Biden finally overshadowed Trump, in all the wrong ways

This episode critically discusses a pivotal debate between President Biden and former President Trump, highlighting the challenges Biden faced during the event.

1. Biden's performance was notably poor, impacting his public and political image.
2. Trump appeared more disciplined than in previous appearances, which might play to his advantage.
3. The debate setting and rules seemed to favor Trump, despite being orchestrated by Biden's team.
4. There's significant concern over Biden's capacity to continue campaigning and potentially serving, given his age and public performance.
5. The episode underscores a broader crisis in political discourse, marked by misinformation and lack of accountability.

1: Opening Remarks

Karen Tumulty sets the stage for the discussion on a recent debate's fallout. The hosts share their initial reactions and the debate's surprising dynamics. Karen Tumulty: "This is impromptu from Washington Post opinions, and today we're coming to you with a special bonus episode."

2: Debate Analysis

The hosts delve into the specifics of Biden's and Trump's performances, emphasizing Biden's faltering and Trump's relative discipline. Dana Milbank: "Biden was just so feeble that he couldn't effectively counter any of it."

3: Political Implications

Discussion on the potential political repercussions for Biden following the debate, including calls for him to withdraw from the race. Jim Garrity: "Your primary legacy was going to be as the man who stopped Trump. Right now, your legacy is on course to be the man who enabled Trump to get back into the White House."

• Reflect critically on media coverage to discern between performance and substance in political debates.
• Advocate for transparency and accountability in political reporting and debate moderations.
• Engage in political discussions with a focus on policy impacts rather than just persona.
• Support platforms that provide fact-checking and unbiased reporting.
• Encourage political engagement that prioritizes long-term national interests over short-term gains.

President Biden’s debate performance has Democrats in a panic and Donald Trump supporters gleeful. Columnists Karen Tumulty, Dana Milbank and Jim Geraghty process how things feel the morning after, whether the president should step aside and how the truth was the night’s biggest loser.

People

Joe Biden, Donald Trump

Content Warnings:

None

Five Below
Five below means hot stuff, cool prices, and the best kind of fun anywhere. The trends you see all over your feed can be yours for way less than the rest. Like cant keep in stock, candy and snacks, brand name beauty, the latest tech room decor and lots more. Plus, get extreme value finds you just have to see to believe in. Our five beyond shop. Yep, you could say were kind of a big deal here. Shop over 1600 stores nationwide and fivebelow.com dot.

Karen Tumulty
I was saying, jim, I'm operating on 3 hours of sleep, and I've written two columns since last night, so I'm kind of, my fuel gauge is a little low.

Jim Garrity
I myself will be restocking. I'm on this will be third cup of coffee, fourth.

Dana Milbank
But anyway, well, I didn't write two columns, Karen, but I did have an early morning appointment with my forester.

Karen Tumulty
Oh, and what does one do with a forester?

Dana Milbank
We wandered along the edges of the woods talking about where trees need to be planted. I was definitely at my finest this morning, and I would just like to warn you in advance that I am tired enough that I just may pull a Biden on you all and forget what I'm talking about.

Jim Garrity
I was expecting that. I'm also expecting a lot of botanical comparisons. Well, Biden's kind of a redwood who's, you know, tall and stacked.

Karen Tumulty
We could go for the Barbara Walters question. If he were a tree, what kind of tree would he be?

Dana Milbank
He was very much like a tree this morning.

Jim Garrity
Democrats are weeping willows.

Dana Milbank
Oh, my God. All right, I'm signing off now.

Karen Tumulty
This is impromptu from Washington Post opinions, and today we're coming to you with a special bonus episode because there was an unprecedented event last night, a former president and the current one facing off in a debate, and, well, it turned out to be an earthquake. I'm Karen Tumulty, a columnist here at the Post, and I'm still in Atlanta, where I watched the debate live in the filing center last night. I've got two of my colleagues on the line with me, Dana Milbank and Jim Garrity, to talk through what happened and what it might mean for these campaigns going forward. Welcome to both of you.

Dana Milbank
I'd say it's a pleasure, Karen, but under the circumstances, I'll just say good morning.

Jim Garrity
I'm happy to be here, in part because I'm not in Atlanta.

Karen Tumulty
Well, we've had a night to recover from what happened, or at least a partial night. Let's start with this. What was the most memorable moment for both of you last night?

Dana Milbank
The most memorable. I mean, it was in the early minutes of the debate, and it's when Biden suddenly turned in real life into that guy that he looks like in all the doctored republican videos, when he first forgets what he's talking about and just wanders off into some random line about Medicare. I mean, you know, it's happened to all of us. I suppose you just lose your train of thought. But, wow, in front of, what, 70 million people, just, you know, I don't think you can really recover from that. And, you know, he did slightly better later on in the night. But yes, I would say it's somewhere between unmitigated disaster and slightly mitigated disaster.

Jim Garrity
So, most memorable moment, I would have concurred with Dana. Maybe watching an almost 82 year old and a 78 year old man argue about who was the better golfer was a triumphant moment in american politics. I'm just looking forward to the next debate in September moderated by Tiger woods. Look, going back to the 2020 campaign when Biden was allegedly running a basement campaign, a lot of that could have been justified to try to keep a then 78, 79 year old man away from COVID But it was throughout Biden's presidency, we'd seen this. Fewer press conferences, fewer sit down interviews. It was pretty clear that we were not getting nearly as much time with the president in camera taking questions for years now. And a bunch of us have said, you know, the guy's in his eighties. He doesn't, he often seems kind of out of it. He often seems kind of tired, you know, and often the response from the likes of Karine Jean Pierre is, ah, he has so much energy, I can't keep up with him. And, ah, you know, he's got as much energy as he did years ago. And I think we can now say that was nonsense. What you see is what you get. There is no better, sharper, more energetic Biden behind the scenes.

Karen Tumulty
I think the course of the debate was set from the moment he opened his mouth at the beginning. I mean, especially when I was expecting something like State of the Union Biden to come out and his voice sounded so hoarse and so fraile, it just didn't seem like it got much better. But, guys, both President Biden and former President Trump, they've been able to talk in pretty friendly environments for most of this campaign season. This was an opportunity, I think, really to see them both raw. How did Donald Trump do, Dana?

Dana Milbank
Yeah, I actually wrote a column on this point because it wasn't just Biden sort of failing to speak in any sort of a coherent way. You know, everybody's in a silo now, and, you know, everybody has their own media environment. And this was the first and perhaps the only opportunity where you'd have what I would call the reality based community on one side and then sort of the MAGA insanity on the other side. And here was a chance to put everything right and set the record straight. And that was the biggest tragedy of that, is that Trump did what he did in his rallies, and he spouted one bit of nonsense after the other, just outright lies about him, about Biden, about Nancy Pelosi, about everything. And Biden was just so feeble that he couldn't effectively counter any of it. So that's why I say it wasn't just Biden who lost and the Democrats who lost. It was the truth itself that lost last night, because there was just no counterweight to all the lies.

Jim Garrity
I would just point out that, like, by the standards of a normal presidential candidate, Trump didn't have a great night. He was a little more disciplined at the beginning, and I think it wore off as the night wore on. But it says something about how bad Biden was, that so much of the coverage this morning is, oh, my God, look at how Biden was. Also, Donald Trump was there. It takes a lot to overshadow Donald Trump. And Biden managed to do it. That's how terrifying, that's how, you know, unnerving Biden's performance was the heart of the Trump argument, which he went back to over and over again, was, everything I did was the best ever. It's never been better than it was. This is a golden age. Every American was in heaven, and everything he did is the worst. We're in hell, we're in a rat's nest, blah, blah, blah. And Trump went back to that. Now, he had a couple of good attack lines here. And there were. Biden's record has some very soft. There's a soft underbelly on the border and inflation and cost of living. He had a fairly easy case to make, and he did it in part because it wasn't that hard. And people will point out accurately that a lot of what Trump said were lies. The problem is that for the last three and a half years, we've been told Biden's fine. Don't worry. I know he seems a little old, but he's doing great. That clearly was a lie. And I think there was such a glaring and flashing neon sign of a lie that it kind of nullifies the effect of wow. Trump said everything was great on his watch, and it wasn't. Hey, there was this little thing called Covid and everything else.

Karen Tumulty
Well, you know, there was an irony, too, that struck me as the debate went on, which is that this was a debate that was set under terms of engagement that were dictated by the Biden campaign. They determined the timing. They insisted on the rule that the microphones should be cut off when it wasn't a candidates turn to speak. And in the end, I think all of those rules ended up being, you know, playing to the benefit of Donald Trump. You know, he was not the unhinged Donald Trump who came out in the first debate in 2020. He was much more looking like the prepared and more disciplined. And again, this is a relative thing when you're talking about Donald Trump, but he looked much more like somebody who had actually done some homework and came in with a strategy.

Dana Milbank
I'm not so sure that was the debate rules that did that. I'm not sure the rules themselves are what benefited Trump as much as just the contrast. As Jim was saying earlier, there's a long tradition of complaining about the moderators in these things. So I just want to dip a toe into that. Look, Dana Bash is a friend of mine. I've known her and Jake for, I don't know, 25 years. I doubt that this was their decision, let me just say. But the CNN decision to have zero fact checking, to have zero real time correction of the outrages, I think was a real disservice to the country and to journalism. Now that, you know, as I wrote in the column, that's not to let Biden off the hook. That was ultimately his responsibility to do. But I think more than the rules of the debate, I just think the moderators, you know, they would sit there and say, you know, the moon is made of green cheese, Trump would say, and they'd say, thank you, President Biden. So it just, I mean, it was, that, that was just painful.

Jim Garrity
So remember when after January 6, they took Trump off Twitter, suspended his account? And there's, you know, I think considering the actions on January and the things that Trump was saying, it's very easy to justify that decision. But I think it actually worked very much to Trump's benefit because a lot of what Trump rants on true social never reaches the eyes or ears of lots of Americans. So in a way, taking Trump off Twitter worked to his advantage because it reduced the audience for his more unhinged moments. Well, in this case, shutting off the microphones when it wasn't Trump's turn to talk meant that he couldn't repeat that first debate performance of 2020. And he couldn't sound like this obnoxious, shouting, boorishe, insufferable guy who just won't shut up. And probably Biden's best moment in that first debate was, will you shut up, man? Like that, just expressing the feelings of the audience and probably Chris Wallace at that moment. And so, like, in a strange way, all of these things that we think are designed to say, well, that's gonna finally put Donald Trump in his box. And that's gonna put. Well, actually, it works well. Cause it makes him seem like a more normal human being instead of the unhinged maniac that he can be so often.

Karen Tumulty
Well, we're gonna get to the question that's on so many people's minds, should President Biden drop out of the race?

Jim Garrity
I'm sorry, you're not done with the question.

Karen Tumulty
First, we're going to have to take a quick break.

E
Summer weather is for exploring our world's natural wonders. But what happens when human predators visit these serene landscapes with evil in mind? Im Delia d'Ambra, and my series, park predators is taking you beyond the beauty of the most unique places on earth and into the chilling stories that have overshadowed these picturesque destinations. Because it turns out that the most beautiful places can hide the darkest secrets. Listen to park predators now. Wherever you listen to podcasts, this podcast.

F
Is sponsored by IQ bar. Need an afternoon pick me up? How about a replenisher after a good workout? Or maybe some smooth, jitter free energy? Try the IQ bar sampler pack right now. Get 20% off all IQ bar products, plus free shipping. Weve got plant protein bars for strength, mood lifting hydration sticks, and brain boosting coffee to keep you full and focused all day long. Meticulously formulated brain and body fuel in all our IQ bar products. For all your daily needs, this sampler pack is the perfect place to start. Plus, everything's ultra clean, ultra functional, and ultra delicious. Refuel smarter, hydrate harder, caffeinate larger with.

Dana Milbank
Iqbar, go to eatiqbar.com and enter code bar 20. To get 20% off all IQ bar products, plus free shipping. Again, go to eatiqbar.com and enter code bar 20.

Karen Tumulty
Welcome back. So, as we've discussed, this was clearly a very, very bad debate for President Biden, really, one that reinforced the concerns that people have had about his age and his mental acuity. And there have been calls here and there for him to drop out all year long. But this morning's coverage feels very, very different. So, Dana, do you think President Biden should drop out?

Dana Milbank
You know, I've never joined that chorus before, mostly because I've always said, well, it's not going to happen, so what's the point of doing that? You know, would I prefer that there were somebody else as the democratic nominee, as the only man, you know, left standing for truth? Absolutely. I'd like to see that. So if Biden were to decide the best service to the country he could right now is stepping aside? Well, I would applaud that decision. So I guess that's the same way of saying yes. But then what happens then Kamala Harris? Is that a better representation for the Democrats? I just feel like they, and therefore the country, are in a pretty terrible spot right now.

Karen Tumulty
Yeah. And this idea that you could open up the democratic convention to Kamala Harris and whoever else might want to drop in, into the race, I can think of at least three governors. You know, theoretically it could happen, but practically, this is not the old days when you had party bosses who could meet in the proverbial smoke filled room and make their choices. I just really find it hard to imagine that these thousands of convention delegates could coalesce around a choice that quickly and that that choice who would be someone really untested by a true primary, could actually get them over the finish line in November. So. Yeah, and maybe that they're just kind of stuck with the lame horse they rode in on.

Jim Garrity
Look, there's kind of this mythology in some circles that Biden pledged to serve one term. He never explicitly said that. But there was a lot of talk back in 2019 and 2020 that Biden saw himself as a bridge candidate.

Karen Tumulty
Bridge. And, you know, he was perfectly happy to leave that impression.

Jim Garrity
And, you know, I think most people knew that a president running for reelection in his eighties was hard to envision and that, you know, that this was expectation that Biden would select a running mate and that running mate would be ready to go within four years. And I think everyone had very high hopes for Kamala Harris. And I think the greatest proof that not even many Democrats have a great deal of faith in Kamala Harris is because we didn't hear any significant democratic lawmaker or even that many liberal columnists saying Biden should not run for another term. Kamala Harris should be the 2024 democratic nominee. And if they thought she could do it, people would be saying that they don't think she can do it. There have been two types of profile pieces written about Kamala Harris over the last three and a half years. The first one is Kamala Harris has got her groove back. And then the second one is, what's wrong with Kamala Harris? Why can't she get her groove back? It's just been this endless cycle over and over again and staff changes and, oh, she's getting more responsibility. Pretty clear she's not turned out the way Democrats were hoping. The delegates to Biden are pledged to Biden. If Biden were to decide, you know what? It's clear it's time for me to hang it up. Jill and I are going to go enjoy our house in Delaware and pass the torch. Then those delegates are free to vote for whoever they want to. They are not necessarily obligated to support Kamala Harris. They could go to Gavin Newsom or Gretchen Whitmer or anybody else. But that having been said, there's no indication that Joe and Jill Biden don't want to live at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue for the next four years.

Karen Tumulty
So, okay, if you're on Biden's team this morning, if you're Jill Biden or Ron Klain or Mike Donalin or Anita Dunn, what are you telling him this morning? What's your advice?

Dana Milbank
If I'm one of them, I'm certainly, I'm probably not advising him anything because I'm hiding under my bed. In fact, I only got out from under my own bed so I could turn on my laptop and face you guys. Uh, you know, if he's going to listen to anybody, it's going to be the impromptu podcast. No, I'm kidding. If he's going to. If he's going to listen to anybody, it will be those people that you just mentioned. You know, that's part of why I say it doesn't do us any good to say, yeah, Joe Biden should do this and such. But if he's hearing it from the people around him, if he's hearing it from his family, if he's hearing it from donors, maybe that will mean something different. But I think otherwise, we're just sort of talking into the wind.

Jim Garrity
Speaker one, if I were trying to advise Joe Biden right now, it would be, mister president, 24 hours ago, your primary legacy was going to be as the man who stopped Trump. Right now, your legacy is on course to be the man who enabled Trump to get back into the White House after January 6, after his indictments, after his convictions. You don't want that to be your legacy. Step down or announce you do not want another term. Tell Kamala Harris, like, do your polling and focus groups. And if it's what we all suspect, that Kamala Harris would not run particularly strong against Donald Trump, then you tell her, we're gonna find a job for you. We're gonna give you the next open Supreme Court seat. We're gonna find something really good for you, and we're gonna pick any two democratic figures who we want as close to the generic Democrat as you can. You notice democratic Senate candidates are running well ahead of Biden in a bunch of these swing states, Democrats could plausibly argue that they don't have a message problem, they have a messenger problem, that Joe Biden is uniquely weak as a candidate because of his age and because of his, the way he comes across right now. You pick any two. Gavin Newsom, Cory Booker, Amy Klobuchar, Gretchen Whitmer. Any two democratic governors, pick one from Michigan because it's an important state. You'll like your odds a lot better, because right now, the odds of Joe Biden winning reelection are probably for most of this race. I thought it was roughly 50 50. A little bit more, a little bit less. But I think Biden did real damage to himself last night. I think he really comes across as a man who belongs in a retirement home, and that's going to lose against Trump. Trump's not popular, but Biden is even more unpopular right now. And I think somebody's got to level with the president and say, this is not, it's time to stop the happy talk. It's time to stop pretending things are going to turn around. You went out there and you pooped the bed of, and there's no way to come back from this. And we need two fresh faces to be the candidates of change, because the country doesn't, one, doesn't like your record so far, and two, doesn't think you're in any shape. Something like two thirds of America think he's gonna be dead by 2028 like this. This is an unprecedented situation, and it was the only thing you needed to see to foresee. This is a calendar.

Karen Tumulty
Well, I think with that, I should thank you both for joining me for this episode of Impromptu.

Dana Milbank
And after that, I'm getting right back under my bed. Thank you for that, Jim.

Jim Garrity
Look, I love being the ray of sunshine. Look, here's the thing. Good news, America. We're probably not going to have a doddering old man as president. We're just going to have a constitutional crisis in Trump's second term. So good luck, America.

Karen Tumulty
So this episode was produced by Hadley Robinson, edited by Damir Marusic. Chris Solentrop and Alison Michaels and mixed by Emma Munger. Chris Rukan designed our art. And special thanks to Millimetra, Nick Safan, Travis Meyer. Thanks for tuning into impromptu and please follow us wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss any special episodes like this one. And if you like the show, please leave us a review. Thanks.

G
There's a lot happening these days, but I have just the thing to get you up to speed on what matters without taking too much of your time. The seven from the Washington Post is a podcast that gives you the seven most important and interesting stories, and we always try to save room for something fun. You get it all in about seven minutes or less. I'm Hannah Jewell. I'll get you caught up with the seven every weekday, so follow the seven right now.

Five Below
Five below means hot stuff, cool prices, get the trends in your feed for way less candy, beauty, tech room decor, and more. Plus extreme value finds in our five beyond shop. Yep, you could say we're kind of a big deal. Shop in stores and fiveballone.com.