Why can't Americans agree on immigration?

This episode dives into the complexities of American views on immigration, addressing the political, economic, and social facets that contribute to diverging perspectives.

1. Political Polarization: Immigration remains a deeply partisan issue, with Republicans generally emphasizing border security and Democrats advocating for more humane policies.
2. Economic Implications: Immigrants play a crucial role in the U.S. economy, particularly in essential sectors, yet political narratives often overshadow their contributions.
3. Legislative Stagnation: Despite the urgent need for reform, political deadlock and strategic maneuvering continue to stall significant legislative progress on immigration.
4. Cultural Perception: The identity of America as a melting pot is challenged by rising xenophobia influenced by political leaders.
5. Media's Role: The portrayal of immigration issues in the media significantly affects public perception, which can lead to misinformation and heightened tensions.

1. Introduction

Karen Tumulty introduces the topic and guests, highlighting the episode’s focus on understanding the divisive nature of immigration in America.
Karen Tumulty: "It's a podcast where we bring you into the conversation that our columnists are having about the biggest issues on their minds."

2. The Political Divide

Discussion on how political affiliations shape perceptions of immigration and policy-making.
Jim Geraghty: "There's a sense that certain laws in this country are effectively optional."

3. The Economic Necessity

Exploration of the economic necessity of immigration, debunking myths around immigrants’ impact on the job market.
Karen Tumulty: "Demographically, we need a lot more workers."

4. The Asylum Challenge

Analysis of the challenges within the asylum system and the backlog of cases affecting immigration courts.
Leon Krauze: "There are 3 million cases pending right now, even more in the US immigration court system."

5. The Cultural Debate

A deeper look into how immigration is interwoven with American identity and culture.
Leon Krauze: "Narrative matters. I do think that political rhetoric plays a role."

1. Educate Yourself on Immigration Issues: Understand the different aspects of immigration to form an informed opinion.
2. Engage in Constructive Dialogue: Discuss immigration openly, focusing on facts rather than political rhetoric.
3. Support Comprehensive Immigration Reform: Advocate for policies that address both the economic needs and humanitarian concerns.
4. Recognize the Contributions of Immigrants: Acknowledge and celebrate the roles immigrants play in society.
5. Challenge Misinformation: Counteract stereotypes and misinformation about immigrants in your communities.

A quarter of Americans, most of them Republicans, say immigration is the most pressing issue facing the country. Post columnists Karen Tumulty, León Krauze and Jim Geraghty discuss why this issue is top of mind for so many people, how politics continues to thwart policy and whether Americans still see our country as a cultural melting pot.

People

Karen Tumulty, Leon Krauze, Jim Geraghty

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Karen Tumulty
This podcast is brought to you by intel vpro.

Leon Krauze
The costs of such. Of such. I'm so sorry. I was being almost poetic. Give me a second.

Karen Tumulty
Who let the dogs in?

Jim Geraghty
This question will continue to dog America.

Leon Krauze
Oh, my goodness. Okay. Three, two, one.

Karen Tumulty
This is impromptu from Washington Post opinions. It's a podcast where we bring you into the conversation that our columnists are having about the biggest issues on their minds. And today we're going to be talking about immigration. It's a topic that about a quarter of Americans are saying is the number one problem facing the country. And while the politics of immigration are often focused on the border, there are deeper questions at play, like how immigrants fit into our economy and whether the idea of America as a cultural melting pot is still the vision people want. I'm Karen Tumulty, an opinions columnist, and today I'm here with two of our colleagues to get into all of this.

Leon Krauze
I'm Leon Crausi. I'm a mexican journalist, also an american journalist for a few years now.

Jim Geraghty
I am Jim Garrity. I am the senior political correspondent for National Review, because that's what you call a political correspondent who gets old.

Karen Tumulty
Well, so let's start with the politics. Republicans are far more likely than Democrats to say that immigration is their biggest concern. Independence falls somewhere in the middle. We recently saw President Biden, who came to office promising to reverse what he saw as the inhumane policies of Donald Trump, do basically an about face and is imposing some of those same policies back in place. So tell us, Jim, what's really going on here?

Jim Geraghty
I think at the core of it, and maybe why this resonates with Republicans, maybe this is why roughly half of independents are so concerned about this. Is there a sense that certain laws in this country are effectively optional, that certain laws aren't really enforced, that they're on the books, that they're there, but they're not really enforced in a significant way, and that everybody, particularly in the Biden administration, knows, you come to the border, you say, I'm seeking asylum. Now, some of these people have very legitimate claims. Some of these people not so legitimate. And that they have, oh, we're going to give you a court date, and that court date's going to be in the year 2029 or some sort of far off date. And in the meantime, you get to stay in the country. And that, I think, strikes a lot of people as, if not open borders, then de facto open borders. And it sticks in people's craw. This sense that I, as a law abiding American have to obey the laws, but these people get a pass. And I think that's a core issue of why it's a burning passion for a certain chunk of the electorate.

Karen Tumulty
But, Leon, for the first couple of years, this administration really resisted referring to this as a crisis. And it was really only when the inflow of migrants started putting pressure and stress on cities far away from the border that we saw them sort of having to reassess their policies.

Leon Krauze
I mean, let me be clear. I think there is a crisis at the border, but I think it's important to correctly identify what kind of crisis we're talking about. Republicans use, as you know, particularly inflammatory language. Speaker Johnson speaks of an invasion, a word that has the gravest national security implications. The term has become now almost mainstream among Republicans, and it carries alarming connotations. Donald Trump speaks of, of a national emergency and of open borders. I would argue that this is not an invasion. It is not a national emergency. If by national emergency, we speak of a threat to the country's safety and the administration does not have an open border policy, it has not been perfect, far from it. I can give you a long list of criticism when it comes to the Biden administration and the border, including the way it has dealt with Mexico. But I don't think it's accurate to say that there's an open border policy in the United States. This is a humanitarian crisis. It is not exclusive to the United States. It requires systemic solutions. And I think that part of the problem is that for the Republican Party, I mean, the party is not willing to consider systemic solutions because right now it will be politically inconvenient.

Karen Tumulty
You know, I've been covering this issue since the 1980s when we had a republican president named Ronald Reagan who actually embraced the word amnesty and in fact, drove a really broad based immigration reform. Now we're living in a country where the population is aging, the birth rate is slowing, and demographically, we need a lot more workers. 5 million of the people who were deemed essential workers during COVID people who were forced to go to work, were people who were not in this country as permanent legal residents. So how do we come up with a more rational solution that both addresses the humanitarian needs but also the needs of the population here, Jim.

Jim Geraghty
So, you know, this was not implied in your question, Karen, just kind of observing. Every now and then I'll hear somebody saying that America is a xenophobic country. And I think that's nonsense. Americans love legal immigrants. They welcome legal immigrants. And the overwhelming majority of these people who become legal citizens are terrific people now, they've gone through the background checks. They've got through. It is a long, slow, aggravating, and paperwork laden process full of delays and all that kind of stuff. However, ask a single person who's immigrated to this country, was it worth it? And my guess is that if not all of them, the 99.9% will say, yeah, it was an absolute pain in the neck, but it was worth it. And in that process, we do a pretty darn good job of weeding out the people who are gang members, criminals, drug dealers, people who have traits and habits and problems that we would not want to come into this country. You walk across the border, you can be trouble. We will never have perfect immigration enforcement. We will never have perfect border enforcement. But you'd like it to be as effective as it can be.

Karen Tumulty
But, Leanne, a lot of the people coming over now are people who turn themselves in and say, we are seeking asylum. And the asylum system that we have in this country was built in the wake of wartime to deal with people who were, you know, refugees. And the fact is, even with Biden saying he's tightening up the border, they don't really have the resources to deport the types and the number of people they are talking about. So what needs to be fixed here?

Leon Krauze
The answer is legislation. Time and time again, we should go back to that. I mean, you see the backlog in the us immigration court system. It's so immense, it's absurd. I mean, there are 3 million cases pending right now, even more in the US immigration court system. The backlog has tripled since the beginning of 2017. What needs to happen? There needs to be an increase in the number of judges. And frankly, when you look at the bill that was in front of Congress a few months ago, there's a number of provisions that would have helped. Would it have solved the issue? Probably not. But, I mean, if you look at the details, it would have added 2700 border patrol agents and iCE agents, billions in funding for border security. But politics killed it. Politics killed it. Of course, the left also showed some distance with the bill. But when you think of the Republican Party, they did it for political, so that the issue could, I think, remain top of mind for voters, and they succeeded. But the decision was about politics, not public policy. And it has been that way for a long, long time with this specific issue of immigration. And that's led us to the moment we are in now. And I say this, having been one of those people that Jim was referring to, I've had every kind of visa in my passport since I was a student at NYU. Then I came here with an h one B visa, then an O visa, then a green card, and now I'm a proud citizen of the United States. It took me years and years and years. I never believe this is a xenophobic country. On the contrary, actually. But I do think that the system has to, let's say improve. Let's say improve.

Karen Tumulty
So, Jim, is that true? I mean, do you think that in turning down the bill that was in front of them, Republicans decided they'd rather have the issue than the solution?

Jim Geraghty
Well, first of all, before we get any further, Leon, I'm glad you're here, and America's better for having you here. So thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Beyond that. Yeah. Look, there's no doubt that Donald Trump wanted to run on the issue. The immigration program system is broken, bride and broke it. I had it all fixed. It was all terrific. You know, that's really good, Jim. That's eerily good, Karen. Leon. I've had. I've had eight years to practice, and I was hoping I'd be able to retire this impression, but I can't. He just won't go away. Um, imagine conceivably, uh, Mike Johnson and Joe Biden and Chuck Schumer, they all get together in a room and they put together the best immigration reform package anyway. And Republicans are thrilled, let's say, you know, additional funding for the, for border wall construction. Everything goes out there. What does Trump run on? Right. Like, all of a sudden? Wait. You know, wait, wait. That's my thing. That's my schtick. What are you doing? You know, this was also tied in with the funding for Ukraine, for Taiwan, for Israel. And there were also some grumbling from Republicans on that issue then. But this was going to be this grand deal that was going to unite all this together. And maybe it was always a little too ambitious. This was a time was very clear, okay, Trump's going to be the nominee again. How many Republicans want to cross Trump on an issue as important as immigration? Not likely. And the deal, look, Leon, is correct that the additional funding for border Patrol, hiring more people, those are good things. So those are important steps in the right direction. It did not have any additional fencing, and I think that would have been a help. And I think also the amount that they were the triggers for closing down the border, which Biden has now said, okay, I'm going to go ahead and do this anyway. That was not quite as low as I think a bunch of republican immigration restrictionists would have liked to have seen. But the fairest criticism of Mike Johnson and other Republicans back then was that they looked at the deal that had come out with Lankford, the senator from Oklahoma, and all stuff. They turned their noses up at it, and they didn't make a counteroffer. It was extremely unlikely to see this issue resolved in 2024. We saw what Biden did earlier this week. It is June of 2024. It is very tough to see that this is going to change perceptions of Biden and the border and illegal immigration between now and November. They can try, and I think it's better that they try than not try. But it's a little late in this presidency to try to say, oh, look, I'm a tough guy on this border issue.

Karen Tumulty
Well, I want to get into the larger question, the one with more historic sweep, which is how Americans see the role of immigration in our culture and in our national identity. But we've got to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

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Karen Tumulty
Welcome back. I'm Karen Tumulty, and this is impromptu. The issue of immigration is as old as America itself. There have been endless debates over who should get in and how much they should assimilate into the culture. We've gone through periods in our history of xenophobia, and we've also gone through periods of great openness to immigrants. We think of ourselves as a melting pot, a special blend of people from all over the world and that really make ours a unique culture. Leon, do you think that's still an idea that Americans are holding onto, or is there a better metaphor for the current moment that we are in?

Leon Krauze
What a question. I think it's crucial. Listen, I do think in our current political, social and cultural moment, Karen, narrative matters. I do think that political rhetoric plays a role, and the way that the media presents the story plays a role. As someone who has focused for a long time on the contributions of immigrants to the country, I would ask, how many stories have we seen in national network news about the essential importance of immigrant labor? How many documentaries, how many Instagram posts, how many TikTok videos, how many speeches by politicians of any party? How many people in the United States, as a consequence, truly understand the central importance of immigrants in a long list of industries in the country, construction, hospitality, the meat and dairy industries, all of them would collapse without immigrant labor. I mean, we look at immigrants, we tell their stories. When there's a tragedy like the bridge in Baltimore, for example, where to? I mean, lo and behold, it turns out that immigrants were working the graveyard shift to fix our roads. Now, if no one tells a story or that side of the story, is it any wonder that people in America see immigration as the biggest problem facing the country? And by saying this, I'm not, I don't mean to say that there's no crisis on the border, that this is not an issue that we should focus on. That is not one of the most important issues facing the country. But there's another side of the story, and that side of the story is simply not told enough.

Karen Tumulty
But, you know, we all sort of hang on to our own immigrant stories. I mean, Jim, I don't know if the tumultys and the Garritys were neighbors back in Ireland or what do you think that we have lost that that thread of our identity?

Jim Geraghty
You know, our perception of this is probably shaped by the 800 pound elephant in the room or orange gorilla in the room, however you want to characterize it, of Trump. And look, when he went down the golden escalator at Trump Tower, the very first thing he did in his announcement speech was, they're not sending their best, they're sending rapists and all that stuff. Like, there are a lot of ways to say, we have a problem with Il immigration, we have a problem with the border. We have a problem with tracking people who are entering this country illegally. But that's just about the most incendiary way you can put it, right? That's just about the most you know, screaming headline, trying to freak people out. Way to do it. And Trump can take a lot of legitimate points and pour gasoline onto the fire of people's worst instincts.

Karen Tumulty
Well, I'm afraid that neither of you have made me terribly optimistic that a larger, more comprehensive and more rational immigration system is anywhere in the cards, given the state of our politics these days. I think we saw as recently as about a decade ago, a group of senators who included Marco Rubio, trying to come up with a sort of broader plan. And again, that would use technology and really make the system more rational than it is. But is there any reason to hope?

Jim Geraghty
Was that the assignment? I don't remember being told we have to give Karen hope. That's a higher bar to clear. I might have prepped more.

Karen Tumulty
I want you to give me a reason to hope and do it in Trump's voice, but go.

Jim Geraghty
Ok, so semi seriously, you could say that the 2024 choice right now is between a president who Americans feel underreacted to waves of migrants coming to the border against a president that probably overreacted to waves of migrants coming over the border. If Biden loses, maybe democrats will be a little, you know what? All right, maybe we got to go along with some more enforcement here. If Trump loses and if there's not republican gains in the Senate and the House that they're expecting, maybe they'll look at this also say, you know what? Maybe we played that card a little too hard. Maybe we came across as a bunch of, you know, genuine xenophobes, and we just came across as people who hate immigrants. People didn't pick up on the distinction between legal immigrants and illegal, and they came across as a bunch of people who hated people. And we need to change. I wouldn't bet a lot of money on that, but I think that's a conceivable outcome from how 2024 shakes out.

Karen Tumulty
Well, Leon, as someone who's actually lived the immigrant experience with all of its frustrations, I'm going to give you the last word here.

Leon Krauze
Well, Karen, thank you. I'm not hopeful on the politics as long as it remains a politically convenient issue. I think we are in for a, another dark period when it comes to immigration reform. But I'm hopeful when I think of public opinion in general, maybe it's because I'm just a natural optimist. But, I mean, I would like to close on, like, a warning note, which in itself should present a stark choice for the american electorate. I mean, 41% of Americans want immigration to decrease, according to some polls. Right. And Donald Trump has threatened to unleash this system of mass deportation of undocumented immigrants that will be objectively disastrous. GDP would immediately fall between 1.4 and 2.6%. It could result in nearly an 8 trillion economic hit over 14 years, increased labor costs. I'm reading down a list that I have here, and the list is almost a page long. I won't bore you with it, but maybe I should, because I think that part of our job, and it will be our job in the coming months, and if Trump wins, even more so to remind our listeners and our readers of not only the real costs of such a policy, but also, again, of the other side of the immigrant story, which needs to be told, if only to be fair and to complete the picture that an average american voter has of, of what immigration is at the moment, what the crisis entails, and what needs to be done to fix this broken system.

Karen Tumulty
Well, thank you so much for being part of this conversation and for being part of another episode of Impromptu.

Leon Krauze
It's been a pleasure, Kai, and thank you for having me.

Jim Geraghty
Thanks for having us.

Karen Tumulty
This episode was produced by Hadley Robinson, edited by Damir Marusek, Chris Solentrop and Alison Michaels, and mixed by Emma Munger. Chris Rukhan designed our art. Thank you for listening to impromptu and help us get the word out about our podcast. You can do that by telling your friends or leaving us a review, and feel free to reach out to us directly. To share your thoughts on this episode or any episode of Impromptu, email us a voice memo@impromptuashpost.com and a credit to.

Leon Krauze
My dogs as well.

Karen Tumulty
Yes.

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