105: Transition from Product Manager to Group Product Manager

This episode discusses the career progression from a product manager to a group product manager, featuring insights from Nkem Nwankwo, a successful group product manager.

1. A group product manager is primarily a manager of product managers, focusing on clearing pathways for their team.
2. Transitioning within one's current company is common due to established trust and familiarity.
3. Effective group product managers often continue some individual contributor roles due to budget constraints or strategic needs.
4. Continuous self-improvement and strategic career moves are crucial for success.
5. It's essential to position oneself in growing companies where opportunities for advancement align with business expansion.

1: Introduction

Overview of the podcast's theme and introduction of guest Nkem Nwankwo. Primary focus on transitioning to a group product manager.

• Jeff Shulman: "We are going to talk about transitioning from product manager to group product manager."

2: Nkem's Journey

Nkem discusses his background, early interest in technology, and unexpected transition from engineering to product management.

• Nkem Nwankwo: "I started off my career as a software engineer...then I moved into product management."

3: Defining Group Product Management

Exploration of the group product manager role and its responsibilities, emphasizing the dual nature of managing and contributing.

• Nkem Nwankwo: "A group product manager is, to put it very simply, a manager of product managers."

4: Challenges and Strategies

Discussion on the challenges of the role and strategies for effective management and leadership in product development.

• Nkem Nwankwo: "You have to figure out how to manage both individual contributions and management responsibilities."

1. Seek opportunities in expanding companies: Growth facilitates the need for higher-level positions.
2. Develop trust with superiors: Demonstrating reliability and competency is key to promotion.
3. Embrace continuous learning: Stay updated with industry trends and skills.
4. Balance IC and managerial duties: Learn to manage time and responsibilities effectively.
5. Network and find mentors: Leverage experiences and advice from established professionals.

If you are looking to transition from product manager to Group Product Manager, you can get advice from Executives in Residence in the Elevate Program. Learn more and apply at https://elevate.info.foster.uw.edu/

In this episode of the How to Succeed in Product Management Podcast, marketing professor Jeff Shulman welcomes Nkem Nwankwo (Greenhouse Software) to talk about transitioning from PM to group PM. Moving from a PM to a Group PM role involves mastering trust-building, scalability, and aligning team goals. It's a big step that demands leadership growth and effective team management, leading to success in the world of product management. In this episode, you can learn the crucial steps in managing teams and aligning visions for success in a leadership capacity.

People

Jeff Shulman, Nkem Nwankwo

Companies

Leave blank.

Books

Leave blank.

Guest Name(s):

Nkem Nwankwo

Content Warnings:

None

Nkem Nwankwo

You.

Jeff Shulman

Product managers give 100% of themselves to their customers. But who's there for the PM? The product management center at the University of Washington. It's a global hub for knowledge, community, and impact. I'm Jeff Schulman, founding director of the Product Management center and your host on this show, how to succeed in product management.

You welcome, everybody. My name is Jeff Schulman, and I'm the founding director of the product Management center here at the University of Washington. And we are here recording the how to succeed in product management podcast. And we've got a short and sweet episode. We're going to just do this 25 minutes, and we are going to talk about transitioning from product manager to group product manager.

And I've got inkem here who has made that transition, and you can learn from it. So we're going to talk for about 15 minutes, and then if you want to learn more about how you could transition to group product manager, I encourage you to check out the new elevate program by the product Management center, which is a chance for you to elevate your career and elevate your peers. You could have access to executives in residents and to courses that could help you make the same transition that NkeM has made. So with that Nkem, tell us a little bit about yourself before we start diving into learning from your experience. Just tell us who you are and what your journey has been like so far.

C

Hey, everyone. First of all, glad to be here. I appreciate the opportunity. I'm inkem Wonkwa, and I am the group product manager of ecosystem over here at Greenhouse. I've been up at Greenhouse for about a year and a half, worked in product for over ten years now.

I live in Dallas, Texas. My wife and two kids, two very young kids. And, yeah, I just love products. So just really happy to be here and I guess a little bit about myself and my journey. I've always been interested in technology.

Even as a little kid, I was always taking electronics apart and all of that. So tech is just in me. Right? With that said, I wanted to be a computer engineer from an early age, and I started off my career. I went to Georgia Tech, so go jackets.

Started off my career as a software engineer on a scrum team. I did that for about a year and a half, and then our product owner on the team got promoted to another position. And then our engineering manager or a director at the time said, hey, do you want to do this product thing for the interim until we hire somebody else into that position? I said, you know what? Sure.

It'll give me more visibility. Cool. Two weeks later, he said, I had no idea that you were going to hit the ground running like that. You should actually go ahead and do it. And that's how I got into product, and I've been in product ever since.

So that was my transition from being an engineer to a product manager. And that was back in 2011, 2012. And yes, since then, I love product, and it's been my focus in my career since then. All right, I love the shout out to the family and shout out to the education that you received. And we're here as an educational institution at the University of Washington and grateful to bring in new people into the fold to share such great insights with our.

Jeff Shulman

And Kim, I think most people here are here because they want to become a group product manager, but some of our community members are either aspiring product managers or fairly new in product management. And I'm just curious, what exactly is a group product manager, in your words? Yeah. So a group product manager is, to put it very simply, a manager of product managers. So what I do, my job is to clear the pathway for the product managers who report under me to be able to focus on the most valuable things for our customers and our business.

Nkem Nwankwo

Right. So I help them in their careers. I make sure that they're aligned with the company vision and the whole group's vision as well. And we collaborate really closely on what the research and development EPD, whatever the acronym is, teams should be actually working on. And one little fun fact about group product manager, because I've been in this role in multiple companies, is that you are a player coach a lot of the time.

C

So I'm actually an IC at the same time. So I see a team because, hey, budget is tight and I'm supposed to have another resource, but we don't have the money. Not that we don't have the money for that right now, but we don't have the headcount for it right now. So I am icing a team at the same time as managing the two pms under me. And so you said that you've been a group product manager at several places.

Jeff Shulman

So is that unusual? Or can most people who become group product manager expect to pinch it, so to speak, and also pick up some IC work as well? So it's really interesting the progression that you go from, I guess, an IC product manager up to a group product manager, right. In certain instances, the way that you actually get in, in my opinion, it's super hard to go from an IC in one company. To being a group product manager for another.

Nkem Nwankwo

Right. Because there's a huge gap in trust that you have to build up to actually gain this position over here. And we could chat about what I think is like a glass ceiling as far as product management actually goes and actually jumping to that level, actually managing product managers. But with that said, the normal progression that you're going to go from is within your company. You'll go from an IC to managing PMS, and you're still going to have remnants of your IC role in the past because you're going to be an expert in that area.

C

And it's hard to actually make that transition, but you have to figure out how to manage both of those. And we could talk about the nuances of that as we go forward. I mean, why not right now? No time like the present. What are the nuances of kind of letting go of what you had and transitioning to what you're going towards and what are some of the challenges and how do you overcome them?

Yeah, so I'll talk about, first of all, to even get into the role of group product manager, I had to just work super hard, right? So I had to put in a ton of hours and really just make it known that in my area, where I'm a lead product manager, you don't have to worry about fires. I had to basically instill trust in me from my manager, our director, our head of product at the time, to say that, you know what, Nkam always has it. I don't have to worry about this area because there's a ton of other things that I'm focused on right now. I don't have to put energy towards coaching him or anything like that.

That's one of the biggest pieces to actually getting promoted in the first place. Obviously, the other piece is going to be that you're working on influential areas and that you're working on influential work and you're bringing value to the company. And then I think maybe the most important piece. Actually, this is the most important piece. Let me make this clear, right?

Everybody, listen to this. You cannot be a group product manager just in title, right? Just to give you that role. There needs to be a reason that you're actually promoted into this position in the first place, right? And what I mean is that there's actually, think about it as a total addressable market or whatever, there has to be a need that you actually get going up there.

So if your area of the business is expanding and there needs to be more product focus there, and you cannot yourself handle it, and you actually have to grow the team, then you're probably going to need a manager over those individuals that are growing there, right? And that's going to be in the opportunity that's created there. You're not just going to be given a group product manager position because you've been working in this area for this long, right? So whenever people ask me about this topic, I always give them the heads up that, hey, you want to be in an organization that's rapidly expanding. You want to go for a company that's growing, a company that has a lot of funding or is bringing in a lot of revenue because they can expand the team, you're going to cap yourself if you're going for a company that's at the same revenue every year and is not investing in that area because there's going to be no reason for you to even go up to group product manager.

So that should be the number one thing that you look for, actually. Like, is this place growing? So I can actually grow into this role. So with that said, talking about letting go of the IC role and everything like that, your job, once you get into GPM is to figure out how do I make myself scalable? How do I make my thoughts and our vision as scalable as possible in the sense that I can't do the work of three, four people, right.

There's no way that I'd be able to do that. Rather, I can instill values, strategy, your tactics, the things that you implement on a day to day in those three to four people, and they can be extensions of you to move even faster, and there's a multiplicative value that you get from that, right? So my goal every day is to sit down and say, all right, how do I make myself more scalable and make sure that my reports are doing what they need to do and I don't have to be all up in their business, right. But at the same time, I still have a lot of IC work to do. So there's going to be a ton of context switching going from the level of, hey, I'm working on user stories and then I'm talking to executives or making a pricing committee decision right, in the same exact day.

So that's one of the toughest things. The amount of the levels that you have to go through. And to be honest, I don't think that I've 100% mastered it, but I do a decent job. All right. I love it.

Jeff Shulman

This is super helpful and I want to double click. I heard that expression once, and I've used it all the time ever since. And I know some people hate it. I'm going to double click on that. One of the lessons you just gave, a very concrete lesson of if you want to become a group product manager, work in a company and on a product that's going to grow where the team grows, and then you get that expanded responsibility.

Are there any other takeaways that you have from? I want two types, and I'm going to preview them both and then start with one of them. The things that you feel that you did personally, that helped you instill the confidence in leadership to give you the group product manager role. And then I also want to hear some of the things that you did that you wish you didn't do. Some things that either slowed you down or were not exactly helpful that you would hope that somebody else would do differently if they want to become group product manager.

So let's start with the things that you did that you're proud of and you attribute to your success. Yeah, so I would say personally in my career, what I've always actually looked for in every transition that I made is that I added different skills to my tool belt as I went along. Right. When I switched jobs or I switched areas of focus here, I specifically intentionally went to this position here because I said I haven't done this before, or this is something that I feel like is missing from my product management skill set. I'm going to go into this role, I'm going to learn it really quickly, and then I can add that to my tool set.

C

As a PM, you should always be doing that. Right. So when I came into the role, the IC role, right before I became a group product manager, I had a bunch of tools already, and I legitimately told my manager, hey, I actually don't like being micromanaged. If you give me the strategy and you give me the vision of what you're going to be working on, I'm going to fill you in on what we're doing and all of that, but you're not going to have to worry about me. Right.

And that is one of the most beautiful things that a manager can actually hear, but you have to give them the confidence that you have the ability to pull that off. And now, how did I pull that off? When I first got to this company, this particular area was always on fire. It's always some kind of fire drill that's happening. This broke here.

That broke here. All of that first week that I got there, I said, all right, I'm going to map out exactly all of the different components of this area, what the vision is, and we're going to come up with a strategy from 10,000 foot view on where we should go over the next year to two years. Right. So we can get ourselves out of this whole of all these problems that I'm hearing directly from the co founder. Right?

I put together that diagram, I wrote a strategy together, I presented it to him and he said, whoa, you just summarized everything and you've only been here a week. Right. And after that it was me guiding them through how we were going to the tactics that we were going to do to march towards that vision there. And honestly, from there, as long as you keep everybody updated and you give them the stats on everything that's going on and all that, they're going to just roll with it. And from my perspective over here, our team collectively with me kind of leading from a product direction, cleaned up a lot of the fires that we were experiencing over there.

And it was just through that sheer my 1st 90 days, every time I get in a position, I'm going to hit it hard, like super hard. I'm going to kill it completely to the point that whoever I'm reporting to says, hey, I don't even have to worry about him. He's got it right. And I did it that one time and they were like, you know what? All right, we're going to expand your area.

We got a lot of things that we want to do over here. Here's some pms. And ran with it. So that's how I got promoted. Thank you so much.

Jeff Shulman

Because these kinds of stories could really inspire somebody to really be proactive and to make the change that will help both their company and themselves. Anything that you did that you wish you didn't do or anything that you would say, hey, don't waste your time. I wasted more time on x than I should have. Anything that you would say don't do or anything that you would do differently that you realize, gosh, I wish I would have done that. It actually pains me to say this because I want to be nice and help everybody out and everything like that.

C

One of the biggest things that ICPMs get bogged down in is their meetings. One, and number two is going to be the support issues that come up. Right. Early in my career, I got really bogged down in both of those. So I still have a ton of meetings on my calendar.

But every like six months or so, it is actually really critical that you go and you do an evaluation of your calendar and evaluate all the different types of meetings that you have. There's meetings that are recurring, there's meetings that are ad hoc, and then there's different levers of importance, leverage that you get off of those meetings. And if you put those all in a matrix there, right, you could figure out which meetings are not as important, but they're taking a lot of time out of your day and out of your weeks. You should actually start pruning those meetings out. Why?

Because you can focus on bigger, more important pieces of work there. You can start talking to customers more instead of actually being in these meetings. That actually low leverage and you have them recurring on a recurring basis, that's taking out a lot of your time. So that's one thing that I would have liked to learn a little bit earlier in my career, because once you do that, it's like a weight is lifted off of your shoulders and you can work on, quote unquote, being more strategic. Right.

And then the other piece on the support issue piece, I really wish that I would have much earlier focused on being more scalable as far as different support issues and all that, and creating more guides and more faqs on how certain issues should be dealt with. Because if not, you're just going to be bogged down in slack, being transactional and being tactical and being reactive. That's the word that I was looking for instead of being more strategic. So I think it would be those two things. So how do you politely decline meetings in a way that shows people that you care and you value them and you value what you're doing?

Jeff Shulman

Because I could see where it could go sideways, where they think, oh, and Kem's not coming to these meetings because he doesn't care about what we're doing or he doesn't want to be a part of it. So how do you thread that? I mean, honestly, most of your coworkers are going to actually understand if you actually explain it, right? One of the biggest things that people feel apprehension on is actually bringing up a topic in the first place. But what you'll learn from psychology is that all you have to do when you ask something, most people actually want to help out and they want to actually assist you.

Nkem Nwankwo

Right. And then if you add an explanation as to why you're actually asking this, then I think it's something like 80% of the time, if you walk up to a random stranger and you ask them a request and you actually put a reason behind it, they'll actually comply to it within reason, something like that. It's some crazy look up Robert Chowdini's book influence. I think he talks about this topic here. Right.

C

So if you apply that strategy to actually asking to get out of meetings, you can tell them, hey, I'm actually focused on a, B and C-X-Y and Z, or this is my input for this meeting. I see that this is coming up. These are my thought processes on it. I just want to let you know that I won't be attending this one over here. Right.

They're going to be understanding of that. Or they might just ask you, hey, with your absence, is there any way that you can supplement it? And they'll be understanding of it. So I actually would spin it to say, you should be more bold in saying, hey, I actually don't think that I'm going to attend this meeting. And people honestly are understanding.

They kind of submit to it if you're bold and you kind of push it a little bit. All right, thanks. And yeah, that's a great experiment where if somebody asks, can I cut in line to use the copier? And if they just said, because need to use the copier, then that was more compelling than if they just said, can I cut in line? So sometimes just even a reason, if it doesn't make sense, obviously as a PM, you want to use reasons that make sense and align to the vision of the company.

Jeff Shulman

But yes, great callback. My question for you though, and kema, all these great advice, and we've got this elevate program, which is for product managers who want to elevate their careers, can get help from executives in residents and get help from people who've done it before. But where did you get help? Where did you figure out all of these things that helped you be successful? Yeah.

Where did you learn what to do? Who helped you? I'm a consistent reader. I just consume all types of media on product, all types of books, just podcasts. And not just product management podcasts.

C

I absorb anything, business, economy, human interaction, psychology. You saw me reference Robert Cialdini's book influence. I read a ton on different topics. And it's the melding of all of these different resources that I bring together that actually helps me get better at being a PM here. Now what I will say is that it's always good to have a mentor.

So when I first started, know, when I first started out in being a PM, it's when agile was getting really hot. So I went through that training and everything like that. So that was cool. But honestly, outside of training. There's no better way to learn than to just do it.

And I took baby steps as far as different experiments. And when I would read a book, I'd say, hey, let me try that in my job and actually learn that. So a lot of it was learning on the job and figuring that out and just accumulating that influence. Now, as I progressed in my career, I did get managers who were more experienced as well. So I do have some that I see as mentors and I'll hearken back and just hit them up and say, hey, I have this problem and we'll chat about it.

So I would say it's probably like 80% my own self motivation and seeking education to further myself and then 20% talking to various good product leaders out there. What's after group product manager for you and your aspirations? And what do you do now to set yourself up for that? Oh, man. It's funny because one of our execs actually literally asked me this question at our last conference.

We had a happy hour for some of our customers and he's like, hey, what's next after Greenhouse? I told him straight up that I actually think that greenhouse will be my last stop before I go ahead and do my own thing. My goal has always been to be a serial entrepreneur. I got a crazy amount of ideas and things that have been semi validated. I'm like, all right, this is something that I can actually work on, but what I'm trying to do because now I have a family, wife, kids and all that is make sure that they're okay and I can take confidence in this step out in being an entrepreneur.

So I actually think that do my time at greenhouse and give it my best swing. And I love the team, actually, and really learn from them and the experiences there and take that on to doing my own thing in some way, shape or form. So I actually think that is what's next for me. So I have to try to get this a quick answer if I could, and maybe it's too ambitious, but what is it that product manager and group product manager doesn't have that an entrepreneur and having their own company? Like, what is it that you are missing?

Jeff Shulman

Because I know some of our listeners are thinking about going into product, thinking about working at a startup, thinking about founding their own thing. And I'm just curious your perspective on if you go into product, you have this, but you might be missing out on something that you're looking for. So when you say missing, is it like a skill set missing or missing as far as my ambitions, it's an. Open ended question, but I think I'm leaning more towards what is it that you're seeing from building your own thing that you don't get to do as a product manager? Yeah, it's ego.

C

I've always said that. So the thing is, I've worked in a ton of startups now, right? I've mentored a bunch of startups and this is 100% no shade to the people that I've worked with because they're fantastic people, but from actually working with them, I have no impostor syndrome anymore. I understand that there is no difference between me and you other than you took the chance. Right.

So I say, if they could do it, why can't I do it? And that's it. Love it. Thanks for the candor there, because you just never know who's thinking about these things and what they're curious about. And I appreciate you sharing your perspective.

Jeff Shulman

Just to wrap up any bullet point takeaways you want to leave the audience with as it relates to the transition from product manager to group product manager. Yeah. Work hard. So the graph scene that I talked about is very real. It is not easy to make the transition.

Nkem Nwankwo

Right. Because if you think about it, there's only a certain amount of engineers that you have on a team. Let's say five to six engineers, right. There's going to be 01:00 p.m.. Right.

C

So there's already way fewer PMs than engineers and then there's even fewer managers of PMs than PMs. Right. So that position is going to be very hard to actually come by. Right. So I just want to reiterate again, if there is no reason for you to get promoted to a group product manager, they're not going to promote you even no matter how good you are.

So you have to go where there actually is opportunity there. And when you get there within the first 90 days, I don't care what it is, hit the ground running and just crush everything in sight, and then they will have no choice but to actually put you there. Right. So that's my biggest piece of advice there. You actually have to have, quote unquote, the total addressable market.

The market has to be there for you to actually get into that position. You can't just will it if there's no business opportunity there. So, yeah, that's the one thing that I want to drive home. Really appreciate that. And then, kem, I appreciate this whole conversation.

Jeff Shulman

Really appreciate know you've disciplined about your calendar and yet you put this on your calendar to share with everybody here today and everybody listening on the how to succeed in product management podcast. And I think this is an inspiration. I always like to call this out to our audience that you have done something that somebody else wants to do, and demystifying that and giving back your time and your expertise and being open and sharing your stories can really change somebody's life. I'm confident that, and, kem, you're going to change somebody's life here, either on the podcast or in this audience. And I hope the people in this audience will do the same, either through the product management center at the University of Washington or in your own way, reach back, share your story, and lift others up around you.

So thank you for doing that. And no, we won't be here next week or the following week, but we'll be back soon to record another episode of the how to succeed in product management podcast. Thank you, Nkam, and thank you, everybody for listening.