America, we love you. But it's hard.

This episode explores modern American values, the complexity of patriotism, and the evolving sense of national identity across different generations.

1. American patriotism is experiencing a generational shift, with younger people feeling less connected to traditional notions of national pride.
2. The term "patriotism" has become polarizing, often associated with a narrow and sometimes nationalistic view of American identity.
3. Personal backgrounds, such as those of immigrants, enrich and complicate the sense of being American, highlighting diverse interpretations of what it means to be patriotic.
4. There is a significant need for education and understanding to bridge the gaps in perception about American values and history.
5. The episode suggests that a balanced approach to patriotism should involve both critique and admiration, allowing for a more inclusive and realistic appreciation of America.

1: Introduction

The episode begins with a light-hearted Kit Kat advertisement before transitioning into a deeper discussion on American values and patriotism, led by host Theodore Johnson. Theodore Johnson: "Almost everything in America seems politicized. Democracy, diversity, and even patriotism."

2: Personal Reflections on Patriotism

Karen Attia and Jason Rezayan share their personal connections to American identity, reflecting on how their backgrounds influence their views on patriotism. Karen Attia: "I think the word patriot has come to symbolize, particularly a white kind of male defending blindly America at all costs."

3: Political and Social Implications

The discussion explores how political parties and societal changes impact the notion of patriotism, emphasizing the divisive nature of current political climates. Jason Rezayan: "I think back to the fact that our levels of education are decreasing on a really sort of epidemic level."

4: Looking Forward

The episode concludes with thoughts on the future, considering how upcoming national anniversaries might serve as points for reflection and unity. Theodore Johnson: "The country will turn 250 years old in two years. July 4, 2026."

1. Engage in community discussions to understand diverse perspectives on patriotism.
2. Educate oneself and others about the complexities of American history and its impact on current societal values.
3. Promote inclusive events that celebrate various aspects of American culture.
4. Advocate for educational reforms that emphasize civic responsibility and historical accuracy.
5. Participate in civic activities that foster a sense of community and shared values.

It’s the week of the Fourth of July and the word patriotism is as divisive as the rest of American politics. Theodore Johnson, Karen Attiah and Jason Rezaian discuss the good and the bad about the United States, and how to reconcile its shortcomings while pushing for a better future.

People

Theodore Johnson, Karen Attia, Jason Rezayan

Content Warnings:

None

Speaker A
We all know Kit Kat bars taste.

Speaker B
Delicious, but what about how they sound?

Speaker A
It's not just a catchy jingle. It's the satisfying crack of breaking off a piece of Kit Kat followed by a crisp crunch. Oh, we forgot one other sound that accompanies Kit Kat bars, too.

Speaker B
It's.

Speaker A
Or maybe it's more like altogether, Kit Kat bars are music to our ears and yummy flavors to our mouths.

Speaker B
Have a break.

Speaker A
Have a kitkat.

Theodore Johnson
This is impromptu from the Washington Post opinions. It's a podcast where we bring you conversations about the issues we can't stop thinking about. I'm Theodore Johnson, or Ted, a contributing columnist, and today we are taking stock of modern day american values. Almost everything in America seems politicized. Democracy, diversity, and even patriotism. Are there even american ideals anymore that we can all agree on? To talk about this, I'm joined by two of my colleagues.

Karen Attia
My name is Karen Attia, and I am a columnist.

Jason Rezayan
My name is Jason Rezayan. I'm a columnist, and I'm also a bicentennial baby.

Theodore Johnson
Okay, so, I think for many folks today, their patriotism or feelings about being american are complicated. People who say they're extremely proud to be american is at a record low. Patriotism has been an increasingly polarizing word generally. While about 70% of us say patriotism is important to them, that number drops with each generation, with Gen. Z being just over 30 ish percent. So let's start there. What's your personal relationship with being american? And do you consider yourselves patriotic?

Karen Attia
So, for background, for me personally, I was born and raised in Dallas, Texas, but my parents are immigrants. My mother is from Nigeria. Nigeria. Ghanaian. And my father is ghanaian. So I actually grew up aware that my family was, quote unquote, from somewhere else, but that America was the place where particularly, like, my father got to chase his dream and sort of got to, you know, get an education. And I still remember when my parents finally got naturalized back in the nineties. And particularly my mom really did adopt maybe the form of, quote, unquote, patriotism that people think of today, which is, like, ideas of what it means to be american culturally. So I'm thinking of, like, being really interested in football, the Dallas Cowboys, like she can. Even today, she knows the stats of all the players, all the rankings, like, more than anyone, super into NASCAR, country music. And also, we grew up evangelical Christian in Texas, where the ideas of americanism, patriotism, are also very much entwined with what it meant to be christian, frankly.

Theodore Johnson
Right.

Karen Attia
So then, for me, I guess as an adult, I do find it hard to reconcile. I think the word patriot has come to symbolize, particularly a white kind of male defending blindly America at all costs from any and all criticism. It's more so, I think, a tribalism, nationalistic tribalism than it is sort of this America as this idea where difference is celebrated is encouraged, where people do have the freedom to self act. I think America has beautiful ideals, but whether patriotism is the way to reach those ideals, I don't know.

Theodore Johnson
Right. So, Jason, what's your sense of this?

Jason Rezayan
I do consider myself to be patriotic in that more traditional sense that Karen was talking about. For me, what it means to be american is not only an opportunity to self actualize, an opportunity to come up against an intermingle with all comers, people from all over the world, of all stripes, all colors, all beliefs, and to do so in a way that is not necessarily validating of each other's differences, but accepting of them. That's what America is to me. And you can't tell me that it was set up to be something else. I've experienced that in my life in many ways in diminishing ways in recent years. So while I agree with Karen that in some spaces the idea of patriotism has turned into this other thing about kind of muscular defense of your right to bear arms, I just don't think that that's what it actually means. Right. And I'm not going to let anybody in my life kind of take away and redefine for me what it means to be patriotic. Right. That nationalism. I don't think that we were a really nationalistic country. And I think that that was what was great about the feeling of being proud to be american wasn't, hey, we're american and, you know, go f yourself. It was more, you know, you can come here and make it, too, do what you want to do, and nobody's going to get in the way of you doing it.

Theodore Johnson
Yeah. So I'll tell you, for me, being american is the only thing I can be. And I am proud of who I am and how I was raised and the people that raised me and the cultures that I belong to. So I'm extremely proud to be an american. And there's not any other thing I would rather be. On the question of patriotism, my struggle there is a lot of patriotism, is often uncritical. And so it's as if you are patriotic because you think your country is perfect or because you think your country is so exceptional that everyone else should sort of get out of its way and allow America the spotlight. And I'm not that kind of patriot. I'm the kind of patriot that loves very much the country that I was born in, belonged to, wore the uniform for, but also recognizing it has fallen very short. As a black man who's been pulled over 40 times by police in the 30 years he's been driving, I know where the work this country needs to do is. In 1955, James Baldwin writes in notes of a native son, I love America more than any other country in the world. And exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually.

Karen Attia
Yeah. That quote. I think particularly for us as writers, you know, in the opinion section. And, you know, you write particularly on political or cultural subjects. And I think when something happens, whether it's sexism, racism, discrimination, that is a betrayal of the promise that America sets for itself. So when anytime somebody betrays what they, who they say they are, then it's like, it's your job to be like, hey, wait a second.

Theodore Johnson
Yeah. Hypocrisy.

Karen Attia
Yeah. That's not democracy. That's not, you know, that's not what we fought for. That's not what you've marketed to the world as one of your strengths. So then, you know, when you get the pushback that you know, well, why don't you leave? You don't like it so much. And I'm like, I just wanted to be better. Right.

Theodore Johnson
Okay. So I want to talk more about how we take all the good and the bad about our history and our current politics and how we move forward. But first, let's take a quick break.

Hannah Jewell
Theres a lot happening these days, but I have just the thing to get you up to speed on what matters without taking too much of your time. The seven from the Washington Post is a podcast that gives you the seven most important and interesting stories. And we always try to save room for something fun. You get it all in about seven minutes or less. I'm Hannah Jewell. I'll get you caught up with the seven every weekday, so follow the seven. Right now.

Speaker A
We all know Kit Kat bars taste delicious, but what about how they sound? It's not just a catchy jingle. It's the satisfying crack of breaking off a piece of Kit Kat followed by a crisp crunch. Oh, we forgot one other sound that accompanies Kit Kat bars, too.

Speaker B
It's.

Speaker A
Or maybe it's more like altogether, Kit Kat bars are music to our ears and yummy flavors to our mouths.

Speaker B
Have a break.

Speaker A
Have a kitkat.

Theodore Johnson
All right, y'all. So in recent years, it's felt like the different political parties represent diverging ideas about what american values even are. So I wanna get your sense on how that's affected patriotism, our sense of being proud about being american and how politics has encouraged a division on how we see these things instead of being a uniting force. Maybe. Jason, we'll start with you this time. What's your sense of the politicization of american values and even the term patriotism?

Jason Rezayan
I think it's become so divisive, and I think we have to look back at the fact that our levels of education are decreasing on a really sort of epidemic level. Right. And so when I hear someone who espouses freedom and liberty through the ability to buy guns, because our founders said that, you know, you have to have guns, so if the government gets too crazy, you can, you know, storm the Capitol and kill them. I don't think that that was the plan. And I remember civics class. That's not what they were talking about. So I think we have to kind of look at education as a core challenge of where we're headed. But I do think that the country is more divided than it's ever been in my lifetime.

Theodore Johnson
Yeah, it's so interesting. Federal holidays. National holidays are inherently political. I mean, the 4 July in particular, when the. I think it was in the early 18 hundreds, the Declaration of Independence was mostly lost to history. I mean, it was a historical document. Americans didn't cite it, but it was when the political parties started to debate which one would be better for the country, which party. And clinging to the declaration became their way of showing that they were more american than the other political party. Sort of the politicization of our founding documents of words like patriotism, the place of America in the world, that's part of our heritage, too. We come by that instinct. Honestly, I think the problem we're seeing now is that the symbols have been hijacked by one side, and if the other side were even to try to grab onto it, it would almost seem like they're undermining the very things they're working for. It's almost as things like racial justice, equity, diversity are things that run counter to things like democracy and patriotism, when in fact, they're quite aligned. So my biggest issue I see with the politicization of patriotism is that the incentive structure encourages a sort of hijacking of national symbols that are supposed to bring us all together for political purposes in order to divide us and for one side or the other to grab onto power and sort of the way the political parties grab onto patriotism, that tends to be the right wing side of politics in countries around the world. And then sort of what we were saying earlier, that nationalism aspect of the patriotism comes to the fore, and all kinds of nasty things can happen when nationalism is unbridled, especially when patriotism is the fuel to get that stuff going.

Karen Attia
I think one thing about America that we sometimes forget, particularly in Washington, is that America is massive and we have, like, very regional differences, regional, like, subcultures within America that I don't really always think it's so much of a red blue thing as it is. Like, we have very different americas that don't connect with one another in many ways. Right? Again, the diversity is great and beautiful, but there's almost a certain balkanization. So the idea that I can be in my home state and as a woman, I have less control now over my own reproductive decisions, and I go to another state, and I have literally more human rights, and we hear it all the time. People are like, man, things would be better if we just let certain states go and let them do their own thing. And, like, how do we keep this whole ship together? I think that's the challenge. And we in the media, how do we sort of either play up these divisions, you know, is red team, blue team, because it's easier to sell tickets to the political sports show if you're rooting for one or the other. But is that really accurately what's actually happening? I really just think we actually are kind of multiple countries and cultures in one.

Theodore Johnson
So last question. The country will turn 250 years old in two years. July 4, 2026. It's the semi quincentennial, you know, centennial 100 Quinn Centennial 500. Semi Quinn centennial half of 500 250. I think Gen Z, we need a Gen Z intervention here for a new name. If it's quarter of a millennium, quarter Milli kind of works for me. I think that's a better title than simiquin. But I've been thinking about how to move the country forward using that anniversary as an inflection point. So if this is a time when we should can be proud of the nation's progress, but we should also reckon with its shortcomings and aspire to something shared together, going forward could be a really, really powerful anniversary. So no matter who the president is in 2026, if you had the president's ear, what would your recommendation be for how to bring the country together, move forward? Just sort of. What's your best sense of how to make the most of this benchmark anniversary.

Jason Rezayan
Well, as a bicentennial baby, I feel uniquely qualified to answer this question. I mean, I like this idea of.

Theodore Johnson
What we call it, semi quincentennial.

Jason Rezayan
But what's the name that you wanted to give it?

Theodore Johnson
Oh, quarter million. Yeah, quarter million. I'm a fan of quarter million.

Jason Rezayan
So, you know, I think back to the bicentennial, you know, I wasn't very cognizant of what was going on around me yet, but we were coming out of a pretty divisive time then too, right? You know, it was on the heels of Watergate and people wondered what the presidency would look like after that. If I would give one piece of advice to either one of these presidents, whoever becomes the president, actually get out of the way, let the country decide how it wants to celebrate this. Right. I trust us to figure it out.

Theodore Johnson
Yep. The grassroots of democracy are at the local level, there's no doubt about that. So I feel you, Karen, what are you thinking?

Karen Attia
Yeah, I agree. Especially as we are seeing more expansions on the power of the presidency over the years. Right. I agree with Jason. I'm like, ah, we are not a nation that needs kings. If anything, you talking about a quarter of a millie makes me think of a Lil Wayne song like a millie from when I was in college. Honestly, I think the best way to celebrate at that time bring back viral dance like challenges. Have us all do some what's it subsequently dance challenge that we can all share and maybe give to a good cause. Just like we used to have. We had the ice bucket challenge and remember just those, I guess just thinking of those times that brought people together just in our humanness and joy.

Jason Rezayan
Well, the Europeans have that Eurovision and obviously we have America's got talented and all that. But what about like an amerivision, like a state something, but I mean something where let's bring.

Karen Attia
Yeah. Where we can. Where we as Americans can just have fun with one another. Put the differences aside, whether we can all do the electric slide at the same time together. Something that we all. I don't know, maybe the electric slide.

Jason Rezayan
And leave your guns at home.

Theodore Johnson
Shared experiences. I'm with you.

Karen Attia
Something.

Theodore Johnson
Okay, we are out of time, but thank you both for being part of this episode of Impromptu and we'll have to do this again soon.

Karen Attia
Yeah, thanks for having me.

Jason Rezayan
Thank you.

Theodore Johnson
This episode was produced by Hadley Robinson, edited by Damir Morusic, Chris Sellentrop and Alison Michaels and mixed by Emma Munger. Chris Rukin designed our art. Special thanks to Millie Mitra, Nick Safin, and Travis Meyer. Let us know your thoughts on this episode. Email a voice memo to impromptuashpost.com and if you're enjoying the show, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts. It really, really does help. Thank you for listening.

Hannah Jewell
Theres a lot happening these days, but I have just the thing to get you up to speed on what matters without taking too much of your time. The seven from the Washington Post is a podcast that gives you the seven most important and interesting stories, and we always try to save room for something fun. You get it all in about seven minutes or less. I'm Hannah Jewell. I'll get you caught up with the seven every weekday, so follow the seven right now.

Speaker A
We all know Kit Kat bars taste.

Speaker B
Delicious, but what about how they sound?

Speaker A
It's not just a catchy jingle, it's the satisfying crack of breaking off a piece of Kit Katiefe followed by a crisp crunch. Oh, we forgot one other sound that accompanies Kit Kat bars, too.

Speaker B
It's.

Speaker A
Or maybe it's more like altogether, Kit Kat bars are music to our ears and yummy flavors to our mouths.

Speaker B
Have a break.

Speaker A
Have a Kit Katief.