I Was Wrong About Anti Semitism": Sheryl Sandberg on Waking Up

This episode delves into Sheryl Sandberg's personal and professional awakening regarding anti-Semitism and her efforts to address sexual violence used as a weapon of war.

1. Sheryl Sandberg's Shift: Sandberg moved from a tech executive to a documentary filmmaker focused on sexual violence in war.
2. Media Misrepresentation: She criticizes the media and political groups for downplaying or denying the use of rape as a weapon by Hamas.
3. Documentary Impact: Sandberg hopes her documentary, "Screams Before Silence," will correct misconceptions and spread awareness about the use of sexual violence in conflicts.
4. Political and Social Reactions: The episode discusses the lack of response from feminist and liberal groups, highlighting a broader issue of selective activism.
5. Personal and Political Changes: Sandberg reflects on how the events influenced her political views and her sense of belonging within traditional liberal spaces.

1: Introduction

The episode opens with Sandberg discussing the Israeli hostage rescue mission and the media's portrayal of it. Quotes include reflections on the misrepresentation of events.

2: The Making of 'Screams Before Silence'

Sandberg discusses the making of her documentary, which addresses the use of sexual violence as a weapon of war. She shares the challenges and motivations behind this project.

3: Political and Social Silence

This chapter delves into the silence from feminist and progressive groups regarding the attacks, with Sandberg expressing her disillusionment.

4: A New Political Identity

Sandberg discusses feeling politically homeless and reflects on the shifting allegiances in U.S. politics, particularly among liberals.

5: Conclusion

The episode concludes with a broader discussion on the implications of the October 7 events for Jewish communities and the global understanding of anti-Semitism.

1. Educate on Sexual Violence in Conflicts: Learn and spread awareness about the use of sexual violence as a weapon of war to prevent its normalization.
2. Support Transparent Media: Advocate for and support media outlets that provide unbiased and comprehensive news, avoiding those that skew or ignore significant events.
3. Engage in Political Discussions: Engage in open political discussions without aligning strictly along party lines, focusing on issues rather than ideologies.
4. Support Victim Advocacy Groups: Support groups that provide aid and a platform for victims of war crimes, including sexual violence.
5. Promote Comprehensive Education: Advocate for educational curriculums that provide a balanced view of global conflicts and their impacts.

Last Saturday, stunning news broke out of Israel: four hostages had been rescued by the Israel Defense Forces in a daring daylight operation in central Gaza. Noa Argamani, 26; Almog Meir Jan, 22; Andrey Kozlov, 27; and Shlomi Ziv, 41, were liberated after 245 days in captivity.

The first name, Noa Argamani, was one that many people recognized immediately. Everyone remembered the footage of Noa being kidnapped on the back of a motorcycle on October 7 from the Nova Music Festival, a look of terror on her face, reaching for help. Eight months later, it was hard not to see the footage of Noa’s reunion with her father, crying in his arms, as anything short of a miracle.

But it wasn’t a miracle. It was the result of a complex and historic military operation that many are comparing to the raid on Entebbe in 1976. Not that you would have known that from the headlines. One BBC article was headlined: “Noa Argamani released.” A CNN chyron said the same. A UN official posted: “Relieved that four hostages have been released.” It was as if Hamas just handed them back to Israel and that was that. Other headlines focused on the Palestinians killed during the rescue, without mention of who started the gunfire, how many Hamas militants were killed vs. true innocents, who was holding the hostages, and of course, blindly quoting numbers given by the Hamas-run “Ministry of Health.”

Reading many of the headlines over the last few days—or the Twitter posts claiming that the hostage raid was some kind of decoy for the IDF to kill Palestinians—felt like nothing new from the last eight months: more distortions of reality, more spinning of words, more half-truths or outright lies. The day after the news broke, thousands of protesters encircled the White House waving Palestinian flags and calling for the death of Zionists. “Hezbollah, kill another Zionist now.” “Stand with Hamas,” read one poster. Another sign read “LGBTQ—Let’s Go Bomb Tel Aviv Quickly.”

How did this come to be? How is it that progressives are openly siding with Iranian-backed terrorist groups and against the country trying to stop them? And why are so many people shocked by this moral inversion?

Those are some of the questions Sheryl Sandberg has spent the past eight months asking.

As Sheryl watched the horrors of October 7 unfold, she was sure that everyone would rally against these unspeakable atrocities—particularly after the reports of sexual violence and rape committed by Hamas started coming in. When she saw that people did not, in fact, rise against it, and worse—when people began denying that it even happened—she was stunned. Sheryl was particularly stunned that many of her would-be allies—prominent feminists and progressives in this country and around the world—stayed silent.

This led her to make a documentary about the sexual violence of October 7 called Screams Before Silence. Sheryl described the film as the most important work of her life, which is saying something considering her substantial résumé.

When people think of Sheryl Sandberg, they think of a girlboss, corporate feminism, and coastal politics—wearing a power suit and campaigning for Hillary Clinton. She is, in other words, a normal Democrat. A normal liberal. But as major parts of the left side against Israel, and downplay or ignore or actually foment antisemitism, a lot of people who consider themselves normal liberals are asking themselves: What happened to liberalism?

The position that Sheryl finds herself in is relatable to many Americans, people who feel betwixt and between in a post–October 7 world where the very people they thought were their friends are proving themselves to be just the opposite. Today, Sheryl talks about this very fraught moment we are living in. She talks about her film, the silence from so many women’s organizations and feminists, the denialism, how antisemitism is thriving in America, her changing Jewish identity,

People

Sheryl Sandberg

Companies

Facebook, Meta

Books

None

Guest Name(s):

None

Content Warnings:

Discussions of sexual violence and war crimes

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Today, that's Shopify.com system. From the free press, this is honestly and I'm Barry Weiss. At 11:00 a.m. israeli special forces conducted complex hostage rescue mission and successfully rescued four of our hostages from Hamas captivity. In Gaza last Saturday, stunning news broke out of Israel.

Barry Weiss
Four hostages had been rescued by the Israel Defense Forces in a daring daylight operation in central Gaza. One of my colleagues was sitting on the beach in Tel Aviv with her family when the lifeguards voice came over the loudspeaker.

Attention, citizens of Tel Aviv.

We are thrilled to announce that four hostages have been rescued alive. Strangers hugged strangers. They threw their children in the air. Many openly wept.

Noah Argamani, aged 26 Almag Meyerzhan, 22, Andrei Kozlov, 27, and Shlomi Ziv, who's 41, had been liberated after 245 days in captivity. That first name, Noah Argamani, was one that many people immediately recognized. You probably remember the footage of Noah being kidnapped. Kidnapped on the back of a motorcycle on October 7, she had been at the Nova music festival with her boyfriend, and the look of terror on her face as she reached for her boyfriend to help her was unforgettable. Eight months later, the footage of Noah's reunion with her father crying, held in his arms.

Well, it was hard not to see that as a miracle.

But it wasn't a miracle. It was the result of human beings, the result of a complex and historic military operation that many are comparing to the raid on Entebbe. Not that you would have known that from many of the headlines. One BBC headlined an article Noah Argamani released. A CNN Chiron said the same, and a UN official posted, relieved that four hostages have been released.

It went on and on and on like that, as if Hamas had suddenly handed them back to Israel. And that was that. Other headlines focused on the Palestinians killed during the rescue, without mention of who started the gunfire, without mention of how many Hamas militants were killed, of who was holding the hostages, and, of course, blindly quoting a number given by the Hamas run ministry of health. We now know this. As the IDF exited the city with the rescued hostages in hand, Hamas responded with heavy fire, including rpg's.

As a result, one IDF commander fell in battle, and many palestinian civilians were killed. Although the exact number is not yet known. That is a tragedy. Full stop. It is also Hamas strategy.

Hamas hid the hostages in civilian homes in a densely populated civilian center and then forced a gun battle with the IDF in that area specifically so they could produce more casualties. That is what they try and do. But reading many of the headlines over the last few days or the Twitter posts claiming that the hostage raid was some kind of decoy for the IDF to kill Palestinians felt like, well, nothing new from the last eight months. More distortions of reality, more spin, more half truths, more just outright lies. And then the day after this happy news broke, thousands of protesters encircled the White House, waving palestinian flags and calling for the death of Zionists.

Hezbollah
Now kill another zionist. Now Hezbollah. Hezbollah. Kill another zionist. Now.

Barry Weiss
That was an actual chant. Stand with Hamas. Read another poster. There's another sign I remember that read, LGBTQ, an acronym for lets go bomb tel aviv. Quickly, looking at all of this and looking really at the past eight months, you have to ask yourself, how did this come to be?

How is it that progressives who claim to care about social justice are openly siding with iranian backed terrorist groups and against the country trying to stop them? How did we get to a place of such moral inversion and confusion? Those are some of the questions that Sheryl Sandberg has spent the past eight months asking herself. Eight months ago, Sheryl Sandberg watched the horrors of October 7 unfold, and she assumed that everyone she knew would rally against these unspeakable atrocities, particularly after the reports of sexual violence and rape committed by Hamas started pouring in. But when she saw that many people didnt, in fact, rally against it, or worse, that they denied that it was even happening, she was stunned.

She was particularly shocked that many of her would be allies, prominent feminists and progressives in this country and around the world, stayed silent. All of this led her to make a documentary about the sexual violence of October 7 called screams before silence. And if you haven't yet watched it, I urge you to. The film is really powerful, and Cheryl has described it as the most important work of her life. And that's saying something, because Sheryl Sandberg has done a lot of work.

She was coo of Facebook for more than a decade. Before that, she had a huge job at Google, and frankly, she has the politics to go along with it. When people think of Sheryl Sandberg, I think they probably think of the word girl boss to bring back an old term. They think of feminism, and they think, frankly, of coastal politics. Of wearing a power suit and campaigning for Hillary Clinton.

Sheryl Sandberg, in other words, is a normal Democrat. She's a normal liberal. But as major parts of the american left side against Israel and either downplay or ignore or actually foment antisemitism, a lot of people who consider themselves normal liberals find themselves asking, what happened to liberalism? I think the position that Sheryl Sandberg finds herself in is really relatable to many Americans right now. People who feel betwixt and between in a post October 7 world where many of the people they thought were their friends and allies are proving themselves to be just the opposite.

Today I talk to Cheryl about this fraught moment that we're living in. We talk about her film, about the silence from so many women's organizations and feminists, about the denialism, about how antisemitism is thriving in America and why that is, about her changing jewish identity, about whether or not she feels politically homeless, about the future of liberalism, the democratic party, and much more. Stay with us. Well be right back.

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Sheryl Sandberg
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Hezbollah
Sheryl Sandberg, welcome to my living room. And welcome to honestly, thank you for having me. It means a lot that I'm in your home talking about something that I think matters a lot to me. And I think matters a lot to you. It does.

And I'm really, really excited to have you here. I think when most people think about who you are, they think about a titan of Silicon Valley. They think about a woman who broke a lot of barriers. You are, of course, the COO of Facebook now meta for many years. Maybe they think of you as the woman that wrote lean in.

I can't believe it. But more than a decade ago, but now you've also added something to that list, which is that you become a documentary filmmaker. And I want you to tell us a little bit about why that's the thing that you've decided to focus on over the past few months and tell us a little bit about this particular documentary, which is called screams before silence. I mean, I never thought I would do this, and I wish this didnt have to be made right. When October 7 happened, I was shocked.

Sheryl Sandberg
I think everyone was shocked. I was even more shocked afterwards. And what I found, I mean, there was so much to be surprised about, right? We could talk all day about it. But what I found, the single most surprising thing is, in the weeks that were following, people started coming out with what I thought was just clear evidence that this wasn't just mass murder, but there was rape.

Women found naked, bloodied. Over and over, the stories were coming out. And what I then expected to happen is people to say, oh, my God. Rape is never supposed to be used as part of war. No sexual violence as part of conflict.

And it just wasn't happening. And I started, like, listening to this and thinking, like, I should try to speak about this because people aren't. So I started working on an op ed. And that week, the first person I saw in the mass media was Jake Tapper. Came out on CNN and said, wait a second.

It looks like there was mass rape here. And then I published my op ed. What I was saying was, sexual violence should never be used as a tool of war. And that weekend, you know, my now very new husband said to me, we should make a video. And I said, why would we make a video?

He said, well, no one reads op eds. I said, everyone reads op eds. He said, no, no one reads op eds. We made a video. And that video went very viral.

And I tried to make that video really carefully. I mean, I have strong views on whats going on, but there were no views in this video. This video said, no matter what flag youre flying, and it very carefully had half palestinian flags and half israeli flags, no matter what you believe, we have to stand united against clear use of sexual violence. And then people were still not believing it. So I helped organize a conference at the UN, where we brought these witnesses who stood there and cried and said, heres what I saw, what I saw with my own eyes.

And then I took those same witnesses to parliaments in Europe, where I certainly think they need to do this. And then we still were having some denial and a whole bunch of silence and some people speaking out. Its never so black and white. And so then Tom Knights called me and said, theres a group in Israel, this group, Castina Communications, they made Fouda. Theyve raised the money.

They want to make a documentary. Will you go interview the people? And I said, yes, right away. And my hope is that anyone who denies this, they have a chance to sit down and see with their own eyes. These are person after person after person.

The people we interviewed, they don't know each other. Some of them do, some of them don't. But they were telling the same story of the same thing. And I think it's really impossible to watch this and not believe this happened. Before we get to the denialism.

Hezbollah
And then also the silence and sort of weaselly words in the face of, I think, overwhelming evidence. Let's just actually spend a moment, Cheryl, to talk about some of the stories of the women that are in this film. As we're sitting here and as you're saying these words about systemic rape and sexual violence against women, like, who comes to mind from the film? I mean, this is hard stuff and graphic stuff. You know, first of all, Amit Sasana, who I now know and have so much respect for, she is a released hostage.

Sheryl Sandberg
She was held for 55 days. As part of that, she was chained to a bed for weeks. And she was, in her words, she tells in the film, gun to her head, forced to commit. She calls it a sexual act on her captor. And then the way she tells the story, you know, sorry, it's a hard time.

She takes the gun away like, do you want food? And he starts joking with her. And she realizes in that moment, this is survival for me. Like, this is survival. And she came out and has now told her story.

And she said, it's really hard. This is not what she wants to be known for. But she knows that there are people still in captivity, and she and others have spoken to them. And she knows they've been sexually assaulted as well. And she knows it the way you would know it if it happened to you.

I find her so brave. There's a video that was out before of her being kidnapped, and she's not tall and she's fighting. And she says, I just wanted to fight. I wanted to show them. They wouldn't take me so easily.

And I'm not particularly strong physically, I feel like. And I don't know if I would have had the strength to do it. This was one of the early videos that I remember coming. There were a few iconic images and videos that came out, of course, Noah Argamani on the back of a bike, screaming, reaching for her boyfriend. And then this video you're describing of Amit, it's sort of like in the distance, and there's like ten terrorists, ten men, and they're like, she's kicking and they're, like, grabbing her and she's fighting.

Hezbollah
And it's an unbelievable visual, really, of real resistance in the face of terror. And then there's another one, the other very, I thought maybe the most iconic one at the beginning was namaste, which is the girl being dragged from the side of the car to the other. She's in gray sweatpants, no, no feet, no shoes, and she's bloodied right around her crotch. And I interviewed her mother. I yell at, she's still in captivity.

Sheryl Sandberg
Like, and she. I've asked her in that interview what was it like seeing that video? And she said she can't believe that anyone could do this to a young girl and she doesn't know what happened to her. Like, we don't know if she was raped. We don't know if that's blood.

Like, no one knows. But we do know. And there have been more and more voices coming out that the people have been released. There's a meet who said it happened to her, but they've said over and over. I spoke to other hostages who are being sexually assaulted.

There's that video that just came out where they say, these are the girls who can get pregnant. Well, right. We're sitting here basically nine months since October 7. And one of the sources in your film talks about sort of the unthinkable, the idea that there are fertile women, young women, women, 1920 years old, who have been kept now for nine months. And there have been accounts, including from a younger woman in the film, talking about how they were confessing to her that that had happened.

Hezbollah
Have you been sort of following this story? Like, is it possible that there are hostages that are right now sitting in Gaza about to give birth? Yes. I mean, I interviewed Agam, the woman you're talking about. She was 18 years old when she was taken captive.

Sheryl Sandberg
And her mother. I went with them to the kibbutz, into their home. They were behind a door. The terrorists broke in. They shot her father, and then they were being taken captive.

It was the mother, the two daughters and two young boys. Their brothers and her older sister fainted. But when she passed out, they shot her in the face, like, in front of them. And so this woman, this mother I interviewed, the mother and the daughter and went with them. She lost her husband.

This woman lost her father. They lost their sister in front of them, and then they're taken into captivity. She says that of all the hostages she saw, half of them were being sexually assaulted. And that was many months ago. So, yes, it is very possible that we have people who are pregnant in captivity.

And, you know, it's really an overwhelmingly sad thing to think about what sexual violence is as a tool of war and why it is so devastating. I had the real honor just a few weeks ago. I was at the McCain foundation, and I spoke on a panel with Dennis McGuggay. I got to interview him for those people who may not watching, dont know. He won the Nobel Peace Prize for his work on sexual violence and conflict.

Hes a doctor coming out of the DRC, and he said the most stunning thing. He said sexual violence is the most effective tool of war for two reasons. The first I was familiar with, he said, its just effective. You rape women and sometimes their husbands then don't want to be with them. You tear apart society.

They're carrying babies of their rapists. What happens then? Like, what would it be to be a woman in captivity? Right? So he talked about how effective it is, and then he paused and he said something chilling.

He said, and it's free. It's free. You don't have to buy a bomb, a rocket, a gun. It's free. So you can totally terrorize a nation.

Someone said in our film, one of our interviewees, when you rape a woman, you rape the nation. You can terrorize a nation and a people for free. And I think that's why this film means so much to me. That's why I think there is so much at stake. This is about jewish women.

This is about jewish survival. This is about rape as a tool of war. We're sitting here right now in your beautiful home, right? We just saw your beautiful, beautiful daughter. There are kids as young as your daughter who have been raped, documented as part of war.

Right now, Ukraine, Sudan, Ethiopia, Haiti. We can go on and on. This is happening right now, happening probably to the people who are still hostages in Gaza. And if we don't find our common humanity to stand against this, if we can't realize that politics are less important than this, we have so much to lose. And that should terrify everyone.

And unfortunately, right now it does not. I want people to watch this documentary. I think it's very, very important that people watch it because you really go through person by person. You interview at one point, the chief superintendent of the israeli police. You look at photographs yourself, some of which are too gruesome to show on camera out of respect for the bodies.

Hezbollah
And there's a lot of sensitivity around that in jewish tradition. So I don't want to go into each piece of evidence that's marshaled in this film because I want people to watch it. What I want to focus on a little bit with you is in the face of such overwhelming evidence, in the face of a pogrom that was put on livestream by terrorists, there are people living in the freedoms and comforts of the west that are denying it. And I just want to read a few examples to you right now. Someone like Max Blumenthal, a commentator, journalist, who said that a woman's body found naked from the waist down was simply because women at festivals like to dress in skimpy attire.

Another example, the prominent british commentator Owen Jones, who said, there's no evidence of rape. This is a guy with a million Twitter followers, someone like Brianna Joy Gray. She was Bernie Sanders press secretary in 2020. She said, Zionists are asking that we believe the uncorroborated eyewitness account of men who describe alleged rape victims in odd, fetishistic terms. Shame on Israel for not seriously investigating claims of rape and collecting rape kits.

How do you understand the logic or the worldview that leads people to say things like that? Well, the first thing I want to say is, please watch this film. And what you will see is a man named Rami. He is a huge guy. Huge.

Sheryl Sandberg
Like, he towers over me, and he's a hero. I mean, the sirens go off on October 7. He literally gets into his car with his own gun. He's a private citizen and goes to rescue people. And we go to a forest, and he says, here, these trees, there were women dead, naked, bloodied.

Sorry, graphic. Legs spread. That's what he found. Tied to trees. Tied to trees.

We named the film screams before silence. This woman, Tali, who I interview, she said she's hiding in a trailer. And I went with her to that trailer. It was the first time she had been back. And this is all.

Hezbollah
This is at the site of the Nova music festival. Yeah. And she said, you know, she would hear, like, a sound, like a scream, and then a shot, which meant someone was pointing a gun, scared and shot. But then she would hear screams over, over and over. You know, she's speaking in Hebrew, like, stop, stop.

Sheryl Sandberg
No, no, no. For, like 15 minutes, followed by a shot that sounds like rape, sexual assault. And when she got out of that trailer on both sides were bodies naked from the waist down where those screams were. I mean, it's just clearly raped. So the question is why?

Why? I think there's two reasons. The first is that some of this has to be anti semitism. I told you, I went from the UN to Europe, and I took these same witnesses to european parliaments. And there was a lunch that someone held, and we were all there.

And this woman stood up and she said, I live in Paris. I run a nonprofit that deals with sexual violence and conflict. I've done this for three decades. She said, and these are her words, she said, I'm not jewish, but I think there's anti semitism happening right now, because in my three decades of working at this, every time this happens anywhere in the world, all anyone ever asks is, how can we stop it? And all of a sudden, for the first time ever, they're saying, did this happen?

She said, the only answer she has is anti Semitism. And I do think that's part of it. But I think there's something else going on. And these kind of conflate, right. Is that polarization is about people have a narrative, and that narrative's overly simple, overly black and white, and they can only see the world through that narrative.

So if you believe that October 7 was resistance, and I want to be super clear, I don't. But if you believe it was, all of a sudden when you hear there was rape, that does not fit into your model of resistance at all. So what are your choices? You can say, wait a second, maybe I'm wrong, or maybe it's not this simple, or maybe there's gray. It's not that black and white.

Or you can reject the fact that people on both sides, right, not just the left, the right, too. But people are saying this didn't happen, it's because it doesn't fit into their narrative. But the fact that anyone could look at this and say, this doesnt fit into my narrative, therefore it didnt happen, should scare all of us. I want to dig in a little more to the idea that this is about polarization, because I think polarization is a big issue. But I think really whats going on here is that there is a worldview thats taken hold on a large part of the left that insists that people's identity basically determines whether or not we judge their actions as moral.

Hezbollah
And if a group that has been decided, in this case Palestinians, that they are victims. And, you know, we don't have time to get into the history of the Israeli Palestinian, or the jewish muslim conflict. But if it's decided that they are victims, then everything is permissible. And when it is decided that a group is the victimizer, nothing is permitted. And once you have that lens on the question of Gaza, Israel, or Israel Palestine, everything flows from that.

And therefore, Israel can be basically guilty of everything and the Palestinians can be guilty of nothing. That is how like, it's sort of impossible for me to move away from that as a conclusion. But I think what is happening again, and there's lots of different. That's one framing. There's 40 others you could have.

Sheryl Sandberg
But the question is, what do you do when information comes at you that doesn't fit your worldview, that doesn't fit your narrative? So you believe that this is resistance. Someone believes that. I think people who are saying this, the same people who insisted that we believe women in other circumstances are now saying, did this happen? And that's deeply troubling.

Why? Well, you have information coming at you that doesn't fit your narrative, then what do you do? Well, I think what we are teaching people to do is not talk to each other, not listen to each other, not have real debates. And I think that's what has to happen. And I am hoping, still hoping, and there has been some movement there really has, that people will look at this issue because this is such an, in my view, an easy one, right?

Its kind of shocking. But there are rules of war. Its kind of weird, right? Like war is about killing people, yet there are rules. No biological weapons, no nuclear weapons, etcetera.

And until 30 years ago, rape was totally accepted. It was just part of war. And then it was feminist groups, progressive groups, human rights groups, that said after the mass rapes of the DRC, the former Yugoslavia, Bosnia, they said, were not going to allow rape to be used as a tool of war, and they started prosecuting it for the first time. Now we have a moment where we have to decide if we stand by that or we let history backslide, because this does appeal. But were living in a world, Cheryl, in which the ICC is trying to try the israeli leadership as genociders, war criminals.

Hezbollah
And here we have a group that has used rape as a weapon of war, that has carried out the worst genocide of Jews since the Holocaust. And they're silent, so not everyone's silent. I'm not. I don't. I'm talking about those government bodies, like those kind of international bodies.

They've got it completely, it seems to me, morally inverted. I'm not gonna defend, like, there are people speaking out. I think Pramila Pratt did a good job going to Israel and coming out. She could do more for sure, but she went to Israel and she came out and said, there's real evidence of this. And I think the pressure she was on internally, she shouldn't be under that pressure.

Sheryl Sandberg
But that's why we're doing this. Like, we just need to keep putting the evidence in people's faces so they can see how wrong some of the things that they believe are. The title screams before silence comes from the woman you referenced earlier in this conversation, the woman who hid for 7 hours sort of cramped down in this trailer at the Nova music festival. But there's sort of like a meta level at which the title also works, which is that on October 7, the only jewish state in the world had a primal screen, and then there was silence, you know, of the world. And especially, I think, and this is the issue you and I are talking about and care so much about, a feminist.

Hezbollah
And I can't help but think about, you know, someone like Michelle Obama, who in 2014, everyone who's watching this or listening will remember Boko Haram. Kidnapped. Bring back our girls. Bring back our girls. Right.

Boko Haram, an islamist group in Nigeria, stole something like 276 schoolgirls, did God knows what to them. And everyone in the world cared about those 276 girls because of the leadership of Michelle Obama and then everyone that sort of fell like dominoes to follow her moral leadership on that issue. Where is she and people like her in this moment? I mean, look, I think everyone should be screaming, bring back the hostages. But you know what's interesting about this?

Sheryl Sandberg
I actually looked this up recently. Do you know about half those girls are still not back? They're still gone. And I actually haven't heard anyone talking about it for a while. I remember when Afghanistan happened.

I mean, girls are committing suicide, like, I think regularly now. I mean, can you imagine everything being taken away from you because you're a girl? And I don't feel like we're talking about that. I do think it's very hard to stay focused on these issues, and I really think we need more focus, and we need many more voices on this one. But come on.

Hezbollah
Like, I don't think it's lack of focus that has led so many people to not say a word about this issue for nine months. It's not lack of focus. It's something else. I mean, I don't think it's lack of focus either. I think it is a combination of it not fitting the narrative they need to believe for reasons they should think harder about, and anti semitism.

I checked ahead of this conversation, some of the most important feminist organizations in the country and what they have said since October 7. The national organization from women only made a statement two months after the fact, did not mention Hamas. Un women, a group whose mission is to create an environment in which every woman and girl can exercise her human rights, waited 55 days. The international committee of the Red Cross has said nothing. I could go on, like, literally do that for 3 hours.

You know, there has been silence or. And I don't know which is worse. Sort of like this weasel word, word salad, you know, in which they literally cannot say who has done the bad, evil thing from so many organizations that I think pre October 7, many people like us would have supported. How does it change your calculus? You're a very powerful woman.

You have unbelievable social capital. You have. You've everything at your disposal. How does it change your calculation about whether or not to support, support organizations like this going forward? I mean, it's changed me immeasurably.

Sheryl Sandberg
And I want to be clear, none of that's acceptable. I do think there's a hierarchy. I think denial is the worst. I think silence is the next worst. I think Weasley words are the next worst.

None of it's okay. Particularly un women. Like, particularly un women. I think what they've done has been completely unforgivable. But I'll tell you how it's changed me.

I'm sitting here. Before this, I worked on women in leadership, largely with lean in, and I'm still working on that. And I still think it matters. The world yesterday elected its 14th female head of state. 14.

There are almost 200 countries. That's pathetic. I'd like to see if. Would we have terrorist attacks in a world where all the countries are half the country run by women? I don't know, but I'd like to try that.

But I know what I'm working on, which is this. I never thought I'd be speaking out on antisemitism. I never thought I'd give speeches on marches at antisemitism. I never thought I'd go to Israel and make documentaries trying to prove something we shouldn't have to prove. So it's definitely changed my focus.

Hezbollah
I think a lot of women who maybe feel politically homeless right now, and maybe especially since October 7, feel like, okay, there's one group of people who I detest on their domestic policy, but I really like what they're saying in terms of the women that are being held hostage right now by Hamas. And there's another group of people who are completely silent on this foreign issue that feels extremely intimate to me but have policies that I really like on things like choice and abortion. Do you feel that way yourself? Yes, but that's where we need to break down these black and white. I'm in this group or this group.

Sheryl Sandberg
I get to sit here and I get to decide what I believe. You get to decide what you believe. And we need to teach our kids and our college students that they get to decide what they believe. Here's what they can believe. They can believe that the girls that Boko Haram took need to come back.

They can believe at the same time that the hostages need to come back. But in the end, they have to vote for someone. Right? And there's one part, I mean, this is the problem, is they can believe all of that, and yet then they go into their polling place and they're like, shit, you know, I hate these people on half of things, and I hate these other people on the other half. And it feels like that quality of sort of hold your nose and ignore half of what you care about, or hold your nose and vote for the other things you care about is only getting more entrenched.

And they should run. No, I'm serious. Then we need people who can find their way into the actual beliefs. But the other thing we need is real dialogue on the hard issues. And that is what I really.

I know you worry about this. You've been a massive advocate for free speech. We need more of that.

Barry Weiss
After the break, I ask Sheryl Sandberg if she's still a Democrat. Stay with us.

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Sheryl Sandberg
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Hezbollah
You've been a Democrat your whole life. Obviously, your worldview has sort of shifted a little bit. And I think I feel like I'm talking to someone who's, like, in a moment, like, in a liminal moment, will you be donating to Biden this cycle and supporting Biden? I did donate and I do support. If you were a senior level cabinet official right now in the Biden administration, what would you be doing differently to educate people in this country and combat anti Semitism and, you know, its most prominent current iteration, which is anti Zionism?

Sheryl Sandberg
Look, I think thats a really important question. I do think, I wish it could be done at the federal level. I think educational curriculum, Im trying to get myself smarter on this and learn, I dont know that much yet, but Im trying to learn about this is very much a state issue and a local issue. And I know they can and should do a lot, but I think we need to go state by state by state, local by local, and change education. I have children of various ages, and my child, who's elementary school age, and one of my children, who is in high school age, have both said one in more sophisticated language than another, that they're not really taught much that's positive about the United States in their school.

They're just not taught that. There's a lot in our country's history to be upset about, like, a lot. Let's be clear. We should be teaching how horrible slavery was, how horrible racism is, how those two are tied. But there's probably some positive things, too.

Probably, right? I mean, Cheryl. Right. Look at your life. No, I know.

You know, like, I know my great grandparents fled, fled anti semitism, fled the Holocaust, and got back here. And my great grandparents, they came with nothing. They have had huge opportunities here. I'm sitting here with you. I could never have imagined knowing someone like you growing up.

And so that's my point. There's a lot that's positive, too. And I think our educational system on this is completely broken and is particularly broken how we talk about the Middle east and Judaism and Zionism, and it needs to get fixed. And some of the things that are passing in some of these local areas are truly scary. How do you make sense?

Hezbollah
It's something I'm sure you've thought a lot about, about the fact that some of the most educated, pedigreed people, young people in our country and around the west are celebrating, actually, the groups that carried this out. And that began when we saw progressive groups using the hand glider, which was a symbol of death, mass death for those kids at the Nova music festival, as a symbol of liberation. And then, of course, in the months following all of these encampments at colleges, schools like the ones we graduated from, with people chanting that, you know, resistance is justified, chanting for global intifada. How do you understand, like, what's the steel man. Like, steel man.

Their position. What do you think they are shouting for when they're shouting those slogans? Well, I'm going to disagree with something you just said, which is they're not educated. They're not educated. I mean, you seen these videos go around where you're like.

Sheryl Sandberg
You're marching and screaming from the river. To the sea, and you're like, what river? What river? What sea? Right?

No idea. Well, you and I both know what the river is and what the sea is, and we know that the entire country is between the river and the sea. And if you say from the river to the sea, no Jews. You are pushing jews into the sea. That is death.

Globalize the antifa. That means, you know, attack violently. The intifada. The second intifada is violent attacks on Jews. Globalized means violent attacks on people who support Israel in and out of Israel.

That's not. Okay, so let's start with they're not educated, and I think they need to be educated. And I think, look, part of what has to happen here is people, again, to go back to the history and actually understand, why is Israel so important to Jews? I saw a recent poll that said that 80% of american Jews say that Israel is an important part of who they are. Why?

Let's go back to why. Because we were raised by parents. I'm older than you are. I was raised by parents and grandparents. You were raised by grandparents and great grandparents who told us that they might one day try to push us into the sea, that they might one day come after us.

The state of Israel is that place that Jews are going to be able to go, and that remains really important to Jews. And the irony and what makes this situation even so much worse is it's never been more important. If you had asked me on October 6, would I ever think that I would need to, like, hide? I would have thought it was crazy. Cause I like you.

I would laugh at you, but I would have been like, what? No, you would have gone home and been like, I heard the craziest thing. Craziest thing. Barry's on her, you know? But you were speaking out on antisemitism before October 7.

I wasn't. I thought anti semitism was a relic. And I have had a conversation. I had a conversation with a friend of mine. It just happened.

I was on a walk with a really close friend who's not jewish. And what came out of my mouth, like, a month afterwards was, are you gonna hide me? I literally said that to a friend, Barry, a good friend. And she said, what are you talking about? She had no idea what I was talking about.

And I. Sorry, I'm emotional about this. And I said, well, you know, in the Holocaust, there were, like, these people who weren't jewish who risked their lives, and some of them died, but they hid their jewish friends, and some of those people survived. Would you hide me? And this woman is so amazing.

She turned around and she started crying. We were going on a walk in Menlo park, and she said, I can't believe you're asking this question and it's never going to come to this. But yes, I would hide you. And do I really think it's going to come to this? No, but am I sitting here in your living room, like, trying not to cry?

Because I'm on your podcast and I'm talking about this, like, yeah, because this is real. This is real for us. This is real. And the problem is that even the most well meaning people don't see the anti semitism in front of them. I have a friend who's in an exec ed program at a major university.

So it's like older people, like, not your age, my age, who are going back to college paired with younger people, like, in college, there's like a cohort, and they go to class together. So she told me recently that one of the things her cohort does is yoga. They do it at Hillel. It's not sponsored by Jews. It's not jewish yoga.

It's just yoga in the Hillel building. And a few weeks ago, four of the undergraduates said they wouldn't go anymore because it was at hello. And I looked at her and I said, well, then what happened? She said, well, we moved yoga. And I was like, really?

Really? You moved yoga? How about that's unacceptable. How about if you said you weren't going into the building of any other group based on religion or identity, we. Would sit you down and be like, let's bigoted it.

That's bigoted. That's hate. And so I feel like for the first time in life, we have all of this education to do on what is hate and why and how it's not okay being directed at the Jews or anyone. Cheryl, for someone who's, like, watching us or listening into this and open minded and open hearted, but is thinking, hold on, I've seen what's going on on campus. Seems kind of crazy.

Hezbollah
I've seen some of these incidents getting reported on. Seems pretty wrong. But why is Sheryl Sandberg sitting here talking about, you know, 1940s Poland like that seems a world away. But I wonder sometimes if the historical reference that american Jews grab for, in this instance, at least, what we're experiencing right now, is the wrong one. In other words, there are two sorts of anti Semitism that are prevalent through thousands of years of jewish history.

One is the kind that expresses itself as the Nazis did, which is, we're going to murder you. Right? We're going to kill you. No debate we need to have about that. And that's what they did.

They killed 6 million Jews and many others, millions of others and a bunch. Of people on October 7 very recently. Exactly. And jihadism is an expression of exactly that kind of anti Semitism. But what's going on here in America, I think, is a more insidious sort of less physically threatening, but perhaps more invisible, I think, to someone outside of our community type of antisemitism.

That's a very wordy way of saying it reminds me a little bit more of soviet antisemitism. In other words, in the Soviet Union, it was just accepted that there were whole areas of life that you could not participate in as a jew. You could, in some instances, if you disavowed the right things and you disavowed the right people, and of course, you disavowed the jewish God and you disavowed the sure. Until, of course, they came for you, too. But in other words, the way that that kind of anti Semitism functioned was to say, if you rid yourself of the things that make you a jew, you can survive and be acceptable.

And that is, I think, the bargain that we're seeing being put, especially to young people and especially to progressives on campus, but also, frankly, in huge realms of american cultural life, try and go apply as an Israel supporter at a museum in this country, in a city like Los Angeles and New York, see what happens. Try and go get a job at a university, as a professor, as a zionist. See what will happen. See if you'll get tenure. And I wonder if you've thought about that and if you think that that's more the right analogy and maybe just to underline it, like, here's one kind of anti Semitism that says we're gonna kill the jewish body, and there's another kind of anti Semitism that says we're gonna kill the jewish soul.

Sheryl Sandberg
Look, what I was saying is that I don't really think I need to be hidden. Like, I know that I don't really think they're coming. But that fear as a jew, that fear this has been going on for thousands of years. And so that fear we have of being unacceptable, of hate, I don't, again, really think they're coming after me to kill me. But I do think that all hate needs to be unaccepted, needs to be absolutely said we're not okay with it.

And I think part of what you're saying or not part of what you're saying, what you're saying on this is really important. So I have several friends who are my age with kids in college who had rooming groups set up for the fall. I have friends whose kids, their roommates are no longer going to room with them because one of them is because the kid is jewish and believes in the state of Israel. And one of them is because the kid is jewish and is marching for free Palestine, that it's happening on both sides, that people are demanding. There was a thing I saw online, which was a real tape of people on one of the NY N, the New York University campuses screaming, free, free Palestine.

Jewish students, pick a side. That's it. That jewish students, why should jewish students have to pick a side? And shouldn't we be scared of that form of antisemitism and hate, much as we're scared of that form of hatred against any group, much as we stand? And I'm proud, you know, to be a jew who's stood against forms of hatred, forms of bigotry, forms of bias.

I stand against all of it. And we have to stand against this as well. Has it changed the kind of organizations that you will give your money toward? I saw that the Harvard Crimson. I don't know if this is accurate, but in 2020, you gave a million dollars to Harvard.

Hezbollah
Like, would you still give money to Harvard today? It's definitely changed how I think about where I give my resources and in many ways, most importantly, my time. Again, I'll give you an example. My foundation, we run lean in. Obviously, in other programs.

Sheryl Sandberg
We had a program thats pretty popular in the workplace called 50 ways to reduce bias. And its all these cards, and you can see forms of bias that we think are really important. Some people might say are small, we think are big. I think are big. We never had one on religion, just didnt have it.

Now we have anti semitism, anti muslim hate. Those cards are now in there. We didnt have those cards before October 7. I want to be clear. I was wrong.

I missed this. And it's definitely become a much bigger part of my life's work. I think there's a big debate going on, like just writ large about. We look at so many of our institutions, whether it's harvard or whatever it is, there's so many of them that everyone's sort of looking and, like, horrified at what they've become. They've become inverted versions of themselves, right?

Hezbollah
And we each have the ones that will come to mind for us. And I think there's a big sort of strategic debate about whether or not the right way to fix them is to reform them from within or to sort of deport yourself and start something new. Right. I think about it as sort of like the radical versus the reformer. And part of me always comes to the conclusion in the end that it's sort of like a personality thing.

And some of us are meant to be radicals, and some of us are meant to be reformers. Where do you think you sit, and what do you think the right approach should be? I mean, it's such a good question, because when I look back at writing, lean in, there were, you know, a whole bunch of criticisms, whole bunch of people hopefully liked it and helped them, and it did well, right? And a whole bunch of criticisms. And one of the main criticisms was that I was telling women how to succeed within the capitalist system, not blow it all up, right.

Sheryl Sandberg
And so I've thought a lot about that. And on that, I sit here. I still believe it's within the system, because the people who want to blow up capitalism, capitalism has a lot of problems, right? You walk, you know, 20 minutes that way, and you can see the homelessness. That's a problem.

No one should be homeless in a wealthy country. No one should be homeless anywhere. We owe people better than that, in my view. But would I blow up capitalism? Not until someone tells me what's replacing it.

Do I think there needs to be capitalism with more assistance, more equal opportunity? Absolutely. Do I think a whole bunch of things are broken, but I don't see the socialist system that's gonna work. And so I've long been either accused or applauded for being someone who works to change the system from within. Would I give up on all of our institutions and all of these organizations?

No. You know, planned Parenthood, reproductive rights for all the former. NARAL, these organizations are killing themselves so that people aren't going to be carrying around dead fetuses. I think that work is still really important, and I believe in these organizations. One day, will I give up on our elite colleges?

Maybe. I hope not. And look, there are examples. This can be done. Well, Chancellor Daniel Durmeyer, I don't know if you're following him.

A Vanderbilt. Did you see what he's done? So he comes from the University of Chicago. So let's start there. Free speech, long history.

He was really steeped in free expression. Free dialogue. They broke into his house, pushed the security guards. He made sure they were arrested because they pushed the security guards. And then they were occupying his house.

And the clear university rules say you're not allowed to be here. And people were saying, you're starving me, like, you need to feed us food. And he was like, no, leave. Go there. Go to sweet green.

Go right there, where my cafeteria will give you food that we provide you as being part of this university. And when he was criticized, I think he had some great quote somewhere. He said, when someone breaks into your house, you don't serve them dinner. But then this is really important. He and I believe this is true.

There's real dialogue at Vanderbilt. People actually have real conversations. Do I think other universities could do a better job following that example? Sure. One day, will I give up and say I give up on all of them?

Maybe, but I'm not there. Let's talk about how your worldview has changed, sort of. Maybe in terms of foreign policy, it's a narrow word for the thing I wanna describe. There's a moment in your film, and you blurt out her body, but where Shawnee look. And people will remember that this is the woman.

Hezbollah
It was one of the early images that came out. She was wearing sort of a black bra and black shorts, and she's her body limp. She thinks she was already murdered by that time, is thrown into the back of this pickup truck. And you see the terrorists driving this pickup truck through Gaza. And normal Palestinians, not at least uniformed or whatever official members of Hamas, are coming up on the side of the truck, and there's a guy in sort of like a light red shirt who spits on her butt.

And I will say for myself, like, I grew up in a family. My dad's a conservative, my mom's a liberal. But we always talked about the two state solution. We supported the pullout from the Gaza Strip because we believed it would bring peace.

At least we supported. The context I grew up in was one where we support Israel and we support a two state solution. And that always sort of followed, right. That was always the second sentence after the first. And I find myself after October 7 and after.

That's one tiny, tiny example of the phenomenon I'm talking about, which is just widespread support among many Palestinians. We went to Ramallah, and I just went up to random people walking through the checkpoint in East Jerusalem and said, what do you think of October 7? And it went from basically shades from tacit support to outright jubilation. How has seeing the kinds of things I know you've seen, some of which are captured in your really powerful documentary, how has that changed your view of the conflict? If I can ask you such a big question, you can.

Sheryl Sandberg
I mean, look, I've seen all your stuff in your interviews and how compelling that is. And what I would say is, I think it's made me realize how much harder it's going to be to get to the solution that I still have to believe in. I don't think there's another solution other than two states, but it has to be two states run by people who want their neighbors to live in peace and prosperity. I think Hamas is holding Jews captive, and I think Hamas is probably holding a whole bunch of Palestinians who are innocent captive. I think they have systematically taught this through the universities.

I mean, they've got like their Sesame street equivalent, telling kids to kill Jews. Well, that's a leadership problem. What if, and I don't know where they're gonna find this. So it feels, I don't want to say hopeless, but it feels really hard. But really more important, what if they were run by people who were teaching their kids to live in peace?

What if they were run by people who were teaching people? Actually, Arabs and Muslims who live in Israel can have full citizenship, right? I think we are going to need leaders who are living in peace, and I think it is hard to imagine how we get there, but I dont think theres another choice. I cant imagine what it's like to be a palestinian woman living in a place where there are honor killings there. I can't imagine that woman is choosing that.

I just can't. And so I'd like to give her an option of living in peace and security, too, because she deserves it. The Jews living in Israel, the Muslims living in Israel, the Arabs living in Israel, everyone living in Palestine, everyone deserves better than the kind of leadership that would parachute in and rape and murder. Everyone deserves better than leadership where I believe workforce participation for women is of the lowest in the world. In Gaza, for palestinian women, they can't be choosing that.

They wouldn't choose that. Women leading within the system. You know, there's been lots of buzz at different times in your career. She could be treasury secretary, maybe secretary of state, maybe something else. Would you ever think about running yourself?

No. Why? Because it looks like hell and because I really, I feel like I've worked hard to have my own voice. I am sitting here today. I'm no longer running meta.

I'm honored to have the opportunity I had for so long. I'm not on the board and I can work on anything I want to work on. I can say anything I want to say. I can work on sexual violence, and if I were in another job, I would not be able to be doing this as far full time as I am. And I feel like I owe myself my independence and I'm glad to have it.

Barry Weiss
Thanks for listening. If you liked today's conversation, if it challenged you, if it made you think differently about the post October 7 world that we're living in, share this episode with your friends and family and use it to have a conversation or a debate of your own. Last but not least, if you want to support the kind of journalism we do here on honestly, there's only one way to do it. It's by going to the Free Press's website@thefp.com and becoming a subscriber today. We'll see you next time.