it? For the sake?

Kim Commando
Yes, save it.

Speaker C
Okay. I owe you an apology. And then a lot of people are upset with AI taking their voices away.

Kim Commando
Well, I'm glad that you lived from the car accident so you could apologize to me.

Speaker C
Priorities. I'm gonna die right after this show. Right after I give you the apology.

Kim Commando
No, I'm glad you're okay. Yeah, I was worried about you.

Speaker C
I mean, I'm still worried that's it?

Kim Commando
Cause that's so unusual for you not to come to a show.

Speaker C
I mean, it's like, yeah, I don't miss work. I never do. At iHeart, I have, like, literally 600 sick hours saved up.

Kim Commando
Hey, if you haven't already, make sure that you enter to win the brand new iPhone 15. That's winfromkim.com dot. Once again, win from kim.com. All right, here are the top five things you need to know about tech. It's happening right now. Number one, shocker.

Speaker C
What?

Kim Commando
Another data breach?

Speaker C
No.

Kim Commando
Yes.

Speaker C
I thought these were so rare.

Kim Commando
Medical data breach.

Speaker C
Another medical.

Kim Commando
2.4 million people. But wait, this one happened in 2023. We just found out about it this morning.

Speaker C
Well, I haven't done anything medical since 2023. I'm sure no one else has, so we probably didn't even notice.

Kim Commando
No, not at all.

Speaker C
Are they targeting these medical? This is the third one that we found out about.

Kim Commando
Well, the other ones happened this year. This one actually happened between April 18 and April 23 of 2023, but we're just now hearing about it.

Speaker C
What took them so long?

Kim Commando
I think they were trying to figure out, do we really need to tell people about this? You know, how long can we keep these? Now, this is the most interesting part, okay. Your name, contact information, date of birth, date of death, Social Security number, and insurance information was all in this data breach from Texas based web TPA.

Speaker C
Okay.

Kim Commando
And they provide administrative services to health benefit plans and insurance companies. Okay, so that's what. Remember what they had, right? Name, contact information, date of birth, date of death, Social Security number, and insurance information.

Speaker C
Can I make a prediction? Can I say the company said, don't worry, because really no personal data got out?

Kim Commando
Exactly.

Speaker C
Yeah. I win.

Kim Commando
Company president Lisa Tranberg. She says that the potential damages appear to be limited for them. Okay. This is her exact quote. We're not aware of any misuse of your information as a result of this incident.

Speaker C
Oh, it is an incident.

Kim Commando
It's an incident.

Speaker C
This is not even close to being a debacle. It's just an incident.

Kim Commando
Okay. Here's what else Lisa says. Okay. You know, Lisa is really good at corporate speak. If we ever need anybody, I'm calling Lisa. Okay? Okay. Your financial information, such as your financial account information, credit card numbers, and treatment and diagnostic information, were not impacted at all. No, you're fine.

Speaker C
Don't worry about it. You said Social Security numbers. This twit goes out there and says that whenever they have 2.3 million Social.

Kim Commando
Security numbers, don't worry about it. They didn't get your credit card number.

Speaker C
Holy buckets. Watch the documentary on Netflix about the hack of Ashley Madison.

Kim Commando
No.

Speaker C
You should watch it. It's pretty good. It's pretty. It's pretty interesting how companies go into crisis mode and they are all about self preservation and they do not care about the customer.

Kim Commando
Well, Ashley Madison, you have to explain what Ashley Madison is.

Speaker C
It's a website where married people can go and they can hook up. Correct. And they were basically. They walked into work one day and their entire computer system was hijacked. And the hackers basically said, close the website down. You have 30 days, or I will release everything. All the identities, the true, real identities. Yes. But they were so worried about, we got to save this company because they were best about to have an IPO, and they're like, we have to save this company.

Kim Commando
Tell me. I want to watch it. Sorry, what's it called?

Speaker C
Ashley Madison. Sex, lies, and scandal.

Kim Commando
Okay. Because don't be the spoiler. Hate when that happens.

Speaker C
I mean, it did happen, like, seven years ago. That's like you going, oh, my God, don't tell me if the Titanic sinks or not. I mean, it was out there.

Kim Commando
It was in the news. I would tell you when we went to the movies and saw the Apollo movie, right? And so it's like. It's like, you know, it's the crescendo of the movie. And they're like, you know, wondering, what's gonna happen to this Apollo mission? And I actually said to him, do they make it back?

Speaker C
Were you serious?

Kim Commando
I was.

Speaker C
You didn't know the ending.

Kim Commando
And everybody around was like, oh, my.

Speaker C
Gosh, I watched this thriller about the Civil War. I can't wait to see how it ends.

Kim Commando
But Ashley Madison, there's a funny story attached to that, too. So we had some folks from a company who said, like, they could personalize emails, which would be good, you know, for all of our half a million people, to get the newsletters. And then we could actually pick content from the website that they'd be interested in.

Speaker C
Okay.

Kim Commando
So they use. So they said, kim, can we look at your browsing history in order to do that? Okay. So now in this whole conference room is like, you know, a couple of really team members, vice president Barry, me, and they're given the whole presentation about how they can do this because it was super expensive.

Speaker C
Okay.

Kim Commando
And so they pull up my browsing history, and on there was Ashley Madison.

Speaker C
Really?

Kim Commando
And so everybody's looking at me, like, going. And Barry doesn't know what Ashley Madison is. He thinks it's like a cookie cup, you know, and so. And so everybody's, like, looking at me. I'm like. And it was. Honestly, I was just research. It was just research. Just research.

Speaker C
We all believe you.

Kim Commando
It was just research. Facebook. Marketplace robberies are on the increase. Coming in at number two. They bait you with cars and sneakers, and then they jump you when you show up to sell it. Yay. Okay, so always bring a buddy. Maybe do the transaction at a police station.

Speaker C
I'm going through the. I'm trying to sell a. I had a very expensive stroller in my garage. This is, like a $480 stroller. My kids are old. I don't need it. And on Mother's day, I was like, you know what? I'm going to put it up on Facebook for $20.

Kim Commando
See what happens.

Speaker C
Give a mother a great mother's day gift. Or if someone could buy it for a new mother or something like that.

Kim Commando
Yes.

Speaker C
I have had 1900 requests to buy it, and I still haven't sold it.

Kim Commando
Why? Because they're just scammies.

Speaker C
I don't know. It's like, I'm interested.

Kim Commando
Just donate it to a women's shelter.

Speaker C
I should. Yeah. It's such a headache. 1900 people have clicked on it for $20.

Kim Commando
Just donate it. Yeah, that's what I did. We were actually at the state fair once, and Ian was probably about three, and I saw this, like, 16 year old mother with, like, two kids and, you know, like, you know, the baby daddy standing there, I'm like, here, take my stroller. I'm like, you can't have it.

Speaker C
He doesn't need anymore.

Kim Commando
He doesn't need anymore.

Speaker C
We're teaching him how to drive next weekend.

Kim Commando
Exactly. Don't buy a new iPhone, okay? Because we're giving one away. Aside from that, is that Apple is now offering higher trading credit for old iPhones until June 3. Okay. The deals for in store purchases towards any iPhone 15.

Speaker C
You just told me not to buy one. But I'm getting better in store credit. Why wouldn't I buy it if I'm getting more credit?

Kim Commando
They're just trying to wipe out the inventory. That's all they're trying to do. Because iOS 15 is coming out at the WWDC in June, right. I always doesn't feel like it. Doesn't it? Like the WWE, the WWDC. You see, like, Tim Cook sitting there, like, wrestling somebody, he's gonna come out.

Speaker C
Hey, brother. We got AI in our new technology of the phones, brother.

Kim Commando
They're talking about maybe not calling it the iPhone anymore?

Speaker C
The AI phone. Gosh, yeah.

Kim Commando
The AiPhone 16. Coming in September. September. It's a good thing that you have me around to tell you all this stuff. I appreciate that you want to say please and thank you coming in at number four. When you are using chatbots, research actually says this past week that if you're rude, the AI responds like a rude human being.

Speaker C
Really?

Kim Commando
Yes.

Speaker C
Hear the crap you wanted, stupid.

Kim Commando
I want to try it just for once to see what happens.

Speaker C
Hey, jerk, write me a script for this computer product, you know?

Kim Commando
So right before here, we have some clients coming in on July 31.

Speaker C
Okay.

Kim Commando
Okay. And so, Tracy and I were talking, and I said, you know, oh, we should have, like, over the house for, like, a cocktail at sunset so they could see the whole city, because they're from Europe. And so. So I say this to, like, you know, when is the sunset? She's like, I'm unable to. So I go over Chachi Pt, it's like, oh, it's gonna be estimates. 07:30 p.m. And that's real time. Yes.

Speaker C
Nice.

Kim Commando
All right. And finally, this. Not that you need it, but let's say you and Jennifer decide that you want to have kids, right? But Jennifer doesn't have you. So Jennifer decides that she wants to have more kids. So she's going to go onto Facebook.

Speaker C
To find children to find sperm. That's a bad idea.

Kim Commando
Okay. So there are now Facebook groups dedicated for sperm donors. So you could just go onto these Facebook groups, and these guys are all on there saying, like, you know, for $20, $100 free, whatever it might be, is that you can get a bunch of my little swimmies, and they just.

Speaker C
Send you a bucket of the stuff and you're good to go.

Kim Commando
Yes. But here's what's happening. I thought this was interesting. States that don't have clear laws, even though if the mom and the donor has a contract.

Speaker C
Mm hmm.

Kim Commando
Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio. Listen to this. And other states is that if it's not clear in that you donate your sperm, she gets pregnant.

Speaker C
I'm the dad.

Kim Commando
Financially responsible, 100% child support.

Speaker C
Gosh, what a scam.

Kim Commando
Yes. Child support. So, you know, so, like, three years, five years, twelve years from now.

Speaker C
Right.

Kim Commando
She could say, hey, listen, my money.

Speaker C
Right? Your kid. Why don't you ever take care of your kid?

Kim Commando
And so I actually went on one of the groups because I was interested. Not me.

Speaker C
Right after you went on Ashley Madison.

Kim Commando
No. You know, it's. You know, I have to know about this stuff, it's one thing. Reading about. It's nothing. You're actually, like, looking at it, right. And sometimes it's really weird because, like, you know, on Ashley Madison, I actually knew somebody who was, like, there with a profile. So the question is, like, do you tell his wife or you just.

Speaker C
No, none your business.

Kim Commando
I didn't. But I did. I did set up a fake profile, and I did say to him, I know you work at KTar.

Speaker C
What was your fake profile name? Like Abigail Bordegarde or something like that. So what was happening on the Facebook groups?

Kim Commando
Well, they have all these ads up, and it's kind of weird. It's like. Like guys, like, you're talking about how, you know, how they're. How they've had, like, three kids, or they have no kids, and they're trying to populate the world and they're trying to do the world, and. And, you know, how they ship it, uh, it, you know, stuff like that. Like, you know, tall, instead of doing all this for $20, intelligent. And then people leave comments like, I saw this one. Wait till you get a load of this guy.

Frank Abagnale
That's really good.

Speaker C
Wait till you get a load of me.

Speaker A
You're a podcast listener, and this is a podcast ad. Reach great listeners like yourself with podcast advertising from lips and ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering host endorsements, or run a reproduced ad like this one across thousands of shows. To reach your target audience with lips and ads, go to lipsandads.com. Now, that's Libsyn ads.com.

Kim Commando
Hey, it's Kim Commando. Today, it's your fun podcast about all things digital. And just a quick reminder, make sure that you enter to win a brand new iPhone 15 over@winfromkim.com. Dot. Once again, that's winfromchim.com. And there is a catch. There's always a catch. Always the catch. I mean, somebody's just not going to hand you a free iPhone 15 worth $799.

Speaker C
Yeah, but the catch is so simple and easy.

Kim Commando
Yes. You just get one issue, or actually, a few issues of my free news. We used to say one, and then we had, like, 10,000 bots that went through in, like, two minutes.

Speaker C
You got to fight the Internet. It's a non stop fight against the Internet.

Kim Commando
All right, so one of the really wonderful things that Maddie does for us is she can. She can book the greatest guests. She really. She has such a talent for this. And so she came into my office and she said, I think I got Frank come on, show. I'm like Frank.

Frank Abagnale
Frank.

Kim Commando
Who said Sinatra? Frank. No, he's dead. Frank Abagnale.

Speaker C
And catch me if we can.

Kim Commando
I know. And I was like, love that movie. Oh, so good. And you know what? And his life is so fascinating. I mean, of course, Leonardo DiCaprio portrayed him and during the sixties and seventies, Frank says he masqueraded a Pan am pilot to get free flights. That was amazing. Really. Was a doctor in Georgia for a.

Speaker C
Year when he was like a teenager walking around pretending to be a doctor.

Kim Commando
Yes. And then a lawyer in Baton Rouge.

Speaker C
And all this was just cash, fake checks.

Kim Commando
A professor at Brigham Young University.

Speaker C
He looks Mormon.

Kim Commando
You think?

Speaker C
Leonardo Dicaprio? Sure.

Kim Commando
I mean, you know, a lot of people think I'm Mormon.

Speaker C
Do they?

Kim Commando
Yes.

Frank Abagnale
Okay.

Kim Commando
I'm so wholesome.

Speaker C
Okay, then they talk to you.

Kim Commando
A few. Frank's cashed over two and a half million dollars in fraudulent checks while he was still a teenager and then the FBI was trying. I think he got caught. But he's been on the right side of the law for so many years and he's been working as a security consultant. Do you know, I watched one of his videos on YouTube. He had just a few more views than we have.

Speaker C
What do you have? Like 30,000, 35,000?

Kim Commando
Go higher.

Speaker C
3 million?

Kim Commando
15 million.

Speaker C
That's a lot.

Kim Commando
Yeah, 15 million views. So joining us now is Frank Abagnale and we're going to talk about AI scams. Hi there, Frank. Hi.

Frank Abagnale
Nice to be with you.

Kim Commando
Thank you. So did you ever foresee AI being used in scams?

Frank Abagnale
No, as a matter of fact, you know, the things that I did 50 years ago as a teenager today are 4000 times easier when I did it 50 years ago. So I am surprised every day that if you had told me that 50 years ago I would have said that's impossible. But technology has made many of the things I did so much easier to do today.

Kim Commando
Is that right? Because I would think that it would be easier years ago because we didn't have all the checks and balances in computer databases.

Speaker C
Right. And back then they wouldn't have all the technology that we have today. To catch you.

Frank Abagnale
Well, for a quick example is when I printed checks years ago, you saw in the movie that took a million dollar printing press and there were color separations and negatives and plates and typesetting and a lot of time and skill today. You just open your laptop, you put a design of a very sophisticated checkup on your screen. You go to some corporate website, you capture their logo. You put it on the check and then you basically design this perfect check online in about 15 minutes. But 50 years ago you would have said to me, so Frank, how do you know Pan am's bank account? I don't know, I'm just using a bunch of numbers. Well how do you know where they bank? I don't know that. Just make up a bank's name. Well finally, how do you know who the authorized signer of Pan am checks are? I have no idea. So I just put Jack Smith. But today we live in a too much information world. So if I just called the company and I asked to speak to someone in accounts receivables and tell them I like to pay an invoice and would like to wire them the funds, they tell me where they bank, their account number, their routing number, and if I call back and ask to speak to someone in corporate communications and ask for a copy of their annual report, they'll send it to me. But on page three is the signature of the chairman of the board, the CEO, the CFO, the treasurer, the controller. White glossy paper, black ink, camera ready art. So today takes 15 minutes. What used to take hours and hours years ago. And I would say this is the same when it comes to social engineering. When I did it at 16, of course I didn't know I was social engineering anybody, but I basically called Pan am, said that I was a pilot and I was on layover in New York and I had sent my uniform out to be dry clean and now the cleaner in the hotel couldn't find it and I needed to get a uniform. I had a flight in six or 7 hours. He told me immediately where to go, what to sign, what forms I needed, who to see. But back in those days there was only one form of communication and that was a telephone. Today, of course, there's emails, text messages, the Internet. So social engineering has become a lot easier even today.

Kim Commando
You know what, that's an interesting angle on that, Frank, because I really would have thought it would have been so much easier in the past because we didn't have all the checks and balances. The thing that really concerns me is when we start talking about AI are all the deep fakes and how a scammer can. I'm sure you heard the story, it happened in Europe where some CFO got a phone call from somebody who said, hi, I'm the CEO, I need you to transfer $250,000, a million dollars. And it actually sounded like his boss. And it's not like you're going to say to your boss, okay, are you sure you want to do that?

Frank Abagnale
As you know, about two months ago, CNN reported that in Hong Kong there was a multinational company. And supposedly they got an email from the CEO to the accounting department. He was located at different headquarters. He said, I need to have a meeting in the boardroom at 01:00 so the accounting staff went down there. The big screen came on. There was the CEO and the CFO. They spent about 30 minutes explaining that they were getting ready to buy a new company and they needed to set aside $25 million and told them to move that money to this account. They did, only to find out that was all AI. But it was their picture, their voice. I mean, it looked very real to them.

Kim Commando
So how do you, how do you make sure that you're not taken? I mean, like, I've, I've heard you say several times, I think it's so smart is that you have to think like a criminal. But, but today it's really so sophisticated that it seems like every time I turn around that there's news, like there's a new scam out now where if you post a selfie online that they're using, the scammers are using those pictures of selfies to put on a fake driver's license, that then they're going to figure out some piece of property that you own. Hopefully it's not occupied. Normally they're looking for land, then they go out and they sell that land and then, I mean, it's so never ending. Yes. It just keeps going on and on.

Frank Abagnale
Well, you know, I have been on the lecture circuit for over 48 years, and I believe that I've had the same philosophy from day one. It's based on three simple points. One, prevention. Because once you lose your money, you will probably never get your money back. They may arrest them, they may send them to jail for ten years, but it's not likely you're getting your money back verification, because today anything can be replicated, duplicated, counterfeited, deep faked AI. So before you part with any money or you part with any information, you absolutely need to know who's on the other end of that device. And I think that word verification going forward, that's going to be the most important word to fighting scams and cybercrime. And finally, education. Education is the most powerful tool to fighting crime. If I can explain to you how the scam works and you understand it, then you will not fall victim to that scam. So we're going to have to educate people. People are basically honest, thank God. But because they're honest, they're very naive. And they have no idea that when I call and I start to turn the conversation around or I use social engineering, they have no idea what AI is capable of doing and what people can do with AI. We're going to have to do a much better job of educating the general public about these things in order to help protect the public.

Speaker C
So if 16 year old Frank was 16 in 2024 instead of back in the sixties, would you, and you still wanted it to con people, would you look at all the technology and still want to write bad and fake checks or how do you think you would do it?

Kim Commando
That's a good question.

Frank Abagnale
I think, first of all, it would be amazing the checks I could create with AI. It would also be amazing all the identification. I mean, you know, back when I made up a phony Pan am id, this was all pasting letters and putting pictures and putting it in a plastic card.

Speaker C
Did you really take the toy plane and put it in the tub so that you could pull off the logo? You really did that.

Frank Abagnale
The decal on there, which looked very awesome for back then. But also I realized the uniform is what sold it. It wasn't anything they saw the uniform that paid no attention to me, that paid no attention to the check. They only saw the image in the uniform. And I realized the power of the uniform very early on. But think about today, that I can replicate passports. I can replicate any kind of credentials. I can replicate them online or offline. So I think we're just at the very, very threshold of AI. And all the things that people can do with it are really limited only to the criminal's imagination. I believe that technology breeds crime. It always has and it always will. And there will always be people who use technology in a negative, self serving way. So they're going to take this technology and find all these different ways they can use it in order to help themselves to other people's money.

Kim Commando
So how do we protect ourselves today, Frank?

Frank Abagnale
I think the first word I tell everybody, you know, I wrote the book scam me if you can. That was very interesting for me because I've spent my entire career dealing with crimes against governments, financial institutions and corporations. I did nothing about consumer related crimes. Then a few years ago, AARP hired me as a consultant. For a few years, I worked with ARP to help them fight crimes against the elderly. And when I was done, I wrote the book scam, if you can, about consumer related scams. And I gave all the proceeds, the royalties, the advance to Arp so they could continue to fight the crimes against the elderly. But when I finished that book, I was absolutely amazed that, first of all, millennials are scammed far more often than seniors. But seniors lose more money because they have more money to lose. And two, that in every scam I wrote about, whether it was amateur scams, the grandparents scam, the sweepstakes scam, the IR's scam, or whether it was very sophisticated crypto scams and bank scams, insurance scams, there were two red flags, and these scams couldn't work unless at some point, the red flag was going to show up. And I always tell people, the first red flag is, I'm going to ask you for money, but it has to be right this second. Misses Jones, give me your credit card number. Misses Jones, give me your bank account number. Misses Jones, stay on the phone, don't hang up. Get in your car, go down to Walmart, get a green dot card, come back out in the parking lot. Read me the number. Has to be right now. That is a huge red flag. And the other red flag is, at some point, I'm going to ask you for information. In romance scams. You have a 70 year old woman. She lost her husband. She has no children, lonely. She meets this man online. She's lonely. And for a year, this is the nicest man in the world. He sends her flowers on her birthday, calls her and checks her. He never asked for anything because a good conman always waits for you to open the door, no matter how long it takes. So sooner or later, she says to him, so, Bob, you've known each other about a year. How come you don't come see me? Only live two states away. Well, Helen, I would, but I have to have an operation and I don't have insurance. And it's $30,000. And if I don't get the operation, I don't know that I'm going to make it. Well, I could give you the $30,000. That's the red flag. You don't know this person. You never met this person. You didn't solicit the invitation to meet this person. And this is where I tell people, you have to stop and verify. I will share this with you. And this was the scariest thing, writing this book. I put in the book that there are con men so good that they are capable of putting people what I referred to as under the ether. And once you go under the ether, there's no coming back. And that's the daughter telling her mother, mom, this is a scam. How many times do I have to tell you? You've already sent this man $15,000. You don't know what you're talking about. He and I have a good relationship. We're good friends. Two weeks later. Mom, this is an FBI agent from the resident office. He's already convicted this guy three times for the same thing. Here's all the paperwork. He wants to share this with you. No, no, no. You know, you have a bad impression of him. No. He's a good guy. That's really scary, because when you go under the ether, there's no coming back.

Kim Commando
You know what? I've taken calls like that on the show, Frank.

Speaker C
Yeah.

Kim Commando
A standout is this. This guy that actually gave $450,000 to somebody who he thought was going to help him make a lot of money in cryptocurrency. I mean, and I tried to explain to him, like, this is not legit. I mean, this is called pig butchering. You're the pig. You're getting butchered. And he just wouldn't believe me. I mean, it just. It was like. I was like, even like, why are you calling me if. If you don't want to know the truth? But no matter what I said, it just. He had a way to counteract it. And I tried to explain to him that they're showing you these cryptocurrencies trades. All this is done on a video. This is not happening in real time. And he's like, yeah, but I made, like, you know, from $5,000 to 15,000. I'm like, you try to get your money out. Try to get. Try to get your money out and then call me back. Never heard from.

Frank Abagnale
No. Exactly. And it's the same way where you have a man who tells you that you keep sending them money because. Why? Well, I won this mercedes, but they say I have to pay this tax and transportation. Yeah, but you've already sent them more money than a Mercedes costs, so why wouldn't you just go buy the mercedes? And besides that, did you enter the sweepstakes? No. Well, then how did you win the sweepstakes? It's very scary when you can't get to people that they've been so conned and scammed that they don't believe what you're telling them.

Kim Commando
Is there. Have you found any way to break through to them? Because I'm curious, if I get the call again, is there anything that you.

Frank Abagnale
Find a lot of times that even an FBI agent or a person will ask me, will you speak to my mother? Will you speak to my father? And I absolutely say, of course I will. Whether it be on a Zoom call or whether I walk over the phone, they know who I am. I say, look, sir, first of all, anybody can be scammed. The most intelligent people in the world get scammed. I could be scammed, no question about it. But this is a scam. And I'm telling you from my perspective that this is a scam. Well, because I'm not the policeman, I'm not the judge, I'm not the social worker. I'm the guy who did these things, and they tend to pay attention to me, and then sometimes they'll drop it.

Kim Commando
Well, you know, Frank, I'm so glad that you spent some time with us. I'm hoping that the conversation that we just had is going to help a lot of people kind of sit back and reevaluate where they are. Because I'm not kidding you, every other day, I feel like I'm getting something from someone who, whether it's like you mentioned the car, the sweepstakes, the tech support scam, the crypto scam, whatever it may be, I mean, it's just the romance scam. Or I just. I met this beautiful woman online. I got this one recently. You know, I looked the guy up. Let me tell you something. He doesn't look like he should be with a 19 year old Russian, okay? I mean, but somehow he thinks, like, she's gonna move to dolphin, Alabama, which is not gonna happen. He's like, 68, or he was like, something like that, and. But he's crazy.

Frank Abagnale
Let me share this, both of you. The most common email I get, and I get hundreds of emails. I can't answer them all, but they're young boys who simply say to me, I was online, and I met this beautiful girl. And after a while, she sent me some nude pictures of her. And then she said for me to send her some nude pictures of me, I did. And within an hour, she comes back and says, either send me $2,000, I'm going to put these pictures on Facebook and out. Everybody at your school. One kid said, I had money saved up from the summer. So I got so scared, I sent her the $2,000. Then she comes right back and says, send me another $4,000. So I finally had to go to my dad and tell them what happened. Again, I don't think we do a good job of educating young people in school. This is like, years ago. When I said these kids don't know how to write a check. They go off to college, they don't know the first thing about filling out a check. They don't know the first thing about handing them finances and getting good credit and keeping good credit. Well, this is the same thing today, 20 years later, we're not teaching these kids, of all the threats on the Internet and how to use the Internet safely, and we need to do a much better job of that.

Kim Commando
You know, instead of teaching them cursive.

Speaker C
Writing, teach them how not to get scammed.

Kim Commando
Well, once again, Frank, thanks for being here.

Frank Abagnale
Really, really. I have to tell you, I normally don't do interviews, but I have such tremendous respect for you. I read your articles. You have done some amazing things to help people, and you continue to do that. So it was an honor and a pleasure for me to be part of your show.

Kim Commando
You know what? Thanks. You know, because Maddie told me that. She's like, Maddie came in. She's like, you know, Frank says he normally doesn't do any interviews, but he's going to do it for you because he likes you. You know what? That meant so much to me. And it means a lot that you just told me that because it's, you know, it's a labor of love. I mean, you know, I want to help people. I really. I really want to make a difference. I want to leave a legacy that. That shows that I was able to have some type of change.

Frank Abagnale
And you've done that.

Kim Commando
It means a lot that. That you see that. Thank you.

Frank Abagnale
Well, thank you both for having me. It's a pleasure.

Kim Commando
What a nice man.

Speaker C
Yes. It's funny that we were talking about these scams. I was just talking about my. To my good friend Barack Obama on Facebook. He and I are working on some big money deal, but he said that anybody could get scammed. And he's right. The president was right.

Kim Commando
Really? Was it? Yeah.

Speaker C
We're besties.

Kim Commando
I thought you were talking to Bill Clinton.

Speaker C
He's old news all about Brock, baby.

Speaker A
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Kim Commando
Hey, it's Kim Commando today. I'm so glad that you're here because let me tell you, if you just heard that interview with us and Frank. Abigail. Oh, my gosh. You want to make sure that you actually see the interview, head over to YouTube.com kimcomber. That's YouTube.com kimcommando, because this is a true multimedia experience.

Speaker C
That sounds fancy when you say it that way, isn't it?

Kim Commando
I mean, you can get the audio podcast, which means, like, when you're running around getting your stuff done, or you can watch the video podcast. And when you watch the video podcast, you get to see me win win. And I got my hair cut. Looks great. All right, what you got?

Speaker C
I got, first to start out with an apology. Last week, you had mentioned that chat GPT and went to chat GPT 4.40 for omni.

Kim Commando
Yes.

Speaker C
Yeah. And then you said it was going to be available to everyone, and I was like, no, it's not. I went on, and it was, well, today I went on, and this pop up just, we have chat for. Oh, click here to turn it on. And so it is available for free, even on the web version.

Kim Commando
It's so hard.

Speaker C
Everyone, I don't know why the timing didn't work, and I. But I just want to apologize.

Kim Commando
Thank you.

Speaker C
You were correct. There's a couple of stories, actually, about AI. We mentioned when we were talking about chat GPT 40 last week that the voice of the sky program, which is the voice interactive part of chat GPT, sounded a lot like Charlotte Johansson.

Kim Commando
It did.

Speaker C
And they said, and they came out and said, listen, we went out and we found voice actors and the person that is the voice. Now, there's multiple voice options with the sky chat GPT, but this person, this is their normal voice. They're not trying to sound, sound like Scarlett Johansson. This is just how they speak. It's just an actor that we hired. Oh, by the way, we're pulling that voice option from it because it sounds way too much like Scarlett Johansson.

Kim Commando
Whoopsies.

Speaker C
Yes. So they're pulling that off so there won't be an option. They said they're working on it, but I definitely think that means that voice will never be back. And they were trying to get her voice from the movie her, and they got caught doing it. The other story.

Kim Commando
Yes.

Speaker C
There are two voice actors that are filing lawsuits because they say their voices were stolen by AI and used as voiceovers. I'm gonna play them.

Kim Commando
Okay.

Speaker C
There's two different. There's a male and a female.

Kim Commando
Okay.

Speaker C
I'm gonna play the real voice, and then I'm gonna play the AI version of their voice. And you want. I want you to be the judge and you tell me if they have a case. So we'll start with Paul.

Kim Commando
Hi, my name is Paul Sky Lehrman. I'm a professional actor and voiceover artist.

Speaker C
So that's his real voice.

Kim Commando
Okay.

Speaker C
This is who he's accusing of stealing his voice.

Kim Commando
Introducing Jenny by Lovo. Artificial intelligence that makes it fast and easy to create voiceovers for marketing c learning. Documentaries, animations, games, audiobooks.

Speaker C
Pretty dead on.

Kim Commando
Yes.

Speaker C
I mean, that really sounds like him. And it wouldn't be hard for these AI companies just to download every single video he's ever posted online and then just have the algorithm and the software make his voice. So we have another one. This is the female voice actress.

Kim Commando
Hi, my name is Linnea Sage and I'm a voiceover artist. This is my normal speaking voice, but this is the corporate and commercial speaking voice that I use in most of my voiceover.

Speaker C
This is the AI version of her.

Kim Commando
Our certified teachers are ready to help your son or daughter come of reading, writing, arithmetic and more. I can, I can hear. I think I hear the cadence.

Speaker C
Yes. To be the same, the inflection is a little bit the same.

Kim Commando
Right.

Speaker C
But not as much as Paul.

Kim Commando
Exactly.

Speaker C
Now we will never hear. I'm pretty sure the company that they are suing will just settle because of how similar the voices are. So I don't know if we'll ever hear a resolution to this, but both of them have gotten together and they are suing the AI company for stealing their voices.

Kim Commando
I just going to put it out there.

Speaker C
Yes.

Kim Commando
If anybody is watching, listening from OpenAI, I have a very nice, soothing voice. It's a confident voice. It's a sultry voice. It's something that I think chat GPT would benefit from.

Speaker C
It's also an expensive voice.

Kim Commando
I'm not saying it's overly expensive.

Speaker C
Right. But it's not cheap.

Kim Commando
It's not cheap.

Speaker C
No, no, no.

Kim Commando
So if you're watching and you're listening and you're thinking like, that really should be the voice of OpenAI. You know, just go over to commando.com. There's a link that says, ask Kim and you can ask me how much. I mean, I think, I think it should be worth a lot of money. I'm just gonna say, I mean, what do you think?

Speaker C
Can I be your agent? Cause I'll be standing right behind you and be like, yeah, it's really expensive. This is one of the best voices ever on the radio.

Kim Commando
How much you gonna charge?

Speaker C
8%.

Kim Commando
That's too much.

Speaker C
What?

Kim Commando
Okay, how would you.

Speaker C
I went lower than $10.

Kim Commando
Million a year.

Speaker C
Right. 8% chump change for you.

Kim Commando
Okay. What? No. You're supposed to say, no. It's worth more. See, that's where. That's where you suck as an agent. You're supposed to try to get me more money. You're supposed to say, kip, 10 million is, like, nothing. 10 million. We should go for, like, 30 million. We got 25 million.

Speaker C
If they're gonna say yes to ten, let's just take it.

Kim Commando
No. Yeah. No. First of all, he who mentions price first loses every time.

Speaker C
Well, you mentioned price first. That's why we lost.

Kim Commando
They didn't send me an email yet.

Speaker C
15 million. That good?

Kim Commando
Iron.

Speaker C
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Kim Commando
Hey, it's Kim commando today, and if you ever want to ask me a question on my radio show, that would be really fun for you us, to have just a little chit chat, just go to that ask. Kimbutton over@commando.com dot. That's komando. Kommando.com dot. Hit that ask Kim button. Make sure that you like comment, share, follow, subscribe, easy, whatever it is.

Speaker C
Thank you.

Kim Commando
Okay.

Speaker C
Woman on TikTok posted a video of got 30 million views. She was stuck in her own Tesla.

Kim Commando
No way.

Speaker C
Yes.

Speaker A
Guys, I'm literally a moron.

Kim Commando
I'm a moron. Updating my car is she's been updating for the past 30 minutes. It says it's only supposed to chart or update for 24 minutes.

Speaker A
And when your car is updating, you.

Kim Commando
Are stuck in your car. If you activate it when you're in here.

Speaker C
So she's at a chickfila parking lot.

Kim Commando
And now I'm stuck in my car.

Speaker C
She's at a chick fil a parking lot. She decides I'm gonna go ahead and update the car. The Tesla software, run inside, eat my food. When I come out, we'll be good to go.

Kim Commando
But she can't get out.

Speaker C
She starts the update, locks her in. She can't get out. She was in there for 40 minutes. The temperature's in the car. Go to 115 degrees.

Kim Commando
There's no like emergency release.

Speaker C
There absolutely is. She was too busy posting on TikTok and responding to comments to reach over to the door and pull the handle.

Kim Commando
I'm sorry, I was gonna say yes.

Speaker C
On the model Y's. It's a manual handle. It doesn't look like it's there because Tesla doesn't want to look like it has a handle.

Kim Commando
Okay. She's a moron.

Speaker C
She's a moron.

Kim Commando
She said she was a moron at the beginning.

Speaker C
She also got 30 million views.

Kim Commando
Okay. Did she make any money off of that?

Speaker C
Probably.

Kim Commando
Nah, I don't know. Okay, so I really am enjoying reels.

Speaker C
Okay.

Kim Commando
And shorts.

Speaker C
Is this your first time you've moved over?

Kim Commando
Yeah, I think it is.

Speaker C
So why are you picking reels and shorts on YouTube and Instagram and not actually TikTok?

Kim Commando
Because I have this whole thing against TikTok in the Chinese.

Speaker C
Ok. All right. So security reasons.

Kim Commando
And then, you know, if I'm going to use TikTok, I have to put on another phone. I don't want them to get all of my voice prints, face prints that I'm doing. So it's just easier just to go on Instagram.

Speaker C
It's pretty much the same content. People are just posting it everywhere.

Kim Commando
Okay, so now this video is very visual.

Speaker C
Okay.

Kim Commando
Okay. So if you are listening to the audio version of Kim Commando today, I encourage you, go to YouTube.com Ken commando. Just go ahead, find this show. I'm sure Frank Abagnale is going to be in the title. And then just go all the way to the end. And so you can see this video because when you buy vegetables.

Speaker C
Yeah.

Kim Commando
Okay, you know what? No, it says like triple washed.

Speaker C
Sure. Yeah.

Kim Commando
And you're like, okay, like the bags.

Speaker C
Not like you're getting it from the buckets at the grocery store. The pre bags.

Kim Commando
Yeah. This is like triple wash. You don't have to wash it. You don't do anything. Well, here's a video that shows how they triple wash it.

Speaker C
Oh, I can't. I'm excited.

Kim Commando
So there's carrots. That's a one wash. Somewhere in South America where they're taking the water from the river to triple wash.

Speaker C
There's a lot of feet in there. It might have been six or seven times washed.

Kim Commando
Triple wash. I'm washing, I wash my vegetables.

Speaker C
Oh, yeah, I got that soap, that spray bottle soap.

Kim Commando
I don't have that spray bottle soap.

Speaker C
Yeah, go get it. It's veggie wash. It's easy.

Kim Commando
Veggie wash. I should sell that.

Speaker C
Of course. Right to the money. Right to the money every time.

Kim Commando
20 million. This program is a copyrighted production of Westar multimedia entertainment and protected by the copyright laws. Any rebroadcast or use of this program for commercial, business, economic or financial purposes without the written permission of Westar multimedia entertainment is strictly prohibited.