What's Wrong with Writing Education? | Ana Lorena Fabrega

Ana Fabrega

The biggest thing I learned was how to unlearn, you know, how to write the way I had been taught. I remember it was your very first article. What was it called? Like, I was a teacher. I loved it.

I quit. And that's actually the intro of my book. I've come across a lot of damaged writers, which are people that are. They have writing trauma. They have writing trauma.

Writing is one of the most challenging things in the world, yet one of the most rewarding. Yeah. If you only write what other people tell you to write, then you're not gonna enjoy writing. And if you don't enjoy writing, you're not gonna be good at it. I think the crazy lesson is.

David Perell

Ana David, how in the world did you get here? This is so crazy. We met in 2019, and we have been through an absolute odyssey together for so many years, and I wanna start off with that question. How in the world did we get here? I had to really ask myself this question before coming here because, you know, if I had asked my twelve year old self, little Anna, you know, what do you think you'll be in 20 years?

Ana Fabrega

The last thing she would have said is sitting here in Austin talking to David, the self proclaimed writing guy, talking about my writing process and a book that I published. Like, she would have never believed that because, you know, growing up, I had sort of. I moved around a lot, and I went to different schools, and I did different things. But one thing that I, you know, I really did not like writing. I did not consider myself writing.

I found it really challenging. I did not like it. I did not enjoy it. I then became a teacher, and I had to teach writing as one of the subjects, and it was the subject that I looked forward the least. Right?

And it was really challenging. And it was very common to see the same attitude in my students. And so I really had to think about, well, how did this even happen? How am I here? And I realized that I had to go through this journey of unlearning a lot of the things that I've been learning since I was born, all the way to college.

And now in order to be able to be a writer and specifically on learning things about writing, I was an educator for many years, and I was very unhappy within the system. I loved working with kids. I knew that that was the profession I wanted to be in, but I just couldn't do it without the system. And there were many things that just did not match what I believed in. I had all this experience of having myself attended ten different schools, and then I had all these years working with kids, so I had so many things that I wanted to say and had this, like, burning questions that I wanted to answer, but no idea how to do that.

And so when I left the school system, I started to sort of, like, wonder and say, well, what do I do with all this? Where do I take this ideas? Where do I start? And I came across this writing guy online, David. And you were talking about this writing course that would teach you how to write for modern times, and it promised to help you build an audience and sort of help you rethink the way that you thought about writing.

And I was like, well, this sounds interesting. It sounds sort of like where I need to go, but I'm not a writer. What? No, this sounds too challenging and very intimidating. I don't think I can do this.

And I don't know if you remember, but I actually booked the course. Then you asked for a refund, and. Then I asked for a refund because I got cold. I was like, what am I thinking? I'm not a writer writing.

Like, I'm not gonna. Like, why would I invest and try to commit to something I'm not gonna stick through? My husband convinced me to stay around while it was a mix of you and my husband and people going. And I'm so glad I did, because the biggest thing I learned from this course was how to unlearn how to write the way I had been taught. And then it sort of, when I was reflecting about this, I came down to, like, seven sort of core lessons that I had to unlearn that I think that I really wish more kids would hear this and would sort of see writing through this new lens that I see now, because we would have a lot more writers.

David Perell

So let's play a game. So we're hanging out right now, and we're going to go to lunch, and you have 20 minutes to go on your computer. You can phone a friend, and by the end of the lunch, you need to have a good idea. So what do you look up on the computer? What is that conversation?

Like? Who do you call? And then how do you set up the lunch so that you end up with an idea? Interesting. So.

Ana Fabrega

So I would probably go to my Evernote, but I don't know if that's part of it. But the first thing that I would do is go back to my Evernote, because I do have, like, a bunch of ideas that I'm like, oh, eventually I want to write about this, or, oh, this is super interesting, but I need to learn more about this, or I need to sort of, like. So I would go into my Evernote and kind of see. And what do you search? Which.

Well, I have all the. I still have my cold notebooks. My hot notebooks. And so I would go into one. Yes.

And I would go into one of those and see sort of which one. I'm excited because, by the way, it changes by day. Like, I need to see what I'm excited to write about, which is a big one. You know, in school, you don't get to. It's like, unless you're excited about the topic your teacher chose, like, you're kind of screwed here.

It's like, okay, what am I, like, excited today about? Oh, this one. Okay. Who do I know that I can connect to this, that I can call right now, that I can have a conversation about this and sort of, like, get this fresh perspective? Because I know what I know.

Right. But if I through this phone call, I'll collect some new insights and new perspective, probably take a few notes while I have this call. I would then probably collect information from others, from podcasts or from books that I'm reading or from people that are experts in the field or that know a little bit more about this. And then those little holes that I still have, then I'll sort of, like, fill in with research. But I need to time bucket it, because otherwise, again, I'll just go down the rabbit hole.

So I'll try not to spend that much time in the computer after that hour and a half. I usually wouldn't half wish that something that I was really proud of, but it's a first draft, and so I do think that that kind of pressure is good. So, yeah, hopefully get some structure from our lunch. What's interesting about what you just said is that your content doesn't all need to be original. You don't need every single thing to be this completely new idea that no one's ever thought of before.

David Perell

So tell me about the lesson that you had to unlearn there. That was a big one, because one of the biggest blockers for me as a writer and one of the biggest blockers for kids when they're trying to write something is that we tell them, oh, in order to write something, you need to be an expert. So pick a topic that you're an expert on that's paralyzing, especially when you're a kid. When you're a kid, you're like. I mean, you either believe that you know about everything in the world and that you're an expert about everything until you sit down and write about it, or you're, like, paralyzed because you're like, wait, I'm a kid.

Ana Fabrega

I don't know what I'm an expert on. And so it's intimidating, right? And you actually made, I think it was a podcast you did years ago, like, five years ago, where you said, no, writing is the way that you become, that you learned about the thing that you then become an expert on. And I was like, stop. Wow.

Like, if you approach writing through that light of, oh, this is the process that will help me learn about that thing that I'll then become really good at or I'll learn a lot about, it's completely different. It's less intimidating, it's less scary. And you're like, I can totally do this, right? And so that's one thing. Like, just reframing it through that lens was like, wow, I can do this.

Like, I'm going to learn. I don't need to be an expert yet. And then the other thing is, writing doesn't always have to be original from the bat. Like, actually, a lot of modern writing is grabbing existing ideas and then building on top of that and then sort of, like, until you construct your own perspective. Right.

So you need to sort of pull and get inspired. That's how you get inspiration from, like, great writers. And actually, this is something that a lot of good writers do. Right. But we don't talk enough about that in school.

We're like, no, no, you need to come up with something original. And we talk about, you know, plagiarism and da da da. And of course, it's super important to give credit where credit is due. However, it's totally okay to, like, you know, I, like, said that you curate and then you remix until you find something, you know, creative way to do to say things. And I think that a lot of my work is from that.

People are like, oh, you came up with this? I'm like, I'm not coming up with absolutely anything. I'm building upon the ideas of this giants in the alternative education space, ideas that have been around for so, so many years. I'm just sort of bringing them back with my flair, adding my experience from being a student in ten schools and then being a teacher for five to six years and then everything I've learned about how kids learn and how we learn and what motivates us and all this and how we prepare kids for the future. And then that is sort of like my creative twist.

And I say it in a way that's appealing and interesting to people. So it's not necessarily like original from the bat, but of course it has my touch. And when you look at it like that, I feel like it opens up the space for more people to want to write because they're like, oh, I can do that. You know, it's about finding your voice and it doesn't come from one day to another. Remember how many times I had to like update my personal monopoly and those things that made me unique, which is such a fun process and.

Yeah, until eventually you find sort of your voice as a writer and what makes your writing unique and sort of the lens that you want to take and you become really comfortable at it and then that's what you do. You do need to keep updating it, but yeah, yeah. So I want to talk about two things here. The first is pulling from other people, other ideas, things in the world that are concrete, made by other people, and then we'll talk about that. And then I want to talk about pulling from your own experiences.

David Perell

So start off with other people. I think that this is something that we can encourage kids to do, which would be, it'd be really fun to basically have a weekend project and you go out and you write about something that you did, maybe a movie that you watched, a tv show that you saw. Hey, I really like this tv show, so I'm going to just make this up on the fly. There's this show that I really liked growing up called the Sweet Life of Zack and Cody. It was on Disney's channel, watched it a thousand times.

And there's a great episode that really stuck with me. And Zach and Cody are allowed to do whatever they want and there's no homework, there's no school, nothing organized. They can do nothing but have fun. And the mom goes from being like the strict mom to being the cool mom and she like starts being like rock star and stuff like that. And it's an interesting episode because they start off and they're so happy they're getting to do all these things like rollerblading through the hotel lobby and then at the end of the episode they're totally miserable.

They've had candy and mom's not there for them. And there's this line where Zach, who's normally like the crazy, you know, mess around boy, he goes, it turns out that having nothing but fun isnt actually so much fun. I was like twelve years old and it really stuck with me. So now if Im twelve years old, Im in what, 6th grade, 7th grade, and I can come in on Monday and I can build on that quote on that idea, and I can write about whatever I want. And I would love to just give kids an assignment where they can just pull these different things from their life, blend them together and say, okay, now that you have all these things, what is the synthesis of these things that then you can write about?

Ana Fabrega

Yeah, well, we attempt to do that in school. A lot of the writing curriculums, and I've used many different ones throughout my life attempt to do that. But, so it sounds really nice in theory, but when you actually put it to practice because of the constraints that we've sort of talked about, it's really difficult. You know, the fact that, you know, we, they're asked to be focused on so many different subjects. Writing is like 45 minutes a day or, you know, maybe you have a little bit longer block, but then this is an assignment that needs to be completed by Friday.

Friday is not enough time for them to again let this ideas marinate and grab from different places and really think about these things when they have so many things going on. So, like, when you actually try, like, I remember when I was going through the course, it was like a full time job. Like, it's the only thing that I was doing. I was only writing. I mean, not only writing, but I was only going through this process, which meant being outside, capturing ideas, letting things marinate, talking, like writing, all this, it, like completely immersed in the experience for those.

I think it was like five weeks back then. And so I think that that was a big reason why I was able to, you know, start everything. And then eventually it ended up being a book, et cetera. Kids don't have that time, right? And everything's so rushed and interrupted and this and that.

When you put it into practice again, kids are filled with ideas. But if you talk to a twelve year old and you're like, okay, tell me about an idea you're excited to write about. And we actually tried this in summer camp. Like, they're paralyzed. They're like, I don't know.

I don't know what I like. Like, I don't know what I, you know, and it's so interesting because we're always, like, going back to this idea of, like, you know, originality and this and that. How can we expect for kids to be original and come up with novel ideas and, you know, find their voice and their edge as a writer and all these things, if they're all reading the same thing, that they're probably not interested in but it's like a required reading, and therefore, you know, learning about the same things and talking about the same things, and therefore they're thinking about the same thing. So how do you expect for somebody there to come up with something that's completely original? Like, it's really difficult, you know what I mean?

And so you almost have to. That's why I love, like, this idea of being outside of the classroom and being with older people and being with younger people and doing other things that are not necessarily, like, writing. And then you start pulling from all those things, and it eventually comes together, and then they can write about it. Right. So it's like a very different experience.

So that's why I think, like, the whole way we do writing in school has to be, like, revamped and rethought from scratch because it's really difficult to come up with anything and be excited and be creative under those conditions. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. So tell me about when you're writing your book, when you're writing your pieces, how you think about pulling from other people's ideas and how being freed from the shackles of needing to be original, how now that you've had some liberty, you've been able to write. I love that question.

Okay, so at first, when I joined the course, I was like, okay, I want to. I want to talk about education. I have all these ideas, but how is my writing going to be different from, you know, every time I had an idea, I would google it and somebody, some teacher, some educator around the world had written an article or a book or a sloppy blog post or something, and I was like, like, like, okay, I understand that not everything has to be original, but, like, what's my flare? What's my. Yes.

So I was like, you know what? I need to stop reading books about education. Like, I've learned my fair share, but I feel like I've already got, like. And I need to start reflecting and tapping into my experience and reading about things that I am interested in without an agenda, you know? So just what am I curious about right now?

And I would start grabbing books that I had, like, about, you know, finance and business and poker and, you know, like, learning about mental models and things that I had never, you know, and that I would, you know, probably be intimidated back then, but I was like, I have no assignment that I have to complete at the end of this book. I can stop reading it halfway through if I. If I don't feel like I want to keep reading it. And I gave myself all these different sort of permissions to just, you know, go where my curiosity would take me. And so I started to read books, and because I'm so obsessed with this topic about education and I really want to change the way that we teach and learn, it's always in the back of my mind.

So when I was reading, it's a book about sports, I was always looking for connections that would bring it back to education. And I was able to always sort of make that connection between that and kids. And what does this mean for? And I feel like that really brought an angle to my writing because it not only made it relatable for a lot of people because I was weaving in concepts from, you know, gaming and from economics and from psychology and from the sports world, but then blending it in a way that connected to either your experience growing up and going through education and your learning experience or your kids going through it, or just, you know, the act of learning itself and kids. And it became interesting.

Right? And then the other thing paired up with that that really helped me was that. And it's another lesson that I really had to unlearn in school. They incentivize you to write with this, like, big jargons and fancy words and sat words and, you know, verbose and this and that and say it in ten pages. And that's what I had in mind.

And when I took your course, it really helped me, like, wait, no, you want to be simple. You want strive for simplicity and clarity and, you know, conciseness and just accessibility. And you don't use big, fancy terms that I didn't even understand. Like, English is not my first language. So you can imagine I was, like, trying to imitate all these people using big fancy.

I was like, no, stop doing that. Try to be simple. Try to speak like you speak to your students. Like, try to do that. And let's see.

And people started to really resonate with that because not only could they find something in the content because I was pulling from different things, but also because I feel like I started valuing simplicity and accessibility, and therefore I feel like the reader would feel more valued as well. I don't know. And then that paired up with, from the very beginning, I would always try to put, like, visuals, some visual that made sense to me. I wasn't sure if it made sense to other people, but something about pairing up the words with some sort of visual, like that I had in my mind that represented that. Like, that helped me engage with the writing.

And I started to see that people would also engage with that. So I feel like that started to sort of bring people's eyeballs and saying, okay. And also the fact that, you know, the way that I say things, it's sometimes a little controversial. And some people are like, yes. Oh, my God.

She just said what I've been thinking for so long. But I had not quite, like, put it into words. And some people are like, wait, what? Like, they feel threatened by whatever it is that I'm saying because it's challenging the way they do things. Either way, I'm happy because that's exactly what I try to do with my writing.

I try for it to sort of cause an impression so that it forces you to reflect on the way that you've been doing things, whether that's for the good or for the bad. But just if I'm able to do that, then I feel accomplished. And so I feel like when I started to do that, I got even more excited because I'm like, oh, my writing's very different from other pieces out there, education wise. And so I think that that's sort of the path that I decided to follow for those years that I was sending the newsletter and those articles, but then ended up becoming the book. One of the places where I think you do a really good job in your book of building on an idea is with Nuval's specific knowledge.

David Perell

So you're saying, how do we help kids find their specific knowledge? And you build on that idea. You use the idea. It's already constructed. And then you say, okay, I know that there's oil here, so I'm going to do some digging of my own.

And then you come across this example from doctor House, and you're like, he has a knack for understanding human behavior. He has this compulsion to solve puzzles, to explain the world. And then he's super comfortable taking a risk and just being like, yep, we're just going to go for it. And that is a great example of what we're talking about here, where you have an idea, it resonates with you. You're like, hey, I like this.

And then you start making some cross references. You probably watched it on Fox. You know, when I was a kid, it was like the guy with the cane, you know, who is this guy? Sort of reminds me of my uncle. And so then you would bring that together, and then you would add something by taking an idea that wasn't about education and kids at all and then banging the ideas together, and then it makes it into your book.

Ana Fabrega

Absolutely. Absolutely. That's a great example. Well, also, it was a process that I had to go through myself, like, finding what's my specific knowledge and that intersection of things that make me, you know, excited about doing something but also very unique and good at it and that I can make a living out of it. And so I feel like that exercise, and again, it took years to sort of, like, bring it, and it's still changing and it's still sort of evolving.

But I feel like that's. That's a really important exercise to do when you are thinking about writing the way that, you know, the way that we do it. Right. And so that really helps bring that edge and that, you know, nichey to your writing. Yeah.

David Perell

One of the things that you were talking about earlier was how you got more comfortable telling your story. And this is a lot of what, when I'm working with people, I have to help them elucidate and bring out is they're like, well, there's nothing actually that unique about me. I got nothing to say. There's all these smart people out there, and we're like, with you, we're like, hold on. Stop the train.

You went to ten different schools in seven different countries. That is crazy. Then you were a teacher in public schools in America and in Panama. You loved kids, you loved learning, and you also hated the work of actually being a teacher. So then you quit.

And I remember it was your very first article. What was it called? Like, I was a teacher. I loved it. I quit.

I quit. And that's actually. Yeah, that's the first sort of the intro of my book. Yeah. You had to learn to become comfortable telling your story and to develop the muscle of teasing out the insights that you subconsciously learned.

Ana Fabrega

You know what? That made me realize that good writing is a lot of good storytelling. And kids are natural storytellers. You know, from the moment they're born, they're, like, trying to imitate, you know, like, different characters from stories that the books. Books that they read or, you know, movies that they watch.

And if you watch them play, they're. They're constantly sort of, like, telling you a story through what they're doing. And so. But when we go into this, again, this system where suddenly things are enforced in you, there's so many different parameters, you no longer get to sort of follow that natural curiosity that you have, et cetera. You start to lose that ability to tell stories and learn from stories and this and that.

And that's something that I've had to sort of recapture as an adult in order to I remember you always telling me, like, Anna, but you have so many stories from your classroom, like, why aren't you writing about those? And I was like, you're right. I was so inclined to do what I've always done. What's the research? And what's this?

And what's blah, blah, blah? And it's like, no, no, that's. People don't remember the facts and the figures. They remember the stories. I did the same thing.

David Perell

I was scared. I didn't actually trust my ideas. And what would happen is, in my early pieces, I swear, like, 20% to 30% of what I was writing was quotes. And that's fine. That's a good way to start.

I almost think of quotes as, like, training wheels for the writing process. They're there to sort of catch you if you fall. You're not quite confident, so you can balance on the bike. But you know what? You're going to have your quotes there.

You can sort of lean on the quotes whenever you need to, but then over time, you kind of learn how to ride the bike. You're like, wait, I don't really need these training wheels. Totally, totally. And you also need to sort of experiment with different things in writing to see sort of which ones you feel more comfortable with. And then those keep evolving over time.

Ana Fabrega

Yeah, for sure. Tell me about John Warner and the book why they can't write. Loved that book. I think that it came at a right time in my life when I had all, you know, I was leaving the school system. I had all these pressing questions about education.

And he wrote this book where he's criticizing sort of this, like, five paragraph essay approach to writing. But in the book, he's really doing a solid critique of our education system through writing. Right. And, you know, using writing is an example of why kids can't write and hate writing. But really, he will touch upon a lot of those things that I was feeling and that I had experienced as a student and then witnessed as a teacher.

He was able to put that into words and to start sort of making me think, oh, wait, maybe there's a different way to teach writing, and maybe, you know, but. But one thing is to read about it. So he would. He talks in the book how he would teach his students and how he did things different. I was like, oh, but I.

Another thing was for me to experience it my own, which is something that, again, I think is very, very hard to do in school. Like, a lot of the things that we do lack practical application. And so you can read about it and learn about it, but if you don't do it yourself. Have you ever heard that chauffeur knowledge thing? No.

David Perell

Okay. This is a. I don't know if it's true or parable, but as the story goes, there's a scientist named, I think, max Planck. And he would travel around the world, and he would give these talks at big events. And whenever he would go to the talks, he had a chauffeur, a guy who drove him.

So the chauffeur would drive him, and he'd always be in the back of the room, and he would listen to the talks. And they did ten talks, 20 talks, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 talks. Right? So all of a sudden, the chauffeur is like, I feel like I can give the talk for you. And he goes, okay, we'll see how it goes.

And so he tries. And they go out to lunch or something, and he gives the talk, but then he does the talk well, and then he starts being asked follow up questions. He starts being asked questions about this or that, and he has none of the root knowledge that Max Planck had, the scientists had when he was giving the talk. And I think that this gets back into what you're talking about. That part of the problem with how we learn things in school is we develop this chauffeur knowledge, where you have a memorization of what was said without the root structure to really understand what's going on.

And we underestimate how deep these root structures are, even in our own writing, where we'll have, like, an idea here, an idea there, and what's so helpful, to go back to your point about writing is social, to have other people say, hey, tell me more about that. Hey, that doesn't quite make sense. Hey, I'm a little bit confused about this. Can you help me? And it's through that process of questioning and answering that you begin to see how contoured and multifaceted your root structure is, which then yields even more ideas.

Ana Fabrega

Absolutely. Which. Yeah, I mean, it speaks to how much writing is like thinking. Right? And actually, John Warren from the book why they can't write, he says, you know, writing is thinking, and I have yet to meet a writer who thinks in sentences, which is what we teach in school.

He's like, you know, this idea that you need to master a sentence before you start writing is not true. It's simply a lie. Right? And it's true. It's like, the hardest thing is getting those ideas across.

Right? You have those ideas, like, the hardest thing is putting them into that paper and sort of like, what are you trying to say? Right. And that process really gets lost with all these external factors that we're trying to make people concentrate on that, you know, again, like, you need to be focusing on what you're trying to say and getting it out, and then you'll be able to cover the rest. So what you're saying is that the core problem is that we focus on sentences instead of ideas.

Well, sentences is one example, but, like, yeah, like the sentence structure and, you know, on the adverb and this and that and, like, the capital and the punctuation, like all this, like, okay. Oh, you have to do it, you know, a five paragraph essay, and you have to have your main idea and then your supporting points. And then for some people, this works. For other people, it's completely paralyzing, and it blocks that idea that they had. They can't just put it across because they're thinking about the structure.

David Perell

So I thought of an idea. It'd be fun to have a software that grades how accurate your grammar is. And normally you'd be like, okay, we're going to use the software to get to 100. But what if you said you have to be at 23, 23%, and then you said you're going to write with 23% grammar and you still have to put something out there? So what does that force you to do?

It forces you to come up with an amazing idea, and you basically, you work with the kids, and you're like, for this time, there's no rules for grammar. You can do whatever you want. Have you ever seen Kanye West's instagram captions? No. They don't make any sense.

There's no grammar. There's no grammar. He just wings it. There's no periods. He's just, like, trying, whatever.

But what I like about that is it forces you to have a good idea because you have nothing else to lean on, actually. In fact, everything else is hurting you, and it forces you to say something worthy despite the grammar. It becomes a constraint. Yeah. And then you.

Ana Fabrega

Oh, that's. And then the kids can, like, mess around with, like, oh, my goodness, that's so funny because that, to me, if you're hanging out with kids and whatnot, like, the thing that gets them, their ideas going, they're brain spinning is, oh, my goodness, that's so funny. And they're giggling and they're laughing and they're playing. It was sort of like when you had a substitute teacher and come in substitute. You can do that and I wonder what it would look like to take that energy and apply it to writing.

That. That sounds like a cool experiment to try. It made me think of one of the students that I had. So I would see how frustrated most of my students would get with the spelling test that we would do, which is so dumb. I mean, they will pick up on how to spell the words from reading, from writing the words over again.

We will correct them, but we don't need to do spelling tests where they have to memorize all these words in isolation, that they have five days, and on Friday, they take the spelling test, and then you have them write an essay, and they'll misspell the word in the essay because they don't know the words in context. So, anyway, I'm against spelling tests, but. And I would see how some of my kids were so creative and to come to mind Emma and Maya, but they were. This was third grade. They were just so paralyzed by the whole spelling thing.

I need to spell the word correctly, and I'm not good at spelling, and I always get, like, this, lower grades and the spelling this and that. But they had great ideas, so I was like, you know what? Like, don't worry about the spelling. Like, just write what you want to write. They would come up with this phenomenal stories, and I had a sort of a hard time reading them because, yes, some words were inverted.

Some. But when I figured it out, the ideas and the storyline was genius. Was so creative. And their parents, though, had a hard time seeing that because they were so ingrained in the fact that the spelling was a mess. They were like, how are you applauding this?

And you know what? I realized that those parents are probably damaged writers, and it's not their fault. But I've come across a lot of damaged writers, which are people that are so stuck in the spelling and this and that that they can't see what's. Underneath, that they have writing trauma. They have writing trauma.

And there's so many adults like that. So many adults, so many people that say that they hate writing and they can't write. I'm pretty sure they have similar stories to mine, which is like, they just. They're damaged writers that for so many years, they were focusing on the wrong thing. And so it just really made me realize what would happen if you remove those things and then.

And then they will come later on. I'm not saying that they're not important at all, but you can course correct that along the way. But the idea is the most important that's what we're lacking. That's what's not going to get replaced by AI and by technology. Right.

So that's what we should be fostering and cultivating and doing everything to preserve that. You know, there's so many things from your book that are just, your book is just beautiful. And I can see you in the design of the book, you know, in the yellow, on the COVID in these big yellow pages, in a lot of the drawings. And I want to hear about, how did you go about working on these drawings, thinking through the design, some of the fight that you had to do with book publishers? Tell me about that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think it comes, like, I've always been drawn to colors and the aesthetics of things and sort of visuals that helped me. And I think it's because growing up, I would have to move around and I had to. Oftentimes I didn't speak the language, and so I had to rely on different things that would help me until I, you know, learned the language. And one of those was visuals.

Like I've always loved, you know, a visual. So, for example, the, the COVID of the book was really important to me because I wanted to be able to showcase the essence of my book through one image. You know, so somebody that doesn't know who I am that, you know, hasn't read the title, but they look at the image and they're like, wait. Oh, that's tic tac toe. But that's not the way you win.

Oh, is this about cheating? No. Or is this about doing things differently? Or maybe there's a different way. So for me, I spend a lot of time thinking about these things.

And I remember, like, when I would learn in school and all the things, like when I try to, I always draw and do my doodles and sort of, like, pair words with images. And so I thought, you know, this has to be part of the book. And I was very lucky to work with somebody that I really admire. His name is Yannis Osolin, who I had seen on Twitter. He would grab ideas from, you know, all these thinkers, and he was able to portray them through a very good visual.

And he was like, I would love to work with you and bring some of your ideas to life. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Yeah. So I gave him room to get inspired, and so I told him, read the book and then tell me, what are the things that you're excited to sort of, like, bring to life? And I think that that was key to letting him do his thing like, I really respect the creative process of, like, different people, and that's your talent, so I want to see what.

And then he came up with, like, all these, you know, things that he was so excited because he really resonated with the book and the story, and he has four kids, and so he was like, you know, this is something really deep in my heart that I want to be part of this. And so I think that inspired him also to just, he did such a phenomenal job illustrating this concept to the point where you open a page and sometimes you don't get it from the mean. Like, you don't get the meaning from what I wrote. You actually get it from the visual. So it's so powerful.

Every visual was very carefully selected, and then I was like, okay, now there are these other concepts that you didn't touch upon that I would love for you to try to, you know, and there were different drafts. Like, he'll come up with something, and I'm like, you know, oh, actually, no, I don't see it that way. Let's do it this way. And so I think we spent a lot of time doing that, and I think that that's one of the things that people really like about the book that they can really get, you know, a lot from. From those visuals and from, you know, sort of, like, the essence of the book.

And they like to gift the book because it's like a beautiful kind of, like, thing to give to somebody else. And so, yeah, when I was writing the book, I remember thinking, I don't want to have one extra word. And that was really hard. And I remember, you know, I had, like, multiple editors, including you, including my husband, who was probably the best editor. And he was like, sometimes I was like, no, like, this paragraph.

And he's like, Anna, it's really not adding anything. And I was like, okay, so it has to go. So I really made it a point to try to be a succinct and simple and straightforward, yet, you know, captivating. And I wanted to make it simple. Like, I didn't want to do a long book.

I feel like a lot of books could have been articles, which is why you sort of, like, dropped them halfway through. And it's like, I don't want that. I really don't want that. And because I started, I didn't write this book like, like a normal book where you like, oh, I'm gonna write a book, so I'm starting from scratch. No, I totally started from abundance.

Right? I went back to, like, all these newsletters that I had already written about, and I was like, which ones are, like, the core of my message? What am I trying to communicate? Which ones really resonated with people and they want it more? And they were like, tell me more.

Can I can expand on those? Or which ones can I combine? Because they're common themes. And it was a real fun process to do that, to sort of, like, put all my writing out there and then see, like, how can I put this into a table of contents that has a storyline that covers the things I want to cover, and then I'll write those extra chapters or combine. Like, it was really fun.

And so when I was doing that, paired up with the visuals and, you know, just having people's and. But I thought, I don't know, I thought it was, like, a very me way of bringing all these ideas to life. So I wanted for it to be practical. So that's why you see that every chapter ends with something, like, sweet, like some nothing elaborated, nothing too hard, because I want it for it to be something that parents can do right away and then try and see what works for them. Right.

And, yeah, just sort of start planting that little seed and this idea so they can then come back to and. Refer to in your entire time writing this thing. What was the moment that you were the most miserable and hated writing the most? Oh, my God, that's so great. You gotta tell me.

Okay, so remember that I was pregnant when I was doing this. So, I mean, there was a lot going on. Emotionally hormonal. Like, I was already sort of, like, all over the place, right? So add that little layer of complexity.

But the hardest thing was when I opened it up for feedback, because I had a lot of fun sort of selecting which were the pieces and putting together that table of content and seeing it, I was like, oh, my God, yes, I have this storyline. And then I was very selective about the people that I invited to sort of, like, look at that master document and start giving me. And I. And I said, I would love for you to go in. I selected, like, six people.

Read it, which is a short read, which. That was good. And then just give me your feedback. And then I realized, oh, my God. I started to get this feedback left and right about things, and then I felt like I had to change the whole thing because everybody would tell me something different.

And I was like, hold on. No, this is not productive. I need to change my strategy. And so I heard somewhere, I don't know if it was Seth Godin or that said, no, you need to give, you need to think about the people you want editing your book, and then you need to give them a specific kind of feedback that you want for them to give me. For you, it was like, high level, sort of, you know, tell me if I need more stories here.

Tell me what's interesting, what's sort of like, like, that's, you know, for Fernando, my husband, I was like, no, no, I want you to go needy, greedy, like, cut words and sentences and, like, the grammar and, like, like, I want you to go there. Yeah. You're like, I know where you live. Yes, I know where you live. I know where I can find you.

Exactly. Exactly. And so for Sylvia, who's this friend that I really look up to, and she's been helping me a lot with, like, since the very beginnings of Miss Fab. She lives in London. She's a childhood friend from, from when I lived in Brazil.

She was giving me more like she was playing devil's advocate. I was like, I want you to read this. And, you know, it's very easy to fall. Like, I'm full of biases, which I'm constantly trying to battle against. But of course, I'm so passionate about this thing that sometimes I have a hard time seeing the other side of it.

And there's some really good arguments to be made on the other side. And so I was like, you play. You already know what my stance is. You already know what I advocate for, because you've been with me. I want you to play the devil's advocate.

I want you to make me hate you because you're criticizing, you know the thing that's great. I want you to make me hate you. Yeah. I actually really like things that are like that, where you create the conditions for somebody to be mean and discerning and be like, no, that's not good enough. And by saying that explicitly, they feel the freedom to, to do it, and there's not animosity, whereas if you don't do that explicitly either, you haven't said it.

David Perell

So she's going to come back at you with something super harsh and be like, Sylvia, I. Or on the other side, she'd be like, but I love Anna, so I either need to prioritize my friendship or the work, and that puts somebody in a really difficult position, which is why. I chose Sylvia, because she knows me since we were ten. She's really smart. I really admire, I've always admired her for many reasons.

Ana Fabrega

She's been with me through the mishfapp journey since the pandemic when it all started. And she knows all the things I'm doing well, and I know she knows, and I know she really is a huge supporter. So I was like, you are the perfect person to. I'm not gonna, you know, to, like, help me find those holes and make me feel uncomfortable and make me. And see if I can debate this ideas that you're telling me, because that's.

That's a big thing, right? Like, I don't want for this to be one sided or, you know, so. So that was great feedback from her. Well, I got to. I got to write the foreword.

David Perell

I got to write the foreword. And that was. Yeah. And one of the things that's been really fun has been thinking through your personal monopoly and what it was that you were going to focus on. So in your first edition of Fab Fridays, you wrote, among other things, I'll be sharing what I'm learning and building my take on the latest research on education and powerful ideas from experts in ways that are easy to digest.

And I think that there's a few things there. The first thing is, it feels very stultified, and it feels like very much in your head. You know, you're talking about latest research, powerful ideas in ways that are easy to digest, but also that very much is what you ended up being inside of. So it's both right on the nose and also, like, sort of like, I wouldn't have expected Ana to write that doesn't sound like you. And I was looking back at the forward, and I wrote.

So much of what I read about education is dry and over intellectualized, but Ana's writing is unique. It's bubbly, imaginative, and informed by decades of experience. And I think that that speaks to a lot of how I feel that you've grown is you have such a colorful, vibrant personality. And there's a line from Miles Davis, the jazz musician, where he says, sometimes it takes a long time to be able to play like yourself. And I think it's the same thing with writing.

Sometimes it takes a long time to be able to write like yourself. We're talking about school. You learn how to write in this way that's rigid and sort of sclerotic, and you're trying really hard. You're sort of in your head and to just let the energy flow through you and to just release and surrender to your actual personality. Get that on the page.

That is so much of the work of writing. And it's interesting to see the change from fab Fridays to what I was able to write in your book. And can I just say that that's probably why, you know, when people ask me, and I'm not just saying this because we're here, you know, you're a dear friend to me, but when people ask me, like, who's been your favorite teacher, your most impactful teacher? And I'm like, ironically, it's somebody that's younger than me, somebody that I did not meet in these ten schools that I went to growing up or college. It's somebody that I met, you know, when I quit my job when I was an adult, you know, in an online course.

Ana Fabrega

And, you know, that's one of the reasons you were able to. Well, not only I think that a great teacher, like, you know, believes in you and your capability, challenges you and makes the right conditions to push you and bring the best out of you, and I think that you were able to truly help me find that Ana that I have inside and that playfulness and what makes me me in a way that no other teacher has done in my life. And so I'm really, really grateful. And you know that I admire you as a professional, as a friend. I adore you, but you really have been the teacher that has impacted me the most.

And I mean that when I say that. Thank you, of course.

David Perell

But it's falling down. I know, but this is truly, like, a very special podcast for me because. Because you've been such an instrumental part of my journey. So. So, yes.

Yeah. I think one of the things that I'm really, really, really passionate about when it comes to writing is when I see something in somebody that doesn't make it onto the page. And I love trying to figure out what is the thing that's blocking that person, and it happens all the time. I was talking to somebody who I think is gonna be a multi billionaire, and he's just like, well, I'm just not a good writer. Like, let me see if I have any ideas that I can write about.

I'm like, dude, you're so fearful and scared to just share what is naturally inside of you, and I want to free you from these chains that you're locked in right now. I have other people. I mean, this was you, right? Like, you were so bubbly and so energetic and struggling to get that on the page, like, for you. Also, so many ideas in your head that then you couldn't put into words and then structure and, like, trying to figure that out.

And it happens with all these sorts of people. Something about writing puts people in a timid fearful place. And it doesn't need to be like that. And I think that so much of my career and what we're trying to do at rite of passage is what are the strategies that we can use to actually get people to just be, like, the kids who are just playing around and laughing and goofing off again, you know? Totally.

Ana Fabrega

And you know what? I think that the reason why the work that you're doing is so important of helping people, you know, realize that they are writers and get these ideas out and everything is because maybe this doesn't mean that you're going to be an author and publish a book and be a writer. No, but what I realized about writing is that it really is the center of, if not all, most creative endeavors. Like, it all starts with writing. Right?

Like, right now, I've been for the past year exploring, not writing as much, but exploring sort of other mediums and exploring video, like, a lot more and doing podcasts and this and that. And the reason why I'm able to do it well and communicate the way, it's because it came from things that I've written about. Right. Or I've been exploring with, like, Instagram, which is a platform that I didn't really like. I love Twitter because it was about the ideas and I could write.

And Instagram, I thought, no, it's like pictures and, but I was like, no, I've been exploring with videos on Instagram where I'm able to talk about. And my whole point with the things that I do is I want to spread this ideas as far as I can around the world, whether it is writing or video or, but that's what I want to do. I want for as many people to listen to these things and reflect on them and then make whatever it is that works for them based on this ideas and reflections. And so because that's, you know, it starts from that. That's how you start asking questions and doing things differently.

And so I think that because, like, it all comes from the writing. And I, and, you know, some people are like, well, but I don't want to learn how to write because I don't want to be a writer. I'm not interested in that. And I'm like, no, but that's not, you don't, you don't have to be a writer. Like, you're going to become a better thinker.

You're going to become a better speaker. You're going to become, you know, more in touch with your emotions and be able to work through your emotions which is huge for kids. You know, it just. There's so much that comes from being able to really embrace this practice. And so I think that it's wonderful that you have this podcast.

Hopefully, it's going to inspire more people to, you know, tap into that damaged writer and. And see what comes out and learn from, you know, people that are doing. I'm not saying me, I'm saying, like, the other people you've interviewed, like, wonderful, wonderful. Thanks. Yeah, it is interesting, as you're saying, I was just playing around with different definitions for what is writing.

David Perell

So, one way to think about writing is writing is about transferring ideas from your head into somebody else's head. I was thinking about another definition of writing is a way to put words to the emotions and the feelings and the intuitions that you have that are inside your body. Put them into words and make them concrete. Another definition of writing is exploring where you have a little hunch and you're beginning to explore what is that hunch and beginning to sort of make sense of whatever intuition is going on. And I don't know.

It's just an interesting thing to ask, what is writing? Because in school, writing is certainly not, hey, let's go explore the thing you're most passionate about. Writing is certainly not, hey, let's have as much fun as we can learning how to communicate with other people. Writing is much more about something serious that I can't exactly find the words for right now. And you know what?

Ana Fabrega

Writing is also very therapeutic. I just thought of one thing that I did in my classroom that I had not quite talked about, but we had this, or maybe I've talked to you about it, but we had, like, a problem notebook in the classroom, because something that was very frustrating was like, we would come back from recess, and there were a few fights or a few things. And then all the kids needed miss fab to talk about an issue that they were sad or angry about. And I couldn't, like, sit with all of them at the same time. So what I started to do is, there's a problem notebook.

You get to get, you know, spend five minutes. There was a timer, open the notebook and a blank page, and it had, like, a clipper. So you can't go back to previous pages, let it all out, and then don't write your name. If you want for me to read it, you put it on my desk, and if you don't, you just pass the page, put the clipper, and that's it. What I started to find out is that for many kids, this urgent thing that they needed to talk to me about would go away after they wrote about it, and they were fine.

Like, this tantrum and this thing, once they, like, put it down in words, in paper, they would not, and then nobody would see that again because I wouldn't check them unless they gave it to me, and then they could continue with their date. And sometimes they did require, like, okay, there's a follow up. Miss Pep, I want to talk to you about this. So I started to be like, wow. Like, just putting the words into paper.

There's something so powerful about that and, like, therapeutic about that. And then there's this other example of, you know, I'm all, like I said, I go really fast. I tend to interrupt because I'm excited or because that's my personality, and that's something that I've been trying to work on since I was a kid. And so sometimes for somebody like my husband, that, like you said, it's the opposite. Sid, he can't get his ideas across, or we're having, like, you know, discussion, and I say everything I need to say, and he would often stay quiet.

And I thought, oh, he doesn't have anything to say. And he was like, no, no, you just make it really hard for me to put my point across because you're interrupting me. So he started writing me letters, and at the beginning, I was like, oh, my gosh, this is so serious. Like, is. This is.

And it wasn't anything bad. It was just. And it was so good for a relationship that we started communicating that way. And he was like, I incentivize you sometimes to think through these things and write about it and then talk to me about it. So he would send me letters, and I would really get to know his point of view just by sitting down and reading that.

And then I tried to do that as well. And sometimes I was like, no, this is not what I'm arguing about. This is not what's bothering me. But if we were just talking, it would have come across as completely different. So, anyway, writing is also, in addition to the things you said, a way to work through your emotions, and sometimes very therapeutic.

David Perell

Yeah. One of the things yesterday we were talking about, what does the boot camp that we run? What are the core things that we should focus on delivering? And this is something I always come back to, is, how can I make my communication as simple as possible? And the bigger the group, the simpler it needs to be.

Napoleon has a nice line about this. When he's talking about war, he's like, military directives need to be super simple. Think about being on the battlefield. Run, go, fight. It's not like, well, if we.

If we move our legs at approximately 17 points, like, yo, there's whatever coming your way. People are out to murder you. The directives need to be clear and simple. Yep, yep, yep. So writing improves thinking.

It's how it improves communication. Absolutely, absolutely. It makes you a better communicator, which, by the way, is one of the top. Top things that is required in the world that we live now. And people are always like, yeah, we need good communicators.

Ana Fabrega

We need people. Writing is the best way to become a good communicator. Thanks for doing this, Ana. Thank you so much for inviting me, David. This was so fun.

David Perell

This was so fun.

Ana Fabrega

This was so fun.

What's Wrong with Writing Education? | Ana Lorena Fabrega | How I Write Podcast

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Episode Summary

Main Takeaways

Episode Chapters

1: Introduction

2: The Problem with Writing Education

3: Unlearning to Learn

4: The Role of Teachers

5: Conclusion

Actionable Advice

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