153. Negotiating Your Worth with Jennifer Justice

Jennifer Justice

And then what kind of deal is it? Is it like with Jay? He was always so entrepreneurial, and he always knew what he wanted. He wanted to own things for the most part. So we were creating deals that had never been done.

He was really one of the first in music in particular to start his own brands, et cetera. He's like, instead of making somebody else rich, I'm gonna do it myself. And we did that in a lot of different ways. And way before Roc Nation when he was like, okay, let's really, like, hyper grow this idea of being so self sustaining company and all the parts, like, feed each other.

Tori Dunlap

Hi, team. Welcome to the show. I'm so excited to see you. Welcome, financial feminists. Thanks for being here.

I was telling Kristen before I went to the gym this morning, I woke up at 745, 645. I went to Jesus. I woke up at 645. And some of you is like, yeah, that's child's play. I'm up at five.

Sorry, that was early for me. And I went to the gym before work. And yes, I feel better than everybody else. No, but truly, I'm like, this is. This is the version of me where I am at my best.

I had my smoothie after I did my shower. Also, quick life hack. This blew that. I don't know why I didn't do this sooner. This, like, blew my mind.

The first time I did it a couple years ago, I was somewhere tropical and there was an outdoor shower at the place I was staying. First of all, outdoor showers, ten out of ten would recommend. Second, I never thought to bring beverages into the shower before. And let me tell you, shower beverages hit different. So I would wake up and I would go out to my outdoor shower with the birds chirping in the sunshine.

And I would have made my smoothie. And I bring my smoothie into the shower. And let me tell you, it changed my life. It changed my life. So this morning, I took my shower after my workout and I had my kale ginger apple lemon smoothie already made.

And I just sat and I was in the hot water and I just sipped it. And then I tried to cold plunge and I did about 3 seconds and then I was like, no, too cold. And then I switched it off. Also, I didn't do an intro. Hi, I'm Tori.

You probably knew that already. Welcome. I'm a money expert. I'm a New York Times bestselling author, and I'm a smoothie in the shower drinker. And I highly recommend, if you are new to the show, you're new to her first hundred k, you are trying to figure out where the hell to start with your money journey.

What you're going to do is go to her first hundred k.com slash quiz. Her first hundred k.com quiz. You can also go down to the description that's right under this episode and it's a sticks question quiz. There's no pass fail. We're just trying to get some information about you and then we will deliver you a free personal money plan to guide you on your journey.

This is the thing we built for everyone who's way too overwhelmed, who's trying to figure out where to start with money. So literally, while you're listening to this episode, assuming you're not like driving a car, go ahead and type that in. Her first hundred K.com slash quiz. Complete the quiz and we will send the results and all of the goodies directly to your inbox. So we appreciate it.

All right, today's episode is a fun one with a friend of mine who's also a collaborator, Jennifer Justice Jennifer justice is an entrepreneur and former entertainment executive known for her expertise in building careers and business portfolios of artists and women by marrying art with commerce. From the beginning of her career, JJ, as she is known, has championed gender equality and diversity in the workplace and beyond. In 2019, JJ founded the Justice Department, a business strategy and business development consultancy, and a law firm that works with female entrepreneurs, executives, talent, brands, and creatives to build and maximize their revenue and wealth. Prior to the Justice Department, JJ was Evp of strategic marketing and business development and general counsel at Roc Nation. Yes, that Roc Nation, where she helped structure the vision and growth of Roc nation.

Get this. You ready? Hold on to your socks, everybody. She served as Jay Z's personal entertainment attorney for a total of 17 years. And Beyonce's attorney.

Yes, Beyonce knows Carter's attorney during her time at Roc Nation. Crazy wild. First time I heard that, that she. I was just floored. I was like, tell me everything, even though I know you can't.

JJ also hosts the acclaimed podcast taking care of lady Business, which I have been a guest on. She's also been named a game changer by Goop, by InStyle as one of the 50 badass women changing the world, and on Billboard's women in power list three times. She's been featured on the Today Show, Tamron Hall, CNBC, Yahoo, Intermix, the Skim Podcast, Cara golden podcast, and is a regular contributor on NBC News. A couple of things we talk about in this episode. We talk about how Jennifer got into the music business and the lessons she learned while working at Roc Nation.

And if you're a small business owner, we also talked about all the important questions of when is it time to bring in a lawyer? It's super important to figure out when the most opportune time is, as well as how to make advantageous deals when you're building your business or your brand. And we also spend some time talking about negotiating, both as a business owner and as a woman navigating the corporate world. So whether you're a business owner, someone who's working a nine to five, anything in between, this is going to be a great episode for you. Let's go ahead and get into it.

But first, a word from our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Hills Pet nutrition. Every shelter pet deserves a second chance, and you are making it possible for thousands of them every day. Because when you feed your pet hills, you help feed a shelter pet, which helps make them healthy, happy, and more adoptable, changing their life forever so they can change yours. Over 14 million shelter pets fed and adopted.

Jennifer Justice

Science did that. Visit hillspet.com podcast to learn more.

Tori Dunlap

You've been seeing far too much of me recently, and I'm so sorry for that. That is our third time talking. I'm like, oh, you've seen way too much. How are you doing? How's life?

How are things going? You're based in New York? I'm based in New York. Is it Brooklyn or part of New York? No, I'm in lower Manhattan.

Okay, cool. Tribeca. Yeah, yeah, it's hectic. I feel like things are, like, back to 2019 and everybody's, like, calling it seven at night again. You know what I mean?

That's not ideal. No. I was just talking to a friend this morning that apparently there's this fungal thing that's uncurable going around Washington state hospitals, and she's like, is this the beginning of the pandemic again? She's like, it's the same Super bowl. It's the same presidential candidate.

Jennifer Justice

She's like, is this. Are we round two ing this? And I was like, chills. I can't. I know.

Tori Dunlap

I'm like, I can't think about that. No. I can't think about doing this all over again. No. Although we're much more prepared.

I did tell her. I was like, if we made it through a pandemic, maybe we can make it through a second question mark. But I think we're going to be fine. Watch in three months. We're not fine.

Jennifer Justice

But I have a lot of ppe. Yep. You know, that's for sure. Totally. We're really excited to have you.

Tori Dunlap

I love to start interviews with our finance and business guests by asking them their first money memory. When is the first time that you remember thinking about money? The first time I remember thinking about money, I was in high school. I always had jobs, like, pretty much over part time, you know what I mean? And I got a credit card because I was going to college.

Jennifer Justice

I was the first of anybody in my family to go to college. My mom didn't even graduate high school, you know, from Washington state, so, you know, and I was going to University of Washington, and I didn't have, like, a comforter and everything, and so I had to get a credit card, and I didn't have money. I had to get a credit card to purchase, like, betting and stuff for the dorm room. And I had a credit line of $200, and I purchased, you know, probably $150 or something worth of stuff and freaking out going, how am I gonna pay this back? It was never a good relationship with money, I'll tell you that.

It was always had the poverty mentality we grew up in, food stamps and government cheese and stuff like that. So it's always about scarcity. Not a bunch, unfortunately. Yeah. So it wasn't this exciting.

Tori Dunlap

Like, cool, I'm going to go use this credit card to buy the things I want. It's like, holy shit, I can't afford this. Yeah. How am I going to pay this? Yeah, yeah.

We find that money memories often have a direct impact on the relationship with money you have unless you work to change it. And so it sounds like that, yeah, scarcity mindset, very similar of just, like, growing up without a lot. And it sounds like that informed a lot of your experience. Yeah, of course. Yeah.

So what drew you to entertainment? Like, I have to ask you, like, where did we. How did that start? Like, and especially on the business side, like, going from college at UW to, like, getting to, like, what drew you to that? What.

What was exciting about that for you? Well, you know, growing up without any, like, mentors from a business perspective and understanding what I could possibly do with my, you know, my undergraduate degree, you know, I wasn't really sure. And so I was looking to, you know, I graduated. I was going on, like, interviews for wine distribution or insurance sales, and I was just like, this is not why I went to uW. And I didn't want to work at, you know, the burgeoning Microsoft or, you know, like, Microsoft or Starbucks or the big places in Seattle.

Jennifer Justice

And I was like, you know what? I guess I'm going to go to law school. I'd worked at the prosecutor's office in King county, and I was like, okay, I'll go and I'll be a lawyer, because I don't know what else to do. You look on tv, it's like, lawyer, doctor, banker. It's still the same private eye, you know, spy.

And so I opted for a lawyer, and I applied to law school, and it was, you know, the grungiers had been in full swing. All those bands still lived there. You know, Seattle was still a pretty small town. And I would go out to clubs and see these bands, and they all. They were like, oh, you're going to law school.

We have lawyers, and they're women. And I was like, wait, what? I can do this. And so I went to Cornell Law school solely to be a music entertainment attorney. But, you know, it's not an easy thing to get into.

So I started as an associate, a litigation associated at a law firm called Hughes, Hubbard and Reed. And they're really great. They're downtown New York. And they said, look, we know you don't want to be here, you know, but we want our people to be happy, because if you go somewhere else, you know, you'll possibly hire us. And so one of the guys who hired me, actually there, called me and he said, have good news and bad news.

I'm not going to be here anymore, but I'm going to electronic records. And when you're ready to be an entertainment attorney, I'll help you get some interviews. And that's exactly what happened. And I just knew that it was an area after working in litigation and not having, you know, I didn't go to boarding school. I didn't go to private school here.

I don't have dads who are general counsels or friends or general counsels to get clients. And I was ambitious, and I wanted to do well, but I knew that I could relate to musicians, and I knew it was an art form that I loved so much. I really wanted to be a music attorney. And so that's exactly what happened. The guy, like, when I was ready, about a year in, he started introducing me to other attorneys that were looking to hire and hire somebody like me.

Tori Dunlap

We read that you took a pay cut to do that. Was that a payoff that ended up being worth it? It sounded like that that was something you actually wanted to do versus your unhappiness in your current situation. Yeah, I looked at it like, I've probably really not make partner for a really long time because I just have that network. And I took a bet on myself.

Jennifer Justice

I mean, they offered me even less, and I said, and I negotiated higher, thankfully. Sometimes I look back at that person and go, who was she? How did she do that? And I negotiated higher. I knew that they wanted me, so.

And they met it. And then I quickly started getting my own clients, and I knew that if I get my own clients and I could, you know, surpass what I was going to be making, you know, at the same year in level, Hughes, Hepburn, Reed. So I took a bet on myself, you know, lived some lean, lean years. You know, I had a ton of loans from UW and Cornell. Well, mostly from Cornell, not from uw, but, you know, it was pretty hefty price tag.

And so, you know, I just hustled. I hustled and worked my ass off and got a bunch of clients and did really well really quickly. So it paid off. Yeah. I would love for you to explain to the listener who's not in this industry, why might an artist need a lawyer?

Tori Dunlap

Like, what is the purpose of legal counsel to a client, like Rihanna or Beyonce or Jay Z? And, like, what sort of deals are you brokering? Like, give me a peek into that universe. How the sausage gets made. Okay.

Jennifer Justice

So, yeah, it's actually quite different. And I didn't know that because I was, you know, that's. I kind of, like, grew up in the business. But a lawyer is usually one of the first people that an artist hires, because they help them find managers for their business. They help them find business managers.

They help them find booking agents which book their shows and then also find record deals for them. So we negotiate that full record deal, which is usually a 40, 50 page agreement. You know, if they're songwriters, we help them find publishing deals that will pay them for the songs that they write. Because there's songwriters that aren't artists and artists that aren't songwriters, right? And then there's some that are both, which happened to be all the people you just named.

Then they have deals for their merchandise that you buy when you go to a show. They have deals with their managers when they get them. They have deals for shows. They have deals for all the extracurricular stuff that they do. Jay Z happened to turn all his hobbies into businesses.

It's actually way more like an agent, because an agent doesn't touch their recorded music with their record label or their songwriting. They only do, for the most part, their live shows, and sometimes they'll do their sponsorship endorsement kind of stuff. But, like, for instance, Jay Z never had an agent his entire life. So I was doing more agents of more sourcing, vetting, you know, it was a lot more business development, business strategy. And then I also had a law degree, you know what I mean?

And I had to do the paperwork, too. So it's a really integral role in an artist's career. They always have a lawyer. They always have. Well, unless you're Jay Z, have an agent for the most part.

Tori Dunlap

Right. They have a record label or self release or publishing company or, you know, collect that on their own. Those are kind of the major players in their careers. Well, and I think one thing especially looking at, you know, your client roster was people who were not just thinking strategically about, yep, I'm going to be a musician, but also I'm going to be a songwriter, and I'm going to own a liquor brand, and I'm going to have a streaming service, and I'm going to do all these things. So, like, how integral is that relationship between a lawyer and an artist to say, okay, there's these other opportunities for you that are here just beyond music, just beyond you showing up and writing songs, but also, yeah, of course, touring and merchandise.

And then in addition, all of the other pieces, now that we see more commonly of just, like, the musician as a brand. Yeah. So it's. I mean, it's a very close relationship because. And it should be, you know, centered with that one person, because every deal has an exclusivity or, you know, a term, and you have to make sure that everything, all the puzzle pieces fit together, that you're not breaching one contract to get another.

Jennifer Justice

Right. And when they are and how much negotiation, how much leverage you have based on their last album, you know what I mean? That's really what it is. It's like, how hot are you and what can you get from there? And then what kind of deal is it?

Is it like with Jay, he was always so entrepreneurial, and he always knew what he wanted, so he wanted to own things for the most part. So we were creating deals that had never been done. And he was really one of the first in music in particular, to start his own brands, et cetera. He's like, instead of making somebody else rich, I'm going to do it myself, you know? And we did that in a lot of different ways.

And way before Roc Nation, you know, when he was like, okay, let's really, like, hyper grow this idea of being kind of self sustaining company and all the parts, like, feed each other, you know? Yeah, well, and I just want to call out because, you know, the average listener, as much as we want to be a Beyonce or a Jay Z, right, we're probably never going to get there. But this is something that you can think about in your everyday life, especially if you're a business owner, is like, and this is part of what you and I are having conversations with offline, which is like, how can we expand the worth of our brand, the worth of our company in not just a very, like, obvious way, but where is. Where do you have influence? Where can you extend your brand past just your niche and think more strategically that way?

Tori Dunlap

And so I think that that's one great learning from you and your work is it's like, again, thinking strategically about, like, what can I own? How can I run this as opposed to giving money to somebody else? Exactly. Like, what are you doing on the side that you're paying somebody a lot of money to do that? You can do yourself, you know, totally.

Jennifer Justice

And make money on that. And it can be daunting. You know, you got to take it, like, one step at a time. But especially given, you know, digital, all the different ways you can expand your brand digitally and monetize those different things, all the different software, all the different AI that can. That can help you in that.

You know, you'd be remiss not to take advantage of that. We might not be able to talk about this because of NDA, and you can tell me we can cut it. But one of the things that I loved, and maybe you were still working with her at this time, but, like, the very famous story of Beyonce performing at Uber and Uber offering her a fee, and she was like, no, I'll take equity instead. Were you part of this deal? Do you remember hearing this?

No, I. No, I don't remember hearing it. But we had so probably, you know, so, no, I don't remember doing it, hearing it. We did at Roc Nation get to invest in Uber early on, though, and she might have done that right after that. Maybe that's what it was.

Tori Dunlap

It was something. Yeah, it was like, you know, one of those, like, now almost memes where, like, Beyonce performing and then the little, you know, information about her below. But I remember seeing this, like, six or seven years ago that it was like, you know, Uber called her and they were like, hey, perform at our annual party. And she was like, no, I'll take equity. And now the equity's worth, you know, 30 times what they were going to pay her.

And I was just like, that's the kind of business decision. Now, on the flip side, there's sometimes where taking equity in a company is not the smart move, right? Where it's not going to be worth anything. But, like, that is strategic thinking. Like, same thing with her, like, selling, like, keeping the rights to homecoming to be able to go sell them to Netflix, as opposed to.

I think Coachella just wanted the rights to her performance, and she was like, no, I'm going to keep them and I'm going to sell them for more money somewhere else. I think it's just really smart, that sort of. Yeah. Big picture kind of thinking. Yeah.

Jennifer Justice

And sometimes, look, it's you when you have the resources to do those kind of things. Right? Because if you say, you know what, I'm going to pay for the whole performance, and I will pay for the recording, I'll pay for the cameras, etcetera. So you can't own it anyway. That's another thing.

It's like, you're going to pay me and I'm going to use that money to pay for myself, and then I can get those things. You can do it in smaller ways, too. A lot of it comes up in books. It's like, do you want a self release, which is totally an option these days, and pay for everything yourself, or do you want somebody else to own all of your assets, including the title of your book, which could also be the title of your company, and all these different things that you have to think about? Same with a podcast who owns it.

At the end of the day, you. Know, that's something we're thinking about a lot. At her first edit k and one of the things that, like, to add to that is I am now thinking, like, when is a partnership going to not only, of course, financially make sense and, like, you know, we share the same mission and values, but also, like, at this point, a lot of things I could do myself. So I'm paying for convenience for somebody else to do them. If I'm bringing in a partner, it's like, okay, they can either.

Tori Dunlap

They should either be able to do it better than me, or I don't want to build that team to be able to do it right now, or, you know, I don't want to be. Have to, like, stress about that and worry about that. So that's the balance, or that's the, like, the decision grid that's in my head is it's like, is it worth it to bring it in house? So I can control it. And if it's not, then it has to either be, you know, a better move financially or more convenient of just not having to think about it.

So that's something that I'm thinking about a lot. Well, yeah, I think you have to also think it's like, is this really in line with my brand? Is it a complementary capability that I can help my business grow? Totally. Or, like, a lot of startups, for instance, think about bringing engineering teams in house and tech companies, right?

Jennifer Justice

If your main product is tech, that's one thing. If your main product's not tech, do you really need to house a tech company inside your company? You might have tech capabilities, and you can have an outside person with a CTO inside, but do you really need to pay overhead for an entire tech team for it? Probably not. You know, these are like, considerations that you have, like, one example to how to, you know, analyze who you should bring in house for good and who you should hire out.

Tori Dunlap

I can hear our audience already after, you know, talking to you for a bit, going, okay, at what point do I need a lawyer? Like, if I run a small business, when do I need someone on my side legally? Because I see people do one of two things, either wait way too long, which is something that I may have done, or the second thing is, like, get a lawyer, like, way too quickly. Like, I think a lot of people, like, have an idea and they immediately get a lawyer. And I'm like, I don't know if you need a lawyer 100% of the time at that junction.

So tell me, like, when is it. When does it make sense for a small business owner to bring someone on their side? And what are some things that you see business owners doing that could put them in hot water because they don't have an attorney. Right. You know, first you need, you need to start the company itself.

Jennifer Justice

Right. And you don't necessarily need to go to an attorney for that. You, you know, accountants can do that. You know, if you're doing a C Corp clerky can do that, legal zoom, you can start companies and other ways. And it's really, the decision is really more of a tax decision.

There's this, there's, you know, you can shield yourself from liabilities with any kind of corporation that you start or llc, but it's really kind of a tax situation that somebody on a tax side should weigh in. But when you should start having attorneys in particular, if you're look for, it's different from every kind of business. If there's a lot of regulation, et cetera. Obviously you need it sooner rather than later. But let's say it's a services business or, you know, a small kind of business like that.

You really need somebody anytime you need to reach an agreement with somebody that is longer than a few months, you know, and you're hiring them for some kind of services. You know, there's confidentiality agreements. You know, you want to make sure it's work for hire, that anything that they produce is yours and you own it. You know, is there, there's some kind of statement of work, like, what do you expect out of them? Like, let's sign that.

And, you know, the lawyer can, you know, some, obviously everybody gets really nervous about it because it could be expensive, but it's really money, a well spent because it's building the foundation, right? That's like the foundation of your company. If you don't have it, something like that, and something goes wrong, it can literally bury your entire company and bankrupt you. Right. And so you need those kinds of, that kind of like support and foundation and then doing the agreements.

There are instances where you can get forms from an attorney and then have just like the business deal terms as an exhibit, and you just negotiate those business deal terms. And if anybody wants to change anything to the form that's legal, that's when you loop in the lawyer. So it's not like they're drafting an agreement from scratch every time. So you pay a little more upfront to make sure you're protected in the end. And it just always shocks me when people are not hiring attorneys to do this.

It's like, if you can decipher what every single paragraph means, then okay, great. But 99.9% of the time you can't. You don't know what you're signing. You know, it's like an agreement. It's like a puzzle piece.

You know, you have to make sure it all fits with what you're doing. Yeah. For me, it was, I have a friend and a, like a colleague and a mentor who is an employment law attorney, and we were starting to hire more and more people. And she took a look at my website, and she's like, you need certain things here for hiring in Washington state, and you need to highlight these things. She's like, don't you have a lawyer?

Tori Dunlap

And I was like, no. Then she goes, you need a lawyer. And I was like, okay. And literally, that was the moment where it was like, okay, I need somebody because it was like, I need an employment law attorney. And we have a team that we still work with who's phenomenal here in Seattle that is largely in charge of, like.

Yeah. Drafting the contracts. And you also don't have to put somebody on retainer immediately. It makes sense now for us at the size we're at to have somebody on retainer, but, like, you don't have to pay a monthly retainer to a lawyer if you're still really small and you only need to. Your point, these like ad hoc kind of things.

Jennifer Justice

Yeah. But it's never going to. It's always going to help to get that stuff locked down, for sure. Totally. Yeah.

Unemployment law, of course. I mean, I represent a lot of c suite women. There's so many women that have come to me, like, I never negotiated my contract before. I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, people know your name.

You're like a CEO or CMO. Like, you know, it's like, you have to take care of this. So I do a lot of that kind of work, too. And, you know, the thing is, it's like, how's the company think that you're gonna protect them and represent them when you can't do it for yourself? You also have to think about that like, you're protecting something you're building.

You have to have that money. It's set aside for legal. You have to. And definitely if you're raising money. Yes.

Tori Dunlap

Oh, without a doubt. Yeah. It's part of your career. Yeah. If you're seeking vc, like, you need.

Jennifer Justice

You need an attorney, any money, angel, anything. Yeah, yeah, totally.

Tori Dunlap

We learned in our research, you are a single mom of two. You quit your job with no plan. Talk us through that process. Did you have any sort of net, or was this like jump and wait for the net to appear? No, I had some kind of net.

Jennifer Justice

Yeah. It's like, you know, it's so funny because I talk about this, like, scarcity mindset, but then I always, like, make big things with abundance. Like, my big moves are always, like, in an abundance mindset. And I had been with Jay for 17 years. I was really passionate about gender equality.

I really wanted to make a difference there. You know, I could do my job. You know, it was challenging, of course, and, you know, it was exciting, but I, you know, I kind of knew it with my eyes closed, and I was like, I wanted to challenge myself in a different way. And my kids were two and a half and they're talking and stuff. But, like, non communicative beings can read your energy, you know what I mean?

And it's like, I didn't want to. I wanted to know that every time I left them, I was super energized at what I was doing. And I wanted to have a boy and a girl, and I wanted to leave this world a much better place for her. Because the stats are, they're still dismal. They're so much better than they were.

I mean, not necessarily the stats of, like, what we're getting paid, et cetera, but the stats of how many of us are fed up and pissed off, that's amazing, because that means we can change things, right? And the amount of us building our own companies because we don't conform into a patriarchal kind of corporation or society in a working environment and doing it for ourselves. And what you're doing, what I've been doing, you know what I mean? All with the same mission and vision. It's like to empower us to always have the abundance mindset and make decisions because money, people say it doesn't buy happiness, but it does.

You're a lot happier when you have choices. Yep. It buys you choices. It buys you convenience, it buys you the headspace. So there's a lot of ways that it can help you in the world is going to be a much better place when women are making the same decision about their body because they can.

Because they have the financial wherewithal to do it. Yeah. I mean, everything you just said is like, yep, plus one on that. Yeah. And it provides you safety and stability.

Yeah, exactly. And back to that main point of, like, you know, I jumped without a net. No, I did have money, you know, and I did have 17 years of being with one of the most revered entertainers and entrepreneurs, you know, still, you know, in not only just the music industry, but, you know, just throughout business. And so I knew I wouldn't have a problem. And I never taken time off.

Ever since I was 14 years old, I had a job. I never even through law school, everything. And had the means to just sit back and chill. Not like I did that, though, unfortunately. But I took six months before I started the new job.

But I was so used to just working that I was just like, ugh. And about a month in, I was like, okay, I'm going to take transcendental meditation course. I'm gonna take a cooking course. I'm gonna start doing these things, you know what I mean? And not look for a job yet.

But, yeah, I did. I had that net. I had been working with an executive coach, too, who was, like, talking me through things and, like, what are you scared of what's the worst that's gonna happen? You can always get a job as a lawyer. You can get a job as a competitor.

You can do something that, like, it's not so sexy to you right now just to make you feel good until you're ready to do something sexier. I love what you just said, and I want to call it out because I think even when I asked the question and when our team, you know, built that question, I think of net as, like, specifically, like, financial security. Right. Or, like, immediate. Like, I know these force people that I can already, you know, work with, but I love that your version is also.

Tori Dunlap

I had years of experience. I had nearly two decades of experience doing this. Right? I have a network that I can reach out to. I, you know, I might not know the exact plan, but really what you're saying is, like, I bet on myself, like, I had the confidence that I had the credibility, and I have the experience to actually make this work, and that when I do have these moments of, oh, shit, I don't know what I'm doing, I actually will figure it out.

Like, I will use and rely on my previous experience and all of the hard work I've been doing to make this happen for myself. And I just really want to call that out because it's. It's how I wish more women took, quote unquote, risks, is. It's like, most of the things we deem risky are really not that scary. Like, because we doubt ourselves.

Jennifer Justice

Yeah. And I really give credit to my executive coach for that, you know, because she was like, why is you, like, when have you ever not, like, had a job or done really well? And I was like, oh, kind of, like, never, right? I was like, okay, like, you know, why am I putting these illnesses? When have you not figured it out?

You know, on myself? When have I not figured it out? And so while it was scary, it was scary, but at the same time, it was like, I made that decision like that and did it the next day. It was just, yeah, yeah, I needed to build, you know, I bet on myself, but, like, build something for me. You know, well, and to continue that kind of through line.

Tori Dunlap

One of the things that, you know, we met at a women's founders retreat, and you were really encouraging all of the women in the room to think strategically about building a business. Dreaming bigger when it came to partnerships. Why do you think so many women play small or smaller than they need to in entrepreneurship? I mean, look, we've been told our entire lives that we're not good enough. And we don't do it.

Jennifer Justice

And we look outside and go like, oh, women are always our bosses. You know what I mean? So it's in us, right? We're also, you know, some of these things we come about honestly. We're fed all this information, so we don't think that we deserve it, too.

Like, we're community driven by nature, too. And so it's like, okay, well, you know, we just want everybody to get along and do, you know, and don't want to rock the boat so much. And, you know, those two things combined can prevent you from really going big in the first place. And then, you know, it's all the other barriers, right, that are not our fault. But, you know, no one, you know, we don't get as much money.

You know, we don't, you know, people don't think are the problems that we're solving for as big as we know that they are because they're solving for us. You know what I mean? It's like, think about all the things that are going on with menopause. It's like every single woman is lucky if she gets to go through menopause because, I mean, she's lived to a certain age, right? And no one has ever talked about it until the last five, six years.

Tori Dunlap

It's crazy, right? I feel like there's so many of those things, like endometriosis, miscarriage, all the health stuff. Oh, all of these things that are somehow so common and yet so taboo. I mean, periods, right? Like, even that is, like, periods.

So much of it is. Is, like, so deeply impactful to women or people with uteruses on a day to day basis. And yet it's just like, nobody's talking about it or like, women are talking about it, but men are only starting to wake up to make, maybe we should work to solve this or help support people. Yeah, yeah. Crazy.

Jennifer Justice

Yeah. Wearing tampons that have not been, like, changed at all or not actually questioning what's in them. Like, for 100 years. I was just with a doctor who told us, you know, for a pap smear, the speculum was invented in roman times. It's never changed.

Tori Dunlap

I just saw that, too, because there was literally yesterday, there was, like, the first FDA trials of an at home. Yes. Pap smears. Like the ability to check yourself at home for. Yeah, do a pap smear at home.

And literally all the stats were like, 90% of people would rather do it at home. And I'm like, of course we would. It's so uncomfortable. Who was like, I can't wait to get up in there and get those stirrups, and. That's.

Right. So no one ever. Right? Oh, my God. Yeah.

Jennifer Justice

So all those things. And thank God, because people were like, wait. Yeah. Why can't I solve this issue? If not me, then who?

You know? Yeah. Yeah. We were talking, you know, about entrepreneurship, I imagine, and I know from both my personal experience and also talking with so many women that this is also c suite, exact level two of just, like, this doubting of our own confidence, this doubting of our own ability. And.

Tori Dunlap

I don't know. Tell me more about that of, like, even as you rise up the ranks and you get more successful, there's still doubt. Yeah. I don't know that that's ever going to stop. I thought that's human nature in and of itself, right?

Jennifer Justice

And so you can always hang. You know, I know that people are trying to get rid of this impossible syndrome and using, like, you know, using that term, and I get it, but, you know, it's. It's, you know, every day it's just like, oh, what am I doing? I mean, I've been. My company's almost five years old, and sometimes I'm like, God, am I really good, you know?

Should I be doing this? You know what I mean? Because you just, you know, everyone has these doubts. It's like, it could be anything. You just, like, didn't sleep well enough, you know, and be like, oh, I just had a bad call with a client.

Just like, oh, this is not for me. You know? And so I just think it's human nature, and you just accept it. And I think you really, instead of, like, beating yourself up over it, go, it's human nature. But I know that this is going to pass, and I'm going to turn it around.

And so that day, you have to cancel a few meetings because you're not going to be on. Then you cancel a few meetings and then make sure you're ready and that you're going to be on. And those times that ebb and flow, it might take a bit longer, but you'll get used to it, you know, and you'll build on those and just be really real with yourself, why you're thinking these things, you know, everyone knows that. One door shuts, another one opens. You know, we all know this.

We've all been through it. It's proven itself time and time again. And so, you know, to have that confidence, it's a. It's, you know, it's a conscious decision on a daily basis, you know? Yeah, I would love to talk about negotiating like a lawyer.

Tori Dunlap

So if I'm a small business owner and I am brokering deals, what does that process look like for you? Are you going to someone in your network? Are you cold pitching? And when you see somebody, like, lose a deal, what happened? What, what are the no no's to avoid?

Like, again, if I'm a small business owner trying to broker partnerships, what should I be doing? What should I not be doing? From your experience, if you're a small. Business doing partnerships, you really need to dig down and first do all the research. You need to think about what's really going to drive your business.

Jennifer Justice

Right. It's not just, oh, it's cool. It has to be, you want to captivate an audience that you do not yet have. You want to be able to utilize this partnership or sponsorship financially is great. But if there's also things that you can do in trade with them, you know, that helps you grow.

It's another way to think about it. Also, you want to make sure that you can grow, that they're going to do the things for you that will help propel the business. Right. If that's a person or influencer or celebrity partner or if that's like, you know, you getting a sponsorship from a major airline or whatever that is. And you also have to make sure you're playing in your space, right.

It's like if you don't have the visibility, then you can't go to, you know, Fortune 500 company, but you could go to a smaller company that's growing like you are and grow together and, you know, use each other for this. It's really, at the end of the day, it's got to benefit both parties. It can't just benefit you. You're going to be wasting a lot of time going after the things, people that do not benefit. You know, if you don't benefit them or they don't benefit you time and energy, because you're, you know, ultimately you're running your business day to day.

Like, this is an ancillary revenue stream. And do you have the mind share and the brain, you know, the brain capacity to do it and get it done? And then once you do get a deal, you also have to have the team to execute it. Like, you gotta be able to execute on it. Like, do you have the people to do the social media and to do the content capture and do the, you know, whatever it is that those deliverables are, you know, you have to make sure that those are, you are able to get that executed and done efficiently and right so you don't leave a bad taste in your partner's mouth.

Tori Dunlap

One of the things you just said that I think is so important to discuss because it was something I struggled with is I don't want to work for free because that's against women's rights and against me as a business owner and what I value and my time is valuable. But at the same time, you're just talking about a trade. And there have been times where, especially recently, I am more strategic of like, okay, I might speak at this event, you don't have the budget, but you're going to pay me in these other ways. And even again, even saying this, I cringe a little bit because it's like, there's only certain circumstances where this works. And especially I, it's so hard if you're a newbie business owner to figure out when is this a circumstance where I will get paid in connections, get paid in exposure?

But, like, when does it actually make sense to say, yep, I'm going to, you know, take this. Even if it's a trade versus, no, I need to get paid again, it. Has to ultimately do with what you're getting exposed to and what you're getting out of it. You know, what they have to offer and you have to make sure that it's real. You have to do the research and check under the hood and make sure that they're going to do those things.

Jennifer Justice

You know, it's, yes, it's not something you want to do every day, but there's a lot of people who cut off their nose despite their face because of it. And they want to get paid where it's just like, this could be massive. So why not do it? I mean, think of it like, going on like the Today show or Good Morning America. Like when I went on the Today show, like, I will always have been on the Today show.

Now, like, they don't pay you. You know what I mean? Oh, people don't realize that. Let's pause for a second. My mom literally asked me the other day, she's like, did they pay you to go on Good Morning America?

Tori Dunlap

And I go, no, people pay 30, 5100 thousand dollars to go on Good Morning America. I'm like, oh, no. And they don't pay for your flight out there typically either. So like, yeah, those kind of opportunities. Yeah, I want to be on today.

I want to be on GMA. I want to be on NBC News or whatever. And like, yeah, you get to save forever. I've appeared on the Today show, and, yeah, they're not paying you an appearance fee to be there. You should just be so lucky you get to be on the Today show at all.

Yeah, that's kind of the narrative. It's not, it's not like, you know, I'm using, like, an example like that to prove a point. Right. You know, it's got to be something that's really big and really benefit you. And another thing, if you're a product company and you can get your product in front of a bunch of people that are your audience and not normally your audience, and giving that away in gifting, I know so many people who are like, I'm not going to gift my stuff away.

Jennifer Justice

I was like, that is not the right move. Like you want, especially social media. You don't have to tell people you want to post it, but a lot of people will. And when everybody on your feed starts seeing the same thing, you're like, wait, what is that thing? Why don't I have it?

You know, there's a lot of opportunities in that. Totally. One of the, like, kind of fun questions that I have for you. I imagine you've worked with a lot of, let's call them big personalities, which you can find in any industry. How do you navigate relationships with big personalities?

Well, I think you have to ask yourself why there is a big personality in the first place. Right? Is it, was it based on insecurities? It based on, you know, the leverage is what's it based on and what you want the end result to be. Ultimately, what is your goal when you go in and you're talking to these people?

And you have to adjust from a negotiation standpoint, you have to adjust based on that. It's like, if this is my ultimate goal to get XYZ done, then I can't get my backup about certain things they say or, you know, like passive aggressive behavior, you know, taking things personally. Because ultimately, your goal is to get XYZ. It's not to freak out because they are, you know, they're yelling at you or they're, you know, talking negatively to you or whatever it is like, you gotta keep your eye on the prize and not be emotional in that particular, you know, point. It's like, and I don't, and I hate it when women are so emotional in business.

And it's okay, you know, it's like, it's, you know, men are passionate. Women are emotional. But when you, in these particular instances, dealing with big personalities, like, nothing is about you. You know what I mean? It's like they're not thinking of you.

So know that. And just go in and be like, you know, like the Michelle Obama when they go low, you go high kind of thing and just go in and get what you want out of it. Because ultimately, if you leave with that, you are going to be so much happier and successful, you're going to forget about all the other negative things or how hard it was or, you know, how much time you had to spend doing it because you got what you needed, you know? Right. All of them are different.

Every one of them is different. Well, and you talked about, like, yeah, not taking it personally. I don't know if you have any strategies for not doing that. Maybe it's just like viewing the work as work, but I think as someone personally who, like, cares very much about my work, it's very easy to take that. And she took it personally, the Michael Jordan mean, but, like, it's very easy to do that.

Tori Dunlap

So do you have any tips or strategies for just, like, making the work work? Yeah. I mean, one of the things I say all the time, like, when, you know, especially to women who, like, maybe they work at companies or they're, like, being told, like, well, we just don't really have the money, you know? And it's like, you take it personally. It's like, that's not your problem.

Jennifer Justice

That's their problem. Right. And every time that somebody is disrespecting you by not paying you enough or disrespecting you by not, like, taking you seriously or not giving you the deal that you want, you know, don't think about it. It's about you. It's like, it's taking time away from the thing that you care the most about.

For me, it's my two kids, and, like, I'll do anything for them. So I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna get. Take it personally about me. I'm gonna be like, you're now, like, like, you're now disrespecting my children, and I'm just gonna go and get the deal done because I don't care. You know what I mean?

And you just get much more cutthroat about it, which is really one of the best things you can do in a negotiation. Like, people want what they can't have, you know, it's like, no. You know, when you just say no to somebody or you're able to, like, put it and frame it in a different perspective to be like, yeah, that's not gonna work for me. People are like, wait, what? What did you just say?

You know? Or, yeah, I mean, maybe you can talk to other people like that, but you can't talk to me like that, so. Or maybe you're in a bad mood. Why don't we pick it up later? Like, you can say these things and people are like, wait, what did you just say to me?

And they get embarrassed, you know, and. It makes you appear more valuable, too. That's the thing that I wish women understood about negotiations, too, is like, if you say, yeah, that's not gonna work for me, here's what is. Or, yeah, we're. You take the control back in the situation.

Tori Dunlap

And there's also this moment where they're like, oh, shit. She has boundaries and she has standards and, like, she must be really good at her job if she's cultivated this level. Like, it makes them want you more. And on the off chance it doesn't, well, it's not a company that you want to work for anyway, so. Exactly.

Jennifer Justice

Exactly. Like, you're hitting these barriers and barriers and, you know, I've had clients, too. Like, oh, once I get in there, it's going to be fine. I'm like, no, no, no. The red flags are right here, right?

They're right in front of your face. Like, look at them. It's fine if you want to. If you want to still go in there. But all I'm asking is to look at those red flags and know that that's going to be the same when you're in there, you know, know that whoever you're dealing with, a deal shouldn't be that hard.

If it takes too long and it's too hard, it's probably not meant to be. It's no different than any other relationship in your life. You know, if that is, you know, your partner in life, it. If. If it's your boss, if it's anything, a friend, if it's difficult and you're just always like, oh, and anxious around it, it's probably not gonna work.

Tori Dunlap

Right. And you're gonna have difficult times. But if, yeah, the baseline is just like, this feels gross, or this feels hard all the time. Yeah. That's not a relationship worth keeping.

And I say that from personal experience. Yeah, it's not. It's like, yeah, and, you know, as you know and hope, you're gonna be on my podcast taking care of lady business. You know what the theme is? And I interview all women.

Jennifer Justice

Like entrepreneurs is the theme is that once you trust your intuition. It all feels right when you go against it. Every single one of them has said, when I went against it, something bad happened. And we're lucky as women to have that female intuition. We have that 6th sense.

It's like we know when things are not gonna work to our advantage. If you're watching on YouTube, you just saw my face, which was just like this nod, but like a very knowing nod because, yeah, I literally, to your point, I'm not kidding, every single time I did not listen to my gut, it came back to bite me in the ass every single time. So, yeah, yeah. Could not agree more.

Tori Dunlap

I wanted to transition into talking about you as an angel investor. I share that with you. It's a very exciting thing that I've started doing. But we have a lot of business owners who want to know from angel investors, what do you look for? Like, what do you look for in an entrepreneur?

What do you look for in a business before you invest? I think what I look for in an entrepreneur is somebody who's self aware, who knows what they are capable of and what they're not capable of. You know, it's like, I know that I can grow a business, but I know that I've never scaled something from like, you know, 5100 people to 10,000. Like that to me is so crazy. When you look at the Googles and things like who did that?

Jennifer Justice

And to know that there's a time when you probably is a good time toward you to step aside. You're still the owner, you're still the founder, but maybe you're not the best to be the CEO to grow to those next levels, right? And, or maybe you are the creative person and you started as a CEO, know when it's time to just do the creative like that, to me, somebody I will want to be in business with. You're a visionary and you want to grow something really big and you're determined to do it. And you got this far that you can go and ask people for money.

But I also want to know that you, you are aware of your limits, you know, as well, because not everybody can be everything, you know, you just can't. It's like, I'm not going to all of a sudden be a creative. I've been on the business side. I know how to marry art and commerce. I'm good at that.

But I'm not all of a sudden going to go be a chief, content or creative officer at my company because. That'S not what I do. You know what I mean, well, it. Sounds like a lack of ego, too. It's like, when do I need to give this up?

Tori Dunlap

Because that's one thing I see with entrepreneurs all the time. And something I've had to fight myself is it's like sometimes we just feel like, no, it's our business, so I should know how to do this. Or, like, I want the control over it. And, like, I think the smart move you can make is, to your point, figuring out, yeah, when do I need help from somebody else? Or when is it time to hand over the reins.

Yeah. Yeah. And not do all the jobs. Right. It's like, yeah, why are you doing the accounting when you're not an accountant?

Jennifer Justice

You know, you can hire somebody for $300 a month for that. And if you're not doing that or why, why are you trying to do all the legal stuff by yourself? Like, that's just like, not okay. You know, it's like, understand how to really grow is to hire the people who are expert. You know, you're going to be learning some on the job, but you shouldn't be learning whole new degrees on the job, you know, you should not like, I'm not.

I don't want to learn how to build a website, you know? Right. I will say, I think first couple of years you got to be scrappy. And then once you start. Yeah.

Tori Dunlap

Building a kind of business where you are seeking, like significant investment. Yeah. It's time to start investing, pun intended, in somebody else or in another service so that you're not handling all of that. You can do what you're actually good at. Yeah, exactly.

I would love to hear more about the Justice Department, which is your company and what you do as well as your podcast. Thank you. So the Justice Department is a business strategy, business development consulting company that works with female founders to help them grow and scale their business in areas of consumer, retail, tech, basically everything but like biotech and aerospace in all different companies. And what that means is that we help them for a period of time with a certain statement of work, get either more female investors on the cap table so they can grow and scale their business be and have these women that are like championing and cheerleading for the company, which is what we like to do. Right.

Jennifer Justice

We control all of the purchasing power in the house. So if we're invested in it, we're going to, you know, we're going to buy it and tell all our friends about it. I help them with business strategy from any kind of statement of work that has to do, obviously, in any kind of entertainment. The music industry partnerships. I just put together a big celebrity partnership with the menopause brand.

I helped Tarantini the class and doing all their music strategy because they're fitness, but, you know, music. Sansa, Larry in the background. I've helped apricot find all their retail partners. I've helped Westbourne get women on the cap table and get an SPV together and, you know, talk about their brand. I've helped Miss Grass, Yola, Miss Gal, like all these really great companies of women and like, you know, help them hyper kind of grow when they don't eat, like have a female and, you know, a co founder something.

It's like a pop up co founder from the business strategy, business development side, which is different. A lot of people look at the marketing and branding side of things, but this is like that. I even help them figure out the right attorneys to hire. Right. Because it's like, that's daunting.

And they think that they should hire some one big firm and the next thing you know, they're paying 30 grand a month and they don't need to pay 30 grand a month. You know, I'll tell you, you know, which, which trademark attorney to hire, which corporate attorney to hire and, and what you need acts as like a de facto general counsel. And then I also have the law firm where I still represent some talent and I represent and help them with all of their, you know, deals, sponsorship, endorsement part, you know, building businesses as well as a lot of female executives and helping them with their deals, you know, go on the way in and unfortunately on the way out. And a lot of female founded companies and kind of the stuff we were talking about earlier and, you know, their kind of independent contractor needs, etcetera. So it's all with the common vein of helping women get rich and helping them, you know, get more money.

So it's like I, you know, in case they are feeling like smaller or not worth it, I am here, as I've told one of my clients recently, she's like, I know you're not my therapist. And I was like, no, I have news for you. I'm your therapist. I'm your best friend. I'm your lawyer and executive coach all in one while I'm helping you with this deal because I'm going to get you out of your own way and get you way more money and you're going to get a big chat, you know, big invoice from me, but you're not going to feel it because I've gotten you so much more money, you.

Tori Dunlap

Know, which that is the vibe that is. That is. That is what we want always. Yeah. Yeah.

And tell me about your online course as well. Oh, yeah, and my podcast. And my online course. So. So the podcast is called taking care of lady business.

Jennifer Justice

And I started it because there's just so much, so many terms that need to be demystified and business. And what really was the catalyst to me is I was on a call. I was hired by a private equity company to help them navigate buying a publishing company in the music industry. And I was on this call, and they all kept talking about dry powder, dry powder. And thankfully, I was on call, and I could look it up.

I was like, what the hell is dry powder? And I'd look it up, and it just means extra money. And I was like, these are the terms that drive women crazy and intimidate us and make us feel like we don't know what we're doing. You know, and all this portraits, they. Weren'T talking about cocaine.

No, they weren't talking about cocaine. I know what that is. It's so stupid. It's like I've never heard of it. A little bit.

Tori Dunlap

See, I'm literally gonna open up a new tab. Dry powder. Yeah. Cash or marketable securities? Okay.

Jennifer Justice

Yeah, more cash. So I was like, you know what? I know all these amazing women in VC who started their company. You know, Karen Khan from I found women. Beth Ferrer is a big VC.

All of these women who've done all these amazing things, and, you know, what other women want to learn from other women. And so the whole point of the podcast is to, you know, get inspiration from them or hire them or get real tangible tips. You know, if you can see it, you can be it, you know, and really get down to, like, things they did well, things that they did not, you know, do well. So I completed my 100 episodes, and now we're just about to start recording in the next ten. And our friend Rebecca Minkoff with number 100.

So that was awesome. I've had Sally Krocheck on. I've had just Jenny just, you know, not Jennifer justice. Jenny Just and Jennifer, you know, one of the first female billionaires, you know, just really amazing women in all different aspects. And then, you know, so I knew that I was dealing with, like, and hitting a bunch of women that are probably 30 and above, right.

They were starting companies or, you know, they have big deals to do or, you know, unless they're talent. But, like, ultimately, I was like, you know what? Where we really are missing out, though is when you're first getting out of college and you get your first job offer, right? And like, how do you negotiate that and what does it entail? You know, it's no longer an hourly job.

It's like, and this is where we're missing out. And this is like that start is where it's really difficult to then recover from, in particular, if you stay at the same company for a very long period of time. Right. And so what are the components of that? You know, it's not just your salary.

It's not. And so, you know, there are other components to that that you can help grow and faster because I'm sure you talk about amortization on here all the time and amortized over a long period of time, you're missing out. If you're not negotiating not just your salary but the other deal terms that matter a lot, like, you know, your title, like equity, like bonus, et cetera, you're going to be way behind your coworkers and nobody cares if you negotiate your deal or not, right? If you don't, they're like, great, sign here. But you should try, you know what I mean?

And so this is the course of like talking about those different ways and different like, items and things that you should be negotiating that help you grow and then, you know, ways that you can move it forward. And it's called be the boss of your career. And so we'll launch it around March, April. I'm excited. Amazing.

Because I just have felt like that's a, like, that is an age range that I've been missing. And I really want to help with all of my experience of negotiating, negotiating thousands of employment agreements to help them see, you know, how they can do it by themselves until they can hire attorneys, which I definitely think they should be hiring, you know, if they're a VP or above. Right? For sure. And I will echo as someone who also teaches women, largely younger women, how to negotiate their salaries, you can negotiate.

Tori Dunlap

You've been told that you don't have a lot of power and that you just should be happy to have a job. You can negotiate your 1st, 2nd, 3rd jobs, etcetera. Like, don't feel like you can't. And it's also good practice. I also say that success in a negotiation doesn't mean you got what you wanted.

It meant that you tried and you prepared and you walked into the conversation as well prepared as you could be. That's success. So, yeah, I want to echo everything you just said. It is. It's always so important to negotiate, but especially earlier in your career.

Jennifer Justice

Yes, yes, for sure. Well, I am so thrilled to just have you on the show and to be able to share all of your resources. I just want to thank you for your time. All of those resources. We will link down in the show notes and yeah, what's your website?

Tori Dunlap

Where can people find all of your resources? So it is www.thejusticedept.com because believe it or not, that government agency called the Justice Department did not buy that domain name. And I got it on GoDaddy for $14.99. We love it, but you got it. Thank you so much for being here.

Jennifer Justice

Thank you.

Tori Dunlap

Thank you to JJ for joining us. You can listen to her podcast taking care of lady business, wherever you're listening right now. We appreciate you being here as always. Financial feminist thank you for your support of the show. You can subscribe, you can leave us a voicemail if you have questions, and you can share this episode with someone who you think would love it.

Thank you for your support of us and the financial feminist movement. I hope you have a kick ass week. Bye.

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153. Negotiating Your Worth with Jennifer Justice

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Episode Chapters

1: Introduction

2: Career Beginnings

3: Negotiation Strategies

4: Building a Business

5: Empowerment through Independence

Actionable Advice

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Transcript