Saturday Matinee: Ancient History Fangirl

Jenny Williamson
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the Cave of Time by Edward Packard was the first book in the wildly popular choose your own adventure series, first published in 1979, and I remember it well. Choose your own. Adventure books were at the height of their popularity when I was a young reader in the mid eighties. Theyre still around today. But if you dont know what they are, theyre kind of like reading as role playing game.

Youre the protagonist and your choices matter. Turning to page 80 instead of page 42, leading you along a path to one of dozens of possible endings. These books probably represent one of the last great leaps in printed technology, responsive storytelling. And they were short, action packed, and you could always play them again, making new and different choices. Because really, in life, who doesnt want a do over sometimes to make a new and different choice?

So lets try something new today with a choose your own adventure podcast. Climb into the cave of time and lets go back to 79 ce on the mediterranean coast where Mount Vesuvius has just begun rumbling on todays Saturday matinee. Well try to survive a cataclysmic volcanic eruption with an episode of Ancient History. Fangirl choose your own adventure edition. I hope you enjoy.

And while youre listening, be sure to search for and follow ancient history. Fangirl we put a link in the show notes to make it easy for you.

History Daily is sponsored by Audible. One of the best compliments I get from listeners is that they feel like theyre there, you know, witnessing history themselves. It can be a powerful illusion because listening goes hand in hand with imagining. Thats why audible is such a great place to let your imagination soar. When you listen, you can be inspired to imagine new worlds, new possibilities, new ways of thinking.

Theres more to imagine when you listen. A great listen that got my imagination going was David Grands newest the wager, a tale of shipwreck, mutiny, and murder. As an audible member, you choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog and new members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com historydaily or text historydaily to 500 500. Thats audible.com historydaily or text historydaily to 500 500 history daily is sponsored by Clarendon.

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Go to claritin.com right now for a discount so you can live Claritin Clear use as directed. This episode is brought to you by our Patreon members. Thank you so much. Join our Patreon for extra episodes, interviews, extra content, and to help support the podcast and help us continue to do the work we do. Go to patreon.com ancienthistoryfangirl to learn more.

Jenni McMenamey
Hindsight is 2020, Jen. Everyone can make the right choice if you know what the wrong ones are.

Though it was now morning, the light was still exceedingly faint and doubtful. The buildings all around us tottered, and though we stood upon open ground, yet as the place was narrow and confined, there was no remaining without imminent danger. We therefore resolved to quit the town. A panic stricken crowd followed us, and as to a mind distracted with terror, every suggestion seems more prudent than its own, pressed on us in dense array to drive us forward. As we came out.

Being at a convenient distance from the houses, we stood still in the midst of a most dangerous and dreadful scene. The chariots, which we had ordered to be drawn out, were so agitated backwards and forwards, though upon the most level ground, that we could not keep them steady even by supporting them with large stones. The sea seemed to roll back upon itself, and to be driven from its banks by the convulsive motion of the earth. It is certain at least, the shore was considerably enlarged, and several sea animals were left upon it. On the other side, a black and dreadful cloud, broken with rapid zigzag flashes, revealed behind it variously shaped masses of flame.

These last were like sheet lightning, but much larger upon this, our spanish friend, whom I had mentioned above, addressing himself to my mother and me with great energy and urgency. If your brother, he said, if your uncle be safe, he surely wishes you may be so, too. But if he perished, it was his desire, no doubt, that you might both survive him. Why therefore, do you delay your escape a moment we could never think of our own safety, we said, while we were uncertain of his. Upon this, our friend left us and withdrew from the danger with the utmost precipitation.

Soon afterwards, the cloud began to descend and cover the sea. It had already surrounded and concealed the island of Capri and the promontory of misenum. My mother, now besought, urged, even commanded me to make my escape at any rate, which, as I was young, I might easily do. As for herself, she said her age and corpulency rendered all attempts of that sort impossible. However, she would willingly meet death if she could have the satisfaction of seeing that she was not the occasion of mine.

But I absolutely refused to leave her, and taking her by the hand, compelled her to go with me. She complied with great reluctance, and not without many reproaches to herself for retarding my flight. The ashes now began to fall upon us, though in no great quantity. I looked back. A dense, dark mist seemed to be following us, spreading itself over the country like a cloud.

Let us turn out of the high road, I said, while we can still see, for fear that should we fall in the road, we should be pressed to death in the dark by the crowds that are following us. We had scarcely sat down when night came upon us. Not such as we have when the sky is cloudy or when there is no moon but that of a room. When it is shut up and all the lights put out, you might hear the shrieks of women, the screams of children, and the shouts of Mendez. Some calling for their children, others for their parents, others for their husbands, and seeking to recognize each other by the voices that replied.

One lamenting his own fate, another that of his family. Some wishing to die from the very fear of dying, some lifting their hands to the gods, but the greater part convinced that there were now no gods at all and that the final, endless night of which we have heard had come upon the world. I'm Jenny Williamson. And I'm Jen McMenamey, and this is ancient history. Fangirl.

Jen McMenamey
The Pompeii edition. Woo hoo. We finally made it. Oh, it's been over five years, and I've been waiting for this moment like the wild volcano nerd that I am so that cold open that Jenny read us, Washington, a portion of the letter that Pliny the younger wrote to Tacitus describing the eruption of Mount Vesuvius. And I couldn't imagine a better beginning to this episode, so I just had to include it.

Jenni McMenamey
This is one of the episodes that we were so excited about doing from the very beginning of starting this podcast. Jen had this idea about doing a Pompeii episode in exactly this format. I thought it was genius. We just didn't get to it till now because it didn't match the theme of what we were doing. But now it does, and here we are.

Jen McMenamey
Yeah. So thank you, Jenny. This is not gonna be your typical Pompeii episode. And I'm saying that now because I know how much you all love our deep dives into all things historical and mythological. And while I did try to dive pretty deep into the history, we're not gonna dwell too much on the town frozen in time.

No. Instead, we're going to focus on what has haunted me since I was a little teenager translating Pliny's letters, both of them in latin class. Because my question as I was doing that translation work was, could you or me or anyone survive Pompeii? Well, I mean, you know, the eruption of Mount Vesuvius, but let's just say Pompeii. And the answer is yes.

Jenni McMenamey
Maybe if you were lucky and made all the right choices at exactly the right time, many people survived the catastrophic eruption. While most people focus on those who perished at Pompeii and Herculaneum, this episode is going to look at those who survived and how the choices they made contributed to their survival or demise. This is ancient history. Fangirl, could you survive a volcano? Choose your own adventure edition.

Woo hoo. This is gonna be so much fun. I can't wait. I've been so anticipating this for weeks as Jen has been writing it. I'm so excited.

Jen McMenamey
I know. And I was telling my husband, who, you know, we're all contemporary, Jenny. Me and my husband, we grew up in the eighties and nineties with the choose your own adventure books. Those books, I loved them so much. They were always so wild.

So when I told him I was doing this, he was like, do you have dice? Are you gonna roll the dice to see what happens? I'm like, no, this is a podcast. I have to simplify it a little bit. I don't remember ever doing this with dice.

Those are the more technical ones, the more british ones, I'd say. Oh, gotcha. So I turn over to my co host. Let's get going. People are gonna be here for a while.

This is a long episode. Strap in. So let's set the stage. This is a prologue. When in Pompeii, choose the right month, because that's actually a question that we have in the historical research.

Jenni McMenamey
So let's set the stage. You're visiting Pompeii. Now, before we get any further, we have to talk a little bit about Pompeii and when you might be visiting, because it makes a huge difference to your survival. The year is 79 AD and the date is in dispute. While we have eyewitness accounts like Pliny the Younger, who claimed that Mount Vesuvius erupted on August 2479 AD, there are other theories about the date of the eruption.

Modern research tends to think that the eruption of Mount Vesuvius was actually about two months later than the date Pliny the younger recalled, meaning the eruption happened in late October or possibly early November of 79 AD. Now, according to an article on the New York Times on the new dating of the famous eruption, research at the site said Sandro Divita, a co author who works at the Vesuvius Observatory. Oh, my goodness. Do we know anyone who listens to this podcast who works at the Vesuvius Observatory? Would it be possible for us to visit it one day?

Yeah. Can I get a tour? Yeah. Anyway, the co author who works at the Vesuvius Observatory has also offered additional hints of a later dating from the discovery of typically autumnal fruit like walnuts, chestnuts and pomegranates to wine already sealed in d'Olia or terracotta containers, suggesting the grape harvest was over. On site excavations had also found that braziers had been in use at the time of the eruption, and some of the victims were wearing heavy clothes still visible in plaster casts.

Jen McMenamey
This all offers a different interpretation from what Pliny wrote. He said. Now, this research suggests that the date of the eruption might be in question. The autumnal berries and fruit were harvested. The grapes were pressed into wine.

People were wearing their autumn clothes. All of these things wouldn't have happened in August. I mean, I've been to Pompeii in August. You don't dress like that. Rather, what they're showing people wearing would have been what they wore in late October.

And the interesting thing is, this late October date has become part of the discussion again recently because of an inscription that was found at Pompeii. According to the New York Times article, quote, it was likely scribbled by a worker who was restoring the villa at the time of the eruption and reads, the 16th day before the Kalends of November, he indulged in food in an immoderate way. The date corresponds to October 17. So is this an inscription that took place, like, on the day of the eruption? No.

So what this tells us is that this inscription happened on October 1779 AD, they believe. And if that is the case, Pompeii couldn't have been buried in ash in August 2479 AD, because people were still doing repairs at Pompeii in October. Yeah. So modern thinking is that this eruption happened in the autumn. Other evidence is the clothes that people were wearing, very heavy garments, as we've said.

Jenni McMenamey
This is from an article on Getty.edu about the dating of the eruption. Ever since the rediscovery of the buried vesuvian cities in the 18th century, some scholars have argued that the eruption occurred in autumn. Their evidence? The heavy clothing worn by some of the victims, still visible in plaster casts made from the cavities left in the volcanic ash by their bodies. Likewise, braziers were discovered in many houses in the region.

Neither would be appropriate for the summer heat of southern Italy. Other scholars have countered that victims might have donned heavier clothing as they fled. The fiery falling ash and braziers were used for cooking as well as heating, so may well have been used in summer. But now, heres the tricky bit. What about the eyewitnesses account?

Jen McMenamey
Pliny the younger tells us the eruption happened in August of 79 AD. Or does he? The original letter that Pliny wrote no longer exists, but his words, his account has come down to us through copies of his letter. The oldest copy is where we get the date from. But it is a copy of a copy.

Could the date have been corrupted or mistranslated? Possibly. Even. Probably. Oh, I've got my conspiracy tinfoil hat on.

And that has to do with who was writing down and copying these letters and what might be gained from altering the date. So, according to that same New York Times article, the oldest copy of Pliny the younger's famous letter is stored in the Florence based medicia Lorenziana library. Monks would have copied down Pliny's letter in the Middle Ages to preserve it for the future. And the date of the 24 August had a special meaning to the narrative they were trying to craft. Again, this is from the New York Times article.

Jenni McMenamey
Quote, biaggio Guaccio, another co author at Italy's National Resort Council. Apologies if I butchered your name. Hopefully I didn't said that some historians believe that in copying the text, the monks who penned the Florence version wanted to associate the eruption with an ancient roman festival known as the Mundus, celebrated on August 24. Romans believed that on that day, a circular crater leading into the underworld was opened, allowing souls to emerge. So here's the did the monks who copied this letter have a real christian monk agenda for associating the eruption of Mount Vesuvius with an ancient roman festival called the Mundus?

Jen McMenamey
A festival about a crater in the earth that allowed souls to leave the underworld? I mean, yes, yes and yes. This was another way of demonizing the ancient Romans and their worship while also moving forward the narrative of Christianity as the one God and the one savior complex. So they were trying to show that the Pompeians were being punished by God for holding this pagan festival. Is that the situation?

Correct. That's what I think is happening here. They were trying to show that, you. Know, they deserved it. They deserved it.

In fact, that narrative of Pompey being punished by God's wrath is something that repeats later in fiction, particularly by christian authors. Now Pompey becomes code for what happened to those wicked, naughty, decadent Romans who believed in all those gods. Death, death and destruction. It's that very christian. Our God is better than their God, and we win.

Jenni McMenamey
Open your heart to Jesus, or else. Have you heard the good news? Have you heard the good news about not being killed by a volcano? Exactly. Now, the novel the last days of Pompeii by Edward Bulwer Lytton.

Jen McMenamey
It was written in 1834, not too long after, I believe, Pompeii was found again. It's very much an in your face look at the decadent Romans who deserve to be destroyed by God in the form of a volcano. Now, the righteous christians in this novel and the christian converts all get to live naturally. Now, this book has been made into several films, and I think, Jenny, maybe we should watch the 1984 miniseries, which is free on YouTube, and do a patreon on it, because it is a wild ride. There is, like, so many archetypes.

There's a holier than thou blind servant girl, a gladiator. Naughty, naughty Romans. Christians. We're gonna yell at the tv so much. Let's do it.

Jenni McMenamey
I'm down. Let's do it. But there are other counters to the date being in August. Again, from the Getty.edu article. Scientific research has also contributed to both sides of this debate.

Analysis of the remains of ancient fish sauce called garum, found in Pompeii, seems to support the traditional date in August, because the fish from which it was made were most plentiful in summer. Archaeobotanical evidence, on the other hand, points to the opposite. Pomegranates and walnuts, which would not have been harvested until autumn, were also found. Atmospheric studies, meanwhile, have suggested that the fallout pattern of volcanic ash reflects high altitude southeasterly winds, which today are prevalent in the region in autumn. Wind patterns may, however, have changed in the almost 2000 years since the eruption.

So the dates are fuzzy. So it matters so much because the entirety of your survival depended on what direction the winds were coming from. Now, assuming that the wind patterns are the same today as they were 2000 years ago, if it was autumn, the winds would have been coming from the south and blowing inland. Now, that will have a massive impact on the ash cloud that will form and the direction the ash cloud will take. It also has an effect on what's happening by the coast, on the beaches, right?

Jen McMenamey
Yes, exactly. So if the winds are blowing from the south and inland, what will happen is you will have waves that are now coming into shore at a higher speed. It'll make it much harder to escape by boat because you won't be able to use the wind to sail your boat out. You'll have to rely on rowers and they'll be rowing against some pretty choppy seas. Also, the direction of the wind matters because that's the direction in which the ash cloud is going to travel.

So if the wind is blowing towards the south, that means that a lot of the fallout from the ash cloud, including the pumice, the stones, eventually the pyroclastic flows are going to go more in that direction. That's why it's super important that we spent all that time talking to you about what direction the wind was and what time of year it was. Right, so we're going to go with October as our date, because that seems to be what most of the evidence on the ground is pointing to, although there is contradictory evidence of that, and we're just going to admit that it may or may not be the right choice. All this digression that we've just had was to set the stage for when you might be visiting Pompeii and what it might look like. For the purpose of our episode, let's assume it's October, a bright and beautiful day in October.

You are visiting Pompeii to catch up with old friends. You arrived last night and couldn't help but feel like something was amiss. The earth rumbled more than usual and it made it very hard for you to sleep, but the new day has dawned and everything seems quiet and clear. The perfect weather for a wander around the marketplace and then maybe a visit to the baths. It's been years since you've had a chance to escape to this bustling resort town.

You had almost forgotten how lovely it is with the sea on one side and the looming mountains on the other. One mountain dominates the landscape. Mount Vesuvius. Hercules Mountain, the mountain that is sacred to him because he passed through the fiery plains on his labors, subduing bandits and allegedly watching the mountains spew fire. That was the cradle story your mother told you.

Your father told you that Pompeii was famous for one its devotion to Venus and all her earthly priestesses. Your father, unsurprisingly, never told you that story when your mother was around. You're excited about the big laudatorial matches that are scheduled for this week. You've needed this break and are determined to make the most of it. You're not sure when you'll have a chance to escape the pressures of work and visit a place as lovely as Pompeii.

Jenni McMenamey
Question. What is my work, Jen? Well, here's the thing, Jenny. I had to explain this to Jenny earlier. Cause it's been a while since I did a choose your own adventure.

Jen McMenamey
It has. When you do a choose your own adventure. The point is, you are the character. So you, Jenni, are the character. I have decided to romanize your name.

Your name is Ginerva and you are a high class Hatira. Of course I am. I'm the highest class Hatira. You're out of the game now, for the most part. Well, obviously, because I made my fortune when I was 15, as one does.

As you do. Because it's a dark, dark, dark world. That's right. And now, you know, I've aged out. I'm 21, I'm clearly over the hill, and I'm just living on my.

Jenni McMenamey
I'm living on my royalties at the moment. I mean, of course you'd be a Hatira. You're well educated, you're outstanding, outspoken. Youre independently wealthy. Naturally.

Naturally. So the cool breeze blows in from the harbor as you and your friends walk down to the marketplace. You are talking, remembering good times. You stop to pick a pomegranate off a laden branch, the fruit heavy and ripe. You remark on the size of the fruit, and your friends laugh.

Jen McMenamey
Your head aches from the wine you consumed last night. One too many craters this morning. You still feel in the thrall of Dionysus. And you don't mind that feeling, as if everything is blurry around the edges and sweet and ripe and safe. And for a moment, everything is as it should be.

It's around 09:00 a.m. bright and clear and still cool. But you know it will be a hot day once the sun reaches its apex. Your friends, and you are moving slowly. One of them suggests getting another cup of wine to stave off the headache he feels beginning to form.

You all laugh and agree, stopping at a small food stall just as the merchant hands over a hunk of fresh cheese, bread, grapes, and four cups of wine. You feel the earth begin to move. At first, you are certain this cannot be real. Your brain is still rolling from the sea voyage, or maybe the wine. But as the second tremor begins, you know that this is happening.

You duck, covering your head as one of your friends pulls you into a doorway. Everything around you is moving and writhing. The earth is shaking, and that's when you hear it. It's a sound you cannot explain. It is so loud and so piercing that you cover your ears, and still it does no good.

You feel like your head is shattering from the sound. You curl up into a tight ball, trying to protect yourself from the shaking ground. The booming noises. And then your friend grabs your arm and points to the sky. A dark cloud rises from Mount Vesuvius, from Heracles mountain.

Inside the cloud, you see flashes of lightning and flames. Your mother's story might have been right. Perhaps this is what Hercules saw. And as you watch the cloud grow and darken, the sun begins to disappear. The mountain is over 6 miles away, but it might as well be on your doorstep, for how quickly the clouds begin to cover the sky.

As the cloud fans out, you begin to wonder if this truly is the end of the world, if the gods have come down from the sky, angry enough with humanity to destroy it all. Your friend is saying something you cannot understand. Your ears still ache, and all you can hear is a hollow ringing. Your other friend is making wild gestures, motioning in the direction of the harbor. You shake your head and point to your ears, trying to make them understand.

And then finally, you can hear again. Each of your friends is speaking quickly, almost out of breath. We have to flee. I have never seen anything like that before. We have to get to safety, your friend Phaedra says.

You nod yes, but is there anywhere still safe on this earth after that earthquake? Or from the fire of the mountain? It's time to make some choices. Ooh, is it time to make some choices. It is all right.

Ginerva. Here we go.

Jenny Williamson
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Jen McMenamey
Ginerva, you are with four friends this morning, Julian, Phaedra, Marius and Helena. Julian is concerned about his family. His elderly father, wife and two small children live in Pompeii. He decides that he is going to return to his villa and see if they can wait out the storm of fire and ash. He offers you a spot at his hearth to pass the storm.

Do you accept? Hmm? What are my other options? Phaedra does not believe that this storm can be waited out. She decides she is going to flee, leaving by the north gate and take refuge at her sisters home in Naples.

This route will mean passing very closely to Mount Vesuvius, even closer to the eruption. Phaedra tells you that you will also be welcomed at her sister's house. Do you agree to flee with Phaedra? That sounds dicey. What's the next option?

Marius believes that the safest way out of the city is to travel by the southern gate. This will take you the furthest from the mountain. It will be slower going as the roads aren't in great repair. But you should be able to get to safety away from the mountain into the city of Stabii where Marius has friends who will take you in. Do you choose to flee with Marius?

Jenni McMenamey
I dont know. Ive been on that road. Its really rough. Helena tells you that escaping by land is futile. There is only one way boat.

Jen McMenamey
She decides to take her chances at the harbor. She has a friend, a merchant whose boat is currently docked there. And she is convinced that he will be able to take her across the harbor and to safety. Do you choose to follow her? Oh, this is rough, huh?

Jenni McMenamey
So let me just go over my options. My options are go north toward Mount Vesuvius. Don't like that one. Go south over roads in bad repair. Don't like that one.

Shelter in place or leave by boat. There's another way. Going east right over the steep mountain passes. Yeah, there is another way. It's a choice that no one has offered for a reason.

Jen McMenamey
You can go east, but it would mean going through steep mountain passes. You glance to the steep mountains to the east. You've seen a few people running towards them. Freedmen and women, servants, shepherds, people who know those closed and crowded paths up the mountains. Even if the sun weren't darkened by the ever present cloud, you wouldn't chance your luck fleeing to the mountains.

You could easily break a leg or other limb and be slowed down. No, east, it's north south. Boat or shelter in place. So those are the options you're left with. Do you go with Marius to the southern gate, follow Phaedra and head north towards Mount Vesuvius.

Hurry to the harbor with Helen or shelter in place with Julian. I think I'm gonna regret this, but I think I'm gonna choose shelter in place. Okay, I'm gonna have a drink before I continue because shit's gonna go down. Babe, you are shaking so badly that you can hardly stand. Your mouth is dry.

Beyond dry. You are not sure you can take another step. You nod at Julian. I am not sure I can handle the journey. I would be grateful if I could pass out this storm with you and your family.

Julian claps you on the back and smiles. Of course, friend. Come, let us get inside and out of this ash. You and Julian stumble home towards his villa on the southern outskirts of Pompeii. It is a good distance from the mountain and you think you will be safe here.

Outside his villa, his dog is tied up. It howls and whines, barking at the swiftly falling ash that coats everything. You should let that dog go. You say you hate the thought of the poor creature frightened and unable to seek shelter. I would, but my daughter loves that dog.

The strangest thing happened though. Yesterday. The dog bit her, took a big chunk out of her hand. The dog has never done that before. So we tied it up out here while we try to figure out what happened.

It would be kinder to let it run free. It needs shelter in a storm like this. Julian unties the dog and moves it to a covered area, then reties the dog to the column. Happy now? You nod, although you would be much happier if he just let the dog go and take its chances in the storm.

But you won't argue with him now, not when things seem so dire. Instead, the two of you head inside where you are greeted by his family and servants. Julians wifes face is ashen as she looks at you both. What is happening out there? What should we do?

Julian laughs. Its a hollow sound, one hes only using to mask his own fear. We will wait out the storm here. This is a strong house. It survived the earthquake of 63.

It will make it through whatever little ash storm is going on outside. His wife still looks worried, but her face brightens. Now servants, we will have to make sure to keep the water covered free from ash. We will have to take turns sweeping the roof and the doorways. There is no use surviving if we're all covered in ashes, right?

Julian says. Let's have a cup of wine to study our nerves, shall we? It's going to be a long night. You look around, something about being shut up in this house feels wrong. You can feel a slow panic creeping into your bones.

Do you a yeah, take the cup of wine and try to settle in for the evening or b decide to cut and run, making for the north, the harbor or the south? I think at this point I need a drink. Yeah, that's how I would be feeling as well. So you take the cup of wine that Julian offers. Your nerves are so frayed that you're not sure you could manage to leave this house again.

Going back into that storm of ash and flaming stone seems the most foolish thing in the world. The air outside is so dry you can barely breathe. You will be much safer inside, under the protection of a strong roof. You let the wine do its work, forgetting for a while where you are and what is happening around you. All throughout the day, the servants bustle in and out of the villa, sweeping ashes away, keeping the roof from caving in with the weight of the stones that are falling from the sky.

Everyone huddles in inner rooms, away from the windows. You let the wine continue to do its work, and soon you are quite drunk. Sleep comes and fits and starts, and when the night finally falls, you begin to wonder if you've made a poor choice. You hear the steady rain of rock on the roof tiles. The air inside the villa is oppressively hot, and you have precious little water left to drink.

The children are crying. Julian blusters back and forth, trying to keep everyone calm. You are certain that some of the servants have slipped away under the COVID of darkness, and you don't blame them. You wonder if you could still make a run for it, but your legs feel wobbly and it hurts to breathe. So you close your eyes and wait for the storm to end.

Jenni McMenamey
So let's take a break here and talk about what happened if you stayed and sheltered in place. And I have to say that speaking from personal experience, I have weathered two natural disaster events where I had a choice like this. One was Hurricane Sandy in New York and one was the COVID pandemic in New York. And both times I chose to shelter in place. So I really understand why people make that choice.

Jen McMenamey
Absolutely. There are real logistical reasons why people have no other choice but to shelter in place. And I think it's super important. Like, obviously, with hindsight, we know that was the wrong choice. But, you know, people do have elderly people, ill people, heavily pregnant people.

We know that amongst the remains in Pompeii was a very heavily pregnant woman and the entire family stayed with her because she was about eight months or eight and a half months pregnant. She couldn't. She couldn't flee and the family decided to stay with her. And they all expired in one of the villas in Pompeii. It's a very famous sort of story, and I wanted to make sure that when we look at why people chose to shelter in place, we look at it from the complexity it deserves.

It wasn't just that people were silly. It wasn't just that they didn't know any better. It's that they also had to make choices based on the health and well being of the people around them. And one of the things that it's super hard to understand is just how difficult it would be to breathe if you were asthmatic, if you were elderly, every breath would be painful and it would be really difficult to walk. Yeah.

Jenni McMenamey
So that brings us to more about what happened to you if you sheltered in place. And again, to a lot of people, this might sound like a terrible option, but as Jen said, there were a lot of reasons people couldn't just run away in Pompeii. In Julians case, he had an elderly father and two small children. He was afraid they wouldn't make the journey out of the city. The journey out of Pompeii would be a fraught one with falling ash, pumice, and fire.

Buildings groaned and toppled under the weight of the falling debris. So there was all this falling debris, too. You like to think that it's just like super clear cut. Some people chose at the beginning to shelter in place and realized that was a bad idea when their roof started to cave in and then they tried leaving. If you were able to navigate your way out of the city with, say, a family of five, then you had to worry about being trampled by other fleeing refugees.

Like, if you have little kids, you had to worry about keeping up a pace to make sure your family was safe and together. And you had to contend with the very air you're breathing, air that was so dry and devoid of moisture that it threatened to dehydrate you with every step you took. Fleeing was an option, but not always the best option for some people. And I could so see how initially you don't know what a volcanic eruption is even, or what's happening. It might seem like sheltering in place is the safest option.

Sadly, sheltering in place was a terrible choice. We all know what happened to those who sheltered in place. Pompeii would be struck by several pyroclastic flows. This happened during the early morning hours of the, you know, 25 October. When does the eruption start, Jen?

It's like 10:00 a.m. or so. It's about 10:00 a.m. on the 24th, and it goes through the night. I think the final pyroclastic flow is either the early hours, just before dawn, or like, maybe around eight or 09:00 a.m.

Jen McMenamey
it's about 24 hours of eruption. Okay, so you're weathering 24 hours of eruption at the end of it. In the small hours, in the early morning hours of the next day, you get these pyroclastic flows. And these happen when the huge erupting gas cloud lost its energy and began to fall back down to earth. As the gas cloud fell, it brought with it one of the deadliest stages of the eruption.

Jenni McMenamey
These superheated columns of gas were what sealed the fate of the people of both Pompeii and Herculaneum, who chose to stay or were stuck there. This is a quote from an article on science.org. quote a pyroclastic flow is the wall of death that entombed the ancient roman city of Pompeii. These blackened, billowing clouds of 7000 degrees celsius gas, ash and rock thunder down the slopes of erupting volcanoes at speeds of up to 725 an hour, approximately, I'm guessing, incinerating and demolishing most everything in their path. Now, a new study finds pyroclastic flows owe their lethal speed and range to a cushion of air that forms beneath them.

National Geographic reports. This layer of air allows the ashen flow to float above the landscape, cutting down on friction and increasing the plumes of speed and distance. So there were several pyroclastic flows at the end stage of this eruption, but the first one would have been fatal. Here's what recent research tells us about this fatal part of the eruption. This is a quote from an article in the Guardian.

Jen McMenamey
Quote and I had to give you this because it tells you about, like, it's all the gross details Jenny wants about brains being boiled. That's what I want. That's what I live for. Quote the study by researchers from the Department of Earth and Geo Environmental Sciences of the University of Bari, in collaboration with the National Institute of Geophysics and Volcanography and the British Geological Survey in Edinburgh, has revealed the duration of the so called pyroclastic flow, a dense, fast moving flow of solidified lava pieces, volcanic ash and hot gases that hit the ancient roman city minutes after the volcano erupted. The lethal cloud had, quote within the quote, a temperature of over 100 degrees and was composed of CO2 chlorides, particles of incandescent ash and volcanic glass, said Roberto Izzaya, senior researcher of the Vesuvius Observatory of the INGV.

Jenni McMenamey
The aim of the work was to develop a model to try and understand and quantify the impact of pyroclastic flows on the inhabited area of Pompeii about 6 miles or 10 km from Vesuvius. He added. The study confirms that the inhabitants had no escape and most of those who died suffocated in their homes and beds or in the streets and squares of the city. Isaiah's model estimates the gases, ash and volcanic particles would have engulfed the city for between ten and 20 minutes. That's what happens if you shelter in place.

Kids. Yeah. After a day and a night of violent eruption, those who had chosen to stay in Pompeii would meet their end in about 15 minutes. Their end would have been brutal with superheated gases washing over them and freezing them in time and space forever. Their brains would have vitrified from the heat.

Jen McMenamey
Now you love a vitrification. You know I love vitrified brains, Jen. So at this point you've accepted the cup of wine, you've stayed the night at Julians and things did not work out well. I've chosen my fate. During the early morning hours, the first pyroclastic flow sweeps over the city, killing you instantly, vitrifying your brain and entombing your remains.

In time, you die with Julian and his whole family in 2000 years. Gentlemen, scholars, come along, pour plaster into the ash cavity your corpse made and cart it around to museums for people to stare and wonder at the end. I dont think im gonna accept that drink after all this rethinking, that cup of wine. Im glad you said no. Dionysus also approves in this instance.

Jenni McMenamey
Just in this instance though. Yeah. Now lets say you chose to leave Julians Villa before you accepted that cup of wine. As you exit, you untie the poor dog. Thank you.

Jen McMenamey
The beast deserves a right to find its own shelter in this storm. That's the most important part of this whole choose your own adventure is the dog lives. The dog lives, guys. That dog makes it. You begin to walk south, hoping to catch up with Marius.

But Marius is a good few hours ahead of you and the stream of refugees is intense. The crowds of people block the south gate and traffic seems to be at a standstill. You move along very slowly. Now you're unsure if this was a wise decision after all. Once you are through the gate, the traffic is still slow, but at least you're moving along at a decent pace.

By about 04:00 p.m. you make it to stabbyae. Though it's only about four and a half miles from Pompeii. You feel like you've been walking for days. Your throat is so dry you can barely breathe.

The lines of refugees have moved so slowly, sometimes completely immobile. After a bit of flaming debris hits the earth around you, you have wrapped your nose and mouth with a strip you've torn from your tunic. It does little to protect you from the brutal air, but it's better than nothing. As you arrive in stabiae, you're surprised to find a familiar face. Marius is sitting outside a well kept villa.

He smiles. You made it. You nod. I decided at the last moment to join you. Wise decision, old friend.

I'm going to take a moment's rest and continue onwards. If you are too tired, you are welcome to stay here at my friend's villa. But I have a strange feeling that is drawing me to continue my journey. Do you a, stay in the villa in Stabii or B continue on with Marius to the next town? You know, I've really had it with all these terrible roads and this horrible debris falling from the sky and ash clouds and the dirt and I can't breathe and it's really terrible.

Jenni McMenamey
I think I'm gonna stay here. I've gone far enough. That's a decision I can respect. Sadly, this is a poor decision. Many people thought they were safe in Stabii.

Jen McMenamey
So you're not alone in choosing to shelter here. One of the most famous victims of the eruption of Mount Vesuvius, Pliny the elder chose to spend the night in Stabii. It did not work out well for him. Pliny the elder was captain of the naval fleet in the area. He was staying with his sister and nephew in misenum and got a message from a woman named Rectina.

She was writing because she was in need of rescue. Pliny agreed to rescue her and also a friend who was living in Stabii. He launched a light ship and began the process of rescuing his friends. But the seas were very rough and by the time Pliny reached Stabiae it was clear he could not continue on with his journey. He delayed that evening in Stabii, preparing to set out in the morning.

Jenni McMenamey
But morning didn't come. The sun did not rise. Well, I mean, it did, but it was blocked by a huge ash cloud, so it seemed like it didn't rise in the morning. Realizing that the situation was now very fucking dire, Pliny set out for the beach to see if it was possible to escape the disaster by sea. But by now the seas were too rough.

The winds driving the boats onto shore and the vessels that Pliny had chosen for the rescue mission were too light to sail the ferocious waves. Pliny and many others died on the shores of the beach suffocated by toxic gas. It is very likely that had you stayed the night in Stavia, you would have also met your end via toxic gas the next morning during the final phase of the eruption. I might as well have just sheltered in place in Pompeii. Really?

Jen McMenamey
Exactly. Or you might have met your end hunkered down in an abandoned villa as the roof caved in from the weight of the rocks that fell on it that night. Or from the dry air and lack of water. I mean, there are just endless possibilities. The entire roof could have just caved in on you because there's no one to get the rocks off.

Or you could have been buried alive in entombed because the doorways fill up. I mean, yeah, it could have died on the road, just, you know, pummeled to death by the pumice that was falling from the sky. Right, exactly. So once again, you're dead. Bad choices?

Jenni McMenamey
Oh, no. But let's rewind. Let's say you make a different choice. Okay, so I think I'll continue on with Marius after stabii. After stabii.

Stabii. Are you saying stabby? I is that we're really saying? I keep saying stabby eye. I think it's right.

But, you know, I keep imagining someone getting stabbed in their eyeball. You know, who wants to stay in a place called stabby eye anyway? Marius, let's go. Let's get out of here. Okay.

Jen McMenamey
You and Marius continue to travel on. The roads are still filled with many weary travelers. But Marius sets a punishing pace. It is almost beyond your endurance, but somehow you keep up. Marius tells you it has now passed on, but there is no light, just more darkness.

You both keep stumbling forwards, not sure how much further you have to walk, only certain that you must keep pressing forward. And you do. You walk and walk. And finally there is an end to the ash cloud. You can start to see the sun.

Both of you laugh and cheer. Soon the air you are breathing is clear and cool. And you cannot help but hug each other and cry. You have survived Pompeii. I lived.

You did. On the third try. I lived on the third try of the first option. So you don't get a third try in real life. So one way you could survive is if you pressed on to the south, past stabby eye.

Jenni McMenamey
If you could make that really hard journey. And I actually think, Jen, correct me if I'm wrong, but this scenario that you've painted here is the more difficult way to survive. Because I left late. Right? Well, in this, we're assuming they left about everyone leaves at the same time.

Jen McMenamey
But, yes, at this point, when you chose not to stay at the villa, you kind of left it late. You should have left almost immediately. One of the things we know about this way is you could survive this way. It was a very long walk to be free of the ash cloud. It was a very crowded way.

A lot of people chose this way and a lot of people left, leaving the city too late and died along this way. And people got caught in the south gate. Theres like all these bottlenecks, which is another problem. Yeah, they would get trampled and everything else. You know, I found this quote@science.org comma, which talked about what happened to people who left it too late and got caught at those gates.

Jenni McMenamey
Because it sounds quite dire. The team examined seven plaster casts from Pompeii. Six were recovered from a city gate called porta nola. I couldnt figure out if this was the south gate or not, but lets just go with it. Its a gate.

The portanola bodies were positioned on top of a thick layer of pumice, which suggests that they survived the first phase of the eruption and had attempted to flee the city after the pumice had stopped falling. Wading through this debris would have been extremely difficult. One of the researchers, Gallello, says two victims suffered leg fractures, and another appears to have used a falling tree branch as a makeshift walking stick. So people were having leg fractures just trying to walk through this stuff. I feel like I tried to hammer this point home earlier.

Jen McMenamey
It wasn't safe to be outside. You could have a leg fracture. You could fall, you could be injured, you could be trampled. We all think run for it. But honestly, there was a lot of danger in just trying to run for it.

Jenni McMenamey
Mm hmm. Yeah, running for it would not necessarily seem like intuitively the best choice. Exactly.

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Jen McMenamey
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So let's backtrack. Let's go all the way to the beginning. When you and your friends are still deciding what to do. Do you shelter in place with Julian? We've, we've told you not to do this.

Jenni McMenamey
Don't do that. Don't do that. Do you go south with Marius? It's possible that you could survive as long as you don't take that pit stop and stabby eye. Do you go north with Phaedra towards the volcano, or go by sea with Helena?

You know what I think? This time I'm gonna do something completely different and go by sea. I support that you look between your friends. Not sure what the right choice is. You finally turn to Helena.

Jen McMenamey
Let's go to the harbor. I'd rather take my chances on the seas. Helena smiles. Agreed. You rush to the harbor.

The earth has stopped shaking, but the seas are roiled up. They rock back and forth across the earth, slapping it violently. You are not sure that it will be possible to launch a ship in such tumultuous waves. Helena stands on her tiptoes looking for her friend. She spots a shock of bright red hair and then leaps up.

There. That's him. Come on, we have to hurry. She grabs your hand and you race in the direction she pointed. You dodge the waves of people, also hurrying towards boats.

Helena, arent you a sight for sore eyes, Helenas friend says, Felix. Im so grateful that youre still here. He nods. Its a good thing you move so quickly. We have to get out of the harbor now.

The waves are very rough and the wind is moving inland. If we delay even a few moments, I fear we will be stuck here. He is keeping something from you. You're not sure how you know it, but you do. Something about what he doesn't say makes you wary.

Come. I've got room for two more on my ship. Do you join Helena on the ship or remain on the dock? I don't like that thing about something he's not saying. But I don't like the idea of remaining on this dock either.

Jenni McMenamey
So I guess I'm getting on the boat. Okay. You squash your worries and decide to board the ship with Helena. You've made this crossing before to Capri and other places. While you don't love ships, you think you can manage this voyage if it means fleeing Pompeii.

Jen McMenamey
The seas rock and roll beneath you. The waves are huge and come crashing into the shore, pushing the boat closer and closer to the dock. The wind is against you. All of the rowers are already straining, trying to get the big ship to move out of the harbor. It seems like a losing battle.

Felix is pacing the deck, shouting orders. His eyes are wide with terror. Now. Get her out of the harbor now, before it's too late. But it seems an impossible task.

The surf is an impenetrable wall. Helena looks at you. Both of you pitch forward suddenly as the boat surges forward towards the other moored boats, nearly smacking into them. Go. Felix screams, and somehow the boat moves forward against all reasoning.

It crests the waves and you are free from the harbor. Your progress is slow, but forward. Felix wipes his forehead with his hand. Make for Capri. Keep away from the shores.

That's where the waves will come from. For a moment you're not sure you understand what he's talking about. Waves? What waves? Aren't you sailing on the waves?

You don't understand what he means until it is too late. You feel the sea beneath the deck buck and roll violently, like a sea monster is rearing up beneath you. You almost topple over. Helena reaches for your elbow and turns you around. You are now both watching Pompeii.

The city is burning. It's an otherworldly red in the distance. Helena points and you watch as the largest wave you've ever seen. A wave larger than a mountain, rises up and swallows the city of Pompeii. First the harbor, and then it rushes through the streets, drowning everything in its path.

Faster, lads. Felix screams. Where there's one wave, there will be another. Felix hands you each a broom. Sweep the decks.

We cannot afford to have any ash on the decks, or the entire ship could sink. You and Helena grasp each other's hands and say prayers to the earth shaker to the gods of the sea, and pray and hope for safe passage. Then you begin to sweep. You sweep for hours, keeping the deck as clear as possible. The ship rolls back and forward, and a few times you are certain it will sink.

But somehow, somehow you may get safely through the eruption. The captain has put you mostly out to sea to avoid the worst of the great waves, but you are never so happy as when you are finally able to disembark on the island of Capri the next day. I enjoy true crime podcasts as much as the next person, but I think weve all experienced losing sleep when an episode hits just a little too close to home. With ADT, get 24/7 peace of mind knowing that your home is protected by the most trusted name in home security. With nearly 150 years of experience, reliability, and safety innovations, ADT is a tried and true smart home security system that over 6 million Americans trust.

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Jenni McMenamey
So let's break this one down. It is tough to know if you could actually escape by sea. And personally, I think that Jen's prognosis is a bit optimistic here. This is the biggest fanfic I've written. I don't know if you could escape by sea.

Jen McMenamey
I'd like to think you could. I think it was an option. But there are a lot of things we don't understand about what was going on in the sea that day. Exactly. And just the, you know, I'm just imagining the waves pummeling the shores and then the tsunamis coming and like the, you know, all the same pumice and ash that's landing on people on the roads is landing on you at sea.

Jenni McMenamey
Like, I just can't imagine the boats that, any boats getting out? Maybe a few did. Maybe this is one of the lucky ones. But it's, it's hard for me to imagine. So we know a lot of people tried to escape by sea.

And in theory some were maybe successful, possibly, but there was a lot going against them. A safe exit by sea. Well, this is some of Jen's fanfic, as she said, because in theory it would have been possible, but you would have had to get very, very lucky to escape this way. You really would have had to thread a needle here and for a variety of reasons. First, as we've been saying the whole time the winds were against you, the winds were blowing into shore, the winds during this time of year, autumn, were going with autumn, were blowing inland towards Pompeii.

And this made it a great time for ferrying goods into port, less fun for trying to get out of port because the winds were against you. That meant you need a ship that could cut through the waves and had enough people power at the oars to make it out of the harbor. I mean, obviously sails were not going to work here. No, sails are utterly useless unless you want to continue crashing into other boats that are parked in dock. Right.

The boat that Jen has chosen to use, correct me if I'm wrong, is a heavy merchant vessel with a lot of rowers, which would have been probably the boat that gives you the best chance, I'm guessing. Right. That is indeed the boat. That is the boat of my fan fiction dreams. We just don't have the research to know that people made it out this way.

Jen McMenamey
Although in theory it is possible some people did, but not many. The body trail is non evident at sea. Well, it's so ancient and you're talking ancient tsunamis and things like that, there's just no way of knowing. Right. Another of the big problems, in addition to the wind is that the actual seas would have been extremely rough.

Jenni McMenamey
There were earthquakes going on. All of those earthquakes that surrounded this eruption made for very, very rough seas. We know that there were a few tsunamis that hit Pompeii during the eruption cycle. Pliny explicitly describes one in that cold open that we read in order to safely escape, you would have had a tinier voyage just right. Going between eruptions and heading mostly straight out to sea.

Staying too close to any shoreline would be a problem should more tsunamis happen, particularly at night. I mean, if you're by the shore, you're toast. You have to go out to sea. And just as a reminder, the boats at the time were not boats that were, you know, sea going vessels so much like they were rowing boats that tended to stay close to shore. So that's pretty iffy, just in general.

So fleeing by sea was a dangerous method of survival. And the captain would have had to make some counterintuitive choices here. Even if you could get clear of the treacherous waves, just of the surf and the winds, there would have been ash and burning rock falling on the ships. That's super treacherous. We know many people did not make it out of Pompeii, Herculaneum, or Stabii by sea.

Jen McMenamey
We know because we have found their bodies at the docks, preserved in ash. We know less about what happened to people who did go by sea. It's likely many of them did not survive either because of how dangerous and rough the seas were. You would have to be super lucky. Escape by sea was very unlikely, but in theory, possible if you got incredibly lucky.

Jenni McMenamey
So in this version, let's say that I trust my gut. I decide that I don't like what Felix isn't saying. I decide to stay on the beach, which I already know is a bad idea because you've said it. But let's say that's what I decide. Okay, b, you stayed on the dock.

Jen McMenamey
This soon turns out to be a very poor choice. You watch as the water draws back from beneath the pierde. As the water continues to peel back, you can see fish and the naked seabed. You've never seen the like of this before. And then you hear the screams all around you.

People are pointing out to the distance as a wave bigger than a mountain begins to rumble its way to shore. People are running, screaming, trampling each other to get out of the way of the rising sea. And you can do nothing. Your feet are glued to the ground as you watch the wave rising from the depths of the ocean come to meet the shore and swallow it whole. Well, that didn't end well.

Jenni McMenamey
I mean, I told you, hindsight is 2020, Jen. That is sort of the moral of like the story of Pompeii. Everyone can make the right choice if you know what the wrong ones are.

Jen McMenamey
Okay, so we rewind. You're standing in Pompeii on the morning of the eruption. You have choices. To the sea with Helena. We saw how that ended.

Shelter in place with Julian, south with Marius, or north with Phaedra. I really don't like that north situation. So here's what I'm going to try and do. I'm going to go south with Marius right away. That worked out for me last time, and I think starting even earlier is better.

Okay, south with Marius. I'll come with you. Marius. Let's get out of the city while there's still time. Marius nods.

Wrap your face and mouth with cloth, he says, tearing off a piece of his tunic to do so. There is something strange with this air and I don't think it would do well to breathe it in. You agree and do the same. The city is an utter chaos. Most people are fleeing to their homes and towards the south gate.

The south gate leads away from the mountains to Stabii and beyond. You glance over your shoulder and look at the thundering mountain behind you. You wish you hadn't looked back. The mountain is a looming black tower of darkness. A huge cloud shaped like a pine tree rises from the mountain and high into the sky.

It blocks out all the light. But the mountain makes its own light. Red flames light the volcano. Lava slowly oozes down the sides of the mountain. Far away from this distance it's only red streaks.

Volcanic lightning illuminates the dark cloud above the mountain. And even here in the center of town, the ash and stones have begun to rain down. You know that Phaedra was headed towards the north gate, towards the mountain and you think it must have been madness that drove her in that direction. Marius grew up in Pompeii and knows the streets here like the back of his hand. He nimbly dodges in and out of the heavy traffic, avoiding falling stones and crowds.

Soon you are at the south gate. You manage to slip out before the streams of refugees. But Marius does not slow his pace. We can stop when we reach Stabii, he says. It rapidly becomes dark as night.

You stumble forward in the darkness. You pass others like you, refugees fleeing the city. They all have the same dazed expressions. Some are moving quickly, others slowly, causing long lines and traffic jams. A few times you almost stop seeing a woman or child struggling to keep the pace of the crowds.

But Marius shakes his head and drags you along. This is survival and you cannot stop. Along the way you find a branch and are able to craft a makeshift torch. It is crucial as the ground before you is uneven and has had some damage from the last earthquake. You do not know how many hours have passed.

Only that every bone in your body aches and you want to lie down. Your breathing becomes labored. The air is so dry and you regret not stopping to pick up water. You catch up to Marius and tap his shoulder. I can't breathe.

I can't swallow. I need water. Marius eyes are red rimmed and wild. He shakes his head just a little longer. We're almost to stabbyi.

You are not sure you can make it any further. You shake your head and sit down on the ground the exhaustion overtakes you. Marius shakes you roughly and places a cold rag on your forehead. You are not sure where this came from or how he made this miracle happen, but it is enough to rouse you. You continue to walk forward, making it to Stabii.

You are utterly exhausted and feel like you cannot go on. What is the point? The world is in ruins. Marius looks angry. Something feels strange here.

I do not think we are safe, and I do not think we can afford to delay. My friend's villa is just over there if you want to rest for the night. But I will be carrying on. Do you rest at the villa or carry on? We know both of these outcomes, and I'm not going to recap them.

One of the things I didn't add into the complications is we're assuming you're an able bodied person who's well and capable of walking and doesn't have any accidents befall them along the way. Right? That also increases your chances of survival. While I'm not going to recap these options, we know what happens both way. I want to talk about what we know about the people who fled south.

The people who fled south probably thought they were safe once they reached Stabii, but they weren't. The pyroclastic flows and fallout from the eruption did eventually reach Stabii. The seas here were too rough to sail, so Stabii was not a safe place to wait out the eruption. We know that the majority of people who perished fleeing the eruption died fleeing south via the south gate. And that's because this is where most of those bodies were found.

Jenni McMenamey
As we said before, you know, we painted a picture of people breaking their legs trying to get through the south gate, trying to walk through the pumice. And now, there are many reasons why this bottleneck at the south gate and along the south path happened. So, first off, the south seemed like the safest path of escape. It's the most intuitive. It's away from the volcano.

And every step in that direction should have been a step closer to safety. Second, the winds were blowing inland and south, and that meant that the ash cloud and danger was also blowing inland and south, meaning that traveling south meant you inhaled more fumes and fallout. I mean, people wouldn't have known this necessarily, but that's how it worked out. This would make breathing super difficult if you were heading south, for a start. And it also means that all that pumice, ash, and rock would continuously fall on you throughout your journey, weighing you down, even crushing you, possibly fracturing your leg bones.

What's interesting about this is that it looks like going north was heading into the gullet, but actually going south maybe would have been heading into the gullet. Based on how the wind was going. Yes. So while you could escape this way, you had to be quick, you had to pack light, and you had to be able to pick your way out of bottlenecks and through crowds. But despite all of these issues, as long as you kept going south and you could move fast, that's key.

And you were able bodied, you had a chance of survival. You are better off leaving sooner rather than later. No second guessing, absolutely none. And just don't stop. Just keep walking until you drop.

Jen McMenamey
As someone who did a half marathon, when I got finished with that half marathon, I was so done. And in order to be safe in a lot of these places, you would have to walk the equivalent of a half marathon or a full marathon. Let's go all the way back to the beginning. So far, we've tried going south, we've tried sheltering in place, we've tried to escape by safe. Theres only one option we havent tried north.

Straight into the flaming gullet of that sexy volcano. I mean, this still seems like a real bad idea. It really does. Ill go north with Phaedra, you say. All of your friends look at you as if youve gone mad.

All except Phaedra. The roads to the north are better maintained, she explains, and the wind is blowing towards the south. All we have to do is keep walking to Naples. We should be safe there. Your friends look horrified.

Phaedra, you are talking about walking right into the path of that mountain, of the eruption. That is madness. Phaedra shakes her head. Trust me. And you do you stop on your way out of the city at Phaedra's home and grab a hunk of bread, cheese, a torch and a small water skin.

You take nothing else. Phaedra sets a grueling pace and you exit the city by 10:30 a.m. the roads between Naples and Pompeii are indeed well maintained. Even with the damage from the most recent eruption, you are able to easily follow the path. The air here is oppressively hot and dry.

It's hard to breathe. You've covered your mouth and nose with a torn bit of your tunic. Not as many people are fleeing in this direction, but some follow you, thinking maybe you know a way to safety. So there are not as many refugees on this path, right. Well, we don't actually know how many took this path or not.

And this path is an interesting path for a reason. We're going to come to in a minute. I don't want to spoil it, but a lot of people would probably not have thought to run in this direction. It is indeed running into the direction closest to the mountain. You have to pass quite close to the mountain in order to get to Naples.

Jenni McMenamey
Right. And also, like, the air is very hot and close and hard to breathe. But was there the level of pumice and ash falling on you in this direction like there was in the south? Yes, there was absolutely pumice and ash falling down here on YouTube. You probably would have had more flaming projectiles because you were a little bit closer to the mountain.

Jen McMenamey
You might have been able to see lava in the distance. A lot of people freak out and think, like, lava is the most destructive part of a volcanic eruption, and it is incredibly destructive. But lava is actually quite slow moving. You can usually outpace lava unless it's coming from, like, a really steep incline or it has something else speeding it along. Like, one of the things that was super deadly about the Mount St.

Helens eruption was because it was a snow covered mountain. When it erupted, the lava melted snow, which created these, I think they're called lahars, which are fast moving rivers of, like, water and snow and mud and everything else. That wouldn't have been the case here in Pompeii. You would have had lava. It probably would have been slow moving.

Jenni McMenamey
Gotcha. Okay, so things are pretty deadly here as well, but the roads are better and possibly not as crowded. Exactly. You arrive at Herculaneum, a seaside resort town, at about 01:00 p.m. herculaneum is just 4 miles from Vesuvius.

Jen McMenamey
This close, the mountain looks like a monster, a creature sent down from the gods to devour you whole. Even with the mountain so close, you can't catch your breath. You motion to Phaedra that you need to take a break. Phaedra shakes her head. This is the most dangerous part of the journey.

She says, we have to be quick through here. We are too close to the mountain. Do you take a break or continue on with Phaedra? I think I just need a little break, not a long one, just a few minutes to catch my breath. Okay, so you take your break.

You understand the logic of Phaedra's words, but you cannot move. I will catch up to you. You say you sit for a few moments. You cannot gulp in this air. It is too heavy and dry.

Instead, you take shallow breaths, trying to get your body ready for the rest of the journey. You are not sure how long you've sat here, but it feels like a while. Your eyes turn to the mountain and notice something strange. You see the slow flowing lava and also something else. A wall of ash rolling off the mountain like an avalanche.

You barely have time to register what you're seeing before the cloud of superheated gas consumes you. So lessons of this episode. Never take a break. Never take a break. Even if you can't breathe, even for just a few minutes.

Jenni McMenamey
Believe it or not, following Phaedra and traveling north was a very smart idea. But stopping here at Herculaneum, even for a few minutes, would be a huge mistake. This is a quote from an excellent wired article about how to survive a volcano. The quote is by Cody Cassidy, and it breaks down all the directions you could take to survive and why north is probably the best way to safety. Herculaneum sits barely 5 miles east of the volcanic vent.

But for the first few hours of the eruption, the prevailing winds largely spare it from most of the ash and pumice. Unfortunately, when Vesuvius first taps into the deeper magma and develops its first pyroclastic flow, the heated gas and ash will move directly into Herculaneum and kill everyone almost instantly. Archaeologists have found scorch marks in the city that suggest the cloud may have been as hot as 930 degrees fahrenheit. And because its victims were encased in negative spaces of ashev, archaeologists can see their final frozen poses. These poses show almost no signs of the boxer like defensive stance, typically taken in extreme heat, which suggests to Petrone that the victims in Herculaneum may have been killed so quickly that they did not even consciously register discomfort.

Petrone even found a glassy piece of brain matter in the skull of one herculaneum victim, suggesting that the cloud heated this person's brain so quickly, it vitrified. Vitrified, glassy brain. This is my favorite kind of brain, babe. It's crunchy. So, yeah, taking a break is a bad idea.

Jen McMenamey
Now, the timing of your escape here is key, because going north would only be a safe way to escape during the first few hours of the eruption. This wired article theorized that the first pyroclastic flow that wiped out herculaneum happened around 02:00 p.m. so essentially, you had until 02:00 p.m. to get through herculaneum and be on the other side of the eruption, you would have to move quickly. It's a 13 miles walk from Pompeii to Naples, and you have a ticking clock or exploding volcano that is waiting to consume you.

And when I was reading this article, I think it posited that you needed to have a pace of something like three to 4 miles an hour in order to make it through well into Naples and safety by the time of the final eruption. That isn't a jog, and it's not speed walking. It is a brisk walk, but it's a brisk walk through some pretty harrowing conditions. Not as harrowing as a south gate, but pretty harrowing. Yeah.

And I would say this. This is assuming you have no problems, the roads are safe. You can get around people. Like, making those three to 4 miles an hour is a decent clip that you have to move along, and you have to not get exhausted and fall over and stop. And you also have to be able to get there, like, who knows what the road would have looked like?

Jenni McMenamey
You can maintain a brisk walk for a while, but can you maintain a brisk walk unbroken, with no breaks at all, no water breaks, nothing for 13 miles. Exactly. So, Jenny, you're gonna carry on and chance it to get to Naples. I think that's the last chance left to me. So you and Phaedra continue on.

Jen McMenamey
You do not stop at herculaneum. Instead, you press forward. It's only another 5 miles until you can be in the safety of Phaedra's sister's home. You walk through the day that feels like an endless night. You turn briefly and see a cloud of ash rolling off the mountain like an avalanche, rolling down the slopes and toward Herculaneum.

You are grateful that Phaedra shamed you into carrying on. Night falls. You stumble forward in the darkness, following the weak light of your torch. You almost cannot believe when the air begins to change. Both you and Phaedra rip off the layers of cloth you've put on your mouth to protect yourself from the ash and gulp in deep, greedy breaths.

You rub your eyes, convinced they must be deceiving you. But you can almost see the sky, the actual sky. It's dark and inky black, but you know it's the sky and not the ash cloud. Both of you whoop with joy, your hearts lifted as you practically jog the final mile to Phaedra's sister's house. The entire household is already awake when you arrive.

Refugees have been streaming into Naples all day. Phaedra's sister hugs both of you. She tells you that she prayed to the gods for your deliverance. You do not have the heart to tell her the horrors youve seen or the fact that you doubt the gods intervened on your behalf. You look at Phaedra.

Thank you. You saved my life. So there you have it. Evidence that you could have survived Pompeii. The best way out was most likely north.

And if you were very lucky and very quick, and you made all the right choices, you had a couple of options. You could have made all the right choices in a few different directions, but you would have really had to maintain that pace in very challenging circumstances. And it's not just that, like, you had to be able bodied, but you also had to be very lucky. You did. It's a miracle anyone made it away from this volcanic eruption, because the eruption of Pompeii was incredibly deadly and ferocious.

This is another quote from that excellent wired article which breaks down the eruption. A volcano's explosive power largely depends on how it's magma formed, which, contrary to what one might assume, is not from the earth's molten core. Instead, it's created when unusual heat or circumstances contrive to melt the mantle or lower crust. Because pressure increases the melting point of the mantle by strengthening its chemical bonds, the mantle is almost entirely solid. Even in the extreme heat of the lower depths, magma creation requires something unusual.

Jenni McMenamey
It requires either unusual heat, an unusual drop in pressure, or an unusual pollutant, generally water, to enter the mantle that lowers its melting temperature. This is so volcano nerdy right now. I know. I love it. You have to give me just a little volcano nerd.

What is a mantle? Okay, so, all right, all right, all right. Coming back in here. So what it's saying is once the water and the heat combine to partially melt the rock of the mantle, it's the different layers in the earth's crust is what they're talking about. Okay, this is lava below the earth's crust.

Gotcha. It's below. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so we're talking about what is happening to this mantle. Yeah.

Jen McMenamey
Essentially, when water and other things begin to get in there. Right. And it's bad. It's really. It's not good.

Jenni McMenamey
Right. So water lowers the melting temperature of rock by weakening its chemical bonds. Water does to rock what salt does to an icy road. Your worrisome situation in Vesuvius can be blamed on the latter, which is the process responsible for many of the world's most powerful volcanoes. The intrusion of water is the result of an oceanic plate sliding beneath a continental one.

In this case, the sliver of the african plate covering the adriatic sea slid and indeed continues to slide. Let's be clear. Beneath the eurasian plate along Italy's east coast. In slabs beneath oceans, a small amount of water can infiltrate into their structure. And because water lowers a plate's melting temperature, this seemingly innocuous seepage is the first step of an incredibly volatile reaction that has led to some of the most catastrophic eruptions in history.

See Krakatoa, 1883. My nerdom loves the Krakatoa eruption. Jen loves that krakatoa. Let me tell you what. Anyway, so once the water and heat combine to partially melt the rock of the mantle, the lighter magma bubbles to the surface, melts the surrounding crust, and picks up new components.

This doesn't always increase a volcano's destructive power, but as luck would have it, Mount Vesuvius is located on a thick bed of limestone. Lucky us. Limestone and heat results in the volcanically unfortunate combination of calcium oxide and CO2. In other words, standing in Pompeii places you in the hazard zone of carbonated magma. Which sure does sound bad, Jen.

Not exactly sure I understood all that, but it sounds like bad news. Its super bad news. So the eruption of Mount Vesuvius was, uh, vei five, one of the most deadly eruptions recorded, mostly because of how many people live so close to the volcano. And of course, its easy to think, well, why live near a volcano? Most of them usually go off at some point in time, dont they?

Jen McMenamey
And while that is true, living near a volcano had many benefits. Rich soil, perfect for growing crops, hot springs, et cetera. And we still do today. Look, living on the east coast of America is not a great idea with the North Atlantic hurricane season. We just got through tropical storm Idalia, and yet we all live here.

Jenni McMenamey
I mean, climate change is certainly shaking things up, but we continue to live in the path of various natural disasters. And you never know when the next one's going to hit. It could be not for a thousand years, it could be tomorrow. We don't know. Yeah, there are benefits to living near a volcano, and most of the time, they outweigh the cons.

Jen McMenamey
It's why so many people today still live near volcanoes. Mount Vesuvius erupts in cycles. The last major eruption was in 1944. It will erupt again. And the people of Naples live in the shadow of this threat.

Mount Vesuvius has erupted 50 times, including the famous eruption in 79 ADHD and a prehistoric eruption that wiped an entire settlement off the map. I wanted to pause here because it's possible that this eruption was actually preserved in that legend I mentioned earlier. Diodorus Siculus tells us the phlegrian plain or the plain of fire from a hill which anciently vomited out fire, now called Vesuvius. Hercules passed through this plain during his labors on his way to Sicily. I wonder if this story of Hercules, his mention of this plane of fire, ties back to the ancient people who died here when the mountain erupted and turned the fields to flames.

It's just a thought. How long ago was that older eruption, Jan? I couldn't find the dates but it's, well, prehistoric, like stone age. Wow. So I wanted to end this episode with Pliny's words, just as we began, because I cannot help coming back to the words of this survivor.

Pliny waited many years to write down his account of the eruption of Mount Vesuvius. He sent them in two different letters to Tacitus with the belief that these accounts would be recorded by Tacitus and make his uncle's death famous. But these accounts did more than just that. They helped us to understand volcanic eruptions. They are still incredibly valuable and important all these centuries later.

So let's let the immortal words of Pliny close out this episode. Jenny, take it away. It now grew rather lighter, which we imagined to be rather the forerunner of an approaching burst of flames, as in truth it was, than the return of day. However, the fire fell at a distance from us. Then again, we were immersed in thick darkness and a heavy shower of ashes rained upon us, which we were obliged every now and then to stand up, to shake off.

Jenni McMenamey
Otherwise we should have been crushed and buried in the heat of. I might boast that during all this scene of horror, not a sigh or expression of fear escaped me. Had not my support been grounded in that miserable, though mighty consolation that all mankind were involved in the same calamity, and that I was perishing with the world itself. At last, this dreadful darkness was dissipated by degrees like a cloud or smoke. The real day returned and even the sun shone out, though with a lurid light, like when an eclipse is coming on.

Every object that presented itself to our eyes, which were extremely weakened, seemed changed, being covered deep with ashes as if with snow. We returned to misenum, where we refreshed ourselves as well as we could and passed an anxious night between hope and fear, though indeed with a much larger share of the latter. For the earthquake still continued, while many frenzied persons ran up and down, heightening their own and their friends calamities by terrible predictions. However, my mother and I, notwithstanding the danger we had passed and that which still threatened us, had no thoughts of leaving the place till we could receive some news of my uncle. So the mother lived.

That's good. Pliny and his mother made choices. They both lived because they did not go to Stabii. Unfortunately, Pliny the elder did go to stabby and did not live. So that's it for this week.

Jen McMenamey
Come say hello on social. We're ancient history. Fangirl on Instagram, Facebook threads, and TikTok. And while Twitter is still circling the drain, we continue to remain there. I'm not calling it x.

Jenni McMenamey
I refuse to call it x. Never gonna happen. We're at ancient hist fan there. We also have a Patreon. It's patreon.com ancienthistoryfangirl our patreon is literally what keeps the podcast going.

Jen McMenamey
It keeps the lights on. So please, if you're able, patronage starts such as $3 a month. You get access to many extra episodes and you're gonna get to hear us have lots of guests on and watch the last days of Pompeii. We don't have any Patreon members to thank this week, so if you would like to be thanked in the next episode, now is your chance to sign up. Thank you so much and we will see you, possibly, depending on our schedule, we don't know what's happening day to day next week.

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Saturday Matinee: Ancient History Fangirl

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Episode Chapters

1: Introduction to the Adventure

2: The Eruption Begins

3: To Flee or Not to Flee

4: The Aftermath

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