Mastering Your Cap Table with Joshua Lee of Ardius

This episode focuses on the intricacies of cap tables and maximizing tax credits for startups, featuring insights from Joshua Lee, founder and CEO of Ardius.

1. Cap tables are crucial for understanding equity distribution and the impact of fundraising on ownership.
2. Startups often overlook potential tax credits and deductions that could save them significant amounts of money.
3. Founders need to be well-informed about their cap tables to avoid dilution surprises and ensure fair equity distribution.
4. Ardius helps automate the detection of unclaimed tax benefits, which is especially beneficial for startups without comprehensive accounting resources.
5. Practical knowledge of tax codes can significantly benefit startups in maximizing their financial resources.

1. Introduction to Joshua Lee

Joshua Lee discusses his background and the inception of Ardius, emphasizing the importance of a solid understanding of tax codes and cap tables in the startup ecosystem. Joshua Lee: "I've always said you need a great lawyer and a great accountant."

2. The Birth of Ardius

Detailed exploration of how Ardius was created to address the unmet needs of startups in claiming tax deductions and credits efficiently. Joshua Lee: "It's basically free money."

3. Importance of Cap Tables

Discussion on the critical role of cap tables in managing equity, understanding dilution, and the overall financial planning for startups. Joshua Lee: "You've never looked at your cap table?"

4. Strategic Tax Planning

Insights into strategic tax planning and its impact on startups' financial health. Lee underscores the potential savings from proper tax management. Joshua Lee: "How do you know if you've maximized everything?"

5. Conclusion and Future Directions

Wrap-up of the discussion with thoughts on the future of financial management for startups and the evolving landscape of startup funding. Ethan Cole: "Thank you, Joshua, for these invaluable insights."

1. Review Your Cap Table Regularly: Ensure you understand every entry on your cap table to avoid surprises during fundraising or exits.
2. Explore Tax Credits and Deductions: Consult with tax professionals to ensure you are not leaving money on the table.
3. Educate Your Team on Equity and Finance: Regular training sessions on financial literacy can empower your team and align goals.
4. Leverage Financial Software: Tools like Ardius can automate the detection of financial opportunities and risks.
5. Plan for Long-Term Financial Health: Strategic financial planning should be a core aspect of your business strategy.

"You need a great lawyer and you need a great accountant. Those two things are inevitable. But they look at me and I go, 'Oh, you've never looked at your cap table."

Joshua Lee, CEO and Founder of Ardius explores the vital importance of cap tables in managing startups and guiding investment decisions, in this episode of Founders In LA. With his deep background in accounting and building ventures, Joshua sheds light on the typical challenges and the strategic value of keeping cap tables clean and detailed. He outlines potential issues entrepreneurs may encounter, such as dilution, valuation discrepancies, and investor expectations, offering insightful advice on how to tackle these hurdles. Through practical examples and personal stories, Joshua highlights the need for transparency and meticulous planning in venture relationships and the growth of startups. This episode is a valuable resource for both founders and investors, providing practical tips on how to understand and use cap tables to drive successful business outcomes.

People

Joshua Lee, Ethan Cole

Companies

Ardius

Content Warnings:

None

Joshua Lee

I've always said you need a great lawyer and you need a great accountant. Those two things are like inevitable. But they look at me and I go, oh, you've never looked at your captain.

Ethan Cole

Hey everybody, thank you for joining us and welcome to the Founders in LA podcast. I'm your host, Ethan Cole, and this is an opportunity to shine the spotlight through a product lens on some of the exceptional founders we have as part of the LA community in an unedited one take organic conversation. With us in the studio today is Joshua Lee. Hey Joshua. Really excited to have you here.

Joshua Lee

Hey Ethan. I've always wanted to do that. I didn't notice that until now, but hey Ethan, I'm glad to be here. Happy to be here on the radio. The founders in La station, amazing XFL.

I'm a big fan, number one. So I've listened to the podcast. I had some friends who were founders on the podcast and now to be in the hot seat is amazing. Thank you for having me turn us. Into a morning radio show soon enough.

Ethan Cole

But first, a word from our sponsors. We're brought to you by Nearshure. Nearshare is a trailblazer in nearshore outsourcing and staff augmentation. With over 15 years of experience offering exceptional latin american software development, data talent, product design and talent for us companies, Nearshare has revolutionized the way that companies scale their teams. They stand apart with 50% female leadership, are trusted by companies large and small, and have been helping us customers grow since before nearsharing was cool.

Discover how nearshare can power your tech goals and help you stay lean while scaling fast. Learn more at www.nairsure.com that's www dot na sure.com. We're also brought to you by Unida. Unida Club is a co working space that sets itself apart with locations in El Segundo, Manhattan beach and Hermosa. United is where creativity flourishes.

Unlike traditional offices, they provide an inspiring environment where ideas can thrive and businesses can grow. With Unida, there's no hidden fees, flexible terms, options for dedicated offices and unlimited access to conference rooms, a photo studio, this podcast studio plus stand in 3d printers and 24/7 access and end their locations. Their local champions who support neighborhood businesses, open their event spaces to nonprofits and celebrate art, music and culture. Join Unida club and experience co working like never before. Learn more at www dot Unida dot Club our guest today is Joshua Lee.

He is the co founder, the founder and CEO of Ardius. Hey Josh, can you among a number of other companies, Josh could you please give us a 32nd description of Ardius? Yeah, it's basically free money. So everybody stop what they're doing and listen to this. So, basically, we all love taxes, right?

Joshua Lee

Now, I think that's an oxymoron. How do you know if you've claimed every single credit and every deduction on your tax returns? I mean, it's ironic when we're filming this, it just passed. But that's what we do. We're trying to figure out if you've claimed everything that's eligible to you, right?

And if you have claimed it, how do you know you've maximized everything? So, what we've done is, our thesis is we wanted to codify the internal revenue code. I know that sounds so sexy, right? But the internal revenue code is a bunch of rules and algorithms. And so what we've done is we've taken data inputs from your payroll, from your general ledger, and from your tax returns, put it through a algorithm, and we've flagged everything that we think you've missed in form of a credit or deduction.

And if you've already claimed it, there's a good likelihood maybe you're not maximizing it. So that's what our software, ARDs, does. It's something that we thought was practical for even as an investor, as companies are asking for more checks. Or, like, have you maximized every single dollar on your tax return? And they're like, no, because we don't either have a bookkeeper yet, or we're not sure what things we qualify for.

So we actually built the software, ironically, for our own portfolio company out of our own venture studio. And so that was where ARds was born.

Ethan Cole

The US tax code is so ripe with these little places where you could probably do more if you know where to look. Which is why you'll have the fortune ten companies spending $0 on taxes, because they just know where to find all these things. And I imagine why a lot of the people who. A lot of SMBs and smaller companies probably aren't using as much of it as they could, because they just don't know better. So giving them an easy button, you know, connecting directly to their books, that was easy.

Joshua Lee

Yeah. It's funny, because when I. Most conversations with startups and SMBs, you know, say, ethan, where, you know, can I talk to your bookkeeper? And they're like, sure, honey. Right?

And it's like someone's significant other. Maybe it's her spouse, maybe it's someone's neighbor slash uncle or auntie. And it's like, oh, no one's actually taking a look at, at your books yet, you know? And so, so, a little bit about me and my background. I came from one of the big four accounting firms.

It was big five back in our day, but I was at Ernst and young, I was doing taxes. So I'm a CPA by trade, kind of get into the journey, but that's where I started. Please. Yeah. And so did that for twelve and a half years.

So by all accounts, a historian. Most people, on average, stay three or four years, but I stayed twelve and a half years and loved taxes. That's what made me a tax nerd. And so for me, this is breathing, like finding free money, making sure that we're maximizing everything. That was literally.

Yeah, looks like a nature to me. So going into startups, and we'll get into how I made that jump, but going into startups, this is like a pot of gold. I'm like, no one's really looked at this stuff. And so, you're right, this was at the big four. Most people who can maximize these things, or even democratize or know about it, you're paying.

I don't know, my bill rate was like, what, 1250 an hour? That's $1,250, not $12. Yeah, even I thought I was a rip off at the time. Right, so. But, but how would you have found some of these things if you don't have accessibility to that information?

So that's why we figured software would be the best fit, because, you know, we're in an election year. Republicans, Democrats, doesn't matter. Right? People are loving innovation. They want to get this money into the free, you know, free money into the hands of the SMBs and startups, but they'll throw everything very controversial underneath, you know, these bills.

And so that's where it sometimes stalls. Or people don't know if the law is changing, but everyone wants, you know, businesses to do well, so no one's going to be against that. Right? So. And everyone hates overpaying, especially when you didn't have to.

Ethan Cole

And so that's fascinating. So you were able to create rds to help solve your own problem.

Where did you get the bug? Like, where did this all start? I believe at this point, it's like you're nine startups in. So where did the first one come from and when did that start? Yeah, so literally, I mean, it started at Ernst and Young.

Joshua Lee

I was fortunate enough to work with one of, like, I think, best entrepreneurs. Right? I mean, true, they were already fortune, you know, 100 companies participated with entrepreneur of the year. That's one of Ernst and Young's, you know, programs to highlight the best entrepreneurs. And I would spend time with these entrepreneurs.

I would spend time with my clients. I'd spend time with my founders, right. Where I'm helping them. And it was such a contrast. Such a contrast.

I came from a very, very conservative background, both fiscally and financially, and even personality. So culturally, you know, self praise was no praise. I was taught to, you know, put your head down, do the work. Nine to five, get the corner office. Great job.

Education was important, right? Graduated early from undergrad. I got my masters in another year at the same time. So that was all great. And again, I was raised by a single mother.

My dad passed away very, very young. And so hanging out with these entrepreneurs and getting time well spent with them and asking them, how did you do the job? This is incredible. And wanting to do what they do, but having a personality that was completely the opposite. Completely the opposite.

Do you remember? I know you and I are similar in age. You said right before the show, I'm dating myself. There is a show called Seinfeld. Do you remember that show?

Ethan Cole

Of course. Okay. There is a character named George Costanza, right? Total character. Somewhat of a, like, hey, what was me?

Joshua Lee

The sky is falling sort of character. Do you remember the episode where he evaluates his life and he says, you know, if everything I've done to this point in my life has been the wrong decision, the opposite must have been the right one, right? I don't know if you remember that episode. Oh, yeah. I'm trying to think of the order he makes after that moment.

Ethan Cole

He's like, oh, yeah. Like, it's the opposite of egg salad. It's tuna on rye. That's right. So he's, like, sitting there.

Joshua Lee

He's like, I want to get, you know, instead of this, I'm gonna get that. What is the healthiest food or meal he can. Right. The opposite. Right.

And there's a really, you know, attractive lady at the bar who hears over. That's what I ordered. Right, exactly. Gets to know her, walks up to her, do the opposite. Right.

Says, what do you do? Says, I'm jobless and I live with my parents. Right. The opposite. And she's like, that is so refreshing.

I've never, can I have your number, or do you want my number? Right. And then goes, the show keeps proceeding. It culminates with the Yankees, remember? Right.

Meets George Steinbrenner and says, you know, nice to meet you. George. And he's like, well, I wish I could say the same about you taking our beloved Yankees and made it a laughing stuff. But you know, hire this man, right? So he gets a job with Yankees.

So there came a point where I was like, wow, everything that I've done has been good for the corporate life. Twelve and a half figures, Ernst and young. What about being an entrepreneur? How do you take a risk when you don't have perfect data, right? How do you.

And I had an opportunity to work with friends who became entrepreneurs. They were in investment banking, they became VC's. And the funny thing about my friends, none of them, there's like eight or nine of them, none of them made it past their first year in venture capital. And the reason why not because they can, can hack it. It's because they ended up taking seed rounds from their respective VC's.

They're like, oh, you're going to invest in other people's ideas. Invest in our ideas. So they ended up taking seed rounds. And guess who they came to find as their first token board member? Investor, accountant?

This guy. I started seeing these pitch decks, business plans, and I was literally being called throughout the day, hey, are you Joshua Lee? Are you the financial advisor of so and so startup? Like, oh, yes, I am. Right?

And I was like literally texting on my, was it Motorola 720? Like flip flown? Hey, what, what company is this? What are we doing? What are you doing?

But it brought me such joy. Like literally being able to fundraise with my friends and seeing it be theirs. Right? That was, I think that was the first seed that was sown because I was like, wow, we just raised $250,000. We've just raised five hundred k.

And here I am just moving money around at Ernst and Young. It's like in the hundreds of millions. But nothing brought me more joy than. Seeing my friends succeed than 200,000 guys. Yeah, just 250,000.

That's no small jump change either. It brought me such joy. And I was sharing that with my wife. I just recently got married, trying to have family, and I was like, there's something about raising money and there's something about seeing my friends do the startup, taking that leap of faith and not having perfect information and not knowing where their next paycheck is coming from or what office they have and lifestyle they're going to live. They're doing it.

And I was so proud of them. But that was where I think the first seed was sown. Yeah. Seeing that happen. So then how did you make that first leap?

Ethan Cole

Into starting your own company from there? Yeah. Seed was sown. How did you create the first one? The first one was, you know, twelve and a half years later.

Joshua Lee

I decided, you know, it's all about the money and all about the job title. It's time to, it's time to leave. And for me, luckily, fortunately I was able to save. So I had a, you know, a little bit of cushion. And I think the all star answer here is my wife, super all star.

She was like, you know what, Josh? Go for it. Life is too short. Carpe diem. It's not about the money, right?

It's about maximizing what you love to do. So she instilled that and she gave me the courage and the support to actually do it, number one. And when I left, I had no clue. I did not know. I remember some of the partners sat down with me and said, you're leaving to a competitor, aren't you?

You're taking the book of business with you, aren't you? No, I'm honestly wanting to make that jump and be a founder, maybe even an investor. I found like, venture capital might be the road, and I ended up from there starting a venture studio, actually. So at that time we called it venture building. I tried to make that phrase cool, not venture capital, cause I couldn't write those zeros after certain checks.

But I would build with you. So I would say, hey, what's your idea? Do you need a back office? Do you need marketing? Do you need product?

Do you know legal? I know a lot about everything, right? Having helped all these companies the last twelve and a half years, the phrase never really took off. I think it's now called a venture studio. People are like, oh, so you put in checks of 5100 follow on.

And yeah, we started building companies and helping them grow, start, execute, and then eventually exit. So that's where the first inklings of like, oh, this is how startups work. So putting it into three different pillars, starting, executing, and then exiting. And so we figured out, oh, we're going to get really, really good at starting them or helping them execute, right? And we didn't have an exit yet, but once we tasted what that looked like, we were like, wow, that's incredible.

Right? That's the fun part. Everyone celebrates, everyone wins, usually on an exit. And so from there, we figured out there's only four outcomes to any given startup. Like, I'm oversimplifying for your audience here, but it's one.

You're gonna go IPO, right? Take it to the moon. You grow it. Number two, you get acquired, right? There's some sort of exit there.

Three, and I'm being a little bit facetious here, but if you wait long enough, you're gonna go bankrupt, right? You go bankrupt, belly up. And then four, it doesn't get enough credit, but pun intended, it's a lifestyle business, right? It's like, hey, nobody is mad at you. Mad respect, right?

Cash flow, it's doing well. You may not even have to raise money, but that gets kind of set aside because it's always, oh, I gotta get into the front pages of Techcrunch. Gotta be Forbes, 30 under 30, 40 under 40. How much, how much do you raise? And kind of how much do you raise yourself on the amount that you raise, rather.

Ethan Cole

That's right, actually, how much you bring. That's right. And then you take dilution. But people don't understand that dilution, because, you know, we'll talk about cap tables later. But, yeah, people don't.

Joshua Lee

So there's only four outcomes. And we got really very succinct in our thesis. We're like, oh, well, if you're doing a lifestyle business, actually, we would encourage you not to raise money. So, you know, we should respect that. Hopefully no one goes belly up.

No one comes in here going, yeah, I hope I get, you know, go bankrupt. Yeah, no one does that. So now we're left with the first two, right? IPO and being acquired, right. I've seen the process as Ernest and young, right, helping companies go IPO.

And that took anywhere from, I don't know, on average, 815 years. I had one friend who had one of those startups get to the point of preparing for an IPO, eventually got acquired, but we were set up to help them go IPO. I saw the costs, I saw the stress, I saw how long it took, and I was like, wow, this is a long process. Then I started thinking about, well, that just leaves getting acquired. And so getting acquired to me was the pathway that was one on one, least resistance.

And two gave us a lot of control because, you know, although we were venture studio, venture building, what we also started doing, funny enough, was we would work with these founders, co founders, and we would really go deep right into one vertical in that startup. And then we would be like, wow, we discovered new things in that particular vertical. What if we spun something off and created a kind of an ancillary or offshoot idea? We would include, obviously the founder as part of that. But guess what happened?

We realized quickly, hey, wait, when we spin something off we own 100%. Right? I mean, we're going to give a percentage back to the founders, but now we had all the percent to build a team. We would look for a CEO, maybe look for a COO, look for the first ten employees. And what we realized was on the timeline of things.

Right. Just to give some contrast to you in the audience, first exit. I was able to participate like my friend's company. It was a unicorn. I'm not complaining.

I was very blessed to even exit and not lose your money or your time. But I ended up with less than a quarter percent on the exit, so still. And you must have started early on. Oh, I got diluted. Diluted.

Ethan Cole

They were like unicorn checks, the first one. No, no, this is like series. They got to series. Erf, I believe. Okay.

Joshua Lee

Right? And then. And then got acquired. But again, I was blessed to participate in it. Got a taste of what being acquired or having it exist.

And again, I wasn't the lead on it. It was as a good friend. And so that's where I was like, wow. But if we spin things off, right, what if we end up exiting, right, earlier, right? What if we own 95% of the company?

What if we own 90% of the company? And some of these things we were able to start achieving. We started exiting in three years. We started exiting in five months. Little things like, wow, they wanted to buy the brand.

Great. So I was like, wow. Maybe the math does work out if you can plan ahead. And so that's where we started learning about getting acquired and building. And because I look at a lot of pitch decks now, on the investor side as well, I'm a scout for a couple funds in LA, have a family office that we invest out of.

And inevitably you get. Right now, it's really cool, right? You get like an eight to twelve page deck, right? We used to write business plans when we were growing up, but now it's a deck, and inevitably there's one slide, Ethan, one slide in there that says, this is our, you know, this is our exit. And it's like a hockey stick, right?

Or they list out, in some cases, companies. These are the ones that are going to acquire us. And it's big time, right? It's like these big names you've heard of. And my question to them has always been, have you talked to these companies?

Do you maybe have a hard conversation? And the reaction is always no, like, too early. This is our secret sauce. Like, we can't share this. And I'm thinking, you know, not to burst your bubble, but if they wanted to, they probably could crush you.

They probably could do it. And they could probably do it, you know, but what I believe in are the founders, the execution that we can still do it better, faster, cheaper, quicker, better, more nimble as a startup. And so that's what I'm banking on. We started getting really good at having these conversations, and I think being in LA, being in SoCal, twelve and a half years of serving Fortune 100, 500 companies at UI, I grew a really big Rolodex. Kind of forced myself to be outgoing, right?

Again, I'm George Costanza. Right? Like, I forced myself to be outgoing, networking, and had a really strong Rolodex, and said, why don't we have a conversation? Like, what are you guys doing in this space? Right?

And oftentimes, it's funny. Like, I've had gotten reactions from companies that have said, gosh, we're gonna crush you. Like, we are doing this. I said, great. Like, you know, self deprivating humor would great, but, you know, it's funny.

I can't find it. I can't find, you know, so my last company is a great example, you know, to convince my wife I had already done eight startups exited. We were done, and we're now just investing in companies. And we came upon this. This idea for Ards, which is, hey, free money.

How do you know what you don't know? Let's build something. So, summer 2019, two friends of mine knew them from church. They came back, they had just exited their company. They're just sitting there like, hey, Josh, what's the next thing you're doing?

I'm just investing in startups. But they overheard my conversation with some of the accounting firms. Like, hey, I have 23 investments. You're welcome. Wrapped in a bow.

Like, please service them. And you know what they said to me, Ethan? They said, josh, we love you, and you'll always be welcome here, but your companies are too small. We can't service any of them. We don't even know how you're going to get paid if we service your companies, right?

And even the one. The one company they were interested in, we had about 1012 employees, full time employees. We were pre revenue. It was one of those we needed. And so that R and D credit was probably something like 100 grand, 125 grand.

I got a RFP or a proposal for, like, 75 to 100 grand. It cost the exact amount it took to get the credit for the credit, or they would at least benefit more than we would as a startup. So I literally presented that RFP and got laughed out of the board. Like, out of the boardroom. Like, Josh, this is crazy.

We just raised a seed round. We're not spending this much on tax, right? So that's why summer of 2019, it was, oh, let's just build it. To my two co founders, they were like, we should build this. And I was like, no, no, it's.

But we did summer 2019, and it worked. It was like, maybe half heartedly it worked, right? So I would finish the rest, but it worked. And so what was funny was some former colleagues had moved to a different accounting firm, and they said, josh, we want to license this. My first reaction was, license what?

This is like a love project at best, right? But they wanted to license it. So sure, they end up licensing it. Three, four months go by, we saw how much money they made, right? And so my two other co founders came over and had an intervention with me.

Two developers. Josh, we didn't build this to make other people more money. I go to make. To make ourselves more money. No, we want to help startups.

We just want to help startups. And this is not it. So I go, what do you want me to do? You want me to go door to door to door? And they're like, yeah.

And I was like, no, I don't have time. I don't have time for this, but I'll do you one better. I co invest with a lot of funds in La Mucker down the street here, right? Operate studios. We have a lot of, you know, friendly is here.

So I said, why don't we go talk to them? So, you know, and I told the managing partners, Eric and Allah will see. I said, hey, if we do pitch this, like, can you just let these kids down? I say kids, but they're maybe like, in their mid to late twenties. Can you let them down easy?

It's like, oh, sure, Josh, we got you, right? So we started pitching this idea of ardius, and they stopped us halfway, like ten minutes in. Guys, we've heard enough. I said, thank you. Let's put us out on our misery.

We love it. We love the idea. In fact, we have four portfolios, like, four funds that I've never heard of these things. You guys sound like used car salesmen. This is fantastic.

The time is now, though. And I'm like, okay, well, the only problem they found was this is a tax idea. It needs a tax person. And so the room immediately got. Eric got sucked out of the room.

They're all looking at me. I'm like, no, guys, I'm done. I got, you know, so the drive of shame was me calling my wife full circle, right? To your question, like, how am I going to talk to my wife? How'd the meeting go?

I was like, oh, but you know, and she asked me. And I sometimes think she doesn't listen, but she is literally, like, smarter than I am. She's like, josh, to what end are you going to build this? I'm like, wow, you are listening. And I don't know.

So I immediately called up some of the partners that we were working with that summer, right? So a lot of the tax credits offset payroll taxes. So I called up intuit, who had quickbooks payroll. I called up gusto. I called up Trinet.

I even called up stripe atlas. We were working with them a little bit. So these are four or five suitors, right, that we had been working with. And so I literally set up meetings and said, hey, not the smartest guy in the room here. Know that, but what are you doing?

And it makes total sense. We've been working all summer together. And they're like, yeah, it does. And we are. Don't even think about it, right?

And it's like, I was like, great, but what about, like, marketing? Because I couldn't even find it. I had to go, you know, get rejected by some accounting firms before I found it. And they were like, oh, but, and these are the last words they said. They said, tax is tough.

We're trying to build it, but tax is tough. And I go, don't I know it? I mean, twelve and a half years, you know? And so you say, you know, founder, market, fit all the time, right? And so if there was ever one, you know, I was like, wow.

I said, what happens if you can't build it? And their response to me was, well, if you can't rent, you got to buy, right? Very la thing to say, right? So I was like, okay, well, you know what? We'll see in a couple years.

I don't know when or if or how much, but, you know, you know, so that's what we did. And so it gave me enough confidence to start this company with this small team. But we knew our Northstar were like, hey, we build it, there's going to be suitors that will take this. So that's why I do feel that this way of thinking, I know people will say, oh, but it's too early. Too early.

But I had really good candid and honest conversations with our possible suitors, and it can happen. So to recap the way you've after having built so many companies, it really evolved your way of thinking about when you're starting it. This one does seem a bit serendipitous that you kind of just were doing kind of a passion project. But at the same time, even during the passion project, once you realized it was real, you're immediately thinking about, okay, exit. What does exit look like?

Ethan Cole

How are the ways to do it at this point, you probably weren't looking for an IPO because it's such a long road, and this is like, all right, I want to. I've already learned how to exit and sell and be acquired many times over. Let me reach out to my suitors, even though it's super early, even though they may be building it, and then even they even told you, hey, yes, we are building it. But you identified there really are challenges. And the fact that you are a startup, you are nimbler than they are.

You can do things they're not allowed to do, and you don't have a lot of the tape that they do. Or even, like, if they're fighting over marketing budget, you know, this new venture arm that's unproven may lose out to, you know, the bread and butter that's been keeping the lights on for, you know, 50 years. So your advice to founders is like, don't be afraid to share the idea of a secret sauce with a potential suitor early on. And that would, I guess, to do sounds like it does one of two things opens up a relationship. So down the line, you can keep going back and say, hey, here's.

Here's where we are, guys, here's what we're doing. And the second part of it could be just validating that it's a real idea. And then if they take it seriously, then, you know, immediately, okay, I'm on to something. Yeah, I think. I'm not gonna say, like, give them your roadmap and, you know, but I think there are relationships, I think there are partnerships, I think there's collaborations.

Joshua Lee

Right. A little bit of, like, dating along the way that is totally possible. And what I did notice was that this area is blue ocean. That's what I also felt like. I hope you do it because I think it will benefit the ecosystem for startups and small businesses and all that combined, you know, and what was even crazier, and this is totally part of the Ardius journey, was we even helped our competitors as we were going, you know, I'll give them a shout out to you here, but, you know, they were thinking about their next thing.

And certain people were friends. And I was like, oh, have you guys thought about taxes, about bookkeeping, the back office? And they literally, I. It was just in a conversation. But they're like, okay.

So they ended up building something of a competitor to us. And it's. It's crazy because they are good friends, you know, but people will always be like, oh, you can let them do that to you, Josh. You know, I was like, no, like, they're friends. And so to the point where.

But their. But their strategy was not my strategy. Right? Their execution was not my execution. Right?

No one had twelve and a half years worth of tax background, you know, former CPA, no one had that, number one. But number two, remember the four exits? Theirs was not my exit either. And so really quickly, after about twelve months, you know, into ards, one of our friends, competitors, frenemies, I guess you call them, right? Ended up raising ten mil out of post 100, right?

And I remember my phone blowing up. Oh, Josh, it's like you got dunked on. Like, they went 1st. 1st mover. What are you talking about?

Right? I was like, what do you mean? They're like, well, you're the venture guy, you're the investor. Like, how could you let them go first? I go, that is not like my goal.

Like, that's theirs. And the first person to actually congratulate them, me. I actually called them and said, hey, congrats. I heard about the raise. If anything, it started credentializing us.

Right, right. And my last question to the first friend was, but where do you go from here? Like post 100? Like, you know, you're looking at ten x for some institutions, you know, as they come in here, their expectations are ten x. The next bus stop is like a billion dollars.

But hey, you be you, right? Only to be outdone by another friend just three, four months later, right? They go and raise 60 million at a post $500 million valuation, right? And so again, phone blows up. What's going on?

But we use that opportunity, right? When they started raising at post 500, you know, I knew from that day, like, hey, guys, keyboards down. I think. I think this is a good segue or our time to revisit our suitors. So we were only 15 months in to our company, but that was what we needed to kind of start that conversation, which was, did you see what happened?

Did you see so and so raise at 500? Like, yeah, it's crazy, right? And it was a nice icebreaker, if anything. And then it. And then the inevitable question was, like, do you think you're worth 500?

Right? I'm like, oh, no, of course not. You know, so. And then, you know, what's your number, right? And I go, well, that's the wrong question, right?

Kind of a little snarky, of course, just begging them to ask me like, what the right question is. But no, I told them, look, we're at that time we were doing about 1020k acv, right? And trying to figure out, oh, what if you could convert 1000 of our customers to, you know, to Ardius, right, at even 10,000, right? ACV, 10 million in revenue, right? So what are we getting on multiples today?

Like, you know, in SaaS and, you know, like, oh, maybe eight to twelve x. I said, well, then you're getting basically about like 100 million in value, right? So now all of a sudden it doesn't sound too crazy, but all I was concerned about is, you know, are you or are you not willing to share? And when I say that, meaning share, you know, the exit with, you know, the first ten employees, 1012 employees. And that's where we get into cap tables, right?

The transition to cap tables. Because when you are forming an exit in your mind, right? I want to be very, very clear. When we were doing venture studio, venture building, we would sit down with a potential CEO, founder, or even the first ten team members. I always do this on all nine exits, right?

Sat down with them and go, what is the number that is going to change your life? What is the fiscal outcome? I did this at, you know, my alma or UCLA here. Go Bruins. I speak to a lot of universities founders who, you know, they come in weekly into our office and I asked them, why did you do a startup?

I was about to ask you that, ethan, when I first walked in, why are you doing this? This podcast is amazing. What is your end goal? And everyone will tell me, more likely than not, oh, it's because I want to do something creative. I want to work with great teams.

I want to disrupt this industry, right? I was like, nobody ever says to me, I hope I work with bad teams. I hope I don't do anything creative, and I hope I work with really bad. Like, no one says that the one thing we don't talk about, right, as founders is money. I know, it's funny.

No one ever says, you know what, Josh? Cause I want to get rich. I want to get super rich, filthy rich. You know, I mean, they're just saying, mentor. My mentor Phil, you know, he always says, cash will make you rich, but equity can make you wealthy.

I always remember that. And so shout out to Phil, right, if he's listening. So I've always said that, hey, you know what? As a founder, when you're starting something, you're creating something. I know you're busy, you know, making stuff and creating stuff, and you just want to go, go, go.

The one thing that gets overlooked in the startup phase is the cap table, right? I've always said, you need a great lawyer and you need a great accountant. Those two things are, like, inevitable. But they look at me and I go, oh, you've never looked at your cap table? Like, you don't.

And people will tell me, I'll know. It's a dead giveaway when I ask them, what percentage of the company do you still own, depending on your fundraising? And they go, I think I am. So it's like, I think. Or they give me a range, I think I'm still 60% to 70%.

That's 10% delta. Like, which, which one is it? And so I know very quickly, like, they do not know. Like, they don't understand dilution, they don't understand the fundraise, how much they've given out, right? Fully diluted.

What does that mean? And very quickly, I'm like, oh, we need to have a talk, right? Because, number one, I've never, and I challenge anyone to come visit me in my office. Show me a clean cap table. Show me one.

I've had founders who've come in startups that we've wanted to invest in, and I've never seen a clean cap table yet, unless you're just starting out and we help you formulate that cap. But if there's history, never seen one. Never have seen one. And so as we start opening up the cap table, start seeing the convertible notes, the safe notes, the priced rounds, even venture debt, and the warrants that have been issued, it's all over the place. I had one founder come in recently, a couple months ago, thought they owned 70, 80% of the company.

Ended up volunteering as captivil so we could all go through it to learn together, which is what we do. And we ended up noticing a down round and then noticing that his shares were somewhere actually in the upper twenties. And you could just see the face, and the reaction was like, wow, I feel like now I'm just a glorified employee. Didn't realize I had taken so much on that down round as a, you know. And so I tell founders all the time, I think, you know, these applications that we've built like, I'm a big fan, right?

Like Carta cake equity shout out, right? Man, these should be sponsors on our next show here. But they're great. Cap shares, shareworks. They're great.

But we get so comfortable knowing that our, you know, our percentages are in the cloud. And I would say, as a founder, like, print it out. Let's go old school, right? This is your roadmap. This is the only thing I'm being, again, sarcastic.

A little bit sarcastic here, but it's the only thing that matters on the exit. After all is said and done, what amount in equity in the new company or cash from the payout are you going to get from working all these crazy hours and pouring your sweat and creativity with the team? What are you gonna get, right? And it's all laid out like a treasure map, right? It's like, on this cap table, it literally is here, but no one pays any attention to it.

Like, literally, it's like, oh, I thought I owned 70, 80 even that I was kind of laughing. I was like, that's a big difference. 10%, you know? Right. And so.

And then from there, you just start getting really, really good in the details. Like, I tell people all the time, oh, there's one group came in, for example. This might be another session altogether, but how did a group come in literally, and tell me, oh, we actually have a term sheet for an exit. How was, like, ecstatic. Congratulations, you know, oh, we're not taking it.

I'm like, oh, why not? It's like, well, it's not the price we want. It's too low. So. Oh, I respect that.

Okay, you know, what's the price? And so they tell me. And then I go, what are you holding out for? Oh, we need to be here. I said, this in here, that's not that far.

And I started doing the math. And by the way, how long have you been in this company? Four years, seven months. I said, okay. It's right around that time.

So people get antsy. I go, wait four years, seven months. And what they didn't realize is like, do you know that the first 10 million can be tax free again? It all goes back to taxes. The first 10 million could be tax free, right?

Let me see your cap table. Like, how much would that mean to all of you? And started doing the math. I was like. I was like, okay, there's this rule, right?

Do this election. It's called QSBs, right? Qualified small business stock. If you wait till five years, right? Not a service business.

You qualify, and make this election and your 1st 10 million is tax free. They, like, almost fell out of their chair. I was like, you need to want either stall for five more months and qualify, or, you know, because I was telling, the funny thing is, if you take the lower price, but wait those five months, you will actually net more in your pocket than if you actually get the higher price today because you're going to get taxed on all of it. Right? And so again, founders, where we at here?

Right? Founders in LA. Like, there are people that know this. There are people like, you know, Ethan, people like myself who want to help. We genuinely want to help.

We have no agenda. Like, I don't want to take a percentage of your company. I don't want to, you know, literally, I just want to help. But again, we ask the question, and I think this is, this is a great platform. How do you know what you don't know?

I'm hoping someone's listening to founders in LA with Ethan Weekly here. And they go, what? What is qsBs? It sounds like B's. No, it's called Qs.

B's qualified small business stock. Just look that up. This will pay for itself. All the sponsors, everyone listening, it will pay for itself. But there are people who still come in deer in the headlights who are like, what are you talking about?

And I guarantee you one thing, though. Ask any person with a Patagonia sweater or vest and they will literally tell you word for word what, qsps. Because they know. They know. And you think that they are supposed to tell you that they're gonna coach you?

No, they're just like, we invested in you, but they may just want you to go raise another round. Right? It's like value valuation. Valuation. Not to exit.

Exit or exit smaller, you know, or tax free. That's not their goal. Right. And so this is where I love coming on, you know, shows like this and. And kind of spitting, you know, spitballing with you.

Ethan Cole

So, no, man, is. This is absolutely helpful. And I actually did not know that rule about the first 10 million is free. That's a good tidbit for folks who are listening out there, for sure. Wow.

And I think in a previous conversation, we also discussed the expectations that come with those rounds. Right? So the. It's almost in. It's almost that in some certain situations, the goals of the VC are separate from that of the founder.

And that, to your point, a founder who can get a life changing amount of money, whatever that is, for them, and it varies for everyone. So it's worth considering. What is that number? But for the founder to leave with that number, it could be very different from what the VC's expectations are. And maybe just quick, let's imagine it's like an advanced intermediate, advanced knowledge of how it works, but, like, let's walk through like, different expectations of the valuation of a company.

And what does that mean as a founder when you take more money versus less money? Yeah. And literally, this is not like an art versus science thing. I mean, literally, I could predict, you know, our first round is like a pre c round. We're calling it nowadays.

Joshua Lee

It's anywhere from like 500 to maybe 2 million. And you're going to take like on a convertible node or some sort of dilution of 10%. Then you do a seed round officially with maybe friends, family and fools, right? They come in and then there's a series a, right? And that usually is like anywhere from two to 20 million, and you're going to take another 20% dilution.

I mean, I can predict with certainty what dilution will be for the founders at what stages. And so it's not going to be like guesswork. Like, oh, how much we're going to end up with, like, as a percentage. And that's why I always have that conversation about what is a number that would be life changing for your family. I remember talking to some founders and they gave me a number, right?

They're like, josh, I just want to be a millionaire. Like, 2 million would be fine, right? Like, you already. You've already hit it. Like, what are you still doing here?

Like, no, I'm not. Because they don't understand valuation, right? They're just like, oh, well, well, it can come in different ways. I think for that founder, we structure a deal where they would get a salary for 500k for four years. Kind of like a vesting.

That's 2 million, right? I was like, you didn't tell me how it had to happen, right? You didn't tell me if it was gross net taxes before, after. I mean, so there is that conversation. I think that needs to happen.

So one of the things that I tell founders all the time is, yes, there's an alignment with your investor, especially, you said VC's in terms of, like, executing growth, wanting the company to do well. That is all table stakes. Like, yes, that is absolutely aligned. But in terms of, like, you know, whether or not returns, you know, ten x to the fund. So a couple things, right?

Maybe just in general, for people who are listening, just to understand, they need to understand how a venture fund works, right? That's number one. So let's say we have $100 million fund together, right? And, you know, as a general partner, I put in, like, ten. You put in ten?

And there's LP's in there, limited partners, who put in the other 80. I'm just using round numbers, right? But there's this rule of thumb where it's like, oh, there's the LP's are going to get 80, and then. And then the GPs are 20%. So I always thought like, oh, this is the best job in the world because, you know, on an exit, I'm going to get 20% as a GP.

But what the people don't realize is that, you know, it's the overall fund, is how the math has to work. So, for example, let's say you and I, we actually started coming together. I put in $10 million into, you know, Ethan Corporation, right? Awesome company. Love the founder.

And you actually do ten x for me, right? Like, oh, wow, it's fantastic. Great. I always ask founders this, you know, test the water. How much do I get as a GP on that exit?

Right. Usually they'll be like, well, you said 20%, so if it's 100 mil, Josh, you take home 20 mil. I'm like, I wish, right? Like, most VC's will say the same thing. No, actually, the first return of the fund goes to the fund.

So, you know, it's $100 million fund. So literally, we just returned all the money. Right? I don't get 20% of anything, right? I might get, like, 3% management fee here.

That's my salary. But I don't get 20 mil. We just barely repaid the fund. Now, if there's another exit, right? And I'll just use Julia's name, because that's the reason why I'm on the show.

Let's say Julio has a company and he only exits. Poor Julia only exits for a dollar. Right? But here's the thing of that dollar, I actually get 20%. I actually now get twenty cents.

I had a check written, you know, because. Already been covered. It's already been covered, paid back. And then the 80. Yeah, exactly.

Right? So there's this expectation for them. Just understand their alignment is like, oh, we gotta repay the fund now. That was a best case scenario. What if the fund's been deployed, right?

And all other companies that have gone before you, some have succeeded, some have failed, but we're only at. We're only at 20 million. You've returned 20 million of the fund, and you're the last company Ethan in my fund number one. Right? To save the day.

And I put in ten mil on you, right? So all of a sudden, you come, like, screaming, Josh just got an offer, right? An offer at what? At 50 million, right? Oh, that's ecstatic.

That's going to change the life of your. You and your family. I'm so happy for you. But I'm sorry, I'm going to veto it now. I'm not making all VC's out to be bad guys.

Please don't misinterpret this, but I'm just trying to give extreme examples. Right? So we've just returned 20, right? Now you have the last exit, I guess, is 50, right? So come back in.

I've only hit, what, 70, right? I actually didn't return any money. And that's all she wrote. Moving on to next fun fund number two. I'm sorry.

And then nobody gets. I don't get a carry. In fact, you know what? If I really believed in you, I might even veto your exit. I might say, you know what?

That's not good enough. You're like, what are you talking about? Five x from where we first started together. No, sorry. Like, I think we're gonna have to.

I would need you to do it. I might sarcastically say, oh, I need you to return whatever that number is just to get back to 100, right? I need. I need, like, 80. So, you know, I need at least an eight x, right.

Then you can, you know, and if you could do nine, that'd be great. So when you take money, there comes expectations of different sorts. One is the return, depending on how their funds doing. And you don't know to ask whether you're the beginning of the fund investment or at the end of the fund investment, right? Because the attitudes can change.

I had one vc we worked with back in the day was like, josh, take your time. I believe it's all good, right? That's because I was like, they're one of the first investments, and the fund was like a ten year fund or I think five year fund. So take your time. The second time around, same VC, we were at the tail end, and they did have a bad, you know, result for their majority of their fund, and so they were.

Josh, do you have an update? Do you have an update? Do you have an update? Whoa. Same, same VC.

Why? The change in attitude is because their fun, our fun position, was different. And when the time of that, literally. Just the timing in which you were signing the deal and by the time they approached you or the terms came to be. There were some failures early on that they all suddenly knew, oh, there's building pressure.

Ethan Cole

So instead of getting the time that you wanted to grow slowly into that, into the growth you were looking for, you need to fast track in order to make up for the deficit of the. Or that exit that I had gotten the term sheet for, to exit wasn't good enough. Wasn't high enough. Right? And so, so there is this mentality.

Joshua Lee

You've heard, you know, VC say, oh, ten x, ten x, ten x. And I used to be offended even when people said, hey, you're not. You're not venture backable. I remember hearing that sometimes I'm like, I'm very venture back. Well, I didn't understand the word venture in front of it because just seemed like, oh, you weren't willing to back me.

I'm your friend. Don't you believe in me? But really, what they were saying was like, no, the mathematics need to work. Like, if I invest, I'm going to expect maybe nine out of ten to fail, and yours has to at least do a ten x. And if you could do 100, that's what we're in the game for.

And so does this investment that we're doing with you, Josh, does this idea even have a market that is big enough to give me 100 x or ten x? So that's when I knew when, again, different perspectives. But when our frenemies were raising ten at 100, you know, 60 at 500, the expectations couldn't have been, you know, even bigger, because, again, where do you go from, you know, 100 mil, or in this case, 500 million? Right? You're talking about, you know, a billion, right, from the 100,000,010 x.

And for me, that wasn't our goal as a team. Right. So that's why I was, like, I was super happy for them, called them, congratulated them, but, you know, I told everyone else I was blowing up my phone on LinkedIn and everything, like, hey, I have not. This is not, you know, what I am trying to do. And my team knew that, too, right?

We're like, hey, but one thing I will say is going back to cap tables and valuations, is I do have these conversations with the first ten employees. Sometimes when we hire the C suite for our venture studio type companies, we have real conversations about numbers. And I want to get, like, a floor, not a ceiling, because everyone's going to be like, a billion would be great, Josh, but real number, like. And I want you to think about it and not just make one up some people coming, all 10 million just sounds like, you know, baller and eight figures. So if I gave you nine, you wouldn't take it, like, no, no, of course I would.

Well, that's not your floor. Then what is? Literally. But I want to have that conversation, because, again, I know, based on, you know, where we're at in our life cycle, of the startup, I know how much equity I can give you, I know how much salary I can give you, and I know the timing, right, of what I think we could exit for. And I'll do the math for you, right.

Literally negotiate against myself and go. If we do this right, does this get to the number that this person who's giving up to me their best three to five years of their life, professional years, I owe it to them to talk through it. Is there any guarantee? No, but I at least want to know what that number is so that we have eyes wide open expectations. And sometimes it goes the other way.

It's like, what's your number? You're not a co founder. I don't think we'll hit that number. And we part ways still, as friends. Handshake, fist bump, we're good.

But on the occasion it's, hey, this is your number. Very doable. I might have to increase the percentage, again, negotiating against myself here, to get you to that number, but that's what I think we're going to do, right? I go, hey, welcome to the team. I think we can do that together.

And so when I add all these numbers up, maybe the first eight to twelve employees, and I get an offer, for example, that we, you know, is within range, then I know that, hey, this is serious, because I might get a number and it hits no one's numbers. Right. I'll still, you know, out of fiduciary responsibility, still bring it up. But most of the time, it's like, no, Josh, you want to keep going, and, okay, let's go. Right?

But on occasion, we do get an offer, and it's great, and it meets everyone's expectations, and numbers that I provided. Hasn't changed. Right? It can. I'll take it.

So this is why, you know, our last company was sold in 18 months and two. Very interesting enough. It was done in a way where I thought everyone's numbers were achieved, and I got laughed at, ethan. Like, literally, people outside who don't know the terms or details, they're like, you left so much money on the table. That's crazy.

This is 2021, June of 2021, and they're right. I mean, money was free, valuations were through the roof, right? And people were just laughing at us. Now, fast forward to 2023. Now 24.

Same people that were laughing at me were like, Josh, you're a genius. How did you know to sell in 2021, right? Like, just sheer greed. I was like, oh, it wasn't about getting more and more and more, finding the right, you know, company market fit to take us with them, with the resources and the fit. But I knew that everyone's number, at least from the beginning, conversations we had were met, and that's all I was willing to, like, wanting to do, right?

Not because I'm like, oh, I probably left this on the table and to get more. But that's where I think, talking it out, having candid conversations, it doesn't happen enough. It does not happen enough. Same thing with the VC's, investors, co founders, and even employees, right? They're taking a ride with.

With you. And so I think if you have that chances of success or at least trust, right, and transparency, like accountability, that that is at least a foregone. Like, hey, at least we have that to start our new company together, so. Well, thank you so much, Josh. I think part of, to recap part of what you were saying, it's very helpful as a founder to have that goal in mind, to know exactly to what end are you looking at so that you don't get blinded by the lights, you don't get blinded by evaluations or things happening around you, that you have a north star.

Ethan Cole

Like, hey, I'll be happy if I do this. And that seems to be one of the recipes that you've seen successful over and over again. So thank you so much for sharing amazing tidbits. We do like to ground it in LA. It's been one of my favorite episodes.

I'd love to hear your most la moment. It could be tech related. It doesn't have to be. I think for me, because we're in LA, we're in the hub of LA. Like, we, like, people know I love doing selfies everywhere I go just to document the journey.

Joshua Lee

And then every time I see a celebrity, I do get, like, dull, like fanboy, you know, but it's. It's. It's not necessarily, you know, in the way that people think it might not be. Like, my wife, for example, one time ran into Denzel as her and her girlfriends, you know, at the time, and had a great conversation, like, just, there's nobody else. And they just, you know, chatted away for me, like, I'm, you know, very good friends with Julio of Crossworld.

And it's so funny. Like, I wore this shirt for him. It says, you know, creator. And like, today everyone was like, what are you, what are you eating? What are you talking about?

And they're like, oh, eat. Like, no, no, it's this creator. But there is this group, they call themselves the Fung brothers. It's like David and Andrew Fung. And they started doing parodies of, like, songs that are like, you know, cover cover bands with, like, boba songs.

Like, I love boba. That's my favorite drink dessert. And they would take these, like, crazy songs and do parodies of boba. It's all about boba. And I saw them back when I was in college slash just graduating and then working at Ernst and Young, and I literally met them.

They were emceeing an award ceremony, a show called the Asian Hustle Network. Shout out to them, too, man, we are really running commercials today. We should really charge this. But I ran into them, and I've always wanted to do something with them. It's like, hey, I have a lot of brands, consumer product goods.

And so this is where the tech and entrepreneurship come together off. I could only meet them and then maybe work on something together and building a brand or maybe even a brand for them in some of the entrepreneurship and companies. But I met them and I just fanboyed out, like, oh, my gosh, I've been following you for, you know, whatever. And, like, who is this guy? Why is he, like, you know, approaching us?

But, but to meet them was, again, like, celebrities and you, we could walk out on the street right now. We might meet someone and. But that's, that's la moments for you. For me. Oh, that's fantastic.

Ethan Cole

Yeah. Actually meeting the person that you, you've seen on the screen or seen on stage in person. And then I love the panicking and not actually asking the question you were hoping to ask them. No, not at all. We talked right before we recorded.

Joshua Lee

I mean, right across my dorm room at UCLA is when I first met Javascal. Right. Uber, and at that time, scour and now cloud kitchens. But, I mean, this is like LA. This is what is so awesome about it.

We could, like, literally across the dorm room, have a conversation with someone who eventually becomes, you know, celebrity or someone who's made it big. I. True story. I mean, I'm sure you've watched Silicon Valley, of course. Okay, so do you remember there's a vc in the show.

His name is Ed she, I believe. And he's the, the asian VC. Right? He takes over from the bro. Yeah, the bro.

Yeah, with the Ehrlich. Went to high school with him. So Tim show is friend from high school. Saw him at a high school reunion. Hey, you're playing the role.

You're the VC in Silicon Valley. Love that show. So sarcastically funny, but there's subtle truth. And in all the, you know, all the episodes and so seeing Tim as well, like, hey, this is great. Like, you need more anecdotes or stories, like, let me know.

I have so many of them, but LA moments, right? Like friend from high school is now in a tv show. So it's great. I mean, we have a fantastic community here. And Josh, thank you so much for sharing.

Ethan Cole

Just so many great takeaways from today. Looking forward to hearing folks talk about it. Where can folks find you? Yeah, they can find me on LinkedIn, it's Joshua, middle initial Y, Lee. And just type in Ardius.

Joshua Lee

Ardius. And for anyone who also, because friend of the show, if they want to use ARds and they're curious if they've maximized every credit, especially startups or small businesses, we should probably create a code. Just maybe a mention of Ethan or founders in LA and we'll do something for free. Payroll, maybe for tax credits, something like that we could do. And also on Twitter, it's a funny name, or x now we should call it, right?

Twitter x. It's USC Bruin. USC Bruin. So I went to grad school, USC, but at the time, still bleeding Bruin blue and still am. Shout out to UCLA again and UCLA adventures.

Ethan Cole

And you got that handle. That must have been early. USC Bruin, USC Bruin. I don't think anybody wanted it. No one's like, why are you.

Joshua Lee

It was a great icebreaker. So USC Bruin or Joshua Wiley at LinkedIn. Well, can't thank you enough, Josh. It was a great conversation. Really joy to having you here, and it's so generous of your offer to our listeners.

Ethan Cole

So thank you so much for that. Like to thank our sponsors nearshure and Unida, as well as Prodhub AI. Build better products with Prodhub AI, where innovation meets efficiency. Automate your prds, fast track your story creation, and speed up your product team with a single platform. It's your co pilot for product management.

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