152. The Cost of Infertility with Ali Prato (Infertile AF)

This episode delves into the emotional and financial challenges of infertility treatments, featuring insights from award-winning journalist and mama of two, Ali Prato.

1. Infertility affects a significant portion of the population, with emotional and financial costs often overlooked.
2. The science of IVF and other fertility treatments has advanced significantly, but access remains uneven and often expensive.
3. The psychological impact of infertility can strain relationships, highlighting the need for better support systems.
4. Ali Prato’s personal journey through infertility underscores the importance of community and open dialogue about this often-taboo subject.
5. The episode emphasizes the need for broader insurance coverage and societal support to help alleviate the burdens of infertility treatments.

1: Introduction to the Topic

Tori introduces the sensitive topic of infertility, providing a trigger warning due to the emotional content discussed. Ali Prato is introduced as the guest. Tori Dunlap: "A trigger warning right off the top. For this episode, we are discussing infertility, pregnancy and loss."

2: The Emotional and Financial Costs

Ali discusses the unpredictability of infertility and its costs, noting that hard work does not guarantee success in conception. Ali Prato: "Even if you have the best medical team and the best doctors, there's so many variables that can factor into getting pregnant."

3: Societal Pressures and Support Systems

The conversation shifts to societal pressures surrounding fertility, the importance of community, and the role of insurance in covering treatments. Ali Prato: "Infertility affects one in ten women in the United States and 9% of men."

4: Personal Journey Through IVF

Ali shares her personal struggle with secondary infertility, including her emotional experiences and the impact on her relationship. Ali Prato: "I've never been so sad and so depressed in my life."

5: Closing Thoughts

The episode wraps up with reflections on the need for better societal understanding and support for those facing infertility. Tori Dunlap: "It’s the loss, but it’s also the hope and then the loss and then the hope and then the loss."

1. Seek Professional Help: Consult fertility specialists early in your journey to understand your options.
2. Explore Insurance Options: Investigate whether your employer offers fertility treatment coverage or if it can be added.
3. Consider Psychological Support: Therapy can be crucial for coping with the emotional aspects of infertility.
4. Join Support Groups: Connect with communities like Fertility Rally to share experiences and gain support.
5. Advocate for Better Coverage: Work towards broader insurance and societal support for fertility treatments.

If you’re joining us today — it's National Infertility Awareness Week. For one in five people, building a family can be a challenging journey. In this episode of Financial Feminist, Tori tackles the deeply personal yet widely experienced topic of infertility, alongside Ali Prato, host of the top-ranked podcast "Infertile AF," co-founder of Fertility Rally and author of the children's book "Work of ART."

Ali bravely shares her own experience with secondary infertility, IUIs, IVF, and the emotional, physical, and financial burdens it brought. Together they discuss not only the science and stats, but also the real impact infertility has on relationships, mental health, and (of course) wallets. Join us as Ali sheds light on a topic that deserves open discussion.

People

Ali Prato

Companies

State Farm, Squarespace

Books

"Work of Art" by Ali Prato

Guest Name(s):

Ali Prato

Content Warnings:

Discussions of infertility, pregnancy loss, and emotional distress

Tori Dunlap

A trigger warning right off the top. For this episode, we are discussing infertility, pregnancy and loss. So if any of those will be a little difficult to hear, take a pass on this one. We'll see you next week. But I did all the things and you're taught all through growing up.

Ally Prado

If you work really hard at something and you apply yourself and you do the best that you can do, you will achieve success at some point. And, you know, like we said before, this isn't one of those places where that's always the case. You know, even if you have the best medical team and the best doctors, there's so many variables that can factor into getting pregnant and having a healthy pregnancy and having a healthy baby.

Tori Dunlap

Hi, financial feminists. Welcome back to the show. I'm so excited to see you. If you're an oldie but a goodie, welcome back and if you're new here, hi, my name is Tori. I am a money expert.

I'm a New York Times bestselling author. I'm the host of this show, which is the number one money podcast for women in the world. And we are a community of nearly 5 million million financial feminists. The millions keep growing and I'm so humbled and thankful for you all. Today's episode is a really, really great one.

And it's one of the most common topic requests we get, which is about IVF infertility, about the cost of those treatments, both emotional and financial. And so this was just a really, really great episode. Very informative and also for someone who is child free, there were a lot of things that I didn't know that I learned. So if you are someone who is trying to have a child, if is trying to pursue that, if you're like me and in your late twenties, early thirties, and you are thinking about potentially having children later, but you don't want to have them right now, and the freezing egg conversation has also come up. This is a really great episode and a really, really great guest.

So if you're listening to this on release day or release week, it is National Infertility Awareness Week. Infertility affects one in ten women in the United States and 9% of men. So we wanted to bring on a guest to talk about infertility, IVF, egg freezing and more. Ally Prado is an award winning journalist and mama of two who went through secondary infertility, which we'll talk about what that means iuis, IVF, depression, grief and relationship issues. She's the host of Infertile AF, the number one infertility podcast, the co founder of Fertility Rally and the author of Work of Art, a new children's book about IVF and assisted reproductive technology.

This episode isn't just the science talk side we really drove into, like the emotional financial cost of IVF and fertility as a whole. And I'm so grateful to Allie, as always, with our guests who come on and are just so vulnerable and are willing to share and shed light on a topic that often isn't discussed and has a lot of taboo. So without further ado, let's get into it.

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Where are you based? Just outside of Manhattan. How long does it take you to get in Manhattan? 30 minutes on the train. Oh, easy.

Okay. Yeah, super quick. I lived in Brooklyn for 18 years, and we just moved out to the burbs. It's been a couple years now, but I still feel very new to this world. Yeah, what neighborhood?

In Brooklyn? I was in Williamsburg. Yeah. Yeah. My business partner and my just moved out of Williamsburg for the first time in, like, ten years.

And he's having. He's excited, but also, like, an identity crisis of, like, oh, my God, totally. I'm not in Williamsburg anymore. What does that mean? Well, everyone's like, what do you miss?

Ally Prado

And I'm like, well, there's nothing cool about the Jersey suburbs. And, like, Brooklyn is pretty much the coolest place ever, so, like, there's no cool people. But, you know, I've got two kids. Now, and you're like, I don't miss the price. Everything else I miss.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I lived in bed Stuy for two months, and then I was actually just back in that apartment. I always wanted to live in New York, but didn't know if I wanted to commit to doing it full time. Where are you, Tori?

Tori Dunlap

I'm in Seattle. So the goal is to be bi coastal eventually, but, yeah, financially, that is. I've picked two expensive places to want to be bi coastal. Yeah. So, yeah, it is.

Ally Prado

Here's my dog putting her paw on my shoulder. Oh, what kind of dog? She's a rescue. She's like a. Hi, baby.

Tori Dunlap

What's her name? Her name is sweet baby Ray. Sweet baby Ray. She's not going to be able to hear me because there's no headphones yet, but hello. She's like, uh, I love dogs.

That's the other thing is I really want to get my own dog, but that's a conversation for their time. We're so excited to have you on the show. Thank you for having me. I just. I love that there's a dog in our mix too.

That weirdly just comforts me, just knowing. Yes, you know, she's half a world away, but I just love it. That's right. Before we launch into questions, I want to level set us with some terms that we're probably going to talk about in this conversation for people who might not be familiar. Okay, so IVF, like art, like, give me the quick and dirty.

Like, here's what these things are. Here's what the difference is, et cetera. So IVF is, it stands for in vitro fertilization. So that is part of the world of art, which stands for assisted reproductive technology. It basically means if you need a medical intervention to help you get pregnant and have a baby, um, you go down the art world.

Ally Prado

IVF is probably one of the most common ways to do it, and that literally means that an egg and a sperm meet up in, like, a petri dish, form an embryo, and then the embryo is implanted into a uterus, either your own or, if you're using a surrogate, the surrogates uterus. So that's IVF. And it's so funny because this morning I actually interviewed somebody for my podcast in fertile f, and she's the first woman who was born through IVF in the US, Elizabeth Carr. And she was born in 1981. Wow.

So it's actually not that old of a technology. You know, it's only 40 something years old. It's still really new in the world of medicine. But a lot has changed in the past four decades. And we were talking about, God, what's going to happen in the next four decades?

I can only imagine how many things will change and progress, because it really is very different now than it was then when she was born. They call them test tube babies, and it was a very big, groundbreaking medical technique. That's IVF and art. There's also IUI, which is intrauterine insemination, which is kind of when you use a catheter, I believe, or some sort of something to basically put sperm up into the woman's uterus. So it's kind of like, it's not as in depth as IVF, but it's another way that people can get pregnant, you know, under the assisted reproductive technology umbrella.

So those are kind of the basics. But I always say, like, I'm not a doctor. Please take it with a grain. If you have any real questions about. This stuff, definitely talk to, like, a medical professional.

I mean, I'm in this world, but I definitely get things wrong as well, because there's a lot of terms and there's a lot of acronyms and things. Totally. I was thinking of, if you've ever seen Jane the virgin, that's what ends up happening to the main character. I actually haven't seen Jane the virgin. Should I watch that?

Tori Dunlap

It's a great show. I highly recommend. Justin Baldoni, who is one of the stars of it, is actually a friend of mine. He's been on the show. But, yeah, it's a great.

It's a great show. Yeah. She is a, you know, someone who is waiting till marriage to have to have sex, and she gets accidentally artificially inseminated. Okay, cool. I didn't know that was the premise of it.

Ally Prado

All right. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great show. It's streaming on Netflix.

Tori Dunlap

It's like telenovela, but for american audiences, so it's. Yeah, it's really, really fun. After Vanderpump rules, I will put that in my list. Perfect. But, yeah, that's what happens to her is what we would define as IUI.

And, yeah, it's completely accidental. Anyway, great show. You experienced secondary infertility? I did. Tell me what this is.

Tell me a bit about your journey. And is the fertility space something you were aware of before experiencing this? Yeah. No. Okay.

Ally Prado

Yes. So many questions. Um, I'll take it one by one. So, yes, secondary infertility. I didn't even know what that was.

I'd never heard of it. I actually didn't even get, like, diagnosed with that ever, technically, while I was going through it. I didn't even know that that was what it was called until afterwards. So just to put it in, like, very easy to understand terms, I had my daughter without any sort of medical intervention. I hate to say the word natural, because it makes it seem like anything else is like, quote unquote unnatural.

But I had her unassisted, you know, with just good old fashioned banging, you know, my husband. So I got pregnant with my daughter. Had a fairly uneventful pregnancy with her. I did have her, however, when I gave birth, I was 35, so. And the reason that that number is notable is because that's kind of the point in the medical world, you know, in the fertility world, where things start to kind of go downhill as a woman, you know, egg quality wise and other things, I didn't know anything about this, and we talk about this on my show a lot.

And just in this community in general, too, is the lack of education that we all had growing up. You never really learned, actually, how hard it is to get pregnant. It was always kind of the opposite. It's very easy to get pregnant. If you don't use protection, you're going to get pregnant.

Be careful, be careful, be careful. It was almost like a scared straight, you know, like, education that we all got. And a friend of mine the other day was talking about how we're like the banana condom generation, because it seems like everybody who grew up in, like, the eighties, nineties, even early two thousands, you know, and had, like, sex education in school, it was just like, you learned how to put a condom on a banana, and that was kind of it. So point being, when I, you know, had my daughter when I was 35, and then we didn't start to try for baby number two for a couple years after that, so, like, two to three years after that. And then it was like, oh, this isn't happening.

And I had, you know, four miscarriages, kind of back to back. And I was like, what is going on? And I had been looking at, you know, kind of like Hollywood or just, like, mainstream and thinking, oh, you can have a baby anytime you want. You know, Halle Berry just had a baby, and she's in her forties, or Janet Jackson, you know, who's like, late forties, early fifties, or whatever it was. I really didn't know anything about.

Like I said, egg quality starting to decrease as you got older, that you're born with all the eggs you'll ever have, like, all these things. I didn't know any of that stuff. So it was all a very rude awakening when I realized that, oh, it's very different trying to get pregnant when you're 33, 34 than when you are, you know, 38, 39 even. So that's when I realized that I did have secondary infertility. So my.

My issue was specific to my egg quality. So I had, like, a healthy egg reserve. Like, I had a lot of eggs, but not a lot of them were healthy. So what was happening? And again, this is, like, layman's terms.

The way that my doctor explained it to me was that the reason I was having miscarriages is because they weren't healthy chromosomally, chromosomally normal embryos, so they were unhealthy embryos that I was getting pregnant with, and then my body was rejecting them. So that's why I had four miscarriages. And that's when I found myself in this world of one. Miscarriage I felt like was very, very common. A lot of friends that I had had a miscarriage.

So I kind of almost thought it was like a rite of passage to was still like, okay. But then when I had my third and my fourth, I was like, all right, I need to see a doctor. So I went and I found a reproductive endocrinologist who I ended up working with, who was my doctor, and he was the one who gave me the workup and did all the tests and told me, you're actually a perfect candidate for IVF, because once you're pregnant with a health, healthy embryo, you should be okay because you've already had a healthy pregnancy, and you don't really have a problem getting pregnant per se. It's just, we need to find that healthy egg and match it with the sperm. So that's what we did.

Tori Dunlap

What was that? If you're willing to discuss, what was that like emotionally for you? Like, I imagine that had to be so challenging. And also, I think just in general, I've talked to women who, friends of mine or women in our community who have trouble getting pregnant, and even though, you know, it's not my fault, it feels like your fault. Yeah.

So what was going on for you then? It was terrible. I've never been so sad and so depressed in my life. You know, I personally, for me, it was like, when you want to have a baby and you can't, it is just the saddest thing. You know, I was having.

Ally Prado

I've been very vocal about, you know, my journey and everything I went through. You know, my husband and I started having problems. We weren't on the same page after a while because this went on over, you know, a handful of years that we were trying to have baby number two. And I wanted to keep going and keep going and keep going, but it's expensive, and it takes a toll on your relationship, and it takes a toll on your body and, you know, hormonally, and there's so many different things that you go through. It was terrible.

And, you know, at the time. So my son, spoiler alert, I did have a son through IVF, but, you know, at the time that I was trying to have him, this is now ten years ago, and the landscape was very different. There weren't a lot of people talking about, you know, assisted reproductive technology, IVF. Like I said in Hollywood, it was like, oh, my God, she had a baby and she's older. And that's, you know, nobody was really being forthcoming about what was happening behind the scenes.

There weren't a lot of podcasts. There certainly wasn't Instagram at the time. So I didn't have a community. You know, Facebook existed, but I couldn't find my people. You know, I went on there looking for groups because I'm a very community, community oriented person, and I couldn't find a Facebook group that I could relate to.

You know, I just wanted somebody to talk to. And like I said, I had friends who had had a miscarriage or maybe two, but there was nobody that was going through what I was going through, which was, like, recurrent pregnancy loss and just complete depression. I mean, I was in a very dark, emotional place, so I did start going to therapy. You know, my husband and I, at one point, we were like, are we going to make it? And I was like, I don't know, like, we were just at such different mental places in our minds.

And it was really hard and really, really dark time. One of the previous guests we've had, and also a friend of mine, Jenna Kutcher, had a miscarriage journey where it just felt like could not get pregnant. Really wanted it. And one of the things that I think I've talked about with her and she shared, but also just in general, is it's the loss, but it's also the hope and then the loss and then the hope and then the loss. So you start getting excited, but then after the first time, it's almost like, I can't get excited, excited now.

Tori Dunlap

I can't enjoy that period of time where it's like, oh, my gosh, we get to plan and we get to have this because, you know, you have to hit a certain week threshold and then, oh, maybe even after that week threshold, something could happen. So I imagine that that was one of the hardest parts, too. Was the, like, true, just like back and forth, back and forth, and then not being able to, like, get your hopes up. I mean, this is very trivial kind of example, but it's almost like you, you know, you're looking forward to something and you don't even get the process of looking forward to it because you're worried that something might happen. Absolutely.

Ally Prado

You know, we always talk about how infertility robs you of so much. It does rob you of that joy, that, that unabated excitement. And because when you're going through this and especially if you have recurrent loss or whatever it may be, you're used to getting bad news, you're used to being on the wrong side of the statistics. You're used to the other shoe dropping. So even, you know, every time I would become pregnant, it was always like, I don't think this one's going to work out.

Like, I just. It's. It was hard, like you said, to get excited about it because it's scary and you don't want to become so vulnerable that you get super excited and then you're let down again and heartbroken again and devastated again. I, of course, have to ask you, and you mentioned it before, the thing I always think of with IVF or any of these treatments is how goddamn exciting, expensive they are. So talk to me about the financial burdens of fertility treatments and just what somebody's option is.

Tori Dunlap

You know, if, yes, they can pay for it or if they're going through multiple rounds or what happens if you can't? What happens if you can't afford it? A lot of people can't. Yeah. And, you know, that's the sad reality of this, is that it is so fucking expensive.

Ally Prado

And some people have insurance. More people. In the last five years since I've been in this world and doing the podcast and had fertility rally in my community and talking to more people, companies are becoming wiser, and especially the bigger companies, they're offering fertility coverage, or people are advocating to get coverage at their place of employment, which is awesome. So I would say more. More now than ever, people are being covered by insurance, but that still does not even make a dent in the number of people who aren't personally.

We had zero insurance coverage for this, which is just such a shame, because when you think about infertility, it's a. It's a diagnosis. It's not like a choice. You know what I mean? Like, if you do IVF, you're not doing it because you want to.

You're doing it because you have to. You know, so it's. It's not like an elective thing for 99.9% of the people. So for us specifically, I can. I'll be totally forthcoming about the finances.

It's like, you know, $30 to $40,000 per round, all in. And that, you know, includes the meds. So, like, you have to do. For anybody that doesn't know this world, you have to do. It's kind of like a cycle.

You. You know, you do. You take medication leading up to what will be your egg retrieval. So you're, like, stimulating your body. You're growing follicles, and so that you can get to a point where the doctor will come in and pull eggs out of your body, literally.

And you take all these hormones and things to amp up that process. Those meds are most off. For me, none of it was covered by insurance. I think it was $5,000 for the meds alone. And funny story, my meds got lost in the mail.

And everything is timed. You have to, you know, do everything on this timed cycle. You know, there's a calendar once you start going down the IVF route, and it's like, you have to do this met, you know, start this met on this date, and then do this, and then you do your trigger shot, and then there's the retrieval, and then there's the transfer, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. My meds, you know, we paid the $5,000, and then they were like. They were delivered.

And we lived in a condo in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. And I was like, no, they fucking weren't because they're not outside and they're like, well, maybe your neighbor picked them up by accident. And I was like, um, this is a huge problem because I need to start these meds tomorrow morning. And I remember, I'm laughing about it now, but I was, like, having, like, a full blown panic attack. Like, breathing.

Had to breathe in, like, a paper bag. Like, I'm gonna faint. Like, I was like, oh, my God, what do we do? Like, I need to start this medication tomorrow and it's nowhere to be found. And I remember, like, literally we went door to door on our street and we lived in, you know, a con, like a walk up.

So we were like, went to every apartment in our building. Did you get this package? Did you get. No. Everybody said no.

My husband was going, like, on one side of the street and I was going on the other side of the street. So it's just like a cardboard box. That they, like, left at the front door. And thank God, at the very, very last minute, we never found it ourselves. But a guy that lived about a block and a half down rang our doorbell at like, midnight that night.

And he's like, does Ali Prado live here? We have a package for you. And it was the meds. And I, like, jumped into his arms. Like, he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

But I was like, you don't understand. Like, so that's, you know, that's one piece of it. Just like these meds. It's crazy. They're so expensive.

Then on top of that, you know, there's other things that go into it. You get this long sheet and it's almost like my husband equated it to like going to like a used car dealership or like a car dealership because they're like, well, if you want this, you know, this package, you have to go this route. If you want to add on genetic testing, it's 5000 more dollars. If you want to do this, it's that, you know, so it's just. Just, it's overwhelming.

And I remember thinking like, yeah, of course we want to do genetic testing. Which means that once you've made embryos, they send them off for testing to make sure that they're chromosomally normal, which was our problem. So I was like, if we can find a normal embryo and have that transferred, we should be okay. But it was, again, it was $5,000 out of pocket. And I was like, well, we're only doing this one time, so what's another five grand?

You know, you start to think in those terms, but it's wild, you know, it's. We actually had to borrow money from both of our parents to do that round because we didn't have it out of pocket, you know, and unfortunately, like I said, like, not everybody can do this. There's a lot of people that can't even go down the IVF road because they just can't afford it, and it sucks. What are the other financial considerations beyond just the cost of fertility treatments? Like, are there other things in addition that somebody who hasn't embarked on this journey might not even think about?

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things that you can do to kind of like, supplement treatment, I guess you could say. So, like acupuncture, you know, over the counter stuff. Like I was doing. I was so desperate at one point that I was, like, buying, like, all the, like, woo woo teas. And I remember I went down to Chinatown and bought these herbs that, like, literally tasted like shit, but you'd, like, put them in water and stir them up, and I would just, like, choke it down and things like that that aren't 100% necessary.

But, like, you know, if you're going through this, you get to a point. A lot of people get to a point where you're just like, I'll do whatever it takes. So all that stuff, you know, really adds up. Acupuncture, some people do, like, infrared, like, therapy, you know, there's lots of different things that you can kind of add on. And then actual therapy, too, like, talking to a therapist as well, was one of the big expenses because I did.

I had to talk to a therapist to get through what I was going through. Otherwise, I was like, felt like I was going to go insane.

Tori Dunlap

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I am a child free person. I don't know if I want children. I am trying to ask this question in a way that is not insensitive. There is a moment where. Is there a certain moment where this does become a sunk cost fallacy, where it's like, I have put so much into this, and if you've gone through multiple rounds, you're like, I just have to keep going because we've come so far.

Is. Is there. Is that part of the feeling of, like, we've invested so much time and so much money, and I want this so badly that I just have to keep going? I think for some people, certainly, I mean, for us, it was like we had to put a cap on it, you know? Um.

Right, right. Well, that's what I'm thinking, is I'm like, you know, of course I. I have not had the both biological and emotional urge to have a child, and maybe I never will. But I'm looking at, of course, the price of this the emotional toll not only on you, but on your relationship with probably the most important person in your life, your partner, the, you know, the. The hormones back and forth, the swinging, the hope, the despair.

The hope, the despair. Like, I don't know. Like, if I was in that, I can imagine part of me just being like, how long are we going to do this for? But then the other part of me, like, knuckling down and being like, you know what? This has to work.

Ally Prado

Yeah, I think I've definitely talked to people from both sides of that, and, you know, I'm. There is a child free after infertility community that's very strong. A lot of people, you know, full of a lot of really awesome people that have walked away from treatment. I never want to say the word give up or, like, quit or anything like that because I think that is a negative connotations I always say pivoted. Right.

Tori Dunlap

Right. That's almost with a question I'm asking. Right. Is it does feel like I can't give up. And it's like, yeah, it's not your fault.

It's not like you are trying something and you give up because, like, you. You lost at it. And again, I'm putting lost in the biggest air quotes possible. It's just like, it's not working and that's not your fault. Yeah.

I appreciate you highlighting that. That's the really, like, sorry to keep saying, saying, like, dropping f bomb. That's like, the fucked up thing about this. Right? It is one of those things.

Ally Prado

One of the few things in life where the effort does not equate to the outcome. Yes. You can do all the things. You can throw hundreds of thousands of. Dollars at this and do them correctly and again, correctly, in quotes.

Tori Dunlap

I have a very, very good friend. Who has spent over $500,000 trying to have a baby and no baby yet. And they've done, you know, multiple rounds. They've gone the surrogacy route. They've had a few failed surrogacy experiences.

Ally Prado

They've, you know, done all the things they've traveled. You know, travel actually is another expense that a lot of people incur when they're going through this, because you might be going to a specialist who's in a different city, you know, you might be going to a reproductive immunologist who is in New York and you live in Virginia. You know, so you've got to travel back and forth or you find a clinic that's in California, but you're in Florida and, you know, you fly to visit them. That's another really big expense of this whole thing that people don't think about. Some people do IVF abroad because it's cheaper in certain circumstances.

Some people get their meds. I have a friend who got her meds from Turkey, the country, and was like, I don't know if this is legit, but it's a fraction of the cost as it is in the states. So I'm going to give it a whirl. You know, things like that. There's almost like a wild west aspect to it to a certain degree.

Like, you can spend hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars going down this road. And like I said, there's no guarantee. There's no guarantee that it's. You're going to walk away with a baby at the end of it, which is really devastating. That's so hard.

Tori Dunlap

I'm sure you've heard the podcast, the retrieval. Yeah, I have, yes. I actually started listening to it, and then I got scared. It's still real? Oh, you know, I imagine it's pretty fucking triggering, triggering subject if you've been through it.

Ally Prado

Even though, like I said, my son is now eight years old, my IVF son, you know, and I'm in this world every day and talking to people every day, it's. It's still. Certain things trigger me. And I started to listen to that, and then I was like, I can't, so I will. I'll go back to it.

Nothing against, I've heard it's wonderful and really well done, but it's just like, do I want to spend my time on that, or do I want to, like, watch Vanderpump rules? Like, it's a little. No, truly. So to give context to listeners, if they haven't heard it, it's this incredible serial New York Times podcast about, I think, dozens of women who went to Yale's fertility for fertility clinic, and there was a fertility nurse who was stealing the pain reducing drugs, or the, what do you call it? The anesthesia, basically.

Tori Dunlap

So they were getting, you know, their egg retrievals done with absolutely no pain meds like saline. And it was a larger conversation about women's pain and about, like, the lengths women were willing to go to have a baby because, you know, I put this money in. I put this time in. Okay, I'm just, again, going to do this. That was the other thing I wanted to talk about with this is it's like just the amount of pain that women in general, anything related to healthcare that we are expected to do, whether that is you know, an IUD.

The fact that, you know, we're just told, take ibuprofen, suck it up, and that women's pain is not believed. And I think with something like IVF, it's just like, well, you want a baby so bad, so what are you gonna do? Yes. I don't know. Thoughts about that.

Like, I think it's. It's ludicrous. I agree. And I think as women, you know, we've been brought up to think, suck it up. You know, I have so many friends that I've talked to who had really, really painful periods all through growing up, and it ended up being diagnosed later as endometriosis or something in that realm.

Ally Prado

But all through growing up, it was like, oh, you just have a heavy period or just take this cramp medicine or just stay home from school today, you know, things like that, where it was, like, ignored or not validated. And that's scary, you know, but now I think people like talking about it like this. At least people will know, and hopefully the generations coming after us, that's not normal. You're not supposed to bleed for 15 days in a row. You're not supposed to be unable to get out of bed because your cramps are so bad.

That's a sign that something's wrong. And I think for so many decades, even women have been told, just take some motrin and put a hot water bottle on your stomach. It hasn't been taken seriously. And continue to go out and pick up your kids and preserve. Totally do all fading and do everything that you're supposed to do.

Tori Dunlap

100%. Yeah, 100%. We were talking about the financial cost. And one thing I wanted to highlight before we move on is we found in our research, which is so obvious, significant discrepancies between women when it came to access to care, right, from race to income levels. And it seems like fertility treatments, to your point earlier, because they're so expensive, are.

Are really reserved for those who have, one, access to facilities, and two, the income to cover it. Like, have you noticed this in your community? Yeah, I think so. You know, you wish that it was more across the board and that everybody had access. Equitable.

Ally Prado

Yes, absolutely. And it's not. You know, I've. I've talked to a lot of people who have said, you know, this is, oh, IVF, that's for, like, rich white people, you know, something like that, which isn't obviously the case, but I get it. I mean, that's, you know, that's a perception because it is so expensive.

And a lot of people don't have coverage. You know, I feel like that's a whole other episode that we could talk about in the black maternal health crisis and the lack of equitable medical care and all that devastating stuff that that's going on as well. You know, it really sucks. Yeah. And we've done a lot of research and discussion on the show of, like, yeah, the racial gap between just the care that, I mean, everything, the care, the pay, the treatment of women of color compared to white women.

Tori Dunlap

And also just the access to. Yeah. Good care and the access to even this option. Right. Like we were talking about before, sometimes this just isn't even an option because it's like, I can't afford it.

I don't either have health insurance or my health insurance won't cover it or my employer won't pay for it. So this is annoying. Absolutely. And then, like, we were talking about before, too, like, putting a cap on it, you know, some people, and this is what we did, we were like, we can only afford one round. You know, if it hadn't have worked right, and it wouldn't have happened with my son, we would be done and we would have just had our daughter and it would have been okay.

Ally Prado

But, you know, we had to put a cap on it because we weren't. We're like, we can't just keep going and going and going. We found in a lot of our research that there's a lot of morality based opinions around fertility and reproductive health. Like, we've seen this on a large scale with, like, abortion rights, but, like, the stigmas surrounding, like, fertility treatments. It depends on your upbringing, I think.

And what people feel is quote unquote accepted, I guess you could say, you know, there's certain cultures where it's very. People don't talk about this. You know, it's very hush hush and it's very taboo. And as women, you're supposed to be fertile and you're supposed to be, you know, you're supposed to reproduce. That's your job.

And if you don't, something's wrong with you. So people don't, you know, people feel stigmatized and ashamed when they find themselves not being able to have babies or able to reproduce. So, you know, I think we have a long way to go for this to be widely accepted when you were. Talking about this, like, lack of community. But we know from our research that you're taking a shot, a fertility shot in the Los Angeles gas station, and you're, like, seeing other women there.

Tori Dunlap

So, like, there's other things that are going on, like people. This is happening to people, but there's not discussion about it. I mean, more now, of course, than there used to be. But, like, again, it has to be an isolating experience where you're like, I feel like that's just me. And all of these struggles are happening, but there's other people out there.

It's happening, too. Oh, absolutely. Totally. And people, you know, there's stories of people going into, like, the fertility clinic and wearing, like, a baseball hat and slumping down in their seat because God forbid you run into somebody that you know. You know, like, no, things like that.

Ally Prado

I think. Not so much anymore. So the shame. Is it, like, shame of not being able to get pregnant? I think that some people feel that way.

I never felt shame personally. But, you know, like I said, I think it depends on your culture and your family life and your upbringing. You know, people do tend to feel broken, like something's wrong with them. And I think that a lot of that is, like, a societal thing, too, where, like, what do you mean, you can't have a baby? Like, just relax.

Just go on vacation. You'll be fine. You know, it's. People don't understand, I think, unless they're, like, in this world or they know somebody that's been through it specifically, just how hurtful some of those comments can be, you know? Yeah, yeah.

Tori Dunlap

Well, and I think the other thing you were saying with morality is this, like. Like we were talking about before, this lack of control. It's like, you can do everything right, but, like, still, sometimes, you know, their circumstances are different. And, like, you know, the whole bad things happen to good people, good things happen to bad people. Like, it kind of feels like that.

And I think you had spoken about that before, and I would love. Yeah. To hear your thoughts of, like, yeah, there becomes this certain level where you're just like, well, I'm doing everything right and it's still not working. So. Yes, absolutely.

Ally Prado

That was a thing that I had to personally try to wrap my head around was like, you know, I equated it to, like, studying as hard. This is such a lame example, but studying as hard as you can for a test and still getting an f, it's like, but I did all the things. And you're taught all through growing up, if you work really hard at something and you apply yourself and you do the best that you can do, you will achieve success at some point. And like we said before, this isn't one of those places where that's always the case. Even if you have the best medical team and the best doctors, sometimes the doctors, too, will be like, we're human.

We're trying. We don't know. We don't know the answer because there's so many variables that can factor into getting pregnant and having a healthy pregnancy and having a healthy baby. That was one of the things that, when you said bad things happen to good people, that was one of the things that my therapist and I talked about a lot was because there is a point where I was like, why is this happening to me? I'm a good person.

Like, you know, I volunteer and I vote, and I'm, like, kind to people and I lift up other women, you know? And that was just like, you start to feel kind of sorry for yourself. Or at least I did, because I was like, why is this happening to me? Like, and one of the hardest things that we haven't touched on yet, along the same lines, is when you're trying to have a baby and you see all these other people getting pregnant seemingly very easily, or your friends are getting pregnant, and so you have. You're happy for them, but you're so sad for yourself.

And that's, like, kind of a mind fuck, too, because it's like, my God, I remember I threw a baby shower for one of my best friends, you know, while I was going through infertility. And it was. Of course, I was thrilled for her, but it was so hard to do that, you know? And I, like, went in the bathroom and cried at one point because I was just like, ugh, this sucks. Oh, it's the ultimate version of, yeah, my friend got to do this thing, and I really wanted it.

Tori Dunlap

It's the ultimate version of that. Yeah, she got the promotion, and I worked really hard, and I didn't get totally. Or, like, I have to be happy for her, but also. Yeah. Or seeing this woman on the subway that was.

Ally Prado

Seemed so young and had, like, five little kids and was like, I remember she, like, hit one of them. And, I mean, it wasn't, like, full on abuse or anything like that, don't get me wrong. But it was just like. And I remember thinking, oh, my God, can I have one of them? You know?

Like, how do you get to have five kids? You know, you start to look at other people and you're like, it's not fair. It's just not fair. And that was one of, you know, going back to what I was saying with the therapist. My therapist was like, you have to understand, like, bad things happen to good people.

It's not. This isn't happening because you're a bad person, but good things happen to bad people, too. And it's like my mom always used to say, life's not fair, and it's not. Yeah. You were talking about the kind of marital emotional strain it put not just on you, but on your relationship with your partner.

Tori Dunlap

And the research that we found that just kind of just hit me right where it hurt was that, like, 50% of women say that their battle with infertility was, like, the worst thing they've ever had to experience or the worst part of their life. And we know that fertility treatment that doesn't work, couples that go through that are three times more likely to divorce or to end their partnerships. So I want to first talk about, like, the not so happy part, which is like, can we talk about the strain that is put on couples and put on a relationship during that time? And can we also talk about either personally or in your community, has there been things that have been able to bring couples either closer together or at least to lessen the strain that they're feeling? Yeah.

Ally Prado

So starting with just the strain in general, you know, I can speak from my personal experience. It was, again, it was just, like, after a certain point, and it was going on, you know, miscarriage after miscarriage, and I was feeling so depressed. And my husband, you know, he. He's an only child of two. Only children, and I love only children.

Nothing against only children. And if we would have just had my daughter, like I said, it would have been okay. We would have been okay. But I just felt like our family was not complete, and at a certain point, we kind of splintered off, and he was like, I'm done. Why are we doing this?

We don't. We have a terrible sex life? Because that's another thing. Like, when you're going through fertility treatments, anything that was the least bit sexy. It'S not organic or spontaneous.

It's like sweat. There's so much pressure that, you know, you're sweating. I mean, it's not cute. So I can tell, like, a pretty graphic story, but I won't. But I just remember this one time, and it was just like, oh, my God, that was, like, the worst.

Tori Dunlap

If you want your welcome, this is a safe place to do it. But, like, lack of being able to perform because there's so much pressure, and I'm like, just, you know. Yeah. I was like, oh, my God. I'm like the devil.

Yeah. Fun thing that's supposed to bring a couple together, which is like, finding you attractive and having sex with you and using it to bond emotionally, is now the most high stakes tightrope walk totally. Of your entire life, every single time. Absolutely. Stakes are so high, they couldn't be any higher.

Ally Prado

And the pressure is intense, and it's just. It's awful. Cause we paid all this money, and we have this exact moment. Yeah. And, you know, that for us, that was one of the points where it was just like, I remember my husband's like, why are we doing this?

And I looked at him, and I remember saying, I wish I didn't want this so badly. I wish I could tell you, okay, we're done. We'll stop. But I couldn't. I couldn't do it.

And I remember thinking, I have to go with my heart and my gut on this one. Like, I just. I'm getting, like, emotional talking about it. Cause I, like, it all comes back to the surface. It was such a hard time for us, you know, I just.

I was like, I wish I didn't want this so badly. I wish I could tell you I'm with you. We're done. But I couldn't do that. And that was really hard because, like, I knew I was kind of ruining our relationship by being so focused on this when he wasn't.

And that's not to say he didn't want the second baby. It was just like, he didn't have that guttural urge and that, like, I'm going to die if we don't have a second kid feeling that I had. So I think that's a lot of times, the disconnect with couples is the desire and how much will you give and how far will you go? And it's hard to be on the same page as somebody. I remember thinking he was like, this is so expensive.

And I was like, how can you put a price on a human life? And I get it from both sides. I do understand what he was saying. It's ridiculously expensive. But it was also, like, I would have paid $14 million if I had it.

You know what I mean? So that's. Yeah, that's. That's the hard part.

You know, the second part of your question I don't know the answer to, like, what can bring help couples get through this? I do know that, you know, fertility rally community that I co founded, we do couples groups every once in a while, and that's always really great to just keep people talking about it and to just see that there's other couples, too. That are going through it. I think a lot of this struggle is just feeling alone. So when you realize, oh, we're not alone, or we've got some of the same concerns, it does help you kind of navigate it, even to just know there's somebody else out there that's going through a similar situation.

So I think communication is huge, but I feel like either this is one of those situations where it can really bring you together or it can really draw you apart and there's really no gray area. It's that. It's that intense. It's almost like also raising a kid. Right.

Tori Dunlap

On the flip side, we sometimes see parents, you know, or they're closer together after, and sometimes they're further apart. Can I talk to you about egg freezing? Can we answer questions about that? Cool. Okay.

On the flip side, I don't know. If I'll be able to. I hope I can answer them all. I'll try. It's just, I want to highlight that because I think a lot of the times we're talking about couples.

On the flip side, I have a lot of friends who are either starting to freeze their eggs, thinking about freezing their eggs because most of them have not found somebody to spend the rest of their lives with and to have children with. But they're like, I want this option later. So maybe talk to me about that process. And that's another one that I think is expensive, is very physically, emotionally draining. So just maybe talk me through that process and, yeah, what somebody has to think about before they embark.

Ally Prado

Yeah. So, so many good questions. So egg freezing is, you know, just the. The basics would be, you know, when you go in and you basically go through the protocol, you know, you take the meds that you would be doing leading up to a retrieval, but you're not going to go any further than that. So, like, the first part of IVF is, you know, the egg retrieval.

The second part is when you transfer the embryo. So this is everything up to after the retrieval. So basically, you know, you'll. You'll go through that, you'll do the egg retrieval, and then they will literally freeze your eggs. And, you know, you can do this.

A lot of people do it now. There's so many great companies, too. Speaking of finances, that will do, will cover this now for people, which is awesome. You know, one of the benefits that people will have in, like, a larger workplace sometimes is giving, you know, coverage of this. But a lot of people do it now thinking, I don't know if I'm ever going to use these eggs.

But it's kind of like a good insurance policy to have because as far as I know, and again, like, fact check me. But, you know, you. They can stay frozen in indefinitely. You know, like, I think the thawing process can sometimes be a little bit tricky, and they're still trying to figure that out. And it's come a long way since it was first invented, and it's getting better and better and better, you know, as new technology is developed and things.

But, you know, people will go and freeze their eggs and then, like I said, never use them, or maybe they will later in life. So, yeah, I mean, that's, you know, I think that it's a great option for people to have, and I love the fact that people are doing it more and more and taking matters into their own hands because I think a lot of the infertility stuff, you feel so out of control, and a lot of stuff is not in your control. So anything you can do to maintain that control is always a good thing. And also, the younger you are, the healthier your eggs will be. So people might be freezing their eggs in their twenties now and, you know, might not use them till later in life, but the theory and the notion and the science behind it is that, you know, if you're younger and you freeze your eggs, it's better than if you're an old lady like me.

Tori Dunlap

Now, I would love to also talk about, like, the price of that. Right? You mentioned IVF is 30 to 40 ish. Like, what is the price of trying to freeze your eggs? So it's significantly cheaper, you know, so basically the process would be, like, you go in for, like, an assessment, and then you meet with a doctor and talk about, you know, everything that they did in your workup.

Ally Prado

And then you do, like, the monitoring where you get hormone injections to stimulate your ovaries, and then you do the retrieval like we talked about, and then they will store the eggs. Now, you know, like I said before, the notion is that as you age, as a woman ages, the percentage of abnormal eggs increases. So that's why people are doing it when they're young and they're healthy. I mean, prices obviously can range, but, you know, like, take a Manhattan Clinic that's known for their egg freezing, for example. It's about $8,000, I would say, for the egg freezing cycle.

And then, you know, the storage, from what I've heard, is anywhere between, you know, six to $800 per year. And then you'll get the call, like, you know, your year's about to exp. You still want to keep them, and you have to, like, pay that fee every year. You can also do embryo freezing, which is, you know, making an actual embryo, sperm and egg. But some people will do just eggs because they're like, I don't want to be tied to a certain guy.

Like, you know, I want that autonomy, or I want to be able to do what I want to do with it. So. So I think it's. It's less rare to do embryo freezing if you're not, like, in a couple, I guess, relationship or committed relationship. But, yeah, that's kind of the gist with egg freezing.

But, you know, it's. It's definitely more affordable. I think insurance sometimes does cover it as well. A lot of places offer financing, too. Um, but I think it's.

It's a great. It's a very cool option. And had I known about it. Cause again, I really didn't learn anything about this until later. I probably would have done it, you know, like, just.

Just to have that kind of. In your back pocket. Well, I want to clarify. You said it's basically the first part. Like, you still have to go and retrieve the eggs.

Tori Dunlap

You still have to do your shots. You still have to do all of that, because I'm literally my mom. She was like, I don't think egg freezing is the same. I don't think you have to retrieve your eggs. And I'm like, no, you 100% do.

So she will be getting a phone call after we're done recording. Yes, I talked to an expert today. It's still a retrieval. Yeah. And the retrieval, too.

Ally Prado

Just so you know. It's very quick. You know, it's probably, like 15 or 20 minutes. It's not like a huge, huge thing. And you're under, like, mild sedation.

You're not, like, totally put under unless. You'Re at the Yale clinic. I probably can say that you're still going to be mad, but speaking of the retrievals. Exactly. But, you know, it's done vaginally.

It's not like they cut. There's no stitches. You can go back to work the next day. You know, it's a very. Some people will even say the retrieval is kind of, like, anticlimactic.

Like, it's just like, oh, that was it. You know, but it depends, obviously, what happens and how many they get and all that stuff. Well, and you're giving yourself the shots and everything up to that point. Right. So it's like, it's.

Tori Dunlap

How long is it? Is it weeks? Is it months? Like, how long is it going for? I think it's.

Ally Prado

It depends on what. Like, the protocol that you're being given is. Which is kind of like the monitoring, but I would say anywhere between, like, maybe eight and twelve days on average. Oh, from, like, shots to retrieval. Yeah.

Tori Dunlap

Oh, shit. Okay, maybe I've just heard. Cause again, I've had friends do it, I think, armchair expert. They do a podcast called synced about it. And so maybe they just did multiple rounds of it.

Cause I remember, I think, yeah, if. You'Re talking about Monica from. And Liz is a friend of mine, and I was like, what? How long are you doing? I think that was maybe multiple rounds.

Ally Prado

Some people do back to back rounds to get, you know, you do one round, you do a retrieval, and then you go your next cycle, you do it again. There's, like, a lot of different routes you can go down, but just for one. Yeah, it's like eight to twelve. That's much more accessible than I thought it was. I thought this was months.

Tori Dunlap

Okay, cool. Now I'm at the point where I'm. Asking, well, keep me post shit. Let me know. I don't know if I'll do it again.

This is a larger conversation of, like, I don't know if I want children. I'm also 29, so it's like, I have, I think, a couple more years of, like, totally, again, same thing. I'm doing the natural, but then that. Yeah, everything else seems like an insult to call it not natural, but, yeah. Like, I think more years of flexibility.

Before things start getting sticky. Definitely. And, you know, I always like to say, too, like, I have so much respect for people that are like, you know what? I don't want to have kids. Because I think that's a hard decision to make.

Ally Prado

You know, societally, it's just kind of expected. You know, one of my very best friends decided they didn't want to have kids. And we talk about this a lot, and, you know, I'm like, bravo to you for not doing it just because you felt like you should. You know, like, it's. I think it's a very amazing thing if that's the path that, you know, you choose to go down as well.

Tori Dunlap

I have to end us on. I don't know. I just feel like I'm asking you questions, and it's like, yes, we get a kid out of it, which is what we want. But also there's so much trauma. So, like, talk to me about, like, the beauty of IVF, or talk to me about the beauty of fertility treatments of, like, yes, you get the thing at the end, ideally, that you really want, like, I don't know.

And that's on a happy note of, like, how are these, like, great, great things that. Great options for us? I don't know. Just. Just give me the rainbows, butterflies.

Because, like, I don't want to talk about an hour of, like, how depressing it is. Yeah, no, I mean, it's obviously when it happens and it goes the way that you want it to go, it's amazing. I wrote this book called work of art about IVf. It's a children's book, and it's about me telling my son the way that he was born. And that's the whole theme of the book, is, like, isn't science fucking amazing?

Ally Prado

Isn't medicine cool? You were born in such a cool way, and you were so wanted that we did x, y, and z to get you. And, you know, I talk about secondary infertility, too, because that's a tricky subject. You know, some people think, God, you're being selfish. You already have a kid.

Why are you putting yourself through this? Why are you doing it again? And for me, the way that I try to explain it and the way I explain it in the book was, like, I love being my daughter's mom so much that it made me want to do it again, if that makes any sense. Like, I wasn't coming from a place of greed. I was coming from a place of love.

Like, being a mom is my favorite thing. So that's why I wanted to do it. Have the whole experience again another time, all the way through. So, you know, there's. Ivf is.

It's insanely amazing. I mean, I can't. Like, we were talking about the beginning. I can't believe it's only 40 years old. I can't, like, wait to see what happens in the next couple of decades and, you know, what they come up with and what's invented.

But, you know, there's so many people that wouldn't be on this earth if it wasn't for IVF, including my son. And, you know, it still gets me choked up because I still can't believe it worked. I can't believe he's here. I can't believe all the things had to line up correctly for it to. To give us our second kid.

And I say that to him every single day, every night. I still can't believe you're here. And now that he's older, he always goes, mom, I'm always going, to be here, which is sweet. So, yeah, it's. It's.

Tori Dunlap

It's, uh. Yeah, it's. Thank God for science and medicine and magic, too, because the universe definitely has its part, too. You know, it all has to come together. I think there's.

Ally Prado

There's not just one thing. It's like it's all those things combined. And now that I'm crying. Allie, thank you for being here. Tell us about your podcast.

Tori Dunlap

Tell us where people can find more about your work and your community. Where can people go, oh, my God. This flew by. Tori, you're. Thank you so much for having me.

Ally Prado

People can listen to my podcast, which is on all the platforms. It's called infertile Af. It's. Every week there's a different person's family building story. It doesn't always end with a baby.

Some of them are funny. Some of them are heartbreaking. You know, it's kind of. My whole thing is just telling diverse family building stories with various endings. I talk to same sex couples, single parents by choice or solo parents by choice, I should say.

And, you know, I talk to everybody that wants to talk to me, basically, because I feel like all the stories are important. Cause there's somebody out there that needs to hear that so they don't feel alone. I also have fertility rally, which is a community where we do virtual support groups for anybody that's going through infertility. And it's just been a lifeline for me and hundreds of people. It's the place I wish I had when I was going through it.

And then I have this book, too, which is called work of Art. And people can find it on my website, which is infertile afgroup.com, comma infertile afgroup. It's self published. It's really cute. It's very sweet.

And it's. Again, it's just another resource for people to normalize these conversations and realize that it's okay to talk about this stuff. Oh, and I'm also on Instagram. If people want to reach out to me on Instagram, infertile stories is my Instagram, and my DM's are open. If anybody has questions or needs anything, I am here because I know when you're in the depths of this, of.

It's so fucking hard. So I just want to help people who are coming behind me and make it suck less. Yeah. Thank you for your service heart and your vulnerability and. Yeah, just thank you for everything.

Tori Dunlap

Appreciate it. Oh, my God. I love talking to you. Thank you so much to Allie. For joining us on this episode.

Such a powerful one, and a really good one to share with any friends who are experiencing infertility, priority pregnancy loss, IVF, the journey of all of that, and we just thank her for being here. You can subscribe to infertile AF, which is her podcast, wherever you're listening right now. As always, financial feminist thanks for being here. If you haven't already subscribe to the show, you can click the plus button or the subscribe button wherever you're listening right now. It is free for you and it allows you to get new episodes directly to your feed so you don't have to search financial feminist every time you want to listen.

I say this often, but the podcast is expensive for us to produce but free for you to listen, and subscribing is the easiest way to support, so we appreciate it. Thanks as always for being here. We'll talk to you soon. Bye bye.

Thank you for listening to financial feminist a her first hundred k podcast, financial feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Produced by Kristen Fields, associate producer Tamisha Grant Research by Arielle Johnson Audio and video engineering by Alyssa Medjool Marketing and operations by Karina Patel, Amanda Lafue, Elizabeth McCumber, Masha Bachmakebeth Taylor, Cho, Kaelyn Sprinkle, Sasha Bonar, Claire Coronan, Daryl Ann Engman, and Janelle Reasoner. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen. Sound a huge thanks to the entire her first hundred k team and community for supporting this show. For more information about financial feminist, her 1st 100K, our guests and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com dot.

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